Open 169 - [Alternating 9P] OVER

[Paradoxombie]

/confirm

[Paradoxombie]

Vote:Deuxieme Octopus

because I'd prefer him to have 2 votes.

[Paradoxombie]

Would vote hopping make it more inviting?

unvote, vote:dank

[Paradoxombie]

unvote, vote:Lynx the antithesis

A wagon on him would be satisfying retribution for his own wagoning

[Paradoxombie]

unvote, vote:CSL

I don't like how he casts a random vote and then complains about the lack of real votes 20 minutes later.

[Paradoxombie]

So why not vote CSL, Lynx?

[Paradoxombie]

FoS: My Bandwagon

for putting me at L-2. Seriously, am I going to be a target of the RVS? I am going to vote for the person who puts me at L-1, I swear this.

Also,

FoS: RayFrost

for FoSing my Evil Twin. XD

My vote on you is not random.

[Paradoxombie]

On a side note, you say it's town's motivation to get us out of the RVS. But I've seen you do little to accomplish this goal. As far as I'm concerned, Paradox and I are the only ones with actual serious votes out there.

Is your vote on CSL really that serious?? You jumped on what seemed like a very lighthearted post. His "Fos: My Bandwagon"-post seemed to me no more grave than if he had said "cmon guys im really the RVS target?" I get this vibe based on the "evil twin" comment after, followed by the "XD"

I guess this could be aided by CSL responding as to whether his threat was a legitimate one.

Are you asking him if it's serious, as in the reason is not random? or serious as in a serious accusation of scumhood? Because you seem to be referring to the latter, but lynx seems to be referring to the former.

---

VOTE COUNT

(3) CSL - Maemuki, Paradoxombie, Lynx The Antithesis

(2) Lynx The Antithesis - RayFrost, dank
(1) Deuxieme Octopus - Khamisa
(1) Haylen - Haylen
(1) Khamisa - Deuxieme Octopus

Not Voting: CSL

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch
DEADLINE: September 23, 2009 6:30 PM PST

[Paradoxombie]

unvote, vote: Khamisa

I agree that she is not really doing anything. I'm also not a fan of leaving a vote unused.

[Paradoxombie]

unvote

Khamisa does need to post more, admittedly... but I don't consider the lack of posting to be vote worthy yet.

Dank

:

good point

To be honest, this is one of the few games I'm in that I didn't replace into... and I'm feeling just about the same: slow.

I'm having difficulty adjusting my play from the replacing in and having a few pages to read in which I can see a lot of things said and not said... once I've adjusted fully, I'll be able to do better.

Currently, I don't see any real tells, so I'm at a loss.

We're not gonna get to that point if people aren't using their votes.

unvote, vote:RayFrost

[Paradoxombie]

Maybe it's only applicable to me, but I don't care about votes. We could pass around a million votes and nothing gets done; but one someone reaches five, there better be a good reason as to why that happened.

And supposedly I've been posting fluff. Give me something that I haven't noted already.

To me, notes are fluff, and that post is fluff. What wouldn't be fluff is a real vote, a real suspicion, or a real attempt to discover someone's alignment. You've been playing commentator instead of playing player. Like when you state how CSL voted badly and is in another game with you. Does that mean he's scummy? Would you be voting him if he had less votes? You're stating things you find significant but not pointing out any significance. So to me your play looks insignificant, i.e. fluff. I mean you haven't mentioned any suspicions yet, and you can expect that to look like active lurking by this point.

[Paradoxombie]

...

Vote: RayFrost

...

...I meant to vote him, I realized I FoS'd him just now...

Are you serious?

Yes, I'm serious. Putting someone at L-1 is scummy. I'm claiming if you guys put me at L-1 again.

