Open 208 - Fire & Ice Mafia >Over!<

[DTMaster]

@Ice

@Timezone discussion
You sir fail at discussion stimulation. It's like asking trivia questions: You are contributing, but not contributing anything of substance which rubs me the wrong way.

It reminds me of Pome and her role as Ice scum in a Fire/Ice game, where she focused on trivia questions to generate discussion, rather then scum hunt.

@Xscorpion//Scott
So pwnman's argument sucks, but not Saint Kerrigan's RVS reasoning that was used in agreement to it.

Interesting, why is Saint Kerrigan's post more valid then pwnmans? Why is pwnman's wagon vote scummy?

@Mindgamer
I had the pleasure to mod pwnman. He is very anti-town newbie, but gut instinct says I need more time to get a better read. You should also look at join dates.

Pwnman
Joined: 30 Jan 2010

@SK/Crazy

Wait what?

XScorpion: How long have you been here for?

Well, the date next to my name says August 2009 so I'll go with that.
pwnman's argument sucks.

unvote
Vote:pwnman

Well, the date next to my name says August 2009 so I'll go with that.
pwnman's argument sucks.
unvote
Vote:pwnman

My arguement aswell as SK's is this

Pwn's vote is now hiding in all these posts and nobody took the opportunity to ask for his reason. Pwn, can you state it?

My reasons was for Mindgamer's first post.

Vote ICE

Obvouisly Fire Mafia

You just saying my arguement "sucks" makes an even worse arguement against me.

unvote

vote XScorpion

for the OMGUS vote

And you piggybacking off someone's argument, who barely explained it is not good. You are either being VI or scum with that and blatant OMGUS

ICE- With the explanation, I am a little less concerned about it, but will keep an eye on the activity level for him.

Unvote
Vote: pwnman

Yeah, never consider the fact that I thought it was a scum slip up too.

You argued that your argument is the same as mine, which is impossible since my argument was that Mindgamer was Ice Mafia specifically while you stated he could be either Fire or Ice Mafia. Thus, it sure looks like you were just piggybacking on my vote, and then tried to use my argument to explain why you thought Mindgamer was mafia. That feels scummy.

Unvote
Vote: pwnman

Yeah, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about (and just piggybacking off of SK) if you agree that what Mindgamer said was a scumslip and then say you think he's either Fire Mafia or Ice Mafia.

[DTMaster]

SK and Crazy are extremely scummy now, because what they essentially do is parrot pwnman using Scott's post. Look at it, it's copy and paste.

If you four are essentially using this piggy back argument against pwnman, what's so diffrent for SK/Crazy.

I also really "like how crazy" questions pwnman on his post then post this:

Yeah, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about (and just piggybacking off of SK) if you agree that what Mindgamer said was a scumslip and then say you think he's either Fire Mafia or Ice Mafia.

The fact that crazy says you

must specificity scum factions

is retardly naive and dumb. As town, you don't specify likely scum factions untill you have scum flips. You do however, specifiy scum links between people as potential partners.

Also you attack people based on how scummy X person is. I might as well apply the same thing to you crazy, when pwnman piggybacked, you must specify factions with that. That's silly.

You specify scum players.

Vote: Crazy

with

FoS: SarahKerrigan

using an argument that they themselves are guilty of.

[DTMaster]

@DarkLight - Put simply, the wagon is because pwnman followed on SaintKerrigan's case without even understanding the logic himself. That is VERY scummy. That's a whole lot more scummy than a "misinterpretation of a random vote."

Whoa there: 3 pages in and SK already outlined a logical case on someone? The hell?

[DTMaster]

well, I don't know if pwnman is scum or not, but I'm willing to bet a good amount of money there's an opportunistic scum on his wagon.

It's quite possible, but scum in multi-faction games are usually looking for a little more than an easy mislynch; they usually want to lynch scum from the other faction. Probably not both of the other scum-team, but one of them, at least.

Actually, in this setup, this above statement is extremely important^^

[DTMaster]

Also for a tldr version

Scorpion: Pwnman is bad
Scott: Pwnman piggybacked SK in the RVS with 7 to lynch
-----
SK: I agree pwnman piggybacked me.
Crazy: I agree pwnman piggybacked SK.


The top two above the line are more townish because they started the argument. The bottom two are the hypocrites.

[DTMaster]

@Nikanor

Why can't we just open all the rooms and look inside them. Wouldn't it be more effective and less annoying to do so?

Yes, but the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms says that personal privacy is a right. We wouldn't want to violate the Charter!

[DTMaster]

But the government continually violates the charter on the daily basis from industry or police work.

Like child pornography. If people are discovered to have it, they can be prosecuted. In a case of murders, we should have the right to investigate each room to catch the criminal, as practiced in Canada

Shut up. Stop poking holes in my flavour. Maybe I'm with the bad guys, huh? HUH?! EVER THINK OF THAT, PUNK?!
No. I didn't think so.

[DTMaster]

Haha you scum slipped Mod!

You saw nothing.

[DTMaster]

@ICE
1. Um, you should operate that people have lives and people live across the world. If it will help you so much, I'm MST and on the same time as the mod.

I rather use this to determine the level of active lurking:
http://www.msutils.net/search.php

since the post search is down.

A present, for everyone!

2. I really like how you dislike my little side exchange with the mod and my excessive posts, but you don't actually read my posts after you ask for my thoughts. Ice likes to skirt around details.

@SK
Um, did you not read my posts. I showed how you

specifically

mirror what Scott says. I also find it funny how you can determine if Mind was ice.

If anything it should be you who is scummy because only fire scum can make that distinction

. This is beyond RVS reasoning, and now you seem to stress this point very seriously.

@Crazy
Tell me, how is town supposed to make the distinction from ice/fire mafia in 3 pages, no night kills, day start game? Town is not concerned in making distinctions between Ice/Fire slips, town is only determined in finding scum slips in general of either factions.

What's troubling is

no one seem to caught on that SK focused specifically on Mindgamer for an Ice slip, and Crazy is joining in on the pwnwagon for not saying Mind is Ice scum, rather pwn finds Mindgamer scummy.

It makes me think that both Crazy and SK are scum together. If they are so focused on this "ice scum hunting", it makes look like fire scum hunting for the other faction.

[DTMaster]

Tl;DR

@SK/Crazy seem to tunnel heavily on pwnman for "icey reasons", which makes me think they are scum actively are more intrested in ice scum hunting, rather then just scum hunting, In this game where cross kills cannot happen, there are stronger reasons for either scum factions to tunnel for their rival.

@IceNinja
Doesn't want to analyze my post. I'm starting to dislike him even more now because he chose to ignore me, given that he asked for my thoughts. Looks like scum coasting.

[DTMaster]

@Crazy
1. Why would you need to explain Scott's argument to me? You and Saint are using Scott's argument and attacking pwnman. If anything: you are pwnman 2.0. doing the same thing he was.

2. How are you diffrent from pwnman hm? I outlined how you are just as guilty as he is in your "scum case" for your:

Piggy back argument, and your bandwagon argument.

3.

The original idea that SK had about the slip was that Mindgamer was Ice Mafia because Mindgamer said ICE was obv-Fire Mafia, and that sounds like a scum-slip for Mindgamer (as in, he knew ICE wasn't Ice Mafia.) I never bought into that, but that's not the point.

Isn't the fact that SK said Mindgamer is potential ice scum ringing red flags for you? Why would, SK, be so specific in Mindgamer's post and accuse him as ice scum.

It would be more accurate to attack Mindgamer for "claiming scum", but the fact that SK said she was serious about her Mindgamer for a page 1 comment makes me think: SK is fire scum

4. Omg. I called you. Crazy and SK as fire scum. At no point did I ever mentioned that Mindgamer was fire scum. However the fact that:

You can clear Mindgamer as

Option E - "Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip" does not exist.

is a slip in itself because only fire scum would know this. Also this post:

A. Mindgamer is town, and the post was a joke.
B. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a joke.
C. Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a joke.
D. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip.

Just says: Mindgamer is Ice, or Fire, or Town. You are contributing thin air.

I find option D farfetched in itself; but the fact that pwnman agreed that Mindgamer made a scum-slip, and then said that Mindgamer was either Fire Mafia or Ice Mafia showed that pwnman had no idea what he was talking about, and was just piggybacking off of SK's argument while understanding nothing. That's very scummy.

No the fact that you just cleared Mindgamer from firescum in certain scenerios is

scummier

then pwnman's second vote on a potential wagon.

@Scorpion
And my quotes on how Saint Kerrigan and Crazy who used the exact same words as Scott isn't an example of the piggyback argument? I find it funny how you 4 are quite adamant on this wagon, when participants of said wagon are guilty of said scum trait.

[DTMaster]

I want more votes on Crazy now.

[DTMaster]

I like the RVS.

Vote: ICEninja

Obviously Fire Mafia.

My timezone is UTC+1 / GMT+1.

I should add.

^^ With this post that Crazy is analyzing Mindgamer. You don't clear people based on this post, you don't automatically jump to:

If he is alignment A, he is doing B.

That's over the top analysis that ends up:

He is town, or scum. He can be ice, or fire. He could be joking, or slipping.

[DTMaster]

@Crazy

1. Wow. First of, that is a vote in the RVS. How can you quickly determine alignments based on one post. When you say:

a. The statement is a joke, the thing about fire scum is obviously does not reveal his alignment. Hence Mindgamer can be any alignment, even fire scum.

b. When you say Mindgamer's vote and comment on fire scum is a slip. You can argue Freudian slip. Mindgamer is fire scum, attempting to paint someone else as fire scum. Mindgamer is ice scum, attempting to find ice scum. Or Mindgamer is town, looking for reactions through a fake slip.

2.

There's nothing wrong with agreeing with somebody else's case, silly. Otherwise, we'd never lynch anybody. The problem is that pwnman never understood SK's argument about Mindgamer to begin with, and still followed with his vote.

You are pretty much arguing that pwnman is scummy for not

understanding a case

. Do your realize this? Pwnman followed through on a second vote on a wagon. Not understanding and being scummy are completely different things.

I also like how you totally ignore the piggyback argument, which yourself is guilty of in the outlined quotes I showed above.

TD;DR: Crazy jumps the gun to clear someone as fire scum and only fire scum can do that. He's guilty of piggybacking, just like pwnman. He calls out that pwnman wagons, but his main scummy trait is not understanding a case. This argument is extremely faulty and much more scummier then pwnman's actions.

[DTMaster]

@SK
What wtf? SK is just as useful as pwnman right now. Like seriously, have issues? Point them out? SK is too focused on tunneling on pwnman to actually scum hunt. It's very likely SK is scum.

@Crazy

I was never in favor of the Mindgamer made an Ice scum-slip argument.

]

You are lying through your teeth

These were the options:

A. Mindgamer is town, and the post was a joke.
B. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a joke.
C. Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a joke.
D. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip.

Option E - "Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip" does not exist.

I find option D farfetched in itself; but the fact that pwnman agreed that Mindgamer made a scum-slip, and then said that Mindgamer was either Fire Mafia or Ice Mafia showed that pwnman had no idea what he was talking about, and was just piggybacking off of SK's argument while understanding nothing. That's very scummy.

@DTM and pwnman - Please explain how Mindgamer's first post could possibly be a slip from a Fire Mafia!

DTM, understanding that Mindgamer's first post COULD NOT BE a Fire Mafia slip (rather, the only possibilities are a joke or an Ice Mafia slip.) is critical to understanding the case on pwnman.

You've expressed preference that mindgamer was not fire scum, but you didn't shy away from the fact that you can interpret mindgamer as ice scum.

True. I think it's a joke, but clearly SK and pwnman did not think so.

Ding ding ding! Hey what did you say again? SK was specific about Mindgamer being ice scum. Why haven't you picked up on this? Here let me ask you this:

why is SK so focused on finding ice scum in Mindgamer?

How is this proof of townish alignment on SK

You really think pwnman thought of all that WIFOM nonsense?

Am I asking about pwnman? No. My question was directed to you. You certainly thought of this wifom. Why did you just answer my question with a question of your own.

