Open 187- Silence of the Yams! Over!

[alexhans]

Hi Everyone, interesting game... I've read this game without knowing if I would be able to replace in so I didn't really know my alignment. I'm glad I did anyway because now I will lose no time. I commented as I read so there's a lot of feelings, gut reads, comments and questions on the move... But probably the most important things are my final reads so far. I eagerly await your responses and comments.

Last but not least, don't be offended if I get intense with my "bullshit" yells... I feel like a PI in mafia and I tend to act like I'm about to unmask a conspiracy

I started with some lame notes...

Ecto says he will try to be active lurker. He then asks for experience from everyone.
XScorpion claims to be kicking off bandwaggons
Nice Ecto vs badger thing... this game looks interesting
I like both ecto and badger so far.
I don't like parts very much. It might be fresh player playstyle but those questions seem irrelevant.

What I don't get though is why a scum would claim to be a lurker then decide not to...

Weird post. Is he defending ecto? Ecto did not claim lurker... he was just starting the game.

but my record is placing a serious vote on the 2nd post of the entire game.

Link? Was he scum?

Undercut... So you weren't intending to actually lurk when you made that post, despite specifically saying so?

This I don't like. Looks like a lawyer trying to set at trap for an enemy witness.

I'll try to find it, but in his first post, a player voted the only other player he knew in the game and stated that was his reason. I immediately voted him for trying to remove the one player who might know his scumtells. (I guess technically that counts as RVS kicking off the game? Mafialosophy question there haha)

meh... I'm dissapointed. That is not a serious vote. Did you seriously think he was scum for it?
61: why was it a serious vote to you? define serious.

65 Egomancer Ok dude. You just got annoying. I foresee that you will never in your life admit being wrong about something

CSL votes badger after saying he would go on VLA... for lurking... mmmmm

In this case, he came, he read, he left, hence, he lurked.

This is just ridiculous. I've done this many times when I wanted to clear my thoughts. Sometimes it's better to let things set in your head before commenting about them.

I was right.

There it goes again...

Here's a hint, don't be quite so obvious when you are defending a scumbuddy or sucking up to town.

This is bullshit. This is the kind of anti-town attitude that loses games. Either you follow up on those lame accusations or you shut up.

oh... So Ecto was replaced... interesting... might be good, might be bad... we'll see.

Wow. Even discounting that I really can't hold Ecto's behavior against Starbuck, I am curious to see Starbuck's reaction to this: Starbuck, if CSL is not your scumbuddy, who is?

Ok... wtf?

Ok guys... from Josh's Lyman's post I can only say 1 thing... He sucks or he sucks as scum... but I'm not scum so he just sucks...

Then he votes Parts for being anti-town? huh?

He basically asked the same question to every guy... "who do you think is scum"?

@ Lyman: Here it is.

Badger: For Not enough scumhunting and/or lack thereof, and bad misrepping, which is why my vote is currently on him.

Parts: Ignoring information that could help us, and lack of scumhunting.

FoS: Parts

XScorpion, for using the word "buddy." Could that mean "Scumbuddy?" Only time will tell.

Ok... winner for scum candidate #1... Lame post... mild scum.

He did not state he was away. I did.

It needs to be stated that people are going away over the holidays? Come on dude, seriously, think logically.

maybe he is using Scumlogic? Scumlogic involves seeing scummy things in others that don't apply to you for farfetched reasons.

It’s mainly because of these quotes. This reads like buddying to me because I honestly don’t think I contributed enough to deserve statements like this about my play. He is also implying that appearing neutral and non-committal is a positive thing.

What a bunch of crap...

Third scummiest is CSL for non contribution but I’m not really looking at lynching him yet.

Weird statement is weird. Saying you're not looking to lynch someone means that you're willing to leach the other people? This early?

And you believe he is town because...?

I'm liking the Starbuck/Parts team right now, mostly.

Already pulling off scumteams? How is that smart? Or are you just trying to manipulate people?

It has crossed my mind that Ecto/Starbuck and ElectricBadger could be scumbuddies who engineered this whole thing in pregame talk to combine a buddying action by Ecto with a distancing act between Ecto and ElectricBadger.

How would you engineer a buddying attempt, before the game even began? It feels like you are just trying to find something to move suspicion off you.

You are distancing yourself from both of these players in this post. Logically, Starbuck seems a more likely partner as you are distancing yet not pointing them out completely, trying to still keep most suspicion on another player besides your partner.

Hey... It would make for an awesome gambyt... specially with this kind of open game where the only PR threat to scum is a hidden macho cop...

4. No talking outside the game thread unless your role pm specifically states that you may.

If it does, you may communicate until the thread opens.

How is the bolded not clear to you that you need to ask such a question?

but

During the day you need to try and blend in, but

at night you may talk

outside the game thread.

There's 2 options. You're pretending not to know (wich would make you scum) or you're really unobservant.

So...before the thread opened it was night 0?

Badger, you are at L-1.

Claim time.

SCUMPOINTS for you my lady... There was no need for a claim with so many players absent and noncommital. If someone dared to hammer he should be lynched inmediatly. But it's fascinating how you pushed for a claim in a game where it ABSOLUTELY BENEFITS SCUM...

TELL ME ONE SINGLE SCENARIO WHERE IT WOULDNT.

FoS Starbuck

Badger wins town points because he never seems afraid of the lynch.

I smell AtE...

You seem more scummy than anyone else....

BULLSHIT... WORST BULLSHIT I'VE EVER SEEN... AtE is what scum calls when they don't have an idea what the fuck to say because they've been caught on a contradiction.

ok... 125 posts and too many people are talking about scumteams... wtf?

Why is everyone so defensive? specially Ecto and his replacement...

Crap. The AtE was for another game. Excuse that.

Yep, other than what other people pointed out.

BULL SHIT... This is one lame attempt to escape a screw up. XD Is that other game ongoing? There's nothing else you want to contribute with?

So, who are we interrogating?

Oh God... this makes me think that he might just be stupid regardless of alignment... But he is still a great lynch because people like this will lose us the game.
141 CSL: No one can be so bad... this post is NULL... doesn't tell anything nor it doesn't commit to anything. Still scum.

