Open 191 - Paris Mafia II (Game Over!)

[Rhinox]

Original Roll String: 1d12

1 12-Sided Dice: (11) = 11

[Rhinox]

vote: 6) Cat

[Rhinox]

I'm so very sorry VP. I was sure I had already confirmed to you

Rhinox, could you please tell me what the use of your vote is?

Just a random vote like everyone else will (probably) do... why didn't you (or kise) vote?

[Rhinox]

You didn't answer my question exactly, I'm afraid. I asked what the use was.

And I can't talk for Kise, but I rather wait for my vote to have some use. Before it can have any use, I must know things, which is why I ask questions.

Obviously, my vote is to lynch someone.

Even if I knew absolutely nothing, I would still want to lynch someone, even if the odds are no better than random. Being truely random with a dice roll avoids me being subconsciously drawn to a name, avatar, quote, join date, whatever. If/when there is a better reason than random to vote someone later on, I will change my vote. Until then, random is the best reason out there and will have to do.

Why are you asking xoelf to unvote? it seems like you're skiddish of having votes on you...

[Rhinox]

vote: rhinox

I hate rhino's...

Thats a lie... lynch all liars?

[Rhinox]

Being truely random with a dice roll avoids me being subconsciously drawn to a name, avatar, quote, join date, whatever.

It also allows you to vote without having to come up with a reason for voting.

I was the second poster in the RVS... there were no reasons to vote then.

[Rhinox]

I also hate my not having of an avatar. If anybody has any (appropriate) suggestions, I'd been willing to put them up.

I think flinter is a bit overreacty but it's not really scummy, plus flinter is a sweet name.

obvscum... appeasement.

um... who did Kise just hug?

also, why is this game so slow?

Does everyone know we've started? how many haven't posted yet? (I'm too lazy to check )

[Rhinox]

I hugged Cat when I realized who she was. I suggest she.. gets a cat for an avy.. duh!

BTW guys I'm voteless townie so I won't be voting at all this game.

lol

Its obvious he just claimed scum. Question is, mime, or goon trying to make us think he's a mime? (hint: unvote him and the vig can take him out tonight.)

[Rhinox]

I also want to add... if Kise ends up being a goon, I'd bet anything at least 1 if not more of Xscorpion, kyle99, and Mylynes are mimes - a mime would know right now which faction kise is. Especially given this new information:

Mod - If the goons die first and the mimes survive, will town win right away?

No.

If I understand this correctly, if the mimes eliminate the goons and the vig (or at least identify the vig to RB), they can auto-win via being unable to be nked, since the rules state that no-lynch is not an option while the mimes survive. I.E. the town would have to lynch either town or the mimes. Lynching mimes makes us lose, lynching town delays losing until the mimes hold voting majority. So mimes have an incentive to eliminate goons.

That also means I disagree with flinters vote on Xscorpion. I don't see any goon incentive to eliminate a mime if kise is a mime. also not sure if kise is a goon, that his scumbuddy would be so quick to bus knowing they are only a 2-player team.

So, actually, I'm going to have to say that kise's claim is very beneficial to us... we vig him overnight either geting rid of 2 mimes or 1 goon, and thanks to the wagoning, I would have to say its not very smart to lynch any of the 3 who wagoned - odds are they're either mimes or town, regardless of kise's allignment. That means today's lynch choices are narrowed down to {flinter, reck, xofelf, cat, rhinox, gerty, dry-fit, and looker}

Kise, since you've already claimed scum and you almost certainly will die tonight unless the vig gets blocked, mind making it easy on us and telling us who your partner is?

[Rhinox]

EBWOP: fixing one small section

That also means I disagree with flinters vote on Xscorpion. I don't see any goon incentive to

eliminate

lynch

a mime if kise is a mime. also not sure if kise is a goon, that his scumbuddy would be so quick to bus knowing they are only a 2-player team.

[Rhinox]

Why the hell is Kise's claim indicative of him being a mime, exactly?

He claimed a role thats not in the game. Thats a jesterish thing to do, which is essentially what mimes are. Thats not how I'd play it if I were a mime, knowing there is a vig, so the other explaination is hes a goon pretending to be a mime. Again, not smart play given theres a vig. He's scum either way, and since its not optimal play for either goon or mime to do, he is basically equally likely to be either and the best play is to vig him.

[Rhinox]

That's WIFOM.


Also, knowing Kise, that's pretty standard play for him.

