Open 191 - Paris Mafia II (Game Over!)

[hitogoroshi]

Hey guys! Most of you are new faces to me, so hello. I have played with kyle before. (and I seem to remember playing something with xofelf; help me out here?)

Personally I hate games with lynch-win roles, because there's no dis-incentive to being completely anti-town. But I like VP's format a bit more than most because we're allowed to lynch one mime. That's a powerful tool to have sitting in our pockets.

I'm going to ISO each player and post my thoughts about them. The post should be coming soon.

[hitogoroshi]

Iso Spectacular, in Alphabetical Order

-------------

Cat

Post count: 3

This is who I replaced. Cat said nothing. Sweet.

--------------

Dry-Fit

Post Count: 3

Oh boy someone else with three posts. Sweet. However, I do like this point he made:

I think claiming not to know what a mime is is a mime tell.

But seriously dry-fit, get your ass in here and post.

---------------

flinter

Post count: 18

40 posts total on the site? I'd really like to know if you're an alt. I don't need to know who the player is, just a yes or no.

I won't be able to judge flinter too much until I iso scorpion and know the answer to the above question. She seems to be pretty earnest on the scorpion wagon. The problem is, she also seems to think wagon-hopping is a scumtell - so sticking on the scorpion wagon is also exactly what I'd expect from flinter-scum. Regardless though, I definitely don't want to lynch flinter d1, so for now I can kind of put her out of mind.

-------------------

Gerty

Post count: 5

I don't know what to make of Gerty. ISO 3 is a good content post, and I'd like to see a couple more of those before I try to judge Gerty. If nothing else she (I know it's a m/f hydra, but since I know it was the female posting at least twice that is officially Gerty's gender) seems to be putting in a good effort with fairly transparent posts, and I like to keep easily readable players around.

-----------------

Kise

Post Count: 18

role gambiting in an open? What the hell. I'm inclined to think kise is a townie after that little exchange, if only because that's a very self-centered gambit (it's all about 'must see reactions!' with no concern as to how others would view you for it - townies care the least about their image.)

But he's posting a lot without saying too much. I like his ISO 10 quite a bit - especially his thoughts re: directing the vig (I'll be posting my setup thoughts after the ISO's.) But besides that, he's kind of active lurking while looking like he's being busy.

-----------------------

kyle99

Post Count: 14

I don't think his 'vote, oh wait mimes exist, unvote' was any particular alignment slip. However, it's worth noting that most of his posts are just clarifications/defenses of that move. What content has kyle provided?

And here's a laugh:

Actually I'm just really bad/lazy town but ok lol.

Nice. Those are great qualities for a townie.

I know kyle is a lazy scum, and you're being lazy (in terms of content) in this game. This is kind of pot calling the kettle black.

kyle hasn't completed a game as town yet so I don't know if this is because he's scum once more or if it's just that kyle is a lazy person, but seriously. Post content. You know what posting content looks like. do that.

-----------------------------

Taking a food break, I'll get to the rest of you bums soon enough. In the meantime:

question for mod: the scum PM doesn't mention anything about a nk. Do scum get a nk? If so, can it be roleblocked by a mime?

preview edit- looker stop spamming.

[hitogoroshi]

We now return to our regularly scheduled program...

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Looker

Post Count: 36

Firstly, you can make the quote ISO numbers hyperlinks? That's awesome! I'm gonna need to start doing that.

Not sure how I feel about Looker. He's posting a lot (that's good), trying to push a bandwagon (that's good), but isn't really adopting much of a position on anything (that's bad.) I completely understand where you're coming from but you can't use your vote as a blind pressure tool without sharing your thoughts. The most telling was when you continually voted players until they answer 'who do you want lynched?". It's certainly something I want to know, but when you are formulaic as you are you're basicially absolving yourself of responsibility for you vote. Who do

you

want lynched? Give me a vote that shows what you think, not just want you want to know. And stop the recent spam-posting garbage.

-------------------------------------------------

mylenes

Post Count: 14

Once again, a player with a decent number of posts and no real position on anything. He voted kyle "just for pressure", which irks me - I'm a full supporter of pressure votes, but generally you should never have to refer to them as such (look at Looker - he pressure votes left and right but never has to say 'LOL THAT WAS A PRESSURE VOTE', it's clear by context), and doing so usually strikes me as a player trying to divorce themselves from being responsible for their votes.