Next, I shall do Badger, because that's who I voted for. Expect an ISOread by the end of the day. Real-time, not Game day.

this shows that he has no clue why he is voting Badger.

Badger, feast your eyes on post 143. I said I would do an ISO of you by tonight.

Still nothing.

I forget why.

Unvote

for now.

I should do all ISO's first, before I vote.

mmmmm... Still a horrendous player.

Honestly what I feel out of this is everything revolves around ElectricBadger and Starbuck. It seems to me that Starbuck is trying to cover for some early scummy mistakes that Ecto was making, and well she's doing it pretty well.

I've have the same feeling but need to analyze ecto's meta before I can say anything conclusive. I liked his argumentations at first.
Post 152

Why is calling for his claim when he is one vote away from being lynched too early?

Why would I call for his claim after he was hammered?

I want legitimate answers to both of these questions.

1) No one should be hammering suddenly. There was no need to claim. That wasn't a serious bandwaggon.
2) stupid question deserves no response.

3) You want legitimate answers? This looks like you want to scold him as if he was giving you ilegitimate questions and lying... This pre-emptive attack is scummy.

and lastly...

Give me ONE good reason for asking for a claim (in the context in wich you asked it) if you're a town player... You have none.

But he was at L-1, anyone could have hammered him and we wouldn't have his claim.

So how was my calling for his claim WHEN HE WAS AT L-1 calling for it too early? How was he not under pressure? He was at L-1. He was one vote away from being lynched.

You could've unvoted if that was what worried you... But you wanted to force a claim out of him.

I've seen scum do this in another open game (where i was scum too). open 127, check out hascow.

Ok... CSL is not doing anything with his "ISOs"...

It's a common scumtatic to look busy to make pbpa analysis and just summarize what people did instead of giving your opinions about it. It may be informational but it doesn't show what the poster thinks. It's not scumhunting.

Good post by kunst

@kunkstar7 - That was an excellent answer in Post 158. I need to go back and re-read EB.

smart of you to recognize that. Specially if you're scum. Wich I'm beginning to suspect more and more.

163: sigh, if you don't know who he is talking about it may be because he is responding to someone! If you just ISO people without knowing what is happening you won't understand anything.

Oh, and EB, claiming when you are at L-1 needs to be done ASAP, because some people who will be willing to hammer will say something about you, then hammer you.

People like you? Those kind of people are usually super anti-town or scum and must be lynched.

So let me get this straight... you're voting Parts using evidence from your ISO of Badger, without having done an ISO of Parts yet? Yeah ok.

Yeah man... it's not so hard... He is either scum or the worst player ever.

So how in an Open game knowing that we have 2 Mafia Goons, do you get 3 obvscum voting for EB?

EDBWOP: Never mind, I completely read that wrong.

Glad you noticed. I was about to scream.

So Parts is now at L-1, time to claim bud.

Ok... you're scum trying to look consistent.

First off,

Unvote Parts

since he's at L-1; If we're gonna bother getting a replacement I'd like to hear from them before they're lynched.

see? This is what town would do! Not what starbuck did.

CSL: I'm still really not sure what to make of him. Sticky widgets for me: He's potentially an easy lynch due to his general lack of scumhunting and hypocrisy. But that would be more of a policy lynch: I don't think he's on the radar for being scum so much as for bad play. It could be easily scum-driven. I think a lynch here won't get us much info: no clear scumbuddy or in depth debate to work from tomorrow.

I understand your concern. But if you think CSL is either scum or a bad player you shouldn't worry so much about lynching him because it will remove him from the game. This kind of player could be a liability to town. If you're sure of someone else, go ahead and vote them... but don't clear CSL just because he looks like an easy lynch. Sometimes scum are that bad.

Town Reads

ElectricBadger -> town read

Leaning town reads

kunkstar7 -> neutral read but I like his little contributions.
XScorpion -> mild town read.

Neutral

Parts -> Almost nothing to go on with. He may be just new.

Scum Reads

(ectomancer) Starbuck -> The whole business of the claim just reeks scum and the way in wich he keeps reacting. He seems to be a good player but he is still scum. I'll do an ecto meta ASAP to see if it changes my mind about something.
CSL -> scum read. He doesn't make sense and seems like newb scum. He is trying to look busy with those "descriptive" Iso's.

I'm up for voting CSL or Starbuck but I think that I may vote CSL in the end because he is more anti-town (in case he was town, he would be a liability).

Mod... the votecounts are confusing... why dont you try the following format?:

Votee (number) - Voter1, voter2, ...

it clearly separates voters from votees.

oh... and

unvote Parts, vote CSL

[alexhans]

Starbucks... You asked for a claim in your 5th post! On page 5! With 111 posts. CSL had voted Badger with one sentence. You had no chance of hammering and anyone who did without warning would deserve to be lynched. You didn't unvote to make sure this didn't happen. You just wanted him to claim.

So how is it "not needed" because so many people are lurking?

It was not needed because his waggon wasn't even explained by it's members. It was too soon in the game and a pro-town attitude would've been to try to get reads from them. Wich you couldn't care less about.

And, why couldn't he be scum that doesn't want to claim his role?

Who says he couldn't. But as town, you are not supposed to know his alignment. So, you should've taken precautions. Wich you didnt.

What if someone did hammer and EB flipped scum? Why are you not thinking of all the other scenarios?

Because that is an unnecesary scenario to think about. You can't be serious about this stupid accusation (because it looks like you're accusing me of overlooking stuff that might benefit you, wich is lame and scummy). If you're town. You don't know his alignment. Therefore, you shouldn't gamble like that in the way you did. You wanted him to claim so he wouldn't be quickhammered before he did. Yet, you didn't unvote. You wanted him to claim so you could maybe get a CC? HAve you noticed the setup? 2 PRs. If one of them claims he DIES.

It's almost like you are subtly hinting that you know his alignment.

Another lame attack on the order of lame scum... You don't want to attack me directly in hopes I will leave you alone but you want to undermine my credibility. Classy.

