Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[kikuchiyo]

Vote: Shotty to the Body

I didn't appreciate being killed. I found it rude and uncalled for.

In other news: I absolutely love this cast! I know 8/12 I believe. Fun fun!

[kikuchiyo]

Seriously, Shotty played sk really well. I had a self protect in that game but I figured "What are the odds of getting targeted night 1?"

Go figure.

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote, vote: DLA

Chainsaw defense by Farside? Are you guys 2/3 of the mafia?

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote, vote: DLA

Chainsaw defense by Farside? Are you guys 2/3 of the mafia?

No, because it seems like you had a non-random vote, and tried to "hide" it (so that you don't get the blame later) by adding an innocent

In other news: I absolutely love this cast! I know 8/12 I believe. Fun fun!

Please explain your vote.

LOL!

[kikuchiyo]

Okay, sorry. Took a minute to stop chuckling. Then it occurred to me that you are not one of the players from a previous game. Shotty was sk. I was scum jack of all trades with a one shot self protect. I thought I played a rather "townie" day 1, but not enough to draw a nightkill. I also went out of my way averting my scumbuddies lynch on day 1. Shotty(for some reason) targeted me and should have cost us the game. We did end up losing, but not because my partner in that game was exposed. In any case, I thought it was pretty obvious by my EXPLANATION which was given directly after I random voted. But apparently not.

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote, vote: DLA

Chainsaw defense by Farside? Are you guys 2/3 of the mafia?

Explain how my comment is a chainsaw defense. Do you find it not scummy to put words that someone didn't say into their statement?
Mind you as I said just the post previously I understand better what saber was doing but I see scum put twist interpretation into peoples statement more often then not.

Chainsaw defense is when one scum defends another scum by attacking the other scums attacker. To answer the question: There is no absolute answer. It depends on the intention. Saber's post read more like a joke with a serious undertone. i.e. DLA implied that I was scummy. Their post was not made clearly in jest(AEB 49). I think Saber may have been testing that out. Your reaction seemed like a defense of DLA. Is DLA incapable of defending themselves? In any case, I placed a question mark after my "chainsaw" comment. That means I am asking, not accusing. Are we done having fun?

[kikuchiyo]

I am unclear on 49. What was it that you thought was scummy?

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote

Okay.

Vote: Yarmond

Thoughts?

[kikuchiyo]

Yarmond

Post count = 0

[kikuchiyo]

Chainsaw really isn't conclusive unless one party or the other is actually conf scum.

Oh I get that I just always felt confused whenever I heard the term but I wasn't defending DLA I was question saberwolf on his edit of DLA's post so I'm not sure how that qualifies as chainsaw defense.

Technically it doesn't. If you and DLA are scum buddies then that would be a chainsaw defense. Hence the question mark.

64 makes sense.

Unvote

Let's see if the mod is on top of this one.

[kikuchiyo]

kikuchiyo, is that you (or representative of you) in your avatar?

I do model lingerie part time, but no, that's not me. I don't post my pics on the internet without a decent paycheck. Right now I am in all paper catalogs.

If 78 is referring to 77 then I have to agree.

Vote: Saber

[kikuchiyo]

107 makes me want to lynch saber even more.

[kikuchiyo]

107 makes me want to lynch saber even more.

wtf? lol

I fail to see why in any light.

QFT

You failed to give any logical reasoning behind the two. I think Saber is scummier. Therefore you have tied yourself to him a slight bit. 106 is also interesting...

[kikuchiyo]

Why mention Saber at all, then? You had your mind made up when you typed the arrow, so why pretend as though you are undecided?

Also, Where is Hewitt's vote? I don't remember him being on the DLA wagon.

Mod: Vote Count please?

If DLA's vote is "fake", please show how. Neither you nor Hewitt has gone to those lengths.

[kikuchiyo]

Shotty had two players he thought scummy. He seemed to randomly choose one over the other. Therefore he connects himself to the one he's not lynching if the one he lynches flips town. Its not an illogical leap. Shotty has since attempted to explain himself, however, the connection still stands depending on flips.

You, however, have avoided an inquiry.

If DLA's vote is "fake", please show how. Neither you nor Hewitt has gone to those lengths.

Please explain what is "fake" about the vote. If it is the "fakest" vote you have ever seen, please explain why it has not warranted your vote.

[kikuchiyo]

I will vote DLA if the vote count shows that it would not put him in the danger zone.

What exactly would be the point of said vote?

[kikuchiyo]

Doesn't sound very encouraging:

"Hey man, post better or I'm going to put you in no danger."

[kikuchiyo]

*claps*

Long story short: Saber is scum. or is it hewitt?

CSL: Are you scum?

[kikuchiyo]

Maybe he's gay. (no offense.)

[kikuchiyo]

Ugh yeah I know. I was hoping someone would vehemently disagree so we can start conversation somehow but apparently that didn't work.

What exactly do you want someone to vehemently disagree with? If you tell me, I will play the part of the person disagreeing vehemently and we can roleplay some discussion you hoped to achieve. Ok?

