Open 172 - Mini Love - GAME OVER!

[Vino]

I /confirm in the name of Andy Warhol.

[Vino]

Oh and I also add this game to my watch list.

[Vino]

/confirm
The lover role PM seems a bit ambiguous. What are the lover's win conditions? Are there two pairs, or a group of four?

My (not so) random vote goes out to Slepz for the silly idea of a love square.

Vote: Slepz

Silly Slepz! Of course there are two pairs of lovers.

[Vino]

Hyperbole? Will have to respond to this once I learn what hyperbole means.

This is a hyperbole:



Har.

[Vino]

Sounds like a bad Shakespeare ripoff.

A Midsummer's Night Mafia.

[Vino]

I try to avoid the beginning of the game because I always stick my foot in my mouth and I can never get any useful information from it. I still want to participate though even if I don't see anything worth commenting on much, so I figured I'd post and let you all know I'm not dead.

I'm not dead.

Let me know when you guys are done with the "Arguing about trivialities" stage.

[Vino]

let me know when you're done with the refusing to contribute stage

I am done thanks to Nikanor.

So who thinks the lovers should claim?

Anybody who wants town to lose. I generally frown on any kind of claiming D1 that doesn't involve L-1, but you're basically saying that if the two town players die, then we can lynch another of the lovers and make two more players die, to cause a total of 3 town deaths to kill 1 scum. I say we use the "scumhunting" method instead. Plus I would rather have the two town lovers be a secret. In the event that the scum-town lovers die, the town-town lovers can be a confirmable asset in a lylo situation, but if they're claimed then they get NK'd by scum in a 2 for 1.

[Vino]

Nikanor: so what's the plan if one lover from each pair claims? How do you see this playing out?

Well, the advantage of this plan is that if we ever lynch the scum-town set of lovers, there will only be one claimed lover that can be killed by scum. That lover will be doc-protected, so we'll have confirmed town there, unless the scum can hit the other lover by chance.
If we lynch the pro-town lovers.... well, we'll lynch the other claimed lover.

... which leaves us exactly where we were at before.

So you're basically telling me that we have a half-half chance of breaking even, and a half-half chance of having maybe one protected town

if

nothing happens to the doc, and still only barely breaking above even.

[Vino]

Because in that plan, if anything happens to the doc, then we fall behind even. This all depends on the doc staying alive, and I wouldn't trust any plan with the survival of a doc. And even so, it still leaves us with the problems of knowing which lover to lynch, and of finding the other scum once the lovers are cleared. It really doesn't solve that many problems in my view.

Maybe on D2 or D3 we claim lovers. If we have no scum then it helps us narrow down scum targets to avoid LyLo. If we have flipped scum then helps us know which pair to lynch. Doing it right now is foolhardy.

I am not sure if I find a bad idea to be inherently scummy.

Why not? Is this an "in this case" situation or a general thought?

[Vino]

Surely you have had a well intentioned bad idea before. I've played 2.1 dear Vinocious.

Ouch. Your cut goes deep broseph

In any case your inquisition on Khamisa's votes was insightful but I think you were barking up the wrong tree.

dramonic and Netlava

, I'd like you to expand more on your Khamisa votes. Neither of them had any reason attached to them, and they both came at about the same time.

[Vino]

I am in two games, one with a Snow Bunny and one with a Snow White and both with Locke Lamora, and I am definitely getting them confused in my head.

The RVS is fine. Continuing it when its over is not

I assume that was in response to my question. My response to you and to everybody in general:

* Why is continuing the RVS scummy? What motivation does scum have to keep the game in RVS? I don't see the argument there.
* What did Khamisa do to extend the RVS? She is short on content, all I can really see from her is this post where she says she doesn't think continuing the RVS isn't scummy, but I don't see her ever actually trying to do it.
* I am lost on who it was that originally started this "trying to prolong the RVS stage" deal. I think it was this post by Yankee, although that doesn't make sense to me because all votes up until that point were random. But still if it was him and not Khamisa, why are you voting Khamisa?

I would say the RVS ended when Locke voted Yankee, and to me, anybody who was acting as if it ended before that is reaching. I don't see Yankee's vote as anything but random, given it was his second post and first vote of the game.

[Vino]

Then show me: Who made any cases before this post? Honcho mentions some quirky behavior from Looker but nobody else makes any game content before that post. Doesn't that mean it's still RVS by your definition?

[Vino]

I afraid I don't understand the fine differentiation between a "stance" and a "behavior." I still don't get what you think Khamisa did that deserved your vote.

[Vino]

Then dramonic, do you think that Yankee's vote was extending the RVS or not? Either you think Yankee did it and Khamisa was defending him, or you think Yankee didn't do it but Khamisa was defending him anyway, which is it?

Also I don't understand what Netlava said at all.

[Vino]

I don't think the "RVS stage ending" stuff was that big of a deal either, I do think it's strange that certain persons are making a big deal out of it. Netlava's points on Khamisa could be seen as valid in isolation, but put them all together and you have what I think is a gross misrepresentation of what really happened. Either he's reading into it way too much, or he's trying to frame someone.