I'm not sure if this is what Lynx was getting at, but YOU DIDNT REALIZE YOU ONLY FOS'ED HIM? This strikes me as flat out bullshit. People have already brought up the fact that you unvoted an imaginary player without putting your vote on anyone else! Dank asked you straight up, and you responded. [posts 171 and 172] Usually when you drop a vote on someone, you provide some sort of reasoning, even if its just a well composed summary. But you provide nothing.

And this L-1 ultimatum?? I'm not buying it.

vote: CSL

fos

if someone is anxious to claim you could've expected it to be a powerrole, no?

Claim time from CSL.

Were you asking for a claim? or just pre-empting one based on CSL's promise?

[Paradoxombie]

unvote

Ahh now what!?

As per Paradoxombie's post, I feel like it's directed towards me, but I can't really decipher whether or not you're asking me something. Clarify?

When CSL threatened to claim you chose to apply more preassure. Once he'd actually claimed you unvote. I think that's suspicious.

[Paradoxombie]

unvote

Ahh now what!?

As per Paradoxombie's post, I feel like it's directed towards me, but I can't really decipher whether or not you're asking me something. Clarify?

When CSL threatened to claim you chose to apply more preassure. Once he'd actually claimed you unvote. I think that's suspicious.

But at the same time, should someone back off pressure when someone says "leave me alone or i'll claim!" I don't think saying something like that exonerates him the least bit. It could be a softclaim at a pr, but it could as easily be mafia trying to buy time and trying to get a free pass. There's no reason not to continue applying pressure at the scummiest player if that player happens to suggest they're going to claim, and there's no reason not to unvote once you have an un-ccd power role. Im curious, paradox, what would you have done in this situation?

I'm not sure what I would have done because I can't turn back the clock, but I'd be pissed NOW if I outed the doctor when there was a pretty clear softclaim. I've never heard a vanilla threaten to claim, personally. Which helps scum more? Outing the doctor or not forcing a softclaimed player to claim? IF I did do that I'd expect suspicion.

You are saying you wanted CSL to claim and you are defending deuxieme then?

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox:

your suspicion of deux came before his unvote, so saying that the unvote was suspicious as reasoning for your FoS is suspicious.

In addition, how was it a "pretty clear softclaim?"

I'm not seeing how, unless you mean to say that anybody can say "leave me alone, or I'll claim" and get you to unvote cuz they are probably a powerrole. In which case, you are an extremely cautious player that would likely not vote and find anybody that says another player should claim at L-1 to be suspicious...

am I following this correctly?

I don't think it's suspicious to put someone at L-1 and ask them to claim. But as Deuixeme put it, he "didn't buy" what CSL was selling. He knew CSL was suggesting he was a powerrole and to all appearences he voted BECAUSE CSL suggested he was a powerrole. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in asking what's up with that?

And I'm sick of Deuxieme being explained for. I asked a question and I want people to explain

themselves

. Or is that as unreasonable as asking someone's motivations?

[Paradoxombie]

I was wrong to say that the unvote mattered, but I really don't like the timing of Deuixeme's vote, directly after the threat.

[Paradoxombie]

And I'm sick of Deuxieme being explained for. I asked a question and I want people to explain themselves. Or is that as unreasonable as asking someone's motivations?

Just couldn't get to a computer in time to beat the rush of responses you got.

I'm not blaming you for it at all.

Now for the bolded part. No one has counterclaimed his Doc claim. Why would this be suspicious at all?

Like I said, I was wrong to say that. I thought it was odd you'd disbelieve the softclaim and accept the claim, but like you said there was no counterclaim.

If your motivations were not scummy, I think you were hasty. You wanted your suspicions confirmed rather than reconsider them. It comes off as worse that it's the softclaim that did it. And it also makes it worse than people who simply kept their votes. My problem isn't that you outed the doctor, it's that it looks intentional. It's much easier for mafia to flippantly lynch a townie or out a powerrole. You acted too sure he was lying, not like someone seriously weighing the consequences like you make it seem now.

[Paradoxombie]

...

Vote: RayFrost

...

