Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[SerialClergyman]

unvote

Hi guys. I'll re-read and post something as soon as I can.

Hello to all you kids I've played with before, and some that I ahven't but am looking forward to!

[SerialClergyman]

He's referring to the fact that we've had a couple of chats via PM and wanted to play together for a while, but now that I've finally joined a game with him I've replaced the guy who he's targetting and has sworn to wreak vengeance upon.

It's all very grandiose and aggressive and so wonderfully ABR. But you can't sit there tunnelling on the bad player any more, you're actually going to have to stretch out your hunting ability and do better than a glorified policy lynch D1.

[SerialClergyman]

Lol - your flattery notwithstanding, if I'm so good then why are you prepared to lynch on sight due to the bizarre actions of CSL?

I get my head is on the chopping block, but we're talking about catastrophic failure by the guy that have no motivation for town or scum, it's still D1 and there's no flips. I know that your read can't be based on anything particularly concrete.

Essentially, I'm worth keeping around - I'm a BEAST!

Now I've just got to go re-read and prove it .

[SerialClergyman]

As I'm reading, something occurs to me.

Saber - could you please tell us your full position on CSL and whether you think his actions make the player slot likely to be scum?

Cheers.

[SerialClergyman]

ABR - do you prefer ABR or Albert? I remember you had a strong preference for one over the other but I can't remember which.

Albert is absolutely town by the way. He's scummy, tunnelling, bullying the town awful yet brilliant, provoking OMGUS and replacement in his two primary victims/suspects and most importantly of all he's enjoying this game far too much to be scum.

Still reading, will content post when I can.

[SerialClergyman]

Just give me a gut yes or no - CSL scum or not?

[SerialClergyman]

Hi Ojanen! Great to play with you again

I'm not going to get a post up tonight, I think. Should be tomorrow.

[SerialClergyman]

OK.

So here's what I can do. I can give you all my opinion on some of the issues in the game, let you know who I think are town and who are scum. I can't, despite Albert's flattery that was designed to get me lynched because he's an evil genius, solve the game and ride off into the sunset. I can't erase CSL's actions either. But hopefully I can get you to judge me not him. After all, he was replaced for a reason (and Albert asked for a replacement for a reason - yeah I saw that before asking for the modkill you sly dog).

Firstly, my reads.
Albert is town.
farsie is probably town.

I have no idea on hewitt. If I thought ABR was scum, I'd be sure Hewitt was town, but I'm almost certain he's not. The OMGUS is to be expected after an ABR rampage (especially if, as it seems from his post, he didn't quite get what ABR was about). Not the worst lynch in the world, actually. Deserved to have been policy lynched for quoting ABR's entire iso

Konowa/Ojanen are worthy of a look. Has only attacked DLA and Saber so far in the game, which, lets face it, are two of the most lynchbaity of the lynchbait. Indecisiveness between the wagons doesn't help his case.

I had yet to decide whether or not I wanted to switch my vote. kikuchiyo understanding instantly what I meant and voting saber did play a small part in my decision. I, however, decided that between DLA and saber that saber was scummier to me at the moment. I think that DLA is also scummy and needs a good wagon, but I like my vote where it is right now.

Eewwww. Scummy. I am always wary of players who don't clash with the most assured personalities and doubly wary of them if they're indecisive amongst lynchbait.

DLA and saber are both too random to call. They look like lynchbait, especially with the suspicion they get.

Ellibereth is scum. That is an epic case of hold on for the ride bandwagoning. His entire play has been 'I agree'. He used to think Hewitt was scummy when ABR did, now he doesn't. Then he uses a post hewitt made about Neto to attack Neto? No answer for where the suspicion of hewitt went - just disappeared :/

I'll try to give you a sense of what I mean.

OK...I read through everything but I'm not completely sure what to post that isn't just repeated what people said...I'll be happy to answer any questions though.

What do you want me to say about the replacements?

To be honest, I think that Neto, DLA are scum...I didn't really find Neto's answer to hewitt's case that convincing.

...That wasn't even a real case that was a fake case. I don't think Netopalis is scummy at all and that "case" didn't need a response from him.

Why can't it be used as a real one?

Just reading elizabeth's post 276. Why are you voting hewitt? Nothing in that post shows a reason. How is hewitt misrep? Why are you taking one side over the other?

Ellibereth not elizabeth.
Cause I think he's scum.
He had a misrep in 218.

Etc etc. Keeping quiet, playing along, keeping suspicions in line with town opinion. Scum.

Neto is also a good chance of flipping scum. He's been voting the same lynchbait targets as would be expected. Suggested a policy lynch without having the balls to actually say lets policy lynch someone, which is a scumtell in my eyes. He did have the balls to vote Albert though, which redeems him slightly, because bringing blue-eyed wrath upon oneself isn't always the best option.

Oh, hi. Forgot you were playing. You seem to be doing an excellent job of going unnoticed.

I am getting suspicious of Saber, though, for his eagerness to hop onto that idea without putting in much thought.

No vote until next post here:

What the heck? I vote ABR to make a point, you hop on and vote him as well. I unvote him because I didn't want too many votes on him, then all of a sudden you feel a loss of conviction and unvote as well?

Vote: Saberwolf

Personally, I think that CSL's play makes him an excellent policy lynch in practically any game...but I know that this is going to be an extreme minority position in this game.

As for my not arguing strongly on DLA, that's honestly been because I have prior experience with him and I don't feel that my reads are that accurate for that reason

We've also got Shotty to the Body who is probably my top pick for scum. HE exhibits the same 'going for easy targets' mentality with the same 'unoriginal thinking' mentality. He starts off voting ofr Konowa (+++) but then relatively quickly both unvotes AND says that he's prepared to lynch either lynchbait candidate immediately without saying it's a policy vote.

I can't decide if I want to vote Saber, DLA, or keep it where it is, choices choices... Ah what the hell unvote, vote DLA

Then, what's the logical next step for the scumbucket? Joining the ABR-pushed wagon. Tick!

How is that a misrep? You accuse me and ABR of not contributing (which, at least in my case, is a flat-out lie) and use that as a scum-tell. That would imply that YOU contribute unless you're admitting to being scum? He never said you were a top contributer just that you don't contribute either, so now you're misrepping him.

unvote, vote hewitt

I could go for a DLA lynch today or tomorrow, if we lynched hewitt today and he flipped town I would be 100% behind a DLA lynch day two.

Lining up lynches. One of my faaaavourite scumtells, and one of the few conventional scumtells that actually does catch scum. This is essentially all I need for my vote. But then, this next post came along!

I encourage everyone to unvote vote DLA. ABR is an obvious scum-buddy to DLA considering how much DLA was vacuumed to ABR's opinions and as newb-scum didn't know any better to hide all the blatant buddying big enough to choke a horse.

Sorry, what? Shotty was right up in hewitt's business with his boy ABR and now ABR and DLA are scumbuddies? This is rubbish. When called on lining up lynches, he says (with historical innacuracy):

Who pushed Hewitt's lynch the hardest? ABR and DLA? Last time I checked pushing mislynches was bad? Hewitt said the same thing in 278. Why aren't you busting his balls?

There is more but this is already a gigantic wall, which I apologise for but it's my replacing in post. Essentially, he then defends CSL to show he's not going after easy targets and to try to heap crap onto farside when the reality is at about post 160 he said he was prepared to lynch TWO SEPARATE EASY TARGETS in saber and DLA.

I'm sure I've missed a few but these are the ones that jumped out. To be honest, I'd be down with a policy lynch of saber or DLA, a lynch of Ojanen/Konowa or a Neto lynch, but I'm heavily in favour of a Shotty lynch.

Now, to Albert's threats of impending doom upon my person.

The biggest issue that I don't understand is why Albert isn't focusing on hewitt. kiku made this point and was denounced for not having contributed much, but the point was lost somewhere. It seems to me that his theories of the game are centered around one player that he no longer wishes to vote.

For example, your dissertation of what CSL secretly meant depended on hewitt being a scum buddy. If not, it reads like it should, a bad player trying to work out if hewitt's defence was genuine or if it was scum on the end of a hook. He goes with his gut, changes his mind, remains suspicious - he's reacting in the right ways, just explaining it in a hamfisted way. But rather than that being indicative of hewitt's alignment (your buddies don't know whether to bus you or not), Albert suddenly switches. I've seen Albert reduce competent players to snivelling messes. Imagine what a barrage of attacks like htat would do to Newbie McHamfisted over there.

His 'claiming scum' was saying:

The only way I'd get out of this game is if I Unvote and quite possibly Vote: CSL

Rubbish. That is a townie who thinks he's just fucked up beyond repair and is demoralised into getting rid of himself. If he'd chosen to replace out himself you might have more of a case, but he was forcibly replaced - essentially, his final action was to give up in frustration and wish his own death.

As for self-voting being a scum tell, I can only go by my own games but I'll give you the full list of players who have self voted.

saberwolf as town here
Raskol as town and peabody as scum here
Fallen angel as town here
Idiotking as town here

There may be more, but I think that's it. Either way - I've just had this exact argument with another town about 5 days ago when saberwolf self-voted in the top game. That is why I was pressing him for his views on CSL. They were consistent. (If he's said CSL was likely to be scum because of the self-vote, TRAP SPRUNG saber is scum, but not to be.)

The essence of my argument is that self-voting hold no value for scum and town. It's anti-town if you're town and anti-scum if you're scum. It's stupid, not playing to your win condition and deserves a replacement. But it's not indicative of one alignment or the other, it's indicative of BAD PLAY.

You can read as much of it as you like in the other game, but essentially that's the point. ANd it's a point Saber would know well because he was the one I asked the mod to forcibly replace when he started self-voting, but semioldguy is less ruthless than dramonic so we had to deal with him. In this game, CSL hands over the mantle and you can start getting actual reads on me.

[SerialClergyman]

tl:dr -

Top picks for scum, Shotty, Konowa, Neto.
Top picks for town, ABR, farside.

CSL was bad, not scummy. He's been replaced, get on with the game.

Vote in tl:dr so Mod doesn't miss it:

Vote Shotty to the Body

[SerialClergyman]

Heh, wait till you see the saber link in my wall post.

[SerialClergyman]

@ Albert - lol, thanks for keeping me around. Hope you continue to find me good entertainment. I wish I was secretly batman, because batman was a vigilante, and I'd enjoy mafia a LOT more if I was always a vig.

You don't get to get me to switch to your wagon without commenting on any of my reads. Shotty is a better wagon and a viable lynch, if either of thsoe things come knocking I'll reassess. It's also D1, so essentially I'm looking to reserve 4 or 5 players I don't want to lynch and at the end of the day I'll lynch just about anyone else.

Your critique of my point about CSL was unsurprising apart from a few key points.

t can certainly mean that CSL was unsure of his scumbuddies' reaction to a town hewitt getting closer to lynch. Maybe his two partners are either on the wagon or threatening to hammer, and he wants to play the opposing side to not out the scum team. There are a lot of interpretations.

Now, you went through every one of CSL's posts and posted a paraphrase of his 'actual' meaning. Now you're saying there are a lot of interpretations and it could be scummy for a variety of reasons. Lazy hunting. It's like when people say he's either buddying town or defending a scumbuddy - you can't have it both ways. Either you can tell us the secret meaning to all his posts, or there are plenty of interpretations of which some number are scummy.

Aside from that, it's just meh, stuff to disagree on. You reckon he claimed scum, I reckon he gave up as town, I have my role PM, his badness and your bullying to back up my view. You have your 'conditioning' to back up your view. Essentially that just goes to the judges and I get lynched or I don't.

Actually, I'm going to quote that bit for the lulz:

I am conditioned to reflexively suspect the series of posts that CSL made before he was replaced

You don't sound like the joker, you sound like C3PO.

Neto continues to perplex with yet another vote on ABR, this one for full serious. Points for balls, negative points for stupidity/wrongness. I can garuantee with 95% certainty that Albert is town.

Saber - are you thinking of replacing out by any chance?

Ellibereth - your homework is to not play how you've been playing. If you agree with my entire assessment of your play, you are playing in a scummy and unhelpful manner. You aren't a member of the audience, you aren't something waiting to be pushed around by the tides of other people's arguments and opinions. Fire up and find some scum. Make my case not be true, and I won't think you are scum. But I'll give you points for admitting it. Note to hewitt - never discourage players when they admit cases against them. Get frustrated when they refuse to change, not when they acknowledge a negative point agaisnt them.

SttB - I'm going to try to not get into a wall war with you over a D1 scum read. I'll try to summarise some of the key points:

1) You use a lot of AtE in your defence. Did I offend you, or the case against you offend you, or do you regularly get fired up when suspected?
2) I feel at times you are missing the point of what I say, or just have vaugely irrelevent responses. When I say:

when the reality is at about post 160 he said he was prepared to lynch TWO SEPARATE EASY TARGETS in saber and DLA.

You argue against it by attacking the post number (you made your statement around post 100 - your post around 160 was moving on to your next attack) and by attacking the difference between 'vote' and 'lynch'.

Right at 160 huh. My only post on that page was about Kikuchiyo's fucking avatar, amazing how you provide outright misinformation in your post.

Well that's just a whole crapload of semantics. Whether your post was around 100 or 160, the point remains that very early on you showed a clear intention to attack two easy targets. Whether you said vote or lynch, you showed a clear intention to attack them and push for them to be lynched. The point is that early in this game, you attacked two easy targets. Then when arguing against farside, you accuse her of going after an easy target!

No amount of semantics deals with the point I raised. That is a hypocritical stance, whether the post was 100 or 160, yes?

The same sort of thing can be said about:

The fact you try to prove that I've only been following the "easy lynches" using quotes from page 5 is pretty sad.

So what? Page 5 is no longer relevent?

Of course there's always more unmentioned, the good wrap-up to any legitimate case.

meh

3) Pretty random attacks. Things like:

I find it amusing how badly you want to disprove the link between DLA and ABR. Let's see the posts that relate them shall we.

Well, why do I want to do that? It's easy enough to throw out the thought, but I don't think you think I'm scum, and I'm not sure what you think about ABR, but the only reason I'd want to disprove that link was if I was scum with both ABR and DLA. Any other scum alignment combinations would see me want to keep that alignment link between ABR and DLA in tact, and obviously if I'm town I am just looking for the truth.

So why say it? Did you even think through the implications of the action you were assigning my motivation to?

Same sort of thing here:

I also like how you continually try to tie my case on Hewitt to ABR when we voted for entirely separate things and I developed my own case as I talked to Hewitt which ABR later added onto his reasons Hewitt was scummy.

You and ABR attacked him in tandem. What reason to I have to tie you, my suspect, with ABR, the person I think is the most obvtown in the game? Another crack about what I'm intentionally trying to do that makes no sense.

Absolutely must be your favorite, good to see you devoid of the original thinking you criticize everyone else for not having by mimicking farside's points.

Are you trying to say that I've been devoid of original thinking? Do you think most of my main post was recycled stuff? If not, then why mention it? I'm not trying to claim credit for it, it was duly raised by farside and I'm merely saying that I agree with it 100%. I was NKed in a game recently where I found scum D1 and pushed his wagon very hard specifically using this tell.
But you had no defence to it, or no reason for why you felt you had to have one lynch first then the other. You just attack it for not being original. You aren't addressing the concern at all.

4) Your case against DLA. I'll give you some points for this bit, because it was more extensive than I appreciated with my reread. But it is still against an EASY TARGET. Now, if you were a player to go after anyone who looked 'scummy' according to the dummies guide to mafia, you would be voting CSL, not defending him. So I know you have it in you to defend players who are new or bad, and I know you have it in you to criticise other players for going after bad or new players. But I also know that for almost the entire game, those are EXACTLY THE PLAYERS YOU YOURSELF ARE GOING AFTER.

And post 219 you were accusing hewitt of misrepping ABR and were on hewitts wagon with ABR.

You then say nothing negative about ABR at all, stay on the hewitt wagon, line up the next lynch after hewitt to be DLA.

Then in post 381 you say ABR is obv scum! And what, hewitt, the guy you've been pushing as scum for pages now is presumably town, unless you think ABR was bussing hard. I don't see you making that turnaround. How did you get from I'm on a wagon with townABR looking to kill scumHewitt to scumABR has been coaching a buddy to push a mislynch case on townHewitt. I just don't see that total 180.

---

Ugh.. I've just wallposted after saying I'd try not to. Sorry guys, I will genuinely try to cut down soon. I just feel I'm onto something and I don't want shallow theatrics (you'd LIKE to eliminate the link between ABR and DLA, wouldn't you?? ) take away from a solid case.

I also found another lining up lynches:

Ridiculous, fine. DLA tomorrow.

unvote vote CSL

Ugh.

