Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[Kise]

Kise should chime in with a day 1 analysis

Cot damn it dramo didn't tell me this was 40 pages lol. I'll see what I can do. I'm gonna be cliche and say that if anyone wants to direct me to a post/concern, I'll give thoughts on it, if it helps move the phase along. I'll do a pbp thing like tomorrow night. Probably won't get higher than page 10.

[Kise]

Can someone tell me who I'm replacing so I know not to assess them?

[Kise]

I know kittomo is one but who was before her?

[Kise]

K Serial, Shotty and Kiku are scum.

Well with 1 scum down, aren't there only 2 left..?

[Kise]

Silly me. And thanks, Shotty.

[Kise]

It's kinda creepy when I click on a thread and see I'm being talked about... Chill, all. I'm making progress. My other games are in night phase mostly so I've been here all day.

If you all need an update, I'm on the page where ABR and hewitt are going at it. At least when they first start going at it since I'm not sure how long this keeps up. I'll post "content" when I've read up to the current page. I'm thinking in a few hours unless I'm tired.

[Kise]

Wasn't online yesterday. Not even on youtube, promise.

I didn't formally get any numbers on Kise's games, but he seems to be far more active when given a town power role...too lazy to go get concrete numbers, maybe later.

No, from September to earlier this month, I've been in flooded with school work, and lurking hard on MS. School wrapped up and I had about a week before christmas. I don't celebrate any kind of special occasion, but I spent time with my family for the most part. Things have settled down so my activity pattern will be drastically different until I get back into school next month.

And how come I'm not as active when I'm a mafia power role? *strokes beard* Better yet, show me where I'm less active as vanilla townie. I prefer if you pick a game of mine before September 17th.

In all my games with saber, I'm surprised he was considerate enough to do a statistical list about lynches/mislynches that were possible. Never played a game where he was anti-town but lining up mason-claims on consecutive days isn't something I'd expect him to do. Daytalking scum could have suggested this in the QT. If he's a mason himself and was just trying to throw everyone off, it's more understandable. Sorta like throwing out an idea for his partners in case he's not around. Pestering hewitt to make a [RVS] vote doesn't help me believing the latter.

IGMEO

whoever replaced him. (will check later)

Kind of off-topic, but Neto and ABR would make great Jesters.

hewitt doesn't look too good, commentary-wise. Yet, I don't think many players with a scum role would flood entire pages like this day 1. I always thought the predictable strategy was to coast through day 1 and avoid attention.

DLA gives me bad vibes. Same with CSL. Not exactly diving into conversations themselves; simply commenting on what others talk about. Not saying they have to get into arguments with others, but have some 1-on-1s, or 1-on-many. Get gangbanged like hewitt if that's what it takes.

FOS:

DLA & CSL, The Abbreviated.

LMFAO @ the mod asking for someone else to do a vote count.

Interesting that Neto earlier said he didn't like saber's attacks on hewitt. Later when it's hewitt-versus-Albert, Neto doesn't hammer and wants questions answered first. He request a deadline extension when hewitt is quite close to a lynch.. I have to wonder what it is he wanted to delay -- More specifically, I'm wondering if he wanted to keep hewitt from being lynched. He later doesn't even vote for either, instead going off to play with Elli'.

HOS:

hewitt

I'll post more if the thread isn't locked.

[Kise]

I see your avatar and it makes me forgive you.

Ah, it works. ^__^

Don't overload yourself Kise, better to be active in 1 game than constantly lurking in 5.

I'm good, thanks. I prioritize which game I give attention based on which one I haven't posted in a while. I'm caught up in all but 1 other game that I just replaced into.

{Self-Reminder: 19}

[Kise]

Alright so I'm Yarmond & Kittomo; Serial is CSL; Scigatt is saberwolf; Ojajen is Konowa/someone else (yes?)

Kise: The main point I am trying to make is that Serial believs both Shotty and myself are scum. His case against me pretty much "requires" Shotty to be scum, while the case he made against Shotty stands fine on its own imo. For some reason, Serial seems reluctant to lynch Shotty. His main reasoning for this as I recall, is that he believes scumkiku is attempting to tie townSerial to scumShotty, and trying to lynch scumShotty to frame townSerial. Its actually a bit convoluted when you think of it, but now I'm off track.

The fact is, it reads as "self preservation" to me. Self preservation is much more of a scumtell than a towntell imo. Granted, roles like "cop" and "doc" are town roles which at times require self preservation type play. But this is an open set-up. There are still two townies out there who can confirm each other. There is no real reason for vanilla townies to act in an overly self preserving manner, especially if they think they have caught scum. If Serial really believes Shotty is scum, then he shouldn't be so hesitant to lynch him. But he is hesitant and he seems to have even had to talk himself into voting me instead of Shotty.

Even if Shotty flips town, I think SC

is scum

with someone else.

It's not a policy lynch if he's genuinely scummy. That sort of posting pattern isn't lurking, it's actively not posting. He's probably scum.

Kill me tonight if you want a better chance of surviving tomorrow. I iso'd CSL for shits and giggles and he's as good as claimed scum. Then Albert psychology makes you admit to being partners with Neto. How that was passed off today, I don't know. It won't be overlooked tomorrow.

Kise NEEDS to be grilled tomorrow no matter what the shotty flip.

having three separate people flake is much more scummier than one, and it's been for two copmlete days AND the content that we've had has been shocking.

My predecessors look like George Clooney compared to CSL. Get real. Don't think I haven't noticed you're riding my back due to lurking.

Albert is town.

I have no idea on hewitt. If I thought ABR was scum, I'd be sure Hewitt was town, but I'm almost certain he's not. The OMGUS is to be expected after an ABR rampage (especially if, as it seems from his post, he didn't quite get what ABR was about). Not the worst lynch in the world, actually. Deserved to have been policy lynched for quoting ABR's entire iso

We can do better than a policy lynch on hewitt. Don't try to excuse a hewitt-wagon as anything other than justified.

Top picks for scum, Shotty, Konowa, Neto.
Top picks for town, ABR, farside.

CSL was bad, not scummy. He's been replaced, get on with the game.

No. He was scummy. And bad, sure. I'm pegging Konowa as a false suspicion... What, because Konowa attacked only a handful of players he's top 3 scum choice? Where was hewitt in this list? Better yet, where is hewitt now?

Defeatist =/= scummy. It also isn't similar to when he was defeated as scum and was upbeat, jovially said that they got him and cheered on his team.

CSL did read like defeated scum. He had 3 other players voting for him before his self-vote.

Actually, KittyMo replaced that guy who hasn't said a single thing all game and hasn't caught up, apparently. That surely has to be one of the scummiest slots in the game.

No, self-voting is the scummiest thing here. It's even worse when the replacing player (you) gets defeated in a game of mind-chess by Albert.

Oh, look. Neto's coming to SC's aid after Albert ethered him. And, then look right below that! SC is having a casual convo with one of his top 3 scumspects about Albert supposedly joking. I never joke with someone I think is scum.

Just saying

[Kise]

@Serial, thank you for that. Ugh. I hate that I really want you to be town this game. Symptoms of a white knight syndrome or something.
I actually sympathize with your scumread on Kise/Kittymo with a degree of caution, if I had to call it right now it would be Kise/Scigatt.

You two must have went over distancing in your QT last night . I also noticed you have a habit of getting cozy with SC here. Is there a story on you two outside of this game? I think that'd help me.

I'm not sure why kise is focused on Hewitt as scum do to Neto withholding his vote. Neto withheld his vote on DLA< CSL and hewitt. Just saying

Was DLA in hammering range?