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote, Vote: Yarmond

This is fun!

[kikuchiyo]

I'm starting to retreat on Hewitt.. I think ABR went too far with this.

Why are you going to retreat on Hewitt? Please explain how ABR went to far with this.

I would rather lynch Yarmond. Hewitt is at least present and active. AtE before lynching, however, does not make one more scummy and pointing it out is like pointing up and saying "Hey, the sky is blue guys!" I don't see the point.

I will iso Hewitt. Apparently we don't need a hammer for deadline, but if necessary, I will be available. For now:

Mod: Replace Yarmond and extend the deadline, please?

[kikuchiyo]

First of all:

Like a bad father telling his son to do as he says and not as he does.

I hate parents that do it.

My detective skills tell me that neither of you have children. Good parents contradict themselves often. When multiple children are involved you will also learn to value "peace and quiet" over "fairness and equity". But that's another story.

Farside: I glaze. I don't find long arguments all that productive. If something comes up that looks suspicious I reread, but otherwise I try to observe what happens around an argument as opposed to in it.

I will try and iso Group A tonight or tomorrow.

[kikuchiyo]

Interesting switch here. I need both Saber and DLA to flesh out their reasoning for votes on CSL.

CSL: What was "protown" about hewitt's post?

[kikuchiyo]

Self voting is a null tell. There is no reason to condemn Serial for CSL's actions.

Welcome replacements!

I need to catch up. There seems to be another page or two behind me.

What killed the Hewitt bandwagon?

Unvote

[kikuchiyo]

What killed the Hewitt bandwagon?

Mainly CSL's scumminess.

Hm. I was under the impression that CSL's scumminess was somewhat dependent on him being scum partners with hewitt. Which makes me wonder why the wagon was redirected to the "secondary" suspect. Seems like those who find CSL scummy should be perfectly happy with a Hewitt lynch, no? Maybe I missed something. I still need to catch up.

[kikuchiyo]

Wow. Look at this mountain. or is it a molehill?

Seriously, sometimes I will try and paint someone scummy when I think they are town to try and keep them safe at night. Or I will act scummy enough to keep myself safe at night. I could link you to a game, but I think Saber was in it. I played a little scummy to stave off the nk because I had the role of doc. "Setting up lynches" is an entirely subjective scum tell in that regard. Unless you have a specific point(which I may have missed, tl;dr) I suggest we move on.

Does anyone want to post an update for me? My reading time is limited.

[kikuchiyo]

So then get on shotty's lynch and if it's town we'll deal with it then. If he's scum, we'll rip through this game and be home in time for tea.

I would like this to be expanded upon. What are you concluding from a shotty scum-flip?

kikuchiyo hasn't said much of anything this game. It's easy to forget her being in the game.

I am a busy woman. I read as much as I can and try to stay current. In case you're wondering, this is my town meta.

[kikuchiyo]

In any case, self voting is not a scumtell. Ever. I would say it more often than not is a townsperson acting stupid. I see nothing which indicates SC as scum. It seems that we should be lynching Netopalis, ABR, Shotty or Farside.

I think that if we lynch from the pairs of those opposed to one another that we would either hit scum, or reveal that the other player is scum, no? But I guess that circles back to the discussion on setting up lynches.

Right now I am leaning towards Netopalis. Mainly because he is eerily reminding me of the last game we shared.

I am fairly convinced that saber is town. He was my scum partner in Hellsing before ABR replaced in and he played way more horrible than he is now.

Thoughts?

[kikuchiyo]

Mod: Can we have a vote count?

[kikuchiyo]

Looks like I missed all the fun while I was lurking.

If Neto flips scum then SC is scum?

If Neto flips town then ABR is scum?

Yes, no, from everyone please.

[kikuchiyo]

No comment.

Unvote, Vote: Netopalis

Mod: Please replace Kittymo.

No offense, hon, but we need someone who can play.

[kikuchiyo]

Why did you hammer?

I was bored. Sorry, but this girl likes excitement.

I think Saber is town. Does that make you feel better?

[kikuchiyo]

Kiku - what gives?

I hammered scum. What's the problem?

Kittymo, Hewitt, Farside, Shotty. Not on the wagon.

I highly doubt both scum were bussing.

I think Shotty is most likely scum, Kise should chime in with a day 1 analysis, and hopefully Scigatt will be more helpful than Saber.

Serial: Why exactly did you find Neto scummy? Refresh my memory.

[kikuchiyo]

Looks like you're giving Neto points for voting Albert, but stating today that Albert was obvtown. Well done. Albert thought you were scum. You thought Albert was town. You thought Neto had a good chance of flipping scum, but gave him town points for voting Albert. Do I have that right?

[kikuchiyo]

I get that. It just doesn't jive with your assessment(in the same post) that Neto is going after the easy lynchbait targets. You are trying to have it both ways and I think Albert was keenly aware of this issue regarding your stance. Also, omgus cases are terrible so I inherently disagree with your assessment. I think you are Neto's scumpartner and you were trying to fence sit.