[SerialClergyman]

Just read some of his games. ABR loves playing town because he gets more of an ego boost from ripping apart scumteams and bending the town to his will than from sneaking around trying to get mislynches. (Feel free to correct me if I've got this wrong - no offense intended )

Look at the ripe abandon with which he's played this game. If he's faking this level of enthusiasm and drive then he's got me hook line and sinker.

Then add onto that what seems like genuine scumhunting to me (albeit poor hunting) and a presence around the town - I mean the man told me he was going to leave me alive because I was funny. Sheeeer arrogance. He'd never say that as scum, but he's ballsy enough to say it as town, to feel like (often justifyably) he can turn the entire town onto a wagon.

Ugh - I know I'm not being as concrete as you'd probably like, but I love ABR's playstyle and I just sense it big time. It's just obvious to me. Read some of his games and you'll see what I mean, I think.

[SerialClergyman]

I try to use at least one name when I start a block, but I see I didn't above. It's pretty obvious if you read in post who my quotes are, but for clarity - the first two are ABR and the rest are Shotty.

[SerialClergyman]

Nero - You think he's scum and you've seen me out and out defend him D1 without any flips or anything concrete.

What does that make me? Did my answer sway your read?

[SerialClergyman]

farside - that's actually the kind of language tell that I hate. I'm sure I've said something similar, I often say 'blah is town' or 'blah is certainly scum'. If you are actually scum you can control that. Any decent player can be careful to say 'if they flip...' or 'we were right' not 'the town was right'. It's just easy to circumnavigate, so once the tell is common knowledge, it's pretty worthless. I wouldn't put much stock in that quote you posted at all, to be perfectly honest.

[SerialClergyman]

I agree about the tone and everyone chilling out a bit, I disagree that because it got heated there must not be anything substantial to the argument.

I disagree on a fundamental level about lining up lynches. Saying you want to lynch someone, then if they flip town lynch someone else is fundamentally scummy play. That is, in a nutshell, a description of exactly how the scum work, going from mislynch to mislynch. I'm genuinely surprised at ABR for not agreeing with me on this point.

I'm possibly biased because in the following game, bigmc as scum does exactly this here:

Yes, muh is looking pretty bad, and

if Staple flips town, I'll definetely be voting muh tomorrow.

But because of what I just said, I'm really liking my Staple vote right now.

and I nail him as town on it here:

crypto -

lining up lynches in D1 on townflips is absolutely a scumtell.

Saying if A turns up scum we should lynch B is fine, because you're looking at scumteams. But saying if A is town, we should move on to B is an easy way to get a couple of mislynches, andin this case they were two juicy targets. It looks to me like bigmc went for lynchbait number one and signalled his intent to turn on lynchbait number two (and co-voter of staple) the next day.

I encourage anyone who is keen to read all about it here. I've always thought it was a scumtell and am at least surprised to hear ABR dismissing it.

And to be specific - lining up who you're going to hit next if your target flips scum is fine - that's just looking for scum teams. What I specifically find scummy is someone saying I want to lynch this person because I think he's scum, but if I'm wrong about that and he's actually town, I ALREADY KNOW MY NEXT LYNCH. This is outright scummy. It ignores the fact that you were wrong about your first instinct, it ignores informaiton from the wagon and the night kill, it encourages another target without thinking about how the game has changed and it allows scum to have their cake and eat it too when picking sides. It's enough for a D1 vote any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I'd also point out that one of ABR's best attribute is his ability to push the town around, which is awesome, except when he's wrong or off on a tangent, in which case it's irritating. But you don't have to be swept along, if you actually look at his posts they're a lot less powerful than they appear.

I want you to stop focusing on farside or SC, and start playing the game aggressively as you should. *You* make a case on Neto. Go and convince yourself. I already know who I'm lynching today.

This, for example, sounds a lot better than it is. Essentially, all he's saying is that he cbf to post a case.

You are a stubborn person in general, and I wouldn't know how to ask you to drop this matter, but Shotty is most likely town, and we sure as hell ain't gonna vote him off because of you and SC.

This is to try to push down the fact that there's currently 3 people on shotty's wagon, the equal biggest wagon in the game, tied with DLA (ahem, not Neto, who has 1 vote - ABR's.) Plus there were a few people who at least thought my initial case was good, even if they haven't joined the wagon yet.

Albert - your wagon has LESS people agreeing with it, there are MORE than just me and farside who are voting, let alone those who think shotty is scummy and you have no right to speak for whom 'we' sure as hell will or will not vote off. If you want people to agree with you and join your wagon, including myself, actually build a case. I've already made a start for you.

Also - it gets old hearing that the case you worked hard on and filled with quotes and genuine evidence is 'etheral' and that I'm a crazed player picking on a townie when you've done bugger all to find any evidence for your case andh ave less support form that town you supposedly speak for than I do. I like you and your playstyle, but an element of respect for trying hard in a difficult situation would be awesome too.

[SerialClergyman]

So then get on shotty's lynch and if it's town we'll deal with it then. If he's scum, we'll rip through this game and be home in time for tea. If you think my case is disengenuous, point out why.

I'm not bragging because someone is joining my case, I'm saying that your rhetoric of saying that the town won't join a case that SC and farside is pushing is utterly hypocritical coming from someone sitting alone in your vote on a player you've made no effort to convince people is scum.

I get that you are a 'creating' rather than 'joining' wagons guy, and you're not usually content to voting along with someone elses scumreads, but you don't have to use rubbish characterisations like that to try to bring it down and bring yours up, use some genuine reason. It's a team game, mate, and although I love your balls, I think you forget it sometimes.

[SerialClergyman]

I'll tell you then that we sure as hell ain't gonna vote him off due to you and Elli!!


Neto is a worthwhile lynch too. I love that Elli psyched up and did his own work. I'm feeling much better about him. I'll stick with shotty because I think he's scummier, but save my place for the bus if it looks hopeless for him.

[SerialClergyman]

Yeah, look, Elli just rained on my parade pretty damn hard to be honest... Are the mafia daytalkers in this game? I wouldn't put it past you to have organised that just to put me in my place...

[SerialClergyman]

ABR - I was saying that the bus was MY bus of NETO, because you've been linking us together as scum. It was a JOKE, as indicated by the yellow grinning man. How do you not get that? I've never said you were anything approaching scum all game...

[SerialClergyman]

Ebwop.

ABR

Albert

[SerialClergyman]

Yes, I did.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh whoops.

Sorry, I'm reading this on my phone and you quoted a different passage.

I made one joke about you getting elli in to rain on my parade and unvote at the worst possible time for the argument about town support. I was not accusing you of anything, clearly you didn't cook that up, it wad just a coincidence he decided then to post.

I then made another joke about saving me a place on the neto wagon to bus him.

The moral of this story - refrain from making too many one liners in this game.

[SerialClergyman]

You joked about bussing your partner Neto? Is that it?

Yes, I did.

So you're admitting that Neto is your partner.

[SerialClergyman]

Hahaha

you may laugh, but saberwolf is very impressed.

/wrists.

[SerialClergyman]

Neto - he knew damn well there was no slip there, hence his laughing when I just rolled my eyes at the accusation. The whole point of the joke was that obviously I wouldn't be admitting that I was bussing if I were scum. He was just being facetious. That's what posts 688, 689 and 694 were about.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, were you seirous? Did you think that this comment wasn't deliberate?

I'll stick with shotty because I think he's scummier, but save my place for the bus if it looks hopeless for him.

[SerialClergyman]

Albert?

Sorry, were you seirous? Did you think that this comment wasn't deliberate?

I'll stick with shotty because I think he's scummier, but save my place for the bus if it looks hopeless for him.

[SerialClergyman]

I would like this to be expanded upon. What are you concluding from a shotty scum-flip?

The most importnat thing for me would be that hopefully suspicion on me due to CSL's bad play (and again, the question of what he did that was scummy vs bad has never been adequately raised) will be lessened and so I have more political captical to push wagons. At the moment, I'm hamstrung by Albert and the sway he carries.

In terms of groupings, though, I think it'll go some way towards clearing Albert and DLA. Also probably saber. It'll point to Elli scum since he jumped on then jumped off and voting the instigator of the wagon (myself). It'll probably close to clear farside as well. I think his lynch provides a lot of info.

[SerialClergyman]

Albert?

Sorry, were you seirous? Did you think that this comment wasn't deliberate?

I'll stick with shotty because I think he's scummier, but save my place for the bus if it looks hopeless for him.

[SerialClergyman]

I aksed Albert to reserve me a place on the Neto wagon so I could bus Neto.

Albert bizarrely seems to think that rather than an intended joke I made deliberately, this was instead a slip because I was distracted and I outed my being scum to the world without realising it.

I want him to confirm his view.

[SerialClergyman]

Albert - is that a yes? You seriously believe that? This is actually very important.

[SerialClergyman]

It won't be for lack of trying.

[SerialClergyman]

Aaaaaaalbert....

This is a significant point. If you're pushing your wagon saying I've claimed scum, have the balls to come out here and say that you honestly believe that was an unintentional slip.

And even more importantly, have the balls to reassess your position if it's obviously based on a falsehood.

[SerialClergyman]

Just wait a little while. Albert is a lot of things but not prepared to answer questions about his position isn't one of them. I'm sure he'll give me a direct answer soon enough.

[SerialClergyman]

While I'm on this tack - was this serious as well, Albert?

Farside, I'm sorry on Shotty's behalf. Now check this out:

Yeah, look, Elli just rained on my parade pretty damn hard to be honest... Are the mafia daytalkers in this game? I wouldn't put it past you to have organised that just to put me in my place...

Scummy as hell. Clergyman, you've been stroking my e-dick all game praising me as town and talented, and here you accuse me of being scum with Ellibereth. For your information, there is no day-talking in this setup, but your quick, careless turnaround is proof that you're a scumbag mascaraing in sheep's clothing.

Unvote, vote clergyman

Farside, you have to choose. Am I right about him, or are you going to defend SC?

[SerialClergyman]

Well, we are not going anywhere, and truthfully, I am growing away from Mafia as we speak.

Unvote:

Vote: CSL

Yes, you guys are right. One down...one to go. Can you find the last scum? We'll find out soon enough.

Go Scum!

Eh, I'd replace out, but it wouldn't do anyone any good, now will it?

The only way I'd get out of this game is if I Unvote and quite possibly Vote: CSL

I had fun, but there are some kinks I need to work on, and it won't do in this game

Say what?? They are similar IN NO WAY. In the first he actually legitimately claims scum. He says go scum in his post for God's sake. He acknowledges he's been caught. In the second game, he does no such thing. He is disappointed at his game. He's sorry to the group, thinking about replacing out but feeling it wouldn't help.

These are actually importantly different events. I can't defend self-voting, it's horrible for either alignment. But it does NOT make CSL more likely to be scum in this case- there are significant differences in those two posts.

The correct way to deal with a self-voter in my mind is auto replace and forget about them. That's why not 7 days ago I was having this exact argument with people who wanted to lynch saberwolf in a different game and asked for a mod replace.

The only lynch I would have supported would be a policy lynch to discourage self voting, but forcible replacement has the added advantage of discouraging the action and then giving you a real player to judge.

[SerialClergyman]

Defeatist =/= scummy. It also isn't similar to when he was defeated as scum and was upbeat, jovially said that they got him and cheered on his team.

When he does it in this game, that's clearly not his mood, he's downbeat and almost apologetic at his own play.

And I don't understand this bit at all -

Now just for the game voting for oneself without defending yourself can be looked at as a null

but I don't know anyone I can think of who replaces out unless they are sick of mafia. He's still playing other games just fine.

He was forcibly replaced out... The mod kicked him out of the game because self-voting was essentially against the rules (not playing to your win con).

[SerialClergyman]

So instead of asking to replace out first he vote himself? I'm really tired of seeing sttb, now neto excusing CSL based on meta. Player does something and is scummy but typically acts scummy doesn't mean he is not scum.
He never came on to defend himself once. Nothing, zip, zero, nothing, nada. So yes being a defeatist is scummy. If he said something like I'm sorry my play is detrimental and wish to be replaced or something to that effect I wouldn't not even argue about his comments with his self vote.

farside, that's dodgy logic. If he never defends himself, he's by definition not more scummy for not defending himself.

You're perfectly correct in saying such a person is a detriment to the town and you have a right to call for a policy lynch, specifically because he is unhelpful and impossible to read because he's always bad.

However, the time for that has passed. He's now gone - the threat to the town that the policy lynch would have solved is gone with him. It's now me. So the argument that says his terrible play needs to be eliminated is over. And any argument that says he is more likely to be scum ignores the fact he does this crap over and over as any alignment.

[SerialClergyman]

You're saying "CSL as scum"?

Yes, when CSL was scum in another game, that was his post.

The second quote is the one he wrote in this game where he is town.

I posted them side by side so you can see how different they are.

[SerialClergyman]

Has your view changed now that ABR is going after you as he is?

No, I totally expected it. The one thing that gives me pause is his odd actions towards my jokes and subsequent refusal to acknowledge or comment on it. But aside from that, it's just stanard Albert procedure as far as I can tell. He told me as soon as I replaced in he would be gunning for me and I'm almost certain I won't be able to dissuade him, so it's irritating, but not scummy.

Why are you uncertain about hewitt? What in your read leads to this uncertainity

I don't understand hewitt's relationship with Albert and vice versa. There was a time where they were hammer and tongs at each other's thraots. Albert insinuated CSL was scum with hewitt and seemed to push that line for a while and now not so much. And hewitt, now that he's avoided the Albert push, seems to be doing whatever he can to avoid the spotlight again. Is it a townie taking refuge? Is it scummy? It's hard to say. Hence he's hard to read.

On one post you criticize neto for talking about policy lynches but then mention it yourself. What is the difference between someone suggesting it without using those words and actually saying it?

In my opinion, not stating whether a lynch is policy or scummy is a scumtell. It has that stink of pushing a wagon against an easy target. It makes the suggestion come from a place where you don't care about whether they are scum or not. Basically - scum would take either reason, town shouldn't. Therefore not specifying your reasons is scummy because you're happy to ride either reason.

In your post against sttb you call him out for going after an easy target. With DLA and saber why would he ignore kik or even CSL then as neither have been stellar in this game.

Fair point, but lets face it, we aren't spoilt for choice here. The key thing I'm getting at here is scum need reasons for their positions. That's how scum work. They find a reason to vote the townie then rely on that reason to avoid suspicion. So people who attack anti-town players can always point to their anti-town behaviour, whether that's self-voting, lurking, unconventional posting/thinking or anything else.

Neto attacks Albert when he doesn't have to - town points. Why would scum bring the retaliation on themselves like that? You attack Shotty and ALbert as well as me - seems to me like you're genuinely looking for scum. Shotty has done nothing like that, just hitting a small group of players who won't defend themselves and who he can point to a string of anti-town behaviour to explain his vote. Does that explain it?

As for his not attacking other soft targets, I can only posit that there's lots of soft targets. Defending CSL for example could well have been a way of avoiding what looked like an inevitable wagon after the self vote. He didn't need to attack every soft target, just a couple so he could have somewhere to park his vote and some solid reason to deflect suspicion.

i don't know or really see a case you present on neto.

Well, that was all there is, but you'll have to grant me a little slack - I've been posting a hell of a lot trying to push my main cases and not get myself lynched. I've given some indication of why I thought he was scummy before Albert and Elli made their cases. At the moment, there's also some self-preservation there because he seems to be actively defending me, and I need all the help I can get to stay alive. You might consider that scummy, but it's simple pragmatism, I'm afraid.

You had the comment about Neto being someone you would vote but I think it's just following Albert's logic

I'm almost certain I gave reasons to vote neto before albert did. He was voting, but just in a 'I'm both experienced and brilliant and he's scum gogo' way. I think that Neto's group of targets were relatively soft - but his efforts against Albert, misplaced as they are, show some spunk. You may have caught me on a slightly weak case, but then it is D1 and as I said, I've had other fish to fry.

Final comment: You showed 4 or 5 people as town that self voted. My statment about self votes as town was ignored. Can you point to me a player that was town that did not self vote in anger or that was saberwolf?
Would you disagree that statistically speaking a player that self votes is 90% more likely to be scum?

Actually, I showed every person who has ever self voted in any of my games, of which only one was scum. If you have a look at that list again, you'll notice that in Commie Mafia there were two self-voters, one was scum.

In my personal experience, literally all but one person who has self-voted was town. I do disagree that statistically speaking they are likely to be scum, in fact I'd argue probably it's more likely to come from town. However - it is NOT to be condoned or accepted, and I think as a policy lynch it's totally fair, UNLESS THAT PERSON IS REPLACED.