...I meant to vote him, I realized I FoS'd him just now...

Are you serious?

Yes, I'm serious. Putting someone at L-1 is scummy. I'm claiming if you guys put me at L-1 again.

I'm not sure if this is what Lynx was getting at, but YOU DIDNT REALIZE YOU ONLY FOS'ED HIM? This strikes me as flat out bullshit. People have already brought up the fact that you unvoted an imaginary player without putting your vote on anyone else! Dank asked you straight up, and you responded. [posts 171 and 172] Usually when you drop a vote on someone, you provide some sort of reasoning, even if its just a well composed summary. But you provide nothing.

And this L-1 ultimatum?? I'm not buying it.

vote: CSL

I don't see the slightest hint of contemplating the "obvious option" of reducing pressure. It looks like you jumped in headfirst.

unvote, vote:Deuxieme Octopus

[Paradoxombie]

SO Khamisa throws out the idea of lynching a claimed doctor, but wants other people to actually decide if it's a good idea without giving any analysis of her own about it. And that's the closest things she's come to

doing

something.

She may deserve my vote more than Deuxieme.

[Paradoxombie]

Also saying things are significant as they pass you by is awfully passive.

[Paradoxombie]

LtA: Votes are used when there is something suspicious enough that the person need be lynched. I haven't found any of those points yet.

unvote, vote:Khamisa

Because she hasn't done anything to help the town.

[Paradoxombie]

That's clearly 3 votes, now 2. It's not hard to see.

[Paradoxombie]

That's clearly 3 votes, now 2. It's not hard to see.

>.> I don't have the patience to count the votes up.

or wanted an excuse to unvote.

[Paradoxombie]

That's clearly 3 votes, now 2. It's not hard to see.

>.> I don't have the patience to count the votes up.

or wanted an excuse to unvote.

If I wanted an excuse to unvote, I'd just say "Not liking how quickly people jumped khamisa, considering my recent suspicion" and unvote like that

If you're not saying that then do you plan to vote again?

[Paradoxombie]

Oh yeah, and it looks like I'm L-1, so I must be SUPER UNDER PRESSURE!

It's hard to pressure someone if they're not doing anything to slip up on. I don't think the people voting you are interested in pressure. At least I'm not.

[Paradoxombie]

Khamisa what do you mean by LtA? I'm not familiar with that term.

[Paradoxombie]

I'm trying to decide if khamisa is just a poor player or considerably scummy. He should at least have some sort of suspicions at this point.

She didn't play like this when I've played with her before.

Well all three of us were in Open 146 where she only had one vote all game.

Which means she has played like this when you played with her before.

unvote, vote: Empking

?

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox if she exhibited this behavior before then why have you been pressing her for it. She was town in that role correct? And why did you put a question mark after your vote on empking?

Well I was kinda lazy about checking the games we were in, and pressing people is it's own reward. Looking back, she was actually less passive in another game the three of us were in where she was scum. That seems more significant to me, but I'm unsure if I want to change the lynch this close to deadline, because there are still aspects of her play that bother me, like her interest in lynching the claimed doc.

[Paradoxombie]

Hi paradox!!!

why don't you weigh in on the dank & me debate?

Khamisa is likely to be the best lynch in my mind, but I share dank's concerns.

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox if she exhibited this behavior before then why have you been pressing her for it. She was town in that role correct? And why did you put a question mark after your vote on empking?

Well I was kinda lazy about checking the games we were in, and pressing people is it's own reward. Looking back, she was actually less passive in another game the three of us were in where she was scum. That seems more significant to me, but I'm unsure if I want to change the lynch this close to deadline, because there are still aspects of her play that bother me, like her interest in lynching the claimed doc.

Why would close proximity to the deadline stop us from making a more informed, and perhaps better, choice?