Also pwnman didn't think up the wifom list, you did. Are we seriously going to argue that: because pwnman didn't think of the wifom possibilities, he must be scum because he didn't think through all of said possibilities. That's very absurd, you do know that. You aren't Mindgamer, and if mindgamer is scum the only way you can narrow down that list right now is being his partner.

I like the rehashed arguments, it never gets stale.

@ Half the Town
You

are not posting. Why?

Also half the town fails at taking stances. If anything these people should be wagoned right now:

I never said the people who are on the same wagon as me are town either. I don't mind lynching a member of one of the mafia groups with the help of the other, and it's quite possible that you and I are both right: StK and Crazy are part of one mafia, and Pwnman is in the other. The fact that Pwnman did it first though, and followed up with an OMGUS vote to boot, means I'd like him gone first, although the order doesn't REALLY matter.

For not following up on pwnman/Sk/Crazy. Just because you think you caught 1 scum, doesn't mean you stop scum hunting your secondaries. If pwnman flips town, you are literally screwed since you have nothing to go off. I dislike how you say others can be scum on said wagon but you don't actually participate in said scum hunting.

Not understanding a case is not scummy. Bandwagoning is sometimes scummy. Bandwagoning while not understanding the case is VERY SCUMMY!

Consider the circumstances: RVS stage, pwnman put the second vote on a guy. He was L-5 from lynch, meaning there were 5 people there to lynch. Now reread pwnman's posts:

Pwn's vote is now hiding in all these posts and nobody took the opportunity to ask for his reason. Pwn, can you state it?

My reasons was for Mindgamer's first post.

Vote ICE

Obvouisly Fire Mafia

Well, the date next to my name says August 2009 so I'll go with that.
pwnman's argument sucks.
unvote
Vote:pwnman

My arguement aswell as SK's is this

Pwn's vote is now hiding in all these posts and nobody took the opportunity to ask for his reason. Pwn, can you state it?

My reasons was for Mindgamer's first post.

Vote ICE

Obvouisly Fire Mafia

You just saying my arguement "sucks" makes an even worse arguement against me.

unvote

vote XScorpion

for the OMGUS vote

[/quote]

Guy agreeing with SK, wagoning to gain info. Ok I get it then.

Yeah, never consider the fact that I thought it was a scum slip up too.

It's a bad wagon I'm town. Thank you ladies and gentlemen of the jury

This reads as a guy getting confused. Now seriously you deserve a good lynchin if you repeat the whole: He did not understand argument to me again.

You just said understanding wasn't scummy. When I reread the above, I read tons of confusion, and lots of anti-town newbie behaviour. However, Pwnman had a sense of a reason to vote, which he quoted SK's reasoning. This got pressed, and pwnman admits: He didn't see XY possibility. This reasoning means, his vote wasn't valid and the case wasn't that strong. The OMGUS, yes scummy. The confusion? Not so much.

This above is not a sign of scumminess. You aren't even pointing out the full details on the pwnman case in this.

his, you're guilty of pegging me as fire scum when earlier you said you can't deduce different types of scum on Day 1. Razz Though I don't care, because I don't believe you're scum; because I don't think you are pwnman's partner (I think DarkLight is, for the XScorpion vote), and I can't see scum that's not pwnman's partner going through the crap you're going through.

No, the diffrence is: You said someone was cleared of a faction based on their post. I say, you are probably fire scum based on how SK focuses on ice scum and you joined in on the ice scum debate, outlined above.

If I'm wrong about your alignment, then I'm wrong, how ever, you are specifically ignoring the fact that there are people looking for specific scum in this game. Your vote with SK and your analysis on Mindgamer, outlined above, makes you look like you are specifically ice-scum hunting.



@Deer/Mindgamer/Darklight
You are taking a stance against the pwnman wagon,

but you aren't doing anything else. Why the hell aren't you scum hunting right now?

FYI: If anything, the above are passive scum looking for town cred. If I was a vig I would shoot one of them right now. Specifcally I would like to shoot deer because of this post:

The thing is, I think it's stupid to even suggest that mindgamer is fire/ice mafia based on a blatantly obvious joke. I find SK pretty scummy for insinuating that in the first place, along with the piggybacking thing DT and I (kind of) brought up.

Because there is no vote and no follow up to the SK scum case. In fact, deer just leaves this case hanging around doing nothing.

If you three are town aligned, you are being too passive in this game where: scum can't cross kill each other.

Unvote

Vote SaintKerrigan

Crazy is actually doing something. SK isn't. SK is hanging in on this wagon while crazy does the work right now.

[DTMaster]

@Ice
No, you don't have to respond to everyone. However you specifically asked for my reads, and did not do a follow up on them. That in itself is avoiding the issue good sir.


1. The pwnman case is cut and dry. He wagoned on Mindgamer, citing the same reasons as SK. Then under-pressure omgused. He is also posting in an anti-town manner, and quite frankly is currently hiding behind my arguments since he isn't doing anything.

However I find it intresting that half the town, you included, demonstated that: Pwnman is scummy but the wagon is suspec. If pwnman isn't scummy, I don't see any scum hunting down outside of the pwnman mindset. It's quite odd:

Reminds me of spectators just commenting from the outside

[DTMaster]

@Crazy

It's not; when have I said I thought SK was certain town? PWnman is just far scummier in my eyes, since he used the same case as SK, except he didn't even understand it!

The moment you never voiced an opinion on SK and agreed with SK, is the moment you are joining SK on this wagon.

If you seriously think that SK is scummy for her actions, why aren't you doing anything about this? All you've done is tunneled on pwnman this entire game, and tunneled on the connection of pwnman to SK's case by attacking pwnman.

If you don't have a good town read on SK

I find your case lacking when you aren't even taking effort to explore this avenue.

What I'm trying to get you to see is that Pwnman didn't understand the SK's case yet still voted for Mindgamer. Can you possibly deny that?

I'm not denying it, I'm saying you aren't attacking people who are deserving more of a wagon. You aren't even commenting on any other points of the pwnman wagon. Your insistance that the case is a done deal is making you tunnel.

You admitted that there are scummy people, why aren't you doing anything about this. You even admit that Mindgamer could be ice scum who slipped, however you aren't even exploring that part. You said he could be town or scum, but have done any effort to scum hunt outside of your pwnman case. If today was the deadline, and pwnman was lynched, consider this:

What position would you be if he flipped town.
What position would you be if he flipped scum.

The latter is awesome. The former, however, isn't.

Your case = one point.
My points on pwnman >>>> in number of arguments then yours.

Like seriously, you don't even comment on pwnman's recent post.

Hey, maybe SK and pwnman are partners; that would make sense.

Hey if they were: you have to answer: Why is SK so insistant on a pwnman lynch? It's unlikely they are on the same faction due to the strong push against pwnman.

SK's case on pwnman isn't weak. SK's case on Mindgamer was far weaker. And pwnman agreed with SK about Mindgamer without even understanding it in the first place.

So you ignore SK, but not Mindgamer and Pwnman? Like the eff?

DTM, it seems like you actually think pwnman would be scum if he wasn't a newbie, so you're just giving him a free pass, right? I mean, like nothing he ever could do would ever be scummy, because he's just a newb and doesn't know anything, right?

The fact that

pwnman admitted that he was wrong tips me off. If pwnman really wanted a quick wagon, he would press on with the "scum slip theory" because it was the leading, competing wagon. Even deflecting to the town lurkers would be much more realistic. Admitting that you were wrong/did not understand a case is not, I seriously mean, it's not a scum tell. It means that you took the time and said:

"I was wrong about this case"

I agree that my case on Mindgamer was weak. It was an attempt to make something happen to jolt out the RVS (although at the time I agreed with my reasoning).When Pwnman voted Mindgamer as well, he attributed his reasoning to be the same as mine. Since I concluded that Mindgamer was Ice Mafia specifically and Pwnman gave his conclusion that Mindgamer could be of either faction, it showed that he actually wasn't agreeing with my argument, he was just piling a vote on Mindgamer and using my reasoning as the excuse. That's scummy. DT, I am having a hard time fathoming how you can not see this.

Hey hey, Crazy expressed prefrence that Mindgamer was ice scum. If you specifically now say you used this to start discussion: why are you so hard pressed on pwnman when

1. You said your case was wrong in hindsight, but pwnman can't be given the same grace. Pwnman admitted before you (this post) that he was wrong, but you are attacking pwnman for something you are guilty for.

2. Crazy expressed prefrence that mindgamer appears like ice scum under your argument: but the fact that you don't address Crazy of this is contradictory when you tunnel heavily on pwnman

^^Look at the above, this is scum. SK needs a wagon on her now. She is backtracking in circles right now to force a pwnman lynch. This is a much stronger scum tell then anything.


@Darklight A
You sir are SK's scum buddy if you don't address what's BS about my vote.

@Mindgamer
Wait what the hell? I'm sorry you just derailed everything I just posted. You sir are scum coasting in the current pwnman/crazy/dtm debate.

@Ice
You obviously didn't read my posts. My main case was on Crazy but my conclusions were

Town who likes to tunnel

. [

I'm voting SK right now, not crazy. Learn to read k thanks

[DTMaster]

Mod: Prod fallenangel and Scott

fallen angel is being replaced.

Learn to read k thanks

~Nik

[DTMaster]

Yeah, never consider the fact that I thought it was a scum slip up too.

@Pwnman being wrong

A. Mindgamer is town, and the post was a joke.
B. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a joke.
C. Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a joke.
D. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip.

Option E - "Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip" does not exist.

My read on Mindgamer is pretty neutral; he could be town or either scum. All I've said is, IF HE SLIPPED, THEN HE'S ICE SCUM. To me, that means nothing, because I don't think he slipped. That only has relevance to SK and pwnman.

@DTM and pwnman - Please explain how Mindgamer's first post could possibly be a slip from a Fire Mafia!

^^ Prefrence at Ice Scum. If Crazy ruled out Mindgamer-firescum. He is left with Town-Mindgamer or Icescum-Mindgamer.

I explained how a firescum-Mindgamer would make a Freudian slip, by delfecting attention towards someone as fire scum

[DTMaster]

@Ice

Aside: I like how you agree with me, yet at the same time call me scummy for it. I also like how you call agression, a play style choice, scummy when it is a matter of play stayle.

You sire are quite the hypocrite. If you think my attacks on these people are scummy, then you must

have reason to suspect that Crazy and/SK are town

. You also point out that half the town is passive, and doesn't do any thing.

Hey guess what dude: If you don't want a passive town, you have someone who is going to be aggressive in scum hunting to produce a read. Complaining about passiveness and then saying aggression from Me, and Crazy as a scum tell = You find Mindgamer and Pwnman town.

Why? The argument is: Aggression = scum pushing hard on a case. On what case? On a mislynch of course. Scum has less intensive to bus themselves day 1.

Finally, I like how you call Kerrigan scummy behind Crazy. But in your reread: Kerrigan gets cleared for mostly agreeing with what you believe in. You entirely skip over the scum signs that you clearly understood in 134.

Crazy who also believes in a pwnman lynch, but a possible town Mindgamer doesn't get cleared.

Why I find your analysis of these players faulty? Crazy has done more work then SK in the past couple of days for his case. SK is just riding on the Crazy analysis for the pwnman wagon.

You don't find that scummy at all?

[DTMaster]

@Crazy

That's exactly what DTM said. It's disappointing that DTM ended up answering that question before you, because now I have less proof. I know you didn't think of that WIFOM crap when you voted Mindgamer, and I'm about 95% sure you're scum.

Actually, the fact that pwnman took so long to answer, then rehashed my answer should be proof that pwnman is being scummy about his reasoning.

I am tunneling because I really think pwnman is scum. There's nobody today I would rather lynch than pwnman; I don't even think there's anybody I could lynch instead of pwnman even if I wanted too.

If I'm lynched, so be it. If pwnman is lynched, he's probably scum. If he's not, I'll count my loss and try again. But there's no way I'll change my opinion on pwnman unless I see him flip town.

What's stopping you from doing both?