Our experiences on them being likely scum are different, it seems, but both in my experience and opinion self-voting is not indicative of alignment.

I've just found some posts in two seperate games and a theory discussion where you can see this view espoused by me.

My post in mafia discussion about self-voting (full version here:

I think there's been some odd points about scumminess of players that in no way relates to whether they are actually scum.

On D3 I read Raskol as town, both in spite of or and perhaps because of his self-destructive behaviour. I unvoted after he self voted, correctly read him as town and told the town that there were two scum out of a set of three different players.

I was right both in where the scum were and in where the town were, but was too scummy at that stage and was lynched, partially for the unvote. We won in lylo due to the claims, and my reads were essentially unnecessary.

I have no problem with the argument that I shouldn't have unvoted because encouraging self-voting is a bad idea. I support that policy and after the game I felt a little dirty that I got my town read based on that play, and I wonder if upholding the integrity of the 'town rules' on the site was more important than winning this particular game.

What I don't accept is that he was automatically very likely to be scum while doing it, I was automatically very likely to be scum while unvoting and thinking on it and somehow the result is totally in a vacuum in a world that shouldn't have happened. I understand that appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy and in effect this is an extension of that, but you need more than logic to read someone in the game and by the end of the day I was almost certain raskol was town. To blithely say he should ahve been lynched because he was more likely to be town without reading the game, let alone being in my shoes, is somewhat presumptuous and just inaccurate to my mind.

tl:dr - Policy vote, yes. Totally ineffective in every scenario, no.

Commie mafia here

Raskol's AtE are starting to get at me. The self-vote stuff is bad play, but it's also (in my experience) been almost exclusively town. He also is hardly pushing a lynch, preferring to get into pissing contests (is that phrase uniquely Australian?) with charter (and sometimes myself) that do little to advance the agenda.

and most recently picking simplicity here

Well, typically I find thsoe people aren't scummy at all, but because they play badly they are regarded as such. Playing in such a way as to attract immediate suspicion on yoruself for no gain (in general, not just in saber's particualr case) has zero motivation for town or scum. Thus you need to deduce that it has no bearing on alignment. I see no town motivation (apart from lol reactions which is terrible and I only mention it out of completeness) for his actions, but I see no scum motivations either.

So as you can see - this isn't something I've invented overnight, it's something I genuinely believe. If your experience is different it's hard to change without doing some long statistical analysis. But I've had 10 games, 5 self-votes and 4 towns out of that group, and I think I've got the theory to explain why it isn't a scumtell - because it's stupid for either alignment.

Anyway, it's late and I'm going to bed.

[SerialClergyman]

And self-preservation takes a U-turn

I love it when Ojanen wins the game for me. Neto is a good lynch. Not a mason, if he's town we get a lot of info and if he's scum we're one scumbag down with some good leads on the second.

I'd hammer but Ojanen asked us not to and I like Ojanen.

How long did you think you'd be? 24 hours of sitting here waiting for your leftover reads doesn't seem ideal..

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not just ready, I'm salivating over the prospect.

Neto didn't just defend me, he ended up taking the bullet for me

[SerialClergyman]

Actually, KittyMo replaced that guy who hasn't said a single thing all game and hasn't caught up, apparently. That surely has to be one of the scummiest slots in the game.

Just saying.

[SerialClergyman]

DLA - I'd hammer right now.

[SerialClergyman]

What I think you don't understand is the position I was in when I replaced in. I had Albert pushing my wagon, a self-voting player who was terrible and everyone wanted to lynch. I took a big breath and decided that my goals for today would be to get the people I thought were most likely to be scum out in the open so that when I died the town could have a look at them and my contribution would be valid. My second goal, and one I didn't think I would achieve, would be to live.

As it stands, it looks like I'll achieve both goals. And to boot, we have a wagon on one of the scummier members of the town. I am totally happy with today.

[SerialClergyman]

Neto - you have claimed vanilla townie. There is no reason to keep you alive. You're scummy, your cases have been bad (Albert remains town) and Ojanen has stitched you up completely.

Plus your wagon will give us plenty of info. Speaking of which, if you're town I would have expected that you'd have accepted your lynch and given us your scumreads and things to go by for when you were confirmed. What's happened there?

[SerialClergyman]

Oh spare me.

It looks like you're complaining about how you were caught, not that you were wrongly caught. Fact is Ojanen made a case against you, I made a case against you, Elli made a case against you and we all did that without anybody holding our hands. You are a good day one lynch full stop.

You have 5 minutes for last words then I'm hammering. Last chance to be productive if you're town, or continue whining if scum.

[SerialClergyman]

STOP.......................



Hammertime.

unvote, vote Neto

So are you scum?

[SerialClergyman]

Taking all bets.

I'll give 2:1 odds on town, if anyone is game.

Neto disappearing and not bah posting is pretty much a conviction imo.

[SerialClergyman]

What about it do you think was sudden given I've said from D1 that Neto was among the scummy?

[SerialClergyman]

That would be awesome if true, except that I was the first to post a substansive case on him and have always said he was amongst my top suspects.

From the tl:dr after my summary:

Top picks for scum, Shotty, Konowa, Neto.
Top picks for town, ABR, farside.

[SerialClergyman]

Kiku - my responses are no and no.

Neto is the right lynch. It will definitely tell us the most about the town.

farsied - I wasn't lining up lynches, I was pointing out a scummy player. I wasn't saying we should lynch kitty tomorrow, I was saying that a player slot that has literally said zero for 38 pages is a dodgy slot.

[SerialClergyman]

OK, too far. No more of the personal stuff please, it's against the rules of the game but more importantly it's not any fun.

[SerialClergyman]

Zzz.

Posts on point please.

[SerialClergyman]

It's important that we get to hear from Kitty's slot and have the rest of the town comment on the situation before we hammer Netopalis.

why? Seems out of character for you.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow, could you have gone with a more go with the flow scum list? That player slot DEFINITELY needs more posting.

Could you explain how a Neto scumflip or townflip would affect your reads?

[SerialClergyman]

No surprises there, to be honest. Albery was obvtown and Neto was pretty scummy.

I feel pretty happy just with yesteday, to be honest.

Let's continue where we left off - Shotty being scummy, KittyMo being the scummy incarnation of a scummy slot which has never said a word and kiku quickhammering for little reason.

Shotty - what does the town flip of Albert tell you?

Kiku - what gives?

Kitty - a more thorough post please?

[SerialClergyman]

Because we were all specifically waiting for Ojanen to finish her thoughts and to try to get some more content out of KittyMo when you jumped in and hammered. There was more info to be gained.

This makes it worse, when you then use your first post to turn the spotlight on those not on the wagon. It looks like it's possible that you barged your way onto the wagon to bus neto who was surely going down and then the next day proudly declare to the rest of the group that we should hunt off the wagon.

As for Neto, here:

Neto is also a good chance of flipping scum. He's been voting the same lynchbait targets as would be expected. Suggested a policy lynch without having the balls to actually say lets policy lynch someone, which is a scumtell in my eyes. He did have the balls to vote Albert though, which redeems him slightly, because bringing blue-eyed wrath upon oneself isn't always the best option.

I gave some quotes afterwards to show what I meant. It was in my first content post. I believe it was also the first case posted on Neto, although nowhere near as extensive as Ojanen's excellent one. I'll take the hit to the ego and say he wasn't my top suspect and it wasn't the bullseye that Ojanen's was, but it'll go down in my little black book as a correct read, so can't complain.

[SerialClergyman]

Did you read yesterday? I stated the entire day that ABR was obvtown, called Neto's vote stupid but gave him credit for attacking a big pro-town target. I usually find scum aren't prepared to go after players like Albert because they risk OMGUS cases against them, or risk having their cases exposed as bad. I thought Neto attacking Albert was a point in his favour not because Albert was likely to be scum, but because he wasn't just going after easy mislynches, he was actually going after one of th hardest players to lynch in the game.

See these conversations:

SC: How can you guarantee with 95% certainty that ABR is not scum? To me, his latest actions of failing to vote without providing clear logic are classic scum tactics.

Just read some of his games. ABR loves playing town because he gets more of an ego boost from ripping apart scumteams and bending the town to his will than from sneaking around trying to get mislynches. (Feel free to correct me if I've got this wrong - no offense intended )

Look at the ripe abandon with which he's played this game. If he's faking this level of enthusiasm and drive then he's got me hook line and sinker.

Then add onto that what seems like genuine scumhunting to me (albeit poor hunting) and a presence around the town - I mean the man told me he was going to leave me alive because I was funny. Sheeeer arrogance. He'd never say that as scum, but he's ballsy enough to say it as town, to feel like (often justifyably) he can turn the entire town onto a wagon.

Ugh - I know I'm not being as concrete as you'd probably like, but I love ABR's playstyle and I just sense it big time. It's just obvious to me. Read some of his games and you'll see what I mean, I think.

Nero - You think he's scum and you've seen me out and out defend him D1 without any flips or anything concrete.

What does that make me? Did my answer sway your read?

It did persuade me somewhat that ABR's play may be the result of his pro-town style...although, that being said, I've played in two games with him - one with him as scum and one with him as town. He was actually more sullen and less useful in the one in which he was town. I do know of his reputation in the manner that you discuss, though.

Your defense of ABR does not necessarily paint you as scum if ABR flips scum - it only does so if your defense is for weak reasons. I've often inadvertently defended scum players as town before, as I am sure that everyone else has. The trick is to see whether the defense is irrational or not, in my opinion.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry I haven't posted as much as I'd like, I'm really struggling for access and issues in other games have demanded my attention.

I think you missed the point of my argument, kiku.

The timeline goes..

Neto at L-1, talk of hammering but everyone decides to wait for Kitty and Ojanen.
Kiku jumps on the wagon and hammers.
--- Night ---
Kiku's first post says we should focus on those not on the wagon and goes through them all.

It seems possible to me that you pushed yourself onto the wagon and are now tryign to direct suspicion away from it.

Serial: Why would you call a player slot that has close to no posts scummy? It seems it was mostly because of RL reasons...

Well, there was one post by KittyMo and it looked suspicious. When you replace into the game and give your own version of events, you generally wouldn't necessarily find the biggest wagon the most scummy. Yet she had neto at the top of her list. It's possible that she came in and just happened to pick the same scum we were wagoning, but it just didn't ring true to me.

Also, lurking is one thing but two seperate players who have posted so little don't look good to me. We'll see how Kise goes now that he's replaced in but from what I've seen I haven't liked that slot so far in the least.

I think Elli brings up a good point about Shotty but I had this to add - at the same time that Shotty was saying Albert was scum with DLA, he then turned around and buddied Albert pretty hard and started to talk his way onto the Neto wagon. I don't usually join the wagon of my top suspect nor do I 'talk to them about it' first. I thought that was particularly odd.

Would lvoe some content from Kise.

[SerialClergyman]

Elli - odd in a bad way. Do you usually take time out from persuing someone you think is scum to talk your way onto the wagon they've been pushing for days?

Ojanen - No, I thought I was hammering then, I don't do false vote gambits, I think they are unsporting. From memory I wanted to hammer, but then you asked us not to, then you said you'd be 3 days or something so I placed a vote I thought was a hammer. Then it wasn't, and Albert asked to hear more from you and Kitty, then Kitty posted once and I tried to engage her, and you hadn't posted any more catchup stuff and then kiku came out of nowhere and placed the hammer.

That's how I remember it, so I could be off base.

@ kiku - I think you're asking for an unfair burden of proof. The theory that you pushed yourself onto the wagon for a bus and then turned around to the group and told everyone to hunt off the wagon is a solid theory - it doesn't need me to point out who the two people on the wagon are. I think that yes, you do have some town motivation for looking off the wagon, generally that's the best place to find scum for a scum lynch. But what I'm saying to you is you came within a gnat's breadth of not being on the wagon. I consider you 'barely' on the wagon, and the reason for that is your oddly timed hammer. It came during a time where plenty of others could have hammered earlier but specifically were not to respect the wishes of a couple of players. I think you were the least 'on the wagon' of the entire group, to be perfectly honest.

Kise - where are you? At all close to a catchup post?

[SerialClergyman]

kiku, I engaged Kitty as best I could - I questioned her post at the time and thought it was suspicious. I stand by what I said, and she was never given the chance to respond. I'm still awaiting Kise's thoughts.

I did disapprove of the hammer, I asked you to explain it before hte lynch scene was posted, which you never responded to.

My suspects at the moment are shotty, you and Kise.

I don't know what to think about DLA. He has been unfairly classified as a VI when he's not, although his posting style is gruff and lacking in explanation at times. Shotty being very aggressive towards him on D1 makes him more likely to be town in my eyes.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow kiku, I apologise and was totally wrong. I iso'd myself to make sure I had said something and found that I had indeed asked you what gives, so made that point, but of course that was today, not last night. I totally retract anything that said I questioned it yesterday. As you say, after I questioned Kitty on her catchup post I never made it back to the thread.

Do you usually hammer after someone is at L-1 for quite a while or did you ahve a special feeling this time?

I think Saber is probably town. I don't know why, his play reads horribly in a vacuum, but I have experience with him in another game and I hold him to very different standards. I jsut think he's town *shrug*.

[SerialClergyman]

You guys can't have this both ways, either I buddied up to ABR to get on the Neto wagon or I didn't want to lynch Neto. I don't really feel like I buddied up to ABR at all, ironically SC of all people mentions this who was kissing ABR's ass from square one. I would've been down to lynch Neto if I couldn't have DLA lynched, but I sort of had finals to do.

The problem isn't buddying - thep roblem is he was scum according to your theory of the game. I thought Albert was town, i said so repeatedly and make no apology for it. You outlined a theory that you fought tooth and nail for, apparantly, that had DLA scumbuddies with ABR and then just sort of stopped that theory and started buddying Albert by pushing to 'talk to him' about the Neto wagon. You don't see anything wrong or unusual about that?

[SerialClergyman]

DLA - your case beautifully and extensively proves that Neto was defending me and buddying me all day.

Here's what it doesn't show:

When I replaced in, I was dead for all money. Rampage had decreed it, CSL had self-voted and it looked like I was in trouble.

Neto, at this point in the game,

decided that it was time to defend me

. He did this

despite initially calling for a policy lynch on CSL

. There is an obvious dynamic here - defend the townie who is about to get lynched. When the tables turned and he was on his deathbed, he did the next best thing to defending a townie - drawing a direct link between himself and a townie.

If I'm his partner - I'm not sure what you are thinking was the point of doing all this. He had no power within the town, so his defence wasn't going to get me off the hook. It seemed certain I was going to be lynched when Albert went so far as to ask the mod to give me a different role so he wouldn't have to immediately lynch the person he just asked into the game. So what do YOU think scum does in the face of someone else having an inevitable lynch? Neto had every opportunity to get on my wagon and didn't - he chose to seperate himself from people attacking me. I think that speaks volumes.

What's more, is you can see that dynamic heat up as the pressure gets piled on. Look at his 696 which comes directyly after Albert starts the second strong push for my lynch. I get 3 votes out of nowhere and there is momentum pushing through for my lynch and Neto chimes up again with his defence. 533 is another example - as the votes start to pile on and my lynch looks more likely, he is more vocal in his defence. You can bet your bottom dollar that his plan tomorrow if I were lynched would be to go after Saber for 'scummy bandwagoning', yet another reason why saber is likely-town.

So yes, Neto defended me, but he defended me in the least logical spots where mafia would defend their buddy. It wasn't subtle, it wasn't informed and it RAMPED UP the more likely I was to getting lynched.

@ Kise - Your player spot is scummy and at risk of a vote from me until you start posting content. Your slot has one piece of content that was scummy and we need more from you ASAP.

@farside - Do you think kiku deserves to be considered to be on the wagon? Do you think there's any hint of opportunism to pushing yourself onto an inevitable wagon and then claiming the next day that the best place to hunt scum is the area where you are not?

[SerialClergyman]

Why would a scum "decide that it was time to" defend a TOWNIE, and therefore put himself in risk of getting lynched?

Exactly when he did defend me - when my lynch seemed inevitable. If you think scum never defend townies then I can't even argue about it, but it's not true, it can't be true or else scum would be ridiculously easy to find.

My argument isn't convaluted or elaborate - it states that when a townies looks for sure like he's going to be mislynched, that's the perfect time for scum to start defending him.

And as I pointed out, you'll note that Neto's strongest defences all came as my lynched looked more and more likely. That is the opposite of what you'd expect buddy --> buddy defense would go.

His massive snap at saber is a perfect example, you've quoted it above. saber joins a group of people voting me that's now at a decent level, Albert is pushing the wagon and so Neto picks up his defence and calls Saber out for vote hopping. You can SEE his mind working, you can SEE how he was planning to go after saber for bandwagoning after the flip, it's blatant. There's no other reasonable explanation.