If I was subtly hinting I KNEW HIS ALIGNMENT that would mean I knew his alignment. Only SCUM knows other peoples alignment. Subtle way to try and call me scum without catching flak for it.

1. How was it not a serious bandwagon when the guy was at L-1? One vote away from dying.

Yep... and 3 lame votes in... 2 from the most anti-town players this game and one from you. No one could hammer just because they liked. You didn't warn people not to hammer. You called for a claim. There's so many things you could've done if you were afraid of a hammer. Yet, you didn't.

2. I agree that it was a stupid question, but did you see where it stemmed from?

Yes, I do see what you're implying. My problem is with the claim you asked for.

3. Way to misrepresent me because I wasn't scolding him.

You said that you wanted LEGIMITATE anwers... As if he would lie if you didn't tell him.

It's a fallacy. Imagine if I asked you something and right after the question I said: "I want the truth this time".

If I ask you something you're obviusly supposed to tell the truth. Me treating you like that can only serve the purpose of tarnishing your credibility.

The excuse that people were lurking really doesn't fly.

That's not the main reason... And you're the one misrepping here. When you mean people were lurking you're referring to what some of us say that there hadn't been enough discussion and you couldn't possibly have decent reads on most of the players in the game. The fact that you wanted to rush a claim so early means that you didnt care to scumhunt.

Also... let's analyze the possible conclusions of a claim.

1) He claims VT. You ask for a hammer.
2) He claims Doc/Cop. He IS Doc/Cop. He may or not get lynched. He WILL be killed.
3) he claims Cop. He is scum. He may or not get lynched. If the true PR counter claims he will get killed. If the true PR doesn't claim he will jump on the waggon. He may be killed.

There's nothing positive about a claim unless the player is DEFINETLY going to be lynched.

Way to assume and misrepresent me yet again.

Point by repetition? Ad nauseaum without proof won't work for you.

Counterclaims. The only way that wouldn't work is if he was a VT.

Read my possible outcomes analysis and tell me how is it good.

Why can't I be town?

Who says you couldn't? Do you want me to call you possible scum each time? At this point. Looking at your answers... I'd say probable scum... Most likely than anyone else except maybe CSL.

So far, you seem to have a full case on me, yet you're not voting me?

And what is this? Is this an accusation? Do you think I'm scum for not voting you? Have you even read who my top 2 suspects are and why am I voting who am I voting? Have I expressed disgust for your lynch? No. Then stop BSing. thanks.

You and EB have been going on and on about how Starbuck is scum? Where's my wagon?

You can ask him yourself. I believe he said you were a bit more pro town or something. I think in a similar fashion. I think both you and CSL have acted scummy but he is a horrible player that doesn't add anything to the game. At least you seem capable of scumhunting and responding cases, attacking, etc wich could be useful even if you were scum. Also, I'd like to read ecto before getting anyone lynched because you're not just one person but a combination of 2 and I may be able to find telling reads in his play. Either way. I'm not forgetting how I thought you were scum in a game where you weren't so I want to be as sure as possible.

Parts was lurking/getting replaced, where EB was active and EB could defend himself. You are insinuating that I'd never unvote. We never got to that point, so what's with the WIFOM?

Ughh... This is not scummy. This is just lame... The overuse of the word WIFOM when people don't seem to know what it means is the most annoying thing I encounter. I keep explaining how your reasons for getting a claim could've been handled in diffent, much more pro-town ways, than asking him to claim.

Homework. Can you link me to a games where you asked for claims? Were they early? Where you town? Thanks. It may help me understand if you are, indeed, town.

You have defended EB far more than I think EB has defended himself all game.

And? What's your follow up? This is the precise bullshit scum throws to make subtle attacks. What's your opinion on this? Do you think it makes us a scumteam? Do you think I'm buddying up to him? Do you neglect the fact that I'll just STRONLY defend whoever I think is town? Especially if he is in danger of being lynched.

Read my wiki. Check out "Case Closed mafia". I entered and tried to disarm a lynch against a player named Firestarted wich I was sure of he was town. I continuosly attacked a player who ended up killing me and was SK.
I defended Mastin in Apennine mafia even though other players were bashing at him. I looked scum to a lot of people because of that defense. But I was right.

Why are you so sure of him?

Because of everything that he has said and done. I've tried to wear his boots (as I try to do with every player I analyze) and I feel he has nearly always behaved in a way that indicates town thinking. I think there's some examples of it in my previous post.

Also for the record, I have a female symbol under my name. I am no he.

I'm sorry. I'm sure I said my lady at some point. So I knew it. I just messed up. I assure you. It's worst when I play IRC mafia...

[alexhans]

/sigh

Any counterclaims out there?

sigh? You were the one who wanted claims at the first sec of L-1... Now you have them...

CSL

... Why on earth would you claim? No one was gonna insta hammer without being lynched.

I have only skimmed a little at work so I'll post later but this wasn't really necessary.

[alexhans]

Ok guys...

I'm pretty pissed at CSL for his anti-town play but the good thing is... Both players I thought were definetly scummy are removed from the game and I've almost completed a re-read on the game that is quite telling.

I'll post it ASAP.

Rule Number ONE of Lylo (2 scum 3 town):

NOBODY VOTES

. Do I make myself clear? `

Nobody

Rule Number TWO:

No claims unless we all agree to MC and the order in wich we will

Rule Number THREE:

Post your suspicions on every player from the game so far

If someone breaks any of this rules they may easyly lose the game. Don't be reckless.

[alexhans]

Voting patterns:

XScorpion

: Kunkstar7,Ectomancer, Kunkstar, CSL, Starbuck

(Parts)KDub

: ElectricBadger, CSL

(Cat, JoshLyman)alexhans

: Parts, unvote, Parts

kunkstar7

: XScorpion, unvote, Starbuck

(ectomancer) Starbuck

: ElectricBadger, unvote, ElectricBadger

ElectricBadger

: Cat, Ectomancer, Parts, Ecto, Parts, Unvote, Xscorpion, Starbuck

CSL

: kunkstar, Badger, Unvote, Parts, Unvote, Starbuck

I still think Badger is town. I'm trying to discern who is more probable to be scum with Xscorpion who I'm pretty positive is scum.