@Iceninja

I agree with a couple of your points. Other points seem to be you just not getting it. Aggression is a play style, sure, but attempting to get someone lynched starting page 4 is not pro town.

hahahahha, oh my. Iceninja, did it look like I had an entire wagon rolling behind me? It was only on page 5 when people started to vote for crazy. If I put Crazy at L-1,

then I would be attempting to get him lynched

. I was first to pull a case on Crazy, thus the first to scum hunt him

It's like the pwnman case, Scott was the first to reason it, but scorpion was the first
to vote.

I like it how when the pressure was on pwnman, it was scum hunting and you liked a pwnman lynch. How ever when I pressured Crazy, I'm attempting to lynch someone.

I'm scum hunting good sir, and if Crazy demonstrates scumminess

he deserves to be lynched

. Your favoritism of Crazy is insane because you didn't call this out when the pwnman case had 4 people on the wagon in under 4 pages.

However, you do raise a few valid points. My problem with your cases against Kerrigan and Crazy are not because I find them town, they've both done a few scummy things, but because you've been trying to end the day too early. I just find it hard to believe that town is going to be ready to lynch someone so early. I must also consider what a push against either of you would mean. IMO both DT and Crazy respond fairly well to attacks against them while other players simply look really bad. This combined with the fact that a mislynch on DT would be quite bad for the town, I am going to switch my focus.

This says:

DTM is a threat to me

. Not: DTM was trying to quick lynch.

Unvote

Vote: IceNinja

[DTMaster]

Ugh fail tags. I need to preview.

[DTMaster]

@IceNinja
1. I was calling out people who took stances, but did nothing about it via Pwnman/Crazy/SK debate. In my earlier post, people outlined "I disiked this wagon", but did not do anything about this.

Saying that this case was in the early stages, then lecturing me about how my case on Crazy was unfounded due to pwn's scumminess is very

very contradicatory

Either you disapprove of my Crazy attack because the wagon on pwnman was founded, or you found the wagon suspicious and people needed to reread what happened given that it was so early.

ITT

IceNinja is bactracking

2. Lol, and people are sheep that would follow me everywhere. Riiight. You are extremely unrealstic saying that I would cause a quick lynch in my case. If anything, if a quick lynch on crazy occured

we would be analyzing the wagon itself, which would narrow down the scum pool based on how Crazy flipped

Town in their right minds would not quick lynch, and its more likely scum on said wagon would because it cuts discussion, the bread and butter for townies.

Quick lynches are bad, but are amazing to analyze from.

3. Hahah,

His case had much more merit at that point.

So you called me scummy for being right in the context of my case? And that Crazy case was valid given that:

when I made it, it was bloody valid?

Oh my god, Iceninja is trying to buddy me and discredit me at the same time. He just said my case was valid

and that after when I switched my wagon when I called Crazy townie, I'm still on a Crazy wagon

It's like saying:
You were right, but now you are wrong.

After I've concluded:
Hm I believe this is right, but now I see that I was mistaken about my initial read.

^^^ Read once in a while.

4. However, your case on ScorpionX is correct. Meta evidence says: he's lurking. Potentially, you can say he's active lurking because his last post was a vote to join in on a wagon.

No content + bandwagon vote + "dissapearance"

@SK
Pwnman's case is getting more merit due to the posts he's done and how he hides behind my attacks. That is scummy in itself, and is a better tell then Crazy's case.

If pwnman was townie, he would scum hunt and defend himself. Everything screams self presevation first, rather then actively finding scum.

[DTMaster]

Regardless, you seemed like you wanted the quick lynch. You were pushing for more votes on someone, which is essentially asking the town for a lynch. Would you have gone back and said "well I asked for votes not a lynch!!!" had a quick lynch on pwnman happened?

Asking for pressure votes is not asking for quicklynching. I'm trusting that the town will prevent a quick lynch from happening. It takes 7 people to lynch right now, and at least there will be 3 townies on said wagon if it came to fruit.

Quick lynch =/= wanting pressure. People under pressure generates

useful information to analyze

.

You get to analyze: How they defend, who they think is scummy, and why. You get to see their reasoning, and you can determine if it makes sense. Therefore you can find out if someone is scummy or not.

I found pwnman moderately scummy, but never felt that the wagon on him was a good thing. The problem where your case was unfounded was because you didn't understand Crazy's case. You still seem to not because your attacks are still so riddled with confusing and misinterpretation that are still being carried through.

If it continues, it is going to be quite damaging to the town.

Hm? Hold on, did you just admit that I'm part of the town? See the above part.
What happened to the inital suspicion of Scum-DTM. I know you said: I've done lots of forceful scumhunting, but that is quite a leap of logic to say my case was damaging to the town.

It means that you are pro-pwnman lynch, and pro-Crazy case, but did not do it. If you take this quote:

I found pwnman moderately scummy, but never felt that the wagon on him was a good thing.

And the original reasoning to the wagon

Perhaps not, but the vote against him is based off a vote placed in the RVS, or more specifically, an explanation of said vote.

Now at the same time, I don't actually get the feeling that pwnman's vote was random, nor do I feel that he explained his vote very well. I really don't like his style of 1 liners all over the place, as it seems like he's contributing but his posts don't actually say anything.

There is absolutely potential for there to be scum here. I'm not going to join the bandwagon at this time, however, as I would prefer pwnman to actually lay out his thought process on why he felt that first post made Mindgamer look scummy, and why he felt it was worth a vote.

If he is unable to do this, then yes he looks very scummy indeed and I may be placing my vote as well.

As a clarification, the fact that Kerrigan just recently understood Mindgamer's little joke (I was hoping my response to the vote would have prevented this but apprently not) is why I dislike people intentionally saying stupidly obvious wrong things, because there's always potential for confusion.

As a further clarification, the way people were using it, i thought a VI was a role, and looked extensively through the role database without success. I finally found the article and realize that it is just a bad townie that gets himself lynched.

I don't see a lot of effort in pressing the pwnman issue. All I see is focus on critiszing DTM for attacking Crazy. Iceman

Why didn't you press harder on pwnman given the above quote? Also if you felt that scum could have been on the wagon against pwnman, why haven't you done anything until I've raised conerns about said wagon?

The timing of the Xscoprion vote is justifiable, but the lack of scum hunting in between is noted.

@Nacho
Pwnman hasn't posted for a while either, which also hurts him. We have, 5 heavy lurkers right now.

@Darklight
You said you were thinking, what were your conclusions of your thoughts?

@My Summary
Iceninja is definaltly not the lynch for today. However Scorpion just admitted to lurking lol. However Scott's reply to mindgamer also implies he is actively lurking.

Pretty hypocritical since apparently I'm worthy of a vote yet you say lurking is not enough to rise someone to very high on one's scumlist

This bugs me.

Unvote

Vote Xscorpion

I'll start here

[DTMaster]

@Iceninja

How is a case on Crazy and a defence of pwnman damaging to the town again? You seem to say that my case on Crazy was anti-town to make.

Also, I find it interesting that you've dodged my point about you being confused about Crazy's case. About 3 times, I might add. However, you seem to be shaping up in your scum hunting and your understanding of the game so as I've stated earlier, my suspicion of you has dropped.

Because i'm not confused about it. The original case was cut and dry. I'm was pointing things people are over looking in regards to the pwnman case. Ie. that people were not analyzing the pwnman wagon, they did not notice SK's remarks about mindgamer and we have very, very, lurky town.

I believe XScorpion is actively lurking, throwing down useless posts that just seem to add to his post count without actually saying anything. Out of 7 posts made by XScorpion, only 1 or 2 is even relevant to the game at all. I'm not counting RVS. It is one thing to throw your vote all over the place if you're like DT and explaining it. XScorpion is still holding a vote for Kerrigan with literally no justification for it. I just can't see how this guy is town, and even if he is town, he's simply going to hurt us down the line.

I agree here. I'll give you an XScorpion meta where I modded for him.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12859

Something is off with his recent posts. Simillar style, but something is off. I'll need to do a reread on this - Self note.

[DTMaster]

@Scorpion
So Dark is more deserving of attention right now? (and you in the same token). Why?


@Nacho

Current Lurkers:
Crazy
DarkLightA
Deer
Mindgamer
pwnman

RayFrost

Sanhora
Scott Brosius
XScorpion

I replaced frost so you better update that list.

2. So pwnman isn't stupid but plain scummy?

3. You shouldn't form scum links since they are a dangerous pitfall to fall under.

@Mindgamer

1. See Nacho's list, if the above people posted better, yes Ice will fall under scrutiny right now. However, keeping your eye on him shall be sufficient untill a flip helps set the picture up.

2. If you can point that out your Scott case with quotes

then Scott is more useless then pwnnman because pwnman at least outlined a stance in terms of his vote

3. Sanhora might be active lurking. I'm going to check

Self note. Use secret weapon on lurkers tomorrow

4. !! Your scum list/town list argument. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Town argument. I need to double check some statistics from my previous games.

@Pwnman
Too townie argument? Wut?

@Ice/Dark
with Rayfrost: Actually Ice raises a good point. It's more accurate to say Ray/DTM blah blah blah -> given that I posted much more. Dark dislike stirring the pot around hm....

@Scorpion
Rayfrost is gone, dead, I stole her spot in the spotlight. D:

[DTMaster]

@Scorp
See nacho's list. Or the current wagons?

[DTMaster]

@Scott
Wait. What? Isn't your argument more applicable to Mindgamer then Dark given with what you quoted.?

[DTMaster]

@Scott
1. So in your argument you were referring to both players then?

Vote: Mindgamer

Just starting somewhere.

Ah, what ever...

unvote

There are better candidates of being scum.


--------

So, it's on to the next one:

Vote: StK

This rubs me the wrong way. It looks like you are just throwing your vote around in an attempt to see if a BW will stick. There is no reasoning behind it.

Vote: DarkLightA

2. Yes DK's post is very scummy

@Darklight
1. Why are you more concerned about looking good, rather then scum hunting? You started in Augest 09, this is March 10. I expected better posts then this.

2. Given that you have someone left on your scum list to analyze, why aren't you doing it now? Vote wise, and from your current posts.

[DTMaster]

Unvote

Vote: SaintKerrigan

He is actively lurking in this game.

Use this:
http://www.msutils.net/search.php

Searched SaintKerrigan

He posted in other games, and he analyzed in other games.

Discuss

[DTMaster]

@Nacho

^^ Need I say more. SK has been active in other games, but claims to be busy in this game. SK also flaked out on another ice/fire mafia game (though he turned out to be town. Read mod errored open 201).

The timing of his replacement with my accusation = very bad against SK.

@Dana
Sup

[DTMaster]

@Mindgamer

Um, wut?

"check"

Ok, now why did you attack me for this when:

a. SK's last post I analyzed was Tue Mar 09 2010 06:19:00
b. I posted at Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:57 pm
c. The replacements began Tue Mar 09 2010 21:49:00

Lets see in a span of 5 hours SK replaced out of the games. However you ignored March 8th when SK posted here

All right, sorry for not showing up yesterday, guys. I'm going to do a reread now.

Said he had midterms on the 9th so he didn't post his catchup but had time to post on the 8th with the last analysis being on Mon Mar 08 2010 17:26:0.

He stopped playing those games. Confused Why are you pushing a SaintKerrigan lynch with such poor reasoning? 'The timing of his replacement with my accusation'. This implies that SaintKerrigan-scum replaced out because of one vote... what?

No I had evidence that he was

actively lurking in this game, not that he was scum who gave up. That is far more supperior to what you call my case is.

Now I'm sorry, but tell me again how on the 8th this wasn't a sign of

active lurking

. Also, if you read in context of the argument, and the timing of SK's replacment it looks extremely bad in context. Seriously,

good job ignoring my initial argument, before you do that again you had better attack the whole active lurking bit which is the core of my original vote on SK.

That is when my vote was on SK. I followed up when SK replaced out. Oh hay IceNinja agrees with me too, but you don't attack him. You attack the guy who put the first vote when he had evidence to push a case on SK. lol.