Who else are you suspicious of that was on the wagon yesterday? If you think both scum were on the wagon then who are they? If you don't think both scum were on the wagon, then you really shouldn't have a problem with my decision to go after the four who weren't. So tell me, who do you think is scum?

[kikuchiyo]

Why?

I find it unlikely that both scum would bus on day 1. I find it more likely that scum would attempt to stall the wagon, or redirect it. Therefore, studying the players who made such attempts makes sense to me. I think if one read many games one would find that when scum is lynched on day 1, more often than not, both other scum are not on the wagon.

Same questions to you as to SC: Who else are you suspicious of that was on the wagon yesterday? If you think both scum were on the wagon then who are they? If you don't think both scum were on the wagon, then you really shouldn't have a problem with my decision to go after the four who weren't.

7 players on the wagon. One confirmed town. 6 players on the wagon. If one scum is on and one scum is off then your chances of finding scum are 1/6. 1/4 are better odds and also means less information to sift through.

If anyone was worried about a quick hammer they could have unvoted at any time. Blaming me for a group decision is a little silly. Should I be beyond suspicon? Of course not. But is the hammer the most suspicious place on a day 1 scum wagon? That's debatable, but I think not. It certainly seems to be the easiest place to throw blame, and therefore the easiest place for scum to find a mislynch.

I suggest that those of you who are suspicious of me should instead today try and find who you think is my partner. Its a more logical way of going about scumhunting than serving townkiku up on a silverplatter for the mafia.

SC and DLA should answer my questions.

[kikuchiyo]

I also don't think that Neto would so actively meta-defend both of the other two scum...

This. Its what makes this choice all the more difficult.

[kikuchiyo]

Serial Clergyman: You must have missed these.

Who else are you suspicious of that was on the wagon yesterday? If you think both scum were on the wagon then who are they? If you don't think both scum were on the wagon, then you really shouldn't have a problem with my decision to go after the four who weren't.

You weren't avoiding answering these questions, were you?

[kikuchiyo]

The timeline goes..

Neto at L-1, talk of hammering but everyone decides to wait for Kitty and Ojanen.
Kiku jumps on the wagon and hammers.
--- Night ---
Kiku's first post says we should focus on those not on the wagon and goes through them all.

It seems possible to me that you pushed yourself onto the wagon and are now tryign to direct suspicion away from it.

Funny. Here's my timeline:

DLA - I'd hammer right now.

I'd like Kitty to chime in but won't ask you to wait for days for me, do as you will on the wagon.

Neto - you have claimed vanilla townie. There is no reason to keep you alive. You're scummy, your cases have been bad (Albert remains town) and Ojanen has stitched you up completely.

Plus your wagon will give us plenty of info. Speaking of which, if you're town I would have expected that you'd have accepted your lynch and given us your scumreads and things to go by for when you were confirmed.

You have 5 minutes for last words then I'm hammering. Last chance to be productive if you're town, or continue whining if scum.

STOP.......................



Hammertime.

unvote, vote Neto

Post 888. SC defends his hammer and hop on the wagon.

Post 901. DLA asks if anyone is in for the hammer once Mod acknowledges that SC's vote is not hte hammer.

ABR unvotes. Then revotes wanting to hear from Ojanen and Kittymo.

Hewitt "sees" the case on Neto.

Post 928. SC maintains that Neto is the "right" lynch. No mention of waiting for anybody. No acknowledgement of his failed hammer. Defensive response. No new insight or investigation.

Post 931. SC is obviously bored?

Post 940. Saber with a good point.

Post 942. SC actually criticizes Albert(his obvtown read) for wanting to wait to hear from Kittymo.

Kittymo responds. Serial calls it weak.

Shotty goes V/LA.

Kiku hammers.

Tl;dr SC is spouting bullshit. Only Albert and Farside expressed any interest whatsoever in hearing from Kitty and Ojanen. Trying to paint that as some sort of cooperative town decision to wait on the hammer is entirely false. Again: SC is trying to have it both ways.

[kikuchiyo]

^^ This post contains no other suspects. Anytime you would like to share your thoughts in that direction(you've been asked twice) is welcome.

You didn't "engage" Kitty imo, and you never came back to voice dissapproval of the hammer when it occurred. If you are off base, reread the end of the day before slinging bullshit accusations.

Shotty: What do you think of DLA? What do you think of SC?

SC: What do you think of DLA?

Farside: Should we lynch Shotty before DLA/Serial?

Saber: Thoughts?

[kikuchiyo]

I did disapprove of the hammer, I asked you to explain it before hte lynch scene was posted, which you never responded to.

Please show where this occurred. You never returned after your "Kitty" engagement.

I hammered because noone was. It seemed to me like the wagon was being stalled. That indicated to me that Neto was scum and that his buddy(s) didn't want to hammer him.

What do you think of Saber?

[kikuchiyo]

Where is hewitt?

DLA: What's wrong with asking players their opinions of other players? I find it a useful tool in solidifying reads as well as picking out scumpartners later in the game.

I'm not sold on Shotty. Not sure if its just because its the holidays, but we have a few backseaters today that need to post content.