And there's this gem of a point in his latest post:

To me it looks like it would be in the towns best interest to search for both mafia and mimes then lynch or vig accordingly.

Way to take up a strong position, chief.

However, I'm inclined to be a bit more lenient on mylenes because he's new. I like his current vote on scorpion. You've gotta work on your scumhunting and such more, but I'm willing to give you a bit of time and the benefit of the doubt to try to figure out the games dynamics.

------------------------

Rhinox

Post Count: 21

Rhinox is in the 1000+ post club, and I really wasn't expecting this. A lot of set-up speculation and general information instead of analysis. His main thought was that kise is scum or mime, oh wait just kidding I agree he's probably town. And then he follows up by jumping on the scorpion wagon. Hey, rhinox, there are players in this game, and it'd be kinda cool if you, y'know, commented on their actions, and not just tried to play what-should-the-vig-do.

----------------------

xofelf

Post count: 6

Another non-contributor. Man this game needs a kick in the ass. However, I will say that her ISO 5 is the kind of actual contentposting (read: actually giving reads and not just talking about the setup) this game needs so if she gets back in here and continues to post content I will be a happy hito. But if not I will be (a/an) {some word that starts with h and communicates the idea of 'angry'} hito.

-------------------------

reckoner

post count: 19

reckoner is an odd one. I really like his style of posting; he's giving his reads a lot. This is what I like to see from a player. I want to know what happened to his suspcison on rhinox. I don't like that he brought up his meta as a defense. I want to know if you agree with kyle's explanation on his 'I hate alt's, unvote' post, and whether or not you still think that makes him scum.

Overall I don't like quite a bit of the content reckoner has posted, but he's got a very good style and I see no reason to lynch him when his posts are giving me so much information into his thoughts. If he's scum/mime, he's one that's interacting enough that we can probably catch his buddy from his posts (or vice versa).

--------------------------------

xscorpion

Post count: 27

For most of the way though, I'm totally cool voting for scorpion. If he's lazy, admits it, and doesn't show a particular desire to change, that's more or less it - he's gonna be an albatross around our necks and the sooner we remove him the better.

But his recent posts on Looker, despite the fact that his vote started as an OMGUS, have some merit. I don't agree it's particularly damning he unvoted kise, but it's certainly something to pursue. In short, scorpion seems to be doing a bit of honest-to-god scumhunting. If he starts to slip into lazy non-posts again I'll jump on to the wagon but for now I'm inclined to let him run loose.

---------------------

Anyway, I'm gonna go ahead and

vote: Rhinox

.

Next post (it should be right now, I just want to keep them separate) will be my thoughts on the set-up. Despite you guys talking it to death instead of actually playing the game I feel that there are a couple of points that need to be clearly said.

[hitogoroshi]

First thought: If someone claims watcher or vig, and is lying, for gods sake DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM, REAL VIG OR WATCHER. The town will work on a way for them to confirm. CC'ing - especially for the vig - is a terrible, terrible idea. Don't do it.

Second thought: I agree n1 the watcher should watch whoever we sic the vig on. I strongly disagree it should be kise - especially since it seems to mostly be for his jokey fakeclaim in an open. There is no incentive for mimes to post, because the usual tool of lynch all lurkers doesn't apply here. The town should pick a non-contributor to be vigged, because vigging is our only good tool to kill lurkers.

Third thought: we have a decent chance of having the scum kill the mimes. Just putting that out there.

Unrelated thought: kise, the fakeclaim was funny and all, but seriously, vote.

[hitogoroshi]

Kyle first, then we can discuss Looker vs Rhinoceros after Kyle and kise flip.

I'm willing to play along with a kyle lynch, but (assuming kise does his promised catch-up post and actually votes) I can think of quite a few better vig targets than kise.

RE: What I Think
There's really nothing for me

to

think at the moment. You guys are like grits and I have to heat and stir you up if I'm ever gonna get something concrete out of you. I could blindly assume that everyone is town, but I'm really not trying to go down that road, so, until I figure out who is, I'd like to keep my options open and my vision non-tunneled. (Which makes absolutely no sense, but I'm not about to backspace all that)

Again, that's all well and good, but we need to know what

you

think so we can try to get something concrete out of

you

. The fact that you respond to questions aimed at you with non-sequiter answers like "Because I saw a jalapeno" even while you demand answers from others isn't winning you many town points in my book.