The important thing here is to go look at the reasons for the votes and the context in wich people voted. Badgers votes always had what seemed like a good intent to scumhunt.

Kunstar didnt really vote until he voted Starbucks. This looks bad. It's like as if he didn't care to pressure people.

Xscorpion joked a lot and wanted RVS to be an excuse for what he did.

KDub put CSL at L-1 in his... 2nd post?

Xscorpion READ

Xscorpion:
- Joked a lot during RVS
- Distanced himself from the Ecto/Badger fight and voted Kunstar for no apparent reason.
- "As far as I'm concerned this is still RVS until everyone is actually posting. " Maintained the pretense of RVS when called upon it
- "@Ecto- what is your opinion of RVS? " <- lame question means mild scum.
- [ulr=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 47#2028647]ISO 14[/url] feels a bit better but I still get the feeling that he is trying to look active without doing much.
-"In my experience, first page RVS votes almost never indicate scum...it is the reactions to said votes that lead to slips. " Yet. He never looked like trying to read or analize reactions
- "Did scum get a chance to talk to each other before the game started?" Typical bullshit question... It may be null but also may be used as scum to look like town...
- "So...before the thread opened it was night 0? " Kept at it.
- "You and CSL both are thinking Badger/XScorpion scum team huh? " mmm, I don't like this. It makes me suspect a scumteam that I would've previously disregarded.
- finally a non one liner post. Still doesnt say much... Uses the same arguments Badger and I used.
and finally... The vote to L-1 post...

Xscorpion has been laid back all game. Suspecting based on pretty much the same things me or Badger said previously.

He has avoided talking too much and commited as less as he could. I'm pretty confident he is scum who tries to hide. He said a lot of logical things (wich I liked) but didn't show a scumhunting intent. EVER.

Alexhans, you came into this quite strong.
In my view, I'm leaning more Starbuck, considering some things that have been pointed out this page. Between the claim situation and the answers on this page, she's a more likely candidate than any other at this point. The reason I'm leaning Starbuck is because although CSL has been playing badly, a lynch on him won't give us anything to work with the next day. From one of my previous posts I pointed out that the alignments in this game seem to revolve around Starbuck and ElectricBadger. With a Starbuck lynch I think we will have the best position for the next day.

Vote: Starbuck

I have some problems with this... Kunstar implied that CSL lynch would give us less info than a Starbuck lynch when CSL had been much more lurky and anti-town. Now that they're both dead. What do you get from all this? (192 says more about it)

alex, can you cut down on the line-by-line analysis? You don't have to respond to every single sentence in its own quote box, it makes it hard to see your main point.

I'll try. I usually try to cover EVERYTHING. You never know wich answer might give you a good read.

200 from Kdub
is pretty logical and accurate in his reads. The only thing I dislike is that he just voted putting CSL at L-1 without showing any kind of expectation for an answer. Did he not know that CSL might end up claiming? But I like his following post attacking starbucks.


CSL's playstyle this game was horrible and really anti-town. Starbucks actions were not so scummy at first but later become really weird with all his asking for a claim and then trying to pretend that it was not his fault tha CSL claimed.
If I have to call the scumteam, right here, right now... I'll say Xscorpion + Kunstar7.

and in 214 comes XScorpions sudden vote that looks too opportunistic after everyone is attacking Starbucks... I don't like it.

Really not liking how you've been so eager to get claims, and now the doc has (supposedly) been revealed thanks to your demands for everyone to claim at L-1.

This has been brought up by others and challenged by Starbuck a couple times before, but you've never commented until now. Any reason for that?

^^THIS.

although there was a mild connection between Badger and Xscorpion... I still like Badger's actions and feel they're genuinely town. His post of today looks town (he doesnt want the cop, apparently)

Also, he was the only person who voted Xscorpion and looks like he posted good reasons for it. check it out

Something else that doesn't look good about Xscorpion is the fact that he avoided so much as a comment in the game when day 2 started (and he posted elsewhere)

reading parts I don't see too much of a connection with who I currently think is scum so I keep guessing that it's Xscorpion + kunstar7.

So...

questions:

Xscorpion:

Who do you think is scum? What do you think about my case on you? Do you think I interpreted you wrongly?

Kunstar:

As I said. I want you to develop on Starbucks and CSL deaths. What do you make of them now that they flipped? You have ALSO avoided posting here while posting elsewhere... why is that?

Kdub:

What do you think about my case on Xscorpion and kunstar7? Do you think there's any telling links between players? Who and why?

Badger:

I'd like your opinions about my post too.

[alexhans]

I've written an answer to your question in my notes and will post it once Xscorp and kunkstar7 come.

also... sorry kunkstar7... I've been calling you kunstar...

[alexhans]

Another thing is alexhans has basically excused himself and everyone who voted CSL or Starbuck with the following quote.

Really, then why do I suspect people? Everyone voted either Starbucks or CSL... That means I've excused everyone? Bullshit.

CSL's playstyle this game was horrible and really anti-town. Starbucks actions were not so scummy at first but later become really weird with all his asking for a claim and then trying to pretend that it was not her fault that CSL claimed.

I don't like this, it provides you with an easy excuse to wriggle out of blame for voting either one.

I don't need an excuse for voting either one... I posted what I thought about them and still think CSL is one of the worst players I've seen so far (He lynched Starbucks with no real need and played an awful game). Also, you voted for them too... If you're town, you were wrong too...

It's not just about being right or wrong but about the reasons someone has to do stuff and the context in wich they do it.

I DARE you to say I had no reason for voting CSL. I dare you to challenge my thoughts were I disagreed with Starbucks.

Also, If you have something to say about it. Why didn't you mention it earlier? When I was attacking both CSL and Starbuck?