[kikuchiyo]

I tend to agree. the defense is so protracted, and I believe that most of it came when Neto was not on the table for lynch(though I'd have to see a vote analysis for comparison). I think ABR was the only one pressuring Neto for some time. Hopefully our lurkers will return.

[kikuchiyo]

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time.

I disagree. Only two players requested time, and one of them put Neto to L-1. If Albert wanted to stall for time then he shouldn't have revoted. See what you are doing here:

[quote"Oj"] Disliked excusing herself as part of the wagon btw - none of the Neto momentum came from her spot.[/quote]

You can't have it both ways. Either give me credit for being on the wagon, or don't. In situation 1 you are "blaming" me for ending the day(even though Neto was scum.) In situation 2 you are condemning me for pointing out that I hammered. That's not really fair. If we leave the thread open, people are going to continue to talk.

Deadline was just as far away when Serial hammered.

There were still two players who had contiributed very little.

Albert had stressed not to hammer, modifying his stance from earlier.

Again: no. He put Neto back to L-1. Neto could have self hammered to end discussion.

Serial had even just asked a question.

Correct. Let's look atr that question:

Could you explain how a Neto scumflip or townflip would affect your reads?

Interesting question, especially when you place it besides mine:

If Neto flips scum then SC is scum?
If Neto flips town then ABR is scum?
Yes, no, from everyone please.

So we should have waited around for Serial to get an answer to his question, but when I ask almost the exact same question, you say:

Beside being pointless post-lynch (as you thought) chaining, let's flip the last one to "if Neto flips scum the ABR is town". Ta-daa, we have the nightkill, and we have the person you seem to be attacking on a somehow more decisive way than your earlier actions are.

What exactly are you implying here? I don't quite understand it, but my point is that you are giving Serial "town" points for asking the exact same question.

The wagon stalling thing, I note it hasn't come up with any other wagons so far, thinking of hewitt being quite similar but would need to check this.
Also lack of consistency to not voting right now, even though she's agreeing on SC being obvscum.

You're not voting yet either. Though I think SC is obvscum here, that doesn't mean we should pile on and finish him. He may very well be town. Interesting how you characterize my day 1 play as "hammering early", and now criticze me for being conservative.

Actually a reasonable chunk of it came also when Neto was under heavy attack leading to likely lynch. He was being connected to CSL/SC, it would make sense from scum to strenghthen that.

Part of what makes this decision so tough. Let's not argue the semantics of a "reasonable chunk", but I'm not going to discoiunt the idea that Neto buddied townSC.

I do not like the manner of the attack today by kiku.

You are confusing me. I am suspicious because I am not voting, but you don't like my "manner of attack". Who have I actually "attacked"? I feel like I spent the beginning of the day defending myself from Serial, and the players I suggested we start filtering are those not on the scum wagon from yesterday. Same question to you as to the others: Even if you are suspicious of me, do you think that both scum were on the day 1 scumwagon? If so, who else is scum? If not, why try and use my theory against me when the odds are clearly in support of my logic(1/4 is easier to sift through than 1/6.)

"Don't hold replacement's actions against them" was weird from Neto. Slight wifom scumpoints to the Yarmond spot I think then, whoever's turn it is not to play it currently (Kise?).

This is difficult to figure out as well. Inactives are usually easy targets for scum, so going out of one's way to protect player slots that are nearly vacant just makes little sense. Wifom, and almost to me seems like a train of thought we should abandon.

Oj: Who did Neto pursue as scum on day 1?

[kikuchiyo]

There were

conversations going on

, as I already said.

I never argued this.

MIGHTILY disagreeing that I'm unreasonable here.
There are obviously different ways of being on a wagon depending on timing, general situation, accompagnying persuasion of others etc. For the type of wagoning that creates momentum on scum you would get credit. For hammering someone who clearly looks like a inevitable lynch there is no reason at all to give extra credit. Me disliking you hinting to try and claim wagon credit is perfectly reasonable.

Agree to disagree.

This is just false, see the last quote from Albert above. Yes,

he put Neto to L-1

. And that got this interesting reaction from you.

Hindsight is 20/20. I have not attempted to argue that me hammering "clears" me. I simply entered today pointing to the group I felt it would be easier to sift through. Albert placed Neto in the postition he did. Neto could have self hammered just as easily as a hypothetical scumbuddy could have.

As for you vs. Serial asking question of flip affecting reads, you asked in (false) twilight from everyone conclusions of a flip directly implying chaining Serial. Serial asked from one person with hyperlow content implying chaining noone (pre-hammer also, but that's not as relevant since lynch seemed inevitable).

Soooo, the lynch was "inevitable" after Serial's hammer, but not before? I am not following. The questions were the same with different wording. We were both asking questions of others in regards to how a flip was going to affect reads. Mine was a bit more specific in nature, but essentially the same. How was I "chaining" anyone? I was asking opinions.

I note btw you are constantly saying variations of "Serial did it too". Can you tell what was the point of your questions instead?

The point of my questions was to see how players reads would be affected by the flip.