Thats not WIFOM at all, unless you're trying to argue that kise might not be scum at all. In which case, if kise is possibly town fake claiming something not in the game, my reaction is still to vig the hell out of him.

It IS wifom to try to divine which scum faction kise belongs to based on what you know of him. Vigging him completely removes the element of wifom.

So... what exactly are you arguing here? that kise is possibly not scum, or that kise is not a mime and definately a goon?

[Rhinox]

Kise is possibly not scum, especially since his joking "lol idc" attitude tends to show up a lot when I play with him. No homo.

Sure, vig him, I don't care. I definitely don't like the bandwagon on him, though.

OK, that makes sense. I don't like the bandwagon on him either and we agree to vig him. The only thing that changes from my end is that if kise is town, that reopens the possibility that Xscorpion, kyle99, and/or Mylynes could be goons.

[Rhinox]

Went back and read the role PM's.... Taken at face value, mimes can't win exclusively. If they both get lynched, they are removed as threats to the town. So, even if the mimes get lynched and fulfil their win condition, we can still fulfil the town win condition by lynching or vigging the goons. At least, if I'm understanding the win conditions correctly.

Mimes have every incentive to lynch goons. By removing goons, they eliminate 1 threat of being nked and losing. If they manage to kill/block both goons and the vig, nothing can stop them from achieving their win condition. So theres more to it than just playing like jesters and trying to get lynched. I guess it comes down to whether we want to win as town exclusively or if we don't mind sharing the win with the mimes as to whether or not we lynch them. It seems best to just ignore the mimes and try to lynch and vig the goons because if both goons are gone we win it seems, we just have to share the win with the mimes. A win is a win as far as I'm concerned.

[Rhinox]

- I don't want second place.
- I don't think they'll play along as long as our Vig is living.
- Let's stick to the simple stuff first, we don't want to confuse anyone. Neither do we want to extend a psychological (WIFOM) edge to other factions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's lynch some scum.

What do you consider 2nd place? Sharing a win in general, or specifically being 2nd to achieve a win condition? Because if the goons die first, town and mimes will both technically achieve win conditions at exactly the same time. In other words, we lynch a goon today and vig a goon tonight, we win because nothing can prevent us from acheiving our win condition. IMO, it would be the mimes who would be considered second place if they achieve their win condition after both goons have been killed, because they don't acheive their win condition until the vig is taken care of as well.

[Rhinox]

Weren't you just trying to vig me because I'm mime? So, subconsciously, if you think I'm mime and you also don't mind sharing a win, then why not think the mime's will lose after I'm vigged?

Me thinks Rhinox is throwing in the towel too early if town, or subconsciously making a mime-slip. Directing the vig away from you isn't cute neither, kupo.

Don't misrepresent me. when I first suggested vigging you because I thought there was a possibility you could be a mime, I was under the impression that if the mimes won, everyone else lost. After I reread all the role PM's and realized that multiple wincons could be met, I would have reversed views and called for your lynch instead (I thought you were more likely goon than mime anyways, but vigging was safer given what I thought would happen if the mimes won), except that reck pointed out you were possibly town and I realized that made more sense than you being goon or mime.

I don't see how considering an optimal strategy for the town to get into a position where we can not be prevented from acheiving our win condition i.e. focusing on eliminating the goons day and night is "throwing in the towel". It matters little to me whether the mimes too acheive their win condition. It might be more fun to win AND prevent the mimes from winning, but it is not optimal play imo. Also, I don't see how I was directing the vig away from me. I was directing it towards scum, or so I thought. Also, interesting how you never considered the possibility that I am the vig

[Rhinox]

Rhinox is likely scum.

ummm... why?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox is likely scum.

ummm... why?

Doesn't matter why - refute it.

ok...

Rhinox is likely

not

scum.

fixed.
bout the best I can do until there is a reason...

[Rhinox]

I think kise is mime, and I think people need to post more, specifically Sarag. I'll

vote: Sarag

till he comes and explains himself.

leaning*

Ah crap, I hate alts.

unvote

.

so tell me kyle, why was sarag ok to vote until you realized it was gerty? did you realize you accidentally voted your scum partner?

Mod - if the mimes achieve their win condition, does the game end?

Yes, all win conditions are exclusive victories.

oh... back to vig the mimes afterall.

[Rhinox]

Flinter, why are you defending kyle and subverting my scumhunting methods?