Developing on their deaths, CSL changed when he claimed doctor. Up until that point his play was, as you stated, "horrible and really anti-town." His lurking and general nonposts didn't relate much into this game besides the fact that he was being scummy. This in effect creates a null-tell, as everyone viewed CSl as just being anti-town, with no irregularities. When he claimed doctor he gave the scum the chance to remove a known power role from the game.

This is an empty paragraph...

You say that CSL was anti town and lurking and scummy but that it was a null tell? Who the HELL viewed him as just anti-town? I don't vote if I think someone is just anti-town, I vote someone because I think he may be scum and in the WCS, just an anti-town player.

"When he claimed doctor he gave the scum the chance to remove a known power role from the game." WTF. You're not saying anything. Looks like filler.

I would also like clarification from Kdub as to whether he was asking for a massclaim or agreeing with alex that order should be determined first. If he was saying that he would like a massclaim, that looks scummy in my mind as he so far is the only one that has leaned that way, and scum would be the only benefactor of that at the moment.

Wait, can he agree that "the order should be determined first" without asking for an MC? What happens if the cop has a town/scum result? Do you think the cop should just play silently? If someone else was also calling for MC, would you think it would be scummy? or the fact that he is the only is the deciding point?

This "development" on CSL and Starbucks death is really unimpressive... Why was it impossible to mention Part's possible buddying yesterday? Why couldn't you look at both possible outcomes as I once asked you to do, IIRC?

Who do you think is scum? Did you re-read the game or something?

[alexhans]

Taking a random stab at a scumteam, I'm gonna guess that it's kunkstar & KDub. I'm getting a very strong town feel from Badger, and I highly doubt that Starbuck's lynch didn't have any scum on it, leaving Kunkstar the obvious choice. Not to mention that he had no non-random votes for all of day 1 except for Starbuck, which I do not like. If he was so suspicious of CSL, why did he never vote him? KDub's suggest for a mass claim earns scumpoints from me, and the fact that he put CSL at L-1 so quickly after joining is a little suspicious.
Pretty sure Badger and Alex are the other 2 town.

Based on this I'm getting more and more town feel on Kdub. His MC reasoning was not ilogical for a town player and you're grabbing other people's arguments to try and make a point. You're still very lame and generic and refused to discuss the points I made against you.
-----

Perhaps I should clarify that I meant that you excused everyone for the singular action of voting either CSL or Starbuck. Basically made it seem like they were asking for it, and it was coming to them, so it can't be telling of anyone.

You're stil ignoring the fact that I gave very good reasons at the time and no one, save Starbucks, contested them. So there's no need for me to excuse myself. Even if I WAS scum and felt guilty, nobody was bashing me for it.

I did not say that your reasons for voting either CSL or Starbuck were misplaced. I was stating that that quote provides a convenient cover in the case of anyone seeing a tell in anyone voting either of those two.

In my experience, this kind of lame attacks come solely from scum. You're saying that I need a

convenient cover

. That can only imply that I'm scum. Yet, you don't seem to think that? So it's just intended as a "reputation tarnisher" so maybe other people will suspect me?

What I was going here was why the CSL lynch provided less info than Starbuck. Everyone viewed CSL as being anti-town, so any possible partners were thrown out the window. I say anti-town because EB mentioned that he was mostly under pressure for bad play rather than scumminess.

EB did. But I did not. Read my posts. I somewhat agree with what you're saying. CSL, being more anti-town and random might be harder (or maybe just different) to connect with someone else but, I want you to make an exercise, assume Starbuck scum. Who would be his partner and why?

He would not have necessarily been the lynch, but he would have been one of the major suspects and under a lot of the pressure to defend himself from the start of the day due to the way everyone viewed him yesterday. Hence me saying lynch target instead of straight lynch.

Bullshit. Kunkstar7. If someone wanted to counterclaim, he would've done so when CSL Claimed, or kept voting. What would be the purpose of shutting up when you can't really protect the cop? It's much better to just CATCH scum. I don't know if you're really naive or pretending to be. I've thought about this to see if there was possible WIFOM to be played by scum but there was none. None, whatsoever.

I didn't expect CSL to hammer right after I placed the vote...Starbuck wasn't the first person at L-1, so I assumed that town wouldn't hammer unless everyone had discussed it first (as they did with CSL). Not to mention that CSL didn't even bother to ask Starbuck any questions (which might have changed CSL's mind about things, but it's too late now to know)

Dude... This is incredible... You are surprised by hammers from an anti-town player you claimed to be anti-town all game... If you REALLY cared about Starbuck's situation you would've unvoted. Unluckily for you, the one who hammered had to die.

No. There is zero benefit for town with this. Our top suspect will claim when we are prepared to lynch, and then the cop only needs to counterclaim if the fake claim is convincing.

Your suggestion will almost certainly lead to either a cop claim (accomplishing the same as mass claim without deciding on an order first) or a ton of WIFOM. Do you see why?

Kdub is right. It's too Wifomic. You're making a player decide between a cop claim and a cloudy hypothetical counterclaim and, let's remember, ONE wrong town vote, and we lose.

Lol everyone ran away.
Should we just pick a target then lynch?
I'm up for KDub or Kunkstar, whichever you guys prefer.

Lol... Dude... You clearly don't give a shit. You just want a mislynch... You had NOTHING else to say. Town likes to hunt. Your posts at lylo suggest you're not trying and you can't excuse it with the fact that you're playing a lot of games because there's no intent to it.

ImaginaryVote: Xscorpion.

Not sure of the second. Kdub seems suspicious, but kunkstar is feeling worse and worse. Been posting several times elsewhere while we've been waiting for his response here.

Wow... I didn't notice this. I intended to check profiles but I forgot about it. Any answers for this behaviour, kunkstar7?

I didn't want to announce it before kunkstar and Xscorpion accused someone (because they really havent) but chances are more than 80 % that I will vote for XScorpion

Sorry for the delay... But I've been waiting on who I believe to be the scumteam to DO something.

[alexhans]

Based on this I'm getting more and more town feel on Kdub.

I didn't follow how the Xscorpion quote made Kdub feel town - explain?

It's just a reaction to what I believe to be lame attacks from kukstar7's part. He has this scummy way of attacking people without really commiting to it that I do not like.