How is me voting or not voting relevant at all? I haven't called anyone obvscum today. The whole point was that your hammer is uncharacteristically hasty regards to your other play, and your explanation at the time (liking excitement or whatever similar it was) doesn't fit rest of your voting patterns. Your last sentence misses the point.

Expand on "uncharacteristically hasty" if you can.
Also, do you think I am scummy?

I don't feel like rereading you right now again, but you have definitively attacked Serial, and you have attacked the non-wagoners.

Funny. If you are going to make an accusation, please back it up. I specifically started the day by saying we should hunt off the wagon. Serial was on the wagon. I am not attacking him and I have not voted him. I am remaining active and responding to everything. If you take the time to reread you will plainly see that

it was Serial who attacked me.

Off wagon I'm still looking at Shotty and Kise. I'm keeping an eye on 2 others. Yes, I find it rather likely there was scum off wagon.

By all means, grace us with your opinions of them when you're ready.

Wait wait wait. You agree with DLA that Neto going out of his way to give clean slate to CSL replacement is scummy, but in the case of Yarmond we should abandon the thought, when what he really did was express desire to give clean slate to everyone replacing in?

No. I am saying that because Neto defended multiple players the way he did, that we might benefit from finding another way to scumhunt than simply trying to determnie who he defended most. Especially among inactive players.

This means who he thought was scum? (insert compulsory "I have ESL" excuse here.)
Too impatient to iso right now. Off the top of my head he attacked ABR, shaped up to hammer hewitt, attacked Saber, vaguely attacked many really with not carrying that much out (expressed willingness to policy lynch DLA, CSL at some points for instance.).
What is the point of you quizzing me?

Because I think it is important we look at the whole picture and not just address who Neto defended, but see who he attacked and how he went about it. I don't expect much over the holidays from everyone, but this game is going to require some serious rereading if we are to make the right decision today. I accept that part of that is my fault, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop:

Also, do you think I am scummy?

This escaped me. Please note that in 1041 this is not me asking this of you. It is residual from your post. In response: No, as of right now I do not think you are scummy. Your reasoning is logical, I just disagree with your conclusions.

[kikuchiyo]

There were

conversations going on

, as I already said.

I never argued this.

False! See:

At the time you hammered there were several conversations going on, contrary to Serial's fake hammer time.

I disagree. Only two players requested time, and one of them put Neto to L-1. If Albert wanted to stall for time then he shouldn't have revoted.

I am not disagreeing there were conversations going on, I am disagreeing with the assessment that there was some sort of "cooperative town decision" to wait. How am I supposed to know that the other players "stalling" are going to deliver? Could I have waited? Yes. Let's move on.

Honestly, after Albert

just

completely explicitly saying it's important to get reads from everyone and KittyMo before hammer, I cannot see how you can argue he wanted to end the day right away.

That's not what I'm arguing. I thought Neto was a good lynch candidate. The fact that noone was crossing over to hammer him suggested to me that one of those players was most likely scum if Neto flipped scum. I got antsy. I hammered. Sue me.

Pressure can get interesting reactions, like your hammer. I guess we'll agree to disagree that L-1 vote always means "I am fine with a hammer". (if that would be the case, claiming for instance would happen on a different way to the standard culture)

Neto had been at L-1 before. Do you think Albert's unvote then revote changed in any way the inevitabitilty you claim to exist surrounding the Neto lynch? Hint: It didn't. There was no need to place Neto back at L-1. Don't blame me for Albert's mistake. Neto was scum. He could have self hammered.

Fact is, you have attempted to defend yourself through the pure hammer itself.

No. I am defending myself by participating in excess on day 2, questioning my suspects, and responding to my accusers.

Your first sentence seems confused, both question occurences were after the Serial hammer.
You asked from everyone, Serial from the hyperlowcontent Kise slot.
You asked pre-flip from all if Neto scumflip makes Serial scum. That has a sidetaste of chaining.

The responses to my questions would allow me to see other players who "have a taste of chaining". How do you not see that as a relevant inquiry?

And why did you want to know this from every player in the game after the hammer?

This has been answered.

You haven't voted anyone.
I guess I thought this was your position on Serial, correct me if I'm wrong:

So, what do you guys think. I think that SC is obv-scum..

I tend to agree. the defense is so protracted, and I believe that most of it came when Neto was not on the table for lynch(though I'd have to see a vote analysis for comparison). I think ABR was the only one pressuring Neto for some time.

Also, on a skim, I can't see any content brought up on who from the wagoners is scum, except that you're not sold on Shotty. Just going rounds and rounds asking what they think of each other.

Actually, Serial was on the wagon and started the day as my biggest suspect "on the wagon". I think my stances have been clear. Would you like a town/scum list? Off the wagon, Shotty is my biggest suspect. What is wrong with asking other players what they think of each other? How else can I determine who is willing to lynch who? How else can I garner information to use after another flip?

No. I am saying that because Neto defended multiple players the way he did, that we might benefit from finding another way to scumhunt than simply trying to determnie who he defended most. Especially among inactive players.

Urrrrrrgh. Look at the quote above this one where you agree with DLA. I really don't get you.