TD:DR, mindgamer doesn't understand why I voted SK. SK still demonstrated active lurking, however the mass replacement is a sign that he was that busy with life. I'll let the replacement post. Mindgamer's defence on SK is noted since he is chainsawing heavily on me. If SK/Replacement flips scum, it is likely Mindgamer is scum with SK because he ignored my initial vote, and only attacked my side comment (aka he ignored my full case).

Which leads me to say: Mindgamer you are also tracking SK via my tool since you knew SK replaced out of everything. Why did you leave out my initial comment about SK being an active lurker when I clearly showed SK posting elsewhere?

[DTMaster]

Oh forgot to:

unvote

[DTMaster]

@Dana

I see less "scum hunting" and more criticizing of my "game play". But I'm still waiting on that case.

@Scott
Hold on, it's a quoting error that you didn't EBWOP? Why didn't you? Why didn't you say this when I attacked you for said quote initially

[DTMaster]

@Mod
Select: Attack.
Target LL.

Attack is not a valid action.
Your actions: Splash, Struggle.

[DTMaster]

I use Splash on LL until I run out of PP. Then I struggle him to death

I hope you mean your own death. Locke Lamora is a lvl 100 Metapod who used Harden 20 times.

[DTMaster]

A proper post now.

@LL
I agree. However given my experience with you, I am keeping my eye on you.

@Mindgamer
Hold on, are you trying to tell us that:

'^^ Need I say more. SK has been active in other games, but claims to be busy in this game. SK also flaked out on another ice/fire mafia game (though he turned out to be town. Read mod errored open 201).

Is not evidence for active lurking because SK just replaced out?

Define to me what you would call active lurking. When I see someone saying for the past week that he would contribute on this game and he goes behind our back and actively does analysis in other games, this is what I call

Active lurking

My proof, is within SK's posts. You even admitted to SK posting elsewhere. Tell me, why are you so feveriously defending SK, yet you just ignore this fact? All you do is repeat that SK replaced out. You just say that SK's posts in other games is just a bad reason to attack SK and vote him. I told you

March 8: SK said he would post here. He posted analysis in other games. I will quote from said games if the Mod will allow me. This game is ongoing. If I have the ability to quote someone, in another game, that is ongoing, while he was playing this game, then this is all I need to say

I don't see ICEninja pushing a SaintKerrigan lynch. lol.

Look at this

Wow, Kerrigan has been extremely active in Mafia 110 lately, and completely lurking here. That is indeed suspicious.

You do realize there are four scum in this game right? Thinking independently is the key to victory. Don't let your judgment be clouded by what others say.

Maybe I'm missing your point here, but this statement seemed to be completely irrelevant to the rest of your post, and just thrown in there.

Points against you in this argument. However, thank you for this point, I will need to address Iceninja because this is scummy of Ice. Ice agrees my case is correct. However:

Why doesn't Ice do anything about the SK case given that he agrees with me?

See the line where: "SK is suspicious"

I don't see any follow through on that. That to me is scummy.

Also: I like it how you admit

You dislike a SK lynch, given that LL posted this:

Just finished a quick read-through, some early thoughts:

-I genuinely cannot believe how circular and infuriating that argument over Mindgamer's 'scumslip' and pwnman following SK was. I don't think anyone comes out of that situation looking good, to be honest. As far as I can tell, pwnman doesn't know what's going on at all and SK just picked up on a weak reason to vote Mindgamer (which he admitted was weak and makes it even more crazy that this debate has taken up half of the game).
-Too many people going 'look at this list of lurkers'. Ask them some questions, build a case, ask the mod for a prod/replacement. Don't just say 'you're lurking, contribute more'.
-I'm getting a scummy read from Deer. Not a whole lot of content, seems like he's trying to cover all the bases in his opinions (see ISO 7 & 11, for example) and I think he hops from wagon to wagon without really following through on the suspicions from his previous vote.
-ICEninja also concerns me a bit, mainly because of an air of caution. This could just be playstyle based but I've learnt to be wary of anyone who says they don't put their vote around until they've carefully considered all the information.

Will read through again and provide more thoughts but for now:

Vote: Deer

What happened to your suspicions of Crazy and Mindgamer?

I find it fascinating that you dislike my pressure on SK. Yes you showed me that SK replaced out of every game except for his modding duties. Hence I unvoted since this is a sign that SK was busy. However, my case was valid given when I made it, I did it before SK's replacement.

I also find it fascinating that in this entire argument

you never once said I was scummy. Here you are arguing against me, voting me, but at no time did you call me scummy

When new information rises, yes you can say : XYZ argument was wrong. Like here.

I made my post/vote/case before SK's replacement. I saw that he posted else where. I accuse him of lurking. SK replaces out. I say this is a sign of scum flaking. Mindgamer says: wait, you are wrong, he wasn't active lurking and your case is wrong blah blah, why are you attacking SK. I say: SK showed signs of active lurking, my case is valid in context of when/how I made it. This new information says: ok SK is really bus though so I'll give him and the replacement the benefit of the doubt.

So much roflcopter stuff in this part of your post. It's interesting how you're already making plans for the future. SaintKerrigan isn't even close to being lynched, but you're already talking about his flip, and the day afterwards. Why would a townie plan so much?

Hey, first. 1. Why are you so concerned about my push on SK's wagon given that she wasn't close to a lynch.

Secondly, I said: If a SK lynch falls through, I'm keeping my eye on you. I said if SK flips scum, I would go back and reread to see if there was a Mindgamer link with SK/dana. Voicing out who I would look into = not a guarantee I would live to see that through. If I die, then I left behind my notes for the town to reread over, hence:

If they find something in my posts that's worth discussing tomorrow then I'm darn sure I'm leaving something behind if I die. If I live, then I'm making self notes to analyze people in more depth during rereads.

Hmm, this is not really a very exciting game. Let's put some thoughts into this game.

If you were a daytime Cop, who would you investigate right now? And why?

You think I'm scum right? Hence the vote? Why are you so concerned about people's scum list again? This reads as: fishing for people's town list while attacking me. Cop investigation lists = gut scum lists = townie targets for scum. The timing of this question, in mid DTM attack, and saying that this game is boring makes me think scum-mindgamer.

@Iceninja
Above: Via Mindgamer quote, you called out SK as suspicious. Why didn't you follow up on this?

XScorpion, you're still my number 2 suspect, but if you start playing this game and quit being an idiot,

Yes your attack on Xscoprion is valid, but hmm I find the lack of distinction between "scummy" and "stupidity" lacking here.

@Nacho

I haven't liked DT since his attack on SK, which was entirely strawmanning. It was obvious that since his ISO 23 that he needed to read the game in order to do a catchup post; DT posted that his posting in other games was obviously active lurking,

even though he wasn't behind in those games

. His assumption that SK was replacing out due to his case shows a bit of townie confidence, so gut saves him a bit, assuming he returns to his normal level of posting.

Um ok, so you'd let SK slide by saying: "I'll catch up" plenty of time while SK is up to date in other games before replacing out? I'll like to point the bolded part. Tell me something:

We have a case of two different SK metas in two different ongoing games. We have one game where SK has been actively contributing, like normal, and with the bolded part up to date in those games. Given that he:

V/LA from now until Friday.

This is legtimate. Give him an extra day or so due to timezones, personal reasons etc.

I'm not in a good mental mood, guys. I'll hopefully feel better tomorrow and do my catch-up then.

Ok give him a day. Recover, etc, etc.

All right, sorry for not showing up yesterday, guys. I'm going to do a reread now.

Posting to say that I'm extremely sleep-deprived and cranky from psych tests, so I'm only going to be handling my modding duties today.

Mod: I'm sorry, but I need to replace out. Reality is catching up with me, and I'm afraid I just don't have time to play any games. I'm really sorry about this!

Now between this, had SK done the same in other games, it's obvious to see that SK is busy in life. Now reread your comment. On the 8th, between his hectic life he chose to post else where as evident in your bolded comment, but because the above it wasn't warrent the attack?

Only after, his contributions on the 8th in 110 did he replace out in all of his games. The timing of my case was around the 8th/9th and SK's replacement in all her games wasn't brought to attention until Mindgamer said so a few days later via application.

So when I made it, I'm strawmanning SK given that I saw the above at the time?

I find this argument only valid: if you assumed that I knew SK replaced out of all his games, but I would hardly say that during the context of when I made my vote/argument. There is certainly more information now to criticize that my case fell through, hence my unvote.

SK needed to reread yes. SK needed to post, yes. SK posting in other games while he needed to reread here, wait a minute something is fishy here.

@Nacho Part 2
Whew.
Hey looky looky. Contradiction.

Alright, first of all, we as a town need to get organized. We have 5 days until deadline, and our voting is all over the place; we don't even have a bandwagon formed as of yet.

Mindgamer has taken a tiny little bit of a turn since I suspected him last, so he's not the lynch of the day.

I'm not sure about DLA. I really, really, don't like the AtoE in his last post, but I have to get a better read on him.

ICE, however, is my favorite of RC's lynch choices. The reason I don't like him is a recent ISO on him; he is certainly a king of posting long posts without posting any content whatsoever. Take for example, ISO 24. He responds to Mindgamer in the first two lines, then continues on and overexplains to make his posts seem more impressive-looking, which is a great tactic for scum to use in a lurkish game like this. So,
Unvote, Vote: ICEninja.

Why aren't you questioning Dark given that you need a better read on him? There is a strong wagon on Dark atm, and maybe Deer. Hmm? Or are you content in letting other people do the work for you in generating the reads given that he has a lot of pressure on him

@Scorpion
I'm giving Dana the replacement halo/grace time to post. It's the weekend right now so it's not a good time for activity. However my vote is more valid on Dark = for outlined case above. Mindgamer = for his DTM is wrong case, but never actually shows how my case was wrong. Somehow It's warrant a vote. Deer for LL's very valid case. It does read as flying under the radar and we need better reads on Deer.

@Scott
Granted, and ouch. Good suspicion is good.

@Dark

That unvote was more of an attempt to prove that you don't get anywhere without starting somewhere. In that example, I tried to get a base vote, and get information based on it.

Hold on, you were trying to prove

theory to us. You weren't trying to scum hunt via your vote/unvote reactions from people?

The eff? Summarize your conclusions now please.

While I wait for pending questions: I like the deer wagon. Pressure +1 is definitely needed in this avenue.

Vote Deer

[DTMaster]

@Red

1. In terms of your statement with SK: Yes because SK was drawing some heat via and the pwnman wagon was dying. You can argue many things: like is this a sign that SK leaving a vote on a wagon? or is this a sign that SK was busy. This wasn't the only reason. Orginally I felt

Unvote: ICEninja. Vote: Mindgamer.

Serious vote. Look at his first post and see if you can figure out why.

I'm pretty sure that's a joke, not a scumslip.

I don't think so.

Why specifically accuse him of being Fire Mafia? Seems like an Ice Mafia slip-up to me.

^I found this exchange suspicious given that: SK seemed to be interested in Ice-scum slipups. Below

@ Deer: I considered it a slip of the tongue.

At the same time, I think I finally got the joke (ICEninja being a Fire Mafia is obviously self-contradictory, to the point where it's funny).

Unvote: Mindgamer. Vote: Pwnman

because him thinking Mindgamer could be either Fire Mafia or Ice Mafia means he isn't actually agreeing with my argument, which was that Mindgamer was Ice Mafia, specifically. He was just using my argument as an excuse to vote Mindgamer, and that's fishy.

Yeah, never consider the fact that I thought it was a scum slip up too.

You argued that your argument is the same as mine, which is impossible since my argument was that Mindgamer was Ice Mafia specifically while you stated he could be either Fire or Ice Mafia. Thus, it sure looks like you were just piggybacking on my vote, and then tried to use my argument to explain why you thought Mindgamer was mafia. That feels scummy.

When I read this exchange a few things went on.

a. A 4 man wagon formed on pwnman. Yes a viable wagon. However the circumstances and the arguments were quite iffy.

b. Scott stated the "piggy back argument" and SK/Crazy repeats this. I find it funny how they don't justify their argument on them selves, especially since the wagon on Mindgamer was made of very few people.

c. It reads as SK is distancing himself from his argument.