That's basically all I have from kise. He is attacking SC based on Hewitt being probable scum with Neto and pushing Hewitt as scum based on the L-1 where neto said he would hammer but didn't.

Nah I'm looking at SC based on his interactions & slips against Albert, plus CSL's behavior doesn't help. SC tried to lie to me and say that CSL self-voted when he wasn't in trouble... Well, hello!? CSL had 3 votes (iirc) on him before he self-voted. SC tried to mislead me at the end of yesterday and that only further digs him in the hole as far as I'm concerned.

@Kise: Your slot needs emergency content.

What do you think about Scigatt, hewitt and DLA? Do you have other suspects besides Serial?

Scigatt/saberwolf isn't pinging my scumdar at the moment. DLA and hewitt make me cringe. I'd put Serial & hewitt together as the likelier team -- farside just pointed out Neto's neglect to hammer hewitt as he instead went off to vote for someone else AFTER saying he would decide whether he should pick hewitt or Albert's side. Right now we only need 2 more scum, so DLA is on the backburner a bit. Serial and hewitt are my bets. I'm not comfortable with your recent coming of aid to Serial, but I'll reserve judgment on that until you answer my above question.

NO MORE QUESTIONS UNTIL I AM CAUGHT UP PLEASE

I'm in the page 20 mark and will be updating my opinions on everything done thus far in the game. I will let it be known when I am on the current page.

(That is correct, I didn't read anything overnight)

[Kise]

Since D1 lynches are traditionally worse than random, it would seem to me that the best course of action is to lynch a player that will be the least useful on D2, but will still provide reads on players. To me, DLA and Hewitt satisfy this bill.

Then why was it a no-go, I have to wonder[?]

To be clear, I've always felt Neto is the biggest pro-town player we have. He is really good at putting pressure and making good posts. Do not vote for Neto.

Neto has since flipped scum. Thoughts on this, anyone?

Page 33. What I've learned so far is that DLA's reads are not dependable and Ellibereth can't settle on his stance for anything in this world. And Serial is still scum.

Yeah, look, Elli just rained on my parade pretty damn hard to be honest... Are the mafia daytalkers in this game? I wouldn't put it past you to have organised that just to put me in my place...

Scummy as hell. Clergyman, you've been stroking my e-dick all game praising me as town and talented, and here you accuse me of

being scum with Ellibereth.

For your information, there is no day-talking in this setup, but your quick, careless turnaround is proof that you're a scumbag mascaraing in sheep's clothing.

ABR - I was saying that the bus was MY bus of NETO, because you've been linking us together as scum. It was a JOKE, as indicated by the yellow grinning man.

You joked about bussing your partner Neto? Is that it?

Yes, I did.

So you're admitting that Neto is your partner.

Classic.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but CSL has self-voted as scum here

His tone is almost the same as here.
I'll be happy lynching Neto or SC today. They're both scum.

So far, I feel like settling for an SC lynch. Neto makes a post sympathizing with players that replace in. It's laughable to think mafia have a heart. He's probably trying to tap into everyone's emotions and get them to back off of SC, at least for D1. A lot of things point back to Serial as scum from proven scum [Neto]. I can't wait to see why Shotty got strung up instead yesterday.

Serial

is prob town. I would HATE to lose to him if he's scum so I'm harboring an extra layer of paranoia to the guy.

You would hate to lose a scum player here? Rephrase this as if I was a nuclear retard, because.. well, just type slow or something. Put this in other words for me.

[Kise]

Wow, SC. So you've already made up in your mind that I'm scum? Oh my goodness... u suck.

[Kise]

For the sake of meta, are you Faraday/Far_Cry also?

[Kise]

Hewitt was almost strung up and neto talked about hammering him based on nothing at all. This has me leaning town on hewitt instead of scum.

But why didn't Neto hammer him? Why did Neto instead go vote for someone else?

[Kise]

You sure CSL and DLA were at L-1? I don't recall either being put in those positions. Thing is, Neto completely dropped the hewitt thing as if he forgot about it. He didn't even say, "well I changed my mind; I think hewitt looks townie." He just.... neglected it all together.

[Kise]

Didn't Neto defend hewitt also? And.. vice versa?

gut check and after an isolated read on hewitt

vote: kise

Must be something you ate.

[Kise]

OOOOOOOHHH. I thought you typed, "I would hate to lose Serial if he's scum." My mistake.

I took today off from catching up, tee hee hee. As you can see, I'm posting like crazy all around the site. In fact, I will not be online tomorrow or at least not while the sun is out. What I planned to do & have done today is position myself into the current convo so I'm at least apart of discussion going on. I like that feeling; not being stuck in the past and having people wait on you.

Additionally, I feel like I've read enough to know I want hewitt and Serial lynched. I want to see one of them flip scum so that (while I'm reading old stuff) I know whether I'm reading their posts from mafia's perspective. What I see happening is hewitt's replacement coming in and being met by my tunnel-vision. It's not so much about hewitt appearing like frustrated townie. It's that Neto didn't put him away after implying he would pick either hewitt or ABR's side while hewitt was at L-1, and vice versa.

Farside, you have to understand that mafia can give the appearance of genuine frustration also. If everyone here decided to have a hissy fit, would you read us all as frustrated townie? Mafia can AtE in ways that aren't even direct. It's their job to make you view them in a certain light.

[Kise]

This is another double-edged sword I'm not favoring: Hewitt as frustrated townie and Neto not wanting to be a part of the mislynch, while similarly at least one scum did not want to be apart of bussing Neto.

Farside, I respect any player who's been doing this since '07 or however long, but the gameplans change often. We treat it like protocol that mafia has to play the same every game, when really games are not as predictable as we'd expect. Far, are you sticking with the opinion that hewitt is town?

[Kise]

Wow....Sorry, folks, I've been insanely busy as of late. Cases to come later tonight. Suffice it to say thta I really am not liking Ellibereth right now for her posts which just barely avoid replacement. I also don't like her putting Hewitt at L-1 without clearly stating a reason.

So... hewitt wasn't at L-1, again, you say?

[Kise]

unvote
vote: CSL

??

Unvote, vote CSL

Unofficial Vote Count based on Albert's unofficial vote count in post 369

CSL (2) - farside22, Albert

(DLA accidentally listed saber so this quote is edited as it should be, FYI)

Ridiculous, fine. DLA tomorrow.

unvote vote CSL

Eh, I'd replace out, but it wouldn't do anyone any good, now will it?

The only way I'd get out of this game is if I

Unvote

and quite possibly

Vote: CSL

There were others voting him, but they unvoted and went elsewhere. So, yeah, I'd say CSL is in trouble when he's got people that won't unvote for 4-5 pages.

This is an open game.

Does that mean I can join the game?

Raffle.

I need to figure out whether the team is hewitt-farside or SC-Ojajen... remind me gals, why am I scummy to you?

[Kise]

Ah shit... just checked, you didn't lie to me. I mistook one of your old post (from December 11th, before I was even apart of the game) as something you recently said towards me to excuse CSL's self-vote.

Defeatist =/= scummy. It also isn't similar to when he was defeated as scum and was upbeat, jovially said that they got him and cheered on his team.

CSL did read like defeated scum. He had 3 other players voting for him before his self-vote.

That's why I hate reading old shit.

RE: New Pairings: Isn't it obvious? Scum would want to keep their partners alive, so farside's revelation

today

that hewitt is town makes my nose twitch. On the other side, Ojajen has been right beneath your wings, Serial. I tend to think scum wouldn't blatantly buddy up, but it could be one of those new mindtricks I've talked about.

