Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[pablito]

Ok. well I'll read more later.

unvote: Zer0ph34r

[pablito]

eeeeeeeeeeehhh...until I read somethin.

vote: cephrir

just because it's the highest wagon.

[pablito]

If you really look back at the corporation, he was actually voting ceph before he left. I've only looked at his posts in isolation though. I'll do a propa readthrough maybe tomorrow.

[pablito]

eeeeeeeeeeehhh...until I read somethin.

vote: cephrir

just because it's the highest wagon.

You do realize this is bandwagoning in its boldest form?

Damn, I thought I was throwing away my vote.

[pablito]

Yes, I can choose to not vote. But I choose to vote. In the midst of my read through. I found this. I like it.

This is a gem find.

If it were up to me to start discussion? Putting extra votes on somebody to start off a small bandwagon often yields results. This works worse in games with few players (if you have 7 players, 3 votes is already L-1) since bandwagons can get out of hand quickly, but it usually works.
For more effect I might fake a small argument out of something. This is sort of what my "OMGUS so early in the morning" was for, although the emoticon kinda ruined it, as it appeared.

Duly noted ODDin. Duly noted.

[pablito]

Sorry, I guess I should also get more used to quote tags again.

Time for my play-by-play readthrough.

For me the game started when MadCrawdad pointed out ODDin's attempted to create discussion. Cephrir kinda blunted that discussion by making a joke of it. What's more of it is that it points mostly at ODDin's vote on zerophear, not so much at ODDin's inconsistency - which is what I thought seemed to be the more salient point.

On the topic of policy lynching to get out of random voting, well this is near-vanilla. Some lynch is going to get us out of D1. Although with this much time now, we will have something.

On the discussion of hohum and pressuring/annoying scum to make tells. I like the idea. The point though, is to annoy everyone into making tells, then later going through it all and seeing what's genuine and not to figure out if it's a scum tell or town tell. It can be helpful to get the tells, but a good town can figure out later on. Then again, I can be willing to see how this falls out and figure out what we want.

All the while when we got out of "random vote stage", it appeared that KDub stuck mainly with theory posts, rather than moving into pointing anyone out.

FOS: KDub

It's all "contributory without moving things along". Maybe the noted suspicions come later, but KDub is very hands-off without looking like it.

Okay, I'm at page 10 now and am leaving for a bit. I'll work on it later.

[pablito]

I lost the final part of my re-read, but basically I don't like how KDub or Khamisa are playing. Both are not going beyond the surface in their analyses. So something like

FOS: Kdub, Khamisa

[pablito]

I don't get it. Alduskkel. Where's this coming from?

[pablito]

I don't get why either of you would even go with this argument.

[pablito]

v/la until like Tuesday.

[pablito]

It sucks that I couldn't see cephrir's play unfold in real time, because honestly I forget what made him look scummy in my eyes now. As for khamisa, in the previous reads, I didn't pick up anything from khamisa, it's only been what others have pointed out for me.

The only behaviour that really stuck out for me before was kdub's. However, with khamisa, I can be arsed to actually look at some of the posts to see if I feel the same as others do. But right now, whatever.

[pablito]

I thought about unvoting, but really I can't be arsed.

[pablito]

Oh, I can't be arsed to catch up tonight. But I shall try another night.

[pablito]

ODDin, not really. I will after sunday perhaps when the thing that's been taking away my attention is over and done with. But seeing that there is a deadline, yeah, I think I'll give it a chance Sunday perhaps.

[pablito]

I was a bit surprised that there were two quick votes for Khamisa. If there are votes to provoke a lurker, out of the gate in D2 is not the best time.

I'm liking this madcrawdad case on andytony.

Why did you think about unvoting, Pablito? Why couldn't you be arsed? How hard is it to type the word 'unvote'?

I didn't like the case at that moment, but fact was that we weren't getting anywhere and I'd much have rather had some lynch than nothing. In the end, I realized, I actually did like the case and wanted to keep my vote. Yeah, not the best reason, but whatever.

I can agree with KDub that Khamisa forgot about the doctor. Also I agree that mafia no-kill was stupid.

Khamisa really left a lot to desire with that response. But I think that the VLA can excuse that.