Still wanting to hear from dramonic, though.

[Vino]

Vino, the thing with scum is that they are incapable of legitimate scumhunting in a game like this when they are a completely informed minority.

Interesting. Then is this particular to a small open game like this, or is this a general rule in your book?

What the hell does this mean? They are valid points except for when you put them together? Could he have made any two of these points and you would not have had a problem with it?

What I mean is, they're all valid points, but the fact that he has ten things to say about a one-line post tells me that he's reading into it way too much.

VOTE COUNT

Khamisa (3): Netlava, dramonic, Head_Honcho
Yankee (2): Locke Lamora, Nikanor
animorpherv1 (1): Looker
dramonic (1): Snow_Bunny
Locke Lamora (1): Slepz
Slepz (1): Vino
Vino (1): Khamisa
Netlava (1): Yankee

Not Voting (1): animorpherv1

With 12 Alive, 7 is needed to lynch.

[Vino]

So then do you think that Netlava is right and Khamisa and Yankee have some kind of link, as that one single line post seems to indicate?

[Vino]

I remember once in a large theme game (I was scum), where the town proposed a major name claim. I and some partners immediately stood up and said that it was no beneficial for town and started fighting against it, with the argument that it would help scum more than town. We obviously didn't want it because it would be a bad thing for us. And I think that's the same reason some players don't want that.

Then you think all of the people who opposed it are scummy?

I like how you're making an argument based on an anecdote from another game that may or may not apply to us. Would you like to join us in Mini Love 172 and make an argument specific to our current situation?

Anyhow no I don't think we've played together before Bunny, I'm just saying that I'm getting games confused.

[Vino]

I still have a bunch of unanswered questions:

@dramonic:

Then dramonic, do you think that Yankee's vote was extending the RVS or not? Either you think Yankee did it and Khamisa was defending him, or you think Yankee didn't do it but Khamisa was defending him anyway, which is it?

@Head_Honcho:

So then do you think that Netlava is right and Khamisa and Yankee have some kind of link, as that one single line post seems to indicate?

@Snow_Bunny:

This post wasn't rhetorical.

[Vino]

Sorry for my absence I've had a very busy day.

Vino, that's not even the issue. The issue is that you think all of his points are valid and are attacking him for HAVING TOO MANY OF THEM. Which boils down to you attacking him for scumhunting.

I hate it when people take my arguments and twist them into something they're not. Obviously I have no problem with him scumhunting. My argument is that he's reading way too much into a simple post. He's formed a huge conspiracy theory based on very little evidence, and I think that's a damaging way to think. He had like, ten points about a one sentence post that didn't cover half of my screen. I'm reading it as reaching, and I don't think it's necessarily scummy, but I do think it's way too much thought to frame a case on what seems to me is not a big thing.

I would probably vote vino for that but I would actually be very okay with a looker lynch today.

Calling for a lynch but not voting?

[Vino]

To be honest, I don't know what it is myself, but I know that people like to reference it. From my understanding, it's taking how people have reacted and played within past games and applying it to their playstyle in current games. I would believe this to be counterintuitive because with each game you learn new things and you try new things, so I can't see how meta would really be helpful. Of course, I'm open to any discourse on the matter.

"Everybody don't look at my meta, I look scummy in it!"

Granted it looks like you're pretty new to the site so I suppose meta wouldn't be very useful anyway. (Not that I use meta other than from games I've personally played in.)

[Vino]

Here we go.

Vote: Nikanor

* For refusing to back up his votes with more than just "Don't you agree?"
* For going back and forth between votes to see which one will stick.
* For talking so flippantly about lynching lovers.

Not that I disagree with what Nikanor is saying, as I find Yankee and Looker both to be moderately scummy, but I find the way that he's going about it to be rather underhanded, and I'd like to hear Nik's opinions on the matter. (There's that stance vs behavior thing again!)

Snow Bunny, I presume you did a read of Yankee's posts like Nik asked you to, since you say you agree that he's scummy. What exactly do you find to be scummy?

[Vino]

Battau, hello and goodbye.

Most of my suspicion comes from gut.

That's not very useful to the rest of us. I don't mind you basing your suspicions on gut, but I do mind you telling everybody else that they should vote based on your gut feeling and no other evidence. Can you back up your cause with post citations, even if just pointing to the ones that strike your gut?

Yup. I found both Looker and Yankee to be scummy. I have no idea why you people have such difficulties building a solid bandwagon. :/

In turn, I'm not sure why you are so enthusiastic about the concept of bandwagoning.

If we never lynch any lovers, we will lose. You wouldn't want that, would you?

The operating word was "flippantly." Obviously for town to win, one town-aligned lover will have to die. However, there's also two town-aligned lovers that don't have to die and what I resent is you talking flippantly about them dying. The two town-aligned lovers are one of the town's greatest assets right now, but you don't seem to think so.

The point is that Snow looks like Yankee's buddy, even more so now with her vote on Yankee.

Don't mind me, just saving this for later.