What's to say Neto's weak reasoning for contemplating a hewitt-hammer wasn't a tactic to discredit the wagon? I don't see why it's so friggin' far fetched to believe that scum need sloppy reasons to bus their partners. I always see scum hammer their partners and at least recycle cases the other players make.

{Off-Topic}
Serial, what made you think I was a PR in that old New York game of ours?

[Kise]

I've suspected hewitt since the end of day 2:

hewitt doesn't look too good, commentary-wise. Yet, I don't think many players with a scum role would flood entire pages like this day 1. I always thought the predictable strategy was to coast through day 1 and avoid attention.

Interesting that Neto earlier said he didn't like saber's attacks on hewitt. Later when it's hewitt-versus-Albert, Neto doesn't hammer and wants questions answered first. He request a deadline extension when hewitt is quite close to a lynch.. I have to wonder what it is he wanted to delay -- More specifically, I'm wondering if he wanted to keep hewitt from being lynched. He later doesn't even vote for either, instead going off to play with Elli'.

HOS:

hewitt

Which reminds me, if hewitt is town, he would have died at deadline. Neto requested a deadline extension which would have prevented that. So if we're seeing this the same, Neto wanted hewitt-town to live? I don't see why he would give a crap when he could have just not even been bothered to request it. I can quote Neto's request for extension to prove this.

It's weird that you [SC] suspect hewitt also (as of today, you said?), but it's not deterring me. Looking at worst case scenario, town loses with two mislynches plus two nightkills. Compared to DLA, farside, OJ, Elli and Scigatt, I'm still leaning hewitt/SC as I don't see both being mislynches. Even with the little accomplished by Scigatt, the interactions of Neto don't make me view Sci as scum.

Vote: hewitt

For what it's worth, hewitt said a few days before D1 ended that he didn't find Neto scummy, then when the lynch is inevitable he kinda agrees with it, but doesn't drop the hammer.

Farside, you say I'm the scum that wasn't on Neto's wagon... Well, who's the scum that

was

on the wagon?

[Kise]

Am I wrong in thinking that the rules say if no one has reached lynch-threshold, then the first person with highest # of votes is lynched at deadline? (this won't change my mind drastically about hewitt-scum but right now I'm thinking that hewitt could have been deadline-lynched unless I'm not understanding the rules)

RE: DLA:
He's been all over the place but English is likely not his 1st language. His opinions come across as genuine (from the heart) and not from the mindset of scum wanting to meet their objective hastily. In fact, if he was scum, I'd expect him to be the type to bandwagon rather than try and make a case. I don't think I'm wrong in saying he's been the first to vote for a player he thought was scum/scummy. Mind you, I'm taking into account that he's from Norway.

Your re-reads are kinda screwy, farside.

Vote Count

Hewitt (3) - Shotty, Albert, Ellibereth

You forgot DLA. Keep scrolling down.

Hewitt (4) : DarkLightA, Albert B. Rampage, Shotty to the body, saberwolf

...

Unvote

You both are scumtells, and nulltells...Gah, I can't decide.

You know what, hewitt's play smells slightly like AtE...

I don't know what to think of ABR.

Why did you unvote? Please vote hewitt again.

CSL places the 5th vote on hewitt, then Elli places the 6th vote, THEN DLA unvotes and votes for Elli AFTER Neto mentions DL-extension & hammering.

[Kise]

Oh, I should probably point out for everyone, this game doesn't follow the normal no-lynch-at-deadline rule - it uses the half-votes system, meaning that if any one player has 3 or more votes at deadline, that player would be lynched except in LYLO.

hewitt has 3 votes according to your votecount, farside, so still....

[Kise]

In other words, not fluent with an American-English dialect. Words are not structured the same. I remember seeing Albert & Neto joke about DLA's language earlier, and he kinda reminds me of mykonia.

Anyway, there are the 4 votes right there + CSL & Ellibereth. From here on down to post 286, Neto is doing all this hibbery jibbery which includes the request for extension to buy hewitt time.

Unvote, Vote: Ellibereth

Last few posts show a disconnect with the game, a borderline criminal lack of knowledge and a lack of original thought.

This was after DLA pursued Ellibereth (so, again, kudos to DLA for starting a case and not following). To me, it looks like Neto won't bother coming back to the ABR-hewitt situation. But really, when he does make his next post, Neto decides to go against ABR and says that he'll reread hewitt. As you just said, Elli, Neto never gets back around to that reread.

[Kise]

Well I will say this for those waiting on a replacement: I was personally asked by dram to enter the game, so it's likely that people aren't checking the queue out of interest to join an ongoing game. The best bet for replacements seem to be via referral.

[Kise]

Whoever unvoted SC earlier (and you, farside), would you consider hewitt or SC more? I didn't know SC is at L-4, so support for that lynch looks easier.

I'm sorry guys, when I read hewitt I just don't see that much scum. Just don't.

It's just like with SC. He replaced into the game and played the pimp to redeem his slot. Serial, just as Albert said, is a good mastermind when he's on a mafia team. Waiting for him to make scumslips will not help you lynch him if he's scum; at best, you have to determine a relationship based on dead scum like I'm viewing Neto-hewitt. Neto's interactions with Shotty appeared in a case used against him mid-day 2.

OJ, a few things stick out about day 2 now that I've read. My slot is being attacked (easy unresponsive target) by SC off the bat when there was nothing much said from my predecessors to warrant his labels. An interesting exchange with kiku leads to SC being attacked for not "engaging" KittyMo as he claimed to have done, as well as him stating his [heavy] suspicion of my slot is due to KM placing top suspicion on a current wagon (Neto) which

he

doesn't feel is a general action for townies replacing into a game -- on top of my first predecessor not posting at all and Kitty only posting content once.

Another thing, OJ, is your persistent aiding of Serial. There are times where you imitate him and ask me about my catching up when no one else relentlessly bothers me as much as you two, keep in mind. You mentioned earlier that you had a game or two with SC, but I don't get why that explains how you two are kind of buddying up here. On the surface it looks like Ether & Patrick, but since this relationship is only 2 games or so, I'm not comfortable with your trust of each other when there's only one mason left.

There were good suspicions and points raised against SC and hewitt by living players here, and I'm curious to know if they can be picked back up. It's rehashing, but if there's been enough said from other active players about other living players, go for it.

1. CSL gets in trouble. Neto joins the attack.
2. CSL gets replaced. Neto goes "Yay" and pulls away the attack.
3. SC is still in trouble. Neto goes "Don't lynch him!!"
4. SC is still in trouble. Neto goes "Is it fair to judge his character by the replacee? (LOL)
5. Neto gets in trouble for defending the band wagoned guy. NETO STOPS DEFENDING SC.

6. SC DEFENDS NETO.

7. Neto get's lynch as scum.

Serial disputes this. DLA, can you show where you say SC defended Neto?

Lynching hewitt still holds weight but I'm thinking SC may hold more.

[Kise]

As a reminder, here's SC's reason for voting Neto:

Neto is also a good chance of flipping scum. He's been voting the same lynchbait targets as would be expected. Suggested a policy lynch without having the balls to actually say lets policy lynch someone, which is a scumtell in my eyes. He did have the balls to vote Albert though, which redeems him slightly, because bringing blue-eyed wrath upon oneself isn't always the best option.