Because it's hard to simultaneously scumhunt and line up an agreeable lynch. Which is also why I'm hesitant to go after Empking.

unvote, vote: Khamisa

[Paradoxombie]

Hi paradox!!!

why don't you weigh in on the dank & me debate?

Khamisa is likely to be the best lynch in my mind, but I share dank's concerns.

Dank's concerns that I'm scum that's being hyperaggressive, reaching, and overall making a complete and total idiot of himself if this goes wrong? That about sums it up, except I'm town.

I just meant I'm often second guessing whether what I think is scummy really is reason to lynch someone.

[Paradoxombie]

Do notice rayfrost tossing aside the two page discussion about khamisa being scummy vs antitown, in favor of saying i'm voting him just because he's confident in his case.

It's very interesting.

Do notice dank has argued the semantics between anti-town and scummy for two pages with me and is somehow using said semantic to call me scummy.

It's very interesting.

You're reacting quite a bit to one vote. No need to lose composure.

[Paradoxombie]

[Paradoxombie]

Do notice rayfrost tossing aside the two page discussion about khamisa being scummy vs antitown, in favor of saying i'm voting him just because he's confident in his case.

It's very interesting.

Do notice dank has argued the semantics between anti-town and scummy for two pages with me and is somehow using said semantic to call me scummy.

It's very interesting.

You're reacting quite a bit to one vote. No need to lose composure.

Eh, I'm calm. I'm just defending myself blow for blow

But then your response feeds the conflict, rather than alleviating it. Looking town isn't the town's primary responsibility, it's scum's.

fos

[Paradoxombie]

Ummm... this has nothing to do with "looking town" at all, for me. I'm pushing my case for khamisa while dank is pushing his case fo rme. I defend myself while trying to attack khamisa, and dank is attacking me while defend khamisa.

They are intertwined, so to separate one part from the other is difficult at best.

Yeah but to me it seems like it became more serious after he put a vote on you.

You say you're going "blow for blow" but the argument is his responsibility more than yours. Going blow for blow in his argument on you makes it look like your trying to prove yourself innocent now.


Lynx, the best way to appear townie is to concentrate on scumhunting over making arguments about why youre doing the right things. For me anyway. Someone clearly trying to look townie is being counterproductive in a game with me because that's going to attract my attention.

[Paradoxombie]

Haylen tomorrow.

[Paradoxombie]

Haylen tomorrow.

elaborate?

Agreed.

She's been active lurking the whole game. She has potential for tomorrow's lynch regardless of Khamisa's alignment.

[Paradoxombie]

Trying to set up a lynch for the next day without solid evidence is rather suspicious. Do you have proof that haylen is, in fact, active lurking and not inactive?

Her posting is lacking. That's worthy of my attention.

Proof that she's active? Well she said she'd post in her other game. But I wouldn't even have mentioned that point besides that you asked for it. I don't need "proof" to suspect someone. It doesn't have to be innocent until proven guilty.

[Paradoxombie]

Trying to set up a lynch for the next day without solid evidence is rather suspicious. Do you have proof that haylen is, in fact, active lurking and not inactive?

Her posting is lacking. That's worthy of my attention.

Proof that she's active? Well she said she'd post in her other game. But I wouldn't even have mentioned that point besides that you asked for it. I don't need "proof" to suspect someone. It doesn't have to be innocent until proven guilty.

If we went with guilty until proven innocent, we wouldn't get anywhere due to the paranoia involved with it. It's not really possible to confirm yourself without flipping or having a flipped sane cop that stated an innocent result on you (even that isn't solid due to millers and godfathers).

Anyway... I'm still for a khamisa lynch. I'm willing to look into haylen, but don't expect a clear feeling of scum on that.

Where would we get without paranoia? How can one be overly suspicious when every player is a suspect?

People who aren't paranoid look like scum to me.

[Paradoxombie]

Well I was unexpected V/LA all weekend because I didn't have internet. I am back now.