Perhaps you should look at the timestamps when you quote opinions. Based on Neto's defense of other players we have differing views on who among those defended are most likely scum. Therefore, we should change our tactics to help us determine who is actually scum. Or would you prefer we blindly lynch one of DLA/Serial?

What is the point of you quizzing me?

Because I think it is important we look at the whole picture and not just address who Neto defended, but see who he attacked and how he went about it. I don't expect much over the holidays from everyone, but this game is going to require some serious rereading if we are to make the right decision today. I accept that part of that is my fault, but again, hindsight is 20/20.

I still don't understand the question, it was an interpretation/analysis-void "what" question.

You asked me "what is the point of you quizzing me?". I say, "because I think its important to look at the whole picture and not just address who Neto defended." What's the issue? I am suggesting that we work together to find scum by following a different line of thought than the one that seems to have led us to a disagreement over which one of Serial/DLA is scum. Lynching out of that pair may not be the best play. If it is, we can always come back to it.

We need input from the other three player slots who didn't make it onto the wagon.

[kikuchiyo]

Ugh, Christmas is owning my time.

Reading through Ojanen and kiku I'm liking kiku less and less. I don't get why she utterly refuses to acknowledge that her hammer cut off conversation,

Could I have waited? Yes. Let's move on.

that her place on the wagon is at least partially opportunistic etc etc. I mean, if she'd come out and said 'yes, I didn't care about the conversation, scum was there to be hammered and I got it done, I don't care that I was late on the wagon, I wanted to make sure he was going down and anyone else can just deal with it. If you don't want to consider me part of the wagon, good on you'

I thought Neto was a good lynch candidate. The fact that noone was crossing over to hammer him suggested to me that one of those players was most likely scum if Neto flipped scum. I got antsy. I hammered. Sue me.

That's strange, its almost like you're making shit up without even reading the thread. All of the things you describe me not saying seem to have already been said.

The next day she asks us to concentrate off the wagon. BY HER OWN ADMISSION, I call her on it and she starts to attack me.

You were one of my top two suspects coming into today.

You were one of Albert's top two suspects from yesterday.

I stand by the statement I made earlier that I think we should hunt off the wagon today. Help us find your scumbuddy.

As far as I can tell, kiku didn't find me scummy or want to push for my lynch until I attacked her.

Untrue. I was pretty solid on your connection to Neto. If you note, I even asked a question at the end of day 1 to see how many others saw the same connection.

This also corresponded to a massive rise in activity. She's already typed about as much today as she has the entirety of D1.

Would you rather I lurk? Please note that I did not accuse you of anything without giving you an oppurtunity to explain and defend yourself. My engagements have all been pro-town and pro-discussion.

There is much to be suspicious of in kiku's play. I've played with her twice before and I could see lurking, and I could even see unapologetic hamering, but her play today has been contradictory and bizzare.

Anytime you want to point out a contradiction, feel free. I have been focused on the Shotty/DLA/SerialClergyman grouping from the start.

So where do I sit? Ugh. Not enough nooses.

^^^ Not a very protown statement here. Townies should be focused. This is poor play coming from you.

So I'm on board for a kiku wagon. If the above hasn't convinced you, I urge everyone to read OJ vs kiku above, I think it's very clear who's scrabbling for ap osition and who is making sense. If it was anyone but Ojanen I'd declare them town but she's damn, damn good as scum. Call it a townly-indicator.

Wait. I'm scum because I appear town? But Shotty is just too difficult to read? Am I misreading this? Funny how you choose me over Shotty.

[kikuchiyo]

I think I did misread your post SC. Are you saying that in reading Ojanen vs. kiku that you are actually considering both of us to be scum? That if it was anybody but Ojanen that you would think them town? So because its Ojanen and she's good at being scum, you entertain the possibility that we are scumbuddies, partnered with Neto?

[kikuchiyo]

Yet you continue to elevate your status as obvious scum imo.

Vote: Shotty

I'd like Shotty to contribute or hang. SC is most certainly scum, no need to rush him off to the gallows.

SC: I hope that when you do respond, you include an appropriate analysis of someone other than me. (psssy: try your scumbuddy Shotty)

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop: Just realizing you've analyzed Shotty a bit. You seem to think he's scum. You're not going to get me lynched today. Why not hop on his wagon?

Also, all townies should be following Albert's lead today. We know a couple things:

A) He's devilishly handsome.
B) He was hot on the trail of most likely, the entire scum team.
C) He laid out his suspicions rather well, and also boldly embraced his town reads.
D) He was a mason. Which means he spent the evening most likely coaching his mason partners on who to pursue and how to do it. Every self respecting townie should be acting as if they were a part of that conversation. SerialClergyman is making it extremely blatant that he was not a part of that conversation, plus he is blatantly ignoring Albert's day 1 behavior towards certain parties thereby discrediting his reads. Anti-town, anti-town, anti-town.

SC is so scummy that I would be comfortable waiting until lylo to lynch him while we sort through this mess and find his scum partner.