The fact that the cop is macho escaped me until you mentioned this.

Don't expect me to consider this seriously because Xscorpion who is 99 % scum at this point did post question regarding mafia actions as if he was town. Pretending is possible.

kunkstar, read your ISO. Day 2. Look for places where you mention XScorpion... nope, there aren't. Just the last post where you say he is scum number 1. Where did that come from?

Kunk and Alex - are you firm enough in your suspicions to ask X for a claim?

Yep. I said I would most probably vote him so yeah.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... bc#2071667
nice...
So he is saying he wont vote because he will get lynched? If you thought someone was scum you would invest time in it and make a case. Yet, you DONT say that. You're thinking with a scum mindset. "How do I AVOID getting lynched", instead of... "who's scum? How do I get THEM lynched?".

So from my point of view, I (and by extension, town) am pretty screwed. The fact that people have stopped posting here is not helping either. Is anyone still even watching this topic? No one has posted for more than 24 hours, wtf. If you're going to lynch me, hurry the hell up plz, I don't like waiting.

YOU Are not posting. YOU are not trying and now you call for a lynch on you because you don't like waiting? That is SO bullshit...

Kdub... after reading that post... what do you expect him to claim? Cop? he is clearly NOT the cop or he would've claimed it instead of calling for his own lynch.

Based on this I'm getting more and more town feel on Kdub.

I didn't follow how the Xscorpion quote made Kdub feel town - explain?

It's just a reaction to what I believe to be lame attacks from kukstar7's part.

The fact that the cop is macho escaped me until you mentioned this.

Don't expect me to consider this seriously because Xscorpion who is 99 % scum at this point did post question regarding mafia actions as if he was town. Pretending is possible.

kunkstar, read your ISO. Day 2. Look for places where you mention XScorpion... nope, there aren't. Just the last post where you say he is scum number 1. Where did that come from?

Kunk and Alex - are you firm enough in your suspicions to ask X for a claim?

Yep. I said I would most probably vote him so yeah.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... bc#2071667
nice...
So he is saying he wont vote because he will get lynched? If you thought someone was scum you would invest time in it and make a case. Yet, you DONT say that. You're thinking with a scum mindset. "How do I AVOID getting lynched", instead of... "who's scum? How do I get THEM lynched?".

So from my point of view, I (and by extension, town) am pretty screwed. The fact that people have stopped posting here is not helping either. Is anyone still even watching this topic? No one has posted for more than 24 hours, wtf. If you're going to lynch me, hurry the hell up plz, I don't like waiting.

YOU Are not posting. YOU are not trying and now you call for a lynch on you because you don't like waiting? That is SO bullshit...

Kdub... what are you expecting from XScorpion? A cop claim? You'd like a counterclaim then? Because XScorpion is obviously NOT the cop at this point or he would've claimed it instead of calling for his own lynch because no one was posting.

Vote XScorpion

This has dragged long enough. This is too obvious. XScorpions responses do not fit at all with a town POV. Tomorrow will be lylo again. Follow the same rules as today. Be very cautious. Everybody can be scum. If possible, read what you can of the game again.

oh... preview edit... Badger... you're stalling... Why are we not prepared for a lynch? Tell me what responses of XScorpion make him look town. Read them and tell me.

[alexhans]

I'm sorry I screwed up the vote format.

Vote XScorpion

[alexhans]

oh... preview edit... Badger... you're stalling... Why are we not prepared for a lynch? Tell me what responses of XScorpion make him look town. Read them and tell me.

Wha huh?

I was the one pushing to get the claim formality out of the way and finish the day; you were the one we were all waiting on for a response. What makes you think I'm not ready for a lynch?

I don't support demanding a claim when we're not prepared to lynch. As per the arguments with Starbuck, that can only harm town.

[alexhans]

EBWOP: That's your quote, Starbucks...

Anyway... I might be unable to post for a couple of days depending on wether I need to get hosptialized for an injury I have. I will post tonight or tomorrow If I don't. Else, bear with me for a couple of days.

Thanks.

[alexhans]

This should be fairly easy now.

We will Mass Claim. Everone say who you think should claim first.

I think kunkstar7 should be the first to claim.

I'll wait for your responses.

[alexhans]

Ok... It's set then. Kunkstar must claim and then decide who should claim after him.

[alexhans]

right... And? You didnt inspect anyone else?

no... You didn't forget last night's action... You've just fucked up... again... Defeatist attitude because you knew that one of us was cop and knew who you were scum, right? You look like XScorpion's last posts... They were a bit sad... XD

Good job, Anyway... At least you guessed I was the cop today... I thought it was pretty obvious with my whole attacking XScorpion yesterday but it seems that you had to kill badger because we were all saying he was town... right?

As you already know... I'm the Macho Cop... I inspected Xscorpion night 1 and Kunkstar7 night 2. Both came up mafia wich makes me want to congratulate myself for my great play...

I had the hope that he would claim cop and say town on me or scum on Kdub and it would be auto-win... but you can't have everything, can you?

anyway... Kdub. It's still easy. Check out both our Isos and see who's obv cop and who isnt... My god... look at his claim... It's afraid scum that's trying to give away as little as possible. He doesn't say anything about me... He doesn't even try to fit the scumteam that should be concluded after his inspection...

I mean... He didnt even said who he had targeted on n1... He also appeared to not know how the macho cop role worked at some point of day 2. Wich doesn't fit if he actually WAS a Macho Cop. He would know the role by heart.

He didnt even vote Xscorpion and never really suspected him either... His whole play has been laid back and trying not to be involved in anything too serious. He just voted 2 times on d1 and that's that. I think that a search on his ISO will show almost no suspicion on XScorpion until we all said XScorpion was scum.

XScorpion didn't attack him. He put YOU first when he said "let's lynch someone, I'm up for Kdub or kunkstar7"... he was bound to mild-buss someone... and he did... But not as first choice... He tried to throw shit your way for the wanting to MC thing... Remember when I said you looked townier because of it? That's because I KNEW XScorpion was scum and being attacked by him (in a genuine way) made you more town.