I am not sure who to vote. I think I'll go with Dank, because he argued against going after khamisa for purely antitown behavior but now chooses to go after Haylen over his previous suspect Ray. And it just makes his avoidance of the khamisa wagon yesterday seem less warranted. I feel his whole move against the khamisa wagon seemed a bit contrived. Also, he doesn't post for 3 days before the lynch, where he should have been going after ray if he actually wanted to avoid a khamisa lynch. It looks more like he just wanted to avoid being on the wagon rather than stop it or actually get another together.

unvote, vote:Dank

[Paradoxombie]

Paradox, though you actually present a good case against Dank, do you have nothing to say of Ray's vote on you in terms of a defense?

There's nothing really wrong with that vote, but it's not anything new really. I still think DO is suspicious for his fairly reckless voting of CSL(outing the doctor) and Khamisa (unexpectedly hammering).

unvote, vote:Deuxieme Octopus

[Paradoxombie]

I got my prod. Will post asap. I have company over atm.

[Paradoxombie]

Hrmm... I'd like it if para responded to my suspicions of him instead of dismissing them as "from a while ago" or anything similar to that vein.

If we go with "that's from a while ago" for things, then it'd void his case on DO, dank's on me, Dank's/Lynx's on empking... etc. It's not viable to dismiss something based on how long ago in the game it was. Mafia requires looking at past things as well as current things.

I didn't dismiss your suspicions, I'm indifferent to them. I applied pressure where I thought I should. I did bait DO and that doesn't bother me. It's your job to make me take your assertions seriously, not mine.

I'm considering voting Empking, because I don't feel he's really trying to find scum atm.

[Paradoxombie]

I felt you and paradox went about your votes in a much more town way. You admitted the weaknesses of the lynch, but it was too late at the deadline to get an alternate lynch going without possibly making a stupid mistake. While I didn't completely agree, I could understand your dilemma, and it was nice to see that you understood the lynch was by no means a sure thing.

Ray, however, did more than anyone to push the lynch. He tried to use faulty arguments to push it through, and tried to make it look much stronger of a lynch than it actually was. Basically, he seemed to want this lynch more than anyone, and didn't acknowledge or even shot down others doubts about it. In other words, the opportunity for an easy lynch was there, and ray took it. With empking, another opportunity's presenting itself here on D2.

As far as emp, there's so little to anyalyze that I can't really make that strong of a case on his "why did this die" post, which was basically all he said about khamisa. His gameplay's been bad, and there is a case for his lynch in my mind, but Ray's is loaded with far more support.

Why do you believe scum would put that much effort into an "easy" wagon? I think Empking looks more like the one floating along on an easy wagon day 1. He barely even mentions the wagon after he gets on it. And I really wish you had put as much effort into getting answers out of Empking as Ray. He would have been a good target when you were looking for someone after Khamisa. Why didn't you even look his way?

unvote, vote:Empking

[Paradoxombie]

Whatever it was, I am very confident that a townie would not have gone about the khamisa lynch the way ray did, then say he learned his lesson, then suggest the same kind of lynch the next day (there is a valid case on empking, but ray's reasoning is that he was "distracting", which shows that 1. he wants another policy lynch and 2. he's not even paying attention to the valid cases on empking).



I'm not sure what to think of emp. His meta seems to fit this game, which makes it hard for me to read him. I feel this could be a trap kind of lynch that looks good, but really doesn't have that much behind it (its just his style). Other than claiming he's done something when he's been useless, is there anything more to his case? I thought it was suspicious that he got interested in defendeding himself after mostly lurking, but he seems to be back to lurking now. So, i'm pretty unsure on him.

I think what you suspect about Ray could also just be his playstyle. I think you've really built up the case against ray without much to go on but disbelieving that he authentically thought the Khamisa lynch could work. You can post a ton because Ray posts all the time but in the end he really doesn't look any scummier than Empking to me.

