Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[Ojanen]

Hi.
I've been skimming along. What I have gained of that:

Albert is absolutely town by the way. He's scummy, tunnelling, bullying the town awful yet brilliant, provoking OMGUS and replacement in his two primary victims/suspects and most importantly of all he's enjoying this game far too much to be scum.

This is 100% my impression too.

I couldn't resist joining when I saw what a blast Albert was having.
Apologies to Serial for the magnified stalking effect.

I'm traveling a lot in the next 24 hours plus need to deal with a deadlined game, expect a catchup tomorrow.

[Ojanen]

Hey, underestimated the time it takes me to catch up, someone got jealous to mafia.
Based on first 13 pages I dislike Netopalis a lot and Shotty a little less from the people playing the game and Ellibereth and CSL from the silent bunch.
I really don't think DLA is scum so far, confused as he may be.
Elaboration and full catch up coming tomorrow.

[Ojanen]

What is this thread, the attack of the chain lynchers? Yuk! Hating Shotty more in the mid-teens.
14 pages to go.

[Ojanen]

unvote

Albert

is town. His veins are pumping waaay too much real-seeming blood to come to any other conclusion at this point.

Farside

is prob town. I had a mixed read early but it turned into increasingly townish in my gut, I disagree with her often enough but I liked for example the formation of stance of getting from suspicious to DLA=VI rather than DLA=scum at a time when DLA was generally hounded.

Serial

is prob town. I would HATE to lose to him if he's scum so I'm harboring an extra layer of paranoia to the guy. But honestly, the catch up, 550, there where so many unobvious (that adjective is important) thoughts I agreed so violently on, meaning they had occurred to me too while reading. If he's scum here he's a genius at duplicating my catch up thoughts and especially a genius at guessing what town gut would say. The gut thing is not so easy if you have all information.
I hated his incarnation CSL, the self-vote was amongst the most idiotic posts I've come across on mafiascum, but meh on the scumminess in the end. Some of the scumtells he was dropping were less scum-seeming in taste than similar behaviour from others that got less attention, if that makes any sense.

Go ahead and lynch me. Once I turn town, go for hewitt. If he ends up being town, then go for ABR, as he and hewitt made an argument. If hewitt flips scum, then ABR is town, and then go for DLA.

Chaining lynches, yes, but this will be mere noise if he actually is lynched and turns up scum; motivation is shaky. Unlike the Shotty quote embedded next:

I'm now going for a DLA BW. Since hewitt now appears protown, as per this:

I could go for a DLA lynch today or tomorrow, if we lynched hewitt today and he flipped town I would be 100% behind a DLA lynch day two.

I am inclined to

Vote: DLA

This was a really stupid action again, but people jumped all over CSL for it and tended to leave Shotty alone for the worst form of chainlynching. (farside was an exception to this, iirc.)
That kind of stuff.
Serial's playing to his newer town meta, but I would need a more overarching picture (more game days) to judge this solidly. Anyway, not interested in the least at the moment in lynching him.

DLA

is prob town. Everyone hated post 74.
I could

understand

where he was coming from, even though some of the facts where skewed. The way of coming to this opinion change of getting a firm scumread and expressing it just felt townish, as did the reaction to the suspicion to him based on it, quetly keeping his read despite of that attention, the extent of suspicion thrown at him based on 74. I remember there was something else I liked too.
He's done a lot that makes little sense. Despite that, this is a firm gut read.

Ugh, interrupted.
Will continue this in a sec with content (cases);
towns came first because they were easier to write and I operate a lot by process of elimination.

will through out now that

scum reads:
Netopalis
kiku
Shotty (although mixed; the anger is hard to read)

super-mixed: saberwolf

unclear reads: hewitt, elli, kitty

unvote; vote Netopalis

[Ojanen]

The funny cursive on the word

understand

regards to DLA meant btw a specific feel of relation to the thought process which I use as a town tell. (It looks slightly nutty when I read back now )

[Ojanen]

Ugh, interrupted.
Will continue this in a sec with content (cases);
towns came first because they were easier to write and I operate a lot by process of elimination.]

Reading is tech, Neto.
Will come in a couple of hours when I'm alone again.

[Ojanen]

Ugh, interrupted.
Will continue this in a sec with content (cases);
towns came first because they were easier to write and I operate a lot by process of elimination.]

Reading is tech, Neto.
Will come in a couple of hours when I'm alone again.

[Ojanen]

Why vote now? Why not wait till the read is complete?

You misunderstood. I was referring to Neto not reading my post. I was done with the read, how else could have I given my stances on everyone.
I just got interrupted, didn't have time to write out more.

Should probably mention though that I've only skimmed very superficially the very last couple pages, got sick of reading and there was a lot of fluff, but will read the content amongst it again later.

Netopalis

The early stuff is very noncommittal. As an example post:

DLA...ugh. I know that last time we lynched him for play like this and he was the doc, but his play is just so...terrible...ugh.
The relationship among Kikuchiyo/Shotty/Saber/Konowa seems to be very interesting. If any of them are scum, we'll need to reexamine these posts very closely.

Initially meta-defends DLA, then fluffs on that. A bunch of drama among players; his stance is an extremely lame comment to it taking no sides.

I will vote DLA if the vote count shows that it would not put him in the danger zone.
Essentlally, I find that the whole "lynch me if you want" mentality is used by scum primarily. Due to the fact that scum's goal is survival, it is a way for them to appear town by making it look like they're playing against their goal - or for the town one. Overall, I really don't like his posts - even given that I played with him before and I posted the stuff about his meta.

Soon turns his back on the DLA meta; part of this is how violently I disagree with most of his reads early, but the way he wants to get on the bandwagon if it's not a dangerous vote and the need to mention the earlier meta stuff to stay consistent in the stuff he fluffed on, this is a scummy way of looking to bandwagon.

His take on the hewitt vs. Albert thing:

Wow....Just wow. Bitter much, Hewitt?
I have to throw in analysis of two players here...I think that their acts are extremely important.
First, Hewitt. Hewitt's overly aggressive defense is more than a bit troublesome, as are his bitter tirades towards the latter half of the game as it stands. I would not have suspected him had we not gotten into all of this with him.
That being said, I also have to post a few things about ABR....I really don't like ABR's statement asking people to pick whether they would lynch him or Hewitt. To me, that seems like scum that has found an easy target, but is too lazy to substantiate a claim. I know that ABR is an extremely lazy player (Love ya, but you are...) so this may just be his modus operandi, but I think that there may be something behind it.
First stop for the lynch wagon is, of course, Hewitt. ABR, I know it's kind of pointless now, but can you please explain why you originally suspected him? This is more so that I can analyze your play than it is so that I can analyze his.
Withholding a vote until questions are answered. Once I'm satisfied, I'll be happy to drop the hammer.

This would be very convenient for scum. Hewitt is scummy. ABR is quite scummy too.
First stop of lynching wagon is nonetheless hewitt (not substantiated very much why). Wants questions answered, but it reads like he would have already decided to hammer anyway. Has a taste of chaining Albert if hewitt is town.
Further developments muddy the dual setting there, he ends up voting Ellibereth soon and the readiness to hammer hewitt changes to needing to iso him, but I didn't like that reaction to the original conflict.

I don't especially like that he expresses willingness to policy lynch all of CSL, DLA and saber at different points.
I don't especially like that he asks for a while and votes ABR based on wanting a case on hewitt Albert has already made.
Oh, and some further vibes of the subtle chaining lynches too:

Now I'm turning my vote into something a bit more serious. ABR has been all over the chart today in regards to hewitt. Originally, he attacks him for no real reason. Now, he's buddying up to him like they've been best friends since time immemorial. I really think that this deserves a bit of explanation.

Still maintain that he's not the play today...but perhaps tomorrow.

His vote is not where he wants to lynch, btw. Overall his votes have an amount of disconnect to the suspicions he expresses from iso view.

Later:

Neto continues to perplex with yet another vote on ABR, this one for full serious. Points for balls, negative points for stupidity/wrongness. I can garuantee with 95% certainty that Albert is town.

I really disagreed with this, Serial. In your catch up you critisized Neto for going after easy targets. To this Neto replied seriously, and then very soon went after ABR with this post:

[snip]
Unvote, Vote: Albert B. Rampage
I unvoted earlier because I wasn't serious about the lynch. I am now. Albert will be extremely, extremely dangerous to the town if he continues to play as he is doing right now. People follow him largely without question - even if it means jumping off cliffs like so many lemmings. The way that he stays on people *just* long enough to establish him going after them later is rather bothersome to me - it seems almost as if he is trying to determine who he wants rid of and set the stage for their lynch in the future. Until he remedies this behavior, I will have him on my scum list and am adding him to the growing number of people that I would be willing to lynch today

.
Especially the last sentence feels very off; he's adding Albert to the people he wants to lynch but doesn't substantiate why he's voting Albert over the rest of the list. This vote at this point just felt like a complete response to the accusation, a remedy attempt rather than scumhunting.

Blah. I've got to go again, but yeah, Neto is overall just exhibiting this carpet of alien behaviour, plus lots of small content.
kiku is hellishly vague.
Shotty is more conventionally scummy but I'm more uncertain of him in my gut.
Will elaborate, but later.

[Ojanen]

We've got Ojanen who just replaced in and has seemed content to simply follow every suspicion that has been stated in the thread.

Way to go after me going on about CSL/Serial townread and DLA townread.
The way you wanna discredit all people on your wagon, the tone of it is making me only like my vote.

Ugh, this thread seems to go explosively fast. I'm flying to Japan today, that's why I'm having a hard time finding the time to post all my thoughts at once. Might not have access 24h starting from now, but tomorrow is a good day.
I will actually be very displeased if someone quickhammers before I have time to post a bit more about the people I wanted to and read up the latest pages. I will not unvote because I happen to like my vote a lot, and if someone wants to make themself scummy by hammering in the meantime they can be my guest.

Wanted to ask this from farside:

[quote="farside 513"}
@saber: your win condition and according to the convo I read between you and morph means your supposed to try and play not do have ass stuff to win a bet.[/quote]
What was this referencing to exactly?

[Ojanen]

Btw, from one of Neto's recent responses:

In definite terms, what was your case against Hewitt?

Given CSL's record (In 84% of his games, he's been either lynched D1 or has replaced out), is it really appropriate to transfer his acts over to SC as you automatically did?

Why did you decide to align yourself with Hewitt all of a sudden?

I can't believe you're still harping about getting a case on hewitt and Albert wrote out reasons a million years ago before you even asked the first time.
I didn't understand your desire earlier to completely drop all information from all three replacements' previous incarnations. You don't need to condemn, but why wipe out completely? Not advocating scum-CSL, but odd.
Seeing that, the question about Albert flip-flopping on hewitt is hypocritical in nature.

[Ojanen]

Oh, right , vanilla claim! Cool! My biggest concern was that I'd hit a mason.
I remember thinking kiku would look like very viable scum partner to Neto.

Serial, I haven't counted the in how long it actually takes me to get back with the time zone crossing frenzy and all, but yeah, something like less than 24, def. more than 12. Don't think that's so unreasonable in mafia scum time. As long as you kids don't break up the bandwagon in the meantime.
I'd also appreciate some Kitty content very much, the slot has basically not been in the game yet.

[Ojanen]

Ugh. It looks like I'll take a little longer to get access again, mightr5 be more like 48 hours, first noight won't have internet.
I'd like Kitty to chime in but won't ask you to wait for days for me, do as you will on the wagon.
Kiku and Shotty are scummy. That's the nutshell essentially.

/walks out to the big world

[Ojanen]

I am in Mongolia with varying access until 28th December.
Will get a post up, but likely not for the couple next days.

I remember thinking kiku looked like an viable scumpartner candidate for Neto while reading the thread. In fact that was mostly what I expressed wanting to elaborate on before the night and before kiku hammered. The hammer doesn't make her look exactly better. I'm gonna look again at it.

Suspects: kiku, Shotty, Kise (that's the new Yarmond slot right?).
I am gonna revise Serial slot but I'm not inclined to pile up on him at this point, his posts looked townish enough.

[Ojanen]

Serial: Did you know you were not hammering?

[Ojanen]

I hammered because noone was. It seemed to me like the wagon was being stalled. That indicated to me that Neto was scum and that his buddy(s) didn't want to hammer him.

Self-noting sentence that (unquantifiably) feels off, but need to read end of yesterday carefully to verify.

[Ojanen]

Tl;dr SC is spouting bullshit. Only Albert and Farside expressed any interest whatsoever in hearing from Kitty and Ojanen. Trying to paint that as some sort of cooperative town decision to wait on the hammer is entirely false. Again: SC is trying to have it both ways.

No.

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time. Albert had stressed not to hammer, modifying his stance from earlier. Serial had even just asked a question. Discussions were clearly, clearly more unfinished. Also, you had gotten disapproving remarks for an awful post.

What on earth was the point of that post you posted after you thought Serial had hammered by the way?

Looks like I missed all the fun while I was lurking.
If Neto flips scum then SC is scum?
If Neto flips town then ABR is scum?
Yes, no, from everyone please.

Beside being pointless post-lynch (as you thought) chaining, let's flip the last one to "if Neto flips scum the ABR is town". Ta-daa, we have the nightkill, and we have the person you seem to be attacking on a somehow more decisive way than your earlier actions are.

Going back to the hammer,

Why did you hammer?

I was bored. Sorry, but this girl likes excitement.
I think Saber is town. Does that make you feel better?

Maybe this was a joke, but I'd like to point out that you had been flaker-voting and then not voting at all since

page 8

. Yuk!
The wagon stalling thing, I note it hasn't come up with any other wagons so far, thinking of hewitt being quite similar but would need to check this.
Also lack of consistency to not voting right now, even though she's agreeing on SC being obvscum.
Disliked excusing herself as part of the wagon btw - none of the Neto momentum came from her spot.

I tend to agree. the defense is so protracted, and I believe that most of it came when Neto was not on the table for lynch(though I'd have to see a vote analysis for comparison). I think ABR was the only one pressuring Neto for some time. Hopefully our lurkers will return.

Actually a reasonable chunk of it came also when Neto was under heavy attack leading to likely lynch. He was being connected to CSL/SC, it would make sense from scum to strenghthen that.

---

DLA and SC are

STILL TOWN

, dammit.

I have a townread on DLA on his own.
Neto goes out on a slight limb to meta-defend DLA early, then on goes to pains on how to change that stance to attacking him.
The original statement sticks too much out as purposefully deviant to be likely buddy defending instead of townpoint-searching. And Neto feels way too careful in the switch. If DLA was scum, the tone would be different, less scared of consequences of a nonconsistent stance before the vote.

Serial is not scummy. Reread my initial catchup for expansion, don't wanna repeat. I do not like the manner of the attack today by kiku. Obviously Neto defended CSL which gives some pause but I don't currently see that as a likely scum-scum interaction.

"Don't hold replacement's actions against them" was weird from Neto. Slight wifom scumpoints to the Yarmond spot I think then, whoever's turn it is not to play it currently (Kise?).

[Ojanen]

I'm kinda disconnected from my D1 notes currently, meh, a week ago feels like a lifetime ago. The bulk of the kiku notes would have been callouts for very reactive playing, isos promised not happening, lack of commenting on dramatic events which is a very useful scumtell, lack of positions.
Slight tone problems with Neto commenting stuff like

Oh, hi. Forgot you were playing. You seem to be doing an excellent job of going unnoticed

and not pursuing further. Something else too, don't remember, would have to look again.

I will decide my vote once I have reread Shotty, I'm deciding between kiku and Shotty atm. That will happen now or tomorrow night. Pretty tired, like always when I reach the computer currently.

[Ojanen]

Oh, Elli, didn't see that before I posted.
I thought he was considerably scummy D1. Will reread and relook at old notes tomorrow to elaborate.

[Ojanen]

Watch out, quote wall coming. Sorry.

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time.

I disagree. Only two players requested time, and one of them put Neto to L-1. If Albert wanted to stall for time then he shouldn't have revoted.

There were

conversations going on

, as I already said.
The last content posts before your hammer:

It's important that we get to hear from Kitty's slot and have the rest of the town comment on the situation before we hammer Netopalis.

-question and answer between Saber/ABR
-question from Serial to ABR
-short shout out of scummy names from Kitty, catchup is under process
-Serial asks question from Kitty, doesn't like what he saw
-you hammer
That's clearly a cut.

See what you are doing here:

Disliked excusing herself as part of the wagon btw - none of the Neto momentum came from her spot.

You can't have it both ways. Either give me credit for being on the wagon, or don't. In situation 1 you are "blaming" me for ending the day(even though Neto was scum.) In situation 2 you are condemning me for pointing out that I hammered. That's not really fair. If we leave the thread open, people are going to continue to talk.

Deadline was just as far away when Serial hammered.

There were still two players who had contiributed very little.