Add on the V/LA (this is justified), then the promises of posts, and other activity = very bad against SK. However, I've backed off for now to allow Dana to post (replacements should get a 1 post grace period to say something). Plus I read in the queue where SK inned and out of a game where he was too busy to play a game and forgot this. Hence let replacement talk.


2. I only like answering the lynch question, but I dislike your: "Who would you not lynch" question because this reads as: fishing for town reads in a nice collected page.

Personally I'm in favour of a Darklight lynch, and I'm using my vote to get a stronger tell on Deer. I'm liking the case against Deer but I'll require some rereads first, he would be a nice secondary choice. The latter of your questions should be obvious lol.

[DTMaster]

Urk wrong game, can you delete this post?

I won't delete this post, but I'll delete the one above this post. (It was a post meant for another game, for those of you who are following along at home). ~Nik

[DTMaster]

@Ice

I feel that the argument against Mindgamer is fairly strong, and although he has made a post recently that gave me a stronger town read on him, I still feel like he would have a high likelihood of flipping scum.

Hold on: You agree that the mindgamer case is strong, but he has a town read. The eff? This is major fence sitting right here. First off,

Do you find mindgamer scummy/townie at this point in time. Given your stance can you point to specific posts about this

I dislike this, it's too passive for my liking.

@Mindgamer
Hey hey,

Actually, being a good cop is not about investigating suspects. It's about investigating people who are hard to get a read on. Is it bad to talk about people who are hard to get a read on? That would take the discussion take to a new level, which is needed imo. Let's face it: We haven't achieved anything with our current discussions yet.

You are

seriously back tracking in our discussions right now

. You say there isn't anything substantial to analyze, but at the same time call me out on being scummy.

Let me ask you this: Why are you complaining about this when you aren't productively scum hunting/attacking me right now?

You say you find me scummy, you say there is an issue about people who you can't get reads on.

You for one should answer your own question and pressure/attack/question/scum hunt those people you have issues with. Your question = laziness. Town shouldn't be lazy in scum hunting. Scum can afford to be lazy because they can't cross kill in this setup.

Our debate circles around SK and the replacement. I've unvoted to allow Dana to speak up and SK demonstrated that he replaced out in all his games. Hence my: oh, halo of replacement I take back my original case. Reread me. I did that. >> My case was valid. SK's timing was bad. We have a replacement. Let's her her talk.

SaintKerrigan replaced out in post 238. In post 240 you indicated in response to Nachomamm8 that you were still supportive of your 'active lurking' case

Yes until you pointed out

SK replaced out of all his games where I shortly unvoted

. Hello, earth to mindgamer, am I still pushing for an SK/Dana lynch right now?

ITT: Mindgamer is more concerned about defending SK when:

a. We have dana who replaced him.
b. I'm else where in my scum hunting.

@Dark

Firstly, I tend to look for vote reactionos, not too much on unvote reactions. However, I do note people's reactions during all times, and my AtE's as you call them.
Thirdly, as Nachomamma said, a pressure vote with scum hunting [NOT LYNCHING!!!] motives gets crushed when under suspicion.

Ok, now tell me, what is the summary of your reactions. When you voted/unvoted gambit, who did you determine was town. Who did you determine was scummy. I asked for a summary of your conclusions based on your "voting style". You didn't answer me.

Regarding the Deer issue: I'm not in favour of a Deer lynch, but re-reading his meta, I see some scummy points. I will be on his wagon at DL if nothing new happens, to get the game started.

Um, explain this meta call. With links. You pretty much said: Deer is scummy, but I don't want this lynch.

@Dana
Did you reread everything? Something bugs me with that post, especially with these time stamps:

Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:18 pm

Didn't realize my vote was on someone.

unvote

Time to read the new material.

Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:51 pm

Oh, man. An ISO read of Deer gives me that "I'm going to soil my shorts I'm so scared of the way this guy's posting" kind of gut feeling. This guy just has to be scum.

vote: Deer

Thanks for the grace period, guys. To tell the truth, I'm not interested in trying to say why SK decided to say what he/she decided to say. You must make your judgment based on his/her conduct as well as on mine, but I don't feel a need to defend SK's actions. What I will do to change your opinion is simply help town and not act scummy.

I like how you just focus on Deer. To me, this catch up post reads as:

someone who just read the recent pages.
someone who just isoed said leading wagon.
someone who failed to quote.

For the 3rd one, can you show me how Deer is doing this?

[DTMaster]

@Ice

ONE POST gave me a town read. Everything else makes me feel like he's scum. That one post gives me pause to see him lynched, but other than that I feel like Mindgamer is probably one of the best lynches for today. I don't need to point out anything, because I've mentioned more than once that I find him scummy, and I've also called him the second best lynch for today. This is not fence sitting, this is not backtracking. This is just questioning my previous (and current) read on him because he posted something that made me feel somewhat better about him. One post isn't enough to reverse the case against him, however, so my scum read on him stands.

Sorry, but can you quote/link/recite "this one post". I'm searching, but it's buried in your iso.

For the most part, I feel that the argument against Mindgamer is fairly strong, and although he has made a post recently that gave me a stronger town read on him, I still feel like he would have a high likelihood of flipping scum.

This, is too vague of a partial town-case on Mindgamer. Explanations on what post makes you hesitant to lynch Mindgamer, and why please.

@Nacho

Laziness =/= Scum. Reading a game and posting is a lot more work than reading a few pages and posting. So, you overblew your case on him because you predicated an entire case on one indiscretion, and you really didn't take HUMAN NATURE into account.

You admitted to being lazy ok, tell me again: Why are you justifying yourself as lazy to not scum hunt Dark again?

You had issues, you wanted more reads. You are complaining about them, so why aren't you solving your own problems good sir? I find your defense to be quite weak considering in the time you had to read my post, make an accusation, call out on a "red flag" you could have done the same to dark, pressed for stronger reads, and scum hunted.

I'm sorry, but your excuse of "human nature" failed the moment you did the following in your post:

Reading a game and posting is a lot more work than reading a few pages and posting.

Again: Why aren't you pressing on Dark? You have time to counter an argument against me, but you don't have time to do it on Dark? Plus can you elaborate on your lynch list/uncomfortable to lynch list?

[DTMaster]

@Nacho

I'm saying that just because SK was lazy, he isn't scum

So I'm not entitled to call him out on it? Hello, if you see some anti-town, potentially scummy activity afoot you call people out on it. You might as well call every one "naturally lazy due to human nature" and let Icegamer off the hook for "not taking solid stances via his vote".

Also, the whole purpose of a pressure vote is not letting everyone know that it's a pressure vote. I believe I'd said something to that extent as well...

It also doesn't help that Deer hasn't posted during the activity fest it has been in the last 48 hours.

@Mindgamer:

I said this game wasn't exciting, not that there's not anything to analyze. Strawman much?

This is what you posted:

Hmm, this is not really a very exciting game. Let's put some thoughts into this game.

If you were a daytime Cop, who would you investigate right now? And why?

I want everyone to answer this question. No cookies.

Oi, again the purpose of this was? If there was things to analyze why are you putting a "general discussion" question out there.

Repeat: In your first post after the replacement you still supported your case.

Because when I made it: I felt it was legitimate. When Dana replaced, I let Dana talk. Hello, earth to mindgamer learn to understand that

context is important too

It was you who came up with the idea of tracking SaintKerigan because you saw he was active in other games. Despite taking the effort to follow him when he was active in this game, you stopped this when he replaced out? Why didn't you check his other games then? I shouldn't have needed to point that out.

So I'm expected to track SK every minute of my posts? There was a day diffrence in between my case to, SK replacing out, to your attack. Hello: If it's not obvious, I use the search tool when I feel that activity is lacking. You graciously pointed out that SK replaced out of all his games. I confirmed this via search tool. I unvoted. I let the replacement in. When I made the case

during the time, it seriously looked like I caught an active lurker who wanted to weasel his way out v/ia replacement. March 8th

Speaking of which: I should use this on Scott/Deer/Dana right now

Not willing to lynch DarkLightA.

Actually I should reread but: did you outline a town-case on DarklightA? Given that you are unwilling to lynch him, you have to find him townie in some way. Given that Darklight hasn't made conclusive who he thinks is scum based on his "different methods of scum hunting"

@Dark
Ok, enough nice guy. You said you were generating reactions via your game play, and your vote.

Clearly state your conclusions on who you found scummy/townie based on your gambit play.

This is the 2nd time you are saying this:

In my games I tend to not really care about the other players' opinions about me. I'm more focussed on using different ways to find scum, one of which you pointed out above.

@LL: I believe I've answered this exact question before: I have a tendency to be the D1 lynch because I just into situations, but now, in both of my games, I'm trying to be a bit more helpful. Note though: I do have opinions which I haven't posted here. It's part of my scum hunting, and I test them out. Often they don't work out, other times they might. Additionally, as I've also said before: When I vote to put pressure on someone during scum hunting, the pressure gets wrecked when the vote gets questioned.

I find it more helpful to contribute over several days than getting lynched D1. Don't you?

Yes, I'm trying to find enough to build strong cases. Then they'll be shared, provided they're not worthless.

Oh, and the missing word is 'jump' XD

^^ Conclusions now. This says: I am trying to get reads. This does not say: What my reads are. Saying you are trying to scum hunt, then actually doing it is very different.

Unvote

Vote: Darklight

@Revision to Lynch list
As it stands right now, I'd rather Lynch Dark or Dana. Deer and Dana require more posts first, but it's been like 36 hours ish? Too much hyperactivity going on makes it feel like a longer time period has passed.

[DTMaster]

Urk: I wanted to preview. EBWOP coming later!

[DTMaster]

@Dark

XScorpion and StK/dana have been leg.

Excuse my lack of slang, but leg? Huh?

@Nacho con't
1. Sorry but I just remember a huge post of Ice-scum rather then Dark-town.

And I have definitely worked on getting a better read on DLA; look at that huge post defending him...

Can you point me in the right direction?

2. For expanding on a LL case, you are doing more Ice-scum case building rather then telling us about your LL case. Plus this is a first I heard of this.

3.

Mafia's a game of manipulation... I wanted him to feel bad and unvote because he was voting for a townie.

Why are you manipulating Dark? Shouldn't it be: You wanted to show Dark that ScorpionX was townie, not that you wanted to manipulated him based on his emotions. This is a scum slip: very Freudian since it's part of the scum's mindset.

The most effective townies come through team work, and manipulation of scum into making heavy scum slips. Not manipulation of fellow townies.

@Mindgamer cont'

"snipped" no reads "snipped " No, I didn't say that. What the heck?

Actually, being a good cop is not about investigating suspects. It's about investigating people who are hard to get a read on. Is it bad to talk about people who are hard to get a read on? That would take the discussion take to a new level, which is needed imo. Let's face it:

We haven't achieved anything with our current discussions yet.[/b

^^ Here. We haven't done anything? We haven't gotten good reads? You wanted the cop question to look at players with weak reads? Hello

We have no cop. Here in bold is the part where there is more complaints and less actual actions. You should have done your latest post here where you put solid stances and solid reasons for them. You find something wrong here, you don't just sit around doing nothing about it. You act on it.

This issue though is less dramatic due to your latest post.

You're right, I should stop asking questions. /sarcasm

Lol not what I meant. I'm saying your cop question is lazy. You shouldn't toy around with that question, rather you should go for the juicy ones. Like in your 341, the ones that actually create stronger responses.


Also, what a weak way to jump off your DTM vote in the end. I haven't produced content? If anything you should be getting strong reads off me in our exchange. I've definitely had strong stances throughout this game. You can sum this up quite nicely as:

Neutral on Pwn-man (began as Newb read on pwn -> can interprete scum-pwn due to him hiding behind case)
Disliked Crazy -> Scum link between Crazy and SK.
Disliked SK -> found evidence to active lurking -> Scum read -> Replacement time at time of case -> big scum read -> Mindgamer's post about SK's busy schedule -> Give SK/Dana grace time.
Dana Grace time -> Dislike Dana's first post
Dark Scum -> Grace time to pressure Deer -> Dark-scum for lacking posts
Suspicious of Ice , agree with the lack of stance argument.
Dislike Deer posts -> Pressure on Deer -> Just dislike Deer atm.