[SerialClergyman]

That's the WHOLE POINT. By defending me and attacking Saber he shows EXACTLY what he's going to be doing after I'm lynched - going after Saber saying 'I told you so'.

Let me turn that question onto you. Say you're staring into the eyes of your lynch. What do you do?

[SerialClergyman]

Zzz.

If you were scum, staring at your lynch like in Neto's position, what would you do?

[SerialClergyman]

He never had the power nor the intent to stop it. That's why he only really pushed against it when it was looking more and more likely it'd happen.

I'll tell you the one thing you don't do, when your back is against the wall and it is truly a matter of time before you're lynched. The one thing you would never do in that situation is heavily defend a scumbuddy.

If you think that anyone as scum would sit on L-1 with everyone lining up to hammer would push a link between themselves and their buddy then I can't continue this conversation because there's nothing left to say. It just flat out makes no sense.

[SerialClergyman]

1) SC never defends Neto. I've always thought that he was scum since my very first post. I at one point didn't want to lynch him specifically because he was defending me and I needed all the help I could get and I acknowledged it then that it was pure self-preservation. Then a wagon started up on him, it was easier to self-preserve and knock off a suspect so I killed two birds with one stone. Done.

2) If you can ever find where Neto stops defending me, that'd be awesome, because he defended me right up to his lynch, as far as I can see, which is EXACTLY THE POINT.

3) You've hit the nail on the head right here:

1. CSL gets in trouble. Neto joins the attack.
2. CSL gets replaced. Neto goes "Yay" and pulls away the attack.
3. SC is still in trouble. Neto goes "Don't lynch him!!

Now - why is it that Neto ATTACKS CSL when he's in trouble but DEFENDS me? If I was scum, he'd have just kept up with the bus, no reason why not to. In fact, the replacement gave him the perfect cover to slip off the wagon, defend the soon-to-be-townflipped and gett himself some much-needed town cred on the way. Not to mention being able to point fingers and Saber and Albert, a move he was already setting up before the lynch.

These points show EXACTLY why I'm not scum with Neto. If you can explain the difference between him attacking CSL-under-fire and not attacking SC-under-fire any better I'll.. I don't know wtf I'll do, I'll buy you a cookie.

Ugh. I'm totally drained from this conversation. I think it's reached diminished returns, I'll try not to get so explosively frustrated that I type out another one of these posts. I just... I just can't get it across and it's driving me mad.

Going to go have a stiff drink

[SerialClergyman]

PS - here's the quote from D1 when I'm asked about Neto:

Well, that was all there is, but you'll have to grant me a little slack - I've been posting a hell of a lot trying to push my main cases and not get myself lynched. I've given some indication of why I thought he was scummy before Albert and Elli made their cases. At the moment, there's also some self-preservation there because he seems to be actively defending me, and I need all the help I can get to stay alive. You might consider that scummy, but it's simple pragmatism, I'm afraid.

PPS - Shotty also spent a long time defending CSL and me to farside and has been my number one suspect since D1.

[SerialClergyman]

Sup elli, I'm around but haven't dived into the arguments too strongly, still hung over from yesterdays argument with dla!

I do still think shotty is likely to be scum, yes. I'm on my phone, I'll try to do a decent post soon.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh, Christmas is owning my time.

Reading through Ojanen and kiku I'm liking kiku less and less. I don't get why she utterly refuses to acknowledge that her hammer cut off conversation, that her place on the wagon is at least partially opportunistic etc etc. I mean, if she'd come out and said 'yes, I didn't care about the conversation, scum was there to be hammered and I got it done, I don't care that I was late on the wagon, I wanted to make sure he was going down and anyone else can just deal with it. If you don't want to consider me part of the wagon, good on you' then I'd sort of dig the style - reckless but effective. But she's trying to walk this pseudo-innocence line where she won't admit that we were waiting to hammer, won't admit that it cut off discussion, won't admit her position on the wagon is tenuous etc etc. That's not reckless townie :S.

Also her position on me is bizarre.

In any case, self voting is not a scumtell. Ever. I would say it more often than not is a townsperson acting stupid. I see nothing which indicates SC as scum. It seems that we should be lynching Netopalis, ABR, Shotty or Farside.

So this is the first time she mentions Neto, towards the end of the day. She also says that there's nothing to indicate I'm scum.

Then she asks for a vote count, then posts her questionairre thing, then hammers.

The next day she asks us to concentrate off the wagon. BY HER OWN ADMISSION, I call her on it and she starts to attack me.

Funny. If you are going to make an accusation, please back it up. I specifically started the day by saying we should hunt off the wagon. Serial was on the wagon. I am not attacking him and I have not voted him. I am remaining active and responding to everything. If you take the time to reread you will plainly see

that it was Serial who attacked me.

And yet within 3 posts of D2, kiku was calling me scum.

I get that. It just doesn't jive with your assessment(in the same post) that Neto is going after the easy lynchbait targets. You are trying to have it both ways and I think Albert was keenly aware of this issue regarding your stance. Also, omgus cases are terrible so I inherently disagree with your assessment. I think you are Neto's scumpartner and you were trying to fence sit.

As far as I can tell, kiku didn't find me scummy or want to push for my lynch until I attacked her. This also corresponded to a massive rise in activity. She's already typed about as much today as she has the entirety of D1. I'm really, really not getting enthusiastic don't-care-what-you-think town from her description of her hammer and her positions just don't seem to gel.

And THEN apparantly:

Actually, Serial was on the wagon and started the day as my biggest suspect "on the wagon".

*facepalm* This is despite her finding nothing scummy about me D1 (see quote above) and despite this:

No. I am saying that because Neto defended multiple players the way he did, that we might benefit from finding another way to scumhunt than simply trying to determnie who he defended most. Especially among inactive players.

And finally - her first post today asks this quesiton:

Serial: Why exactly did you find Neto scummy? Refresh my memory.

But I never remember kiku ever giving a SINGLE reason why she thought Neto was scum, and only floated the idea (with 3 other lynch options) after everyone else had weighed in and started to find him scummy.

There is much to be suspicious of in kiku's play. I've played with her twice before and I could see lurking, and I could even see unapologetic hamering, but her play today has been contradictory and bizzare.

-----

I don't get DLA going over to Hewitt. I don't think that Albert actually believed Hewitt based on the claim, because quite frankly I don't see much reason why scum would claim mason - it's demonstrably false and if it even required a counter claim (a 3-man voting block and no other masons coming forward would surely prevent that), all it does is expose a mason, which is hardly fantastic for scum. But whether that was his reason or not, Albert deifnitely seemed to dismiss Hewitt as a possibility for scum, and I'm going to trust that read. Plus Neto was shaping up to hammer Hewitt wasn't he?

Having said that, I'd like Hewitt to get in here, his lack of activity is a contrast to yesterday.

DLA - Did you read Ojanen vs kiku? Do you have an opinion on Shotty?

---

Shotty is another person whose activity varies greatly depending on whether he's directly addressed. I think he's scummy for the many points I've already raised and gone over with him. The only new points to add to that really are the fact that Neto flipped scum, he was off the wagon and was pushing for an Albert/DLA scumteam, which looks like a chainsaw to me.

See:

ABR where did you go? I need you to talk about Neto.

Well, Albert has successfully ignored most direct questions this game so far despite attempts to the contrary. I need to reread Neto and someone else,

@Albert: I think I see where you're coming from on Neto, but he still doesn't strike me as poorly as some of the "easy" (aka scum) lynches.

Looks like I missed all the fun while I was writing my final paper.

He then was VLA for 2 days, but still didn't post for over a week.

Sorry guys, going to catch up here in the next couple days or so, I fell pretty far behind in all my games, just caught up in another.

I would've been down to lynch Neto if I couldn't have DLA lynched, but I sort of had finals to do.

That final quote - that just isn't bourne out by his actions and posts at ALL.

Then aside from all that, there were the attacks on Albert once he started ot push Neto.

I encourage everyone to unvote vote DLA. ABR is an obvious scum-buddy to DLA considering how much DLA was vacuumed to ABR's opinions and as newb-scum didn't know any better to hide all the blatant buddying big enough to choke a horse.

Who pushed Hewitt's lynch the hardest? ABR and DLA? Last time I checked pushing mislynches was bad? Hewitt said the same thing in 278. Why aren't you busting his balls?

when earlier he'd said

How is that a misrep? You accuse me and ABR of not contributing (which, at least in my case, is a flat-out lie) and use that as a scum-tell. That would imply that YOU contribute unless you're admitting to being scum? He never said you were a top contributer just that you don't contribute either, so now you're misrepping him.

unvote, vote hewitt

So what changed in ABR's play? Why did he go from WITH Albert and AGAINST Hewitt to WITH Hewitt and AGAINST ABR?

Well, this happened:

I feel this way also. I don't like going for the easy targets on Day 1. You're not an easy target, hewitt, I'll give you that. The problem here, is that you're barraged from all sides and at two dangerous inches from a sudden death. I am not an unreasonable man. I will accept an unconditional surrender of you, hewitt, to me, Albert. If you swear fealty to me, we can hunt down Netopalis. What do you say?

Shotty's first post after this one is 381, quoted above, where he first starts to say that ABR is likely scum.

Finally, his continuing to push the case on DLA smells bad. I really, really doubt that DLA is scum, and Albert's town flip should have shaken that belief more strongly.

---

So where do I sit? Ugh. Not enough nooses.

I'm going to go with kiku for now. They are both good lynches, but I don't know enough about Shotty's play, and he's nothing if not aggressive. He looks to me like it's possible he's feeling out scum and is just totally not on my wavelength.
Kiku on the other hand I have a solid meta on and I know her playstyle quite well. Her play on D1 was relatively standard, but the massive chance in activity, the contradictory positions, the lack of backing her own decisions and everything - that's really set off alarm bells. She's very intelligent and a strong player and I just simply do not get her reasons, thought process or conclusions.

So I'm on board for a kiku wagon. If the above hasn't convinced you, I urge everyone to read OJ vs kiku above, I think it's very clear who's scrabbling for ap osition and who is making sense. If it was anyone but Ojanen I'd declare them town but she's damn, damn good as scum. Call it a townly-indicator.

vote kiku

Shotty - feel free to ask me any questions or respond to any of the above as well, if you get a chance.

I don't know how many more big posts I can make around holiday time. Have a merry Christmas everyone.

[SerialClergyman]

Sleepy and drunk, can't respond properly.

Was saying that Ojanen would be auto-town because of her awesome posts, except she's very sneaky scum so I won't clear her because I fear her (rhyming prowess only rises while drunk.)

I don't know who she'd be buddies with tho. I'm pretty comfortable with Ojanen town.

[SerialClergyman]

Appropriate analysis like the giant wall of awesome directly above you totally nailing shotty? You're weird and wrong and probably eeeeevillllll. Quit trying ot muscle in on my cases. First Netto then then Shotty. I was here first!!

lol

I should go to bed. It's 3am. Gonan disturbin Santa!

btw being sure I'm scum and not voting me is also weeird. You're weeeird.

I like you though You'd get presents if I was Santa.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not going to have another argument about Neto. If you're going to let scum determine your lynch then I can't stop you, but apparantly all you have to do to get a townie lynch is throw a couple of token defences their way and it's game over. Farside, your case is very similar ot DLA's, it shows that he was defending me which I agree with and even acknowledged yesterday in one of my posts. The key thing you have to deteremine is

why

he was doing that. When I replaced in I was almost certainly going to be lynched, it was a perfect opportunity for him to defend a townie and look good. It was NOT a good time for him to defend a buddy because if I were scum I would flip and he would be exposed.

You can see it because he's prepared to attack CSL when he's looking for a lynch, but then changes dramatically after CSL self-votes and starts making excuses for it and defending me. As soon as he saw the self-vote he knew he could defend me and come out of it looking squeaky clean.

Argh. Read my argument with DLA, I don't have the energy. I'm tired of trying to argue these cases about other people's actions. CSL was a terribad ploayer, Neto linked himself strongly to him. YOU try to work out why those things happened, and hint number 1 is that it's NOT because Neto tried to tie himself to CSL scum.

I, on the other hand, have posted a caseo n Neto before anyone else gave reasons why he's scum, I posted the two most comprehensive analyses on Shotty which a lot of people now are saying is my scum buddy and I don't know what else I can do except just try to knock off some scum before they have a chance to keep pushing me.

And luckily this isn't difficult because kiku has absolutely self-destructed.

I don't have time to answer fully, but here are the highlights:

That's not what I'm arguing. I thought Neto was a good lynch candidate. The fact that noone was crossing over to hammer him suggested to me that one of those players was most likely scum if Neto flipped scum. I got antsy. I hammered. Sue me.

kiku put these on seperate lines to make it look bigger. So top marks for arrangement there. But aside from that, these remarks at the start of the day would make me feel more confident about kikutown. Instead they came only after intense pressure from Ojanen and rather than showing reckless town they show someone who is backed into a corner and doesn't know how to get out. She dismissed talk about their even being a problem, tried to get OJ to agree to disagree and then eventually admitted there was a problem but asks so what.

You were one of my top two suspects coming into today.

You were one of Albert's top two suspects from yesterday. I stand by the statement I made earlier that I think we should hunt off the wagon today. Help us find your scumbuddy.

This is a) not true and b) utterly bizarre if it was.
There is ZERO indication that kiku considered me a suspect until I started to attack her. Yesterday, the only posts that mention me are:
1)

In any case, self voting is not a scumtell. Ever. I would say it more often than not is a townsperson acting stupid.

I see nothing which indicates SC as scum.

It seems that we should be lynching Netopalis, ABR, Shotty or Farside.

I think that if we lynch from the pairs of those opposed to one another that we would either hit scum, or reveal that the other player is scum, no? But I guess that circles back to the discussion on setting up lynches.

and 2)

Looks like I missed all the fun while I was lurking.

If Neto flips scum then SC is scum?

If Neto flips town then ABR is scum?

Yes, no, from everyone please.

2nd top suspect from yesterday - what absolute rubbish. And THEN you come into the start of D2, with your top suspect ready to be attacked and you barely mention me until I start pushing you.

Kiku - what gives?

I hammered scum. What's the problem?

Kittymo, Hewitt, Farside, Shotty. Not on the wagon.

I highly doubt both scum were bussing.

I think Shotty is most likely scum, Kise should chime in with a day 1 analysis, and hopefully Scigatt will be more helpful than Saber.

Serial: Why exactly did you find Neto scummy? Refresh my memory.

In fact, you didn't attack me SO MUCH yesterday that you argued it staunchly yourself!

Funny. If you are going to make an accusation, please back it up. I specifically started the day by saying we should hunt off the wagon. Serial was on the wagon. I am not attacking him and I have not voted him. I am remaining active and responding to everything. If you take the time to reread you will plainly see that

it was Serial who attacked me.

And then even if it was true, and even if I was a major suspect, why on earth wouldn't she attack a major suspect? She's done nothing but deliberately NOT attack me all day! She has attacked shotty instead of me while claiming I'm obvious scum? She suggests I'm hypo-scum but insists that we LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR VOTING. No, no, no. Something doesn't sit right there. If you are sure you have found scum, you lynch them. They could be a scum power role, once you kill them an innocent will be killed which will cut down on false readings the next day, you might be WRONG and it's important to know early - the whole thing DOES NOT MAKE A LICK OF SENSE.

Are you afraid of being associated with my lynch? Because dammit, I'm associating you right now. Whether you actually vote me or not, you're linked to me whether you like it or not.

^^^ Not a very protown statement here. Townies should be focused. This is poor play coming from you.

There's a few other barbs but I took particular umbrage at this one because it's a) not true and b) utterly hypocritical to say that. I've been trying to hunt scum as best I can and that does not mean tunnelling down. I've actually got a lot of town reads including saber, DLA, Elli and farside. And then I've made two good cases, one on you and one on Shotty. You came into this day saying we should look at 4 people off the wagon, you said yesterday we should lynch 1 of four players (not including me). Now you're saying townies should be focused? Well if only that was true, because I'm clearly far more focused than you.

Arg, Christmas, gotta fly.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, finally -

This is the SECOND TIME kiku has come in and attacked one of MY suyspects after I've attacked them. First it was Neto, who she did NOTHING to attack all day and then pushed herself onto the wagon as his lynch was inevitable giving NO reasons, now it's Shotty after I've made TWO long posts, one in my first catchup and one just a few posts ago which explain my suspicions. She's never given any reason for either of her attacks, and in fact had the gall to say that I vaugely analysed Shotty's play and she wasn't that impressed.

Well bugger that, I've actually posted two significant cases filled with quotes and reasoning for my suspicions, where are yours, kiku?