@Snow_White, I would like an reply, if not an answer.

[Vino]

Shit I meant Snow_Bunny. Game confusion still going on, I'm in another game with someone named "Snow White" sorry!

[Vino]

*facepalm*

Yankee I'm pretty sure you have six votes on you right now.

Honcho, I feel bad that your fate is tied to this guy.

If Yankee is a lover then I feel quite strongly against lynching him, and I'm hoping that people begin with the unvoting. Five days is plenty of time to decide another lynch. Also I think that the other lovers should not claim, as we don't know whether Honcho and Yankee are the town lovers or the treacherous lovers. If they are the treacherous lovers then we don't want mafia finding out who the town lovers are, and I think it's fairly likely that Yankee is scum, especially now with the self vote.

[Vino]

Ah right. Nikanor unvoted so Yankee only put himself at L-2.

Honcho, that's what you get for betraying my love <3

I think it is moderately likely the scum already knows who the other lovers are.

I presume you mean if Honcho-Yankee is the traitorous lover pair, then scum already knows who the town lover pair is. I wonder why you think that?

[Vino]

In fact my sleep has been rather poor lately. However, I don't get why you think that's a stupid question. If you or Yankee is scum then I don't see how scum can know who the other pair is other than making a guess based on reading the game thus far. So I'm trying to figure out why you think they do.

VOTE COUNT

Yankee (4): Locke Lamora, Snow_Bunny, Netlava, Khamisa
Looker (2): dramonic, Head_Honcho
Nikanor (2): Vino, animorpherv1
Locke Lamora (1): Kirbyoshi
Snow_Bunny (1): Nikanor

Not Voting (2): Yankee, Looker

With 12 Alive, 7 is needed to lynch.
Deadline is October 20th.

Don't forget the site might be moving this weekend. Prepare for a little disruption.

[Vino]

Honcho, pardon me for being dumb, it's really not all that obvious to me. If you just don't want to answer the question than simply say so, but I'd like to know why you think scum knows who the other lovers are at this point, because I sure don't see any public information that would show that. The way I see it you would have to be one of those lovers to know for sure, at this point.

Holy crap Kirby. Great post, lots of content.

[Re: Yankee]
His proposal that he be lynched because he thinks HH is scum is stupid, but not scummy. Seems to give off a newbie vibe, and I believe it for now.

I don't think he thinks Honcho is scum. I think he is just referring to the game layout where Honcho has 1/4 choice of being scum (or if you are in Yankee's position and he got a town card, 1/3 chance.)

Locke Lamora:
I like his play overall, but I wish he would post more.
Scum Score Scale: 2/10

Wow, seriously? You're going to give 5 or 6 bullet points on everybody else, but give Locke a pass based on "overall play?" I'd like to see more in-depth here.

Vino:
(140)If you don’t think the end-of-RVS discussion was a big deal, why did you try to pinpoint when the RVS actually ended?

I was trying to figure out what the motivations were behind all of the discussion around when the RVS was ending. I thought it was an interesting sticking point and I was hoping to push discussion of the issue, in order to use it to do some scumhunting. I'm not really sure how effective it was, as I didn't get much information out of it. (Or, if you look at it a different way, everybody I pressed got townie points for not having scummy replies.) Like someone pointed out back then, the issue itself of when it actually ended didn't really matter that much.

(152)What in HH’s posts made you think otherwise?

I don't follow?

(184)Why do you quote 2 of the posts, and use only a link for one of them?

Um... I don't remember. Probably I just wanted to use the phrase "This post is not rhetorical." with inline linking. Is there any particular reason this bothers you?

(266)If you think Yankee is scum, why do you want people to unvote him?

I'm not positive enough that Yankee is scum that I want him lynched. I'm still debating with myself between loose cannon and scum gambit. I want to hear more from him and I'd rather him alive for now. If Yankee is scum and gets lynched then our town lovers become a very big target for the scum. Anyhow I'm more concerned about Nikanor right now.

[Vino]

1/3 is still less than half. I don't think it would be a smart play at all if he thought HH was town.

Yeah I'm not arguing for his position, I'm just trying to let you know that I think you misinterpreted his post (which by his recent post is true.)

I'm trying to convince you to come over to a wagon which you have ranked as equal in scumminess to your own. That's all.

It's this kind of thing that I am voting you for.

VOTE COUNT

Yankee (4): Netlava, Khamisa, dramonic, Yankee
Nikanor (3): Vino, animorpherv1, Snow_Bunny
Looker (1): Head_Honcho
Snow_Bunny (1): Nikanor
Dramonic (1): Locke Lamora
Khamisa (1): Kirbyoshi

Not Voting (1): Looker

With 12 Alive, 7 is needed to lynch.
Deadline is October 20th.

Don't forget the site might be moving this weekend. Prepare for a little disruption.

[Vino]

Looker seems to be getting more stupid as time goes by. "Quickly-builty?" Seriously?

I'm certainly glad there's been a lot of activity recently.

