Open 211: Tit for Tat v.2 -- Game Over!

[flinter]

hello Kyle and Looker. I'm happy to see you!

and I have read my role pm.

[flinter]

@Looker: you are mean. And you know that even when my role pm says you are scum, I think you are town!

LoL i don't think i have ever had two votes on me right away in RVS ^_^ Neat

are you a Jester?

Or are you scum laughing away the votes on you? "votes are funny, haha

haha

haha

"

FoS Wolf

Slaxx is towny for checking what the deadline is (he is paying attention)

I think the wolfwagon is big enough for now, as early wagons tend to fail, just because they are early wagons.

[flinter]

Looker, I didn't do it on purpose. And I'm still ashamed of it.

and you are a boy, right?

And kiku, I'm no bitch, please don't vote me!

[flinter]

vote: Flinter

Last game with him he accidentally didn't read his role PM. And still ended up beating me.

I'm a she.

And I had read it, I just forgot. And it showed that I'm a bit inexperienced as town, as I couldn't find any scum, so it proved pretty well I'm am not such a good player.

But that doesn't stop me from having fun!

[flinter]

@jmj, why are you wary of the wolf wagon then, eh?

Slaxx is towny for checking what the deadline is (he is paying attention)

I think the wolfwagon is big enough for now, as early wagons tend to fail, just because they are early wagons.

1. Why is" paying attention" a towntell?
2. What's with the FoS. Do you think wolf's reaction is suss or is it a random-FoS? (in which case don't be weak and vote!)

paying attention = being busy with the game in a positive way. Finding things out, learning things. Scum is doing the opposite, and someone who is really sharp right from the start of the game is in my opinion more likely to be town.

and it is a serious FoS, which is not a vote for the reasons in that post. People are going to abandon the wagon purely because it was RVS-wagon. While it might be on a correct person. It is in our advantage if that wagon doesn't get too big for the information we have now.

[flinter]

Actually, The1fifi, do you have any of your own input?

Leaf. This is overaggressive. On page two, this argument makes no sense. Would you please calm a bit down?

and it is a serious FoS, which is not a vote for the reasons in that post. People are going to abandon the wagon purely because it was RVS-wagon. While it might be on a correct person. It is in our advantage if that wagon doesn't get too big for the information we have now.

Huh? Just because someone's had a wagon against them in RVS doesn't mean they won't be lynched later on. I'm also not sure why you dislike the idea of a wagon "too big for the information we have now" - if you think he's scummy, don't you want to pressure him?

no. He already reacted to the votes by laughing about them. There is nothing that makes me think more pressure would give more information. And making the wagon disproportionally big would scare townies of it (completely reasonable, of course).

@budja: I am wary of the wolf wagon because to me he hasn't done anything scummy yet. If he starts giving me scum vibes, then I won't be so wary of that wagon and might join it actually.

Yeah, this is scummy. It's about the most neutral thing you can possibly post. When compressed (using vague and off-the-point language is also a scumtell, incidentally) it reads:

"I don't want to join the bandwagon because I don't think he's scum. But if I start to think he's scum I'll join the bandwagon"

To be honest, this doesn't really answer Budja's question, and it seems to go against the general feel of the post he referred to. Your original post felt more "He looks scummy but I'm not ready to vote yet", while this one is more "I'm not voting him because I don't think he's scum".

As soon as you find the need to reword his message, you know your argument is not good. You are twisting his words, to make your point clear. The post by jmj is quite normal.

Correct me if I am wrong leaf, but does that or does that not say "whay are you wary of the wolf wagon?" Now I may be wrong, but I believe I answered that. I told him why I am wary of the wagon (I don't believe right now wolf is scum) and stated that I would be wary of that wagon until wolf does something that is scummy to me.

Again, this is my exact problem.

You're

strongly

implying you will jump on the wagon at some point, and that wolf will do something scummy

, and yet you do not think he is scum. What makes you think he'll do something scummy? Why are you waiting for him to slip up? This is ridiculously over cautious and defensive.

[/quote]LEAF. again. jmj has said that if wolf does something scummy, he will vote him. There is no implying, certainly no ''strong implying'' and there is no expectation in that post.

You prolly couldn't find scum cuz u were scum. Kinda like Leaf and Slaxx...except for the fact they are scum as opposed to were, which can't necessarily be denied either so they're definitely the lynch for today.