And just because Empking is lurking you don't see any case against him? You admitted that he acted suspiciously and lurked. He slapped an easy vote on an easy wagon at an ideal time and sailed through the rest of the day. And you were the one looking at alternatives to Khamisa. Are you simply biased for lurkers or is there some connection between you and empking?


Also we are something like a week from deadline and haylen still hasn't given us anything.

unvote, vote: Haylen

[Paradoxombie]

Where did I say that I don't see any case for empking?

It just seems that way because you didn't seem to put much effort into getting anything out of Empking. You seem to understate Empking and keep your focus on Ray even though you've gotten much more content from Ray than Empking.

If you ask me, there's not much reason to see Ray as scummier besides that he posts more. You say he aggressively pursued Khamisa, but how did he do that besides respond to your arguments against him?

[Paradoxombie]

Yes, and that very content that I got from Ray makes him scummier in my eyes. There is far more to the case than Ray pushing khamisa's lynch and posting alot. Have you actually read the posts he's made? Because I pushed him to post more, he's tied himself up in what he believes and doesnt believe, and has said some pretty scummy things.

In the same way that you're accusing me of understating Empking, who's case doesn't have much more evidence than uselessness (and you have yet to give me more than that), you are understating the case on Ray, which has far more backing. Why is that?

I'm getting the vibe that you haven't actually been reading much of the posts in the last week or so where you've been less active, which is a bit suspicious.

I'll admit I have trouble seeing much of a case on Ray, but you might want to view that as at least partly your fault when you keep trying to make a case against him.

I'm not surprised Ray has confused statements, because anyone can be tied up in knots if you argue for pages, and hold them seriously to every conviction when they've only been on the site for 2.5 months.

I don't think I'm underplaying it as much as youre overplaying it,
but if you really think he's said and done such scummy things maybe you should make a clearer case?

[Paradoxombie]

I'm think of RF though.

Are you trying to express that you think RayFrost is scummy and worth lynching? Whatever you are trying to say, say it because you seem to be purposely laying low to me.

What I don't like about your play is that your suspicions don't have much weight behind them, and there's no evidence that you are seriously scumhunting or weighing the alternative lynches. All you do is slap on a convenient vote. You don't seem at all interested in the actual alignment of the player and your cases don't develop past the initial reason

unvote, vote:Empking

[Paradoxombie]

Para: You've been following my votes since I replaced in. How can I not care about whether my target is scummy and you do? How is that possible?

Because all you ever say is that you support the lynch. You're vague about why you vote when you do, and you don't give us any idea how much you really think they're scum. You show little interest in exploring alternatives.

I'd like you to point to a single example of serious scumhunting on your part. Seriously. After that, tell me whether you suspect ray and why.

[Paradoxombie]

Para: You've been following my votes since I replaced in. How can I not care about whether my target is scummy and you do? How is that possible?

Because all you ever say is that you support the lynch. You're vague about why you vote when you do, and you don't give us any idea how much you really think they're scum. You show little interest in exploring alternatives.

I'd like you to point to a single example of serious scumhunting on your part. Seriously. After that, tell me whether you suspect ray and why.

I'm a fan of gut and obvious things.

I suspect Ray for hypocrisity in a scummy manner.

What Hypocrisy? And how is it scummy? You aren't telling me anything. And you seem incapable of giving a straight answer. Where did Ray do something scummy and why would scum do that?

[Paradoxombie]

Also you seem to be admitting you never scumhunt if all you're interested in is obvious things.

[Paradoxombie]

Also you seem to be admitting you never scumhunt if all you're interested in is obvious things.

Depends on your definition of scumhunting. If its hunting scum, then I definitely do.

Not giving a straight answer is different from not answering question you haven't yet asked.

So you cannot give an example of you hunting scum? You seem to be avoiding that request.

[Paradoxombie]

RayFrost, where do you stand on all this?

I find the case on empking to be points for bugging him to contribute more, but to actually get him lynched over (especially after the khamisa stuff)... not really.