I'm not letting her weasel in on my suspicions again. If you want to vote him, post some reasons other than 'Albert said so'. Feel free to quote mine and say you agree with me if you have to.

[SerialClergyman]

In fact, this has really got me up, because I think kiku = scum with Neto, and this is so reminiscant of her play with Neto - get on the wagon with no reasons or scumhunting of her own but claim it as her attacking him.

It led me to do a brief look at her interaction with Shotty and check this out (these are in chronological order D2:

Kittymo, Hewitt, Farside, Shotty. Not on the wagon.

I highly doubt both scum were bussing.

I think Shotty is most likely scum,

Kise should chime in with a day 1 analysis, and hopefully Scigatt will be more helpful than Saber.

Shotty: What do you think of DLA? What do you think of SC?

SC: What do you think of DLA?

Farside: Should we lynch Shotty before DLA/Serial?

Saber: Thoughts?

I'm not sold on Shotty.

Not sure if its just because its the holidays, but we have a few backseaters today that need to post content.

Actually, Serial was on the wagon and started the day as my biggest suspect "on the wagon". I think my stances have been clear. Would you like a town/scum list? Off the wagon,

Shotty is my biggest suspect.

I have been focused on the Shotty/DLA/SerialClergyman grouping from the start.

Yet you

(She's talking about me, SC here)

continue to elevate your status as obvious scum imo.

Vote: Shotty

I'd like Shotty to contribute or hang. SC is most certainly scum, no need to rush him off to the gallows.

SC: I hope that when you do respond, you include an appropriate analysis of someone other than me. (psssy: try your scumbuddy Shotty)

Just realizing you've analyzed Shotty a bit. You seem to think he's scum. You're not going to get me lynched today. Why not hop on his wagon?

Are you kidding? Post 1060 clearly shows that Serial is not paying attention. He says that he would believe me if I said certain things. I quote where I said the exact same things. I haven't dodged anything today. I have responded to everything.

You don't find it odd that he is reluctant to lynch the player who is most likely his scum partner(Shotty)?

SC's arguments today have been pitiful and Shotty's contribution awful.

SC thinks Shotty may be scum, but won't pursue the matter.

Won't persue him??????

So here's what's happening, in my eyes. Kiku is partners with Shotty. She realises that there's a good chance one of them is going to go down, especially if they push my lynch because I'll flip and that's where the town will head. However I start to attack her so she's forced to respond.
Then she goes to work continuing her attempts to tie her scum partner shotty to me. She says that he's very suspicious but doesn't explain why. She says he's her number one case but then says she's not convinced. When I make a massive post explaining why they are both scum, she says I should analyse Shotty a bit - even when it's obvious to all and sundry that I JUST HAD and kiku NEVER HAD. She tries to ignore the fact that I posted the original case on Shotty waaaay back in my first post when I started a small wagon on him.
Shotty is scum with kiku. She's desperately trying to link me with him so that she's admonished of all ties. The evidence in thread clearly shows that I have been attacking him from my very first post and have done so with much more gusto and evidence than kiku ever has.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh.

I just reread the top of that and I realise that I was totally dismissive of a fair point about Neto. He did more than throw a couple of token defences my way, he defended me quite strongly throughout D1. I acknowledge that and I've never tried to deny it, I was just angry about having to have this conversation again when there's real scum to hunt. I think you're town, farside, I think DLA is town, I just think you've been caught up in the WIFOM of scum actions and came down on the wrong side.

The best I can do is point you to my cases against Shotty and kiku, both of which are excellent. If we can get a scum flip sooner rather than later from them that whole defending irritation won't matter.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, this isn't a terrible thing.

I can actually buy this claim. I think kiku trying to play outside of her playstyle and follow Albert's advice is what's led to the total breakdown in communication. Saying things like Shotty was his number one suspect is irritating if only knew and someone else knew it though.

The arguments we had were totally reminiscant to our argument over lynching hockey over TOledo in our first game together, kiku, which was a solid factor in me thinking you were scum. You seemed to have that same logic slip

Seeing you quickhammer as town in that meta also gives me pause.

So - the logical step is to

unvote, vote Shotty

If anyone is wondering whether it's appropriate to claim to back your partner - theory dictates it doesn't matter much because she'll be dead and you'll have to claim then to stop mafia claiming at lylo. So I wouldn't bother.
If anyone is wondering whether it's appropriate to claim in order to expose the fakeclaiming kiku, the answer is yes, absolutely, it's worth exposing a mason to catch one of the two last scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Who's your partner, kiku?

It's better to do this now and get a confirmable town than later and have a questionable town.(Assuming kiku likely NK)

I'm withholding judgment until that(or somebody mentions why we shouldn't reveal her partner.)

This only makes sense if there's no way we can lynch one of the two people claiming the role. Provided her partner claims tomorrow we can believe the claim, because otherwise there would be a counterclaim. If there IS a counter claim, we can lynch whoever we suspect the most first and are garunteed scum that day or the next.

[SerialClergyman]

Elli - are you an alt of anyone?

When you started this game you seemed quite a bit different, lots of following and not much effort or thought. Now you're doing meta research and have quite complex theory answers. Any reason for the change, or just psyched up a bit or what?

[SerialClergyman]

Zzz farside

I hate it when people are like whether this person flips town or scum I'm going to use it as evidence against you.

There's no real down side to outing the last mason, just that the scum have a choice of either mason to kill. I doubt he'll try it.

[SerialClergyman]

farside - the problem isn't with that logic, the problem is:

If shotty flips town you attacked him from the start of the day and pushed his case hard. You must be scum.
If shotty flips scum, he defended CSL along with neto. You must be scum.

Do you get what I mean? It's the fact that no matter what he flips, the indication is his alignment is going to be a factor in a case against me.

But aside from all of that, don't make an argument or I'll vote you is lame and not going to stop me posting

[SerialClergyman]

Ah - I think I see the failure in communication.

Obviously cases that say if blah flips scum you're likely scum or if blah is innocent you're likely scum are fine individually - it's when there's a case

no matter whether the person is town or scum

that I don't like it.

[SerialClergyman]

Well, personally I think if he's town it should be more likely to be suspicious given I've attacked him all day, and if he flips scum I'm not going to just roll over given I've really led the push against him, but at least if you acknowledge that you have that one or the other reasoning I guess I can't complain.

[SerialClergyman]

Yes, getting a touch ahead of ourselves.

Without talking specifics about your earlier play - was there an identifyable reason your play changed so dramatically?

[SerialClergyman]

I the mason claims before lylo I'm fine with holding off. It's only when we're actually in lylo and he claims, then there's a counter claim and we've got a 50/50 to lose the game, which is bad times.

[SerialClergyman]

Epically scummy player slot by the way. Kise posting in other threads does little to appease my suspicion of kittymo, especially given she replaced out as soon as I called her on her catchup post being scummy and Kise hasn't shown his face.

[SerialClergyman]

I have. He's got a history of unusual play and minor inactivity, but this is even more than usual from my experience. In Emerald mafia our team killed him when we were scum thinking he was some kind of power role when he wasn't.

[SerialClergyman]

Lurking to the point of non-participation by two separate players is dicey, let alone three. Then I still consider kitty's post to be dead scummy. You can't tell me her main summary of the game just happened to coincide with the lynch we wanted who happened to be scum. There wasn't enough effort or detail in it. Then Kise comes in, replces in at the start of the day with constant calls for him to post, which he never does despite posting in other games.

Don't you find that scummy?

[SerialClergyman]

It's not a policy lynch if he's genuinely scummy. That sort of posting pattern isn't lurking, it's actively not posting. He's probably scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Very tempted, it seems.

Kise NEEDS to be grilled tomorrow no matter what the shotty flip.

meh I go thru more then just not posting it's going to be based on game play too

Normally me too, but having three separate people flake is much more scummier than one, and it's been for two copmlete days AND the content that we've had has been shocking.

[SerialClergyman]

*is epically surprised that Kise would go with the standard 'CSL woz scum' line*

Honestly, that guy is scum.He should be lynched tomorrow. Shotty scum or not, Kise is no doubt scum.

I'd ask you to re-read the many arguments I've made against the 'Neto was defending you' line, I've never denied it, rather made the obvious point that scum defending a buddy when they or he is about to flip almost certainly has motivations other than trying to save that person, because scum are nothing if not survivalists.

I put the two CSL self-votes side by side in a post, you can SEE the difference in tone, it should be obvious. My defeated comment wasn't made in a vacuum, there was evidence you haven't quoted in order to take a cheap shot.

It was obviously a joke on hewitt, I never seriously suggesting he be policy lynched for quoting albert's posts

If I could kill you tonight, don't worry, I would. Unfortunately the only time I've ever been given the ability to vig I didn't realise I had it and wasted it, but it would be put to perfect use tonight.

The above is a man who has run out of soft options. kiku is almost certainly a mason, many other people look town and have attracted almost no suspicion, so just pile on with the same tired case. No wonder you haven't bothered posting till after we've already lynched our suspect.

[SerialClergyman]

Don't you guys have anything to say about Kise?

[SerialClergyman]

Well, I'm hoping it won't get to that. But yes, I do think it would be of benefit to town if I survived to lylo.

I am the first person to throw my life away if there's a reason for it. I can give you examples where that's happened. My attitude is always team first. However, if I do that it will be on my terms. Every other time I've knowingly been lynched, it's been because I was staunchly advocating who I believed was scum and generally, I'm not bad in my reads.

In this game, that's not true. I would be being lynched because of the way the scum have manipulated the game and because of CSL's terrible play. That is no reason to go down nobly and quietly.

If I was around in lylo, I would be a townie who would make a good choice.

The people who you do NOT want around at lylo are the people who would lynch me because of scum play and CSL play.

Now - I've answered your question but I don't see how it related to kise...

[SerialClergyman]

...

Honestly Scigatt, I get the feeling you're a self-appointed threadcop.

We know exactly what the night kill is almost certainly going to be - what information are you worried about?

[SerialClergyman]

Rubbish. I'd like thoughts about kise and his catch up post or a tangible reason as to why talking about it may benefit scum from anyone who reads this please. I never like it when people try to
cut off content, especially with non existant reasoning and doubly so when they are as scummy as kise.

[SerialClergyman]

Then it won't tax you too much to give, you know, a reason.

[SerialClergyman]

It's hard to draw connections with a player who has barely said anything. It's also hard to speculate when we have shotty's alignment hanging in the balance.

No, I can't give you an answer, I'd just be throwing out a name. Not enough information yet. Lets see what happens with Shotty's flip and we can have a look at how it goes.

Are you going to be govened by the reasonless silence or are you going to be the first to give a genuine reaction on Kise?

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh. I can't handle the waiting. Where's dramonic??

[SerialClergyman]

How do you show 5 separate occasions where CSL has self-voted with a 3/2 split and then use that as an argument to show I'm scum because of it? It's EXACTLY what I've been saying all along - CSL is a terribad player that constnatly self-votes.

The hammer argument is meh. That would mean he'd have to have the self control to not vote himself until he was at the point of hammering, and with ABR pushing him he obviously didn't.

As for Neto - you aren't looking at the situation completely. When I replaced in, I was 100% SET TO BE KILLED. Neto wasn't attracting suspicion, yes, so he also had NO REASON TO CONNECT HIMSELF TO THE PERSON ABOUT TO BE KILLED UNLESS THAT PERSON WAS TOWN. Albert asked me personally to replce in and yet still said he was going to kill me straight away. All Neto would have been doing by defending me at that time was ensuring his lynch would happen right after mine.

I'm used to playing a game with suspicion on me but it's so much more frustrating in this time. I wish someone would use a SINGLE post I'VE made to make a case against me >< I've been in the game for 1.5 days out of two and every time someone votes me I haven't seen a single reference to my play.

Ok. Getting that off my chest. It won't be terrible if I die anway, we just need to get this back on track pretty quickly.

Here's what happened D2 - the scum team, Hewitt and Kise, realised that kiku was arguing with Ojanen and me and Shotty was attracting general suspicion. So they decided they both didn't have to do squat. Hewitt has been active around the site, Kise was hanging around 're-reading' and not posting until after Shotty had been chosen for the lynch, effectively.

They didn't participate in D2 because they didn't have to. The town was doing more than enough to push suspicion on each other. As it turns out, Shotty was town, kiku was a mason and Ojanen is obvtown.

So here's where the flaking stops and the free passes stop. I am almost entirely sure that the scum team is Kise and Hewitt. The only other play that makes sense is one of the less prolific people like farside and DLA being scum and fanning the flames, but I didn't get that impression yesterday and still have prob town reads on farside and DLA.

Hewitt was only active in defending himself. He's never even looked to scumhunt when it was up in the air. He's not just VLA, he's actually deliberately not posting. He is scum.

Kise came in at the end of the day after constantly promising a re-read and he came in with another tired case on poor old Serial who's taken a battering from almost every player slot this game. He didn't do any scumhunting while the town was trying to find scum because we were all infighting. Kise is scum.

Game over. If you guys can't get over CSL's self-vote, that's the road map to winning the game.

[SerialClergyman]

You because the only suspicious thing about you is your ULTRA change in playstyles from D1 to D2. My current theory of the game is that in D2 the scum said nothing because almost all of the major players and arguers were town. I include you in this mix as I include Ojanen, Shotty and kiku.

Scigatt is a little more complicated, but I always have considered him and saberwolf town. I think Ojanen is missing the mark above, althought it's a well thought out case.

Ittieltsiam, you see.

[SerialClergyman]

Ojanen - I'm not putting on an act trying to appear certain when I'm not - sometimes I get a feeling and this is one of those times. I've never tried to discredit people who have had scum reads on me or voted me, all the way from Albert on day 1. What's most important is getting the scum lynched. So if I had doubts, or didn't have any reads, I'd say exactly that. But this seriously fits. Look at how much the town was chasing their tail on D2. Townies vs townies all over the shop. Kiku vs shotty was just the most prominent, there was you and me and shotty all embroiled in it with a pretty big helping of ellibereth, with farside and DLA contributing pretty solidly too. How much scum do you see in that group? How much coordination?

It just makes sense. D2 scum flake hard when it becomes apparant the main suspects are going to be town. They watch us all post our walls against each other. Why on earth would they get involved?

I could be biased because I've had a scum read on KittyMo since her one content post, and maybe Hewitt's flaking is an ill-timed coincidence, but I honestly don't even have a sniff of another suspect at the moment. I'm staking my in game life on it - even in a reverse way if I get lynched first.

hambargarville was probably my most frustrating game aside from this one, and that's partially due to one player (one of only 3 on my blacklist) and partially due to the fact that nobody was understanding what I was saying. Of course, I was both wrong and there were 3/7 scum, so naturally I was unlikely to get much support and it remains by far my worst game on site.

Commie Mafia was the only other time I was mislynched, and I was actually quite ok with it. I came up with a theory that fingered 2 out of the three most townie players as scum, and it was a typical SC theory filled with WIFOM and assumptions and conjecture. Then to top it all off I switched to DDD who, although I was certain was town, had tunnelled me to the point where he admitted there was nothing barring a cop investigation that would have led him to think I was town. So I switched to him k,nowing we both couldn't be alive in lylo and that the switch would be deemed scummy enough to be lynched.

I was somewhat frustrated in /inv 4 - I don't know if you remember but I had some smug-ass posts about being vindicated in that game when iamausername counterclaimed rofl.

[SerialClergyman]

Elli, I'm off to bed but give me a decent reason why you think that the scum didn't just sit around on D2. Because looking back at it, it was kiku vs shotty as the major feature, so much so shotty was demanding we lynch kiku on his death even after she claimed mason. So for what reason would scum jump to be on Shotty's lynch? If anything, it's the perfect time for the scum to back off shotty because he's just been seen in a 1v1 brawl with a near-confirmed townie.

Look at the style of the posts - do any of them look like scum fuelling the fire? Or do they look genuinely argued?

These are the sorts of things I was thinking about during the night and honestly, on style I can't pick someone out as scum and I can't see much motivation for scum to be there either.

[SerialClergyman]

I would regard Ojanen as a good friend, despite having never met in real life. We have played together quite a few times, although rarely on the same team. In fact, the fact that I'm still alive point to her as town, unless my constant whinging after she NKed me as scum at the earliest possible opportunity twice in a row made her too guilty to do it a third time. I like playing with her and want her to be town, but I have called her out as scum before, so it's possible to read her, but I am influenced by knowing her somewhat.

I hope the reverse isn't true, and if part of your white knight syndrome is stopping you from making a case on me, Ojanen, time to suck it up and make that case. In all honesty, I'd appreciate actually responding about my 100+ posts this game rather than the same thing every time. (Note, Kise is trying and failing hard to do exactly this, because he's scum and doesn't want to recycle the same bad arguments but can't find any more good ones).