Lazy scum is lazy. You could at least

pretend

to be town.

Ok, now you are becoming scum.

post 69 shows fifi is likely town, certainly not scum with Leaf.

Correct me if I am wrong leaf, but does that or does that not say "whay are you wary of the wolf wagon?" Now I may be wrong, but I believe I answered that. I told him why I am wary of the wagon (I don't believe right now wolf is scum) and stated that I would be wary of that wagon until wolf does something that is scummy to me.

Again, this is my exact problem. You're strongly implying you will jump on the wagon at some point, and that wolf will do something scummy, and yet you do not think he is scum. What makes you think he'll do something scummy? Why are you waiting for him to slip up? This is ridiculously over cautious and defensive.

I don't think so. It looks like you are misreping.

I don't think so. It looks like you are misreping.

In future please do not answer questions aimed at your partners.

Leaf. That wasn't an answer, fifi gives an opinion. And it seems you can't take criticism.

I would've thought it was inferrable from the rest of my posts. Oh well, the accusations I'm making against The1fifi are:

- Repeated refusal or failure to answer questions/ address points - flippant responses instead of answers
- No content when posting
- Accuses me of "misrepping" someone else without providing any explanation

So basically the first two are kind of irrelevant considering it's like page four, and the last one is something that you personally have something against him and isn't really anything scummy.

I'm going to like you. I like how you analyse arguments



I am really surprised by the attacks on fifi because he/she hasn't given enough content. A. for 4 pages, I disagree. B. I, Izzy, kikuchiyo have all done less. C such accusations are not constructive on page 4( ! )

vote Leaf

. mostly for the "you could at least pretend to look town", actually. That really doesn't look town to me.

[flinter]

@budja: I am wary of the wolf wagon because to me he hasn't done anything scummy yet. If he starts giving me scum vibes, then I won't be so wary of that wagon and might join it actually.

JMJ, i'm going to "translate" your statement. I hope you don't mind.

"currently I don't understand why people consider Wolf scummy. That he has so many votes for no real reason that I can see, makes me wary about this wagon. If Wolf is going to act scummy, I'm going to vote him."

please show me where I'm wrong, and how you can ever make this scummy, Leaf.

no. He already reacted to the votes by laughing about them. There is nothing that makes me think more pressure would give more information. And making the wagon disproportionally big would scare townies of it (completely reasonable, of course).

No, I don't understand what you mean here. A towny shouldn't

really

be affected by the number of people already voting someone. Surely you should try and convince people it's a correct wagon rather than accept an RVS wagon breaking down?

He was affected. He clearly was, seen his out of the normal reaction to it. That is exactly the point!

LEAF. again. jmj has said that if wolf does something scummy, he will vote him. There is no implying, certainly no ''strong implying'' and there is no expectation in that post.

So why does he even say it? And more importantly, why does he take a whole paragraph to say it? Why couldn't he just say "I haven't got a read on wolf yet" instead?

why did you use a picture in stead of simply using text for it? no idea. Does it make you scum? didn't think so. But thank you you just admitted you did read too much in JMJ's post. This was a strawman.

vote Leaf. mostly for the "you could at least pretend to look town", actually. That really doesn't look town to me.

Would you mind explaining how? It's just another way of saying "this is very scummy" for me :/.

it seems so, doesn't it? But it isn't. I'll try to explain it:

I think I see this as a scumtell because this is an insulting statement (if the player is scum). Because practically every human is a bit careful with insults, and certainly in a game that is not yet really serious (in the heat of an argument slight insults are used), a statement like this is hard to make.

But if you know the person it town, this all doesn't apply. It isn't an insult when said to a towny. Making that scum would use it more often.

[flinter]

*Yawn*

So is it Leaf or Looker?

On second thought, this is a horrible question.

unvote
vote flinter

Looker, this is not what we agreed on in our quicktopic. You would mislynch people and I would look like I was scumhunting.

[flinter]

the analogy was there to show that something you don't understand (why did he do that), doesn't have to mean he is scum.

to the important point: why did you say that JMJ strongly implied that he was going to vote Wolf? You already admitted that you read too much in JMJ's post, now I would like to know why you are town.