Soooo...

Poke Of Doom: Empking

post content, please.

Is my big example.

Its scummy because he either thinks its scummy yet is doing it or he doesn't think its scummy and he's faking his scumhunting.

So you are saying ray is contributing as little as you? I'd tend to disagree but I might have to recount. His iso posts look a lot more numerous than yours. And they have more content imo.

[Paradoxombie]

So you cannot give an example of you hunting scum? You seem to be avoiding that request.

Quote of that request please.

I'd like you to point to a single example of serious scumhunting on your part. Seriously. After that, tell me whether you suspect ray and why.

[Paradoxombie]

RayFrost, where do you stand on all this?

I find the case on empking to be points for bugging him to contribute more, but to actually get him lynched over (especially after the khamisa stuff)... not really.

Soooo...

Poke Of Doom: Empking

post content, please.

That's nice, basically quote my last post as your own, then tell Empking to contribute more content. Hypocritical, no?

FoS: Ray

RayFrost, if you had to lynch someone right now, who would it be?

I think this is a weak call. You said Empking is hard to analyze, how much can you expect ray to add. And it's not like he just piped in with the same opinion, YOU asked him for it.

Second, I'm saying I don't feel solid enough to have either of them lynched right now. Also, I'm not sure how para, who's posted quite recently, has been "absent for a little while." Would you mind explaining that a bit more?

Don't you remember that Paradoxombie needed to be prodded for his return? He was gone for 5 days, 5 days when your "case" existed on him. This is an all-too-obvious attempt to lessen the weight of my actual arguments by trying to "disprove" details, which would make me seem less reliable. It pains me to let Haylen go, after yet another IOU, but I just have to.

unvote, Vote: RayFrost

I don't see your argument here. If he was trying to dispute you by misrepresenting facts, why would he ask you to explain further? How does he lessen the argument by asking you to clarify? I cannot understand why that merits a vote.

This just seems like a weak attempt at a case to me. You already admitted one argument(Saying "To Be Honest") was stretching it. I can hardly see how these other arguments show any real scumminess on Ray's part.

FOS

DO

[Paradoxombie]

Quote of that request please.

That's scumhunting.

Yes, me scumhunting you.

You make it pretty clear that you haven't gotten any real content and you haven't done any unique analysis.

Your arguments for khamisa were either false or regurgitated
your argument against ray is just a rehash of a post by DO
and you have no case against Haylen.

You've contributed nothing meaningful as far as I can see, and I'm fairly certain Ray has at least tried to make some real arguments.

[Paradoxombie]

for the part that you just quoted, i was saying that Ray was avoiding defending himself against the meat of my argument by picking out a detail that he thought he could disprove, making the rest of my argument seem less credible.

Well you don't seem interested in asking that the questions that need asking.

Ray, why do you suspect me? You honestly want me to be lynched merely because i pressured DO when he outed the doctor? You've been riding this one reason all day, and you've gotten so caught up in defending yourself that I'm not seeing any scumhunting.

FOS

Ray

[Paradoxombie]

You've contributed nothing meaningful as far as I can see, and I'm fairly certain Ray has at least tried to make some real arguments.

I don't like this quote.

1. Khamisa also contributed nothing meaningful; did that make her scum? There needs to be more of a case on someone than being useless.

2. Have you read the arguments Ray tried to make? I feel like you're giving him credit for just making arguments, instead of judging the arguments on their content. His arguments have been very poor.

You said I may be understating lurking in this game, which could be true since I see it as more anti-town than scummy. I think to a greater extent, you're overestimating it's value.

Is ray scum because he makes bad arguments? All you do is criticize his arguments, but does town never make bad arguments? Are scum more likely to? You haven't told me much in terms of motivations or actions.

And do you honestly find Empking's arguments superior to ray's? Neither have partaken in any serious analysis of their choices as far as I can see.