I don't have a town read on Scigatt from his play, I think it's been greatly missing. He has done nothing but suspect me for old reasons and hammer Shotty. But I have that strong a read on saber with a few key indicators that since D1 I think that playerslot is beyond reproach.

The only weird thing about DLA I remember was him arguing with me dramatically about Neto's defending me and showing no signs of taking what I was saying on board and then within a day had switched his vote to someone else.

[SerialClergyman]

DLA, mind expanding on that read there? Is it your experience that town players tend to be disaffected?

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry Ojanen, I did miss the question.

The problem is it's not really my way of thinking, but I'll try to give you my read on it.

Firstly, becausei t's vaugely relevent - I don't consider Hewitt's claim to have any bearing on alignment. I don't think it's natural for scum to claim mason at all, that just really does mean you are provably scum.

Ok, so his argument with ABR I can see as a chainsaw of Neto, trying to tap into the percieved notion of Albert walking all over people or even being genuinely frustrated that scum are a target. It could also be a townie who is sulking because he's arguing with someone who was wrong once and so therefore feels he has a better read. One quote from Albert that was interesting was 840:

Then follow the less active posters, hewitt. You are but a blind claimed townie, but you're behaving like how I think a mason would behave: sure of himself, leading the charge, telling the town who he definitely isn't lynching, etc.

He was doing exactly that. And given Albert was a mason, I'm pretty sure he's not the last mason. So this is certainly problematic.

OK, so now he actively defends Neto. This is interesting in that it's never been brought up (despite much discussion). I continue to think that it's hard to judge someone who is defending someone who is about to be lynched. On one hand, there was no reason to tie himself to Neto, on the other hand he was defending Neto for quite a while so he couldn't really do a 180.

This Ellibereth? This does not once say I think Netopalis is scum because of X reason. This is all just a summary of what he's done. That's bullcrap.

Then leads to:

So instead of lynching a useless player who isn't going to help us at all (kiku, Ellibereth, DLA) tomorrow you're lynching a player who actively contributes. That's a great idea saber.

Neto makes a comment about Hewitt as he's getting not-actually-hammered.

...And Hewitt also claimed vanilla townie, but the whole town jumped ship.

So he thought that was the most important thing to say before dying. It could just be him having a whinge but I'd have to imagine he thought there was strategic value in it.

I don't get the motivation for this:

Looks like I missed all the fun while I was lurking.

If Neto flips scum then SC is scum?

If Neto flips town then ABR is scum?

Yes, no, from everyone please.

This is bullcrap.

Unless he's scumpartners with me. I suppose he could just be trying to push the kiku case, which he spent all of D1 doing. I don't know.

His 911:

Huh, finally a case that's actually spelled out and understandable. It's actually a pretty good case now that someone has taken the time to explain it thoroughly.

comes after Albert posts his case on Neto. This is rubbish and scummy as. Ojanen's case was better than Albert's, and the work to convict Neto had been done well before. The difference between Hewitt's defense of neto and hewitt's coming around and seeing it as a good case was purely that he thought Neto had been hammered by then. I think this is a genuine decision he made once the hammer had been case. That's probably the most telling post of the period you directed me too.

It ends with the personal explosion between the two of them. This is a slight town tell in my eyes, it looks like he's irritated at Albert's sway over the town after Albert suspected him. Scum could well be pushing back as well, but I think it's less likely.

I hope that answers what you wanted me to get to... I'm uncomfortable because it's not really my style to look at language. Looking back over it I'm not seeing the significance of that area. The bits I've posted are th bits I had the strongest reactions to, but I'm a slave to confirmation bias when I'm focused like that so meh. To me the biggest thing is the scum strategy. What do scum do when there are huge town v town arguments breaking out? Fan the flames and shut up. Aside from Scigatt, that perfectly describes Hewitt and Kise.

[SerialClergyman]

Hmm.

Well at the very least I didn't take the cheap shot about Hewitt defending Neto which as you say was served up to me on a platter. I'm not quite sure why you felt you didn't get a better read of honesty there when I was reacting honestly.

It is surprising it hasn't been mentioned when the one for me has been done to death, but then that's part of the advantage of not posting, I suppose.

Ugh. Acting vibes? I don't know, I can't really help you. I have never been one for subtlety with my reads. I've never had to carry this much baggage around from a replacee before. I can live with people thinking I'm scummy for pushing my reads and having some odd ideas, but I feel like I'm doing 5 times the scumhunting for half the gain in this game.

Talking about how difficult it is for the town with me in the game is kind of missing the point. Either I totally capitulate and cost us a lynch or I scumhunt as well as I can and try to not cost us a lynch.

Grr, I'm not explaining things how I want them explained. Ok - what would you do in my situation? What's best for the town in my playerslot, do you think?

Also, I totally don't agree with you about Hewitt's very sudden turnaround about the Neto case. He defended him up until a hammer then switched to agreeing with the case on him. The case posted was possibly more conventional, but you can't tell me he went from you guys are all idiots who don't know what you're doing to actually, the case agaisnt neto is quite good just because of Albert's post.

[SerialClergyman]

I guess what I'm trying to say is it might seem overly dramatic to you, but I've played this entire game with the dagger of damacles hanging over my head waiting for it to drop. Both you and Elli, who I have town reads on, have expressed an innate desire to have me killed before lylo, and just about everybody (actually everybody) in the game thinks I'm scummy. So it might seem a bit dramatic and over the top to declare a 'this is my opinion for if I die' post at the start of a day, but I feel like this game my death is always just in front of my face and I'm trying to make sure my reads on the game aren't lost.

Does that make sense?

[SerialClergyman]

He wasn't on the Neto wagon, he was arguing against it. I then cast the hammer vote which wasn't actually the hammer vote but we all thought it was, Albert makes his case on Neto and Hewitt changes his mind. Ojanen thinks that Hewitt changed his mind due to Albert's case being more convincing than any posted before. I think Hewitt changed his mind because the hammer had been cast so why not lamely turn opinion around.

These are iso post numbers.

This Ellibereth? This does not once say I think Netopalis is scum because of X reason. This is all just a summary of what he's done. That's bullcrap.

I don't understand the Netopalis lynch at all. Nobody's made a real competent case that I can find.

So instead of lynching a useless player who isn't going to help us at all (kiku, Ellibereth, DLA) tomorrow you're lynching a player who actively contributes. That's a great idea saber.

So then what do you suggest we do tomorrow? We're going to have all these fucking bullshit lurkers, would tomorrow be the correct day to lynch them? We're risking a town flip today and then lynch a lurker which is an even bigger question mark tomorrow?

Huh, finally a case that's actually spelled out and understandable. It's actually a pretty good case now that someone has taken the time to explain it thoroughly.

[SerialClergyman]

DLA, mind expanding on that read there? Is it your experience that town players tend to be disaffected?

Put it this way..
There's about 10 townies.
There's 2 scum.

Which team would need you more actively?

Ugh. Moral of the story is if you are posting often and searching for scum you're scummy and if you wanted to avoid suspicion you should lurk? If you even looked for 10 seconds you'll see I'm very active in all my games. You'll also see that Kise is typically not particularly active in most of his games. But even aside from that concern, if you choose between me and Kise based on activity and choose ME as the scum, I can only shake my head in disbelief.

Who do you think my partner is if I"m scum? Would you vote for kise?

Ojanen - I get what you are saying. I understand the paranoia, and I'm actually a big fan of judging people based on different criteria (as Hoopla found out in a recent game). So you know, no worries. The only thing I'd vaugely object to is your use of arguments about what I am doing vs what I should be doing - the reasoning that ran if we lynch town I'm likely to be the next lynch. Your careful approach works for you for catching scum, but every time I've done that I've made long, convincing cases on townies with stacks of confirmation bias. My theories often sound somewhat odd and I know other people don't like working in that way, but it's how I roll and the best cahnce I have of finding scum.

Think /inv 4 - you know how hard I pushed for us to lynch tajo. That was L-2. So if he was town, it was lylo and I'd have just pushed really hard to lynch a town power role. There was a good chance I had lost the town the game on a tajo townflip. Of course he was scum and we all lived happily ever after, but I'm aware that the flipside was much less rosy. Still - I don't know any other way to play the game successfully, so I'm going to keep rocking it. In the end, it's not really up to me if I get lynched or not, so I'm focusing on what I can control.

I don't even know why we're banging on about all this actually - back to scumhunting!

Vote kise

. Kise has given me nothing to suggest he's town, pairing hewitt with farside is a transparent attempt to get a mislynch with hewitt. Pairing Ojanen and me is attacking poor old Serial and the person who has done the most to defend him.

@Kise - This liar thing is an issue, but mainly because I couldn't remember arguing that CSL wasn't under pressure. In fact, I think the point is that he WAS under pressure. I find players are way too quick to use words like liar and misrep so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is an importnat point so I'm going to spend a bit of time on it. To start, farside makes this point:

He picked the defeatist route without even defending himself. I mean seriously I read the game that is currently going on and I get the impression he goes out fighting when town over scum just based on meta.
Now just for the game voting for oneself without defending yourself can be looked at as a null but I don't know anyone I can think of who replaces out unless they are sick of mafia. He's still playing other games just fine.

So I think this has been negated just by nature of the fact that CSL has self-hammered in 5 seperate confirmed games apart from this one, twice as town and three times as scum.

But aside from that, I made the point that CSL's self-vote posts look much different. In this game he was downbeat and upset and acknowledged he'd made mistakes.

In the game quoted where he self-hammers as scum, he is quite upbeat, cheerily says you got me and wishes his scum team the best of luck.

Defeatist =/= scummy. It also isn't similar to when he was defeated as scum and was upbeat, jovially said that they got him and cheered on his team.

You (Kise) then challenged not my conclusion, but the circumstances:

CSL did read like defeated scum. He had 3 other players voting for him before his self-vote.

So you've missed the point. The point is that CSL SOUNDS different in his self-hammering posts. They are there for different REASONS. He does this same action as town and as scum, and he does it responding to pressure. Does that make more sense?

[SerialClergyman]

Hewitt, clearly. How could you not know that? Don't go back to D1 elli, I like D2 elli!

[SerialClergyman]

Clearly as in I've been saying it since the start of the day.

[SerialClergyman]

Kise, you can check out the mafia QT of the game if you need more info (no idea why you're bringing it up) but it was a breadcrumb we thought you'd laid about killing mastin or kk or someone.. you very clearly said you were going to kill someone and we all thought you were serious and a vig.

[SerialClergyman]

Farsidew, yes, that has occured to me, but afaik Kise only started pushing Hewitt scum when I started suspecting him. Last time he was mentioned was when he was having a go at ME for threatening to policyu him.

[SerialClergyman]

As far as my experience goes, the above is just factually incorrect.

[SerialClergyman]

I think kise is the obvious lynch. He's been scummy for days and days.

I don't mean to be quiet but I'm having a quiet spell in all my games.

Ellibereth, after a stellar D2 you've said barely anything aside from you have neutral reads on anyone. Speak up, son.

[SerialClergyman]

It's not that, it's that I don't like it when you go all quiet and unreadable. You can say you don't have a clue, but at the moment it looks like you're happily reading the thread and not saying anything, and you're not sure hwo is scum but aren't saying anythign to try and work it out, both of which I don't really like.

I think kise is the better lynch, but possibly because I've been pushing him for a long time. I'd be up for a hewitt lynch if the consensus was to he was scummier than kise though.

[SerialClergyman]

Well, except you've then gone and voted one of my suspects, so top points for you

[SerialClergyman]

Part of the motivation for me wanting to lynch Kise over Hewitt is that he's constantly bringing this sort of stuff up that is old and dealt with. Rather than asking DLA, why don't you either a) read my comments directly after that where I show my reasons why that case isn't a good one, or b) actually go do the work yourself rather than calling DLA out to back up a case he made weeks ago.

So I know it's not a good reason to lynch one person over another, but every time Kise posts I get exasperated and I'm SURE it's coming from scum. I get what you are saying Elli, but at the moment there is still more support for a Kise lynch and I think it's a better one for me, so that's where I'm staying for now.

[SerialClergyman]

Hewitt, he isn't serious, and if he is it's stupid. If we want Hewitt out of the way, we lynch him. That way we have a wagon, we have information. A modkill gives us nothing to go off and is an unreasonable request, given the playerslot just needs to be rpelaced. If I thought he was in any way serious I'd have called him out for suggesting it but it's yet another little tactic, I garauntee you.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, so Kise, you're saying that your asking DLA to try to find evidence against me is a ways for you to find out more about DLA and has nothing to do with your suspicion of me?

[SerialClergyman]

I assumed it would go to night after a modkill, I withdraw my objection.

[SerialClergyman]

If you're feeling uncertain about Kise but have him in your top 3, why unvote?

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, massive fail. Scum outside of those three.

I continue to be sure that Scigatt is town though.

[SerialClergyman]

You're liking it a lot.. My only problem with things as they stand is that Kise has been quite anti-hewitt, and I re-read the end of yesterday and he actually did make a few anti-hewitt comments before I linked them. I thought he only started after I linked them today and he was distancing, but yesterday he had no real need to make thos sorts of comments about hewitt.

But if it's not Kise and Hewitt then:

a) it's Kise and (xxx). I don't know who that person would be. Possibly Ellibereth, given Elli was so insistent we vote Hewitt over Kise. The only other options are farside and Ojanen. Both are concievable, but there would have to be significant bussing. DLA is also a possibility, given he was voting me as most likely to be scum and then ended up voting for the person I've been pushing for ages, which is one of those red flags. I think he did the same thing with Shotty - would have to check on that though.

b) it's hewitt and Ojanen and I've been played by somebody sticking up for me. I don't usually fall for people who defend me, but Ojanen might be a special case. I could see her being scum with farside if I only look at the interactions between themselves - farside's case on Ojanen was barely an effort that has since been ong forgotten and they agree with each other quite a lot, but I don't see either of them scum individually. If Ojanen is scum, then she's been a bit more active and put herself on the line much more. I think if hewitt is town, then Ojanen is almost certainly town as well. If he's scum, then there's a decent chance that it's Ojanen with him.

I haven't wanted to say much till Budja reviews, but as he starts to say his reads I think it's more important I'm clear where I stand. I have my doubts about my read based on Kise's play, but I just keep coming back to that player slot being useless, and the concept of the scum on D2 is just so right.

More when Budja finishes I suppose.

[SerialClergyman]

What's with the impatience? 24 hours or voted seems bizarrely harsh to me.

[SerialClergyman]

farside.. you make me so sad sometimes.

I can't tell if your paranoia is real or if it's just an excuse to vote hop like a loon. I've seen you go from me to budja to kise and back between all these people, after pushing Ojanen early and continually suggesting DLA is scum.

I need something more concrete from you, because it's starting to make me really suspicious. Even in your last three posts you've said I was scum, then budja and DLA are scum, then back to budja and me, and your suspicion of kise is apparantly forgotten.

And for evidence, you went back to D1 when you said you were rereading D2 to have a look at me and Ojanen. Why did you not persue that?

[SerialClergyman]

EBWOP although you signal your intentions to vote kise in 1441 ><

[SerialClergyman]

farside, that absolutely hasn't been clear at all. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it's a nebulous game that's hard to pick up on, and I get that you have this paranoid playstyle, but I could provide stacks of quotes from today that go against those reads, and even without that you're still calling out 4 players and hopping like crazy, which is not that ideal.

You didn't answer about Ojanen and me on D2. Why didn't you follow that up and instead brought something up from D1?

As for jumping on Kise - that's pretty much part of my problem. I'm not liking that he looks really scummy to me and yet getting votes on him has been like dragging nails over a blackboard. You list him as one of your suspects but are jumping on and off his wagon depending on pretty minor re-reads. Ellibereth has turned quiet, says he has no scum reads and rests his vote on the competing wagon, saying he has a town read (using what?).

I did have a very sure feeling about myself going into today, but Kise constantly pushing suspicion onto Hewitt (including the farcical unvote/vote when Budja replaced) has me doubting it. I can't ignore that he does seem to want the lynch to go that way, so I'm challenging my view of the game and trying to work out where this resistance is coming from.

[SerialClergyman]

simul, ok, I can kind of understand that about D2, it just seemed weird to go looking at D2 for me + Oj and come up with D1 for me + budja.

I don't know how you get panicked scum out of what I'm doing. I do think kise is my top suspect, but the very purpose of what I'm writing is to challenge my view of the game in response to his actions. I don't know what you're expecting me to do given how Kise has played today.