At the end of this read, I realise that wow, I really didn't contribute much.

In terms of all the definitions of OMGUS, it really doesn't matter what you call it, but I believe that subconsciously at some level, when one person feels on the defense, it's only natural to be suspicious of the other person. But there's also a quality of AT's OMGUSity that's strange. What I remember is that AT felt disappointment over MCD's case on AT. That's what brought it all on. I'll have to think a little more on what it would all mean to me especially in terms of scumminess.

[pablito]

I don't get why there's a sudden vociferous argument against active lurkers at this very moment when we're actually going quicker than ever right now. Sure I'm lurking, but with this much information out there and with good questioning going on, I don't give a feck about lurkers. Unless perhaps, this is a good scum tactic to take the easy way out. I'm talking a lot about those who are attacking khamisa - who I don't think is not scummy - but right now I don't think is a good place to put focus on.

[pablito]

Let's go with AndyTony

[pablito]

My laziness is preventing me. I still haven't through all his defenses.

[pablito]

I was just gonna say the same thing as madcrawdad.

Kise, why don't you think you might last long?

[pablito]

eh.

vote: AndyTony

[pablito]

AndyTony, you make my head hurt. I vote you. That's what I'm doing now.

[pablito]

@ pablito & hohum:
Do you not believe that there is at least one scum among the several lurkers in the game? I think there almost has to be. And if so, how do we pick the scum out when there is nothing to go by when analyzing them? Even if we successfully catch the scum among the active players, we're going to be in trouble on D3 or D4 when we have gotten no information on over half the remaining players.

No I don't KDub, at least not yet, I think it's far too soon to assume anything about the whole composition of scum team. Yes, it's a likely possibility, but I think you're way too steadfast in assuming that lurking is going to hurt this town in the future. We need to get information and that is by lynching scum. We have no true investigative roles, so we have to lynch one scum first. I can agree that everyone deserves some focus in the early days, but the way you're doing it is by singling out one specific lurker and not looking at others. In fact KDub, you seem to comment a lot, but the only one person I can remember you ever even putting any effort toward is Khamisa. Granted, you started a lot of focus on Khamisa, but if you're going to throw a blanket statement about all lurkers, you better damn well start poking at them all. In fact, I almost think that KDub's argument on Khamisa is inflexible because KDub is being too cautious and is not pulling any punches because KDub doesn't want to be caught in a later day. I've said it before, but

FOS: KDub

Khamisa has clear and existing pressure. Khamisa has not checked in. I don't see the worth of one extra vote or one extra question at this time. Khamisa is on notice. But let's add the pressure once Khamisa comes back or a replacement is found. There is no added benefit at this moment in time. It all depends on whether these votes on Khamisa right now are votes to lynch or votes to pressure.

pablito: This is *exactly* the time to notice lurkers. Because scum want to lurk. If the scum team sees lots of townies arguing among each other - it's the best time for them to sit back and do nothing, while the townies are busy lynching each other.
It's important to lift your head from what's currently going on and shake up those who aren't responding much. Everyone should have a say. If you don't do this, you're allowing the scum to easily slip under the radar, and then later in the game, when you go back to reread - for instance, to see how people reacted to someone who has later flipped town or scum - you discover that some people didn't say anything on the subject, and there's nothing you can discern from that.

So, @all: please say your thoughts on the current events. Mainly, on AT / MCD / Al (unless you already have, of course).

ODDin, I don't like this tone from you. Not in a personal sense, but it's way too desperate to try to convince me to look at lurkers. I'm all for giving them focus and putting them on notice, but I am far from convinced that scum is necessarily lurking at this very moment, and that this can be considered a lynch-worthy affair. With a deadline, you're only putting false hope by attacking a lurker. It is a stall tactic right now, and my personal suspicion is mainly on those who are bombarding everyone with this propaganda. I do NOT want to be disappointed when August 27th suddenly comes around and we have a replacement or Khamisa back and we have very little to go on. This can go similarly for pinning all hopes on lynching AndyTony. I will gladly admit that my vote on AT is weak. But right now, I'm fine with where it is, because AT is giving me information based on how I'm voting. I am voting him to pressure. Also scum don't always want to lurk.