[kikuchiyo]

Are you kidding? Post 1060 clearly shows that Serial is not paying attention. He says that he would believe me if I said certain things. I quote where I said the exact same things. I haven't dodged anything today. I have responded to everything. You don't find it odd that he is reluctant to lynch the player who is most likely his scum partner(Shotty)?

[kikuchiyo]

I have to agree that post is a big load I don't like how you go off of your vote when SC pressures you right now.

What vote? What's a "load"?

Funny how Kiku says follow Albert even though he didn't think I was scum

You were his number one suspect. Please note 1071 is an intensely anti-town post. Townies should not be discouraging the idea that they are not masons with ABR. Both Shotty and SC are making it obvious that they are not masons. This is an entriely anti-town approach to day 2. I am thoroughly impressed that ABR nailed the entire scum team off of day 1.

[kikuchiyo]

SC's arguments today have been pitiful and Shotty's contribution awful.

SC thinks Shotty may be scum, but won't pursue the matter.

My opening suggestion was to hunt off the wagon. Assuming one scum on the wagon and one scum off:

ABR was a Mason. Odds are that at least one of the other masons was on the wagon(if not both).

If one mason stayed off the wagon to create distance, then the odds of finding scum off the wagon becomes one in three. If Farside isn't the mason, then the other mason off the wagon should realize that Farside is obvious town, meaning the mason off the wagon(provided it isn't Farside) has 1/2 chance of finding scum.

Even if both other masons were on the wagon, the odds are not nearly as good as 1/3, because nobody on the wagon was obvtown.

Of the players on the wagon there is one confirmed town, and no obvtown. Off the wagon, there is one obvtown(Farside). So out of Hewitt, Shotty and Kittymo, one is most likely scum. If one of them is a mason then it narrows it down to two, see? Its not Hewitt as he claimed vanilla, so one of Kittymo or Shotty is most likely scum. There's no real reason to lynch Kittymo's slot. Therefore...

We should honor Albert's wishes and follow up on Shotty.

Shotty's "Albert thought I was town" post was cherry picked from page 20. It included Albert calling Shotty out for anti-town play and it didn't really give a read one way or the other, just backed up that Albert wanted a different lynch. Said lynch occurred almost 20 pages later. I thought Neto was town for a while, opinions change. Trying to point to a n opinion(and not even a good one at that) and use it as a static indicator of scumminess in a dynamic game is piss poor. Follow it up with, Oh yeah, I'm going to continue to lurk and you have a prime lynch candidate.

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry, please point out where Albert said I was his #1 suspect.

Geez. I wonder...

Your blatant misrep is poor form. You were one of my top suspects coming in to today. That has nothing to do with whether or not I was suspicious of you yesterday. Day 1 is about gaining information. Not spilling your guts so scum can manipulate nightkills. I am growing tired of this as well. We seem to be arguing in circles.

I think(with good reason) that Serial may be scum with Shotty. Therefore it helps to pit them against each other. By waffling on whether or not I think Shotty is scum, I can better ascertain Serial's true feelings. Serial does not want to lynch Shotty. He has talked and talked and talked about how scummy Shotty is but has not voted. He has been waiting to find somewhere else to place his vote.

Post 1091 proves that Serial believes Shotty is scum. If he's so sure Shotty is scum then he should be just as willing to lynch Shotty as he is to lynch me. But he's not. He wants me over Shotty. He's afraid that scumkiku is tying him to scum Shotty. Newsflash: If Shotty is scum and flips so today, townSerial should be more than happy to get mislynched tomorrow to prove his point that he believes kiku is scum. Lynching scum two days in a row with the "third" on the hook is a good place to be sitting. But Serial isn't going there.

SC: If you think I am scum with Shotty, then lynch Shotty. If Shotty flips scum, town can decide between you and me tomorrow. Fair?

Mod: Can we have a votecount?

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop: Sorry, 1096 is directed at Serial, not Shotty. The first line is in response to Shotty's question. The rest of the post regarding misrep and blah blah blah is addressed to Serial.

[kikuchiyo]

Read 1097. That part was addressed to Serial. However, you were one of my top two to start with, my top suspect off the wagon, actually. I have been purposely waffling on my public opinion of you to guage whether or not Serial is your partner. I think he may be, but the lurkers among us are hurting this game. In any case: You're scum. You're going to get lynched today. Merry Christmas!

[kikuchiyo]

Also note that Kik can't point out where ABR said I was scummy, it's completely unsubstantiated bull that she's trying to smooth over and ignore by cutting deals with SC now.

You're not paying attention. Mostly because you are scum and are unable to approach this game as a townie should. Its not your fault, really.

[kikuchiyo]

Lol fail so hard, you admit to waffling on me? We're supposed to believe that was some gambit now? Please.

Yes and yes. And it worked as far as I can tell. SC has done everything in his power to avoid voting you. Kind of odd.

[kikuchiyo]

I am not understanding your question. This an open "Friends and Enemies" set-up. You recieved a scum role and therefore cannot wrap your head around what I am talking about. You don't understand because you are not town. You were Albert's number one suspect from day 1. At some point, you will hear a loud "POP". Don't be afraid, its just your head popping out of your ass. Unfortunately, its too late. You've been exposed.