I buy this answer

[url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5Xscorpion, where was this conversation between you and flinter?[/url]

I can get behind an Xscorpion lynch. He has been looking pretty scummy.

unvote, vote Xscorpion

[Rhinox]

EBWOP: postfail

Flinter, why are you defending kyle and subverting my scumhunting methods?

I buy this answer

Xscorpion, where was this conversation between you and flinter?

I can get behind an Xscorpion lynch. He has been looking pretty scummy.

unvote, vote Xscorpion

[Rhinox]

sheesh... I don't think I've ever seen a game jump 5 pages in 1 day.

I'm'a get caught up an' post some thoughts in a little bit.

[Rhinox]

Seriously, this is the only thing I get out this game, so you guys should tell some jokes or somethin...just sayin

Q. How do you turn your washing machine into a snow-blower?

A. Give her a shovel.

Still catchin' up, but I've been looking for an excuse to share this joke on mafiascum.

[Rhinox]

So, you don't believe there is any chance whatsoever that I'm just a bad, lazy townie who got frustrated with the last 191 and doesn't feel as confident anymore about games with mimes?
Well on the bright side, at least if I get lynched today you don't hit a mime...

No, and I really don't like AtE.

But I found the question to be a waste of time. Kyle had given the reason for his vote, you even included it. It was the postcount that made him pick Sarag (1 post). But Gerty did post more, so the reason was accidentaly wrong, and an unvote was the logical conclusion.

Now, if you find it scummy to vote a lurker and then unvote doing nothing (no scumhunting), then that is fine. If you find this ok, good too. But you asked for something that was pretty obvious, and so the answer could only be this. You didn't need the answer to make a decision about Kyle.

This makes that your question did fill the thread, but added little. A waste of a little bit of time. I had to say that.

meh... I didn't realize kyle voted 'sarag' for lurking... when I looked at this post, I thought kyle was waiting for sarag to explain something. In otherwords, I skimmed over the first sentence. My bad.

More importantly, why did you let kyle off the hook so easily? Why didn't you insist he pick someone else then? Thats really what I was getting at after. Not THAT he unvoted, but that he really just completely dodged what you asked of him... pick smoeone to lynch. Maybe he picked sarag because he's a mime and he knew voting sarag wouldn't lead to a lynch. Furthermore, the unvote was just a show anyways, because most mods won't count a vote on a player not in the game.

Rhinox is in the 1000+ post club, and I really wasn't expecting this. A lot of set-up speculation and general information instead of analysis. His main thought was that kise is scum or mime, oh wait just kidding I agree he's probably town. And then he follows up by jumping on the scorpion wagon. Hey, rhinox, there are players in this game, and it'd be kinda cool if you, y'know, commented on their actions, and not just tried to play what-should-the-vig-do.

Did you meta my games, or are you simply assuming that because I have a lot of posts that I must prescribe to a certain style of play that you imagine all players with lots of posts should have? Do you know anything about me or how I play at all? Would you be making this argument if my username were "zwets"?

And for the record, kise probably is town, and scorpion probably is scum, and I've commented on players and things as I see appropriate. And I find it very odd that you single me out for directing the vig, what with all the confusion about win conditions and what not, and everybody asking hypothetical what ifs, and others arguing back and forth about whether or not to direct the vig, and everyone offering up their thoughts on who should be vigged.

Sounds like exactly what you guys need is someone like me clearing things up and suggesting what to do. Someone

experienced

. You do think I'm experienced, right? Because I have a lot of posts? Thats why you expected more out of me? (lets see who can pick out the sarcasm in this last paragraph and discern the point I'm actually trying to make...)

First thought: If someone claims watcher or vig, and is lying, for gods sake DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM, REAL VIG OR WATCHER. The town will work on a way for them to confirm. CC'ing - especially for the vig - is a terrible, terrible idea. Don't do it.

Second thought: I agree n1 the watcher should watch whoever we sic the vig on. I strongly disagree it should be kise - especially since it seems to mostly be for his jokey fakeclaim in an open. There is no incentive for mimes to post, because the usual tool of lynch all lurkers doesn't apply here. The town should pick a non-contributor to be vigged, because vigging is our only good tool to kill lurkers.

Third thought: we have a decent chance of having the scum kill the mimes. Just putting that out there.

Unrelated thought: kise, the fakeclaim was funny and all, but seriously, vote.