MIGHTILY disagreeing that I'm unreasonable here.
There are obviously different ways of being on a wagon depending on timing, general situation, accompagnying persuasion of others etc. For the type of wagoning that creates momentum on scum you would get credit. For hammering someone who clearly looks like a inevitable lynch there is no reason at all to give extra credit. Me disliking you hinting to try and claim wagon credit is perfectly reasonable.

Albert had stressed not to hammer, modifying his stance from earlier.

Again: no. He put Neto back to L-1. Neto could have self hammered to end discussion.

This is just false, see the last quote from Albert above. Yes, he put Neto to L-1. And that got this interesting reaction from you.

As for you vs. Serial asking question of flip affecting reads, you asked in (false) twilight from everyone conclusions of a flip directly implying chaining Serial. Serial asked from one person with hyperlow content implying chaining noone (pre-hammer also, but that's not as relevant since lynch seemed inevitable).
I note btw you are constantly saying variations of "Serial did it too". Can you tell what was the point of your questions instead?

You're not voting yet either. Though I think SC is obvscum here, that doesn't mean we should pile on and finish him. He may very well be town. Interesting how you characterize my day 1 play as "hammering early", and now criticze me for being conservative.

How is me voting or not voting relevant at all? I haven't called anyone obvscum today. The whole point was that your hammer is uncharacteristically hasty regards to your other play, and your explanation at the time (liking excitement or whatever similar it was) doesn't fit rest of your voting patterns. Your last sentence misses the point.
Also, do you think I am scummy?

You are confusing me. I am suspicious because I am not voting, but you don't like my "manner of attack". Who have I actually "attacked"? I feel like I spent the beginning of the day defending myself from Serial, and the players I suggested we start filtering are those not on the scum wagon from yesterday. Same question to you as to the others: Even if you are suspicious of me, do you think that both scum were on the day 1 scumwagon? If so, who else is scum? If not, why try and use my theory against me when the odds are clearly in support of my logic(1/4 is easier to sift through than 1/6.)

I don't feel like rereading you right now again, but you have definitively attacked Serial, and you have attacked the non-wagoners.
I think you are the most likely scum on the wagon, and also consider you barely on it, and you are again defending yourself based on chiming in the hammer. Off wagon I'm still looking at Shotty and Kise. I'm keeping an eye on 2 others. Yes, I find it rather likely there was scum off wagon. No, that probability is zzz. I'm not looking at 6 people (actually 5 cause I know I'm town). I'm trying to operate non-randomly based on info from the thread; I'm looking at you specifically. I'm looking at the others I'm suspicious of specifically.

"Don't hold replacement's actions against them" was weird from Neto. Slight wifom scumpoints to the Yarmond spot I think then, whoever's turn it is not to play it currently (Kise?).

This is difficult to figure out as well. Inactives are usually easy targets for scum, so going out of one's way to protect player slots that are nearly vacant just makes little sense. Wifom, and almost to me seems like a train of thought we should abandon.

Wait wait wait. You agree with DLA that Neto going out of his way to give clean slate to CSL replacement is scummy, but in the case of Yarmond we should abandon the thought, when what he really did was express desire to give clean slate to everyone replacing in?

Oj: Who did Neto pursue as scum on day 1?

This means who he thought was scum? (insert compulsory "I have ESL" excuse here.)
Too impatient to iso right now. Off the top of my head he attacked ABR, shaped up to hammer hewitt, attacked Saber, vaguely attacked many really with not carrying that much out (expressed willingness to policy lynch DLA, CSL at some points for instance.).
What is the point of you quizzing me?

[Ojanen]

This is just ridiculous. You know just as well as me that ABR was pretty much obv-town, especially after the lynch, and it would be stupid for scum not to lynch him, regardless of kik's post. She was just stating the obvious.

That specific point was badly explained, you're probably right. Mind you, the post was before the flip. And Serial scum isn't obvious to me at all.

Neto goes out on a slight limb to meta-defend DLA early, then on goes to pains on how to change that stance to attacking him.

Post post how you saw Neto was attacking DLA?

I looked at it again and I'm getting slightly fuzzier about it since Neto seems to always attack DLA verbally rather than voting.
Individual town read on DLA still stands, although his last argument with Serial makes me argh.
Neto attacks DLA in some way: at least iso numbers 12, 15, 25, 28, 35

[Ojanen]

There were

conversations going on

, as I already said.

I never argued this.

False! See:

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time.

I disagree. Only two players requested time, and one of them put Neto to L-1. If Albert wanted to stall for time then he shouldn't have revoted.

----

This is just false, see the last quote from Albert above. Yes,

he put Neto to L-1

. And that got this interesting reaction from you.

Hindsight is 20/20. I have not attempted to argue that me hammering "clears" me. I simply entered today pointing to the group I felt it would be easier to sift through. Albert placed Neto in the postition he did. Neto could have self hammered just as easily as a hypothetical scumbuddy could have.

Honestly, after Albert

just

completely explicitly saying it's important to get reads from everyone and KittyMo before hammer, I cannot see how you can argue he wanted to end the day right away.
Pressure can get interesting reactions, like your hammer. I guess we'll agree to disagree that L-1 vote always means "I am fine with a hammer". (if that would be the case, claiming for instance would happen on a different way to the standard culture)
Fact is, you have attempted to defend yourself through the pure hammer itself.

Soooo, the lynch was "inevitable" after Serial's hammer, but not before? I am not following. The questions were the same with different wording. We were both asking questions of others in regards to how a flip was going to affect reads. Mine was a bit more specific in nature, but essentially the same. How was I "chaining" anyone? I was asking opinions.

Your first sentence seems confused, both question occurences were after the Serial hammer.
You asked from everyone, Serial from the hyperlowcontent Kise slot.
You asked pre-flip from all if Neto scumflip makes Serial scum. That has a sidetaste of chaining.

The point of my questions was to see how players reads would be affected by the flip.

And why did you want to know this from every player in the game after the hammer?

Expand on "uncharacteristically hasty" if you can.
Also, do you think I am scummy?

I get the feeling I need to repeat myself a lot here.
You voted a flakerslot/unvoted all the way since page 8 until the hammer. You are agreeing on Serial obvscum and yet haven't voted today. You said you hammered because you like excitement.

Funny. If you are going to make an accusation, please back it up. I specifically started the day by saying we should hunt off the wagon. Serial was on the wagon. I am not attacking him and I have not voted him. I am remaining active and responding to everything. If you take the time to reread you will plainly see that

it was Serial who attacked me.

You haven't voted anyone.
I guess I thought this was your position on Serial, correct me if I'm wrong:

So, what do you guys think. I think that SC is obv-scum..

I tend to agree. the defense is so protracted, and I believe that most of it came when Neto was not on the table for lynch(though I'd have to see a vote analysis for comparison). I think ABR was the only one pressuring Neto for some time.

Also, on a skim, I can't see any content brought up on who from the wagoners is scum, except that you're not sold on Shotty. Just going rounds and rounds asking what they think of each other.

No. I am saying that because Neto defended multiple players the way he did, that we might benefit from finding another way to scumhunt than simply trying to determnie who he defended most. Especially among inactive players.

Urrrrrrgh. Look at the quote above this one where you agree with DLA. I really don't get you.

What is the point of you quizzing me?

Because I think it is important we look at the whole picture and not just address who Neto defended, but see who he attacked and how he went about it. I don't expect much over the holidays from everyone, but this game is going to require some serious rereading if we are to make the right decision today. I accept that part of that is my fault, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

I still don't understand the question, it was an interpretation/analysis-void "what" question.

Goddammit with the Shotty iso!
I got halfway through but I'm just so tired again (I've played 7 gigs in the last 2 days and the next one is in 7,5 hours again and gotta sleep), not trusting my reading anymore either. Tomorrow. Sorry.

[Ojanen]

Serial - links for your kiku town meta? Very very interested in that actually, since I can't seem to connect to her at all here.
Watch out with the flattering buddy, you'll raise my alarms.
(Guess if my attitude to you is similar under the surface btw.)

[Ojanen]

OMG I missed the last posts.
Kiku I find your posts crazy or scum. I should sooo be sleeping but I don't think I can resist responding in a bit.

[Ojanen]

Internet cut out last night before I could send, so dropping the response in now.

I am not disagreeing there were conversations going on, I am disagreeing with the assessment that there was some sort of "cooperative town decision" to wait. How am I supposed to know that the other players "stalling" are going to deliver? Could I have waited? Yes. Let's move on.

Let's talk about this great stalling more, not gonna go rounds and rounds with the other arguments again.
The real Neto lynch momentum started after I posted my case and put the third vote on Neto on Saturday 12th. (Albert changed to Neto shortly before that without posting reasons, noone had been paying attention to Elli.)
You hammered on Monday 14th.
Oh the allmighty stalling! This is probably what felt off when I noted earlier that something was strange about your explanation. also, some of the "stallers" like Albert and me were already actually on the wagon. Hah, 2 days indeed.

Neto had been at L-1 before. Do you think Albert's unvote then revote changed in any way the inevitabitilty you claim to exist surrounding the Neto lynch? Hint: It didn't. There was no need to place Neto back at L-1. Don't blame me for Albert's mistake. Neto was scum. He could have self hammered.

You are actually directly describing you hammering despite his explicit request to not to as ALBERT'S MISTAKE.

You

hammered. Quit acting like an octopus.

Fact is, you have attempted to defend yourself through the pure hammer itself.

No. I am defending myself by participating in excess on day 2, questioning my suspects, and responding to my accusers.

I find it hard to understand where you're coming from because you're continuously responding with stuff that contradicts what you said a bit ago, it's almost like you're not getting me either.
You explicitly said we should look outside of the Neto wagon and posted the probability stuff. That equals defending yourself through the pure hammer itself.

The responses to my questions would allow me to see other players who "have a taste of chaining". How do you not see that as a relevant inquiry?

Last time I asked, you answered

The point of my questions was to see how players reads would be affected by the flip.

It's not a real contradiction since second one is more general, but it still feels different. I dunno, I'm a gut analyzer type of player, and this just feels you're making the second response up now.

Edit: Wait a second! There's another one, to Serial:

Untrue. I was pretty solid on your connection to Neto. If you note, I even asked a question at the end of day 1 to see how many others saw the same connection.

Ok, It

really

looks like you're making your reasons up here, this doesn't jive with the forst quoted answer (negative vs. positive.)

Actually, Serial was on the wagon and started the day as my biggest suspect "on the wagon". I think my stances have been clear. Would you like a town/scum list? Off the wagon, Shotty is my biggest suspect. What is wrong with asking other players what they think of each other? How else can I determine who is willing to lynch who? How else can I garner information to use after another flip?

Again, what on earth?
Note the dissonance to previous post:

Funny. If you are going to make an accusation, please back it up. I specifically started the day by saying we should hunt off the wagon. Serial was on the wagon. I am not attacking him and I have not voted him. I am remaining active and responding to everything. If you take the time to reread you will plainly see that it was Serial who attacked me.

You accuse me of not getting it right when I say you have attacked Serial.
I show you have clearly attacked him and you have attacked others vaguely.
You respond by saying that actually Serial is your top-on-wagon-suspect and that your stances have been clear.
Also, the problem with only asking those questions is that it's a way to be more easily non-commital.

Perhaps you should look at the timestamps when you quote opinions. Based on Neto's defense of other players we have differing views on who among those defended are most likely scum. Therefore, we should change our tactics to help us determine who is actually scum. Or would you prefer we blindly lynch one of DLA/Serial?

What?
Both timestamps are from this game day, not far apart, and in one you say Neto's defence implies Serial obvscum, and in the other you say we should find another way to scumhunt than to look who Neto defended the most (when I was talking about Yarmond).
Also, no I don't want to lynch Serial or DLA blindly, thanks for listening, I have been very extroverted on my stance on them but I can shout it again:

I think DLA and SERIAL are prob town

Are you kidding? Post 1060 clearly shows that Serial is not paying attention. He says that he would believe me if I said certain things. I quote where I said the exact same things. I haven't dodged anything today. I have responded to everything. You don't find it odd that he is reluctant to lynch the player who is most likely his scum partner(Shotty)?

No. No. No. Ugh. Tiring to spell it out. You're tone is nothing like admitting your actions, the "I could have waited, sue me, let's move on" statements only come after quote wars and denying the interruption of the flow at first, Serial's description is nothing like your tone.
Shotty being most likely Serial scumpatner just shows you're not reading the thread. Serial has attacked Shotty extremely aggressively, starting right in his catch up post. Your last question is just odd.

SC is so scummy that I would be comfortable waiting until lylo to lynch him while we sort through this mess and find his scum partner.

This is really really weird and anti-town.
You would wait until lylo to check your original assumption? You'd rather lynch someone you're less sure is scum?

Dammit. I'm tired of sitting on my hands.

vote: kikuchiyo

Shotty analysis aint coming today either.
I've nibbled at his iso several times, never having enough breath after addressing kiku.
This is extremely lazily put, but I like the case. I hated his D1 play. He's still hard to read. I feel more confident about the incomprehensibility I'm experiencing towards kiku, I have a more personal feel on that read currently, but I could support also Shotty's wagon. These are the only two wagons I'm willing to get behind at the moment.

[Ojanen]

Oops, second last quote should also be kiku, not Serial.

[Ojanen]

Two questions for you, Ojanen:
In your opinion, would anything KittyMo(or anyone else you were waiting on) could have said prevent a Neto lynch?
Was KittyMo(or anyone else you were waiting on) a likely N1 kill?

Probably not, but the point was to get reads on them, force them to take positions, thus forcing Neto to take positions.
I actually just originally wanted to be able to get my reads out in full (elaborate about kiku and Shotty).
Hard to assess about likely nightkill. KittyMo not. As Neto flipped scum I don't think I would have been an impossible nightkill since I had a lot of initiative in going after him, but Albert was always likelier than others; I'm just often eager to get my reads out since I do get nk'd a fair bit.

Yes and yes. And it worked as far as I can tell. SC has done everything in his power to avoid voting you [Shotty]. Kind of odd.

ROFL
Like Serial posting extensive cases and analysis against Shotty, and being the first in doing so?
And, you know,

voting

for Shotty on D1 and pushing for his lynch aggressively before my case on Neto?
This is really smashingly untrue.

Also, note the gigantic hypocracy. You think Serial is certainly scum yet are not willing to vote for him.

His [Serial's] case against me pretty much "requires" Shotty to be scum, while the case he made against Shotty stands fine on its own imo

Serial has posted plenty of reasons to vote you besides thoughts relating to you and Shotty. I mean really. We can all go back and read the posts you know.

[Ojanen]

Serial - links for your kiku town meta? Very very interested in that actually, since I can't seem to connect to her at all here.

Also, Serial, you might have missed this, would appreciate.

[Ojanen]

unvote

I buy the claim.
Sorry for all the pressuring kiku, just couldn't get where you were coming from.
I'm good with a Shotty lynch. Content tonight when I have some more time.

Kise: We NEED content from your slot.

[Ojanen]

Clogged up with getting from Mongolia to Japan to Europe and related stuff; taking time looking at things with wide eyes irl. Still approve of Shotty lynch and like the case. Content posting hard for me right now.
Shotty lurking at this point is a good sign.
I won't hammer in case Kise's about to do something but if I get access I'm also willing to do it soon.

[Ojanen]

Still fairly hopeful for Shotty scum flip.

Serial hate is all over the place. Meh.
Still think he's prob town.
Farside, why didn't you like my reasons for voting kiku when you also FoSsed her and said a her post was a big load a little before I voted her?

Kise needs to read the whole game.
His content so far is the rehashed defending arguments (might be original if hasn't read to end, can't tell) and some stuff that is interpreting Serial rather maliciously like finding the hewitt joke scummy.
Through process of elimination he's rather on my scumlist, but let's see the Shotty flip.
If he's not scum then I have rather disappointingly had 2 townies as sole solid suspicion targets today after yesterday's success and I need to completely reevaluate and reread. If he flips scum Kise stays surely high.

[Ojanen]

I was Wrong on D2 and I felt very detached from the bulk of the material in the thread after the traveling access problem stuff. I reread during the night. Albert, if you're still following, love ya for making that reread entertaining.

Gonna dump my renewed reads out.

I believe there must be 2 scum in this group: Scigatt, Kise, Serial, hewitt, DLA.

I came up again to the townread on farside based on overall feel. It was accentuated with this part of a post that she posted

after

Serial's (fake) Neto hammer:

Since this isn't closed yet just a few things I want to say

Farside and Shotty both took their time to look at you, and they said they saw
where I was coming from. Ojanen evidently thought you were scummy on her own as well.

this is false. I never said anything about neto. Whatever he flips I said I would look into it but didn't see a case.

It would be extremely deviant for a mafia buddy to post this, disparaging any negative opinion.

Ellibereth's town based on Neto relation and overall feel. Upon review I'm compelled to post this, if for no other reason than not liking some of the straight dismissal he had from others: I actually really liked some of his thought processes even D1 now that I really looked them through. I think the insults were based on a non-intuitive way of writing things out and not enough activity rather than actual content. The guy is smart and should be listened to.