About Wolf: laughing when having some votes on them, is a reaction. A reaction very little players give. The motive for this reaction:

A, he is telling the truth
B, he is scum who knows nothing is really wrong, but that his reaction could matter very much, and he doesn't want to slip. He overthinks the situation, and comes with this. A post a townies don't make very often, but which seems to be townie: he isn't worried by votes, he must be town, right?

no. Wolf is an experienced player, he knows the RVS, and he wouldn't be worried anyway. Why does he want to show us that he isn't worried?

[flinter]

I dislike the idea of a Hewitt wagon. He's just a nice guy who says what he thinks, and I admire that in such a game. It makes him easier to read.

Now the real scum:

unvote vote Wolframnhart

. Sorry, but lurking isn't going to help you.

[flinter]

I dislike the idea of a Hewitt wagon. He's just a nice guy who says what he thinks, and I admire that in such a game. It makes him easier to read.

Now the real scum:

unvote vote Wolframnhart

. Sorry, but lurking isn't going to help you.

Riiggghhhttt Cuz me posting Monday compared to those not posting is SO lurking. And Kiku and Looker voting you without any real reason stated is SO much more townie. Try again.

oh, wolf. You shouldn't point fingers away from you. It is not very polite.

Look at this post. You don't have the intention to find scum.


I don't know Kiku yet, but Looker likes to play this way, I think. I don't think it is very scummy. You however, are scum.

[flinter]

yes, I have. And are you making fun of me?

Wolf, from an experienced player as you are, I expected more then a reactive playstyle, and some defense of Fifi. I don't think you would play this way as town.

And you are doing it again. "Look at kiku and looker", and now "look at the people who haven't posted!". Not having posted is better then posting only to defend/buddy up to one player, and pointing fingers to others when you are attacked, without any intention to find scum yourself.

[flinter]

yes, I have. And are you making fun of me?

Wolf, from an experienced player as you are, I expected more then a reactive playstyle, and some defense of Fifi. I don't think you would play this way as town.

And you are doing it again. "Look at kiku and looker", and now "look at the people who haven't posted!". Not having posted is better then posting only to defend/buddy up to one player, and pointing fingers to others when you are attacked, without any intention to find scum yourself.

No I am simply pointing out that your post is not scum hunting. And yes I say look at kiku and looker, not because I believe them to be scummy, but you didn't even acknowledge their votes against you. As far at the people that haven't posted I believe it is perfectly fine to ask why you ignore them, or why you pick me out to call a "lurker." I only defended fifi because I didn't get leaf's case agaisnt him, I thought it was (and still think it was) made of fluff with no real substance.

I am pretty sure I made a reaction on Lookers vote. But I'm waiting for Kiku to say something more. Further, there really isn't much to defend. And maybe lurker was the wrong word, but I think you are scum. And you haven't really been trying to find scum.

You are basing your opinions on me based off of how you think i should play, which is silly. I have never played with you in memory and regardless of "experience" every player can have a good or bad start or good or bad game no matter what the alignment. As it is you don't know kiku yet as you said, but you are willing to overlook her play just fine, but say that I should be playing differently. Absolutely no sense is being made in your case against me.

You again make the argument that I should look at others, how scummy they are. But they aren't, yet. You are scummy. And in stead of defending yourself, you start to point fingers at others, wolf. And I'm sorry, but that isn't how townies should play. And you being an experienced towny should know that.

What reinforces my idea that you are only using Looker and Kiku as a way to defend yourself, is that you only started talking about them when I voted you again, and you haven't voted them, while you are pointing fingers at them.

I'm sorry wolf, but this way, my vote is going to stay here. This has nothing to do with good games, or bad games. You're scum this game.

[flinter]

I already said i don't believe kiku or looker or looker to be scummy, so why would I vote them? I am saying that you are basing your vote on me for how you say i should play, but are clearly ready to overlook others that you have not played with before. And I am defending myself just fine, you are tunneling on crap reasons. What I do and don't know as a towns person has no effect on this game, Looker and Kiku are examples, I am not saying at all you should be voting for them, i am pointing out that you are ignoring votes on you with the expection of Looker where you said:

Looker, this is not what we agreed on in our quicktopic. You would mislynch people and I would look like I was scumhunting.