I don't get what you mean by the 24 hours comment? It seems exactly like something scum would do - give an unreasonable amount of time and then vote someone rather than having to stand by your decision and actually believe they are scum. It's not exactly in line with your really wanting to lynch scum today comment. On one hand, you really want to hit scum but on the other hand you're prepared to vote a replacement if they don't summarise within 24 hours, regardless of that person's play?

So look, I don't think you're scum, but I'm not liking your D3 play. And I don't respond well to the fact that the first time I even hint at questioning your behaviour and you go straight to saying I'm scummy rather than actually looking at the criticism and seeing if I have a point.

[SerialClergyman]

How many times have i said kise/hewitt or DLA/SC today?
Did I not even say I could see a kise/hewitt scum combo as well based on the yamond early BW vote day 1.
So how much clear to I need to be that you say it's not clear?

So I ended up doign a rough list of farside's suspicions D3. I started it with a head of steam, but relaxed after a while.

156, 157 Ojanen suspect, 158 case on OJ.
160 Kise is totally useless
161 Scigatt anti-town
163 Hewitt null, Kise scum, DLA possibly suspect.
164 DLA scummy, SC scummy. At a quandry with DLA/SC, kise and Ojanen.
165 Elli more town than scum but paranoid.
168 fos kise
171 fos DLA
173 hewitt town due to hammer talk by neto
175 hewitt town, agreed with his opinions.
180 One of hewitt or kise is scum, leaning kise.
181 vote kise.
182 Kise scum, hewitt frustrated townie, oneo f DLA or SC scum.
188 Hewitt likely town
189 Leaning town on OJ
197 Kisescum --> DLAscum.
200 Hewitt/SC or Kise/DLA
202 Hewitt/Kise scumpair
204 Elli town
205 Thinking about lynching Hewitt rather than modkilling
206 Says it's either kise or Budja up for lynch.
207 Thinks Kise is more likely than Budja, likes Budja's post.
208 24 hours notice on Budja
213 Oj town, SC scum.

These are all iso post numbers. There were bits I missed and I stopped a bit early, but you get the point - honestly, your suspicions have been really varied today. Even being conflicted about two scumpairs means you have 4 suspects minimum, so when you change the order and the pairing of those suspects, and throw in the odd comment (or full blown case) about Ojanen, Scigatt and Elli, it does make me worry you're just throwing dirt and trying to get somethign to stick. And the other thing is that for all your paranoia, you haven't mentioned Elli at ALL today, and his play has changed more markedly from D2 than Ojanen's has.

However, after all that effort, overall I think I'm actually less worried abotu it. It's obviously your style, and although I can't imagine that you sleep EVER, I've been insituations where I didn't have an understanding of the game and was a bti lost and it can be like that. At least you're open about your suspicions.

You asking for MY case linking Kise to Neto is pretty unreasonable given Kise wasn't around for the entire first two days. Did you realise that when telling me to do it, or was it just an off the cuff remark?

As for your SC/budja theory, I have no idea why you think it's unreasonable for me to change my reads when you've done exactly the same. I mean you post two links where I'm loooking at Hewitt scum and the fact I prefer a Kise lynch and am now telling people I've gone off a Hewitt lynch somewhat means I'm scum with Hewitt? Come on... I could quote your arguments against Ojanen or Kise but now you're voting Budja! Shock! I don't get your reasoning at all.

I have, since the start of the day, been firm about Kise and Hewitt being my reads for scum. I voted Kise first. I made a case against Hewitt, but since then I've been put off by thinking that Kise seems to genuinely want Hewitt lynched and that's disconcerting to my game view.

Is it because I have less quotes from Kise? Because as I pointed out earlier, quotes are going to be difficult.

I actually agree with your case on Hewitt more than even Ojanen does, but I'm struggling to see who his partner would be , and it would mean Kise is likely town, which is not something I think is likely.

[SerialClergyman]

Ojanen, who is Kise's scumpartner?

[SerialClergyman]

Also farside, why give Budja 24 hours to replace in but ignore Kise lurking for literally all of D2, weeks and weeks? Was it just that it was a different circumstance?

[SerialClergyman]

And Kise, if you have a town read on someone, what is the point of it if you don't speak out? Ojanen is doing exsactly what I've seen her do as town and exactly what I think is the right thing to do - talking about who she thinks is town. We all have town reads, I've been really vocal about mine all game, starting with Albert and going from there.

The fact that she has a likely-town read on me is perfectly reasonable and putting her out there as scummy (which means you're taking attention away from Budja incidentally, because you're now pushing an OJ-SC team) is pretty weak.

What is your current belief for a scum team? What's the evidence for that?

[SerialClergyman]

Kise, if you were lynched and flip town I don't really want to line up lynches and telegraph my next options. It's a definite possibility.

[SerialClergyman]

Farside - I wasn't giving you those changes in suspicion to say you're scum, I didn't expect you to go and confirm them. I was saying that no, you haven't had a consistent and clear viewpoint of the game, you've actually changed your mind a LOT.

Fair enough about the 24h thing.

I actually think it's specifically NOT easy to point to Kise scum exactly for that reason. I can't go through and post a huge case (not my style anyway really I suppose) but I don't have the 'evidence' you guys do for other cases. He's just been a non-event. All I can do is point to patterns of behaviour, which are less than convincing.

I get that you link the budja/shotty thing together but again, I think that's a bit unreasonable. we all change our mind, we all have second choices. I also had elli as scum when I replaced in and now I'm pretty sure he's town. I can't stop you if you want to draw that parrallel but you know, *shrug*. Would you prefer me to not mention my second choices?

And for town reads, we fundamentally disagree on that, but you know, there you go. I think if you get a strong town-read-on-each-ther group it makes it almost impossibly difficult for scum. They need to manufacture mislynches out of a much smaller pool and are restricted in the NK choices they have because they need to cut down on the group.

[SerialClergyman]

Look, Scigatt flaked, we're waiting on a replacement, but I have a town read on saber and we're not going to lynch someone who isn't here and isn't a main suspect. Let's notget distracted here by his posts that could have been an issue for any of the last 60 pages but we're importnat enough.

[SerialClergyman]

Yes Kise, last night I was thinking about kiku/shotty and it made sense to me that it was two low-contributors, hence you and hewitt. After I went back on Hewitt, I found he was against the Neto lynch until after the hammer and I just wasn't impressed with his play. So yes, I didn't really suspect/notice him yesterday.

[SerialClergyman]

Sure. But you also would have linked me to shotty if he had flipped town - most people seems keen to. It's one of those difficult situations where even though I list neto amongst my suspects, because he wasn't FIRST on the list it's used against me as much or more than you, kise and hewitt who weren't on his wagon or were campaigning against his lynch.

I feel like I keep getting linked to my suspects, not my town reads, which is bitter sweet. But I doubt I'd act much differently in your situaion, farside.

[SerialClergyman]

EBWOP: Sure. But you also would have linked me to shotty if he had flipped

town

scum - most people seemed keen to.

[SerialClergyman]

It's not as irrelevent as you're making it out to be. If you were confident that my pushing of Shotty was weak enough to be scum bussing, it's not reasonable to then say it was strong enough to be scum pushing a townie. It might not be a concern to you, but I think drawing connections from one player to another which work

no matter what that player flips

is a scumtell, or at least a bad case of confirmation bias.

But now that you've explained your thinking re: people on the wagon, I'm more into where you're coming from. I don't have the luxury of knowing you are town, but if you were I could appreciate that the thought of picking off those last two on the wagon and having a good chance of success with either is a good option. And to be fair, most of your votes and pushes have been against others on the wagon, so I can't overly complain.

And you can blame Kise despite the connection issues. That's because you look at the patterns in the voting. Neto died without much of a struggle, that leads me to think that his partners were quiet and not working to deflect criticism, which makes me look at the quiet people - no matter WHY they were quiet. That's a perfectly reasonable way to approach looking at Kise-scum that isn't unfair, I think.

[SerialClergyman]

Ah ok, that makes much more sense. If you're seeing connections for different reasons then it's much more reasonable than using the same piece of information to come to different conclusions.

I think we have enough information to come to the scum team if we analyse out the connections - why I've been giving you a hard time is not so much because i htink you're scum but because kise-farside is a possibility, especially now that you're quite strongly preferring Hewitt.

This is why Ojanen rightly predicted I don't like that she isn't thinking about scum teams or partners for Hewitt. If we just lynch a few scummy-looking people I think it's sort of pot luck from here on out, but if we look at where the scum team is, and analyse how they've impacted the game, we can solve this.

[SerialClergyman]

I have ot admit I tend to just throw up my hands when I read some of DLA's posts, but we're getting to the pointy end of the game so I can't afford to keep being complacent.

I am stunned that DLA is voting between myself and Kise. It seems to me to show an inconsistent view of the game. But then this recent vote wasn't opportunistic - a case wasn't really rising against me or anything like that. So the only benefit it could have had is if he's partners with Kise, but then if he's partners with Kise why isn't he pushing Hewitt, and why was he voting Kise for a while there?

I don't think it's necessarily scummy but I have no idea what th thought processes are. Expand on your vote please.

Also Ellibereth, you promised some content a while ago and are posting in other games, your input is valued.

And Budja, we neeeed your full reread and explanations for your thoughts ASAP. We're approaching deadline and what you've given us is noteworthy only in it's lack of noteworthyness.

farside, while we wait for this stuff, could you expand on your DLA/Kise theory? What makes you link them together, even after DLA was voting Kise for a fair portion of the day?

[SerialClergyman]

I have ot admit I tend to just throw up my hands when I read some of DLA's posts, but we're getting to the pointy end of the game so I can't afford to keep being complacent.

I am stunned that DLA is voting between myself and Kise. It seems to me to show an inconsistent view of the game. But then this recent vote wasn't opportunistic - a case wasn't really rising against me or anything like that. So the only benefit it could have had is if he's partners with Kise, but then if he's partners with Kise why isn't he pushing Hewitt, and why was he voting Kise for a while there?

I don't think it's necessarily scummy but I have no idea what th thought processes are. Expand on your vote please.

Also Ellibereth, you promised some content a while ago and are posting in other games, your input is valued.

And Budja, we neeeed your full reread and explanations for your thoughts ASAP. We're approaching deadline and what you've given us is noteworthy only in it's lack of noteworthyness.

farside, while we wait for this stuff, could you expand on your DLA/Kise theory? What makes you link them together, even after DLA was voting Kise for a fair portion of the day?

[SerialClergyman]

Not to step in for Ojanen, but she has if not a scum read at least a more-negative-than-neutral read on Scigatt, which is our main point of disagreement.

If you think we're scum together, why does it matter which one of us voted you first?

[SerialClergyman]

It's better not to discuss the mason - just have them claim if they are about to be lynched. Their claim in lylo will either give us a 50/50 (if there's a counter) or reduce the suspects by 1.

Budja, what posts are you using to get a town read on Kise? At the moment, you seem to not be up with current affairs because you didn't know the mason hadn't claimed, and the discussion about the mason claiming took part mostly BEFORE Kise started to post content at the end of D2.

Where are you in your re-read?

[SerialClergyman]

I gtg to work, but should be able to answer soon. In the meantime, why would you vote someone and often list them in your top suspects if you didn't undersatnd why they were scummy?

[SerialClergyman]

And Budja, that's cool mate, fair enough.

[SerialClergyman]

M'okay, so Kise being scum:

Firstly, Kittymo's replace in scumlist was the very first thing that gave me a red flag on the player slot. She lists mainly people in current discussion, and has Neto as her top scumsuspect JUST BEFORE he was lynched and flipped scum. Either she's a sheep, or she's scum, in my opinion. That just didn't look like a real scumlist to me. In fact, now we have some flips, lets bring it up again:

NEUTRAL
SerialClergyman
Kikuchiyo
Saberwolf
Shotty to the Body
Netopalis
SCUM

So out of that list, she has 4 townies and one scum player, with the scum player listed as the most suspicious and the one who was at l-1 and was essentially hammered by the time she posted.

Also - Neto didn't have many friends who were campaigning against his lynch or deflecting suspicion onto anyone else. I get the feeling from his posts that he was pretty alone. Of those who spoke out against the lynch, Hewitt and farside. I don't think they are scum together, farside would have to be pulling off a pretty epic bus. We know that Shotty was a townie. I'm pretty happy thinking Hewitt is scum, but there also needs to be another and the Kitty slot describes what I think the scum's behaviour was at that time. Also, Neto and Hewitt don't wagon Yarmond, with Hewitt even going so far as to say that it would likely hit town.

Then Kise comes in at the START of D2 to say he's around and yet says NOTHING throughout the entirety of the day. We have kiku, shotty, ojanen and me all posting wall posts at each other, so there was no need for kise to come in and say something. It is the same for Hewitt, but apparantly he flaked. Either way, I'm happy about Ojanen being town, and those massive walls are exactly what scum are looking for. We didn't have any content from scum so we weren't able to find them. If Kise is town, I'm sure he would have got involved in those discussions in some way - look how active he is today?

Kise's activity is worth a paragraph on its own - it has ramped up remarkedly since he started getting some attention. He showed no interest in finding scum D2, but plenty of interest in saving his butt D3.

Finally, his attacks have all been mediocre. He attacked me both because I've been his biggest accusor throughout the game and because I've been attacked constnatly due to CSL-baggage. When he gave his arguments, there was nothing more concrete than continuing to mention CSL and invoking Albert. Thigns like:

SerialClergyman wrote:
Kise NEEDS to be grilled tomorrow no matter what the shotty flip.

having three separate people flake is much more scummier than one, and it's been for two copmlete days AND the content that we've had has been shocking.

My predecessors look like George Clooney compared to CSL. Get real. Don't think I haven't noticed you're riding my back due to lurking.

Wow, SC. So you've already made up in your mind that I'm scum? Oh my goodness... u suck.

Kill me tonight if you want a better chance of surviving tomorrow. I iso'd CSL for shits and giggles and he's as good as claimed scum. Then Albert psychology makes you admit to being partners with Neto. How that was passed off today, I don't know. It won't be overlooked tomorrow.

Ok, ok - I know it's unfair to just cherry pick the worst attacks, but honestly, he started off full of them. His play has gotten better, but it doesn't excuse the fact that he actually brought up my suggesting a policy lynch of Hewitt for quoting all of Albert's posts as a point against me!

But all that stuff is just rationalising the pattern in my opinion. Looking at the slots that work as scum given the way this game has gone - he's defintiely one of them. The Neto lynch, the walls on D2, the difficulty getting him lynched D3 - all this stuff just points to him scum.

Unfortunately, Ellibereth, DLA AND Budja have town reads on Kise. The people I think are most likely town, farside and Ojanen, both have scum reads, although farside has been pushing for a hewitt lynch over a Kise lynch. And of course, Scigatt has flaked.

So practically, I'm not sure how we can achieve a Kise lynch, even though apparantly everyone barring Scigatt has voted him at least once today ><

I wouldn't mind anyone telling me why they think he's likely to be town..

[SerialClergyman]

What do you mean? Of the list that kittymo posts, there's 4 townies and Neto the scum, and Neto is listed as most scummy.

As for his activity, I know it comes and goes but he had ZERO content on D2.

Also -

I wouldn't mind anyone telling me why they think he's likely to be town..

[SerialClergyman]

I 100% believe Saber/Scigattt to be a townie.

[SerialClergyman]

And of course, Scigatt has flaked.

[SerialClergyman]

How? It has the word 'AND' starting it ><

No, Scigatt is higher than either Ojanen or farside. I'd say Ojanen 95% town and farside 75%.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh, I hate giving percentages for everyone. If you have a specific person you'd like, let me know. I'm already thinking 75% was a bit harsh for farside and 95% was a bit generous for Ojanen.

The saber read is part gut, part voting/suspicion analysis.

I also believe you haven't answered:

I wouldn't mind anyone telling me why they think he's likely to be town..

[SerialClergyman]

I tend to have good town reads. You're not alone, it's my major difference with Ojanen and a few people have mentioned it, but that's my position. It's also one of practicality, given a replacement is not forthcoming and I think lynching an empty slot is not optimal play.

I think you, and everyone else who has that town read on Kise, could expand on that please.

What's your feeling on Hewitt/Budja, Elli?

[SerialClergyman]

Ojanen, I just saw your question. I think it was because I was so happy that I wasn't getting lynched and one of my suspects was. That was my entire goal replacing into this game, trying to survive the first day and get someone who was suspicious lynched.

[SerialClergyman]

Before I comment further - Budja, how much of the thread have you read now?

[SerialClergyman]

If it was really a slip, then I would be scum, and so therefore would have said 2 scum and 3 townies?

But whatever, not much I can say about it. I am sure Scigatt is town, I consider him a townie.