From the group of 5 containing the scum I think, I still maintain a reasonable townread on DLA and he was the fouth vote on Neto IIRC.
Hewitt's rabid arguing back to ABR feels moderately good. He bitterly argued against lynching Neto at the point when Neto was at L-1 and absolutely clearly beyond saving from lynch. I can't easily see a scumbuddy doing that. A lot of people would look at those posts as scummy after the flip and it was clearly gonna help squat against the lynch. I'm gonna iso him soon again, but I'm not really seeing him as scum.

We have Scigatt(=saber), Kise(=KittyMo,Yarmond), Serial(=CSL) left.
I used to think saber town. There's aggression from Neto to Scigatt slot, but despite that upon reread I actually find this slot quite scummy. Case in next post.

Looking at votecount end of D1, the 4 people off-wagon were Shotty, farside, hewitt and Kise's slot. Shotty's town, farside's I believe town, hewitt doesn't really fit scumbuddy behaviour either - if there was scum off-wagon, I'd definitively call it the Kise slot. PoE springs this slot high up to suspicion slot. Yarmond's silence was null though, looking him up he has 0 gameposts on mafiascum.

Frankly and sadly, being confronted again with CSL and Neto's comments and a bit of Serial (questions should be coming later) I'm not as confident on the townread as I was before. I feel like there's no floodgate holding the aggressive suspicion towards him and I really don't want that to dominate the thread. I'd actually like to buddy him up to high heavens and merrily chase scum together. My top 2 is attacking him so that makes me feel better, and if I had to say black or white town or scum it would still be town. But I'm just getting more unsure, and more people have been PoEd away..

[Ojanen]

I'll read you properly in a bit Elli,
In the meantime going on to post my case on saberwolf=Scigatt.
I'm sorry about the wall.
This is one of those reads that is clouded in going back and forth and major self-doubting because I used to think it's a townslot, Neto attacked Saber at one point rather strongly and Saber was hard to read as hell. He isn't stupid though, he just seems to have a state of mind where he plays seriously and a state of mind where he goes ballistic and doesn't give a shit. He started this game in the serious mode and switched to a semi-ballistic-but-not-game-ruining mode along the way, I still feel he's far from those players that should be automatically forgiven lack of short-term memory for example.

First, some of why I didn't like Scigatt D2:
-exclusively easy target suspicion (Serial, then late Shotty wagon vote)

It's not that I think you're scummy, it's that I find your attitude really annoying. Also, it seems that others are responding to that with suspicion too so it isn't helping whatever faction you're on.(If someone can direct me to a good case on Shotty in D1 then that would be great. If there's a case in D2, I'll find it myself.)

Scigatt is voting Serial and likes the vote but apparently hasn't read Serial's posts if he hasn't seen the case

I pray that Sci has more to say.

Sorry, was away for a few hours(Less than a full day). I was just looking at SC's iso for his case on Shotty. Despite my read on SC, I think it's a good case. I have no qualms with anyone hammering at the moment.

Unvote,Vote:Shotty to the Body

then later easily goes from "it's not that I think you're scummy" to voting Shotty.
---

Next I'll show the full Neto to saber aggression that is ambigous to me.

Unvote

I really am not looking to bandwagon ABR. My vote was just to accentuate a point. Since he seems to have completely ignored it, I guess it didn't work. I am getting suspicious of Saber, though, for his eagerness to hop onto that idea without putting in much thought.

Saber had prominently hopped on several bandwagons before this one and Neto hadn't commented, he got a sudden jerk-reaction from saber following him.

I have no case on ABR, but his feeling of invincibility has me uneasy. However, I have reason to believe that he is town. I'm just vote hopping, trying to find something that I can finally lock down and go, this is why he deserves my vote.
Who haven't I voted for yet?

unvote; vote: Farside22

Your turn. I shall look at your posts and see if this is valid or not, most likely not. I should try to at least reinforce why you come off as town to me.

What the heck? I vote ABR to make a point, you hop on and vote him as well. I unvote him because I didn't want too many votes on him, then all of a sudden you feel a loss of conviction and unvote as well?

Vote: Saberwolf

This can be read in several ways, but Neto doesn't want to be connected to saber. The wifomic question of why not is imo at least worth asking. Town-scum connections are good for scum.

Saber immediately votehops again and Neto reacts with agression here.
After that Saber posts 2 comments to Neto that praise him. (I acknowledge this is not so typical intramafia, although there's the saber factor.)

I love this. You caught my attention and made me feel obligated to answer. Good for you
To be clear, I've always felt Neto is the biggest pro-town player we have. He is really good at putting pressure and making good posts. Do not vote for Neto.[... ...]

So what if Neto's voting for me? He's doing a good job of analyzing the game, and I cannot say I have seen a single scummy post of his. Are you saying that just because I have votes on me, all the people who are voting for me are scum? Of course not.
Now don't lynch Neto.

Uh, yeah. Let's just lynch Saberwolf. It's clear to me, at least, that he's going to be a huge liability in this game. He really isn't explaining his actions, he's trying to draw other people into his scumminess by associating them with himself (A bizarre strategy if I've ever seen one) and he's generally contributed nothing pro-town and plenty anti-town.

Neto's reaction to that is very negative again, he doesn't want to get associated to saberwolf, he almost straight up says it. It does make me consider why not and consider the possibility of distancing, especially in a game with masons, where looking at lynching based on links early on is not pro-town.

Why?

I am seriously considering this.
Scum usually likes being linked to town.
After this Neto keeps his saber vote and doesn't jump on Shotty, advocates saber over him, but then changes to ABR after one day.
Also, after saber's statements about Neto-town this

Awesome. Where's saber for the L-1?

Right here

unvote; vote: Neto

CLAIM OR DIE!

is MAJORLY strange... (saberfactor I know argh, but still, if there's anything that would fit the criteria of bussing...)

And he's majorly contradicting himself in these 2 quotes, short-term memory fail or untrue statement:

Just give me a gut yes or no - CSL scum or not?

oh, thats easy enough ^_^
I have to say no. It seems just too easy to be true.

unvote; vote: SC

I must say I liked this one best from the beginning, and here my vote will stay for the rest of the day.

I also didn't like the 3 instances early I saw that I thought were trapping the scumhunting view between mostly the wrong people; had a negative view on the max amount of conflicts which is a reasonable scumtell. (iso 39, 43, 44)

Allow me to arrange my thoughts a bit more and look at other people (Serial, Kise) before I cast my vote, but Scigatt's the top choice atm.

[Ojanen]

@Serial: your view on hewitt's behaviour regards to the Neto lynch wagon please.

I checked out hewitt's recent history - he flaked identically at the same time from another game that has now ended, he was pro-town mason there:
viewtopic.php?p=2019207#2019207

Okay I apologize I will actually do something tonight. I'm trying to finish a project, once I've completed that tonight I will read and catch up.

prodded dec. 21, didn't respond to it, 24th mod starts to replace him for not picking it up
---
prod sent here on 22nd, on 23rd and 24th mod says no response and mod has access stuff after that until short end of day post on 29th. I wanna know too what's the situation now though, is he being replaced and stuff.

Day starts Dec. 18th here. 18th to 22nd hewitt only posts in big brother mafia
-between 22nd and 27th only one post on site, in california trilogy post-game (24th)
-On a glance also another ongoing with extended silence

hewitt's worth a look but the flaking itself he did as town in another game at the same time.

[Ojanen]

Funny to see later if I mindread Serial's code.
iautttsiapotfn.

[Ojanen]

@Serial: don't really know how to ask this or if you can answer this, I know you've got to be effectively fighting and huffing with almost every slot pursuing you. I would just somehow, with black and deep sincereness need to know just how confident you are in your scumreads currently.

In which of your ended towngames have you felt most frustrated due to suspicion on yourself? Have you been unknowingly mislynched in other games than hambargarville?

@DLA: your current opinion on Scigatt, Kise and hewitt please?

[Ojanen]

Ojanen: Why did you not read the game yesterday (game day) before your vote and comments you made?

I have no idea what you mean.
I read the whole game already before my first big content post upon replacing D1.
After catching Neto I wanted to reread parts of the game again, which was delayed several times - I was on unexpectedly seriously limited access practically from 13th to 30th of December (traveling to/in Asia and back and working hard+computer problems), I still contributed but it left me always with too little time to reread to my contention. I reread the parts I thought were relevant to my vote before casting it though. During N2 I returned home and did all the rereading I wanted.

@Serial, thank you for that. Ugh. I hate that I really want you to be town this game. Symptoms of a white knight syndrome or something.
I actually sympathize with your scumread on Kise/Kittymo with a degree of caution, if I had to call it right now it would be Kise/Scigatt.
Can you please look at hewitt on pages 33-38 and tell me if you're seeing scum, really interested in that.

[Ojanen]

Does anyone have/know any games where saber was scum?

Yeah, I searched during the night, although didn't feel like I got much wiser from it. Most of these are shorter stints of replacement though.
viewtopic.php?t=11708
viewtopic.php?t=11668
viewtopic.php?t=12181
viewtopic.php?t=12037
viewtopic.php?t=12442
viewtopic.php?t=12650

Your post day 2 vs day 3 seem completely opposite. It's seems reading between the 2 you read the game more in your last post then day 2 where I felt you were just following what others were saying.

Please read me in iso again, don't really recognize myself from this, I think I've had plenty of initiative. My kiku exchange D2 wasn't following the least what others were sayng, also check out my D1 catchup posting. The only thing that has been vaguely following others was Shotty suspicion, who I never ended up having the time to iso to my proper contention (never voted him either).

[Ojanen]

Hmm, maybe that came out to too strong to farside. Surely the tone in my posts after the second reread and being out of limited access is different, but it doesn't mean I hadn't read the complete game already before.

[Ojanen]

@Scigatt: Happy scumday!
How much of the thread had you read before this post?
What is your opinion on hewitt, Kise, DLA?
Can you elaborate for a more concrete reasoning for your phobia of twilight/pre-certain-lynch talk; would you have hammered hewitt D1 to limit discussion?

@Kise: Your slot needs emergency content.

What do you think about Scigatt, hewitt and DLA? Do you have other suspects besides Serial?

---

In the end most of your argument with kik was in regards to her hammer vote and comments the next day thinking scum would hammer. Why would you think Neto would not hammer himself to stop conversation vs a scum buddy doing just that? Again this was stuff that serial was bringing up more about kik which I disagreed with.

I think I started from disliking that I felt she was trying to get towncred from the hammering that I thought was null at best. Then we just had a breakdown in communication in various fronts, I just couldn't understand her thought processes at all when I didn't realise the underlining influence and motivation from nighttalk with Albert.

Regards to the lack of Shotty case: if you look at my iso also from D1, I had him on my shortlist of suspects from the first post. Why I wanted to delay someone hammering after my Neto case and vote was that I wanted to have the chance to iso and elaborate on kiku and Shotty. When V/LA hit worse than I thought I didn't get a chance before the night. I was very V/LA during the night and never had enough time during D2 to read to my full contention, my original read of the whole game had been almost a week earlier when I got round to being here for the first time D2.
You can think lazy instead of tired and pressed for time if you want, but it's reflected in my other games on the site and trackable. One at that time ongoing is ended (viewtopic.php?t=12686) and in the mafia quicktopic (objectively no reason to lie there) I say on 17th, which is towards end of N1 here

I'm sorry, I didn't know I was going to be this limited on access! I hate dealing with my mafia games like this.I've gotten a new adaptor now, I tried posting yesterday evening but I've been having nonstop 12+ hour days with our rehearsals and jetlag remains + carryover sleep debt just hit me unbearably hard afterwards. I'm gonna construct some form of a post now though, although again cutting sleep time.
charlatan, I'm in Tokyo (well in a suburb in Yokohama right now). It's only my second time here though and I'll be flying to Mongolia tomorrow. I'm not in Asia on a regular basis.

That was just before the day here. I actually had to be very not lazy to get to mafiascum at all.

I think you are the most likely scum on the wagon, and also consider you barely on it, and you are again defending yourself based on chiming in the hammer. Off wagon I'm still looking at Shotty and Kise. I'm keeping an eye on 2 others. Yes, I find it rather likely there was scum off wagon. No, that probability is zzz. I'm not looking at 6 people (actually 5 cause I know I'm town).

Why would you mention yourself in this statement when you were voting for neto at the end?

If I understand the question correctly as referring only to the last sentence, it was the context: kiku was talking about probabilities and talking about 6 people on the wagon. I mentioned that even if I was randomly looking at the people on the wagon it still wouldn't be 6 but 5 from a wagoner's perspective.

[Ojanen]

Ojanen: Why did you ignore the comments I made about the interaction between neto/SC yesterday and bring them up today.

I have shouted out a probtown read on him several times earlier, which I had since replacing in. People I suspected after Neto were town (kiku and Shotty), and process of elimination is radically cutting down the slots I think can be scum. I acknowledged that upon reread I came out more unsure of him on some aspects and it made me a little nervous to come across some of the early things again. If I have to say black or white town or scum it would still be town though. It's just hard to put any but 2 slots as considerably less likely town.

As for the last statement I was a bit confused before but I think your saying you thought one of Kise/SttB (not on the wagon players) was scum and 1 of the players on the Neto wagon was scum. Is this correct?

I'm not gonna check my iso now but I don't think I cared so much of the distinction wagon/not wagon as the way of being on a wagon or not being on it. My 3 suspects after Neto were kiku, Shotty and Kise, that is correct. I don't think I had any axiom of one on wagon and one off wagon per se.

Ojanen: You keep saying DLA is town but don't seem to regard his vote on SC as anything.....do you think his following right now is really town?
Also for every connection you give neto/SC I have one for DLA/neto. You didn't seem to respond to the fact either of them could be under the same category.

I don't like his play, no, but he reads as reasonably townish, and I my gut doesn't tend to read Neto's relation to him as scum. Neto defending someone vulnerable to early attacks is not something I put conclusive stock into, also, I'm getting some overcompensating vibes from Neto's play. DLA's one of the 5 I haven't eliminated of having some chance of being scum, but I think at this point he's probtown.
I haven't elaborated at all on SC/neto connection, not sure you're thinking of a post of mine there.

[Ojanen]

farside, have you looked at the netopalis wagon again?
My Elli feelings have in more to do with Elli's vote and case on Neto than the opposite, even if I don't take in account other individual play from Elli.

[Ojanen]

Farside,
I understood from your post you thought I had a strong pro-town read based on Neto's lonely vote on Elli, my question was partly to explain my thoughts more.
We clearly have a different approach to working within a mafia game; if I'm aggravating you my question was obviously counterproductive. You're probably gonna see this as questionable self-crediting but I was kind of wondering in how good memory you had the happenings around the Neto wagon getting momentum since I had a lot of influence in getting him lynched. Elli also, I think. And there would have been a lot of lynchbait to latch onto at that time, for example the newish Shotty momentum that was going on and a bunch of weaker players. But I see now you're on top of things, don't shy away from the thought of out-of-blue bussing of a reasonably strong player and will let you form your own judgments in peace, since ultimately this seems to me town-town noise.

Also I've been fighting with SC for 2 game days now about him as scum where the hell were you during that!

I think you know where I was. I was exclaiming that he's prob town and working with him.
Now I'm more unsure due to flips and new thoughts and posts. I'm still not certainly jumping to his throat, just trying to figure him out more actively.

You two must have went over distancing in your QT last night Confused. I also noticed you have a habit of getting cozy with SC here. Is there a story on you two outside of this game? I think that'd help me.

Haha, you must think I'm extremely unsubtle.
We have conversed non-game relatedly for a fair bit and played together in a bunch of games. I like him/playing with him. No further story, we don't know each other in rl or anything.

Kise, easy stupid question, can you confirm that you really meant that you're on page 20 of the catch up and it wasn't a typo?

[Ojanen]

I hope the reverse isn't true, and if part of your white knight syndrome is stopping you from making a case on me, Ojanen, time to suck it up and make that case. In all honesty, I'd appreciate actually responding about my 100+ posts this game rather than the same thing every time. (Note, Kise is trying and failing hard to do exactly this, because he's scum and doesn't want to recycle the same bad arguments but can't find any more good ones).

No, I don't think I'm that biased Serial.
I'll make a case if I'll think there's one to make, if I'm not satisfied with answers you're giving me, and I'm waiting on a question at the moment. I'd be less careful about it if there was more of a floodgate for holding universal high suspicion of you, but it actually seems today the dynamic has slightly settled. The white knight syndrome has more to do with you being hounded here and me liking some parts of your content very much.

A vote and calling him scum is figuring a person out these days?
*mutters something about people talking about my scum hunting ways that can't be heard*

I'm sorry, I don't understand you. I haven't voted him. I haven't called him scum. I have said I am more uncertain after the complete reread and more PoE.
Honestly I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing why you seem very aggravated at me, and I mean this in a different way than just thinking I'm scum because that's a normal part of the game.