After his latest slap-dash quickpost, I think I'd be up for a dry-fit vig n1. Your thoughts?

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP: that last 'your thoughts' was directed at everyone.

[hitogoroshi]

I'm pretty much open to anyone right now. Of course, I could go the conventional route and suspect those who suspect me, but I've played this game before and would rather not do that. I actually prefer my dice-roll maneuver and only vote people now because I want us all to vote. I don't really see any cases that look worth wagoning over so spontaneity's good with me. That and I like non-sequitor. Eggs.

See, Looker, what you're saying is that (especially with your dice-roll maneuver) it is your deliberate intention to give the town as little information about your slot as possible. If that's true, why should we try to keep you alive?

I can understand having trouble with early reads, I don't have that good of a scumdar myself. But you at least have to try - you have to say 'right now I think x is scum, and y is town, because of z.' If you're not going to do that you're hiding a lot from us, and when someone is hiding information from me I start tying knots.

[hitogoroshi]

@Hito
Information about my slot? Hito, there

is

no information about my muh'f*ckn slot.

Also, what exactly have we gotten from anybody? What suspicions do we have? What leads? We ain't got NUTHIN! NUTTIN!

Okay Looker. Notice my ISO posts? Notice how you know what I think about

every player in the game

? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not asking you to do the same, obviously - that was a catch-up post and all. But think about it. If someone, say, flips scum, the town can look at my posts about them and try to figure out whether or not I'm that person's scumbuddy. But there are several players you haven't even commented on. Many players are of course guilty of this - but you alone seem to be reveling in it.

I've been getting leads from a lot of players. The ones that haven't been giving me them are on my scum short-list (did you notice why I'm voting Rhino?)

Your call for kise to vote (besides being parroted from me ) brings up the point that you know why it matters to vote. What about you? Do you think scorpion is scum? Or is this another 'lol doesn't count' vote?

[hitogoroshi]

Wow.

I think it goes without saying, no more scorpion votes until everyone else has gotten a chance to get in here.

In fact I think we're posting too much. Let's give the other half of the players a chance to get where we are.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh, that's another thing. No hammering until we've picked the vig/watcher target.

I want to pick one of the non-contributors, but I'll give them a day to react to the proceedings.

[hitogoroshi]

Nono, watcher watches whoever gets vigged. And personally I don't see why everyone thinks kise is a good vig target. It seems like everyone decided that when he did a jokey fakeclaim and now everyone has forgotten why and are just sticking with 'vig kise'.

[hitogoroshi]

Never mind, kise is a

fantastic

vig candidate for tonight.

[hitogoroshi]

And I really want to hear from dry/rhinox/xofelf/gerty before we move into night. After blowing up the thread like we did the least we can do is wait for them to follow along.

[hitogoroshi]

flinter - you're missing the very strong benefit of being able to have the vig and watcher target the same player. While I hate to throw even more set-up talk on the pile, it's necessary to explain why we should direct the vig. Let's assume that the vig and watcher go for kise. (After his 'just bus me' comment it's a very easy assumption to make.)

If kise and someone else dies, the watcher (unless they got unluckily mime-blocked) knows who the vig is. That's very powerful stuff, particularly because, if necessary, the

watcher

can counter-claim a false vig while our real vig remains hidden. (Though generally, it's better to say 'Hey real vig, if x is lying vig kill them tonight', having the watcher available is also nice.) While I'm not a fan of outing PR's I think we can appreciate that having the watcher claim is miles above having the vig claim in a time of crisis.

More importantly, what if the watcher watches someone and they get night-killed?

They won't know if it was scum or vig, and as such, stand a good chance of outting our vig.

Conversely, with a directed vig, we'll know who it is. (While the scum could also target kise, this would be terribly sub-optimal for them - they lose a kill, and if the watcher ever finds out who the real vig is they will know 100% who the scum are.) I can appreciate the line of thought re: 100% confirmed to themselves vig - but at least wait until n2, when the watcher can see a nk, know 'oh, that was a vig kill' and avoid making a terrible mistake.