Sorry Vino, it's just that you were taking the least likely interpretation and I did not understand why. If everyone knows Yankee and I are lovers, and given my POV I say I think it is moderately likely that the scum already know who the other pair is, what am I implying?

You're implying that you and Yankee are town and therefore scum already knows who the other pair is because they have one. That's reasonable, except for the fact that I specifically said when I asked you the question about the case where you two are the scum lovers:

I presume you mean if Honcho-Yankee is the traitorous lover pair, then scum already knows who the town lover pair is.

so the other two lovers are town-town and scum doesn't know who they are. Am I missing something?

[Vino]

I never said it was necessary.

[Vino]

Looker seems to be getting more stupid as time goes by. "Quickly-builty?" Seriously?

Why are you trying to discredit Looker? It was obviously a typo, but it seems you are looking for reasons to call him stupid.

He did it twice. I dunno, it's not that I actually think he's stupid, it's just that he gets sillier and sillier as the game goes on. As Honcho says, it makes him harder to read. Or am I just imagining things?

[Vino]

Also an OMGUS vote. Nikanor, would you like us to revisit the concept of hyperbole? I'm okay with backtracking on an insult because it was a mistake to call someone stupid and I'd rather not back that statement. What I meant to say is that his posts are getting silly, not that the person making them is stupid.

You on the other hand are acting scummier and scummier all the time.

[Vino]

Christ Honcho, how am I supposed to read your mind?

It's a shame you used my name since now there is no saving us if you are truly town, but I appreciate you not killing me.

This gave me the impression that you thought Yankee was scum. I don't see why that's so unlikely, especially from my point of view where Yankee is only questionably a town member. Also the words, "a pretty good chance" are different from "yeah they definitely know who the other lover pair is because they are one." The former is sarcasm but we all know how well that works over the internet don't we?

So then, just to understand the situation: you're working under the premise that Yankee is town and you are in the pro-town lover pair?

Huh? You're confused? Well, my opinion of "silly" is MUCH better than that of "stupid". Just sayin'.

Well that's just stupid. I'm not the one who's confused.

[Vino]

You don't seem to know the definition of OMGUS. One of the most important things about OMGUS is that it has to happen almost immediately after a player attacks the offender. [...] Then, you go on to say that I'm acting scummier and scummier all the time. THAT is OMGUS.

At the risk of being argumentative, I really don't consider the statue of limitations on the time span between provocation and retaliation in OMGUS to be all that stringent. However, it's not baseless for me to assert that you're getting scummier, especially when you continue the behavior I voted you for (reckless voting) and I don't consider it an OMGUS if I was already voting you when I said it, as it's more of a continuation of a previous attack.

Long story short, this new vote on Snow Whatever is exactly the kind of thing I don't like about you, and I think I like my vote exactly where it is.

[Vino]

I think it might be a good idea for one of the two of them to claim.

[Vino]

Sorry guys I've been really busy the last couple days.

So our main focus right now should be choosing who to lynch. It looks like the options are Nikanor, Khamisa, and Yankee.

If Khamisa and Yankee are lovers then I think they are not a good candidates. I would rather the lovers stay alive for now. I've heard people say that scum wants to keep the lovers alive, but I think that town wants to keep the lovers alive too. If the scum lovers die then the town lovers become a target and the doc can't protect them both, and if the town lovers die then we've lost two confirmed townies, and we still haven't found any of the two other scum. Those two non-lover scum are who we need to be focusing on right now.

So I'm pretty much keeping my vote on Nikanor. I've expressed a number of times why I think he is deserving of a lynch.

Also I think that Khamisa's lover is not an issue right now and doesn't help us decide which one of the three to lynch, given I don't think we should lynch any lovers at all.

Most importantly though, Nikanor currently has and has had for a while the most votes, and yet Khamisa is the one who claimed. Nikanor, you need to claim.

VOTE COUNT

Khamisa (4): Kirbyoshi, Head_Honcho, Netlava, Yankee
Yankee (4): Khamisa, dramonic, Snow_Bunny, Locke Lamora
Nikanor (3): Vino, animorpherv1, Looker
Vino (1): Nikanor

Not Voting (0)

With 12 Alive, 7 is needed to lynch.
4 Needed to lynch at Deadline.

The extended deadline is October 24th, sometime in the evening.

[Vino]

Most importantly though, Nikanor currently has and has had for a while the most votes, and yet Khamisa is the one who claimed. Nikanor, you need to claim.

Do I? Let me get my role pm, one second.
...
Oops! I deleted it! Looks like I won't be claiming today, sorry guis!

This is unacceptable. Claim now or die.

[Vino]

I told you I can't. I lost the pm, and I don't remember my role.

I wish I had another vote so I could vote you for this bullshit. You know exactly what you role is.

[Vino]

Serves me right for saying you had the most votes in the very some post that the moderator posted a vote count with you having less thank Yankee and Khamisa. Still, Nikanor had more votes at one point than either of those two, and I'd much rather have seen Nikanor claiming than either of those two.

[Vino]

Unvote, Vote Vino

He seems the next most likely to me to be scum. Dont have time at the moment to explain. Sorry, work sucks

You never did actually explain why you think I'm scummy.