Listen my curiousity is about you right now. Going from proclaiming someone a town to flipping and following a case would make anyone look at you twice and (stops before I say something that brings other games into play here)

This is a huge exaggeration of "after a complete reread I have become more uncertain about this slot", and me following the reasons of the old case is your own assumption.

You voted for kik day 2 proclaimed a case on her day 1. Day 1 case had nothing to do with your day 2 case against her.
Forced her out do to lack of communication (but really I just thought the whole case was crazy to begin with and part of me thinks scum was driving that case on her in the first place)

I did not force her out due to lack of communication, we were writing walls to each other. I thought her answers were scummy. I hit the wrong (somewhat) informed minority.

Now I come into day 3 and I feel like I'm talking to someone completely different then day 1 or 2.

The only difference is availability of time which you can track across my games and I think my catch up still contributed a lot on D1 since we got a scum lynched.

[Ojanen]

Ojanen: Is it typically for you to put a case together and not place a vote? IE: is there a reason you are not voting anyone at this time?
I mistakenly thought you voted without a vote count it's a bit hard to remember who is voting who right now.

I dunno typical as in meta examples, I do pretty often take some time to get around to voting but dunno coupled with cases.
I wasn't voting Scigatt because while seeing a lot of stuff against him I'm insecure about the read due to some Saber stuff and wanted to hear more from Scigatt, I wasn't voting Kise because that read is partly heavily PoE based and I wanna see more of his content. I wasn't voting anyone else because I thought those 2 were the scummiest. I essentially haven't decided yet the lynch I'm backing up.

Reread my day 2 comments and tell me you don't see some similarities. I'm always a bit suspicision of someone who ignores a case on someone 1 day and then starts up a case that someone had the day before that said nothing before about it.
It could all be related to the trip you took. I can concede that point.

This, coupled with PoE, is all I've directly said about the reasons of the Serial uncertainty so far:

Frankly and sadly, being confronted again with CSL and Neto's comments and a bit of Serial (questions should be coming later) I'm not as confident on the townread as I was before.

Which nods to CSL's and Neto's direction but is actually completely vague and certainly not a case, people seem to be filling in their heads what I was thinking.
Tell you what, after he's answered the question I'm waiting on I'll put down the stuff that makes me think town and the stuff that makes me twitch and we'll be done with this.

@Serial, the question I'm waiting to get an answer from you repeated since it might be a little buried

Can you please look at hewitt on pages 33-38 and tell me if you're seeing scum, really interested in that.

Aaaargh to Scigatt replacing out now without a word.
I know sometimes circumstances dictate that you have to do that, I think it would be better if people would at least answer remaining questions about their own play before doing it, that takes no catching up (saw him online at some point after his last post).

* grabs to OJ * Point to statement here.
This is incrediblly bad POV (point of view)

Well, agree with you.

[Ojanen]

Thanks Clergyman.

Above all, I'm looking for honesty.
Why did I ask about Hewitt there? Because of the completely explicit tirade and tying himself to Neto when the lynch was obviously and clearly unavoidable.
Identical to your argument about the Neto defending you when he was teetering above the grave, which I thought was a pretty good argument, still do. Although upon reread the circumstances were not too far of the last sentence in your description of hewitt:

OK, so now he actively defends Neto. This is interesting in that it's never been brought up (despite much discussion). I continue to think that it's hard to judge someone who is defending someone who is about to be lynched. On one hand, there was no reason to tie himself to Neto, on the other hand he was defending Neto for quite a while so he couldn't really do a 180.

So cue in a bit more uncertainty, as I mentioned.
So I did get spontaneity, didn't get a better read on honesty. You are obviously going to be biased on an argument about yourself, but the degree of double-standard applying it to others is still something I wanted to see.
(I disagree with several of the things you brought up on hewitt btw but that's not so relevant unless we're about to lynch hewitt based on them.
The later case by Albert was based on more widely accepted scumtells - I would pretty much expect people to find it more convincing on average.)
I'm looking for honesty because I was worried about acting vibes from some of your posts like the opening speech today.
(example:

Game over. If you guys can't get over CSL's self-vote, that's the road map to winning the game.

)
I could see a townie having a really strong feeling of patterns from D2 (I do know that's what you do very sharply), but I also could see the motivation for a scum having a straightforward plan and benefit of trying to file one more lurkerslot lynch in a really difficult dynamic for you. From yesterday I guess it's stuff like

Normally me too, but having three separate people flake is much more scummier than one, and it's been for two copmlete days AND the content that we've had has been shocking.
how extravagant.

calling KittyMo's post "shocking" and not checking whether Yarmond was ever on the site and stuff.
Ugh I'm not being very coherent.
I guess I mean the fact that if you're town, and if we lynch another town today it's gonna be a real challenge to pull it together for no town to vote you in lylo. Yet you're raring with confidence and seem to sometimes speak from these emotional plateaus and I don't think you have really checked some of your assumptions or had time to reread a lot or stuff like that. And I know you're good at acting and know how to use that.
You could well be right with your reads (and usually as town you are) and we agree on being very suspicious of the backround people, but yeah, something like that.
There's also some conventional stuff I'm not so sure about like

*is epically surprised that Kise would go with the standard 'CSL woz scum' line*
Honestly, that guy is scum.He should be lynched tomorrow. Shotty scum or not, Kise is no doubt scum.

You hate when people do this, it was used to lynch Shotty etc.
And sometimes playing up your expressed Neto suspicion on D1.

Meh, I don't really like this post but not sure how to explain it better or if I would want to. As I've repeatedly said I feel very townish impulses too. But just more uncertain because so many people seem town.

Still aaaaarghing, thread needs Kise and Scigatt/hewitt replacements to get anywhere.

[Ojanen]

EBWOP - I quoted this:

Normally me too, but having three separate people flake is much more scummier than one, and it's been for two copmlete days AND the content that we've had has been shocking.

the line "how extravagant" in my previous post didn't belong in this quote, 'twas a snarky remark copied accidentally from my reread notes

[Ojanen]

farside, I'm also leaning Kise.
Not sure what you mean by sat or if I'm good at it or if I'm too scummy but I'm willing to help out and I'm here.

[Ojanen]

Ok, simul.

[Ojanen]

farside - know where you're coming from, I saw that too and mentioned it in my reread dump, we do think alike sometimes (well until we get to who's the second scum)

Serial - I get your position. I've replaced in 3 newbie games D2/3 to a slot that was gonna get lynched to do some heavy lifting and I know the pressure of the mob, although this game is quite extreme on the suspicion front for your slot. I guess the whole thing was based on the fact that I take catching scum as such a dark necessity in those games because getting mislynched in lylo after advocating a mislynch is even worse than getting mislynched not-in-lylo, and I end up wanting to check and double-check and being scary, and your way of expressing stuff being so certain was just feeling like it's coming from another place. But I know we're not the same person.

I did some thinking on this while playing Bach, that guy always helps. The thing is, I realised, I'm probably not less suspicious of you because you're you. I think it's actually the opposite, I'm more paranoid (partly because of not wanting to be biased). If it was someone else I would let the townish indicators dominate, despite of other stuff, because they feel strong (someone can ping me if they want me to elaborate, there was something recent I liked again), stronger in themselves than for DLA actually, for example. There's a question Kise asked I didn't bother to answer because I felt meh about filling up the thread more about the whole link between us and my attitude and meh about getting the whole thing about me being more uncertain blown up:

Serial

is prob town. I would HATE to lose to him if he's scum so I'm harboring an extra layer of paranoia to the guy.

You would hate to lose a scum player here? Rephrase this as if I was a nuclear retard, because.. well, just type slow or something. Put this in other words for me.

And I think it's actually still true. In other words I would heavily dislike losing to scum and HATE losing to Clergyscum. I said it because while you have been town in all of our games, I followed you for a while in Mafia 96 and you had me completely fooled, and I would hate to be able to learn from that. And sometimes there's stuff like friendly rivalries with people you know more, and I guess it was some feeling akin to that.

Bottom line? People who think we are scum together can put another black mark in their books. I'm toning down the paranoia for now.
Also, I don't want you killed before lylo (in current wavering of ummm, prob town, maybe, I guess, aargh). I just want no town to be hopelessly tunnelled on you if you end up there, and we need to really find scum and do stuff to get some insurance.
Also, I do not mean this whole thing to be read as expressing that your scumhunting has been lacking. It has been energetic and loose and very Serial.

[Ojanen]

Kise, where are you in your catch up?
Your posting consisting of shouting in between small bits, drumming up anyone who had a relationship containing defence of Neto or disagreement with Neto attack is noted. It looks what I would take advantage of as scum and possibly easy.

[Ojanen]

So you don't see either SC or DLA as possible scum connected to Neto?

It's possible (scum is 2 out of Kise, Scigatt, DLA, hewitt, Serial), but for me it's definitely far from definite in contrast to your current opinion.

[Ojanen]

Nah I'm looking at SC based on his interactions & slips against Albert, plus CSL's behavior doesn't help. SC tried to lie to me and say that CSL self-voted when he wasn't in trouble... Well, hello!? CSL had 3 votes (iirc) on him before he self-voted. SC tried to mislead me at the end of yesterday and that only further digs him in the hole as far as I'm concerned.

Saying that SC lied seems to be a lie from Kise, and I don't like that.
Totally can't see it. Quotes please or it didn't happen.

[Ojanen]

hewitt flaked from 2 and had a 10 day silence in another and stayed active in farside's game. more later.

[Ojanen]

I wanna lynch Kise over hewitt.
There's nothing about Kise that suggest town to me, while hewitt is more ambiguous.
I would need to verify whether my rough feel is right, but basically

every single time

I remember him coming back to contribute it has come right after someone prodding him or pressuring him, followed with gaps.
This newest vote feels again like a complete reaction vote. Gonna verify.

[Ojanen]

Kise, what do you think about DLA? (sorry if you've already answered, didn't catch my eye at least.)

[Ojanen]

Do you agree with 1{Kise/Hewitt} + 1{Dla/Sc}?

No. It's certainly possible but I'm not excluding other pairings (Kise-Hewitt, and unsure about Scigatt).

I'm quite sure Neto never did that reread on hewitt.

[Ojanen]

I have wifomed myself slightly around Neto keeping asking forever for that case from Albert on hewitt, while Albert had already written a large chunk of a case here.
Asking for a case that has been written is an incredibly easy thing to shrug off - judging from the continued harping on it I think it's more likely Neto had missed/forgotten it. For me it's less likely that Neto would miss something of this scale/encourage repetition against his scumbuddy than someone else. A lot of wifom and raw thinking here making me look silly, I know, but yeah.

[Ojanen]

Mind you, I'm taking into account that he's from Norway.

Side comment: lol. I'm Finnish, my head makes that sound like you think we're living in caves here.

[Ojanen]

Oh, I should probably point out for everyone, this game doesn't follow the normal no-lynch-at-deadline rule - it uses the half-votes system, meaning that if any one player has 3 or more votes at deadline, that player would be lynched except in LYLO.

hewitt has 3 votes according to your votecount, farside, so still....

Doesn't that render the "Neto didn't hammer hewitt" argument quite ineffective btw? No need to get on the wagon if it was a mislynch one.

I have asked for deadline extension as scum for no own benefit, I dunno. The hewitt wagon looked very likely at the time to get completed regardless.

[Ojanen]

Ugh. I think I'm contradicting myself. Too late night to play mafia.

[Ojanen]

Thread's stalling due to replacement waiting and I'm not helping it, although we need the replacees before going to night anyway.
Kise going all sugary on DLA ("it comes from the heart") now doesn't really jive with earlier assessments of gut.
Noting.

DLA gives me bad vibes. Same with CSL. Not exactly diving into conversations themselves; simply commenting on what others talk about. Not saying they have to get into arguments with others, but have some 1-on-1s, or 1-on-many. Get gangbanged like hewitt if that's what it takes.

DLA and hewitt make me cringe.

Page 33. What I've learned so far is that DLA's reads are not dependable

In addition to the positive read now was this comment:

This was after DLA pursued Ellibereth (so, again, kudos to DLA for starting a case and not following)

The switch from SC to hewitt as his biggest suspect seems to possibly follow the thread mood of slightly lessened SC suspicion, in addition to having a timing that seems to possibly stem primarily from Kise getting votes himself. He actually posts negatively about Neto not hammering already right in his D1 catch up before exclaiming with certainty that Serial is scum and that read surpassing the hewitt one.

I'm sorry guys, when I read hewitt I just don't see that much scum. Just don't.
Blah, holding my vote off when my gut is kind of set on Kise anyway is just stalling the thread further. When I read his posts it just feels off. I'm not the most awesome scumdar-possessor ever, I could be wrong about this one especially with the sparse material but when I don't go on gut and try to rationalize starting from there I end up with much less accuracy. Kise reads as scum, hewitt just doesn't really, that lynch would feel wrongwrong, that is all. From Kise I don't like the reactionary air, I don't like the easyness of his reads basically going for most blatantly easy and obvious Neto connections, linking them to each other or their respective most blatant connections, basing stuff purely on the connections, pacing of posting, everyone else feeling more town in some way, gutgutgutgutgut.

vote: Kise

[Ojanen]

I remember after CSL unvoted hewitt it looked really suspicious to me and thought of it as scum bassing and backtracking their vote.

Reading CSL reads like reading a jester to me, he was going off and on hewitt like 3 times with reasoning that honestly seemed like it's gotta be an intentional joke ("that post makes hewitt pro-town";unvote=>"someone commented negatively on hewitt";vote hewitt).
But I can't read that or him really besides that he seemed happy enough to get lynched.

[Ojanen]

Oh and

mod: I think you missed SerialClergyman's vote on Kise.

[Ojanen]

Waiting for him to make scumslips will not help you lynch him if he's scum; at best, you have to determine a relationship based on dead scum like I'm viewing Neto-hewitt. Neto's interactions with Shotty appeared in a case used against him mid-day 2.

When you see my post voting you featuring the word "gutgutgutgutgut" and telling specifically that the starting point to rationalization that finds me scum most often for me is just that, it should be pretty clear to you I'm not sitting around waiting for "scumslips", only some of which I find useful scumtells in the first place.

You mentioned earlier that you had a game or two with SC, but I don't get why that explains how you two are kind of buddying up here. On the surface it looks like Ether & Patrick, but since this relationship is only 2 games or so, I'm not comfortable with your trust of each other when there's only one mason left.

Read the posts man, I hate repetition and I don't feel I've actually favored Serial ingame out of outgame reasons, I basically got a townread right from D1 and elaborated on it starting in my catchup for transparency.

We have conversed non-game relatedly for a fair bit and played together in a bunch of games. I like him/playing with him. No further story, we don't know each other in rl or anything.

"Played a bunch" means we've played in 4-5 ended games together.
"conversed non-game relatedly for a fair bit" and "I like him" means that we have become friends outside of games.
If you want more transparency on why I think he's leaning town now you should ask for in-game reasons as I suggested people who wanted clarification instead of playing down my earlier out-of-game answer.

If and only if the game doesn't go to night after it and we still get to lynch, I agree to a hewitt modkill.

(Yes, I have a gutread leaning rather more town than scum but I'm ok with cutting down the pool of 5 possible scums since it costs us nothing, black&white info is great and it's obviously likely ABR wouldn't have run up his mason buddy like that.)

[Ojanen]

Thank you for replacing in, Budja, awesome that we got someone.
The modkilling without going to night wouldn't probably be game ethically that right anyway in this situation since it would become part of game tactics.

Whoever unvoted SC earlier (and you, farside), would you consider hewitt or SC more? I didn't know SC is at L-4, so support for that lynch looks easier.

Kise, I don't understand the reasoning why you switched back your opinion again back from top-choice-for-lynch-is-hewitt to top-choice-for-lynch-is-SC.
Some post of his trigger it?
Cause reading the reason here doesn't make sense to me, actually "L-4" means 1 vote and hewitt had 2 (counting also yours), and I think hewitt was gaining momentum if anything.
Just curious.

[Ojanen]

Shit. I'm feeling farside scale uncertainty. I have an urge to unvote just for that. Feeling sucky about my reads.
Replacement timings make me wifom myself thinking about a scum outside of Kise, hewitt and Scigatt.
Ugh. I'll get a grip on something later today.

[Ojanen]

Naw, actually that's no way for someone with a weak personality like mine to play mafia. Too low blood sugar level fail posting. Something's fishy with my reads but I need to separate it from traveling induced appetite loss effects. (gut etc hehe.)

Kise, when and why did your read on DLA change?

[Ojanen]

Side comment: lol. I'm Finnish, my head makes that sound like you think we're living in caves here.

haha =) but that's what we do though

Uh...you're right... my family runs the polar bear cart taxi service in Helsinki so we have an actual farm to keep them and I sometimes forget the layman's conditions
Any idea about the scum who's fooling people then? What would be your opinion on uniting the nordic people on a Kise bandwagon?

[Ojanen]

Liking my hewitt read.

[Ojanen]

For some reason, it annoys me to talk about the out-of-game relation to Serial in-game. Should maybe work out why.