I gave some quotes afterwards to show what I meant. It was in my first content post. I believe it was also the first case posted on Neto, although nowhere near as extensive as Ojanen's excellent one. I'll take the hit to the ego and say he wasn't my top suspect and it wasn't the bullseye that Ojanen's was, but it'll go down in my little black book as a correct read, so can't complain.

Very likely to be the scum that was on the wagon. How much more until I can convince you about SC, farside?

[Kise]

How long until you modkill a slot? And if you did make a modkill for inactivity, could the day continue going?

I'm willing to make a deal with ya, dramoderator. If I find a replacement for Scigatt, can you MK hewitt?

I want to put 'lol', 'j/k' or a smiley face but I'm.. serious.

[Kise]

Part of the motivation for me wanting to lynch Kise over Hewitt is that he's constantly bringing this sort of stuff up that is old and dealt with.

It's not really dealt with because kiku still wanted to go after you. Shotty made a slip by showing how neglectful he was to the thread so he got jumped on, understandably. And again, there were great points used against you, but the curiosity of whether Shotty & kiku's point of views could be trusted got in the way.

actually go do the work yourself rather than calling DLA out to back up a case he made weeks ago.

This will tell me something about DLA and his mindset back then. In case you missed it, I read the thread. If I saw it myself, I wouldn't bother asking. There was a time where you quasidefended Neto but it was before the sequence that DLA listed.

[Kise]

If DLA was unjust for making that order in his list, I'll know based on what he returns. If he does show that you defended Neto close to the end of the day, you're scummier, duh.

Two mislynches & two inevitable nightkills get scum a victory. However, if hewitt is modkilled and flips town and the day continues, then it'll STILL be two mislynches before scum can win, thus we won't have to waste a lynch on possible townie. I'd rather that slot be modkilled so these next two lynches can be used elsewhere.

[Kise]

It's day 3. There are 8 players; 6 townies, 2 mafia. A day 3 1 mislynch + N3 kill + D4 mislynch + N4 kill = 2 townies, 2 mafia = mafia victory.

A modkill puts us at 7 players. If hewitt is one of the town, then a mislynch + nightkill

after

his MK puts the game into 5-player lylo.

[Kise]

Lol. I'll ask around. Nothing guaranteed.

Would the day continue if we all want you to slay hewitt?

[Kise]

I apologize, dram. I didn't consider how it would look if you agreed to bargaining with a player.

[Kise]

I agree to modkill hewitt

[Kise]

Hello.

Unvote

[Kise]

@farside - Out of courtesy. He probably would not have been lynched before getting a word out, but nonetheless I'll wait and hear Budja out. Hewitt is scum to me based on everything I went over with him and Neto's behavior -- Neto avoiding putting the hammer on hewitt, Neto requesting a deadline when "town" hewitt could have easily been plurality-lynched, and their minor references to each other where they don't view the other as scum.

On the other hand, I am extremely uncomfortable with this SC and OJ relationship, even if they're good friends. If both are town (not my thinking), then they need to ask themselves whether bias is influencing their opinion of the other. If one is town and the other scum, they are jeopardizing the game by using personal trust (white knight syndrome) and it's misunderstood by me. If both are scum, then they haven't been doing a good job of keeping their relationship away from plain sight.

Looking at Albert's efforts, I believe he was onto something with CSL/SC, and others shared thoughts that SC's slot was anti-town. SC has been picking at my slot easily when there was nothing to go on other than that

one

meaningful post from Kitty. Then when I become more active, he comes up with a new reason why he thinks I'm scum and I'm not buying it.

@OJ - My read of DLA changed when I saw hewitt and SC as the two living goons. My feelings that they are mafia is more confident than the bad feelings I got from DLA. As for why I'm speaking of voting SC instead of hewitt, it's because I recently read day 2 and I don't like how you and him practically co-op with each other. First SC asks me how I'm doing, then you ask me how my read is going right beneath him. Neither of you suspect the other and also neglect to mention your out-of-game relationship

until today

, which I imagine mafia doing both while reviewing their posts overnight in a preemptive way to speak on their image before the town brings it up. I can see a connection with you and SC more than I do SC and hewitt.

The more I read back on things, the more I twitch.

Kise's on!

PLEASE TAKE THE WONDERFUL HAMMER WE'RE GIVING AWAY!!!!

I didn't even deliver my thoughts on the game so far and this came across to me as pressure. As a matter of fact, you were pestering me at the end of day 2 to post content. If you were fine with me hammering Shotty day 2 with no delay, then why did you later hesitate to hammer and insist that everyone should wait for me to post?

[Kise]

Also, you weren't on the Neto wagon either, farside.

[Kise]

Guess so. I was also considering SC as an option but I'll go for this.

Vote: Budja

[Kise]

Why won't you join me and DLA in voting SC since you suspect him as well?

[Kise]

I think those bad feelings are because I just don't favor his playstyle even though I'm not sure if his alignment has an influence. I have a nagging belief that he's town despite his "eccentricity."

Scum hates townies trusting each other

And townies are uncomfortable with unwarranted public trust. If you say SC is town, then that's your belief. Stick to it.

A note: your scum suspects are based almost exclusively, as far as I can see, on relation to Neto.

And then some. As a reminder, I told you I'm not going to wait around for common scumslips or the sort because I give SC credit when he's scum. We were both town in a large theme game recently and something just feels different about him here. Could be because he was a PR last game. I got a bad feeling about you and SC, and it's easy to pardon it by saying you two played a few games with each other, etc. Why does that eliminate the possibility that you're both mafia here?

Let's not forget it's a Very Bad Thing to have a near to blank slot for 2 whole game days.

This reads like scum, as opposed to bored townies, how? And actually, I don't know about Yarmond but it was already reported that Kitty had connection issues.

[Kise]

I have, since the start of the day, been firm about Kise and Hewitt being my reads for scum. I voted Kise first. I made a case against Hewitt, but since then I've been put off by thinking that Kise seems to genuinely want Hewitt lynched and that's disconcerting to my game view.

Am I right to think that if I'm lynched and flip town, you go after hewitt the following day?

[Kise]

I don't speak out on town reads ever since an earlier Newbie game where I put too much faith on a player not being scum. He killed me and everyone took my belief as fact and he would have survived/won the game had it not been mod-abandoned. I'm turned off by town-list, even though most of us were newbs. Giving town-cred is something I never jump up to do, and I've said that it's a nagging feeling that DLA is town and that the scum lies within Budja, you and/or OJ.

The scum team? Farside kept saying I had the votecounts wrong and I thought she was trying to discredit the reasons I was suspecting hewitt. I thought of them as a scum-team but I guess she's realized hewitt was in fact at L-1 when Neto avoided hammering and voted for Elli. I've also said I think the team could be you [SC] and Ojajen despite an impressive case against Neto. I don't know the history of you two so of course I'm going to question it until I fully understand the relationship. Even so, as many friends as I've made and played with on-site, I myself never do any co-op playing. If anything, I feel like I can read a friend better if I know how they play as town and scum.

Comparing how you & OJ interact to how the rest of us interact with each other gives me the impression that you & OJ trust each other's opinions and viewpoints in this game. Hewitt and Neto barely interacted directly, yet there is a connection with them based on what farside and I have gone over.

It could still easily be you [SC] and Budja which was my earlier/first suspicion when I read day 1. Did you say today's phase is when you began suspecting hewitt/Budja?

[Kise]

Alright... so.. I'm gonna log off until after midnight to avoid being ninja'd more.. I'll respond to everything in one neat post.