I won't attack lurkers, but I am all for attacking people who have little focus but have lots of comments out there, ie: KDub or Kise. Lurkers need some honey so you can throw the vinegar in their face and scald their eyes. I will not take a hard throw to a lurker, because I don't think it's going to get us the answers that we truly need. You guys are still in the mindset that "Khamisa only answered when there was a lot pressure!!! Let's try it again!!!" Well, if it's not working now, then I suggest to try switching up your tactics. If Khamisa is truly actively lurking and actually reading the game at this very moment, I doubt Khamisa is going to be arsed to answer if there's just walls of text being thrown at Khamisa and lots of questions to answer to defend. Maybe Khamisa would, who knows, but that's not my style, and I will not join in this lurker mob.

Note - there was something in what ODDin said that gave me the sense that the language was a bit off - as if ODDin was responding from a scum-perspective. I will re-read that later and post it when I get a chance. I'm off now for the night.

[pablito]

yo

[pablito]

@Pablito
-I'm finding your gameplay extremely uncharacteristic when compared to the last game I was in with you (as AA23). You were fair, calculated, positive, and very helpful to the town. Hence I'm a tad put off by your mentality to simply "meh" - throw a vote willy nilly somewhere.

Whichever game that was, it must've been months ago. Congrats on remembering. I have abilities stored up, but I have no motivation for this game at this very moment in time. Part of it is that there's walls of text and a strong game mentality for logic. I tend to rely on gut and genuineness. There are a few people I see as not having genuine language: Kise, Khamisa, and KDub.

Anyway, I feel like unmotivatedly doing this.

unvote, vote: Kise

[pablito]

I decided to go for full-out skim on ODDin instead of just looking at that one post where I picked up vibes. ODDin doesn't really seem to be in any radar at the moment, and I feel that there deserves to be some sort of look on him. But the reason why ODDin was not on my list is my memory failed me. But thanks for reminding me. On this re-read I'm suddenly remembering that I had issues with ODDin in D1 as well. This could be worthwhile. There was never a lessening/clearing of any thought on ODDin. I just got sidetracked by my cases on Kise and KDub (and their votes on Khamisa).

In D1, what's interesting is that ODDin did nothing to actually question or poke anything at Pitstop before voting for pitstop. From what I can get out of skimming the whole entire argument, andytony called out pitstop on being lazy. pitstop kinda omgussed and then ODDin jumped on the case as well.

ODDin tries to coax khamisa into talking about pitstop, but then eventually votes cephrir. I'm gonna skip rest of D1, because while ODDin's language seems genuine, I don't know what to think of his motives and such. And I really want to get to the meatier D2 (or at least I hope).

In D2 early posts from ODDin, I have some weird feelings about the language. There's sense of obligation that he's trying to pull out of people.

Alduskkel:

I have a feeling you're trying to "make amends" with hohum.

He's been accusing you in late D1, so you want to make sure he's fine with you, and thus you follow his points and go for AT. Also, you're latching onto other people's cases almost all the time - ceph, khamisa, AT.

hohum: You promised to answer my questions (post 839), you didn't. You also didn't answer Alduskkel's 843.
Also, I really don't like your attitude towards AT. Your own case against him isn't nearly strong enough to warrant a lynch at this point,

and you must see that for yourself

. You didn't even say anything regarding MCD's case, you're just saying "good, more arguments on AT". You're being horribly narrow-minded and you're trying to push for an early lynch.
...
Also, pablito, you seem unable to be arsed to do lots of things. Unvote D1, catch up.

I wonder if you can be arsed to play the game.

See my bolding for examples of where I feel that ODDin is using persuasive language to create an obligation for players that they have to live up to. Guilt I often see as genuine, but it's a pathetic move in my mind. But it smells more like frustration more often than not. But guilting others is an advanced scum tactic that can be pulled off by a skilled player. It's just way too many YOU YOU YOU statements that I don't like. Maybe it's a personal preference, but there is strong persuasion that is underlying all these statements. Now I just have to look at why ODDin was using this language in the first place.