Anyways, come on Kise.
I have a tendency to be vocal about my townreads.
If I have a white knight syndrome, it is not specific to Serial.
Look at me exclaim that

DLA and

Serial are townish throughout the game.
Look at me right now defending hewitt based on contra-popular opinion and obscure things, you even brought that up. Look at me trust Elli and farside.

My reads can absolutely change. In this game I have a problem of looking around thinking that rats, that guy looks town too, how can this be. Some reads have been downgraded a little to match it (DLA and Serial, incidentally).

But if I currently think someone's town and under heat, I say it.
I haven't ever been burned by it in a mafia game as of yet. Some day, perhaps even this game, I likely will. So far not.
See, mafia is a team game. If I have ever had any moments of benefiting my team as town, it has been due to looking town, sometimes people following a case of mine that happened to be correct, but above all being able to unite some of the town team to action better together and listen to each other.
Get a strong read that someone is town=>listen(with critical ears)=>try to perhaps even play as a team. Scum hates townies trusting each other, a townsquad is extremely unomfortable for scum, except if a scum gets in. Haven't been burned by it yet, and keeping my eyes open to hopefully not have that happen here either.

Neither of you suspect the other and also neglect to mention your out-of-game relationship until today, which I imagine mafia doing both while reviewing their posts overnight in a preemptive way to speak on their image before the town brings it up.

Your memory fails you, Kise.
First of all, there's no reason to bring up an out of game friendship out of the blue. We're playing mafia, and evaluating each other on this plane. It was obvious from our posts, I would think, that we had played together before and have meta from each other. The rest isn't terribly relevant here.
Second of all, we didn't bring it up spontaneously today. You asked. You got an aswer.
Which you proceeded to downplay/forget after a bit. You got answered again.
And now you are presenting bringing this up

before

anyone asks as

our tactics

devised during the night.
Yup.

A note: your scum suspects are based almost exclusively, as far as I can see, on relation to Neto.
A negative relation to Neto, however, doesn't seem to influence your reads as far as I can see from the surface.

You saying we are scum together because we were pestering you for content close in time on D2 doesn't jive as honest scumhunting to me.
Let's not forget that it took you 10 days and until after the hammer to get started posting content.
Let's not forget it's a Very Bad Thing to have a near to blank slot for 2 whole game days.
Let's also not forget that at least kiku and Elli were also pestering you on it. Probably others too, but I'm not gonna go looking for it.

I shall look at the rest of the new turmoil in the afternoon.

[Ojanen]

Ok, I don't like that so much, Budja.
Up to where are you in your reread?
More indepth contnt is vital.
Also, you can call me Oj.

[Ojanen]

Farside and Serial, well aaargh.
I feel so stupid saying that I find farside town and Serial probtown because at this point I'm saying it from just about everyone except Kise and possibly Scigatt and there's something not jiving with my reads.
But then I look at you two and I just do. I can't help it, I just do.
Argh.
Serial, the 24h pressure wasn't unreasonable to me, something needed to happen, a kick in the butt when everyone is waiting is healthy, the threat itself isn't scummy to me, although potential lingering votes and long-term stuff could be but that isn't the case here.
Farside, I think your paranoia is genuine, being unpredictable can be an asset. You have called out the same 4 people in different orders after abandoning pursuing me. But I can see how the

Ok.
I guess I need to write a general note about Neto relations as a reply to farside to clear anything up.
The reason I'm not overtly eager to jump off

purely

from the connections to Neto like some (Kise comes to mind) are intent to is this: this is a friends and enemies setup, and scum is devious.
There are at least 2 very, very simple things that scum might think they benefit from regards to defending town:
1) creating false connections
2) making others potentially more wary to attack them early in fear of hitting masons
( 3) towncred later but that's for patient people)
Defending scum as scum happens too and has short term benefits, but mostly scum pussyfoot around it or have another distinct character about it which I won't mention here.
So I note the relations and defences, but I also try to look for the individual reads. Also, the type of connection I find scummy is necessarily not the most obvious one, quite often even the contrary.

having said that, my opinion about the case:

I pointed to this and I commented the flaws on his logic.
However you can't ignore the following points against Hewitt
1. he was at L-1 when neto talked about hammering him
2. neto voted for eli instead of hewitt on that same page
3. neto never writes a case against hewitt or interacts with him in regards to the case
4. once neto lynch starts to come about hewitt comes back into be more vocal about neto lynch
5. finally I looked at budja's post these last few days and he has definitely been around posting so his lack of post/reading here since Monday pushed my views a bit too

1. and 2. is a scumtell and the most valid point against hewitt, and what gives me most doubt.
However hewitt wasn't L-1 when Neto voted Elli, DLA had unvoted. When he was L-1 Neto would have been quickhammering had he voted right away since he had missed a couple of days of mafiascum and the whole hewitt momentum just prior (checked his overall posting history, yeah, didn't post anywhere).
3. True.
I don't remember exactly anymore, but I do think the pressure switched to CSL soon and hewitt was semi-forgotten. Neto did continue for the rest of the day to harp ABR about a case on hewitt, demand to see the reasons (which had been already written out as a wallpost), so Neto would have had to miss a case on his scumbuddy/not mind getting anti-hewitt content out again.
4. he's was blatantly against it all until after the fake hammer and had a townread on Neto for most of the day.
The post-fake-hammer posts saying he doesn't get the Neto lynch at all read as very town to me in those specific circumstances... I expect to be a minority here.
The points against Neto that Albert asks hewitt to write make me more unsure.
5. I loved that he read the first 30 pages right away and had that thought about DLA and picked out the exact same farside post as I had in my mind to find both of you townish - not an obvious scummind proceeding.
I hate that he's stalling now, and I didn't have any reason to especially like his second post.

All in all, a Budja lynch wouldn't be a disaster, he could be scum, but I...he just persistently feels not scum, there are all these arguments and I can see them as valid and I go over him. But I just notice how I'm strongly expecting him to flip town.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong and an idiot and costing the game but it just feels wrong...
I support heartily a Kise wagon over him but as I said, don't consider a Budja lynch a disaster.
In my weird worldview, the only thing that Kise has done that looks even remotely townish is trying to get hewitt modkilled, with the proviso that hewitt is town, because I can't see that benefiting him, except if he thought at first the game would go to night but I remember it didn't look like that.
Nothing else is remotely convincing to me. And every single other person looks more town in different ways.
I might write more about Kise a bit later again.

----
@KISE

My feelings that they are mafia is more confident than the bad feelings I got from DLA.

Do you still have bad feelings about DLA and the way he goes about scumhunting?

[Ojanen]

There's something vaguely painfully entertaining in watching Serial and farside interact, btw.
I dunno why I'm blurting this out, except that it makes me giggle out loud when I'm not frustrated.

I think those bad feelings are because I just don't favor his playstyle even though I'm not sure if his alignment has an influence. I have a nagging belief that he's town despite his "eccentricity."

But those bad feelings still linger?

And townies are uncomfortable with unwarranted public trust. If you say SC is town, then that's your belief. Stick to it.

Huh?
You're uncomfortable with public trust, so... I should stick to it no matter what and not give a possibility for reevaluation?
This makes zero sense, it's in fact a contradiction. Also I don't see your reason to call it only towards me and serial, you don't seem to have a problem with my other loony townreads.

A note: your scum suspects are based almost exclusively, as far as I can see, on relation to Neto.

And then some. As a reminder, I told you I'm not going to wait around for common scumslips or the sort because I give SC credit when he's scum. We were both town in a large theme game recently and something just feels different about him here. Could be because he was a PR last game. I got a bad feeling about you and SC, and it's easy to pardon it by saying you two played a few games with each other, etc. Why does that eliminate the possibility that you're both mafia here?

Which large theme, btw?
The Neto relation the reasoning you've talked about.
I'm not waiting for scumslips either, as I've told you.
You're going rounds and rounds with the argument of the 2 of us, but noone has ever spoke about it eliminating anything, you're the one constantly bringing it up, and the reasons to pair us are weak.

Also, if we're both scum again, why on earth are you voting Budja?

Let's not forget it's a Very Bad Thing to have a near to blank slot for 2 whole game days.

This reads like scum, as opposed to bored townies, how? And actually, I don't know about Yarmond but it was already reported that Kitty had connection issues.

Sigh, context, sigh. You said it was suspicious we were both pestering you for content. I say it's undisputably pro-town to pester content from a near blank slot.
As for flaking itself, Yarmond's was was null. KittyMo more hard to judge because of the timing of Neto lynch coinciding.
Some hardcore process of elimination, D2 dynamics and above all none of your reads ringing true at all springs you to the scummiest person alive.

[Ojanen]

Ojanen, who is Kise's scumpartner?

You're gonna hate this, but I haven't given up on the thought of Scigatt. Abbreviation's not clear.
Failing that, it's bloody hard. DLA? I dunno. Noone feels like scum .

[Ojanen]

DLA, you sadden me.
That hop was suspicious, where did it come from?
(Content later.)

[Ojanen]

I'll respond here either in a bit if I'm awake or tomorrow morning (it's late in Europe), but Kise, could you tell more exactly in which way SC feels different to you compared to the large theme you mentioned?

[Ojanen]

But those bad feelings [about DLA] still linger?

Yeeeeees. Why do you ask?

Because this turn of phrase+lingering bad feel doesn't feel genuine:

His opinions come across as genuine (from the heart) and not from the mindset of scum wanting to meet their objective hastily.

You're uncomfortable with public trust, so... I should stick to it no matter what and not give a possibility for reevaluation?
This makes zero sense, it's in fact a contradiction.

There are 2 goons, 1 mason, and 5 vanilla townies left. The VT's don't know who's town. The mason has no one to talk to. The goons will be the only two working together in some way to get this day how they want it. So with 2 goons confirmed to each other and 6 town who don't know each other, do you now see why I have questioned the way you're riding beside SC often?

Oh, that's clear (although not what I was replying to), but I'll tell you what is reads as.
I have had a townread on Serial since catchup, he expressed one on me after my Neto case. We have both also separately expressed townreads to other people. Serial is convinced Scigatt is town, for example. I have a bucketload of inflation suffering townreads.
Now, there seems to be something quite obviously friendly between me and him, and there's very obviously some meta right since my first post where I apologize for getting in a game with him again. This type of obvious friendliness in thread has absolutely no added benefit to scumbuddies. Obvious and unnecessary relation of some kind. You jumping on it continually and repeatedly reducing the answer makes me question your motives, since it's an easy thing to see yet actual motives for scum-scum would seem null, in most cases almost something to intuitively shy away from.

Also I don't see your reason to call it only towards me and serial, you don't seem to have a problem with my other loony townreads.

Your townreads shouldn't be loony if you really believe in them.

That was self-ironical language, they aren't loony to me.

It's weird that you don't suspect/vote me until SC does. Of course this is going to stick out to me because you're picking sides essentially.

I'm pretty sure that is factually false but I'm too tired to check.

You said it was suspicious we were both pestering you for content. I say it's undisputably pro-town to pester content from a near blank slot.

Or scum going for easy pickings because they know the blank spot won't bark back. Probably would have turned into a lurker-lynch down the road (not that I disagree with lynching lurkers before lylo).

Well, if you're gonna make the convenience argument then I say first that it's much easier to make good-looking arguments on people who were present and had a positive relation to Neto (if I was scum with Serial there would be targets like DLA and Budja to pick on D2 and today).
And second it did take you the whole game day, and certifiably also dead town among others asked you for content, so it's hard to see how the 2 of us also pestering you makes us look like scumbuddies to you.

none of your reads ringing true at all springs you to the scummiest person alive.

So because you have town reads on hewitt and SC, etc., mine is wrong?

No. The argumentation hasn't rang townish to me. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean they're scummy.

Noone feels like scum .

OJ, during day 1, what was it that made you think your vote on Neto put him at L-1?

I don't understand this question.
I remember putting the third vote on Neto and have never thought I put him to L-1.

Meh, Sorry. >.< I've been looking through Hewitt's games without drawing any real conclusions yet...all I can say is that emotional outbursts are not indicative of town for him at all...
Do none of you guys find the beginning stats Saber put up worrying at all? It keeps coming to me that it seems so ridiculously anti-saber to do something like that.

On hewitt, I haven't reread to see the tone but I remember him as having these big fights with White Castle in Open 131 as town (should be in my wiki). I have, as you know, some doubts about Saber but I'm not sure what we can do with a hopelessly empty slot currently.

That's some simple answering. I'll get back in this more tomorrow. Uncertainty clouds are painful.

BUUUUDJAAAAAA... we need you.

[Ojanen]

Oh, that's clear (although not what I was replying to), but I'll tell you what is reads as.
I have had a townread on Serial since catchup

That hasn't change in the slightest, or are you choosing not to change it?

Yes, it has been downgraded as I have said due to too many people looking town.
Sigh. I still do think he's probably town based on his play. I don't have a great scummeta from him - in all our ended games he's been town - but I've read scumplay from him to get a feel for what he's like. I wish I had more intensive scummeta. But his play and ideas still do feel like his town self here.

Kise, I'd really appreciate your answer on this one:

Kise, could you tell more exactly in which way SC feels different to you compared to the large theme you mentioned?

he expressed one on me after my Neto case. We have both also separately expressed townreads to other people. Serial is convinced Scigatt is town, for example. I have a bucketload of inflation suffering townreads.

Don't let Serial tell you who's town. You be the judge.

I'm not letting him tell me who's town. Your picture of me abandoning independent thought does not mirror the reality of what has been said in the thread.

Now, there seems to be something quite obviously friendly between me and him, and there's very obviously some meta right since my first post where I apologize for getting in a game with him again. This type of obvious friendliness in thread has absolutely no added benefit to scumbuddies.

You both attacked kiku, you both rallied for Shotty's death, you've defended SC at times, and I don't think I've seen you two disagree on matters up until today's phase [QT talking].

I've defended a lot of people at times (DLA, Budja, reads that I'm now also questioning more).
farside, kiku, Elli, Scigatt, DLA also rallied for Shotty's death (I'd say I was a minor player in that, also, which is not a townish thing but the access was stopping me.)
DLA and Shotty also attacked kiku. I had kiku as a scummy read since my very first content, that's not following.
The significance of QT talking baffles me since we would have both been in the game already on N1, and we didn't agree on everything D1.
Do you see why you cherrypicking us gives me the impression on it being based on us knowing each other?

It's weird that you don't suspect/vote me until SC does. Of course this is going to stick out to me because you're picking sides essentially.

I'm pretty sure that is factually false but I'm too tired to check.

Nah, SC voted for me and you waited about a week IRL before voting me. I've pretty much been your only scumread today IIRC.

Nah, if you talk about suspicion of you, check my posts. I had you as no.2 already before anyone else had posted on D3. It's a little hard to do much about Scigatt slot which used to be no.1 when it's empty and it's a really mixed read. Vote is true, I did infact only lay down my first vote long into the day.

Wait what!? You didn't say my reads weren't townish initially. You said they weren't true. Now I have to question how you know about truth when, in fact, you're saying 7 out of 8 players here are likely town.(?) If you're saying I'm not true/townish (to you, meaning this is a relative fallacy), then elaborate on an example of what it is I'm doing that's not true/townish so I can understand your view.

I said they didn't

ring true

.
ESL and all, I googled the meaning of this idiom now to see if I had miscommunicated and one of them was

to seem to be accurate or sincere

. I meant that, townish thought processes and so on.
I'll elaborate later.
Yeah, 6 out of 8 seem significantly townish to me and that tells me I'm very probably significantly wrong on someone, unless is Kise-Scigatt but naw... I just can't find clearly who.

I need to think about this game a little, feeling meh again.
I remember being crap at looking for pairs (the time when I correctly pinpointed that the 2 mafiosos are inside these 3 people and switched to the wrong one based on pairings put me off it, lol) but I think I should try it, maybe I've gotten better.

Because she's following you. I don't see you following her, on the contrary. (I'm still stuck on when Albert called you the mastermind of any team)

Serial followed me on the Neto momentum, for example, and we don't agree on everything. I've got to say that would have been a pretty stupid thing to do upon replacing in was I scum with both of them, btw. Save the one with the massive, massive CSL baggage turning around the lynch to the majorly more presentable and townish seen Neto? But to each their own, I suppose.

[Ojanen]

Serial, why were you salivating over the aspect of hammering on D1?

[Ojanen]

Err, prospect I mean.

[Ojanen]

Budja, have you played with Kise before?

[Ojanen]

I was trying to get a post up but I can't look at the screen.
I fell ill again, I can't believe this.
Hopefully the fever'll be down soon but patchy access until it does.
Seeing the deadline I'll try to make it tomorrow if I'm not completely vegetative.