[Kise]

Here's the large theme, OJ:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12352

Kise, if you were lynched and flip town I don't really want to line up lynches and telegraph my next options. It's a definite possibility.

Um, what would happen with your view of hewittscum?

But those bad feelings still linger?

Yeeeeees. Why do you ask?

You're uncomfortable with public trust, so... I should stick to it no matter what and not give a possibility for reevaluation?
This makes zero sense, it's in fact a contradiction.

There are 2 goons, 1 mason, and 5 vanilla townies left. The VT's don't know who's town. The mason has no one to talk to. The goons will be the only two working together in some way to get this day how they want it. So with 2 goons confirmed to each other and 6 town who don't know each other, do you now see why I have questioned the way you're riding beside SC often?

Also I don't see your reason to call it only towards me and serial, you don't seem to have a problem with my other loony townreads.

Your townreads shouldn't be loony if you really believe in them.

You're going rounds and rounds with the argument of the 2 of us, but noone has ever spoke about it eliminating anything, you're the one constantly bringing it up, and the reasons to pair us are weak.

It's weird that you don't suspect/vote me until SC does. Of course this is going to stick out to me because you're picking sides essentially.

Also, if we're both scum again, why on earth are you voting Budja?

Well harro:?: You and SC are not my only suspects.

You said it was suspicious we were both pestering you for content. I say it's undisputably pro-town to pester content from a near blank slot.

Or scum going for easy pickings because they know the blank spot won't bark back. Probably would have turned into a lurker-lynch down the road (not that I disagree with lynching lurkers before lylo).

none of your reads ringing true at all springs you to the scummiest person alive.

So because you have town reads on hewitt and SC, etc., mine is wrong?
--->
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... st_Fallacy

Noone feels like scum .

I think if you get a strong town-read-on-each-ther group it makes it almost impossibly difficult for scum. They need to manufacture mislynches out of a much smaller pool and are restricted in the NK choices they have because they need to cut down on the group.

Do you think it's unfair for me to believe scum could be among this trusted group?

OJ, during day 1, what was it that made you think your vote on Neto put him at L-1?

[Kise]

Ellibereth?

Kise's on!

PLEASE TAKE THE WONDERFUL HAMMER WE'RE GIVING AWAY!!!!

I didn't even deliver my thoughts on the game so far and this came across to me as pressure. As a matter of fact, you were pestering me at the end of day 2 to post content. If you were fine with me hammering Shotty day 2 with no delay, then why did you later hesitate to hammer and insist that everyone should wait for me to post?

[Kise]

Everyone but Scigatt has placed a vote on me today

I was concerned about that post of yours Ellibereth because kiku caught a load of crap for hammering Neto without additional content in her post.

[Kise]

I'll pull it up in a second. There was this fiasco D1 when Serial wouldn't vote for Neto because he thought he was at L-1. You were flying across the world and I-I-I-I, I can't find my baby. DLA heckled SC about not voting and he was waiting for you to post before "hammering." Dramo does a votecount later on and it's revealed Neto was only at L-2.

Gimme a sec.

[Kise]

Hmm, nevermind. DLA was the one who said he put Neto at L-2, then saber was supposedly L-1, and SC waited for you to post again before he went ahead and voted. dramonic came in 2 pages later to say it wasn't a hammer.

[Kise]

Because this turn of phrase+lingering bad feel doesn't feel genuine:

His opinions come across as genuine (from the heart) and not from the mindset of scum wanting to meet their objective hastily.

Did you miss the part where I said I don't favor his playstyle?

Oh, that's clear (although not what I was replying to), but I'll tell you what is reads as.
I have had a townread on Serial since catchup

That hasn't change in the slightest, or are you choosing not to change it?

he expressed one on me after my Neto case. We have both also separately expressed townreads to other people. Serial is convinced Scigatt is town, for example. I have a bucketload of inflation suffering townreads.

Don't let Serial tell you who's town. You be the judge.

Now, there seems to be something quite obviously friendly between me and him, and there's very obviously some meta right since my first post where I apologize for getting in a game with him again. This type of obvious friendliness in thread has absolutely no added benefit to scumbuddies.

You both attacked kiku, you both rallied for Shotty's death, you've defended SC at times, and I don't think I've seen you two disagree on matters up until today's phase [QT talking].

That was self-ironical language, they aren't loony to me.

So who are they looney to, then? I never commented on your townreads -- to each his own.

It's weird that you don't suspect/vote me until SC does. Of course this is going to stick out to me because you're picking sides essentially.

I'm pretty sure that is factually false but I'm too tired to check.

Nah, SC voted for me and you waited about a week IRL before voting me. I've pretty much been your only scumread today IIRC.

And second it did take you the whole game day, and certifiably also dead town among others asked you for content, so it's hard to see how the 2 of us also pestering you makes us look like scumbuddies to you.

You and SC pioneered it though. Everyone else stayed busy with scumhunting whereas SC kept reminding everyone I wasn't present.

none of your reads ringing true at all springs you to the scummiest person alive.

So because you have town reads on hewitt and SC, etc., mine is wrong?

No. The argumentation hasn't rang townish to me. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean they're scummy.

Wait what!? You didn't say my reads weren't townish initially. You said they weren't true. Now I have to question how you know about truth when, in fact, you're saying 7 out of 8 players here are likely town.(?) If you're saying I'm not true/townish (to you, meaning this is a relative fallacy), then elaborate on an example of what it is I'm doing that's not true/townish so I can understand your view.

[Kise]

Because she's following you. I don't see you following her, on the contrary. (I'm still stuck on when Albert called you the mastermind of any team)

[Kise]

'Follow' may or may not be the right word to use, but that's how I feel.

[Kise]

That was self-ironical language, they aren't loony to me.

So who are they looney to, then?

Kise, could you tell more exactly in which way SC feels different to you compared to the large theme you mentioned?

Nothing specific I can put my finger on. Seems like his demeanor is different is all.

I've defended a lot of people at times (DLA, Budja, reads that I'm now also questioning more).

Bah.. To me it looks like Serial more than the rest, and probably first. Even outright saying SC wasn't acting scummy at a time when others/voters disagreed. I also had to suspect you for any time you switched from saying someone is probtown to declaring them town then reverting to prob again.

farside, kiku, Elli, Scigatt, DLA also rallied for Shotty's death (I'd say I was a minor player in that, also, which is not a townish thing but the access was stopping me.)
DLA and Shotty also attacked kiku. I had kiku as a scummy read since my very first content, that's not following.

It seems like you suspect players a lot based on their inactivity. You had Shotty & kiku as scum reads since day 1 and stuck to your guns for most of day2 on those 2 being scum and everyone else as townish.

The significance of QT talking baffles me since we would have both been in the game already on N1, and we didn't agree on everything D1.

Um, you both

were

here in the game by the time N1 came.. And when I mentioned QT earlier, I was hinting at a discussion you two may have had as scum N2 to tone down the buddying.

Nah, if you talk about suspicion of you, check my posts. I had you as no.2 already before anyone else had posted on D3.

For inactivity alone, or was there something I said at the end of D2, or other reason? I think answering farside's question ties in with this.

Serial followed me on the Neto momentum, for example, and we don't agree on everything.

Serial threw out a minor case against Neto before your vote D1, actually. He admits that he was happy with not being lynched D1 (survival) so, no definite way to tell if he followed you or not and I'm thinking about dropping this avenue since it's not concrete enough to prove either side of the argument. In the words of kiku, "Self preservation is much more of a scumtell than a towntell."

I gtg to work, but should be able to answer soon. In the meantime, why would you vote someone and often list them in your top suspects if you didn't undersatnd why they were scummy?