[hitogoroshi]

Rhinox: I'm certainly not saying it's scummy to talk about the set-up, only that in your case it seems to be concealing everything else. In particular, I had a hell of a time when looking through your ISO trying to figure out when and why kise went from obv-scum to town for you. I'll admit, though, that I have not done any meta reading of you and so perhaps I was speaking more out of the experience of me finding it hard to find your opinions and suspecting it was deliberate. That, and your lax 'he's been scummy sure let's wagon' slide on the scorpion wagon couldn't help but set me off.

Regardless, while I'm curious what your town read of kise thinks about this post:

Just bus me. The jig is up.

there are bigger fish to fry when it comes to people not offering their thoughts.

unvote, vote: Gerty

(For the record - I'll vote scorpion if we get close to deadline, but there's been a lot of stuff happening that quite a few people haven't commented on. In particular, I don't want to end D1 until xofelf comes back from her V/LA and offers her views on the proceedings.)

To be honest, though, scorpions flailing seems to be equally explainable as frustrated townie or scum mimicking the same. (I'll feel terrible if I'm wrong about this, but I don't think he's a mime.) There are quite a few people who haven't posted much that I'd feel equally comfortable lynching at this point. The only town reads I have with any strength at this point are flinter and looker. While this D1 quickly risks getting too long, it's been disproportionately swelled by a few people and I'm not too comfortable taking so many basicially null reads into D2.

[hitogoroshi]

Seriously, Looker, when people say 'oh man, I can't believe there are X pages to catch up to' the reason it's such a big imposing number is because you keep spamming the thread. Please, try to keep it under control.

[hitogoroshi]

Hmm. You know, I'm starting to think more and more that xscorpion is town.

Still waiting on gerty, xofelf (who should be back from V/LA tonight?), and others.

I'll need to see gerty post before I make up my mind, but if I'm willing to add scorpion-town to my list of reads I think I might just know where to look on the scorpion wagon to find scum.

In the interests of complete transparency, let me say: I plan on pushing a counter-wagon so there is a viable lynch candidate besides scorpion. I simply am trying to decide who I think is the most likely scum (or failing that, best lynch candidate - I would be willing to policy lynch an extreme lurker much more than I would be willing to lynch scorpion.) If I had to pick right now it'd be dry-fit.

Kise, should we vig you tonight? If not, who?

[hitogoroshi]

I've been advocating that for a long time, man. I don't think anyone disagrees. If I recall correctly only flinter had a counterpoint and as I remember she still agreed we should direct the vig/watch n1 at least.

Gerty has about a day (probably a bit less) to get in here before my Gerty-vote becomes a Gerty-wagon. We have a bit more than three days (8am deadline is kinda iffy) to get this going and while I really want the lurkers to get back in here I also don't want to make the counter-wagon a last minute affair.

[hitogoroshi]

Also, I just realized I should ask something I've been taking for granted.

Scorpion, if we lynch and vig other people tonight, I assume you would stop this 'lynch me' stuff and actually get back into the game, yes?

[hitogoroshi]

Hmm. If gerty actually follows through, and the post is up to snuff, I'd be okay with a kyle lynch. He's a member of the lurker club and if reckoner thinks he's scum I'm willing to play along.

Kise, please answer this:

Kise, should we vig you tonight? If not, who?

[hitogoroshi]

Scorpion, if we lynch and vig other people tonight, I assume you would stop this 'lynch me' stuff and actually get back into the game, yes?

Please answer.

Gerty has a couple of hours left.

[hitogoroshi]

Alright, I was right to like Gerty's posting style. That last post was certainly worth the wait and my vote has served it's purpose.

Gerty, could we get you on board for a kyle wagon to save scorpion? I think we're both on the same wavelength when it comes to him and I'm good with seeing kyle go. (as I said before, a dry-fit lynch is also fine by me.)

As for the vig target, I like kise's plan that we vig/watch him if we hit a scum or mime and let him pick if we mislynch. seeing as people are generally risk-adverse, I'd be willing to bet scum-kise or mime-kise would have rather defined it the other way.

I hate to vote-hop (it's my meta to leave my vote in one place, and while I'm starting to outgrow that bad habit it still makes me feel icky because rapid-votes lose their pressuring power) but there's no sense waiting around.

unvote, vote:kyle99

I'll be up for a dry-fit switch, and maybe mylnynes, though I'm not as certain as Gerty on that one. Still, any of those three would be better than the current scorpion and looker wagons.