[DTMaster]

@Nacho
I'll reread but I need sleep for now. Will post after my midterms, wish me luck <3

@RC
Hey, what do you know Deer has been posting in other games. A lot in fact. Dana has been AWOL since Monday. Good catch.

Unvote

Vote: Deer

[DTMaster]

Oh god. Sigh.... Now is not the time

Also 370 is a bad scum slip. It reads as scum coordinating other scum in their NKs (given that they can't NK each other).

@Mindgamer
Again: Deer posting in other games, ignoring this one, pending questions. RC pointed this out? Should I not call people on this? Hello? Deer has been avoiding lots of questions right now. Why are you not calling out Ice here either?

Deer posted in other games for your information, should I just let people slide for not posting? You wouldn't against me. If I posted nothing for half a week then I would hope town would address this via prods/questions/blah.

@Dark
Hello, do you realize that in order to lynch scum You would need to convince at least 4 town aligned members to vote said scum member. Withholding information (when A you aren't even an investigative role) is scummy because in this game:

the only one who can gain role information is the doctor, who claimed, and scum based on their night actions

.

This is a totally mountainous game where

scum cannot cross kill each other

. Aka, your post reads: Your case isn't good enough to lynch the scum whom you are hunting with said reactions. I smell vapourcase here. If you noticed: the tool of the town is this very thread.

@LL

My problem with DLA is that I really don't understand the way he's trying to play or what he's aiming to achieve from it. He claims that he's storing all this information away about this voting and unvoting and the responses to that, but it's difficult to assess his interest in scumhunting when we don't get to see any of that coming out in the form of cases. The fact that that Xscorp vote/unvote in particular wasn't even part of his strategy makes me wonder where he's being genuine and where he's just being easily talked out of votes.

This is actually very legitmate: Given that VC analysis works when we have flips to analyze. Confirmed alignments, draw links, blah blah blah

If you consider this post by Dark:

We won't get anywhere without a lynch. Deadline has possibly fallen next time I check this thread. Deer isn't my preferrable lynch, but I'm in favor of it. No lynches on day 1 are absolutely horrible. Doesn't seem like Deer's going to contribute much anyway.

It feels like he's trying to draw conclusions from votes. However complete VC analysis requires flips. The amount of "what if scenerios that Dark is storing" would be very large given that we don't have any confirmed people yet. This quote reads more like: "I won't get anywhere without a lynch" in terms of his "case"

@Mod
Prod Dana. Nao.

[DTMaster]

Unvote

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: I should say: Dana should post now given the claim.

[DTMaster]

@Nacho

1. In the other rendition of Fire/Ice scum (the canceled Fire/Ice mafia which I came from) Fire and Ice scum can't kill each other. Let's confirm this via mod.

2. First page, read the role mechanics of Fire and Ice scum. If both scum members attack the same person, the kill is canceled out.

This reads as subtle direction to scum if this is Nacho-scum from the other team. See the part in bold especially.

Nobody counterclaim. There's no need with two scum factions;

one of the scum will take care of him...

@Mod

Fire and Ice scum cannot kill each other correct?

Vote: Dana

For someone who's been "catching up" someone obviously didn't read the Mod extension that Nikanor gave due to St.Patrick's day.

[DTMaster]

Hahahaha! I called SK fire at the start. /gloat.

Right now the doc should counter claim given that: we have scum down on both ends. Otherwise Deer is confirmed town given his claim.

However: Fire-scum is playing like a vig given his Darklight kill. This troubles me.

[DTMaster]

Let's do a quick VC analysis from the past few days. I'm going to assume Deer is confirmed town without a CC.

Day One Final Vote Count

danakillsu

(7) - XScorpion, Nachomamma8, DTMaster, Locke Lamora,

DarkLightA

, Mindgamer, Bio Hazard

DarkLightA

(5) - Scott Brosius,

Deer,

RedCoyote,

ICEninja,

danakillsu

Not Voting (0)


Vote Count 1.28

DarkLightA

(5) - Scott Brosius,

Deer,

, RedCoyote,

ICEninja,

,

danakillsu

danakillsu

(5) - XScorpion, Nachomamma8, DTMaster, Locke Lamora,

DarkLightA

Mindgamer (1) - Bio Hazard

ICEninja,

(1) - Mindgamer

Vote Count 1.26

DarkLightA

(5) - Scott Brosius,

danakillsu

, RedCoyote,

ICEninja,

,

danakillsu

danakillsu

(2) - XScorpion, Nachomamma8

Deer,

(1) -

DarkLightA

Mindgamer (1) - Bio Hazard

Not Voting (3) - Mindgamer, DTMaster, Locke Lamora

Vote Count 1.25

DarkLightA

(4) - Scott Brosius,

Deer,

, RedCoyote,

ICEninja,

Deer,

(3) - Locke Lamora,

danakillsu

,

DarkLightA

danakillsu

(2) - XScorpion, Nachomamma8
Mindgamer (1) - Bio Hazard

Not Voting (2) - Mindgamer, DTMaster

[DTMaster]

Vote Count 1.26
DarkLightA (5) - Scott Brosius, Deer, RedCoyote, ICEninja, danakillsu
danakillsu (2) - XScorpion, Nachomamma8
Deer (1) - DarkLightA
Mindgamer (1) - Bio Hazard

This is the real 1.26, messed up x.x.

[DTMaster]

@LL
I'd rather put the power in lynches because that puts the power to kill scum in the town's hands. A CC = caught scum.

@Red
If you think Fire bussed themselves, who do you think bussed?

@VC
It might be worth while to complete a full VC analysis with what we have and go from there.

[DTMaster]

Actually Mindgamer is looking very town given that both SK and Dark voted him. I can't tell if this is a distancing ploy from a faction, but both players actually pushed in that direction.

[DTMaster]

@Bio
Fire scum is actively hunting for ice. That means a couple of things:

a. Fire scum is in a comfortable position right now since Dark was a favorite lynch.
b. Fire scum recognizes (after Nikanor answered the cross kill answer) that he is at a disadvantage due to Ice cross kill (again being the solo scum left in the pair).

a and b to me suggests: scumz in my town reads. I dislike this.

@Red
1. They didn't have too. I find it odd you really jumped on this idea. If we revisit the vote counts from 1.26 to the final votes (outlined in my post) the Dark lynch could have went against his way. The final Dana/SK wagon didn't draw much attention until the very end. Considering we would need to revisit the busing angle anyways in the VC analysis, it's also very, very unlikely that scum would choose to bus themselves in a two man team

unless they were desperate or unless their partner was that bad

2. What's interesting is that both players pushed for Mindgamer, however dropped it via: Joke/etc.


I know for sure that: LL is least likely to be fire scum (due to SaintKerring really, really hating pwnman) , ScorpionX is less likely to be scum on both ends (due to Both parties attacked him: Dark actually voted him and SK actually FoSed him). The rest comes from cross voting. I also noticed that both players really disliked IceNinja.

I'm willing to say ScorpionX looks very good right now.

@LL
Actually: Both Dana and Dark pushed for a Deer lynch. If it makes you feel better, this makes me think that Deer is definitely our doctor and all the better to confirm his alignment.

[DTMaster]

O hai: Dana dislikes me and Scorpion. I'm starting to like the idea that Scoprion looks quite townie.

[DTMaster]

How is Nacho possibly not ice to that post? XScorp was a favourite target by Darklight so I think Scorpion is more likely to be possibly not ice.

[DTMaster]

If you guys seriously don't believe me about Scorpion here is some proof via Dark.

I am from NY.

*Epic facepalm at myself for not looking properly at your avatar*

Well, the date next to my name says August 2009 so I'll go with that.

*Epic facepalm at myself for not looking properly at your info*

DarkLight, how do you feel that gaining someone's preferences on roles or other games they play starts discussion? Doesn't it seem too much like rolefishing, as the responses probably aren't going to merit a counter response?

Well, I'd say that any questions trigger conversation, and that it's a nice addition to isos anyway.


----- @ the pwnman issue -------

Okay, this wagon is total BS.

Look:

Pwn's vote is now hiding in all these posts and nobody took the opportunity to ask for his reason. Pwn, can you state it?

My reasons was for Mindgamer's first post.

Vote ICE

Obvouisly Fire Mafia

I think that he is either Ice Mafia or Fire Mafia. So yeah

Sure, not well explained, but not worth a BW!

Pwn says it's because of mindgamer's post which seems random. So my thoughts are that it's just a misinterpretation of a random vote. It's normal for newer players.

Vote: XScorpion

for starting off this crap.

Vote: XScorpion

....Seriously dude??

Darklight, why are you voting Scorpion? You're better than that

I just find his play totally stupid. I'm in to lynch stupid players if it's for the good of the town.

I dunno, maybe you're right, and that there's someone else, staying in the shadows. I'll keep my eyes open.

unvote

for now.

HoS: XScorpion

You're not off the hook.

[DTMaster]

@Red Coyote
1. Um wut? I expected a: Whoops wrong link. Hhaha. Not a you caught me ahaha! What made you think Nacho was "not ice" or "not either scum" hm? You linked to Iceninja to a Nacho post so I don't see your point on how a

a townie would confirm an alignment check via his arguments/bandwagon.

2.

The most accurate reads are the ones where Fire and Ice are adamament about a person's lynch

Must remind this to everyone. Everything else renders the person ambiguous to their alignment until the last scum member flips from either groups.

3. I replaced RF.

@Nacho
1 . Don't forget:

Scum can scum hunt in this game. Fire scum is actively searching for ice. You can tell that from the kill choice

.

Plus you forget: RedCoyote replaced Crazy so your read is incomplete.

2. Can you show me how Red formed said DLA wagon while Scott just joined in. Even page refrences will help narrow down the total rereads (ugh)

@Mod:

Prod Bio, Deer, Mind, Xscorp please

Sure. ~Nik

[DTMaster]

@Red
Um no. You didn't read my statement properly.

The most accurate reads are the ones where Fire scum and Ice scum were both willing to lynch said person: AKA. Who DLA and Who Dana wanted to lynch

How did you associate Scott as both Fire and Ice when DLA flipped ice scum really, really escapes me. This to me reads as deflection back to Scott.

The most accurate reads are the ones where Fire and Ice are adamament about a person's lynch

You argue that Scott wasn't adamant about DLA's lynch?

@Nacho
Earth to nacho.

Ice was townie? Shouldn't you review the DLA lynch again given that you know 3/4 for members in that lynch party?

@Town
Gonna pound Nikanor to prod, with my fists! Some people should know where this comes from :[p

[DTMaster]

Also:

Vote: Red

You are totally beating around the bush with your Nacho is town case. Time for some grilling. First off, you must have suspected Nacho was not Ice mafia in order to make that statement. Why did you do so?

If you put the wrong link up to IceNinja's post: you must had reason to call Nacho very townie. I had expected you to explain this when I called you out on it, however the "whoops" you are right comment isn't sitting well with me.

Ok...so first RedCoyote is all "oh Scott must be town, dana must have been bussed by his buddy" and now, once he realizes that he is the only other fire candidate on Darklight's bus, so he has to push Scott. Does anyone else see this?

I can totally see this, but I need to reread to make sure.

[DTMaster]

XScoprion. We should focus on people who are scummy, not on fires/ices. I used fire/ice to give town reads, not dish out scum reads. Or did I say Red was fire scum >>

[DTMaster]

@RedCoyote

You are avoiding the question.

You argue that Scott wasn't adamant about DLA's lynch?

^^ Hello: You asked this? This is a rethorical question that you didn't answer yourself. i'm calling you out on deflection which you clearly are doing again today.