Do I think this is scum joking with a partner? No. Do i think you are scum? Not at this time. I think you are just badly mistaken on very much fluff reasoning. The only thing that stands out to me right now is you keep telling me I am not playing how townies should play, which is making me wonder if you are more informed then the rest of us.

please, could you stay polite? I would appreciate it.

My reasons on you are mostly the feelings I get when I see you play. I try to explain them, but that doesn't always work too well.

I know looker likes to vote randomly to see what reaction he gets. I wouldn't want to disappoint him But I have no idea what kiku wants, so I'll wait there.

but wolf, why are you constantly pointing at others, and why aren't you voting them. And why do you feel the need to end your post, almost OMGUSy? Because saying that some way of playing is not towny, is a way of explaining why that person must be scum.

[flinter]

mod, wolframnhart is not a selfvoting doublevoter, I hope?

I'm sorry, that was a stupid joke.

All fixed. Thanks!

[flinter]

Secondly - flinter is scum. I have little doubt of this now. Not only did he unvote his primary suspicion to vote for a lurker less than a page after he said such accusations were "not constructive", but he also buddied hewitt several times.

a few questions. Where did you get you were my primary suspicion? Second, why do you have the idea that "lurking" (I really shouldn't have used that word) is the main thing why I have my vote on wolf?

I dislike the idea of a Hewitt wagon. He's just a nice guy who says what he thinks, and I admire that in such a game. It makes him easier to read.

What the hell is this. You don't know he's posting what he thinks until he flips his alignment. Nor do I see how you could've marked him as "nice" at this stage. You also refuse to comment on his actual alignment, merely suggesting you will be able to read him later, but making no attempt to do so.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I like the way he thinks, and how he expresses his thoughts. I find myself to be agreeing with him, and this is for me one of the most effective towntells.

And then there's something else that bothers me about flinter. Take a look at this.

oh, wolf. You shouldn't point fingers away from you. It is not very polite.

Look at this post. You don't have the intention to find scum.


I don't know Kiku yet, but Looker likes to play this way, I think. I don't think it is very scummy. You however, are scum.

It's a statement in certain terms, but it feels like an extremely passive accusation. He just says wolf isn't trying to find scum (without elaborating) and then says that he is scum again. Note that, in his previous point, flinter was only voting wolf as a lurker.

ok, I'll elaborate. Wolf points fingers at others, only to direct attention from him. This is not scumhunting. This is also shown by the fact that wolf, currently, has no other suspicions then them, and he isn't voting one of them.

Further, why do you assume I forgot my first point again Wolf? you might not agree with it (although you saw where I was coming from), but for me that certainly is a point.

My reasons on you are mostly the feelings I get when I see you play. I try to explain them, but that doesn't always work too well.

I don't care, flinter. I want you to explain them as well as you can.

Could you then, in stead of using the point "Flinter said he was a lurker, and she said that was not a good argument" multiple times, ask what I meant with that, if you didn't understand. You misrep me so far that deflection is no longer part of my case, and so is Wolf's first reaction on random votes. I really want to explain them, but you'll have to read my explanations then, ok?

and I'm a she.

[flinter]

just to be clear, why I think wolf is scum.

- His (IMO) nervous start, with the laughing about the votes
- His repeated pointing fingers at other players when he is accused of something.
- His lack of suspicions (town would at least be paranoid of what is happening around him, he just lets everything happen.

[flinter]

Because your case showed potential, and I already said why I wasn't going to vote Wolf, who was my other suspect.

Leaf, I'm not exactly sure why it works, but it does. People who's way of thinking I can easily understand, with who's thoughts I tend to agree are often town. I think that is because both have the same motives.

And a deflection when defending yourself, combined with having no real suspicions at that moment is passive play, showing no real interest in scumhunting, but mostly real interest in selfpreservation. This makes wolf scum. Also, he said I should be doing something about Looker-Kiku, because they were scummy, not because they were lurking.

Defending someone else, esspecially when I think that person town (add it to the buddying argument ), is opposite. I am trying to analyse players, and convince other people I'm right.

And Leaf, this was much more pleasant to read. Thank you.

[flinter]

the more we have to do, Leaf

do you still think I'm scum?

and welcome Doctor who. I'm happy you could replace!

[flinter]

just to be clear, why I think wolf is scum.

- His (IMO) nervous start, with the laughing about the votes
- His repeated pointing fingers at other players when he is accused of something.
- His lack of suspicions (town would at least be paranoid of what is happening around him, he just lets everything happen.

does this work for you, Kiku?