[hitogoroshi]

He picks before the lynch happens.

[hitogoroshi]

It's the site, xofelf. I think most games are taking an activity hit with these white-screen shenanigans.

[hitogoroshi]

Okay we have two days (plus whoever happens to be awake that early on the 18th, but I'm not counting on that.) The MS hiccups are killing activity. Now is the time for decisive action.

We are lynching kyle today.

If kyle flips scum or mime, the vig and watcher are both targeting kise.

If kyle flips town, the vig and watcher are to target whoever kise designates. If he doesn't get in here and name it explicitly before deadline, the watcher and vig default to rhinox, who he 'thought would do.'

That's it. And if your next post isn't a vote for kyle, you better push your counter-wagon and pushing it hard and fast, because we have very, very little time to screw around.

[hitogoroshi]

You're absolutely right that this is a bandwagon for the sake of bandwagoning - because we have two days left and we have to pick someone. I'm not 'avoiding responsibility' however: quite the opposite. I'm saying that I am comfortable lynching someone I am not completly convinced is scum, because a kyle lynch is preferential to a scorpion lynch. I say those other names precisely BECAUSE I'm not sure kyle is scum - I have no definite scum read but the deadline has ratcheted my standards down a tier. I think kyle, dry-fit, and myl all are more likely to be scum than scorpion, flinter, looker, or (obviously) myself. The kyle wagon isn't fantastic; but as I said, if you have a better alternative, say it now and campaign the hell out of it. Otherwise, vote kyle.

I'm comfortable with flinter picking who gets to pick the vig/watcher target. While I don't like the running about and switching I think flinter is town and I'm willing to play along with her. The kise plan was really only something I supported because I wanted SOME sort of order, but if flinter wants to do this weird version of popcorn I trust flinter more than I trust kise.

[hitogoroshi]

EBWOP: Or flinter can just pick herself. I really don't care, as long as it happens soon enough it we can be sure the vig/watcher see it. Either way is good~

[hitogoroshi]

I'll switch to dry-fit if one other (reconker? looker?) does. Thanks to the no no-lynching rule, whoever's at majority will be lynched at deadline. But I don't want to leave kyle until I'm setting up a new majority - otherwise, I want to have the older kyle wagon as insurance (because the more senior wagon wins ties.)

That being said, my suspcion on dry-fit and kyle are roughly equal and if you guys prefer him I won't object overly much.

EBWOP: I guess I'm staying on kyle until two more jump to dry-fit - that's what'd it take for me to make the new majority be him with scorpions vote.

[hitogoroshi]

PS, Vig should claim first thing tomorrow assuming watcher doesn't die overnight.

This is the worst idea ever. Vig, do not do this.

[hitogoroshi]

Vig stays hidden as long as possible. Even with the mimes gone, no reason for the vig to claim unless we're about to lynch them.

Kise, your plan isn't worth it because we DON'T WANT to know who the vig is if the watcher dies first. The entire point is to keep the vig hidden so they can't be roleblocked. We can talk about bread-crumbing plans if a mime is nk'ed tonight.

P.S one more vote and me switching on dry-fit would make him the new majority, just fyi.

[hitogoroshi]

delicious!

unvote, vote: dry-fit

[hitogoroshi]

No wait. Flinter needs to pick the vig/watcher target. Sorry kise but we like flinter more than you. nothing personal~

Remember, thanks to VP's awesome rules (Mod: Get someone to high-five you for me), if he's at L-1 come deadline he'll get lynched.

^5 -the mod

[hitogoroshi]

As I said, if a mime gets nk'd tonight we can talk about this tomorrow. We are NOT going to risk outing the vig before that.

For what it's worth there's an even better way than kise's idea to do it, if our goal is to have a killed watcher confirm the vig, but that isn't something I want the town to discuss right now.

[hitogoroshi]

Nice job paying attention there, skip.

I'm assuming since Gerty decided to aim for kise and not reck for whatever reason the watcher got no result.

Watcher: if you saw someone target someone who DIDN'T GET KILLED (e.g, if you watched reck and saw someone target him) claim immediately - that's our mime. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut.