Lol everyone ran away.
Should we just pick a target then lynch?
I'm up for KDub or Kunkstar, whichever you guys prefer.

As you can see by reading my ISO... I went for XScorpion from the start of d1 and "Kept trying to find his scumpartner"... I'm proud to say I called it in my 2nd post of d2.

Also... it will be interesting to see an attempt of an explanation once he "reveals" his n1 "target"... Where did he act upon it?

Vote Kunkstar7

Also... I don't know what is he waiting for with that post... Claiming Cop and saying Kdub was town (without claiming the first action) and not voting me... that makes no sense... If you're town you're town. There's no sanity in this game. He is acting as he did all game... Extremely mild and waiting on town to trip up and lose the game on their own...

Not gonna happen, buddy... We have you.

Cheers...

[alexhans]

That's ok Kdub.... I encourage Kunkstar7 to ask me questions and post his reasons for his actions as "Cop".

In the meantime... I'm going to make sure you don't miss some highlights from his ISO.
Kunkstar7's ISO 21:

The fact that the cop is macho escaped me until you mentioned this. My line of thinking was if a claimed doctor had somehow made it through the night, wouldn't it have been a little suspicious? I can see no other motives the scum would have to kill someone else. Yet since the cop can't be protected, the doctor would have just been wasting the best chance we had to lynch scum.

This is what I was talking about earlier about Kunkstar7 not knowing the cop role. Note that he probably gave serious thought about not killing CSL for WIFOM wich is why he kept saying things like "CSL might've been lynched today". He didn't really realize how the game went.

Also... ISO 21 is THE first post where he goes after XScorpion, when XScorpion had already posted shit like this and was obvscum:

Lol everyone ran away.
Should we just pick a target then lynch?
I'm up for KDub or Kunkstar, whichever you guys prefer.

Some other Kunkstar7 quotes come to mind:

Yes my vote is still my original random vote and honestly has no purpose where it is at the moment. I am not very judicious with my votes.

As it is a baseless vote, there is no need for it Unvote.

This one demonstrates his absolute mildness the entire game.

2. If the cop has a result, they most likely can find a way to get their point across with jepordizing their hiding.
3. Not silently. If they have a result, they should lead the town to that without giving themselves away (Unless that's what you meant by silently. In that case yes.). They save themselves for the final day and give us a result.

And this one is really interesting because I don't think he did what he said a cop would need to do.

[alexhans]

Good job, yet again. ElectricBadger was your only possible claim (you said he was town once or twice, probably because you thought he was the cop, hence, the EB kill)

Still... You didn't claim it.

Now. Why did you "inspect" EB? Wasn't he town to you on day 1?

He equates the same amount of suspicion to both of us, you are just trying to weight it to pass suspicion

WRONG. HE suspects you by process of elimination. You're NEVER his number 1 target. He calls Kdub scummy for "wanting an MC"

I think it was not Xscorpion who was the scum bussing, but you

You think???? sigh... you're so lame... OBVIOUSLY you SHOULD think it was a buss if you hat a town result on KDub. That would make ME scum and therefore I would've bussed XScorpion...

You still don't say anything.

It was a strong bus so when the lynch went through you would look so town.

Yes, of course and I would also risk a lot in an unnecesary way... But, yeah, it's possible.

ElectricBadger had already come up with some points against Xscorpion and he was already looking bad, so why not go full out here and win a lot of town points?

Yep, but you didn't buss him until it was too late XD

Now you are just equating it to a cop result to help you out, its easy to say you "investigated" Xscorpion now that we all know he is scum.

haahhahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaha

You're so full of it... XD

DUDE... Tell me that I didn't clearly show that I was intent on voting XScorpion? All day i went after him. But I couldn't be too direct so I went bit after bit.... saying 80% then 99%... I KNEW he was scum... But I couldn't out myself.

Xscorpion only made a few comments regarding alex, most of them basically saying alex was "looking town".

And? You posted that too. You're not saying anything with this. I was town to, I think, everyone in the game.

You're pretending that I went on a full buss from d1 in hopes that I could completely WIFOM the town and beat a cop in lylo?

Pretty sure Badger and Alex are the other 2 town.

This is from the same post where he calls his "scumteam". Trying to make sure everyone stays with a town read on alex.

Dude... you're sad...
You, me and XSCorpion... we 3 said that EB was town. Both of you said I Was town. What's more likely for a scum player? To buss his partner or not buss him? You could argue it can go either way but XScorpion couldn't really say I was scummy without support. It would look like OMGUS and he was afraid to get lynched. If we had planned on a buss he could've perfectly attacked me... THis is all pretty wifomic so I won't pay too much attention to it. But the fact that you're trying to make it an argument when it actually is more condemning to you than to me is funny.


You STILL haven't answered why you didn't fullly claim.

You still haven't even tried to make much sense of why things would be like they should be if you were cop.

You just quoted XScorpion saying I was town and expect that I'm going to look scummy for it...

sigh...

XScorpion said EB was town... Does that make him scum too? Yeah... I thought so...

You fail.

Also, kunk... what about the "I dont know how the macho cop works" thing?

Why haven't you answered my points?

[alexhans]

Well... Good Game Badger and KDub...! I feel good about this game despite my erratic activity... I think I lived up to my PR.

I was pretty misguided on day 1 due to CSL's anti-town playstyle and some of Starbucks actions (Like the unnecessary claim requests) but it wasn't a total wreck because CSL's doc claim meant scum had to kill him removing one anti-town player from the game and leaving the cop alive.

Scum had an easy 1st day but later they were haunted by their laid back playstyle... Because Badger always looked really town to me.

By the way... I'm going to lynch Starbucks only if he is acting town-like, next time because I always suspect him wrongly

I think that the way in wich we approached lylo (the 3 commandments ) proved to be a great idea to avoid any surprises or mistakes from any of us.

I'm surprised I wasn't killed on night 2. I thought that my consistent attack on XScorpion might've been revealing but I guess I provided decent enough reasons and took enough time so as to not look obvious.

What do you guys think? Who did you think the cop was?