There's just a different quality that I was getting when comparing AndyTony to ODDin in this type of obligation. I sense a lot of what AndyTony is saying is coming from himself and his own perspective. I can't say it clears him from being scummy, but the sense I get from him is that he's being fairly internally consistent, his inconsistencies happen to be who he is, not necessarily him losing "scum perspective". But with ODDin, there wasn't necessarily a moment why he needed to be so frustrated. AndyTony was on the defense, but I want to know what was pissing off ODDin at that time.

Hohum: you're avoiding posts 839 (mine), which ask you questions you really should answer. This is (pathetic / childish / scummy) (circle the correct answer, possibly more than one).
You sort of answered al's question, though quite poorly. I guess that earns you a medal.

Also, you don't own the game. I guess it makes you feel all happy and important to tell us whom we lynch and whom we don't, but this is only 1/13 your decision.

...
pablito:

This is *exactly* the time to notice lurkers. Because scum want to lurk. If the scum team sees lots of townies arguing among each other - it's the best time for them to sit back and do nothing, while the townies are busy lynching each other.
It's important to lift your head

from what's currently going on and shake up those who aren't responding much. Everyone should have a say. If you don't do this, you're allowing the scum to easily slip under the radar, and then later in the game, when you go back to reread - for instance, to see how people reacted to someone who has later flipped town or scum - you discover that some people didn't say anything on the subject, and there's nothing you can discern from that.
...
Kise: While I can resepct that you may be busy at the moment, you are still expected to read the entire game. You knew its length when you agreed to replace.

If it was too much for you, you shouldn't have agreed to replace in the first place.

It's just that a lot of these comments have a hint of anger at the specific person it's directed toward. And usually when I see anger bubbling underneath the surface in comments directed toward others, it's because there's either genuine dislike, frustration with that person or desperation (often in defence). Considering that ODDin himself was switching course and voting Alduskkel in that very same post, I don't get it, because would he express frustration based on who's voting whom? I just need to know where it's all coming from. I think I know the answers to this all, but I'm not understanding the motivation behind it all. And that's what I tend to look at. If there's no motivation for something, then it can likely be a scum tell.

I hope this explains why I said what I did about ODDin earlier, MCD.

[pablito]

andytony, so I make one post about oddin, and you like don't even bother with me anymore. And now you're asking people oh, what do you think about pablito's post?

before you were harping on me. really? one post was all it took?

[pablito]

unvote, vote: Kdub

[pablito]

KDub, you came right out of the gate with Khamisa, and I still don't like that wagon. I blame you for the focus on Khamisa taking up the entire day. I'd blame hohum bringing up focus on AndyTony, but at least that was productive.

[pablito]

I hated that you guys kept piling case upon case upon Khamisa but did not bother to look elsewhere during that entire time. We know what Khamisa's done and said, but the fact is that it was a perfect waste of time to have to wait for Khamisa. It was opportunistic, and that's what's so bad about. Khamisa can hardly defend and everyone knew it. All that while, people are trying to get others onto the case on Khamisa rather than trying to poke and provoke others in the meanwhile. We can't waste time like that. Even if we all come in the end to lynch Khamisa as a mafiate, it was still a waste of time to have piled upon case upon case on Khamisa while we could have been poking and provoking more of people in this game.

For those of you that made an argument that we need to focus on lurkers now, it was a great opportunity to behind that argument while there were plenty of people that had not a single moment of the spotlight during this day. I am focusing on the process of the situation. It was a poor excuse of a day (aside from what we all got out of andytony). That's why it was stupid. I don't like how it happened, not the fact that it did happen. You want to look at Khamisa? Sure. Do it, and then when Khamisa came back, you can go back to it.

Who do I want to lynch? It's very much been KDub since D1, but I know there's no support. In the end, I think Kise would be a fine lynch. Reasons? NONE. I don't want to give no reasons anymore for today. Why? Because there has been very few people budging today.

Count how many people have switched votes today. The number is less than five probably. I cba to look back. But there's a strange inflexibility in this game, and I think it's gonna hurt us come deadline.

[pablito]

MCD - yes, very few cases were made. Some people were strongly pushing cases that took too long to resolve. But the worst part was that the town let those cases take the forefront the entire time.

You can't expect me to switch targets just because my main suspect goes V/LA.