And here we have hito being hypocritical. Playing what-should-the-vig-(and-watcher)-do and providing IIoA.

and again in 225

and other places, but I'm not going to bother linking them all.

lulz @232 through 235. And scorpion really does have to lighten up. Its only a game afterall.

Or maybe I actually didn't know that you can't vote no lynch, and I simply wanted to gouge people's interest in the idea before I help support it?

Weren't you the one saying something about ignorance being bad or something like that earlier in the game?

he doesn't mind having a little scummyscumjuice drip on him

This sounds...

dirty

sigged

Why am I not dead yet
Vig Kise
Lynch me
Get this over with plz.

Why are people so keen on lynching someone who appears to want to be lynched? Does this not scream mime to anyone? Whether XScorpion is mafia or mime I think the possibility of him being mime could make him a possible vig target for tonight. I'm also not entirely convinced that Kise is a mime but he also looks like a good vig target.

looker is obvscum.
I'm hoping that by dying today, the other scum will be revealed to the surviving town. So by all means, go ahead and hammer.

How exactly would your death as VT help kill scum better than trying to lynch properly today? Also why are you trying to get killed as VT in a game where we have mimes who have to be lynched to win?

What is your opinion of Dry-Fit?

Looking over his posts it doesn't look like he has really done anything scummy but I don't have a very good read on him because he hasn't done much yet.

Lets see.. I am getting town vibes from xRECKONERx and hitogoroshi. I'm getting mixed vibes from Kise, XScorpion, and looker.

Still not done analyzing everything yet though..

No... mime-scorpion would have selfhammered when he thought he was at L-1. I think he's scum playing AtE to try to make us think he's town.

caught up now.

[Rhinox]

*yawwwwwn*

welp I'm going down anyways maybe if I now play it off as I was trying to get lynched people will think I'm a mime and unvote me and blah blah blah something about gaining information

by the way, any information that could possibly come from your lynch becomes invalid if you want us to lynch you. How can we fault anyone for being on your lynch if you requested to be lynched? Now you just have to die, and I still don't think you're a mime or you would have self-voted here.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, answer hitogoroshi's question or continue to look obvmime.

... what question?

Nice loaded question tho

[Rhinox]

Oh, was this a question?

Regardless, while I'm curious what your town read of kise thinks about this post:

Just bus me. The jig is up.

idk, it doesn't make much sense mafia or mime to make this statement. It could be goon or mime who's given up, but that would be playing against their wincon, and kise doesn't appear to have given up and he seems to be scum hunting. The only thing I can see that remotely makes any sense and attempts to satisfy a wincon is that its some grand scheme by a townie to try to catch scum. I'm not sure how exactly its supposed to work though, and I'm certainly not going to shed any tears if some people thinks statements like this make him scum and want him vigged.

The reason for my scumkise to townkise flip earlier was because I at first ignorantly didn't consider the possibility of a townie gambit for reactions or whatever. My mind first jumped to scum trying to create wifom (mime, or goon pretending to be a mime), and not realizing the ploy is scum suicide because of the vig. Then someone pointed out that he could be town gambitting and I *facepalmed* myself for not seeing that possibility, because it makes much more logical sense than goonkise or mime kise.

However, if I suspend my belief that kise actually knowns what he's doing, its possible he was scum trying to wifom us with the fake claim and actually did forget about the vig, and by now agreeing to be vigged we're supposed to think he's town because mime or goon wouldn't want to be vigged (much in the same way xscorpion asking to be lynched is supposed to make us think he's town because a goon wouldn't ask to be lynched). But idk, I've came across some stupid play and I've seen nothing THAT stupid.

P.S. Reason #2 Xscorpion is not a mime - he got to L-2 looking scummy and no one thought he was a mime. All he had to do if he was a mime was keep being scummy as he was doing and probably eventually get to a lynch - he doesn't just shift gears and request to be lynched making everyone think "obvmime". The first part (getting to L-2, while making us think he's not mime for not hammering when he "thought" he was at L-1 but was actually at L-2) would be excellent mime play, the second part (requesting to be lynched) becomes horrible mime play. Its inconsistent. No, the requesting to be lynched is obvgoon trying to make us think he's now a mime to get out of a lynch - notice how he still wants to vig kise (making sure he doesn't get vigged for suspicion of being a mime)? This also means both kise and xscorpion can't be mimes, for those that are working that angle still. mimescorpion wouldn't want mimekise to be vigged.