Who was this directed at?

Then Kise comes in at the START of D2 to say he's around and yet says NOTHING throughout the entirety of the day. We have kiku, shotty, ojanen and me all posting wall posts at each other, so there was no need for kise to come in and say something.

I had to ask who I was replacing because dram wasn't logging on often and I wasn't informed who it was I was replacing. I wanted to know from you all who I was replacing because if my predecessors said much of anything, I'd know they share my alignment and I'd believe their viewpoint rather than try and judge them.

If Kise is town, I'm sure he would have got involved in those discussions in some way - look how active he is today?

Didn't want to get ahead of myself. Catch-up came first, then talk about current affairs. I doubt you of all people ITT think blindly jumping the gun is a wise move for any alignment.

Kise's activity is worth a paragraph on its own - it has ramped up remarkedly since he started getting some attention. He showed no interest in finding scum D2, but plenty of interest in saving his butt D3.

Misrep. I started posting my thoughts because I realized Shotty had been hammered -- wanted to get my words in before thread locked. If you think what I had to say about DLA, hewitt and yourself early on wasn't an interest in finding scum, then you're misrepping as I said.

Finally, his attacks have all been mediocre. He attacked me both because I've been his biggest accusor throughout the game and because I've been attacked constnatly due to CSL-baggage. When he gave his arguments, there was nothing more concrete than continuing to mention CSL and invoking Albert.

I could care less if you targeted me/Kitty or not. Had no influence on my reading. I saw the same things Albert [and DLA] did about you D1. Giving me flak for referencing Albert's case is like saying Albert's case was useless.

His play has gotten better, but it doesn't excuse the fact that he actually brought up my suggesting a policy lynch of Hewitt for quoting all of Albert's posts as a point against me!

I did? Probably thought you were talking about me.

I'm not buying 1537 as a response to Elli. It won't be the first slip SC has made (ie Albert tricking him into saying he's scum with Neto). Farside if you're willing to vote SC today, I'll make the switch as well. I know OJ won't do it and Scigatt's slot probably won't be around. Maybe SC can take a page from CSL and self-vote though.

[Kise]

It's not a policy lynch if he's genuinely scummy. That sort of posting pattern isn't lurking, it's actively not posting. He's probably scum.

I thought you were talking about me here, not hewitt.[?]

[Kise]

For all I know, the Budja vote could be to make him look better if he's your partner. It's a two way street. Why should there be anything new to say when I've commented on 50-some pages of material to go off of

Way I see it Farside is that SC is more lynchable than Budja depending on how DLA and Elli feel. Serial's slip a page ago is hard to ignore. If Budja is your pick for scum, and he's either partnered with SC or me, then we can find out now whether it's SC or whether you should keep your eyes on Budja and me.

I can wait for DLA and Elli.

[Kise]

Yes because Farside won't make the switch I don't think. Yes I'm trying to coordinate a wagon on one of my suspects. Problem?

I just iso'd Scigatt to find out he was tunneling on you a bit, SC. FTR, this was before day 3 when OJ suspected saber/Sci's slot. I need to understand why he was #1 on your list [OJ].

An overview of my suspicions is that I see a link with Neto & hewitt. I see a link with you and OJ as well on top of every other scummy thing your slot is responsible for. You and Budja's votes on each other don't deter me because you even said you started suspecting him today's phase so I look at that as being out of the blue. Weak suspicions tend to be bussing. I'd rather today's lynch be on someone I'm more sure of being mafia than guessing between whether Budja or OJ is your partner.

You still haven't answered my question of what would happen to your view of hewitt being scum if I flipped town as today's lynch.

[Kise]

<--- Shameless activity post. I'll be able to sit by a comp longer this Friday.

[Kise]

I shouldn't need to explain this vote.

Unvote; Vote: SC

[Kise]

I didn't even welcome him to the game.

I'm down for a quicklynch, but Budja

did

vote for SC, even if not a strong reason. I think that credits him more than OJ.

Hewitt + CS + Neto pair?

Scary..

I am not gonna switch my vote tonight.
If I had to do it right now between Budja and Serial it would be Budja, based on pairing possibilities inside Kise/DLA/Serial/Budja(/Scigatt).

Who is Budja paired to, in your opinion?

Blah.

vote: Budja

(don't ask.)

Um...

[Kise]

Quick question to Ojanen & Budja: Even at the risk of exposing them, have you see a mason claim/softclaim at all? If so, when and where?

[Kise]

I would rather have heard an answer before you both read up on the thread. I just noticed that Dedicated was killed because SC said he thought that slot was the mason.

Easy way or the hard way.

Vote: Budja

FTR I saw the mason claim but I guess it doesn't matter.

[Kise]

Wasn't expecting a farside kill.

Who were you expecting?

Clear to me it's btw Oj and Dla now, leaning Oj.

Lol there's only 1 mafia left, not 2.

The snow is also starting to come up over here and they say it'll be 48 inches. I have a feeling my net will be taken out as a result. Not sure when deadline is.

I don't want to rush a no lynch to be honest because we should all at least give input

right now

because if the mason did get nightkilled, then that's no input. I've pretty much made up in my mind a long time ago who I saw as scum.

[Kise]

Letting mafia have another nightkill would slim down the pool, but I'm gonna stay firm in my belief of who I think SC is teamed with.

Vote: Ojanen

. I'm not seeing the other two as scum.

[Kise]

Lmao @ 4 votes for no lynch. WTF mod?

But yeah I guess it makes a little sense. I just wish everyone gave input before night because whoever dies should at least have some words to be remembered.

Unvote; Vote: No Lynch

.

[Kise]

Not after 68 pages. I can only imagine being shouted at by the others after endgame.

Um...

I'm gonna do a "good, bad, ugly" review of everyone. Like, tomorrow.

[Kise]

@Mod - Are you, um, at liberty to inform us whether the happily ever after ending is your idea or

someone else

's?

(rules say I can't use red but you get the idea)

[Kise]

Fuck it.

I didn't like OJ trying to save SC from a lynch the other day, I don't like DLA's carelessness, and I didn't like Elli trying to pressure me into hammering on day 2 before my catch-up post.

Next person please post what you think is most scummy about everyone here.

[Kise]

I got an idea...

[Kise]

Not mason BTW.

[Kise]

Yup.

Budja, you're just like me.. 1 town-looking player (

who was a mason

, obv-town), and the rest scum xP

Vote: No lynch

[Kise]

Are you kidding me? DLA, why did you say you were a mason (in that quote), or how did you mean to say that when you were speaking to Budja?

Real talk, those bad feelings I had disappeared because I thought you were subtly implying you were kiku and ABR's partner. And yes, that quote is what farside and I saw.

OJ, were you intentionally searching for the mason?

[Kise]

Now I've got to rethink my shiz here. Alright, DLA.

It is very hard for me to see scum motivation for DLA to advocate a draw though.

I'm not in for a draw. Simply giving scum an extra night.

Earlier you said this --->

I'm leaning towards a draw as a fair outcome for this..

'splain it plz.

Elli being mason is final? Nobody else wants to pull a Spartacus?

[Kise]

Mr. Freeze: "DLA....chiiiill."

I guess it's context. Not bothering me at the moment since I just remembered there's no way you can be scum. I'll post something later today. This is more anti-proddish.

[Kise]

@Elli - DLA HAS to be town based on lynching SC the other day, combined with his all-over-the-place-ness. I can't imagine bussing being a hand in hand trait with a player like him.