Wow. KDub. I didn't ask you to switch targets, I expect you to not have just one target. And that is a sign that is a scumtell. You can't just expect to rely on just one case this entire day and that's what I'm trying to say. You never bothered to let yourself look at anyone else in depth. You had some comments here and there, but you never even entertained the thought of going elsewhere. Now if you had made a secondary case on someone else in the meanwhile, or at least had open eyes or even bothered to poke and provoke a little more, then maybe the town would have more open cases right now. I have no problem with you focusing on Khamisa at this very moment, what I do have a problem is that the entire time Khamisa was gone, you could've worked a little harder.

I haven't switched targets by the way, you can tell I have more than one target. That's what I'm talking about.

The case against Khamisa itself is not what I talk about, it's the process underwhich it happened. And the process in which Khamisa was talked about is scummy. I am not giving my opinion on the case on Khamisa itself. I believe that whether I actually think Khamisa is scummy or not, that can be left aside for the moment, and I will look at the people that built the case up against Khamisa. I don't think very highly of Khamisa's play in here, but this anger and frustration of the town today, or at least for me, is how Khamisa's case played out.

I think I can both find Khamisa somewhat scummy as well as the players that built up the case. I am not excluding people from my foresight at this time, only because they are attacking each other, or what not.

I really can't get over how KDub is talking about "switching" targets. I seriously think that it is good gameplay as town to not just have one target. And I think Kdub needs a lot more looking at tomorrow.

I'm going to read some of Alduskel right now. That's a name I've put on the backburner for a while.

And if you care to have a reason for why I would vote Kise it would be because of the timing of Kise's vote. Way too opportunistic.

[pablito]

Actually ODDin, in response to my case-post against you, it makes sense to me. That was the answer I would've expected.

However, I do have to admit, that AndyTony was pushing my case for me way too much than I would have liked. Almost as if he was trying to get an extra case out there in the open...

FOS:AndyTony

[pablito]

On my skim so far, I don't mind doing this

unvote, vote: Kise

.

I'm actually feeling a lot better about Kdub now.

[pablito]

@Kise

In the truest form of the word, I'm not defending anyone. I'm attacking the process under which Khamisa came into focus. I still haven't commented on my own thoughts on Khamisa as much. And if you'd rather vote me for that reason, I'll accept that. But I am not defending Khamisa so much as attacking those who came onto Khamisa under a fruitless town.

There's something strange about this vote though Kise. You are jumping off the biggest wagon at a crucial time before a lynch. While I admittedly have not been on many wagons today at all, you are dropping off. I could almost call that opportunistic as well, but you should probably explain what you're trying to do.

Really? Attack me at this point in time? Yeah, I guess that's what I did, so I'd be hypocritical. But what I do with my words and my votes do not always match. However, you're doing it now. And what you're doing with your vote is just confusing. My style is to focus on words and with votes differently.

I'm not very bothered by that vote. so just let me know whether you are trying to lynch me, trying to pressure me or are trying to throw away your vote.

Limited Access this weekend.

[pablito]

I can be up for this

unvote, vote: chinaman

[pablito]

Hey guys. I'm gonna make a random vote at this stage.

unvote, vote: chinaman

[pablito]

If you're going to throw a trap vote...especially at this close to the deadline, then why do it when you can't even retract it within a short amount of time? To throw a trap vote right before you go on V/LA is just revisionist history.

Clearly, chinaman is the one that must go. Easy going. And if needed, we can look back at what was going on with zero earlier today (as well as yesterday).

[pablito]

I'm not fully opposed to Kise's list I suppose.

Anyway Kise, were you always intending to go back to voting khamisa or was there a bigger purpose for that earlier vote? Or is there something about recent events that changes things?

I'm very much liking how the end of this day is shaping up now. Much much more productive in my eyes.

[pablito]

It's a productive day now because there's more vote flippity floppity and more cases on more people at a crucial time period.