[flinter]

Kiku. If you wouldn't mind, I won't do that now. I'm a bit busy with school, so I will probably reread and point out what I found scummy in the weekend.

But something confuses me: I thought you wanted a concise case? Now you are asking for a very detailed one.

Oh, and might I ask something from you? Would you please read through the thread, and see which points of my case you already understand (I am sure I have explained them somewhere else too). That would make my job a bit easier.

Last thing: I might be wrong, when you read the thread, would you also look for scumtells of other players? With more people searching for scum, we are more likely to find them!

1. Rampant buddying to hewitt. ISO him and look at his last few posts to see what I mean. He complimented his playstyle repeatedly and has called him town without much explanation.
2. He voted a lurker less than a page after telling me votes based on lack of content were useless this early in the game.
3. Attack has a strange mix between passivity and aggression, something that seems to come up a lot when I'm scum. For instance, he states that wolf is scum in certain terms, but apologises for voting him. To me this suggests his accusations are not flowing naturally from him.
4. Word twisting less than a page after making the same accusation as me (this along with 2 implies that he was just throwing anything he could at me to get me lynched).

1. you need reasons for calling someone town? Anyway, I have explained what those reasons were.
2. Leaf. You have read my case. Why are you still saying I voted for a lurker? Because I didn't
3. please. I'm a she. And I'm sorry, but that is the way I talk, and play. We are not here to upset each other and something like that, we are only here to play this game.
4. I'm sorry, but I don't get number four. I seems very serious (I did try everything to get you lynched?). It confuses me.

Leaf, points 1 and 3 are how I like to play, regardless of role. I will say when I think someone is town, and I won't call names, be mean, etc, even if that other player is scum. He's playing the game too.

Point two is, seen the first part of your post, incorrect. You know why I voted wolf, and it wasn't for lurking (I'm sorry for using that word)

[flinter]

1. we disagree on that being poor.
2. It is what you read in that vote. Why would I vote for a lurker who had posted more then slaxx, budja etc. I'm sorry Leaf, but that doesn't make sense. So I didn't. You are a bit stubborn, I'm afraid. "playing reactive and passive" would have done better then "lurking"
3. I did attack him very hard! "hard" in arguments, not with words. Because with right arguments, that make it quite likely that Wolf is scum, I wouldn't need any macho-man rhetoric.
4. You miss one point in that reasoning: I didn't believe wolf would play badly as town. Badly, as in: not searching for scum. I don't think an experienced player would as town only think about selfpreservation. In mafia terms: I used meta. Sure, players can play poor, but I don't think wolf would. Antitown isn't scummy, but Wolf doesn't seem like a player who is likely antitown, or does he?

[flinter]

@Looker: you are mean. And you know that even when my role pm says you are scum, I think you are town!

@flinter

If flinter's role pm says that Looker is scum, then doesn't that mean that flinter is scum too? I'm not sure what you are getting at. Please elaborate.

It was about a previous game I had with Looker (but he was a boy there )

This was also the first instance of when you tell us who you think is town. I am against players saying they think others are town, even if it was the guy I replaced. The scum will use it when choosing NKs.

I disagree.

a. it is information, and information is good.
b. scum can kill who they think is towniest anyway
c. it makes the possible mislynches smaller

and I think that the the amount of information we win, compared to maybe the small advantage the scum could get, is way bigger. Town shouldn't limit the information it can use.

@flinter

A RVS wagon that was no where near a lynch isn't a big deal, but you look like you are distancing too. I'd also hope that every FOS in this game is serious. However, FOS are weak compared to votes. For example, the mod doesn't track FOS.

You get it! If the wagon on Wolf would become big in what people would still call the RVS, the wagon would get quickly abandoned. In that time, wolf wouldn't have been under terrible pressure, because "it was just a RVS wagon".

If the wagon became big after the RVS, Wolf-scum would be in much more trouble. Which is why I used a FoS, told everyone that had nothing of randomness in it, and voted wolf later.