[Rhinox]

unvote

scorpion is town. Looker is town. Kise is still probably town.

vote: kyle99

vig: reck (gut feeling)

[Rhinox]

Why not go for flinter, who virtually no one disagreed with yesterday...? This lends a fair bit of weight to the idea of flinter-scum.

Thats completely WIFOM.

We have to be more careful now. We need the goons to eliminate the remaining mime before we can lynch both goons. Its still ok to lynch a goon today, but if it gets down to 1 goon, 1 mime, and the rest of the town, we'll have no choice but to intentionally mislynch a townie (since no lynch is not an option) or we lose to the mimes.


Also, i let the mod know, but I'll be V/LA from 1/21 to 1/26, so I'd appreciate not being lynched or anything while I'm gone.

I knew I was forgetting something in my rush this morning! Sorry. Rhinox did indeed note his V/LA. -The mod

[Rhinox]

Alright, I'm guessing someone who was on the Dry-fit lynch is probably the last mime, and right now, my top pick for mime is XScorp, but I need to look into it more. I'll wait and see if a watcher claims, for now.

Well, here's the deal. The competing wagon to kyle ended up being a mislynch. I can't see both goons jumping on a mislynch (dry-fit) if the competing wagon is also a mislynch (kyle), especially since a non-majority results in a lynch of the player with the most votes anyways, and scum would be indifferent to a kyle vs. dryfit lynch. The goons could be split between the 2 wagons, but the way the wagon quickly shifted to dryfit leading to a lynch without a claim makes me think that kyle is goon, and the shift to dryfit was led by the other goon to save his buddy and the remaining mime. IMO, that sort of shift to a lurker who happens to be mim just doesn't happen by town players alone. Conveniently for us, vote analysis based on the end of the day is made very easy based on the fact that all living players were on 1 of 2 wagons.

vote: kyle

because he should have been lynched yesterday, and I think if we look at {Mylynes, scorpion, Looker, (flinter), (hito)}, we'll find the other goon and the mime.

If I'm wrong and kyle is town, its not so bad because the 2 goons will still have to try to nk the mime, and tomorrow we can be nearly sure there is 1 goon and the mime in the group of {Mylynes, scorpion, Looker, (flinter), (hito)}, and the other goon will most likely be in the group of {reck, xoelf,

rhinox

}

I can't see kyle as being a mime.

[Rhinox]

A couple of questions for Rhinox:

1.) Would you be terribly upset if we lynched kyle while you were on V/LA?

2.) Vanity compels me to ask - why are flinter and I in parentheses in your bracket thing? I'm sure it's probably obvious and I'm just a tard but humor me please.

1) nope that wouldn't upset me at all.

2) my way of denoting you as secondary targets, because for now I feel like you both are town.

[Rhinox]

hmph...

Well, if kyle isn't scum, from my point of view, its at least a 50/50 shot of lynching scum between reck and xofelf. I don't see 2 goons pushing a dryfit lynch if kyle is also town.

I don't know if I buy forgetting that there are still 2 goons though. It could be a ploy to try to make us think he's town because a goon wouldn't self vote, but meh... idk, my second choice for lynch is xofelf so someone let me know if I have to change my vote before i leave for V/LA.

[Rhinox]

Why xofelf, Rhinox?

between you and her, she seems the more likely scum.

[Rhinox]

Reck its not a false dichotmy. IMO if kyle is town (or mime) there was pry at least one scum on hiswagon at the end of the day yesterday. I think that scum is elf by process of elimination - Its not me and I don't think its you.

Posting from my phone to

unvote vote: xofelf

before I lose access.

[Rhinox]

+1 for not reading your role PM, I guess. Even if it was unintentional.

urgh, I really thought I had a chance after dryfit was lynched and the vig was killed. I figured you goons would be mime-hunting, and I figured reck and scorpion were doing a good job pretending to be mime for me

Looker, why did you kill me, just out of curiosity?

I initially hated getting the mime role. Instead of playing the loljesterlynchme strategy, I decided to just scumhunt instead. Unfortunately, I typically get nked early in games as town, so I didn't want to look so town as to get nked, but I was genuinely scum hunting. When dryfit was lynched and the vig killed, D2 was all me being entirely pro-town and scum hunting. I hoped my V/LA would be enough to keep me from being nked.

ah well... good job looker. You were the last I expected to be scum. I sort of thought 1 of flinter or hito could be scum, and I was all but certain xofelf was scum o_O