[Ojanen]

Hi. I'm not ignoring. I was poisting in my other game first today, but intended to get here soon again, and the fever yesterday/rising again now is real. But I did delay opening this now. Because I feel bad about this one. Because it's. Just. Not. Making. Sense.
My gameview, that is.
I reread some today earlier. Specifically Serial's iso. And suddenly I had this hollow feeling. And I was thinking, my god, I could actually see him as scum, the surface feels town, but for many of the things there would be a scum motive, clearer than I had realized.
And I knew the flip flop was gonna make me attackable/scummy looking as hell whether he is town or scum. But I gotta keep it real and say what I think anyway.
Gah.
But I should look at hewitt/Budja once more too. Kise doesn't seem lynchable but I'll look at him once more too.
I don't know what I'm saying here. I'm kind of lost, maybe, and have a much deflated confidence about SC?
It sucks being lost.
And I have this thought that someone not being replaced around N1 is prob scum (that leaves DLA and SC).
Another, more detailed post in a bit. I'm kind of inconvenienced currently to one hand operating.

The slip isn't a slip to though me cause he's been saying it all day, regarding Scigatt confirmed.

(Send edit: getting ceazy with the whitescreening! Been trying to send this for a good while now.)

[Ojanen]

farside, no prob - just give me a couple more hours, I'll lay out what I have in thoughts. essentially I'm not that far from where you seem to be at in that. Whitescreening+fever+nose starting to bleed every 10 minutes+some pre-arranged calls=slow oj.

[Ojanen]

I thought it was obvious what you were referencing, in true Serial breadcrumbing style, but it seems it wasn't to others?

et tu, Ojanen?

turns knife

I am reading isos right now.
Noone inside the group that contains scum going after DLA is interesting, btw.
Is there any reason I've forgotten why Kise+DLA would seem unlikely?
I am at loss with the townreads so I'm arrempting pair-reading.
Still need a little time.

[Ojanen]

Funny to see later if I mindread Serial's code.
iautttsiapotfn.

I also used to think that scigatt is a part of the friendly nighttalkers.

Serial, my head isn't working that clear at the moment, sorry if you have to repeat, but: who do you think Budja is partners with?

[Ojanen]

Ok. We have still 3 days before deadline.
I am at renewed unrest about DLA, although he's not an obvious seeming scumpartner to Serial or hewitt/Budja.
I am not gonna switch my vote tonight.
If I had to do it right now between Budja and Serial it would be Budja, based on pairing possibilities inside Kise/DLA/Serial/Budja(/Scigatt).
The content I'm expressing right now is thinner than I'd like, but I need to rest.
Kise, I'm not ignoring your questions, I'll get to them tomorrow, looking at other stuff seemed more relevant.

[Ojanen]

Ah, what the hell. Couldn't sleep. Sorry for only semi-relevant stuff.

That was self-ironical language, they aren't loony to me.

So who are they looney to, then?

..ok, didn't think this was worth replying to. Generally it's a little deviant to have townreads on such a large percentage of players. Just colourful language relating to me feeling foolish about expressing it.

Kise, could you tell more exactly in which way SC feels different to you compared to the large theme you mentioned?

Nothing specific I can put my finger on. Seems like his demeanor is different is all.

No seriously, any adjectives or anything, in which way different demeanor? I'd be genuinely interested.

It seems like you suspect players a lot based on their inactivity. You had Shotty & kiku as scum reads since day 1 and stuck to your guns for most of day2 on those 2 being scum and everyone else as townish.

First point is just plain inaccurate. Yes, kiku and Shotty was who I was suspecting D2. I'm not sure how the second sentence relates to the first one, and if it doesn't what's the point.

The significance of QT talking baffles me since we would have both been in the game already on N1, and we didn't agree on everything D1.

Um, you both

were

here in the game by the time N1 came.. And when I mentioned QT earlier, I was hinting at a discussion you two may have had as scum N2 to tone down the buddying.

Yes, yes, Kise that was my point that we were both already in the game before N1 so I you hinting about a supposed attitude change N2 because of possibility if nighttalking because you were saying we were agreeing on everything pre-D3 seemed not accurate. So I pointed out we would have had opportunity to nighttalk already before, and that we didn't agree on everything D1.

Nah, if you talk about suspicion of you, check my posts. I had you as no.2 already before anyone else had posted on D3.

For inactivity alone, or was there something I said at the end of D2, or other reason? I think answering farside's question ties in with this.

Well this was from my sum up of stuff in beginning of D3:
"Looking at votecount end of D1, the 4 people off-wagon were Shotty, farside, hewitt and Kise's slot. Shotty's town, farside's I believe town, hewitt doesn't really fit scumbuddy behaviour either - if there was scum off-wagon, I'd definitively call it the Kise slot. PoE springs this slot high up to suspicion slot. Yarmond's silence was null though, looking him up he has 0 gameposts on mafiascum."
Since then there was a bunch of arguments between us. Blah. Just kind of feeling like you were trying to take advantage of the easiest possible avenues, like a supposed scum-scum link between me and Serial, or looking at the most obvious connections to Neto that can be seen, like Serial "admitting" to be bussing, or getting expressing scumreads on hewitt/Serial and connecting them as pairs to the first person who questioned your reasoning (hewitt-farside pairing for example). That kind of stuff.

Oh, and

I need to understand why he was #1 on your list [OJ].

There you go.
I'm no longer crazy about that, obviously.

[Ojanen]

Sleepless and defiant ugh.
It's not easy to see Serial scum with Kise, or DLA (or even Scigatt) scum.
It's not

that

easy to see Budja with them either, but it's easier.
I maintain strongly the possibility of Kise/DLA.
Elli, who's scum with Serial?
Since we seem to be fixed to picking from these sides, mine is

vote: Budja

Votecount should be now Budja L-1, Serial L-2.
I'm scared that Serial is scum since I can't seem to rely on my normal modus operandi in this game (resulting to irrational amount of townreads), and some of his actions can be read as self-preservational. But he feels wrong.
I'm scared because hewitt feels wrong too, but what can one do.

[Ojanen]

unvote

I will put a vote back on someone again tonight, probably Budja if the dynamics don't change otherwise.
Just feeling uncomfortable.

[Ojanen]

Blah.

vote: Budja

(don't ask.)

[Ojanen]

DedicatedScribe,Vanilla Townie, shot night 3

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

QFT.
Also, a huge lol for myself for getting owned so bad (here's hoping tragi will stay out of that comedy).
I haven't reread very much in the night, will do so and post later today.

[Ojanen]

Oj, did you see an example of Serial using that type of breadcrumbing before? Or someone else? I'm curious how you knew what he meant.

I think it's a fairly known easy way of bottling up a message for future on mafiascum to use the first letters of each word. It's hard to remember specific instances. One that did come to my mind was that Bridges&Baloons used it somewhere in Tofu mafia. I've taken it to be more like this general part of mafiascum culture. If it's important to you I can try to strain my memory to remember more specific instances, I skim a lot of games I don't play in for fun which makes it hard to pinpoint to specific memories of posts in specific games.
When someone claims a townread on another player in this setup and codes instead of saying why, the first logical thought is that they think said player a mason. Looking at Serial's code as an answer to Scigatt suspicion, it ended in the letter combination "siam" which is an obvious instant association to "Scigatt is a mason" in the context.
It makes more sense to not be so direct and not use the first but for example the second letter of each word but the sentence starting with "Itt" brought the immediate association to the super common

In this thread

I think that.
Yeah, that was roughly the thought process. I think I had several guesses on what the remaining couple of letters in the middle were but overall his code seemed clear.

Who is Budja paired to, in your opinion?

Do you mean was?
I think I could see him more easily paired to you at that point; I think looking at scumpairs with Serial or Budja had the illusion to me that both were not so easy to see but Serial was harder.

Blah.

vote: Budja

(don't ask.)

Um...

I think this is taken from the point when I took my vote off for some hours and then put back before others came back?
Well I never was very comfortable voting for Budja. I only switched my vote from you when the situation had been deadlocked to them by the rest of the town for a while. I mean if Budja's the last scum with Serial, my play was good for the single part of being effective D1 and getting Neto lynched and I've been horribly wrong about most things ever since. Quite clearly my worst townplay ever if that's the case. But I didn't feel good about Budja-scum, I think there's a post in my iso that's a reply to farside about the things I liked and the things in didn't like about the hewitt case. I had lost confidence about Serial-town too. I was looking at them again, felt equally miserable about my gameview, decided again that ok, Budja is the better lynch since I could see him somewhat better as scum with people, thought about a couple of things that seemed inconvenient to hypo-Serial-scum (barracading suspicion on Scigatt on that day, going after silent people D3 based on patterns resulting to less convincing cases, looking worse for it and matching my meta while doing it) and just thought fuck it and revoted.

[Ojanen]

Yeah looks like I don't have energy to reread today as much as I wanted today, it's late in my timezone.
The very late developments of D3 I haven't relooked at among other things, but Budja would seem to be the obvious choice for scum before that.
It's incredibly hard for me to see farside, Elli or DLA as scum, I should check Kise once more but the steering by Serial to go from writing out justification to suspecting hewitt to easily voting Kise would paint out hewitt-scum, plus the early supposed bussing of Kise and Serial just before the night would have been a little strangely binding for two people that are gonna be able to nighttalk in a sec for the first time.
And Serial's earlier comments about hewitt paint a connection. Says in his catchup that hewitt's not a bad lynch but gives no reason why. Later day 2

I don't get DLA going over to Hewitt. I don't think that Albert actually believed Hewitt based on the claim, because quite frankly I don't see much reason why scum would claim mason - it's demonstrably false and if it even required a counter claim (a 3-man voting block and no other masons coming forward would surely prevent that), all it does is expose a mason, which is hardly fantastic for scum. But whether that was his reason or not, Albert deifnitely seemed to dismiss Hewitt as a possibility for scum, and I'm going to trust that read. Plus Neto was shaping up to hammer Hewitt wasn't he?
Having said that, I'd like Hewitt to get in here, his lack of activity is a contrast to yesterday.

Defends hewitt not-scum for no reason except ABR's read, even though had to belittle ABR's read of self posthumously.
Also tries to connect me to hewitt.
Plus the stuff that connects hewitt to Neto.

He does fit well and I really hope he's scum - even if you end up lynching me first we should win merrily then and my connection to Serial doesn't matter. But I'll reread some more tomorrow just in case any other thoughts seem plausible after all.

[Ojanen]

Yeah looks like I don't have energy to reread today as much as I wanted today, it's late in my timezone.
The very late developments of D3 I haven't relooked at among other things, but Budja would seem to be the obvious choice for scum before that.
It's incredibly hard for me to see farside, Elli or DLA as scum, I should check Kise once more but the steering by Serial to go from writing out justification to suspecting hewitt to easily voting Kise would paint out hewitt-scum, plus the early supposed bussing of Kise and Serial just before the night would have been a little strangely binding for two people that are gonna be able to nighttalk in a sec for the first time.
And Serial's earlier comments about hewitt paint a connection. Says in his catchup that hewitt's not a bad lynch but gives no reason why. Later day 2

I don't get DLA going over to Hewitt. I don't think that Albert actually believed Hewitt based on the claim, because quite frankly I don't see much reason why scum would claim mason - it's demonstrably false and if it even required a counter claim (a 3-man voting block and no other masons coming forward would surely prevent that), all it does is expose a mason, which is hardly fantastic for scum. But whether that was his reason or not, Albert deifnitely seemed to dismiss Hewitt as a possibility for scum, and I'm going to trust that read. Plus Neto was shaping up to hammer Hewitt wasn't he?
Having said that, I'd like Hewitt to get in here, his lack of activity is a contrast to yesterday.

Defends hewitt not-scum for no reason except ABR's read, even though had to belittle ABR's read of self posthumously.
Also tries to connect me to hewitt.
Plus the stuff that connects hewitt to Neto.

He does fit well and I really hope he's scum - even if you end up lynching me first we should win merrily then and my connection to Serial doesn't matter. But I'll reread some more tomorrow just in case any other thoughts seem plausible after all.

[Ojanen]

Quick question to Ojanen & Budja: Even at the risk of exposing them, have you see a mason claim/softclaim at all? If so, when and where?

Wtf? Why the hell would I answer this?

I'm looking to finish the reread tonight.

[Ojanen]

Wasn't expecting a farside kill.
All right guys.
The sucky reality right now is that despite universal suspicion I am not scum.
You need to let me speak before anyone quickvotes, there are things I want to say in my defence. If you won't let me do that the lose to the town among you is earned since it costs you nothing to not vote someone right away.

Also, we can either now have an endgame with 4 people and the mason claiming, or no lynch and get the information of the scum's choice and have a shot at a 3-man andgame with a mason alive.
No lynch would seem the far superior choice to me at this point.

vote: no lynch

I've gotta run right now to the airport.
I will post a bigger post tonight, unless no lynch has been hammered before.

[Ojanen]

I now officially hate blizzards. That was the second cancelled flight in a row with me stuck in transit.

You're assuming the mason won't get Nked...

No I'm not.
I think it's very possible the mason will get nightkilled, that's why I said we have a

shot

at the mason surviving.
But I think it could be rather informative who the scum would choose, and I think there's a chance they choose wrong, and a confirmed inno in a 3-man endgame is more powerful than in a 4-man one.
If they choose right, we will lose the mason's input unless we talk more extensively already before the proposed no lynch but I don't see much else we would lose.

Correct me if my thinking is wrong and where.

More in a bit. Wanna walk around now that I'm stuck here.

[Ojanen]

Wasn't expecting a farside kill.

Who were you expecting?

Someone I thought looked more like a mason, not elaborating obv.
Ugh need to delay posting to tomorrow, extremely low on time for the next 12 hours but will say what I wanted to after that. (the cancelled flights kida messed up my weekend.)

[Ojanen]

I guess my position on the no lynch business is summed up by this: mason claims today and we have 1 confirmed inno. We no lynch and we will have the confirmed inno as a dead slot anyway plus a possible very valuable second inno if the mason isn't nightkilled, plus I think the scum's nk choice would be interesting info.
It's clear to me beyond any shadow of doubt we should no lynch instead of lynching today.

I am going to post some stuff since the undercurrent seems to be mostly one that wants to lynch me here and I don't feel like taking it quietly in lylo.
I don't remember any of you mentioning anything except the link to Serial as to why you think I'm scummy, so that's what I'm going to address. If there's something else, let me know.

Basically there seems to be these components: I defended Serial, we shared similar opinions and I was friendly to him.
Friendliness is easy as it's obvious rubbish as a scumtell. There's absolutely no special advantage for scum-scum to be friendly to each other in-thread, often rather the opposite. Neither Serial or I (or most of anyone on site) are such bad players that blatant buddying would just leak out of our posts due to having no control on hiding alignment and teammates.
We are, however, actual friends, and for a large part of the thread I had an unfortunate probtownread on him (which I thought was an unbiased read, not sure anymore but can't change the past). Occam should apply to why friendliness is null.
As to sharing similar opinions and defending him, obviously I did that a fair bit. Because I thought he was probtown, and because he's often an excellent scumhunter when he's town I did listen to what he said and partly agree, and we ended up pursuing some similar stuff often enough.

Newbie 764
Open 131
High life mafia
Mafia 105
Quick and dirty mafia
Amished village

This is every scumgame I've ever played, bar one that I played as part of a hydra.
Anyone familiar with my meta would know that it would be extremely, ridiculously, out-of-mindedly unusual for me to have an obvious positive link to a scumbuddy as with Serial. They would tell how I am when I'm scum: stressed, using very reasonable and convincing enough arguments to guard myself pre-emptively from attacks, almost overcompensating. Because that's what I do, overcompensate. I have nervously bussed often quite early. I have

never

, as far as I can remember, explicitly defended a scumpartner of mine, although I have subtly derailed. When a scumbuddy of mine has been lynched, I don't think I've

ever

been off wagon.
Even in my newbie game I bussed my partner getting under a wave I thought was rising as first vote on lynch wagon, and this on D1. I won't bore you with detailed descriptions, but I have consistently bussed and never truly defended.
In Amished village we thought we might auto-lose due to a jailkeep-thing if my partner was lynched D2 which looked likely so we delayed staging a big fight to D3 and the wagons did turn. Even there I didn't defend him or obviously derail, more like pussyfooted around it. But check what I wrote in the daytalking topic to see I'm not making this up:

Yeah, sorry to be a pessimist but the situation is kinda bad. No real case against you but you still look like a pretty likely lynch.

Under normal circumstances I would bus hard even without the case.

Gimme a sec, I'll think about the wagons.

Regarding anything I've ever done in the past, a huge and obvious surface link to a scum would absolutely not be a scumtell to me at all. Regarding 100% of my past actions it would be the totally contrary to anything I've ever done as scum.
On the other hand, I have vehemetly defended and gotten linked to people I thought were town as town (they've always been so before this though, lol, sigh, that's probably why I had gotten reckless).
This argument is usable only once, because expressing it explicitly and publicly here will make it go down too deep in WIFOM kingdom for future games. But I have never used it before, I have never been in trouble as town for my own play before and it is true and checkable.

Dammit guys! I am not scum here.

Kise, such certainty is arrogance to the nuances of playing mafia and you're wrong. Check Elli in mafia 108 if you want to lose sleep. Possibility of concrete info is not to be thrown away.