[Paradoxombie]

Ray's arguments haven't been bad, they've been scummy, and i've pointed out why. Empkings arguments are garbage, but I think thats more because his playstyle is garbage.

Ray, why do you suspect me? You honestly want me to be lynched merely because i pressured DO when he outed the doctor? You've been riding this one reason all day, and you've gotten so caught up in defending yourself that I'm not seeing any scumhunting. FOS Ray ]

Quote from dank two pages ago:

Paradox: Ray made an argument against him, poked at it a bit. He says the suspicions are solid and havent been well defended against. Yet he doesn't follow it up. Ray's basically let this "good" case drop, and instead of pushing paradox further, just announces that he had a good case on paradox, but not worthy of a lynch. Good scumhunting.

It's like you're fosing him for a little part of my case on him that you didn't seem to read. Interesting.

That "little part" is the only realistic part to me. It's one of the few things that Ray clearly did/didn't do. But you don't seem to find it significant for some reason. It's easily the best point against him. Yet you're case is so bloated that it's barely mentioned.

[Paradoxombie]

Ray is a new player, and he openly said he wasn't a good scumhunter. But just because Empking has a reputation he is less scummy?

[Paradoxombie]

ebwop:

oh, so

Empking cuz he's distracting and making it harder for town to concentrate elsewhere.

isn't a suggestion for a policy lynch that ray's been preaching against all day? The same kind of lynch that he led on khamisa D1 proving to be a mislynch?

Yes I'm pretty sure that why Empking wasn't his primary choice? And if Ray had the choice we wouldn't be lynching Empking, we'd be lynching me. The way you're framing it sounds like Empking is the one he wants lynched.

Ray is a new player, and he openly said he wasn't a good scumhunter. But just because Empking has a reputation he is less scummy?

Empking has a reputation as being a pretty bad player, as you can see by reading his other games. Why aren't you discounting his play because of that?

I never thought his play was bad, I just think it looks like scum. When I played with scum Empking he also played like this.

[Paradoxombie]

He wants empking lynched if we don't lynch you. That's putting his policy lynch case above four other players. Though its not his first choice, its still the choice he's making. That doesn't bother you?

No, not really. It doesn't look great for him, but I supported Khamisa's lynch and Empking's now. And how can you criticize anyone when Empking is one of your suspects?

Para:

I wanted your answer because I don't follow your logic on how you can, in hindsight, say it was

obvious

that he was the doc. It was reaching pretty far, imo, so I felt it was worth mentioning and pressuring you about. Your defense of me is appreciated, though I'm not completely sure about the why of you doing it. I'm keeping my vote on until you explain it, btw

I wouldn't say I'm defending you. Your reasons for me being your primary suspect are fairly weak and I think you've been sitting on them all day. I would be okay with your lynch.

[Paradoxombie]

FOS

DO

[Paradoxombie]

Haylen tomorrow.

[Paradoxombie]

unvote, vote:Deuxieme Octopus

[Paradoxombie]

Lynx, what were your investigations both nights? What was your logic and reasoning behind each investigation?

Since he would be an even night cop, he would only have one investigation, and I think he made it pretty clear who it was and why(though I guess it could have been clearer)

[Paradoxombie]

And Lynx, what is this about me skating by today? If you think there's more I could be doing, I'd be happy to oblige

I feel you're not pressing the people you vote. Like you slapping it on, but don't develop upon it much further. First Haylen, and now Ray.

I'm think of RF though.

Are you trying to express that you think RayFrost is scummy and worth lynching? Whatever you are trying to say, say it because you seem to be purposely laying low to me.

What I don't like about your play is that your suspicions don't have much weight behind them, and there's no evidence that you are seriously scumhunting or weighing the alternative lynches. All you do is slap on a convenient vote. You don't seem at all interested in the actual alignment of the player and your cases don't develop past the initial reason

unvote, vote:Empking

That's the ticket.