Initial thoughts: scum got a lucky hit on Gerty, but that's also kind of confusing. Why not go for flinter, who virtually no one disagreed with yesterday...? This lends a fair bit of weight to the idea of flinter-scum. Regardless I'm gonna need to go back and re-read with the knowledge of the flips.

[hitogoroshi]

Hmm, I'm really digging that analysis, Rhinox. I agree that I don't really see kyle as a mime, which makes him a tasty lynch target today. I don't want to commit my vote for sure until I've re-read a bit (particularly Gerty's posts.)

A couple of questions for Rhinox:

1.) Would you be terribly upset if we lynched kyle while you were on V/LA?

2.) Vanity compels me to ask - why are flinter and I in parentheses in your bracket thing? I'm sure it's probably obvious and I'm just a tard but humor me please.

[hitogoroshi]

Hi there, L-1.

Mafiascum is doing the lag thing and making my re-read take longer than it should, but let me pop in here to say that taking someone to L-1 this fast for such specious reasoning is a bad, bad idea.

Kyle, why is looker an excellent choice for tonight's kill?

[hitogoroshi]

Reck its not a false dichotmy. IMO if kyle is town (or mime) there was pry at least one scum on hiswagon at the end of the day yesterday. I think that scum is elf by process of elimination - Its not me and I don't think its you.

Posting from my phone to unvote vote: xofelf before I lose access.

I'm normally a fan of wagon analysis but this is a little specious. dry-fit was also a non-scum - why assume there's going to be exactly one scum on each mislynch wagon?

I still like my vote on kyle. Looking at the speed of the dry-fit wagon makes me start to think it could have been a scum counter-wagon somewhere. More importantly, flinter, while you say you think kyle's self-vote was townie and I disagree (it's an easy enough tactic for scum to do), I think the one thing we can agree on is that kyle is almost certainly not a mime.

FWIW, Gerty's biggest scum target was myl. Kise sadly didn't really seem to offer up too many reads.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh my god that is actually ten kinds of brilliant. Yeah mafia, if he ain't one of yours he's a mimey and you're gonna lose if we lynch him.

For the record, I am not mafia.

This game has had a sickeningly high level of noise in it and I'm glad it's resolved to something a bit more concrete because I don't really want to wade through those last few pages.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh dear lord that was lucky and awesome. I never would have guessed Rhinox-mime.

We are in a surprisingly good position after our terrible start. We get one more mislynch before it's LYLO. Granted not great odds with our vig gone, but after the dismal, all-noise-no-signal D2, I'm just happy we've managed to give ourselves a days worth of breathing room.

Unfortunately, the mimes do not know who the scum are, so we don't have much in the way of associative tells.

I know I've been neglecting this game a little of late - with the mime element finally out of here I'm gonna give it another long, hard, look.

One immediate thought - Looker, you're right that myl's trick doesn't work when he's at L-1. But you posted

between him being placed at L-1 and his next post

, goading him to self-hammer. For heavens sake, why didn't you unvote and try to play along? It's not something scum would really have an incentive to do, but the idea is that you pretend it is and see if the scum fall for it.

[hitogoroshi]

oh hello L-1, how are you today

[hitogoroshi]

L-1 wagon, L-2 wagon.

Rhinox-mime would have wanted to hit scum, so I think we might be able to take his scum read on xofelf at face value. She has posted very little.

Kyle said he'd refrain from voting xscorp because of his miminess. But that contrasts with the xscorp is scum case he made earlier.

Hito's thoughts - flinter and reck are probably town. kyle is probably scum. xof has posted very little content and makes a good lynch target but falls behind kyle in terms of scuminess. looker could go either way. xscorpion...I'm not sure. leaning town because I don't see scum getting to L-1 that goddamn fast. I think there's probably at least one scum on xscorpion.

vote: kyle99

(L-2)

[hitogoroshi]

You've been aggressively calling for clarity in a confusing game, which is town. And you seem as frustrated as I am in a way that's hard to fake, which I'm also willing to call a town tell.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh I was worried you hammered there for a second. Nice job paying attention.

Xscorpion:

Sorry Looker, I never liked scum. I always hate playing scum on this site, it's usually pretty obvious when I am.

rephrase this.

[hitogoroshi]

flinter, if you don't think kyle is scum, what is your game plan? I have a really hard time buying scorpion is scum given the sequence of events today. If you want to push a wagon besides either of those two I'm listening, but don't keep that to yourself.