I know that kitty stated computer issues, I didn't say that the day 1 absence was DELIBERATE, I said it was indicative of the situation. Neto had Hewitt defending him, but noone else. Thus it makes sense that the scum who wasn't defending him

wasn't there.

I'm sure Kitty DID have computer issues - but the fact remain there's a scum voice missing on D1, and I think that missing voice belonged to Kitty.

I never said that hewitt couldn't be scum, just that I wasn't sure with Kise pushing him. Now he's replaced in and had his say, it actually points me right back to Kise/Hewitt, given his reluctance to vote for Kise even when it's the competing wagon. Instead he's gone for SC with zero reasons and I suspect a relatively small amount of the thread read. (For example, look at the difference between Elli and Ojanen's cases on Neto on D1, and look which one of the two he declares town?)

I'm disappointed that you comment on nothing on the case on Kiseother than what relates to me (did you agree with any of it? Did it point out some of Kise's scumminess?), and would ask you again why you needed it given you've voted him and regularly list him in your suspects.

[SerialClergyman]

Farside, no, I wasn't sleep when I made the Kise case, but I was at work, which is possibly why it was less thorough than you'd have liked.

Your catch about Kitty is quite good. I notice that Kise asked someone to tell him who he'd been replaced as well. I'm wondering if it's a ploy by both of them to hide the fact they've been given a quicktopic and know exactly who they and their partners are. But I dimissed it because not everyone is as keen and into their games as me.

As for why I'd miss it, I dunno. Missed it. What does that say about me?

As for voting for Kise rrrg, give me a second, woman! So pressing all of a sudden. Up until recently I thought Kise was too distanced from Budja, but now maybe not, especially with Budja doing everything to not vote Kise. I don't really get how you see Budja/SC in that action given he could have voted for Kise and it would have been much easier but even saying this will probably make you more suspicious, not less, so I'm going to grin and bear it.


In terms of scum:
I don't like that the less townie people are favouring Budja over Kise, I don't like that now you and elli have asked me specifically to switch and I don't like that Kise was pushing for him to be modkilled.

I do like that he seems to have voted without reading the thread, that budja's posts are hardly thrilling, that he was unable to vote kise and your summary of the points against him was convincing..

hmmm

[SerialClergyman]

Alright.

vote budja

[SerialClergyman]

Lol rage

well ojanen, me and you all list kise as a suspect. Dla, elli, budja don't. Kise and scigatt don't count in this little analysis for obvious reasons. Now - which group of players am I happiest with?

I have town reads on you guys but that doesn't mean my eyes are closed.. I don't like being shepherded.

[SerialClergyman]

Rrrggg.. *hold me back*

I don't know why I'm surprised you're looking to find a reason to get off Budja and onto me. Your buddy gets replaced, votes me and suddenly you're prepared to ditch your vote on him and join his wagon on me again.

You don't have anything new to say. Appeals to Albert are part of the reason I vote you in the first place, let alone a defence.

The hewitt post is here:

SerialClergyman wrote:
Albert is town.

I have no idea on hewitt. If I thought ABR was scum, I'd be sure Hewitt was town, but I'm almost certain he's not. The OMGUS is to be expected after an ABR rampage (especially if, as it seems from his post, he didn't quite get what ABR was about). Not the worst lynch in the world, actually. Deserved to have been policy lynched for quoting ABR's entire iso Rolling Eyes

We can do better than a policy lynch on hewitt. Don't try to excuse a hewitt-wagon as anything other than justified.

[SerialClergyman]

farside - look at his posts and motivations. They don't make sense. He should be reacting to my voting of Budja, he should be wondering what that means and what is practical for his case. He's not doing any of that - he's writing limp defences and making deals to get me lynched. I would expect a townie to have analysed budja's recent posts in some sense, made a comment on them or asked him a question - instead he's said nothing about budja at all.

He doesn't sound like a townie, he doesn't think like a townie.

[SerialClergyman]

What do you mean you can wait for DLA and Elli? You want to see if they're sticking with me or if they go to budja?

[SerialClergyman]

et tu, Ojanen?

Where have Elli and DLA gone?

Might as well pop this little code now:

Scigatt is a little more complicated, but I always have considered him and saberwolf town. I think Ojanen is missing the mark above, althought it's a well thought out case.

Ittieltsiam, you see.
_________________

Ittieltsiam = I think that it's entirely likely that Scigatt is a mason.

I am, in fact, sure of it. It's the only slot that makes sense. Albert never attacked that slot, he refers to saber as 'my general', that slot never mentioned suspicion of kiku. I am 100% sure that Scigatt is the last mason.

So maybe I did slip, in that I could have said I have a gut town read on Scigatt rather than listing him as a townie. But it's simply because he's confirmed town to me, and should be to you all as well. We could find out for sure, if we wanted, by all claiming 'not mason', but I don't know what it would prove and it would guide the mafia to an easy night kill.

Please don't let that turn a good lynch into a bad one.

[SerialClergyman]

Because there is general consensus that I am scum who has slipped by referring to Scigatt as town. I've been limited in being able to defend myself without pointing this out. I think if I come clean with my thoughts about the subject now, and the reason why I slipped, then perhaps we can move on from it.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh. I don't know. Was it the wrong thing to do? Maybe I should have kept being vague and saying gut. I could hardly say 'yes it was a slip, but for super secretive reasons'. Zzz.

What would you have done? Just lumped it?

[SerialClergyman]

farside, fair enough. But it's also trying to defend something by saying it wasn't a slip when it was and you know why you made it was driving me mad.

Ojanen, I think Kise and budja are the scum team.

Kise's distancing made me think twice in them iddle of the day, so I persued some other possibles (and DLA is an option, I suppose, except that he also voted for Kise out of the blue. Mind you, he's back on me now, so *shrug*).

But when Budja came in, I've seen his input as stereotypical scumpartner with Kise. Chose to vote me and declare Kise town, clearly hasn't read the thread thoroughly, hasn't talked since really etc etc. Kise making noise about switching without having the guts to place his vote and suddenly coolign off the budja case.

So that's where I am on the teams.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow, awesome threat for no reason. My feelings aren't hurt, I was just put in a very difficult position. I'm not askign you if you agree or want to discuss it further, I'm telling you why I had to say what I said, which was a direct answer to a question YOU asked me.

So no more discussion of it would be fine by me.

[SerialClergyman]

Why would you think trying to show who you think to be mason in order to save yourself is a town action?

Many people thought there was a scum slip from me when in reality the slip had very different motivations. I was trying to get people to see that so they can't use the reasoning of a scum slip to get me lynched. Maybe you'd have done differently in my position but that's how I chose to act. I don't know if I'd do it again given how effective it was, but so it goes. I think I overestimated how important the slip was to votes against me.

[SerialClergyman]

Speaking of which, I think that scum specifrically are setting me up right now. Kise pushed the slip angle harder than most and used it to try to weasel a SC lynch yesterday. Elli continues to give no reasons for any of his reads, nor does Budja.

It should be obvious by this point I have no friends in this town, given even Ojanen seems to have turned.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, enough dreariness.

Budja, where you at? Can you let me know how much of the thread you've read and give a more detailed case on me?

Kise, why no vote on me without farside?

Elli, can you provide your reasoning for any read that you've got at the moment? Now that the slip has been explained, how does that affect your view of me if at all? Who's my partner?

farside, if you think I'm scum with Budja, why not just switch votes with Kise and lynch me like he suggested yesterday? Do you think Budja is just more likely? How likely is the Kise/DLA team looking at the moment?

DLA, where are you? Thoughts? Reasons for thoughts?

[SerialClergyman]

This constant linking me to budja and back when we're both voting each other on opposite wagons is frustrating.

I have, but only in an ongoing game. The last time I tried to use a more traditional breadcrumb was in Amished Mafia where I Jailkept Ojanen and tried to make it known by being subtle, and was terribly bad at it, saying something like 'I think Ojanen is either REALLY scum or REALLY town'.

Needless to say, out of shame I'm trying to improve my breadcrumbing and this seems like a decent way - stolen from Hoopla.

Is the hammering talk a little quick? Is there no chance we're looking at Kise/DLA today?

[SerialClergyman]

Except I've been in favour of his lynch ALL DAY apart from a period in the middle, and I've explained my thoughts along the way the entire time and it was you who wrote up the case in an effort to convince me to join, so you should know exactkly why I think he's a good lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

lol, the following is probably a blessing..

I'm going to have limited access to mafia for a day or two, so I'll probably only be able to make small mobile posts, not large keyboard posts. (Cue joy)

[SerialClergyman]

farside, I'm going to just accept your vote. I think your paranoia probably serves you well a lot of the time, but because you're looking at every post critically you're far more likely to find people who are saying more scummy. You'll probably find this post scummy. You haven't mentioned much about Kise/DLA not because you don't think they're scummy but because they simply haven't said very much. I fully expect you to find this paragraph scummy as well.

I'd just ask you to go back to my original point because it's obvious why I'd make that slip. I was showing that Kittymo's post had 4 townies and one scum, and the scum was about to die anyway. It was a transparent list, designed to try to eek out credit for neto and highlight all her mislynch possibilities. I'll stand by that point, even if I should have said 3 townies and one 'probable' townie.

So now I feel like CHarlie brown with the ball pulled out from under me again and again. I'm going to get a bit more sleep and then work out what to do.

Ojanen, you're my new scum buddy despite being a constnat pro-town force in the game and comprehensively owning Neto with a wallpost case that got him lynched, do you want to ditch the budja wagon and pop back on Kise? Might as well let me go down in a blaze of glory.

Good to see a replacement has come in, thanks for that Mod.

[SerialClergyman]

But that's the problem, you've got budja or DLA and no way of distinguishing between them (and youhave no chance if it's Elli for example)

If you kill Budja and he's scum, you kill kise and that's a win, or kill me and then kise if you must.

If he's town, you kill kise and then you know budja isn't the partner, so ou can kill DLA or maybe even Elli.

If we kill Kise and he's scum, then we kill 2/3 of DLA, buda and elli.

If we kill Kise and he's town, the scum team is DLA/Budja and I'd just have to convince you of that.

If we kill me and I'm scum, you then kill Ojanen. If she's town, you've got to hope that budja is my partner or else you're in trouble. Or you kill budja and if he's town you've either got a pro-town Ojanen or ???

If we kill me and I'm town, you have no idea if it's kise/budja or kise/DLA, let alone kise/Elli.

So as far as I can tell, even if you had no idea about alignments, budja is the sensible lynch in that he's fairly likely to be scum and would cut down on other possible scum very quickly. In terms of who's likeliest to be scum with the most possible connections, Kise is your lynch.

I can't comment on my own liklihood to be scum for obvious reasons, but in terms of connections I have very few. There are currently two touted that are even possible, one I've been campaigning for the lynch of one and the other is the most pro-town player in the game barring the mason.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm sorry farside, I'm actually over trying to talk to you about it. Just think about which connections each player has and what the sensible lynch choice is because of them.

If you lynch me, lynch kise, but then you'll have a fun lylo trying to decide between budja elli and dla for his partner.

But if you lynch budja now, you'll either hit scum, in which case you can kill me and kise in whatever order, or you'll hit town in which case you get to choose between Serial/Ojanen or Kise/DLA as the scum team. It's a better lynch full stop.

[SerialClergyman]

This is why there's no point - you don't get it. Budja can't be my scum buddy because you're using me attacking him as a reason I'm scummy. Presumably you can't do that if he's also scum. Ojanen can't be anyone's scumbuddy, she's totally beyond reproach in the game she's played and there's no argument against her. It's impossible to think that scum would come in when she did and bus neto as hard as she did. So your scumpartners for me make absolutely no sense.

If you lynch me, you WILL have that 99% chance that kise is partners with either budja or DLA and you'll have one lynch to find out. Unless he's scum with Elli, in which case you've lost the game.

If you lynch budja and he flips town, you'll STILL HAVE THAT 99% CHANCE only the kise/budja option is removed. And obviously if budja is scum, he's a better lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh. Sorry unnamed partner. Yes, I was scum. Enjoy the game, kids.

[SerialClergyman]

Lol...

Man... Elii.. I already apologised to you in that other game for lying to you but you didn't realise just how much...

Game went to plan pretty much exactly how we intended. Would have been nicer to go after budja rather than before, but essentially it was the same diff I think. Well played everyone, bad luck for the townies. This was the most effort I've ever put into a mafia game and I'm so proud we pulled it off. Well played scum.

[SerialClergyman]

KittyMo gets 10 points for nominating a scummy for a game she didn't read

Thanks Kise. If I'd known it was to honour me and our plan then I'd have been less complain-y about it in the graveyard

Here's our QT link: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/TwuFmnmZvbds

I think the key point isn't so much the Charlie Brown secret messages stuff, it's more the game structure tactical play. I'ven oticed scum have a habit of discrediting town reads because they like the suspicion to be spread around, and confirmed townies can win games. So this game I really did decide to push town reads. I knew I had a meta of doing it so it wasn't out of the blue, but I was always thinking that because my death was pretty imminent, I'd be looking to choose targets and get them lynched.

I figured the town would help me out by casting suspicion on those I declared town, either before or after my flip. Turns out, in this game they really didn't. DLA was suspected only in lylo, farside was rarely if ever suspected. Scigatt was untouched as well.

But it wasn't the end of the world - it jsut meant we were working in a very narrow window. I did think that perhaps if I had pushed especially DLA more that people would start to suspect him, but I don't know. And my political capitcal was zero all game, I was essentially scum, and so my accusations were ALWAYS read as if thy came from scum. Even my cases on Shotty, both D1 and D2 had people agreeing with them to the point where they thought he was scum and lynched him, and yet were STILL saying I was scum - albeit his buddy.

And then D3 rolls around and the key was understanding that with the amount of people regarded as town at that point in the game, and the fact that there was still a mson out there somewhere, that just based on a limited target pool, one of us was DEFINITELY going to die. We just couldn't pull mislynch after mislynch and expect the town to keep following us. And the town, if left ot their own devices, were going to settle on me, based on CSL and Neto, let alone anything I did.

Once we came to that conclusion, we just needed to find out who the mislynches were. Ojanen was our first choice because of her defence of me. I thought people would have to choose Ojanen over Kise due to their respective opinions on me. (It was actually a lot closer than I had thought.) Now the other one - we couldn't go Scigatt because we thought he was a mason, but hewitt was still a distinct possibility. So we aimed for hewitt that day, as innoculously as we could, with the knowledge that we had Ojanen in the bag (or perhaps DLA if Kise was the lynch.)

So Kise and I kept up our limp attacks at each other. Eventually, I got offered the opportunity to move onto budja from hewitt, but this is the typical scum move, and it was more important that our distance was kept, so I didn't take it and kept pushign kise. Eventually when it looked like even if I came over tobudja it would be seen as obviously budja being bussed, that's when I switched, but irritatingly I got pulled up over a non-existant slip (I'd totally known in advance I was considering Scigatt confirmed town, and even edited that bit specifically beforep osting) and suddenly I got totally on farside's bad side after even hinting at somethign suspicious she was doing and that was all it took for me. A bit of bad judgement on my part.

There was one point where Elli was aobut to hammer budja, and I didn't have to fight it but I just kept getting worried that if budja was town then kise + SC could be linked the next day. I knew that realistically we had no other lynches, so it was hugely important that budja and me were linked.

Anyways, from there Kise had a good foundation, but it wasn't certain. He played very well, didn't put a foot wrong. Even then, DLA's vote on him had the potential to take down the scum, because it seemed like DLAscum would go for Ojanen for a lylo mislynch, but he kept cool and rode it out and that was game.

I had a great time, it was pretty emotionally challenging constantly lying to you guys, more so than when I've been scum before, I think. It was also tough because I was so suspected right off the bat, and I didn't even have a mafia buddy for support because we'd arranged this distance, so at times it was a really tough slog to keep posting.

But I'm glad at th result, and even more glad about the play. And sorry to Neto for replacing in and getting you killed N1, hopefully this makes up for it!

[SerialClergyman]

Also, do the masons mind sharing their QT?

[SerialClergyman]

I forgot to say thanks to dramonic, who rescued this game out of nothing and was a devoted mod throughout. Thanks very much for your efforts, you did really well.

[SerialClergyman]

Albert, mason QT?

[SerialClergyman]

Ellibereth, you may as well quit playing mafia now. COMPLETELY blindsided.

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/tZhTWzEgWhxJ

I know I fucked up bad...

Rubbish. You made a wrong decision. We've all been there, ol' blue eyes included.

[SerialClergyman]

..

So your options are either never trust serial, or the opposite, never trust serial?

><

[SerialClergyman]

lol

Ways of reading Ojanen:

1) If you are NKed she's scum.
2) If you aren't trusted, she's town.

I just gg'd your meta