[Ojanen]

Booo-ring! Boo scum. At least this validates that scum didn't like slimming down the pool, whatever the concerns expressed were yesterday.
Well, 5 turns just comes back to our move.

[Ojanen]

LA

, I'll try to be here latest tomorrow

[Ojanen]

I'm still really busy, will be out of access tomorrow again.
Anyway.
I think draws are lame.
It seems rather likely that you guys mislynch me. I*d rather try to find and lynch the last scum than go for draw despite that, because a draw seems a little pointless somehow. But I guess it's better than lose.
It is very hard for me to see scum motivation for DLA to advocate a draw though. I would expect convincing Elli and Kise to vote me to not seem very hard from his perspective if he was scum .
I guess we should make a choice now. If we go for draw, we should do nothing and hammer no lynch. If we go for lynching, I think the mason among us claiming would be the way to make the situation cobsiderably less foggy. But if they claim, there's no way back to draw. I dunno.

[Ojanen]

Umm. We should either have a mason claim now or a night now but under no circumstances both imo, that would be just a waste.

[Ojanen]

Since Kise started, I think mason claim should then be done.
If he's not scum, it would be too easy for DLA/Elli to nk the mason as the non-self, non-Oj one. Since I think it's quite obvious I'm not a mason.

[Ojanen]

Elli, did you think Kise was the mason?

[Ojanen]

I don't really understand no lynching now.

[Ojanen]

Ha! I thought since N2 reread Elli was the mason because of D2 play but got more uncertain since D4 when farside and Kise were referencing some breadcrumb I had no idea about.
All right.
Kise, why on earth did you vote no lynch after mason claim stuff happening?
DLA, how could you think Elli was scum when me and Kise had already claimed not mason and from your perspective Elli was the only possible mason?

I'll have concrete scumhunting soon, got ideas but need to back them up by some reread.

[Ojanen]

No, the opposite, I made a case on Scigatt beginning of D3.
I deciphered Serial's code, and my code said that I also

used

to think Saber was a mason (I think Albert referred to him as his minion somewhere and summoned Saber's bandwagoning sometimes).
Start of D3 post says

I used to think saber town. There's aggression from Neto to Scigatt slot, but despite that upon reread I actually find this slot quite scummy. Case in next post.

But I had reread and saw the change in your playstyle to D2 and kiku had said Albert told you to lead the town and you defending kiku and so on, and also D1 patterns fitting and thought it seems very likely you're the one.
Me thinking you were a mason shines through a little bit here in that same post in the "should be listened to" part, but didn't obviously really reference that thought publicly.

The guy is smart and should be listened to.

[Ojanen]

Anti-prod; should have ideas layed out by tonight.

OJ, were you intentionally searching for the mason?

Not actively, I never went searching for the breadcrumb you were referencing for example. Elli was just a thought that came at the time and made a lot of sense.

Kise, why on earth did you vote no lynch after mason claim stuff happening?

Could you answer this?

[Ojanen]

Sorry, was delayed with everything and I'm sick for the nth time this winter; the content will come in 12 hours or so after I wake up tomorrow.

[Ojanen]

I've been trying to write out this post for a while now. I'm sorry, I can't do as much as I wanted right now. I'm aarghingly sick again, and tomorrow is quite a big day to me that needed a lot of preparation.
I wish I had an easy answer but from the time I've managed to scrape up to review things, I don't yet.

Serial normally does not like to bus, he thinks it's powerful but he doesn't like doing that to his teammates. That would point to DLA over Kise. I'm a bit worried he could have had a different mindset (stage a fight) here due to always carrying so much suspicion.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it might seem overly dramatic to you, but I've played this entire game with the dagger of damacles hanging over my head waiting for it to drop.

The sentence is slightly oxymoronous, but scum does often mix true feelings to text.
What worries me about Kise is that despite the very mutually suspecting language between him and Serial, Kise never ever votes Serial until the hammer, he goes off to hewitt slot the whole day.
He mentions the point he later votes hewitt for in his very first content post - the whole situation with Neto and L-1, then proclaims that SC is almost certainly scum and sees himself as pursuing Serial hard, and they fight, but then goes back to hewitt vote for original content post reasoning, and talks a couple of times about voting Serial (in the lines of "player x, would you vote Serial with me") but doesn't actually convert until end. And the wagon situations don't really explain that to me.
Serial does not return that favour though; he goes for Kise, and doesn't switch when the opportunity is first offered to him on a silver plate - elli asks what he would think on lynching hewitt instead of Kise.
First fluffs

I think kise is the better lynch, but possibly because I've been pushing him for a long time. I'd be up for a hewitt lynch if the consensus was to he was scummier than kise though.

But then, when Kise brings up older points again,

Part of the motivation for me wanting to lynch Kise over Hewitt is that he's constantly bringing this sort of stuff up that is old and dealt with. Rather than asking DLA, why don't you either a) read my comments directly after that where I show my reasons why that case isn't a good one, or b) actually go do the work yourself rather than calling DLA out to back up a case he made weeks ago.
So I know it's not a good reason to lynch one person over another, but every time Kise posts I get exasperated and I'm SURE it's coming from scum. I get what you are saying Elli, but at the moment there is still more support for a Kise lynch and I think it's a better one for me, so that's where I'm staying for now.

Which would be quite extreme bussing coming from Serial - the situation at that time was
SerialClergyman (1): DarklightA
Hewitt (2): Kise, Elli
Kise (2): Ojanen, Serial
Not Voting (3): Farside, Hewitt, Scigatt

Of course, in the end he switches but at that point it's not a momentum-sensitive point anymore.


What worries me on DLA - well, no real aggression from Serial, and Neto's quasi defence has some similarities to treatment of CSL, and obviously I was totally wrong on what that meant so I dunno.
The Budja hammer is iffy, his only post of the day, unsure but sure rhetoric with quickhammer.
(Kise goes with the flow too though - first he seems to think I have less credit than Budja but then he votes Budja without much prodding)
He pursues Serial early D2 actively, thinks he's obvscum, then switches.
It's really hard to follow his thought processes, an example

I'm inclined to continue my pressure on SC.

vote SC

I still have my money on SC.

I don't know.. I still think SC is a better bet than Kise.

I actually think SC might be town.. Neto defended him a bit too much. In that case, there may be a scum who has fooled us all..

unvote

changing one's mind is normal but he's really impenetrable as to what the triggers are, Neto obvdefending Serial was a huge part why he thought Serial was scum all along and then bam. (he does go back to Serial after this episode, through a Kise vote first)

I've thought DLA was relatively townish all game and thought Kise was scummy all game. But I've had a fair share of wrong calls lately, quite distrustful of the value of those reads now.

Talking about the draw earlier and not going after me doesn't seem scummy from DLA, which has me scratching my head.

Ok this post is quite useless since it just highlights me fence-sitting argh and some meta monster might enforce the idea from that that I'm scum.
I haven't had enough time to really relook at the thread to make what I would consider an informed call yet but I layed out some thoughts now since everything seems to be hanging from waiting for me at the moment. I've erased and rewritten this sentence now several times, stating which one of them I'm leaning more currently, but I basically should just admit I am not sure atm. I could simplify to this: gut leaning more Kise, head leaning more DLA.

@OJ - To see if who I think is mafia was waiting to figure out the last mason before they made a nightkill. DLA wasn't being productive as it was. One day he hates someone, the next day he loves them. One minute he's not sure who scum is and votes no lynch, the next minute he's made a town list and scum list. One minute he wants a draw, the next minute he doesn't. Kinda wish he rode with me calling him the mason so we could in fact see whether he'd be killed or not. The plus side of that would be that he's not the mason and we'd have Elli to confirm himself so things could be easier.

I don't really understand.
After me and you claimed not mason, you outed what you thought was a DLA mason breadcrumb, and then voted no lynch. You think I'm scum so you tried to catch me then by me trying to go for no lynch despite having explicitly spoken against that+mason claim just a bit earlier?
Or you wanted to get rid of DLA who seemed too erratic for you?
You'd actually wanted DLA to fakeclaim, when you seem(ed) to think he's town anyway, with a mason faced with a choice whether to counter?

[Ojanen]

Day 1, OJ posted her scumreads and voted Neto without even mentioning why she felt he was scummy in that same post.

SC is cool with it

and he tells people not to lynch Neto until OJ can write another post about her scummers.
OK.
But KittyMo posted her scumreads with Neto at the top (same as OJ), tells everyone not to hammer until she can post again,

yet SC feels the need to ride my ass all game about it

?
Wat?
Kitty and OJ practically did the same thing. You have a meatier post, OJ. Sure. But that's due to explaining who you felt was town,

not

those on your scumlist. You didn't go over why your suspects were scummy, much like KittyMo. SC bitched about Kitty going for an easy target or whatever by listing Neto at the top. He didn't even give her a chance.

I just woke up today with this game in my mind thinking that I'm silly, it's probably DLA, Serial was really just too eagerly over Kise.
But this case is an absolute mess of wtf.

Kise, in my first content I posted townreads and namelist who was scum, and voted for Neto, was interrupted so didn't explain yet but said I would in a couple of hours.
I came back

3 hours later

to write the wall of text against Neto.
Serial had not even posted in that time. In fact he didn't post until Neto was quite quickly (fakely) at L-1, at which post he was eager to get the bussing in.
What I didn't get the chance to elaborate on was why I thought kiku and shotty were suspicious to me.
You are basically saying that kitty writing a namelist of suspects and me writing a catchup in two parts a couple of hours apart with a wall of post against my top suspect makes me scum because I didn't elaborate on my second and tertiary suspects and that is equal to Kitty's reasonless list later and Serial treated those two approaches differently.
That is just a lot of wtf.

I'll think through your answer about DLA in a sec.

[Ojanen]

I grant the farside kill being an ok point.
The other stuff assumes quite transparent scumplay.

[Ojanen]

DLA, can you tell the specific triggers after saying draw would be fair and before being confident on Kise scum that led you to the conclusion?

I will be done with my rereading by tomorrow night to post my call.

[Ojanen]

I am fucking blind. Fucking BLIND.
So I had finally the time I needed.
I just looked at the relevant workings of D1 again, holy shit did I need that context with all the flipped people in place.
I have sucked so bad in this game that I'm just literally grinning compulsively at my stupidity right now. God I suck at mafia. Blind. Blind.

It's DLA. Kise doesn't even need to do his entrance, the trio makes complete sense in context. I dunno if it's the fact that I had a bout of scum pms before this game to make me sink knee deep in wifom every time scum did these obviously scummy and benefiting things because I overcompensate in such quantities myself but dammit. I've been senseless.

Some of the things I can show you to see why DLA is scum and I am a fucking idiot rather than scum.
For example, DLA's take on Neto.

DLA, why have you not included Netopalis in your read?

Sorry, I overlooked it.
Neto: Much information and contribution to the thread. Not really much bad about this player. Leaning towards town.

All right. Remember that game Neto referenced in the very beginning when DLA was getting early heat and he said DLA acts "extremely, extremely scummy as town" so logical leaps shouldn't be held against him?
It's this newbie game right here, Neto was scum, DLA was town.
Compare Neto's iso in that game to his early iso in this game. I find it very similar, certainly in the surface level "pro-towniness".
DLA's take on Neto in that game? Neto was his top suspect, because he saw Neto's posts in this light:

There's a difference between not posting much, and posting a lot, but with no content. The latter is often used by scum to gain trust among pro-towns, because of activeness.

Look at the above Neto read in this game. His calling of Neto town for the style of his posts here makes not the slightest sense in light of this meta, his call in the earlier newbie game that proved correct there.
Btw, at the time of his Neto vote, DLA says

Sure. I've actually changed to feel more of an if-Neto-is-scum-then-CS-is-scum than if-CS-is-scum-then-Neto-is-scum if you understand..

Yet he has never ever uttered anything negative about Neto, except echoing that Neto is defending CSL and therefore scum.

Neto's stances on DLA range on absurd.

In re: DLA argument, I said in the thread that I probably wasn't the best predictor of his flip due to the fact that we played together before, so I was being intentionally noncommittal because I didn't want that fact to adversely effect the town.

He is actually arguing that

because

he has meta on DLA, he is less likely to read DLA correctly
This seems almost slip-like - it only makes the slightest sense if DLA=scum with a scummy town meta.

Unvote, vote: ABR

He's not the best play today (That's DLA), but I want to use this vote to send a message that, well, I'd really like an answer to that question and to preserve my earlier reasoning about his possible scummishness.

Scum was in a tough corner almost the entire D1, with a longish time period of leading wagons CSL and DLA with hewitt as an option too. Neto posted this at one point during that period.
Neto never ever had elaborated for reasons why DLA would have been the best play. He said DLA is scummy as town and logical leaps are not a scumtell. He touched upon policy lynching at some point, and said he could vote DLA if it would not put him into danger, and moaned without substance ("I can't understand DLA's posts" type of style). And said e.g. this buddish thing:

Sure, I find it understandable that people are suspicious. I find farside suspicious. That's just life.

Can you do a bit better than this? Saying "Yeah, I'd find me scummy too" doesn't help us any....

And afterwards, when the biggest wave was passing, he never ever came close to voting DLA or bringing up points either.
The unceremonious forgetting of it happens already in Neto's very next post with a redirection

Unvote

I really am not looking to bandwagon ABR. My vote was just to accentuate a point. Since he seems to have completely ignored it, I guess it didn't work. I am getting suspicious of Saber, though, for his eagerness to hop onto that idea without putting in much thought.

(the next-next post is then a saber vote)

Then there's hewitt wagon stuff like this: DLA's very strongly on it. Pursuing hewitt for a good while vocally, coming in 4th on the wagon. At L-1 I think, he suddenly decides to drop it. Hewitt is scummy, and then bam he isn't. Let me show you the 2 posts hewitt posts that happen in the short time he changes his mind:

Since I AM at L-1 I would just like to state that if I am lynched ABR and DLA clearly need to go next, not necessarily in that order. I think a "town" that wouldn't lynch these two freshies after myself is a town that's definitely going to lose. And quite honestly, I would not mind if the town did lose. I don't even really care that it would count as a loss for me, it would probably just make me smile.

Oh yeah, and I'm a vanilla townie.

This is an incomprehensible trigger for a change of mind unless he gets scared of looking bad suddenly (and hewitt's claimed vanilla too). DLA at once goes:

I'm starting to retreat on Hewitt.. I think ABR went too far with this.

And

[...]

unvote; vote: Ellibereth

I don't like the the Yarmond Wagon

Defending a player who isn't here?? SERIOUSLY????

SCUM:
1. Ellibereth
2. Yarmond
3. ???
Anyway, I'm starting to think that hewitt might be town, and that ABR's pressure is the only thing making him making him seem scummy.

This makes even less sense since hewitt wasn't liking Yarmond wagon either earlier.

I only put a small part of the stuff that jumped from the page to me here, it's 3 AM. But it makes sense, I'm glad this game finally does reading it with all the flips in place, it's all the redirections, all the things making sense as distancing, ignoring etc, just the whole dynamics between each of Neto, CSL/Serial and DLA. If you need more to convince, I'll be happy to continue elaborating tomorrow.

vote: DLA

[Ojanen]

Just for the lulz, cause I vividly remember writing this in the middle of the night somewhere in Mongolia on D2

Also, no I don't want to lynch Serial or DLA blindly, thanks for listening, I have been very extroverted on my stance on them but I can shout it again:

I think DLA and SERIAL are prob town

Fucking BLIND

[Ojanen]

Ugh still awake.
Btw if you need further proof why this is an obvious redirection from needing to attack DLA as per logic of earlier post:

The unceremonious forgetting of it happens already in Neto's very next post with a redirection

Unvote

I really am not looking to bandwagon ABR. My vote was just to accentuate a point. Since he seems to have completely ignored it, I guess it didn't work. I am getting suspicious of Saber, though, for his eagerness to hop onto that idea without putting in much thought.

(the next-next post is then a saber vote)

then you can just keep in mind how many thousands of times saber had already bandwagoned for the sake of bandwagoning during D1 without Neto feeling no need to ever mention it until this point. I kid you not, he hadn't even brought it up.
(also I was wrong, it was not the very next post but a couple short ones down the line, which don't change the point though since they lead nowhere)

[Ojanen]

Where is everyone, except for the wordless unvote from DLA? Come on guys, I've come to my senses, let's get to lynching the scum
My internet is down at home probably until Monday and I can't access the stream of consciousness notes I put down while reskimming.
Because especially Kise needs to reevaluate, I'll put up some stuff regardless about DLA making so much sense as scum.

Both Serial and Neto noticeably protect him; there is really nothing they do regards to him that wouldn't make sense from a wifom-free scumplay.

These are all stances from Serial on DLA's scumminess or related things I found relevant, and haven't left out anything negative, DLA is fairly in the backround in Serial's commentary of the game.

DLA and saber are both too random to call. They look like lynchbait, especially with the suspicion they get.

Convenient.