How did you get: Scott is scummy based on: We should use Ice and Fire to get townie reads, rather then Oh how about Did Scott push for a DLA lynch

Scott voted DLA yes. He was adament about it. Scott found Deer scummy, but wanted a counter claim before he would vote Deer. His view on dana was neutral/bad. Hmm. You are found deer scummy, you pushed for a DLA lynch, and you found Dana bad. Ok good. Dana was obviously scummy.

So why are you so lazy in your Scott case right now? This rhetorical question should have been answered by you: as you draw out and try and nail Scott for his scummy play as you say.

@Town
Reread our exchange:

The most accurate reads are the ones where Fire and Ice are adamament about a person's lynch

You argue that Scott wasn't adamant about DLA's lynch?

This is what I said: We should be focues on the reasd that Ice and Fire scum put together because it's the most accurate ones. How does: Ice + Fire scum rereads = Are you arguing that Scott isn't adamant about DLA lynch?

This is pure and utter deflection on the topic. This is SCUMMY. I'm not arguing for Scott's innocence, but Red is intent on pinning Scott as scum that he's twisting my argument on this

Also you are ignoring the crux about my question in your read: Hello, why did you find Nacho scummy

^^Red: Is avoiding the big issue questions.

[DTMaster]

@Nacho

My XScoprion Case? Hm? What about that.

[DTMaster]

@Mind
Red is ignoring my calls on why he called Nacho townie. I called him out on a misquote: he goes "hahaha whoops". Not: "haha whoops, I meant this quote"

Plus he used something I said to paint Scott in a bad image, when I had no refrence to Scott's play or situation.

Tl;DR version.

Also ITT

Mindgamer doesn't care about scum hunting because he obviously hasn't read my posts

.

[DTMaster]

@Kthanksbye
Way to bright something new to the table. /facepalm.

What is this connection (one post should be good enough)? How is this incriminating? (In regards to both Pwnman/LL and Nacho).

@Nacho
I find your argument against Scorpion to be scummy. You call DLA out on distancing

but you don't call out Scorpion out on potential distancing between Dana/Scorpion -> Aka bussing Dana to death

If you are going to use that logic on DLA, I'd had expected you to use that same logic to build a scummy case-read on Scorpion.

Also: You're quite wrong.

Scorpion was one of the first people to maintain the Dana lynch after SK replaced out and the wagon lost fire

Apologies for lack of content...I am interested in playing, but school and the sickness I just got over have been stretching my schedule pretty thin. I'll try to make up for missed time, but again, if you want me to answer any questions just ask.

Question time!

Ice:

Why are you disinclined to believe Nacho's claim that I am just a bad townie? What differentiates me from pwnman?

Bio:

You basically state what happened in the game, without an opinion of who is scum. Who is?

DLA:

How important is the rest of town's opinion of you? Do you disagree that it is scummy to unvote just because people are upset about it, as you did with StK (before revoting)?

RedCoyote:

What makes you say Ice is pushing DTM when his vote is on me, and he hasn't changed that vote for 13 posts? Is Ice's opinion of me justified, and should he be voting me? And what do you think of what Locke Lamora said?

-Too many people going 'look at this list of lurkers'. Ask them some questions, build a case, ask the mod for a prod/replacement. Don't just say 'you're lurking, contribute more'.

Also, nacho did not catch rayfrost being replaced either. Does that mean Nacho does not have interest in this game?

Mindgamer:

RedCoyote said he did not like Ice's stance against DTM, yet you are the one actually voting for him. Why do you think RedCoyote considers Ice scum and not you then?

DTM:

Can you give me a good reason why you shouldn't simply put your vote back on StK/dana? If not, who is a better person for your vote?

Nacho:

Contrasting the above question, can you give me a good reason why you aren't unvoting pwnman/Locke? If not, why do you think Locke is scum, without referring to his predecessor?


@Mindgamer:I'd investigate StK/danakillsu

unvote
Vote: Danakillsu

Why are you asking town what to do? Why don't you vote for DTM or myself if you find us suspicious?

Also the following post demonstrates an original idea that ScorpX put out

before Scott posted his defence/attack

@Everyone: Do you think the other fire mafioso was on the DLA wagon at the end of yesterday? I don't.

Why not? Is it simply because you think Scott is town, or because you don't want people to suspect you?

Vote: RedCoyote

Lastly: Is it safe to assume that you don't agree with Scotts/Mine/Scorp's assessment on Red right now?

[DTMaster]

Um Nacho:

1. My case on Scorpion-town was that DLA was pushing for a Scorpion lynch with same enthusiasm as Dana would have.

You are obviously saying DLA is distancing from Scorpion otherwise you wouldn't have accused Scorpion as ice scum via 488

1.a If you think

Scorpian is the one who's doing the distancing" Why the hell did you respond to my case as: This could be distancing. If you reread my case in context with your post: you are obviously trying to say my point about DLA and Dana are wrong. Take into account the first part of your post:

You are saying: DLA or Dana is distancing. You don't think Scorpion is scum with Dana based on your first part: Therefore you are calling out a distancing argument between DLA/Scorpion

Otherwise you would say: Scorpian is bus'ing Dana because, obviously, Dana got lynched and Scorpian accelerated that lynch by maintaining that vote.

2. Your second point is showing that:

you seriously believed Scorpian distanced from Dana?

3. Lastly: You didn't read your own post obviously. I was showing you how you were partially wrong in that

Scorpion actually formed his own cases

, and wasn't a passive scum player in this game. That is where I was attacking. I wasn't attacking your: distancing argument: I was criticizing how you failed transition from: Scorpion is ice scum to Scorpion is just scummy and could be on both teams based on this argument.

Unvote

Vote Nacho

You are back tracking now:

First of all, where did I call DLA out for distancing? Second of all, distancing is a far greater scumtell than bussing. Third of all, what?

Who is distancing from who. Name the names or die by the rope. You are being vauge about how you are linking Scorpion right now. This displeases me.

[DTMaster]

@Red
Stop ignoring me by playing ignorant. Your question: has no baring on my post. You are clearly deflecting my point.

Here: A TL;DR version: You quoted me using an attack on Scott. My quote had no baring on you Scott case, because I was determining. Explain how you drew you conclusions of your Scott case from my post: when I never mentioned Scott. You deflected my point on looking for town reads to attacking Scott using my point.

Also: Why is Nachotown from your original misquote on Iceninja? Do you bloody still think Nacho is town. If so: what was the original post that made you think that both scum players attacked him equally. Huh? Explain yourself. Show the evidence that makes you think Nacho is more likely town.

I called you out on something that didn't make sense. You just shrugged it off.

Finally: What makes Scott the scummiest person to lynch today? Hm?

@Scott

In terms of voting, there isn't too much overlap. Both jumped on the Deer wagon, who has essentially been cleared since there has not been a CC. The only other commonality I found is Mindgamer. SK/dana had a vote for Mindgamer for a large portion of D1, vote count 11 and 12 DLA also voted for Mindgamer. Town points to Mindgamer since both factions went after him in some capacity.

Hello, I mentioned this already. This is why I think Mind and Scorpion are more likely townie based on the scum attacks. I feel like: This should totally be a red flag for me.

@Lonewolf
Hey. Lone wolf. I have issues with your no lynch idea.

1. The game has always been very close to be totally mountainous. Actually the moment the Doctor claimed, and Deer was confirmed, this game became totally mountainous. A no kill can be explained by the fact that scum cross killed the same person. A doctor's protect

cannot confirm people because of the above mechanic

a. Did you realize that in a worst case scenerio: No lynching allows scum to get 2 free kills in on town. So we go from 9 people -> 7 people with 2 scum. When you no lynch what you do is:

You get rid of voting count analysis for that day.
You don't get any reactions based on wagons/lynch targets etc.
You let scum direct the next day to their advantage.

In a lynch: You get 3 town kills in a worst case scenario, and at least one scum dead in a good lynch.

What's important that: We lynch someone who is scummy now, rather then later at lower people. Plus you get VC analysis, reactions/people's lynch targets/ and we have a town directed kill.

2. FYI: I'm calling Red scummy. He is scummy. If you think I'm selectively scum hunting, you first got to either prove: either Red is opposing scum which means you lynch Red-scum anyways because he is scum. or you find my post lacking and you see Red-town and me actively wagoning. Which also makes little sense since I'm driving this case right now.

I was the first to combine both DLA and Dana into a read for townies. I'm pretty sure I'm not being selective here.

3. Busing is very true, but I find that Scorpion and Mindgamer looks good in regards to the total picture.

@Kthanks
Actually I'm pretty sure everyone knew the claim was a joke. If Lonewolf was actually claiming doctor, I'd rather let him do that on his own then catch him at his own fail-claim act.

Unvote

Vote: Red

Lynch scum.

[DTMaster]

Things that I note are:

@Lone

Ok, I see that my NL isn't going to fly. I'm not going to bother trying to defend it against more experienced players, but I'll point out DTM's flaw at the least:
The doc protection does work as long as there is only one kill. With nokill at all the protect doesn't confirm anyone, but with One, it confirms said person as being not "X" mafia (the mafia whose kill was blocked.)

Um, no

because doctors can protect scum players, causing the kill to fail. The fact that we have a cross kill shows you: scum can kill each other at night. Hello? If a doctor protects someone they are unconfirmed.

Put this scenario: what if the doctor stopped the kill on DLA last night? Hmm? The only way a doctor can confirm someone is if an entire scum team is eliminated and he protects people once an entire scum team is eliminated.

^^^ Lone wolf. Seriously, no.

I don't like this RC wagon at all. I think the people on it are going to be very good candidates for Ice tomorrow. The reason that people are voting RC is because he's likely fire scum while HES LOOKING FOR FIRE? Anyone have a meta on RC as being a crazy WIFOM type scum?

Um, hello? Since when did I ever call RC fire again. I'm calling RC as scummy. Again:

Since when is RC townie? If you think RC is scummy, then why the hell are you freaking out?

.... as you move your vote to Scott which contradicts the above point.

Ok: Lonewolf, you are voting Scott because he is scummy. Am I correct? I am voting RC because I found him to be scummy. If you are concerned about ice scums, why aren't you voting LL instead of Scotty. You find Scotty scummier then LL right? Then why the hell are you criticizing the votes/cases/scum hunting. Ugh. like UGH.

You might as well say everyone on Dana's wagon is Ice scum and everyone on DLA's wagon is fire scum because they wouldn't want to bus their partners. The fact that each player was scummy has no baring what so ever... /sarcasm.

However, I do find that you are seriously trying to use the doctor to catch the remaining scum a ray of hope.

to me this reads as struggling town trying to get game mechanics to work in favor for the town

In terms of your scott question: read below. His recent posts unnerve me.

@Red

@Scott
I dislike your coaching argument, and I never, once, seen it actually turn up scum. I have seen scum use it to pull arguments out of thin air though. When I read that quote:

I seriously don't see how LL is "coaching DLA" to play better or, how he's showing DLA his mistakes to improve on. DLA stuck with his "reaction" argument. Outlining scum, and scummier argument doesn't make sense. LL is guilty of it. So is RC: with his Dana push, but his DLA vote. You are also caling me scummy for: my Deer vote but not my DLA push where I said DLA is scummy but I like the Deer wagon better.

Lastly: Pwnman makes less sense as Ice Scum since he agreed that SK's attack on Mindgamer was legitimate (when I called him out on Ice-scum hunting)

@Nacho
1. Um:

links are distorted by distancing

. Again as I stressed out: We should read for town-reads to limit the lynch targets. Those are the most accurate in my opinion. We had this discussion.

I don't hunt by establishing fire links/ ice links. I'd rather hunt by scummy players. I use the flips to establish town reads, but that's about it.

2. In my reread I have a question: Do you find Xscorpian scummier then LL?

3. I dislike your criticism on the DLA wagon actually. Iso 20 is good example of it. It attacks me, and ice, and subtly defends DLA and himself. It's a whopper.

4. I noticed something else:

Nacho makes what I think is a fairly overtly manipulative comment and basically attempts to make DLA feel bad about voting for XScorpion.

Mafia's a game of manipulation... I wanted him to feel bad and unvote because he was voting for a townie.