@OJ - To see if who I think is mafia was waiting to figure out the last mason before they made a nightkill. DLA wasn't being productive as it was. One day he hates someone, the next day he loves them. One minute he's not sure who scum is and votes no lynch, the next minute he's made a town list and scum list. One minute he wants a draw, the next minute he doesn't. Kinda wish he rode with me calling him the mason so we could in fact see whether he'd be killed or not. The plus side of that would be that he's not the mason and we'd have Elli to confirm himself so things could be easier.

Unvote

Stay tuned. I'm digging some links up.

[Kise]

Hmm. Actually share your theories first, then we'll do some talking (o rly?), then I'll vote.

[Kise]

@Elli - DLA HAS to be town based on lynching SC the other day, combined with his all-over-the-place-ness. I can't imagine bussing being a hand in hand trait with a player like him.

Not that I'm trying to offend you or anything DLA, but I think I can read you perfectly. If SC was your partner, I see you more as the type of person who would have kept him alive. That, on top of how you felt about Neto earlier in the game.

[Kise]

Because I'm waiting to hear your theory and don't want to give you any help/influence so that we can see you concoct an original idea, and applaud you if it's nice. It may have been pretty obvious who I will vote for, but still. Show me what you got, including why you believe I'm scum and why you believe OJ is town. My

case

will be simple.

[Kise]

I just remembered another thought I had when voting no lynch. Notice how Elli has been viewing you as scum OJ? Remember when I voted for you and then DLA threw a FOS onto me? And today, see how he thinks you're up there on his townlist? That on top of him possibly being a confirmed mason heading into tonight would be interesting to see come tomorrow. If you're scum and you killed the

only person who thinks you're town at the moment, you're screwed. It would be suicidal to kill your only supporter

just because he's confirmed town, so if he got NKed (and flipped mason), I would have had suspicious thoughts about Elli because

I don't see [you as] scum leaving themselves with 2 others who'd vote for them.

Regardless of who's scum, the only logical choice for nightkill would be DLA or no-kill again. If no-kill, my suspicion would stay on you OJ. But if DLA -- your only supporter -- was killed, it would be stupid of you as scum to do that and actually could have made you look better. I myself can't think of a reason why anyone else would be nightkilled, even though I wonder about farside's death. But of course I was under the belief that Elli wasn't the mason. After he confirmed it, I was a little confused, and pissed because of how many free passes I was giving DLA based off thinking he was mason. It's neither here nor there but I wish Elli kind of rode with it before confirming himself. On the flipside, DLA dying and flipping vanilla would still make you look town OJ and me more so scummy, I would say.

You'd actually wanted DLA to fakeclaim, when you seem(ed) to think he's town anyway, with a mason faced with a choice whether to counter?

Ninja what? I never expected DLA was faking or anything. Elli asked DLA if he was the mason, so I took that as Elli in other words saying he wasn't mason himself. With you and me claiming not to be mason, I felt right in believing I saw a genuine mason softclaim from DLA earlier.

To my credit... with me believing that DLA was mason ever since he made that post a long time ago, why would I

A)

kill farside instead of him when she was also someone who thinks you're scum, and

B)

why wouldn't I kill him last night instead of submit a no kill? It'd make more sense for me as scum to take out someone I thought would claim mason down the line. That looks to be why DedicatedScribe got killed -- SCum said they felt he was mason.

You've bought yourself a lot of time already and I guess deadline is around the corner.

[Kise]

Meh. I was going to link to the posts where I go over Ojanen but just iso me, or hopefully you have been paying attention to my posts.

Vote: OJanen Simpson

Day 1, OJ posted her scumreads and voted Neto without even mentioning why she felt he was scummy in that same post.

SC is cool with it

and he tells people not to lynch Neto until OJ can write another post about her scummers.

OK.

But KittyMo posted her scumreads with Neto at the top (same as OJ), tells everyone not to hammer until she can post again,

yet SC feels the need to ride my ass all game about it

?

Wat?

Kitty and OJ practically did the same thing. You have a meatier post, OJ. Sure. But that's due to explaining who you felt was town,

not

those on your scumlist. You didn't go over why your suspects were scummy, much like KittyMo. SC bitched about Kitty going for an easy target or whatever by listing Neto at the top. He didn't even give her a chance.

[Kise]

Hmm. I thought the mod said deadline was in 24 hours lol. Not going to unvote though.

[Kise]

DLA.

Show me what you got, including why you believe I'm scum and why you believe OJ is town.

[Kise]

Hmm.

I'd hammer but Ojanen asked us not to and I like Ojanen.

You're correct, OJ. This came a while after you did your scumlist and also after you went over posts by Neto you said were bad. Pardon me for trying to go off memory alone, tee hee hee. Still doesn't change the fact Serial didn't give Kitty a chance to post again before fussing about her list (but that's nothing that makes you any more scummy). He pretty much jumped in not long after she made her scumlist.... okay, hold on, lemme iso it to make sure my dates are matching....

Yup, the very next post was SC being a player hater.

And to give OJ the benefit of the doubt... DLA, could you also explain why you recently said you weren't in favor of a draw, but earlier this same day you said a draw was the only fair outcome?

[Kise]

Don't have time at the moment, but maybe later tonight I can get a chance to look at this. DLA's quiet unvote is creepy, and suspect, but I've been saying for a while how I view him as a spontaneous player (not in a good way). It'll be hard for me to put aside what I think is his general playstyle, but, really, what kind of plan could SC have given him if he told DLA to bus him? Like did they think bussing Neto and SC would earn DLA towncred to survive?

[Kise]

No I'm not going to hammer but I still need time to look at things. My net screwed up last night and I'm at the library but by tonight I should be able to look over things and reevaluate if need be.

[Kise]

This is ovah: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 67#2125567
I see scum giving up!!!!

Lol.

@Elli - I guess with DLA we need to determine if SC did consent to being bussed and what hope the scum team would need for using DLA to ensure their victory. With OJ, it's in plain sight that her and SC were far from enemies, plus her townread on him and Budja vote on the day we lynched SC seem suspect.

There were ALOT of things I overlooked about DLA due to believing he hinted at being the mason. I'm kicking myself in the head and there's no reason I should be angry at him. I'll have to also iso read him from when I thought he hinted at being mason and up to now so I can assess the times when he said something I cringed at.

[Kise]

Alright.

Unvote

No hammer yet plz Elli. Also, that was very risky man. You shouldn't put anyone in hammering range in lylo to confirm another player.

[Kise]

Look at the above Neto read in this game. His calling of Neto town for the style of his posts here makes not the slightest sense in light of this meta, his call in the earlier newbie game that proved correct there.

These are all stances from Serial on DLA's scumminess or related things I found relevant, and haven't left out anything negative, DLA is fairly in the backround in Serial's commentary of the game.

DLA and saber are both too random to call. They look like lynchbait, especially with the suspicion they get.

Yeah, I

could

see SCum dropping his partner (let's say DLA) in the same sentence with a townie (saber).

I will vote DLA if the vote count shows that it would not put him in the danger zone.

Wow, I probably was too fixated on SC and hewitt to consider how this implicates DLA.

So, what do you guys think. I think that SC is obv-scum..

I'm deciding to recide with SC, he seems to have a genuine reason, so I'm left with two. Shotty and Kiku.

Vote: Kikuchiyo

How could you easily forget about the connection

you saw

that said if Neto flips scum, CSL (SC) is his partner? Kiku's hammer was a hammer on scum in the end..

This is ovah: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 67#2125567
I see scum giving up!!!!