[Vino]

Gut feeling then. Even if it's a copout, I suppose I can't really argue against it. I'd like it if you came up with something better.

in retrospect I am liking Vino's attack on Netlava for attacking khamisa even less.

When did this happen? I never said anything about Netlava. If you mean Nikanor, he never said anything about Khamisa. None of this makes any sense.

Netlava, what makes me scumbuddy with Khamisa?

So far none of the arguments against me have any grounding and I find that interesting.

[Vino]

Oh what? I responded to that way back when and you never even dignified it with a reply. I never said he was scummy, I just said that his points were reaching. I also never said he had "too many valid points," I said that he was reading into it too much. It was barely an attack but an observation. You're taking my argument and twisting it into something it's not. Surely you have something else on your list of things worth voting me for.

[Vino]

Oh what? I responded to that way back when and you never even dignified it with a reply. I never said he was scummy, I just said that his points were reaching. I also never said he had "too many valid points," I said that he was reading into it too much. It was barely an attack but an observation. You're taking my argument and twisting it into something it's not. Surely you have something else on your list of things worth voting me for.

You did say you thought all of his points were valid, and you also said "either he's reading into it way too much, or he's trying to frame someone", which you're right is not explicitly saying he is scummy, you are basically trying to discredit him without pushing a case, which is what struck me as scummy originally. I did not respond to your response because you said I was twisting it as you say now, whereas I know I was merely inferring your motives.

OR it was just an observation and you're reading into it too much, same way Netlava read into Khamisa too much.

[Vino]

I don't know how you can say I don't do any scumhunting or that I'm afraid to make a case, my case against Nikanor is pretty strong, I think.

He looks to me like somebody who knows everyone's roles.

Now I wonder what gave you that idea?

[Vino]

I meant alignment.

The question stands.

[Vino]

Don't play dumb Vino

Oh you know I love to Honcho, because you imply that I've been giving off psychic signals that I think some people are town and others are scum when the only person I've said anything definitively on is Nikanor. It's easy to say "Hey everybody, Vino looks like he's not scumhunting!" but I don't see you backing it up. I've done assloads of scumhunting in this game and frankly I'm consternated with your accusations. Do you have any arguments of actual substance? Would you like to point out some posts at least?

dramonic, Mafia is not about math. The lovers are assets that we want to keep alive as long as possible. We can benefit from their night talking and from having confirmed townies later in the game.

[Vino]

What harm can living lovers possibly pose to the town?

[Vino]

*Sigh* I've given my reasoning many times for not wanting to lynch lovers, but I suppose if that's what we're going to do then there's no stopping it. It appears that we're not going to get any seven people to agree on one person to lynch. We should at least know who Khamisa's partner is though, before we do this, so I also think that person should claim. (PS it's not me nice try Yankee.) I'll have no part in it though, my vote stays on Nikanor the Non-Claimer (barring he doesn't turn out to be the last lover.)

[Vino]

Do you believe that both Khamisa and Yankee are town? If so, could you convince the rest of us with your results?

Do what? Make sense.

dramonic, I reserve the right to change my vote if and when Khamisa's partner becomes known. For now I stay.

[Vino]

Animorph is the last lover, huh... That's a surprise, it was totally not my guess.

Yankee I've been on the fence about for a while, with all of the self-voting, but his actions since then and Honcho's arguments have persuaded me towards the "reckless townie" frameset for him. Honcho himself seems to be town as well, despite his faulty arguments on my case. Given that I don't have much of a read on Khamisa and animorph, so I suppose that's where it's got to be.

Unvote, Vote: Khamisa

[Vino]

I knew it.

Vote: ani

[Vino]

I have a quite a plausible motivation for ani to false claim as scum which I will explain once ani makes his statements on the matter.

[Vino]

Right...

"I guess I may as well come out as the last lover"

And after the hammer, "Good bye, world."

I don't detect any internet-sarcasm in either of those. It is clearly a lover claim, and then a suggestion that you would indeed die with Khamisa. How can you call that not specifically claiming being Khamisa's lover?

Or maybe you're just upset that she cheated on you.

VOTE COUNT

animorpherv1 (4): dramonic, Kirbyoshi, Vino, Yankee

Not Voting (6): Snow_Bunny, animorpherv1, Nikanor, Locke Lamora, Head_Honcho, Netlava

With 10 Alive, 6 is needed to lynch.
With 10 Alive, 3 is needed to lynch at deadline.
Deadline is Tuesday 17th November.

[Vino]

Sorry for my low posting volume lately, I've had trouble getting myself away from the wealth of work that needs doing. I apologize for the following wall of text.