I notice something. The transition from day 1 Nacho on Scorpion

action

to the day 2 Nacho on Scorpion

action

isn't smooth. You approved of Scoprion back when his vote was on SK.

@All people voting XScorpion: Let's lynch scummy over stupid, guys. If XScorpion was THAT stupid of a scum player, then we'll be able to figure him out Day 2. Let's lynch people who were scummy in the beginning, never defended themselves, and now are hiding behind the town (namely, pwnman).

Darklight, why are you voting Scorpion? You're better than that

Current Lurkers:
Crazy
DarkLightA
Deer
Mindgamer
pwnman
RayFrost
Sanhora
Scott Brosius
XScorpion

DT, do you have more confidence in your SK vote then your XScorpion vote, then?

then the vote.....

You know guys, it's kinda boring seeing the four same people argue who is fire mafia, when it's pretty much between two people...

Unvote, Vote: XScorpion

You're VOTING RedCoyote, but you're not advancing your case. Just planning to leave your vote on RC until he gets lynched, like you did with Dana?

I'm getting serious alarm bells here from Nacho because the flow of:

Town Scorpion -> Scum Scorpian cases/rereads is off. Why is it now that Nacho expresses the brilliance to post this gem:

Well, leaving the wagon on Dana ended up lynching scum, did it not?

Sure, but not the type of scum I think you are.

Is there some problem with voting for someone who I think is scum?

When you're letting everyone else build a case on them, yet you not forming one yourself? Yeah.

When in the last day: Nacho was calling Scorpion VI. There is no flow in his case.

@Mindgamer
For all this talk about mindgamer appears town, what bothers me is that he is gone. I need to pull out my anti-lurking tool.

@My Reads
My scum list:
RC
Scott
Nacho

My townlist:
I've mentioned it already.

Unvote

Vote: Nacho

My mind is on this direction.

Fixed quote tags. ~Nik

[DTMaster]

@Nacho
You critised DLA for voting

a townie

DLA was voting XScorpian.

But you never called Scorpian on being townie? (aka you never used the words Town Scorpian?)

Bull-s---!

This is obviously Nacho creating back doors for himself about the XScoprian issue.

Answer this:
a. When you attacked DLA for his vote, Scorpian left his vote on SK. Scorp also flip flopped about DLA/San to go back to Dana. But never once did you say: Scorp was scummy then. In fact:

why are you having an issue now, but not then?

b. You never said Town Scorpion? Liar. Why did you tell DLA that he was voting a townie? Huh? You also called Scorp stupid as you said. But you didn't call him town?. This is serious back tracking right now.

The first action implies you had a town read on Scorp, but you're denying it now. The second action says: you are calling Scorp as VI.

EDIT:

I have conclusive evidence you just lied right now.

Ice, your attack against XScorpion makes you either misguided or scum. XScorp is town. XScorp is town because he is the only person (other than ModNik) who is not completely serious right now, and there's a point for doing what everyone else isn't. I don't understand your comment when you said "the entire town is lurking" when, in reality, it was only a few people.

Back on the DLA case: If we go back and reread your defence on DLA:

@All people voting XScorpion: Let's lynch scummy over stupid, guys. If XScorpion was THAT stupid of a scum player, then we'll be able to figure him out Day 2. Let's lynch people who were scummy in the beginning, never defended themselves, and now are hiding behind the town (namely, pwnman).

Darklight, why are you voting Scorpion? You're better than that Sad

In the above: you don't attack the wagoners of Scorp. I find this interesting because you defend DLA and Scorp for playing dumb, which IHMO is a weak argument to begin with. Obviously it is since you overturned it on Scorpian right now. What I want is:

A meta link between you and DLA right now to show how can you know DLA can play better then this?

Secondly: I find the transition to your scum hunting -> defending DLA odd.

1. The quality and amount of time you spend defending DLA and attacking ICE versus your time spent attacking mindgamer/pwnman link to be unimpressive.

This is a good gem in your IceNinja wall:

A few posts later, DarkLight then throws down a vote on XScorpion simply stating "seriously dude???" without giving any explanation. While this vote wasn't inherantly scummy, it is the fact that this is the 3rd serious vote DarkLight has made in the first week of game play, and is followed by this:

DarkLight wrote:

Nachomamma8 wrote:
Darklight, why are you voting Scorpion? You're better than that Sad

I just find his play totally stupid. I'm in to lynch stupid players if it's for the good of the town.

You unvote XScorpion anyway. You caved in to what another player's opinion is of you, thus suggesting that your first statement in your last post was untrue. Also, you have yet to make a single follow up to any vote you have placed at all. Throwing your vote around without purpose is not scum hunting by anyone's definition, so this also discounts your second statement in your most recent post.

First of all, why are you so confident his vote was serious? There was a picture accompanying his vote, in case you didn't notice... Also, changing your mind/admitting when you've made a mistake isn't the same as caring what people think of you, nor is it the same as caving in to outside influences... What makes you think that DLA's votes have been without purpose?
[/quote]

You defended DLA's non serious note, and then called it serious, and then... the circle of this logic is baffling almost.

In the rest of the post (iso 17) you notice a lot of the above argument being used. However: this conflicts with Nacho's issue with DLA at the time:

a. Lack of content.
b. Lack of explaining.

He mentions this in Iso 7 and I attack him for it seen in his Iso 18

New relevations in an Iso Nacho!
I find that

Mindgamer-pwnman = 1 Mafia Scumteam...

Mindgamer, why Scott Brosius? Sanhora hasn't said anything with her posting, Ray hasn't said anything with his posting, Darklight hasn't said anything with his posting... Scott's actually taken positions on things, which is a hell of a lot more than you've done so far.

Doesn't explain his links. He commented that everyone else as said nothing, and Scott took stances. What did Mindgamer/Pwn do again?

The post after is an attack on mindgamer which summerizes to:

I have a scum read on you. You aren't reading closely. I counter your points. The latter 2 are good posting. The first point is bad posting.

The I have a scum read is not followed by why mindgamer is scummy. I missed this when I first addressed Nacho (see his ISO 11), however I face palm at myself for not asking:

Why was the mindgamer linked to pwnman/LL again given that pwnman joined SK to attack mindgamer.

TL:DR: This exchange reads as Nacho throwing easy suspicions away, but doesn't actually scum hunt this pair. (Compare the content/quality of this post to his ISO 17 onwards where he defends DLA. Something is odd here....)

Unvote

Vote Nacho

He's caught. He attempted to cover his tracks with his Scorp case. He's scum. He should die.

[DTMaster]

@Fishy /Fish

I believe the change is resulted from two things:

a. Originally when I commented on XScorp I did it via: rereads from Dana and DLA back onto XScorp and I called him very likely town because both Dana and DLA were willing to lynch him.

b. Nacho commented on distancing, where I related back from XScorp's post back onto DLA and said it is possible.

The above would be the confusion on what I did to analyze Scorp. I still believe that Nacho's handling of the case is extremely scummy based on the previous attack. Yes I did take into account of the reveals within the rereads.

It's accurate to say that the reveals forced the rereads which lead to my comment on XScorp and Mindgamer

@TheLonewolf
"cough" First: People lie by crumbing fake roles. People shouldn't lie about fake claiming PRs. I have seen a game:

where town claimed doctor and a doctor counter claimed, leading to town almost losing in the F11 newbie game. Town had lynched scum (RB) once and they had a cop/doc team.

Secondly: We aren't dealing with a claim. We are dealing with a person who lied about their scum hunting stance.

Thirdly: LAL I hate, I agree with your policy.

Fourthly: Change is ok. A smooth transition is ok.

But things that didn't bother Nacho day 1 has suddenly become scummy to him. Wait? Wut? Take the vote issue. Nacho didn't have issues with it till today. But when Scorp was playing like that: Ice had the main issue on Scorp. But Nacho focused on defending DLA, crtisising DLA, and tunneling on Ice

@RC/Fishy "Cleared doctor"
Again: Unless we get a counter claim, there shouldn't be an issue about his status. Basically, even though we had horribad players here, we keep the dead weight. The doc's status is already good enough to narrow down the lynch pool by 1.

@Nacho

Scopr Case: I have a question. Why are you addressing Scorp's vote only now? (ie his Red vote/his Dana vote) versus back in Day 1 with SK/etc. This is an independent argument that was made by Ice way back in Day 1. However: All I remember is that you tunneled on Ice while calling Scorp townie. Let's go back:

Nacho wrote:

Darklight voted XScorpion for starting a crappy bandwagon.

XScorpion didn't form an argument that others bought in to, he simply threw down a vote. Just because XScorpion was the first one with a vote down doesn't mean he actually started any bandwagon. Crazy and Kerrigan were the ones who were actually pushing the pwnman case. By that logic, shouldn't DarkLight have been suspicious of Crazy, who pushed the hardest? No, instead he claims that DT's attack on Crazy was weak, and in a sense defended Crazy.

Hold on a second: This argument made by Ice, is the same one made by Nacho. Hmm. I reread Ice and he was the biggest, vocal opponent against Scorp. This specific post was made:

Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: 43 (in Iso)

The rest of the posts are Ice arguing how Scorp is scummy. Now I go back on Nacho and reread his March 16 responses looking for consistency points: In ter resting. No comment on XScorp, all about DLA and Nacho's attack on Ice.

Do you know what else I really, really, really, love from IceNinja. There is this gem in regards to Nacho's current case.

Voting without a real explanation is consistently a bad idea.

I voted XScorpion for doing exactly this. Why are you criticizing me for voting someone who has repeatedly done something that is consistently a bad idea?

I do agree with your vote on pwnman, though, he is probably my second target. I really want to see XScorpion contribute something to this game, so I really want to leave my vote where it is for the moment. Once my concerns about XScorpion are alleviated then I can move on to either pwnman or Mindgamer. If XScorpion continues to do foolish things in the name of not taking this game seriously, then I will hold my vote.

I do not find jokes and making light of the game inherently scummy. I find throwing out random votes and contributing absolutely nothing to the game scummy.

It is more than "just a few people" that are lurking. You call pwnman a lurker when others post even less than him. I'd say it is about 5 people lurking, which, when exaggerated, is the whole freaking town. Or about 5 people more than it should be, at least.

I'm looking at you, Sanhora with your 3 posts. If you aren't going to play, then replace out.

This was posted on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:54 am Post subject: 15 (iso)

I went back to make sure on page 7 where this post is made.

Okay, but that means you're attacking one of many lurkers, which is non-productive. If you do that, the town will be divided on which lurker to lynch, which is always a bad thing and leaves us open to pure and simple manipulation.

Try reading pwn in ISO and taking note of his reactions. There's an odd one out in this group, and for right now, it isn't XScorpion.

Cough. The above is not a defense of Scorpian for the

same argument Nacho is using against XScorp right now

/sarcasm. "shakes my head"

TL:DR.
Nacho. You are caught still. Your argument is lifted from Ice. When I go back and re-analyze your response to Ice: the things that you find scummy now were already addressed by him back then. But you established that Xscorp was townie back in your day 1 reads when you were attacking Ice. If the arguments you present now were the same ones Ice put forward:

What was the diffrence between now and yesterday that made you turn from town-Scorp to scum-scorp case? Hmm? Hmmmmmmm!?

Aside question: What is your read on mindgamer and why?

Edit: Nacho. You just said I had a good point. But Now I'm misrepping you even though my attack was good? Huh? Wuts?

If

you were focused on town-hunting to narrow down the scum reads on day 1 how can you blooody hell forget someone that you clearly stated he was town

For your method I would think you would pay extra attention to who you call out on town, rather then forget these "details". Your explanation is unsatisfactory to me to your methods on how you scum hunt/identify townies on day 1.

[DTMaster]

Ok guys, I claim that I stole Nikanor's Moderator's list and I know who scum is ---------

"died"

[DTMaster]

Boooooooo. I just realized my mistake when Nacho died and I was discussing this with Nikanor. BOOOOOOOO!

[DTMaster]

Lol. When Nacho flipped town. I thought Scott/Red would take his case more seriously. Guess not. D:.