[flinter]

I disagree.

a. it is information, and information is good.
b. scum can kill who they think is towniest anyway
c. it makes the possible mislynches smaller

and I think that the the amount of information we win, compared to maybe the small advantage the scum could get, is way bigger. Town shouldn't limit the information it can use.

a. Not all information is good. For example, if someone says "so-and-so is dropping town power role tells" then that totally sucks.
b. The scum know who are scum and who are town. If enough townies say they think player X is innocent, then you are making the NK choice easy. Also, it is devestating if the town gets "group think" and clears scum.
c. Mislynches are properly combated by scum hunting, not townie hunting. Hunt scum or be hunted.*

You admit that the scum get a small advantage. I disagree - I think it is a huge advantage.

Have you played as scum in a completed game?

*Note to self - "Hunt scum or be hunted" is an awesome idea for a sig line.

a. I'm not doing that.
b. scum is fully capable of seeing who is townie enough to be killed
c. you missed the point: the more people are too townie to be lynched, the more trouble scum has to go for someone else.

Your argument that "if we are wrong, we could lose the game" is the same for calling people scum.

But I see why you argue me: you have heard this, probably from an IC, and now you believe it to be right. Mainly for the first argument you used: scum would choose their targets more easily, which is what all IC's tell you. It is something that is stuck in this game

[flinter]

Your point about the ICs is that all agree with me so they have to be wrong? Huh?!?

Please tell me if you have ever been scum in a completed game (2nd request).

IC's don't learn you the reasons behind tells. Nor does the wiki.
Analyze the reasons. You are saying it is a big problem scum get that knowledge: I don't think so. Scum can think too. You say (/avoid) that this information won't help the town, I think it will. If there are a few who say someone is town, they might convince the town off a mislynch. They might also say scum is town, but that could happen the other way around too: limiting this information stops this part of the discussion.

can we agree to disagree?

And, I can't really answer. Previous game I was scum, but I forgot my role at the start of day 1, and have played the whole game as a vanilla towny

[flinter]

@163:
1. They ARE poor, and I think the rest of the town should agree. Simply thinking like someone is not enough to mark them as town - they could be faking just as easily.
2. It's not what I read into that vote. It's what

you

wrote when voting him.
3. I don't see it. The arguments are weak and not fully followed up.
4. The last bit is wholly unnecessary and innappropriate WIFOM. The rest is a very "meh" reason - what do you expect wolf to act like?

1. How you think is hard to change. You can barely fake your thoughtprocess when posting. Someone who plays to survive argues differently from someone who is trying to find scum. You are wrong, Leaf. Plus, it is my way of scumhunting, and it kinda works, so who are you to tell me it is wrong?
2. I make mistakes. Shouldn't have used that word. Don't you ever?
3. I don't post like you, that is true. I wouldn't like your playstyle, which involves tunneling, and throwing everything on someone you can find. I think this gives a lot of incorrect arguments, and I would ask you to change this during or after this game. (just check what happened with your previous case)
4 why is this WIFOM?

@171:

a. it is information, and information is good.
b. scum can kill who they think is towniest anyway
c. it makes the possible mislynches smaller

By this logic, our PRs should claim now .

I'm sorry, I don't think I said that. Do you think we should?

and in case of a threatening mislynch, PR's usually claim. So why did you want them to claim now?

[flinter]

Analyze the reasons. You are saying it is a big problem scum get that knowledge: I don't think so. Scum can think too. You say (/avoid) that this information won't help the town, I think it will. If there are a few who say someone is town, they might convince the town off a mislynch. They might also say scum is town, but that could happen the other way around too: limiting this information stops this part of the discussion.

I myself have no real problem with town reads, but this does not make sense. Sure, say you think someone is town if they're gonna be lynched, but if they aren't going to be lynched anyway how does stating your opinion on them lower the chance of a mislynch?

That I convince others not to see that person as moderately scummy (I could point out some towntells that others missed. Others would have them in the "neutral" category, while that person should be seen as towny.) which could matter later in the game.

[flinter]

I'm sorry, I don't think I said that. Do you think we should?

and in case of a threatening mislynch, PR's usually claim. So why did you want them to claim now?

a. it is information, and information is good.
c. it makes the possible mislynches smaller

Your words.

This is VERY clear misrepping (and I feel that word is overused - most examples are actually this misunderstandings). It's obvious I'm not asking our PRs to claim now, and there is nothing in that post to suggest I am.