So I had a really plausible explanation for ani to have false claimed as scum and I was going to post it but the day was over before I got back to my computer and anyway it turns out it was a conspiracy theory. However it was only a partially untrue conspiracy theory. At the time, if I could have guessed who the partner had been I would have guessed Looker, and I wanted to lynch Khamisa because I didn't like Looker. Looker calling Khamisa "boring" pretty much took the cake for me as her lover, and he had been buddying up to me all D1 and his response to Honcho at the beginning of the game was terrible. When ani claimed instead I was very close to swinging around and voting the other group instead. When it turned out to be Looker after all, I thought that ani was trying to cover for Looker because Looker looked a lot scummier than ani so far in that game, so I voted ani, and that brings us to the present.

During the night I had a long think and a re-read on Nikanor and I've been starting to see things from a different perspective. This statement from his iso 49 strikes out at me:

I notice that the Yankee wagon has been built much too quickly for him to be scum.

Turns out it was highly perceptive. I think our flipped scum was on the train at some point. There are a lot of other reactive statements that I wouldn't expect from mafia.

Nikanor, you need to claim.

Premature to be asking someone to claim.

At the time he had the most votes. As for the other concerns, I refer you to the previous conversation about hyperbole.

i Still think Vino is scum based on how he was pushing to lynch me the entire day

Um, no. I was pushing to lynch Nikanor the entire day. I thought the self-voting was really scummy but I never pushed a lynch. In fact I think at one point I advocated not lynching you because you were a lover. I think your imagination is running off with you.

So, based on your logic you must be scum as well as you pushed for your lynch too. I first voted for you, for a reason, probably not strong enough, but after the day moved on you just earned that voted. And, how was I suppose to know that Khamisa and Looker were the treachearous pair at that moment? You stroke me as the scummiest (even more than Nik, and hence my vote on you and not him).

A nice bit of wifom and circular logic here. Also a tinge of omgus. And I have to refrain myself from correcting the atrocious spelling.

[Vino]

Suits me. Must be more of that selective memory you seem to enjoy cultivating, forgetting that I eventually ended up lynching a lover.

[Vino]

CRAP I didn't realize how long it's been since I've posted last. My first prod ever I'm sorry everybody I've been really busy lately. (For the record the prod isn't what made me come read the thread, I was going to do that today anyway )

A lot has happened since yesterday. I suppose we're in between Snow Bunny and Kirby. Kirby I've never had any problem with and Snow Bunny I can name the ways that she is scummy, so my vote would be on her. I'm willing to hammer but I also agree with Nikanor that caution is warranted, so I won't vote right now.

[Vino]

I really don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion. You haven't had a logical argument towards my scumminess a single time in this game. Your entire strategy has been to call me scum multiple times to see if you can provoke a reaction for your scum-o-scale. If you weren't confirmed town I would vote you for that. I really wish I could make a counter-argument, but I don't have anything to argue against other than "Hey everybody Vino is scum." Would you mind stating exactly what "Negative Vibration" I've been throwing off that tells you I'm scum?

As for my take on this, I thought Snow was the obvious choice before the last page or two, but as previously observed by others Kirby has been acting strange under the circumstances, so I'm reserving my judgment for now.

[Vino]

Let me guess who Honcho is going to vote for.

[Vino]

Vino I will allow you to guess who I am going to vote for.

Guessing won't be necessary. I already know.

I have to re-read before I vote. The choice between dramonic and Netlava is tough.

Also someone mentioned I am lurkerish -- I'm broke and trying to get back on track money wise so I'm working some 80 hour weeks including weekends, that's why I'm not posting so much. I'm always reading the thread at least once per day though even if I'm not responding so if you have a specific question, I should be able to answer within 24 hours.

Also someone else mentioned that I flip-flopped on Snow Bunny, could they elaborate on that?

[Vino]

Honcho you said like four times yesterday that you think I'm scum. I don't know what you expect to get out of me by asking me to say that specifically. Did you think I would say Batman?

VOTE COUNT

dramonic (1): Yankee
Vino (1): Netlava

Not Voting (4): dramonic, Nikanor, Head_Honcho, Vino

[Vino]

Yeah I'm busy right now but I will do my re-read and figure out who to vote maybe late tonight.

[Vino]

Sorry about that, I've been really busy past couple of days. Trying to make rent and all.

[Vino]

Okay let's see.

dramonic isoread:

* Not so pleased he wanted to lynch the claimed lovers.
* In general posts seem short and lacking on scumhunting. Suffers from IIoA.
* He did end up hammering the scum lover, with me on L-1.

Netlava isoread:

* Seemed kinda eager to get the Khamisa lynch through. A town tell ultimately, I suppose.
* Hammered ani pretty quick. Everybody wanted him dead at the time but that hammer read as opportunistic.
* Seems to have had it out for me from day one for some reason.
* Complains about me asking Nik to claim at L-4 which, although technically true, I feel is a misrepresentation.

It's a hard choice and I think they're both reasonably scummy. Ultimately I'm more willing to chalk up dramonic's D1 hammer as a bus than Netlava's D2 hammer as a bus.

Vote: dramonic

I reserve the right to change that at any time.

[Vino]

You can't change a vote after a flip.

[Vino]

Well it's my point.

[Vino]

Your argument is wrong because of my point.