Mod

... I'd like to know your opinions on the game...

I'd also like to see scum's quicktopic and see who CSL protected (because I already know my actions). It's always a good idea to add this information after a game.

[alexhans]

That's ok, kunk... but, hey! I did post a disclaimer about it:

Last but not least, don't be offended if I get intense with my "bullshit" yells... I feel like a PI in mafia and I tend to act like I'm about to unmask a conspiracy

I was agressive when I felt the need to be that way. Similar to a lawyer that needs to convince a jury or unmask a lying witness.

I was also terrified that I would get lynched being a cop with a scum result. I would consider it a huge failure on my behalf to possess every bit of the truth and still be unable to win the game. That should partly explain my intensity.

Good game, anyway... I look forward to playing with you some other time.

And too bad you don't have a QT... Bad Mod, Bad!!! I love reading quicktopics after a game... :/

[alexhans]

Dude... I

Couldn't be protected

.

I couldn't out myself or I would definetly be killed.

This setup relied on the cop being able to use his information without outing himself and on scum removing the cop before he could get damaging info out.

I know this open setups are hard for scum but, in the end, it all comes down to skills and playstyle.

This is another open setup I played as scum:
Mafia: Roleblocker, Goon. Town: Cop, Doc, 3 townies

We forced the Cop and the doc to claim. Then blocked the cop and killed the doc.

[alexhans]

By the way... I'm going to lynch Starbucks only if he is acting town-like, next time because I always suspect him wrongly

Starbuck is a SHE

I always mix genders... I told you so.

My plan was to remove Starbuck from the game to have town get a clearer hold of what was going on. My plan worked, and we celebrate a town win.

I really don't understand why.

I had kunkstar nailed.

You had kunkstar nailed? XD You had ME nailed. You had Badger nailed... Everyone that disagreed with you was scum...

D1 was really rough for me. I'm still a bit boggled that both Ecto and Starbuck were both town. Lurking charges for not posting for a day is quirky. And in my final end-of-day summary read through X stood out as scum...but didn't seem like an ideal partner for Starbuck, and I felt it was too late to try to shift the lynch anyways. D2 with buck's flip he was obvscum.

So your suspicions on me really just carried over from Ecto then?

miss... what's up with you? Don't you remember your scummy actions? Your calls for a claim for each player that reached L-1? and your pretense that town had been stupid for waggoning a PR?

On hindsight, I'm glad CSL hammered you like he did. You're clearly incapable of compromising or even admitting mistakes. You just came to the thread to brag about how you had nailed scum? I must've missed that case (yes, I've looked through your ISO).

@Town - You have a long way to go. Quit letting the mafia walk all over you.

Who was the mafia walking all over us? me? Badger?

The only one who can claim to have nailed scum on d1 is Badger who made a good case against XScorpion and voted him.

[alexhans]

I always call for claims at L-1. Check any game I play.

This particular game demanded a different strategy.

check my ISO.

Also... let's analyze the possible conclusions of a claim.

1) He claims VT. You ask for a hammer.
2) He claims Doc/Cop. He IS Doc/Cop. He may or not get lynched. He WILL be killed.
3) he claims Cop. He is scum. He may or not get lynched. If the true PR counter claims he will get killed. If the true PR doesn't claim he will jump on the waggon. He may be killed.

If Badger had claimed. He wouldn't have been killed and we might've lost the game.

Asking for a claim in this setup was an awful idea. Asking for a claim with a waggon of 2 random votes and your own vote was even worse.

[alexhans]

If Badger had claimed. He wouldn't have been killed and we might've lost the game.

You are making absolutely no sense.

Oh... My... God...

I'm making no sense?

Badger and I were both VTs. It's pretty much guaranteed that a Vanilla claim is gonna get you killed.

Why do you assume he wouldn't have been killed if he claimed? I find it far more scummier that as a VT that he didn't claim.

Why would they SHOOT a VANILLA TOWNIE as opposed to a PR? That's plain stupid. Their goal was to kill the cop. Why would they target someone who had claimed vanilla?

If Badger had claimed VT then they would've known me or Kdub were the cop. Kunkstar7 himself said Kdub didn't look like a cop. Therefore, I would've died.

Also, starbuck, don't want to get too much into this conversation but I've seen a thread or two of yours in the MD forums about politeness in games. Comments like this:

Because I would hope that our town wasn't stupid enough to put our doctor at L-1.

...are probably a big reason for it. Random insults tend to be met with ill will.

The worst thing is that it was a ridiculous insult because no one knows who the PRs are so there's no way to control it. If Badger had been a doc or a cop then Starbucks would've done what she expected the town should not do.

That really wasn't an insult though. I would hope ANY town in ANY game wouldn't be stupid enough to put their doctor L-1.

You will never be wrong. You will never admit a mistake because you make none. We get that...

if you think a player is scummy or scum you vote him. You don't know his role until he reveals it.

You're going to tell me you never voted a town PR? Or will it be their fault if you vote them? You're not going to be part of "stupid town" if you're the waggoning, right?

[alexhans]

My name is Starbuck, not Starbucks. The chick from Battlestar Galactica, NOT the coffee company.

I can't... I will always screw up something... be it kunstar instead of kunkstar or he instead of she or adding an S to Starbucks...

I now understand why Badger didn't claim. I didn't understand then why it would be considered scummy to call for a claim. Instead of going out of your way to insult me, you could have broken it down. This is my first uber small game. I'm used to playing Mini Themes or Large.

I didn't start the insults. You called the waggon on the doc stupid town. I was part of that waggon. I felt insulted.

Check the link of the open game I posted. Calling for a claim with no real need was a nice scumtactic to uncover the PRs (or at least narrow the pool) and beat that game.

[alexhans]

Wow, okay, alex. You win! Are you happy now?

The game is over dude, cool your heels.

Hey... I just answer posts.

[alexhans]

The only one who can claim to have nailed scum on d1 is Badger who made a good case against XScorpion and voted him.

Actually Ectomancer had me called early Day 1 xD

That doesnt count dude... He didnt act upon it.