I'm pretty sure I never have said PR's should claim now. So they are your words. I'm pretty sure I saw them in your post, and I would like to know where they came from if they weren't yours. So I'm asking you. Do you think PR's should claim? Is that such a hard question for you? How is that misrepping.

No leaf, you are the king of misrepping here: when I said "more information", you asked me if that meant PR's should claim now. This is no misunderstanding, dear. You are trying to argue this way.

[flinter]

I was merely pointing out (what I thought was) a very obvious flaw in the "all information is good" ideal. I was not accusing you of wanting a massclaim.

See, that's what I meant. You are plain simply misusing what I said for your argumentation. And you are going to get a reaction if you are seriously talking about claiming the powerroles: which was nowhere to be found in my post, and solely your idea. I'm actually getting a bit annoyed with you saying now,

I

thought it up.

Following your argumentation, Information is actually bad. Meaning that somewhere in your argument, there is a nuance that hasn't been shown yet.

Doc: wouldn't scum get the same knowledge if they checked who was called scum the least?

[flinter]

@171:

a. it is information, and information is good.
b. scum can kill who they think is towniest anyway
c. it makes the possible mislynches smaller

By this logic, our PRs should claim now .

lets restate this:

no, why would you think that is a good plan?

[flinter]

See, that's what I meant. You are plain simply misusing what I said for your argumentation. And you are going to get a reaction if you are seriously talking about claiming the powerroles: which was nowhere to be found in my post, and solely your idea. I'm actually getting a bit annoyed with you saying now,

I

thought it up.

What the HELL. Answer me this question, and answer it straight. A yes/no answer.

Do you think I, in the following line

By this logic, our PRs should claim now .

I was being serious?

No. I want to know where you got the idea from that that was a normal argument. Why use "massclaim" to ridicule an argument that argues that we should discuss who is town too? Answer me.

Even when you have posted you don't disagree that much with that idea. So you are just trying to discredit me here in an insane way. And when I point that out, you, the king of misrepping (because where did you see I wanted massclaim, it is completely not the point) accuse me of making

your

misrep. If it was sarcastic or not, it was completely not the point.

Edited quote tags. Content remains the same.

[flinter]

Thank you for editing my post, mod!

Guy's, not everyone is just as active every time. Give her some time to respond, please. We will get no further if we pick someone, and then attack that person with point after point: that just causes mislynches.

Dizzy, could you tell me who placed the worst vote on Leaf?
and when you are doing that, what do you think about Kiku's posting till now?

[flinter]

wait, are we lynching me?

why?

[flinter]

@Flinter - 204 looks worryingly like a "Plz unvote me" post. It answers a question with basically the same question, which isn't helpful.

where did I say: "please unvote me?" you misrep me again. Please stop it, it isn't fun anymore.

And kiku hasn't made a single case on anyone. And her vote is on me, she says she wants to lynch me, so I think we are entitled to know why.

[flinter]

unvote vote Kiku

On the moment you are asked for a justification for your vote, you change your vote to the largest bandwagon, because... it is the largest bandwagon.

@Doc: Did I defend wolf? maybe against something that I didn't consider a point against him.

If a scum is lynched and I was against that lynch, nothing really changes for a normal game. We are going to look at the interactions people had with that scum, and we are going to check what interactions that scum had with the rest of the town. An auto lynch of me is not what we should do, if that is your point. You should discuss first.

Looker, I think you should start playing your game again. Nothing new, just ordinary scumhunting. I always think you town, and this time is no different, but giving up is not towny.

[flinter]

you are right, looker. Wolf doesn't like this game, I think.

[flinter]

I asked flinter a rather direct question which they avoided.

I think I know what question you mean. First you asked for a concise case, and when I gave that to you, you wanted every point with prove etc, while this was already in the thread. You claimed this was so wolf could reply (which he already did to my points). I'm a good person, but I'm not crazy.

hey, wait, I like a concise case, 3 points at least, from you, and then I'd like proof and arguments so that person can react. Please?

On this moment, the Looker wagon is quite terrible. Leaf's isn't much better.

[flinter]

I have faith in humanity, and Kiku is a good girl.

Right?

Kiku, you would never kill me, right?

[flinter]

and in the end, Hewitt is correct. Leaf is lynched for being antitown, tunneling etc.

You have been warned, leaf.