[Vino]

Yeah I was being pedantic. My point is that there's a statute of limitations on that kind of thing -- after the flip you're pretty much stuck with it. I'm not trying to run away from whatever the flip is, I'm just saying that I reserve the right to change the vote because I'm honestly not incredibly convinced of one over the other. Like I said, it's a tough choice. Also if you don't like my fear of commitment, deal with it. All my ex-girlfriends have.

[Vino]

Vote: Netlava

the last scum. Only remaining person who is not me and not confirmed.

Also, how is Yankee still alive?

Mole Edit:

If your Lover dies, you will commit suicide

the night after

they die. You cannot prevent this.

[Vino]

Hmm.

If your Lover dies, you will commit suicide the night after they die.

I guess that means you have until tomorrow night, Yankee.

[Vino]

Netalava and Vino, can you please analyse this for me?

Do you mean analyze the people in the votes or analyze why they voted or analyze the situation or what?

Also why is this particular situation so important to you, out of everything else that's happened?

Yankee, what exactly about the Dramonic lynch yesterday don't you like?

[Vino]

@Yankee: So then you don't actually have any concern with my behavior yesterday, just the fact that I got it wrong, even though three other people did too? I can understand if you said, "The nature of your vote was scummy," but you're saying, "You suck at picking scum," which actually isn't really very scummy at all, just means I suck at the game, apparently. Is this just another instance of people building a case against me without any apparent evidence? If you want to vote me on my voting record, then you need to remember that I cast the deciding vote to lynch the treacherous lover pair. Also this is "woulda coulda" but I would have done the same for SB, if I had been around that day.

Anyways let's analyse some voting patterns, starting with Nikanor. My vote of Nikanor happened much earlier than page 14 for these reasons:

* For refusing to back up his votes with more than just "Don't you agree?"
* For going back and forth between votes to see which one will stick.
* For talking so flippantly about lynching lovers.

Naturally it seems I turned out to be wrong, but I still think the logic was good. I still think lover lynching was a bad idea -- Right now all of the lovers but Yankee are currently dead, a situation that maybe could have been avoided. Anyway...

Just after that ani picks up the vote as well, which I didn't particularly enjoy. At the time it seemed like blatant bandwagoning, as if he thought maybe it would pick up steam if he lended his vote to it.

SB's vote of Nikanor was a lot less scummy than her vote on Yankee which was one of the main things that sold me on her being scum. Still, it appears that she was trying to pick up momentum on a new bandwagon or something, I dunno. Two pages later Looker makes his as well, and now there's two scum on a bandwagon that I started. At the time I didn't actually really notice, because Looker's vote came on the end of a huge post that I didn't entirely digest, as it was mostly nit picking between Nik and Looker, but I think the motive probably was more to build up steam than anything else. Yankee was on Nikanor's wagon for a short time on page 13, so it looked as though it was picking up speed. It didn't stick though, and these two stayed with their votes on Nik until they both changed to Yankee on page 21. I think it's pretty telling that their votes seemed to move together, I suppose it's more apparent in retrospect. I remember suspecting at the time that Looker was Khamisa's lover, and my memory is terrible but I think his change over to Yankee was one of my pieces of evidence.

Shortly after that I was forced to pick a side between Yankee and Khamisa, and that ended D1 with the treacherous scum lynch. So let's look at Khamisa's lynch.

Kirbyoshi and Honcho are flipped town and not very interesting to talk about. Here's Netlava's vote of Khamisa. The entire post is thus:

Unvote, vote: Khamisa

Shortly after he comes up with this, without being pressed for it:

Plus, it bothered me a bit that Khamisa was on Yankee's wagon. I don't think scum would be that eager to bus.

Pretty weak logic in my opinion. Seems more like an excuse to hop on a wagon than it does actual scumhunting. At this point, with both of his buddies on Nikanor's wagon, maybe he thought it was a good time to do some distancing from them. I especially like the follow-up post to that:

Looker, aside from responding to random quotes, who do you think is scum?

Looker responds with her Nikanor vote, dodging the question entirely, and Netlava doesn't take up the case. Looks like scum banter to me.

(I'm just going to continue from here with an iso on Netlava.)

Netlava proceeds to push a Khamisa lynch for a while. I read this as distancing and giving cause for plausible deniability later.

I love this post:

I agree that if Khamisa were scum, Vino would be a likely scumbuddy.

People have paired me with a lot of other people who flipped town in this game.

His last post that day urges more lover lynches, and the from that point he pretty much lurks all the way to Khamisa's hammer, and then all the way through until he hammers animorpherv the next day.

I have to go now, I'll continue later.

[Vino]

Sorry I've been really busy.

I'll hand you the remainder maybe later tonight.

I'm not trying to delay anything I'm just short on time.

[Vino]

For the love of god I had my second degree black belt test yesterday. That was all day and practice the whole day before and today I had to take a trip out of town. I'm really sorry about that.

Also short on content my ass Netlava look who's talking. I posted an entire novel about you that nobody apparently read.

This pisses me off. Does anybody even want to read the remaining thoughts that I have about why I think Netlava connects well to SB and Looker, or does nobody even care?