[kikuchiyo]

Kise: The main point I am trying to make is that Serial believs both Shotty and myself are scum. His case against me pretty much "requires" Shotty to be scum, while the case he made against Shotty stands fine on its own imo. For some reason, Serial seems reluctant to lynch Shotty. His main reasoning for this as I recall, is that he believes scumkiku is attempting to tie townSerial to scumShotty, and trying to lynch scumShotty to frame townSerial. Its actually a bit convoluted when you think of it, but now I'm off track.

The fact is, it reads as "self preservation" to me. Self preservation is much more of a scumtell than a towntell imo. Granted, roles like "cop" and "doc" are town roles which at times require self preservation type play. But this is an open set-up. There are still two townies out there who can confirm each other. There is no real reason for vanilla townies to act in an overly self preserving manner, especially if they think they have caught scum. If Serial really believes Shotty is scum, then he shouldn't be so hesitant to lynch him. But he is hesitant and he seems to have even had to talk himself into voting me instead of Shotty.

Shotty, on the other hand, has done nothing today but jump my wagon without so much as an original thought or a full and proper reread. Hugely anti-town in a game where there are two masons left, and vanilla townies should all be acting as though they are masons in order to draw nightkills away from the masons to preserve the masons identities as long as possible.

I suggest you reread today closely. There is a lot of information to be gained regardless of who we lynch.

[kikuchiyo]

I mean really. We can all go back and read the posts you know.

Please do. Pay particular attention to this one:

Sorry, please point out where Albert said I was his #1 suspect.

Geez. I wonder...

[kikuchiyo]

I have to go to work for about 8 hours. So, just to be clear.

I am a mason. Albert told me who his main suspects were, gave me a stern talking to over the hammer, and instructed me on how to come out today and be more active and try to lead the town. Obviously I haven't done the best job. My apologies.

I think Shotty's contribution is paltry and is scummiest above all else.

The most recently puzzling post is DLA's town to scum list. I have no idea why Elli and Scigatt would be at the top. Could be scum buddying town.

Serial, if you are town, please look at what was happening around both of us and make your decision carefully. I am pretty sure that Shotty is scum.

[kikuchiyo]

Like Serial posting extensive cases and analysis against Shotty, and being the first in doing so?
And, you know,

voting

for Shotty on D1 and pushing for his lynch aggressively before my case on Neto?
This is really smashingly untrue.

This can easily be explained as scumSerial more than happy to bus either of his partners on day 1, but looking for any and every excuse

not

to bus his remaining partner on day 2. If he wasn't consistent in his suspicions then it would be an immediate tip off that he was scum, but if you see his play today, then you should easily be able to see him going for me over Shotty, even though his case on Shotty is much more solid looking and expansive.

Also, note the gigantic hypocracy. You think Serial is certainly scum yet are not willing to vote for him.

I am willing to vote Serial, but I am more positive on Shotty. My play today was built around trying to see how Serial would interact with Shotty. Sorry, but I am not the best mafia player. I am still learning. As you can see from Elli's post, hammering is a weak spot for me. I like doing it.

[kikuchiyo]

Shotty: Now that you are being lynched, do you think it might be beneficial to do any scumhunting? Any other ideas on who might be scum?

[kikuchiyo]

I realize this is ironic coming from me, but we shouldn't be hammering until we get content from the lurking slots.

No worries, Oj, I need to work on my game. This is the first time I have had this type of role.

I wanted to claim right away today to avoid the shenanigans, but Albert thought it would be good to let my wagon build and watch the interactions. That was my main drive for trying to pit Shotty vs. Serial.

Someone should unvote. The lurkers are so in the background that I can't even remember who they are.

[kikuchiyo]

Shotty's silence is deafening.

I think DLA is saying: "If kiku is not a mason, then one of the masons should counterclaim." I agree with him. If someone wants to counterclaim me they should do it now. If, for some reason I am alive tomorrow and someone attempts to counter me then, they should be autolynched.

[kikuchiyo]

Serial: What is scummy about the slot? 1175 seems like a reason to leave Kise alone, no?

[kikuchiyo]

Just going to put this out there: Kise replaced into another game. If he can't follow through here I suggest a policy lynch.

Kise: Understand that if you are town you need to post something interesting and informative. Post your stance on the major players involved in day 2, and who was most suspicious to you from day 1. That's all we need to move forward. Thanks.

[kikuchiyo]

It's not a policy lynch if he's genuinely scummy. That sort of posting pattern isn't lurking, it's actively not posting. He's probably scum.

Whose his partner?

[kikuchiyo]

Shotty: Why do you sign up for a game if you are not reading? I am a mason. You have had plenty of oppurtunity shift focus off of you in the last few pages. Thanks for nothing if you are town.

[kikuchiyo]

Shotty: Anytime you would like to post some revised suspicions would be appreciated.

[kikuchiyo]

Quiet, scum. I agree with Scigatt.

Mod: Where are you?