[flinter]

I'm not voting you, am I?

but you are doing this, leaf. Mafia is a game of discussion: that means reading and arguing. You seem to put way too much interest in one of them.

Why?

[flinter]

unvote vote kiku

[flinter]

Im sorry, I will need a reread before I'm really capable of playing well here again.

[flinter]

Posting to avoid a prod. I'm quite busy with school at the moment: I'll try to make some time for this later.

Sorry

[flinter]

I'm sorry, I'll be away again. After easter things will get better.

@ICE. Yes, I wanted to stay off the Looker wagon. I haven't believed in it.

I can't see how you can say a vote for Kiku is weak. Kiku has said less then me, while I'm the one that was gone. I believe that my vote on wolf, though I believe on it, was argued for the worst.

@ tony. Looker is not the type that gives up and shows his scumbuddy. He could be doing a double bluff.

I'll reread in a week. I'm sorry. If the mod thinks it is better to replace me, he could do that, but I would like to stay.

[flinter]

pman: Looker does that as town, to fish for reactions and gain information. This is also why it didn't make me think he was scum. His playstyle is ... odd. And it gets him lynched. That is true.

But I can imagine scum would in some way vote different then town. It might give information about who is Lookers buddy, but the guy isn't stupid, and he probably knows we are going to do that. Making a lot of votes that aren't that serious makes it easy to stop us from reading them well.

[flinter]

Hi!

From now on, things should get better for me: This week, I will have plenty of time so I'm coming back into this game.

I stay with my townread on fifi, and I find the wagon on ooba slightly disturbing. It is really weird how he gets wagonned here while he made a nice post on the start of the day. From a replacement it is expected to have different views on the game, and usually this is a good thing. Scum who thought they were calmly going for the win can be caught with such replacements.

I am mostly disturbed that Tony and ICE promote Kyle's OMGUS vote to something... more.

Wow, JMJ was a moron. Leaf was one of the most townie players in this game. Just off the top of my head, my top suspect right now is Flinter, for a couple of reasons, mainly because she stayed off the Looker wagon to pursue a weak case on Kiku and a general lack of scumhunting and activity. I have to do a full reread though.

Great. You thought Leaf town, and you find it necesary to say this. Why? to look town?

and why are you voting Ooba, and not me, dear kyle?

more coming tomorrow (then I'm going over day 1 again)

[flinter]

Tony, please don't make more of my post then I have posted.

I would have expected a flinter-vote from kyle, not an Ooba one. That there is totally no criticism for his vote strikes me as odd.

I thought I had a gut town read on fifi during the start of day one.

[flinter]

ok, I am truly sorry that I don't have my promised post about D1.

I'll stick with my defense: I have a history with Looker as scum, I was his partner last game (though I forgot about it). Kyle was another player in that game. I said I read my role pm, just because I forgot it there.

further, I have trouble to see how lookers claim that he tried to play different should make me worried? I don't know if you noticed, but what makes that Looker, in practically every game he is in, gets a lot of votes? I'll tell you Looker is an intelligent guy.

He gets voted because he play's different. I actually expect experimenting from someone with a playstyle like his. I'm sorry, but this case is not as much as it seems.

Ooba's, however, is more serious.

I could see scum making a chainsaw like that, and I'm afraid I can't say other then that I really disliked that point by Leaf, like I explained there. The coaching part is completely true, but I expected Looker to be on my side

In basis: you have a point: I really disliked the looker wagon, as I saw most of the argumentation being against his playstyle, from which I know is what gets him (mis)lynched.




Dear doctor who:

I am completely sure about my point about calling people town. I feel you are wrong, but I know where your idea's come from. I dislike how you try to add this to the case, as if that would make you right: this is purely theoretical. You're argumentation that

every

IC would say this, is first: unproven, and second based on an authority which shouldn't be used. Every IC could be wrong, and nobody would notice, nor correct them.

If you feel you should change my playstyle, feel free to, but not in this game. I would gladly discuss this (not debate, I can be reasonable sometimes ) when this game is finished.

Yours sincerely

Flinter

PS. Tell tony I agree with him that you are likely town, and ask him why you weren't killed.

[flinter]

dear mod

I'm having trouble to set my mind to this game, and I'm afraid I am not participating in it as I should. Would you mind searching a replacement for me? I don't see the situation improving in the next week, as I will have to use a lot of my time for studying.

I can do that.