I saw that too
This is not the only time I've noticed

he's lurking over Little Italy

without posting since the unvote btw.

Sorry, kinda forgot about this game =P Had to start up open 206.

The math ain't adding up here. Somebody's lying. DLA, you still commented on

what exactly made you think I was scum, then what makes you begin to lean towards voting OJ BEFORE I didn't hammer you.

I'm surprised at myself for reconsidering my stance but DLA isn't looking too good lately. I can only hope that I'm not subconsciously trying to get back at DLA for inadvertently making me think he was mason. Chances are that if there's no lynch today, Elli is gone. Do you all think we need the next day phase to keep going or should there be a lynch before deadline?

I really want to see some answers from you DLA because there's a lot that you've skipped.

[Kise]

What do you want to do Elli? I just thought that it could be possible I'll get killed too, so I won't say anything that will have an influence if there's going to be another day phase after this. If you think we need tomorrow, then say much to influence neither.

[Kise]

Sometimes, I don't even think DLA is reading our posts.

[Kise]

@Elli - I'm about to flip a coin here, it's tough at this point. OJ is showing some very good points against DLA despite how I viewed her connection to SC. I'll be back, like, right at deadline. I'll either hammer whoever you pick or let no lynch happen, which could actually be a good thing.

[Kise]

Yeah, OJ wasn't going down without a fight. I'm not brushing it off to the side neither because she obviously took some time on it. We got about 5 hours for you to make another post. Is it honestly a coin flip?

[Kise]

DLA!!!

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 85#2127385

Anything with your name beside it more than likely has a question to it. Please answer within the next 4 hours if you could.

[Kise]

Shiiiit, we got an hour or less.

Last phase, it would have been OJ. However, the way DLA is acting today is a little panicky. Plus not looking over at the questions... hell, not looking over the posts we're making.

I'm pretty much like you where logic says to vote DLA, but gut tells me OJ. Just thinking about the whole no lynch thing. Like, it was OJ's idea and DLA was quick to agree. At first when there was no kill, I was thinking OJ was buying more time.

Honestly/hopefully none of the dead players blame us if we lynch the wrong person. It's a tough call.... which is why I'm letting you be the one to pick.

[Kise]

you have a bit more time

Alright, I'd say we have about 8 hours unless dram is just taking a short nap. DLA is killing me.

[Kise]

Wow, we all posted 13 minutes after the hour lol. It's crunch time.

[Kise]

So that means OJ will be lynched since she had 2 votes before I unvoted, or at least that's what I'd guess by that reminder.

[Kise]

Oh, DLA...

Yeah I remember Neto saying something about the deadline lynch. That was something I caught when hewitt was near a lynch.

[Kise]

Yeah, search is down. Best I could do is check DLA's wiki or google his name. Hold on.

[Kise]

Lol I think your vote is now on DLA.
Well from what I could find, DLA is townie a lot, but the one scum game I saw from him, he was moreso the type of person to defend his partner by attacking others (chainsawing, right?)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12173

I used the search function to see how he mentioned fakegin/DNAM/RayFrost and it's nonexistent. So, I guess when DLA distances from his scumbuddy, he just ignores them completely and chainsaws. But, that was back in August.

[Kise]

Frustrated about what? And dram is offline now.

[Kise]

Lol, that better not be AtE ^.

@Elli - I think we're going to have to let the chips fall as they may. And... just close our eyes, cross our fingers.

[Kise]

Fah...

Vote: OJ

[Kise]

Calm down, you're beginning to make me worry. We should see the flip first. I'm going to head offline though.. take my mind off it. Last time I hammered someone in lylo, I mislynched, but I'm pretty confident OJ isn't a bad lynch. As she said tho, DLA

did

appear to only be pretending he was confused and ignoring our questions.

[Kise]

Ok, ignore my last post LOL. Didn't see the modscene...
The reason I let this lynch bleed for so long is because I wanted more from everybody.

Elli, never EVER put someone at L-1 in lylo just to prove another player won't take that opportunity. And never stay fixed in a read of someone unless you have 100% accurate

information

about that player's alignment.

OJ, I'm sorry, but you HAD to be the (mis)lynch. That was the plan, and I wanted to honor SC's lynch because we didn't agree to bus him to set up DLA's mislynch; I bussed SC to set you up for the mislynch. It was pretty much an honor thing, and played a part in my decision not to hammer DLA. You made me feel pretty bad for wanting to string you up since you put your heart into making that case against DLA. Good stuff, but you gotta find a cure or some pills to take care of that white knight syndrome.

DLA, you gotta read posts, man. I notice you get lynched

in lylo

in those games I checked out. Commit to your games more. You were on the right track with the Neto-SC connection, but it did seem like you drop a lot of your suspicions to roll with the trends. Hell, I'm not sure what it is I said that made you vote me today, but you must have been onto something.

Overall, I dragged the phase and kept asking questions to see why you all were so dead set in believing the other to be scum for such-and-such reasons. I'm too tired to go back, but I asked those questions to show you now how both town and scum can say any and everything without being labeled properly. I did something I doubt any other scummer has done by not putting DLA away. I've learned from this last phase too because, while OJ was moreso setup by us scum, DLA has did the most dastardly things to a point where I can't blame OJ for believing her findings to solidly implicate him as mafia. For me, it wasn't hard to see a playstyle like his as town. If he was scum, I could easily imagine him not bussing what could be perceived as heavily ITT.

Serial was as good of a partner I've ever had. I'm usually keeping my mafia QTs on lockdown, but he came up with some beautiful tactics and setups. I caught the charlie brown reference too lol, just didn't act on it fast enough. You can link to the QT if you want. The town was likely to win if SC and I didn't bus one another D3. There would have been too many "what if" scenarios if we lynched the other later on; like delaying our own deaths. Boy oh boy am I glad I didn't kill DLA.

[Kise]

FU KISE!!
It took forever for you to hammer.
Poor OJ.

Heheheh. She put a whoooole lot of time and effort into making that case against DLA. I would feel like too much of a prick for hammering her, so I was hopeful for a deadline-lynch.

The last 2 phases had been very tough and heart-wrenching for me..... No really, I do have a heart!

[Kise]

Marry me.

[Kise]

I wonder why Kise killed me that night since I had him listed as town.

I felt it would be better for me to work with OJ, DLA & Elli than you. Kind of suspected you would second guess lynching OJ after Budja flipped town. I didn't expect DLA to have this stubborn townread on OJ, but Elli was just the same with me and I wasn't killing him. I figured DLA was also on my side but he changed his mind a bit.

He then bursts into laughter as he drags the corpse to the town square and begins painting grotesque patterns on the plaza with the blood of the dead.

This sounds nothing like me. If it were, I'd have taken a bath in Elli's blood and used his bones to scrub my backside.

That last phase was very healthy for the sake of theory. Now DLA has an excuse to say he does scummy things as town thanks to OJ's case. I can only imagine she'll shit bricks when she found out who the scum was...

[Kise]

Also, farside, if anyone questioned why you were killed, I could easily say because the goon didn't know who the mason was. I kept DLA alive to build (more) town credit by saying how I believed him to be mason, and how I would have shot him or anyone I thought was mason if I were scum. SC and me kept guessing wrong. First we had strong implications that we presumed led to saberwolf's slot being mason, then when DLA made that post, I went back and checked the interactions he had with the other masons. I think Albert referred to him as general once, and there were more than a few instances where I could see DLA following Albert's lead.

I wasn't killing Elli anyway. He liked me too much.