[Vino]

Netlava, Nikanor asked us to analyze the votes around that time and I did, and that's what the crossed out stuff is. PS - You didn't.

Here's why Netlava matches with Looker and SB:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1889233 - Random vote is on Looker. I've seen a lot of scum open with a vote on their buddy to throw off the voting records. Also does a lot of attacking of Khamisa, knowing that Looker is the partner. Great distancing tactic, especially given Looker's sloppy play.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53#1947453 - Snow bunny L-1 vote. It's obvious SB will be lynched at this point, so this is obvious bussing.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 55#1942055 - An attempt to shift attention by bussing. Especially when earlier she named Netlava as "not scummy enough to mention" or whatever.

He's always attacked me since the beginning of the game without giving any solid reasons (in my opinion) for most of that time, but late in D4 when his endgame is clear, he's already setting up the D5 mislynch by stepping up his attacks at me, such as in 781. He paints my D3 and D4 play as "lurking and non-committal" when in reality it's more like "I'm crazy busy and don't have time to post." A convenient misinterpretation.

When there are flipped scum I always look for connections between them and other players, and Netlava connects rather well with Looker and Snow Bunny. It's a shame that the only people who actually did that were Battosai and Kirbyoshi, who aren't in the game anymore. That's about all I have time for right now.

[Vino]

I fail to see the logic behind any of this, and I'm saddened by the apparent lack of caring about any of the things I've said.

[Vino]

You keep saying I was lurking when Snow Bunny was being lynched. First I resent the word lurking because it implies that I was trying to avoid this game, which isn't true. I didn't post in any of the games I'm in because I was just busy as hell. Between work and black belt test and all of the other things I do I wouldn't get back to my computer until late some days. November 5th was the last post I made before SB was lynched -- two days before my last black belt seminar and three days before my band played a major charity event, after which I had a lot of work to catch up on. I'm not trying to make excuses or AtE or anything, I'm trying to illustrate a point that there's a difference between not being around

while

SB was being lynched and what you're trying to imply that I wasn't around

because

SB was being lynched. You're misinterpreting the events to make me look bad.

Also thanks to the rest of you for listening to what I have to say and not throwing the game away.

[Vino]

Just the one. You'll find though that my general posting frequency is not high in it either, and we shouldn't really be talking about it since it is ongoing.

VOTE COUNT

Netlava (2): Vino, Yankee
Vino (1): Netlava

Not Voting (1): Nikanor

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
2 is needed to lynch at deadline. Which is on December 8th.

[Vino]

I'm finally back from vacation.

Netlava don't you have something more constructive to say than this?

[Vino]

Where is Nik then?

[Vino]

I have no problem with the QT being posted.

Good game, you guys got my fair and square. I didn't think I stood much of a chance honestly. I'll post a post-game wrap-up of my behavior when I get the time. (I wasn't lying about being insanely busy!)

[Vino]

I thought you both would die during that night. Honcho probably would have come after me too though, I didn't really have any options. If both of you had died like I thought then maybe I could have stood a chance. Thinking you would both die I picked Honcho because of my bro love for him.

[Vino]

It was indeed a well-modded game. You were prompt with your responses, so much so that I was afraid I was going to get found out because of my online habits. If a guy only comes online once per day and someone always dies when the same hour, it looks rather suspicious! I also enjoyed the vote count at the top of every page, I think it should be a sitewide rule for mods.

Anyway I'll keep it short. I actually didn't read my role PM until near the end of Day 1 and a lot of the things I said early in D1 were town motivated. That includes not wanting to lynch the lovers, the "scummier and scummier" comment, and the "too many arguments" logic. I don't know how Honcho nailed me, because I thought I was doing genuine scum hunting even going into D2. Not wanting to lynch the lovers was a sincere argument, although after a while I began to see it from a scum point of view where they don't want any lovers to be lynched as long as possible. Still I think if I were town I would also not want lovers lynched or even confirmed for as long as possible, because they are such huge targets. When I asked Nikanor to claim I honestly thought he had the most votes on him.

Not reading my role PM is I think a tactic that I think I won't use again. Being blindsided like that ended up being a liability.

I feel like my scum partners were a bit obvious. I did a great deal to try to distance myself from them, although I suppose in the end it didn't work. I regretted having to kill Kirbyoshi because I think I could have convinced him I was town. The first scum-motivated thing I did from my point of view was pretend to change my opinion on SB. I knew it would look bad and I probably shouldn't have, but at the time I was not paying as close attention to the game as I should have been. I really was absent because I was busy, not because I was avoiding the lynch, I actually wanted to cast the L-1 or hammer vote to bus her some more and was disappointed when I got home that day to see it was already done. The AtE's at the end weren't intentional, they were genuine frustration about nobody paying attention that I guess leaked into my posts. D4 and D5 were pretty much me doing everything I could to buy time and make false logics and distance myself from the other two.

I'm interested to hear you guys' opinions on whether my alternate scheme that I mentioned in the QT may have worked.

[Vino]

I think he just made a mistake.