4) Your case against DLA. I'll give you some points for this bit, because it was more extensive than I appreciated with my reread. But it is still against an EASY TARGET. Now, if you were a player to go after anyone who looked 'scummy' according to the dummies guide to mafia, you would be voting CSL, not defending him. So I know you have it in you to defend players who are new or bad, and I know you have it in you to criticise other players for going after bad or new players. But I also know that for almost the entire game, those are EXACTLY THE PLAYERS YOU YOURSELF ARE GOING AFTER.

Chainsawish attack on Shotty.

I don't know what to think about DLA. He has been unfairly classified as a VI when he's not, although his posting style is gruff and lacking in explanation at times. Shotty being very aggressive towards him on D1 makes him more likely to be town in my eyes.

I don't get DLA going over to Hewitt. I don't think that Albert actually believed Hewitt based on the claim, because quite frankly I don't see much reason why scum would claim mason - it's demonstrably false and if it even required a counter claim (a 3-man voting block and no other masons coming forward would surely prevent that), all it does is expose a mason, which is hardly fantastic for scum. But whether that was his reason or not, Albert deifnitely seemed to dismiss Hewitt as a possibility for scum, and I'm going to trust that read. Plus Neto was shaping up to hammer Hewitt wasn't he?
Having said that, I'd like Hewitt to get in here, his lack of activity is a contrast to yesterday.
DLA - Did you read Ojanen vs kiku? Do you have an opinion on Shotty?

Finally, his continuing to push the case on DLA smells bad. I really, really doubt that DLA is scum, and Albert's town flip should have shaken that belief more strongly.

So here's where the flaking stops and the free passes stop. I am almost entirely sure that the scum team is Kise and Hewitt. The only other play that makes sense is one of the less prolific people like farside and DLA being scum and fanning the flames, but I didn't get that impression yesterday and still have prob town reads on farside and DLA.

The only weird thing about DLA I remember was him arguing with me dramatically about Neto's defending me and showing no signs of taking what I was saying on board and then within a day had switched his vote to someone else.

This is very true - smart of Serial to bring it up himself a day later to diminish it.

I have ot admit I tend to just throw up my hands when I read some of DLA's posts, but we're getting to the pointy end of the game so I can't afford to keep being complacent.
I am stunned that DLA is voting between myself and Kise. It seems to me to show an inconsistent view of the game. But then this recent vote wasn't opportunistic - a case wasn't really rising against me or anything like that. So the only benefit it could have had is if he's partners with Kise, but then if he's partners with Kise why isn't he pushing Hewitt, and why was he voting Kise for a while there?
I don't think it's necessarily scummy but I have no idea what th thought processes are. Expand on your vote please.

Fluffs into can't comprehend but not necessarily scummy when people are suspicious of DLA's sudden hop on and off of Kise.
-----

Netopalis, well, he treats DLA on a somewhat similar manner to CSL.
One of the more interesting things is ignoring at first DLA 74 (small omgussy case against farside that DLA gets heat from). A bit of heat - Neto ignores - bit more - Neto ignores - bit more - Neto suddenly says what is in underlying quote no. 4, despite DLA saying nothing new except that he meant what he said in the case, and that delayed reaction pattern of behaviour is a rather good scumbuddy tell in my experience.

I also don't like Darklight's play in this game, but I know from a previous game with him that he acts extremely, extremely scummily as town.
I haven't played any other games with him, so he may be a bit better in others...but in that one, he played so scummily that we were able to lynch him even after he claimed doc...

No, I'm afraid not. I haven't researched his meta otherwise, all I know is that as town he tends to make logical leaps which aren't necessarily warranted.

ABR: I would assume so. My point is that illogical leaps alone should not be considered indicative of scumminess on his part.

DLA...ugh. I know that last time we lynched him for play like this and he was the doc, but his play is just so...terrible...ugh.

I will vote DLA if the vote count shows that it would not put him in the danger zone.
Essentlally, I find that the whole "lynch me if you want" mentality is used by scum primarily. Due to the fact that scum's goal is survival, it is a way for them to appear town by making it look like they're playing against their goal - or for the town one. Overall, I really don't like his posts - even given that I played with him before and I posted the stuff about his meta.

To encourage him to put up better posts.

Sure, I find it understandable that people are suspicious. I find farside suspicious. That's just life.

Can you do a bit better than this? Saying "Yeah, I'd find me scummy too" doesn't help us any....

DLA...Ugh. What a mass of incomprehensibility. Please, in a few sentences, restate what you were trying to say in English and not in Swahili, Greek, Japanese, Latin, Martian or whatever that last post was in.

it's incomprehensible, not scummy.

As for my not arguing strongly on DLA, that's honestly been because I have prior experience with him and I don't feel that my reads are that accurate for that reason. I'm going to be a lot more likely to find failtown than I will be to find scum within his posts because I framed him in the newbie game that we played. Therefore, I prefer to let those who are more neutral in regards to him lead the way. I'm happy to lynch him, of course - I just don't feel qualified to add a lot to this discussion

And so on and so on, this is the scummy funny argument of "I have meta, thus I am less qualified to evaluate him."
There's the fact that looking at the suspicion dynamics, for a good while it's between DLA and CSL and somewhat lingeringly hewitt for lynch candidates/wagon leaders. Neto decides to go neither way and goes off on this tangent of Albert voting, at one point simultaneously saying that DLA is actually the best play but he wants to pressure Albert and then completely forgetting he ever said that and chasing after saber. farside totally calls it btw.

Meh, I'm still keeping my vote on Saber. He's exhibited every scumtell in the book, far beyond the bounds of bad play. I played in a game recently with him, and while he was pretty bad...he wasn't THIS bad. I think we can distinguish the two games and say that he looks scummy anyway, but in games in which he actually is scum, he looks EXTREMELY scummy.

Why is it that whenever DLA did something scummy you kept pointing out a game he was lynched and was the doctor but knowing how badly saber plays and has been pointed out you still want to lynch him?

Gotta go for now. What do you guys think? These are only some of the obvious parts, I have more thoughts on DLA's play regards Serial and the DLA/CSL relationship I could hack out later when I have access again, how much convincing do you guys need? Please look carefully at the point I brought up in my enlightenment post about DLA's meta on Neto and the game they shared in September.
DLA's trust/non-questioning on Neto this game is really really contradictory to his actions in and knowledge from that game. I think it's quite damning.

[Ojanen]

Some more stuff for Kise on how DLA's actions make sense as scum with Serial and bussing then.

The trouble for them, once the flip happened, was that they were both quite connected to Neto.
I'll post a summary on one relevant bit.

D2 dawns. Serial starts off by directing attention/suspicion to Shotty, kiku and Kitty(=Kise). Serial and kiku argue.
DLA enters with a post

I hammered scum. What's the problem?

^^ that
-----

I highly doubt both scum were bussing.

Why?

Vote: Kikuchiyo

this, despite the fact that he had left off D1 accusing Serial.
-Scigatt comes in with a vote on Serial.
-Elli comes in with top suspects shotty and DLA.
-farside comes in with a vote on DLA and saying that CSL is also connected to Neto.
-Elli and kiku speculate that Neto wouldn't meta-defend both of the other scum so actively; kiku says it makes the choice all the more difficult. -farside expresses again could vote for either of DLA and Serial.
I pipe in with a post that I'm LA and put up 3 townies in my suspects list (if I'm right about DLA now), and there's some talk against Shotty but generally it's very much against DLA and Serial.
At this point DLA comes in again with

Sorry, I realize that I was illogical when I voted kik.. I would have hammered too..

unvote
vote: CS

Scummy play during the lynch plus the play during his conflict with the mason.

Can you see how reactional this looks it could be, looking at the momentums cooking up around them?
On the next page DLA pulls up quotes from Neto defending Serial and concludes

So, what do you guys think. I think that SC is obv-scum..

And next page Serial and DLA spend half a page arguing. Serial feigns great frustration.
Noise between me and kiku happens. The morning following the DLA/Serial arguing DLA comes back saying

Hmm.. The problem is that we're arguing with about 1/2 of the game as lurkers. Maybe we're all town..

and pulls up a late ABR post and votes hewitt (moreover, the majority of that quote would actually be incriminating towards CSL more than hewitt).
The next post we get from him features this, along with a scumlist that has Shotty and kiku at the bottom over Serial, and hewitt in the middle (hewitt suspicion didn't get echoed really):

I'm deciding to recide with SC, he seems to have a genuine reason, so I'm left with two. Shotty and Kiku.

Vote: Kikuchiyo

Please read page two leading up to page 32. Claiming that there's a chainsaw on page 2? Odd.

All the while the general pressure has derailed from DLA and somewhat from Serial.
kiku claims, DLA votes Shotty. Nothing more relevant until end of the day.

Can you see the dancing with the momentum, how it would have obvious scum motive?

Start the day attacking town, wait around a bit. Pressure concentrated relatively universally on either Serial or DLA and sometimes both. At that point bam, "wait, I would have hammered too actually", and vote Serial. Pull up the Neto quotes. Argue with him shortly and intensely; let him spell out a defence at the same time. Next morning switch directions. Momentum is moving to other directions too, never come back during the day to him.
It makes sense.

[Ojanen]

I saw that too
This is not the only time I've noticed he's lurking over Little Italy without posting since the unvote btw.

[Ojanen]

I hope Kise checks in soon to get certainty either way.
DLA, so my case against you changed your mind from being convinced it's Kise to stuck and leaning Oj?
In any case, can you remember on what gave you the townvibes on Neto on D1, DLA, as opposed to the game you had shared a month earlier with him?

[Ojanen]

Well it's a small grim satisfaction that I got this right but that doesn't seem to be close to winning the game yet.

Another DLA post that should make you cringe: his

only

post on the day Budja was lynched:

Sorry for the inactivity. I've been here, just not found anything to write

(...)

I'm kind of unsure here... Budja and Ojanen are definitely the most scummy, I feel.
With Kise coming next..

---

Oh, whatever.. Budja is definitely the most scummy.

Hammer Vote: Budja

The mother of all quickhammers.
And next day on innocent tones, while he was the one who had ended the day:

Ditto. No lynch is clearly the best for today. I just think we shouldn't jump through days. The previous day was a perfect example of that.

Look at today, btw.

Kise is scum.

Kise, please extend on that statement.
I've got a theory, but I'm holding it until after your post.

Okay, I'm convinced. Kise's post was just enough to make me understand.

Vote: Kise

And we are NOT having another night. Period.

Kise, the reason is that before I had no clue as to who was scum, but now it's quite obvious.

unvote

Sorry, kinda forgot about this game =P Had to start up open 206.
Anyway, I'm still stuck here, not sure who to decide on. I'm vanilla myself, but if you don't wanna believe that then that's your problem.
Leaning towards Ojanen, but not enough to vote.

DLA, so my case against you changed your mind from being convinced it's Kise to stuck and leaning Oj?

Oj, no it's just my general feeling of your play. Either way it's good.

First of all, notice that theory disappearing. Mind elaborating what that was, DLA?
Second of all, look how he's trying to avoid OMGUS.
He says my case didn't change his mind from being convinced Kise is scum, it's my "general play". Well look at that, all I posted between him being convinced of Kise scum and him unvoting suddenly was the aggressive case on him.
Also, he ignored this:

In any case, can you remember on what gave you the townvibes on Neto on D1, DLA, as opposed to the game you had shared a month earlier with him?

[Ojanen]

Kise, I really hope you do get the time for some rereading and stuff. You noticed yourself that your memory was off on the argument you accompagnied your vote on me with.
I skimmed the first 40 pages on a fast reading technique to get almost certain it's DLA a couple of days ago and it was just so so so obvious when looking at the stuff in context again, incredibly far more than from the isos that it's very frustrating if I don't get you guys to listen to me now or look at it yourself.

DLA is scum, because

both

Netopalis and Serial protect him, and sometimes lightly distance, but only if he's under attack, and then forget about it. It's obvious scumbuddy stuff.
DLA distances from Serial, but only after Serial and himself have both been attacked hard already D2, and then diverts next morning.
He puts his vote D3 on Serial but then diverts to Kise when it looks the wagon could get up there. The only point he's ever used against Serial is that Neto defended him. Out of the blue he goes "I actually think SC might be town.. Neto defended him a bit too much. In that case, there may be a scum who has fooled us all.. " and then votes Kise.
Later hops suddenly back to SC without explanation. I haven't had time to check the momentums there but I bet there's something that would come out as an obvious scum motive, because there has been for everything else.
Almost all of the "spontaneous" stuff - if you look at it in context it almost always has very rational scum motive. Derailing, going with the flow after scumbuddy is under heavy fire, retreating back, backpedaling after getting attacked himself for some read etc.

As to why would DLA distance from Serial - well bloody hell, just look at under how much pressure Serial was for almost the whole game, it makes sense in the way bussing always makes sense when demise seems to be looming before the end of the game.
I don't believe Serial would have any ego problems of consenting himself to bussing, other than that I'm not sure what Kise means with the consent. He's a team first guy, and almost everyone was very suspicious of him.

[Ojanen]

I like the quickhammer hindering cushion of 4-man endgame with 2 confirmed innocents. But obviously above all we just need to lynch the scum and you need to be able to have the time to evaluate the facts, be it for tomorrow or for the person surviving the night for an additional gameday then.
I'm likely on low to no access for the next 20 hours (will probably lock myself up in a place that has mafiascum blocked).
DLA, are you in any other games at the moment?

[Ojanen]

Enough said. From 22th Jan.

With the context of both scum protecting DLA and both DLA and Serial heavily linked to Neto, not nealy enough said. From 7th December:

Lets see if I lynch DLA I may get a read if he comes up scum to those who did not vote on him. If I lynch CSL or elibereth and either come up scum I look to those who ignored them.
IE: scum predictable

There happens to be something called 'bussing' as well, you know..

And my plan, which disappeared suddenly, wasn't a plan, it was just a thing to pressure Kise. Unfortunately it backfired.

Ohh, it was

pressure

again
You saying that you're totally convinced Kise is scum and voting for him in mylo, so you were just gambiting and testing the waters, nothing serious to see there?
Reminds me of D3, when you got off Serial to Kise saying you believe it's Kise+x and then back on Serial, and when questioned explained that oh nevermind, the Kise vote was just for added pressure.

Not in any other games, Ojanen, but modding one.

Yeah, I thought likely so from googling.
In that light this

Sorry, kinda forgot about this game =P Had to start up open 206.

should smell fake to others too.
It does happen that people forget games when they're in many of them, or are completely sucked in by rl or similar. DLA "forgot" his only game close to deadline in endgame situation the moment I layed my case against him, while continuing to come back several times to the site to mod his game and /in for new games.

[Ojanen]

CSL diverted that vote very soon back to hewitt.
This is extremely argh to watch but I guess I've said all I can. I'm travelling to Italy and won't be here until the deadline anymore. All I wrote here was truthful, I would have never let myself in such a connected fucking mess if I was scum, but I guess there's nothing else I can do now than lay it out there.
DLA makes such utterly beautiful sense as part of a scumteam if you read D1 in context. It's sad if you choose wrong for the sheer clarity and obvious scum team play of that and him getting out of everything by just pretending to be confused but I guess there's nothng else I can do.

[Ojanen]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

Train is going, so this will be the last you hear from me.
Bye.
Sorry for playing bad.

[Ojanen]

Very well played, scum.

I thought the lesson from this game and some other recent stuff would be to not ignore the obvious things and be extremely critical/self-editing on whether the reasons to defend someone are solid (and never ever trust serial ).
Instead it?s the opposite, only the obscure stuff ever works for me as scumtells (and only some of the time), plus the self editing and never trusting serial.
Tbh I kind of need to say that I didn?t think it was cool of Kise not to hammer, don?t really get the honour thing. You couldn?t have known but the timing was kinda epically bad. But I guess if putting energy for futility/mindfuck bothers me I probably just shouldn't be playing mafia in the first place.
And I haven?t had a chance to look at the qts so maybe haven't seen the full picture.
DLA: sorry, that was a colossally bad tunnel/reversal from me.

[Ojanen]

You forgot ever from never but yup. (justgotburnt speaking )
The opposite only applies to the first part about obvious vs. obscure.
Sorry, but you're too good a player and that plus potential bias is just too risky.

[Ojanen]

1) If you are NKed she's scum.

Dead men don't talk

2) If you aren't trusted, she's town.

One-sided fallacy

I just gg'd your meta

this wifom will be seriously useful

[Ojanen]

Ojanen,

Vanilla Townie

, lynched day 5!
DarkLightA,

Vanilla Townie

, shot night 5!
Ojanen,

Mason

, shot in endgame!

Taking double responsibility of the loss in mod's game wrapping post, I see! Perhaps deserved, lol.
Anyway. I should have done this earlier. But I think this is deserved.
I was the one completely trashed by his team in this game, but I do feel the quality of Serial's play was objectively great, and hope someone will second.
Kise played very well, and I don't mean to take anything away from that. But in the endgame, where in Kise's play I could see traces of mutual distancing, in Serial's play it was much harder, and that was one of the deciding factors.