I said that I was not fully opposed to Kise's list of hohum, khamisa, chinaman and pablito. Therefore, I agree that there can be at least one scum if not two in his list. And I am fully aware that he put me there as well. I still think Kise is opportunistic and should be under scrutiny, but I do believe that my focus today will remain only on khamisa, chinaman, alduskkel (although unlikely that I'll actually form enough of opinion on that one) and andytony until deadline. Just saying that Kise's list includes people I wouldn't mind looking at as well. I do not fully agree with that list, nor do I fully oppose it.

If anything right now, my list would be some combination of the list above minus one or two and add in Kise with it.

[pablito]

Cool beans Kdub. My opinion of you has been doing some type of 180.

[pablito]

pablito, has your stance of Kdub changed now that khamisa flipped, since he was the 1st on her wagon and stayed there? Also, I know it was rather long, but could you please address this post?

I'll get to that post later. Just checking in.

Kise, my stance on Kdub switched before the end of last day. I pretty much took Kdub off my list as proven in these two posts:

I said that I was not fully opposed to Kise's list of

hohum, khamisa, chinaman and pablito

. Therefore, I agree that there can be at least one scum if not two in his list. And I am fully aware that he put me there as well. I still think Kise is opportunistic and should be under scrutiny, but I do believe that my focus today will remain only on khamisa, chinaman, alduskkel (although unlikely that I'll actually form enough of opinion on that one) and andytony until deadline. Just saying that Kise's list includes people I wouldn't mind looking at as well. I do not fully agree with that list, nor do I fully oppose it.

If anything right now,

my list would be some combination of the list above minus one or two and add in Kise with it.

Cool beans Kdub. My opinion of you has been doing some type of 180.

My list at the end of last day was: khamisa, chinaman and Kise. alduskkel was iffy, but was kinda on there. Kdub was no longer on my list. There was a stronger work ethic that I saw there that impressed me. I finally understood more about Kdub, he no longer felt opportunistic.

Kise, I felt that your vote was opportunistic, but to place your vote on khasmisa the time that you did and to not remove it...well that pretty much clears you from my thoughts.

[pablito]

Note. I was starting to write up my response to Kise regarding that one post in D2, but then I suddenly yawned five times consecutively and I cba more to type up more and it was starting to get lengthy. Next time I check in, I'll get working on it again. Once I write up that post, I'll work on looking over more of what was said today.

[pablito]

Addressing Kise's D2 post that he wants me to look at:

At the time that I wrote that response you had just unvoted Khamisa and then voted a player who did not have many votes (me). It just seemed that your unvote came at a significant time. You created a situation in which I felt momentum was moving away from Khamisa. But the fact that you went back to voting Khamisa, and gave the exact vote needed to get Khamisa lynched in a deadlined-situation...well that puts me at ease. You could've unvoted at any time to give Khamisa three votes only, or anybody else on Khamisa at the end of D2 could've done the same thing. But instead all four of them stuck. Any move and Khamisa would've not dropped. That's not really looking opportunistic anymore. So really I can't say that there was any linking - to answer that question.

There was no problem with you expressing your views on khamisa/hohum/me. In fact, I kind of enjoyed it, because it opened a line on someone new. And that was my big thing on D2. Let's not just focus on khamisa and andytony. I didn't care how khamisa turned up just to figure out anything and I didn't care if you acted one way or another. At that very time, whether khamisa flipped town or scum, the fact was that you placed your original vote on khamisa at a very time that moved momentum STRONGLY toward khamisa. d3x had just replaced in tied the vote at 3-3 and suddenly you re-voted at that very time. That's why I saw it as opportunistic. Plus, you had even admitted that you hadn't looked over the thread when you started tunneling on khamisa. The vote just came at a time when I didn't see any reason for you to put your vote back on khamisa for much reason on what the flow of all arguments went for. Later on, the vote came on for different reasons, and I felt they were genuine at that time and the evidence lead up to that point for you.

1) More specifically, I'm doing what exactly?
2) And what is confusing? Did I explain too little of why I'm voting you, or what?
...
Could you elaborate, i.e. give a fictitious example of what you mean here, please?

You were continuing to put a large focus on khamisa and you didn't seem gung-ho on lynching me when you put your vote on me. It just seemed so omgus, when you said you tried not to do it. It just seemed to be that your wanted your vote to intend to be on your #1 suspect (who was me at that time), but in reality, I didn't see the full force behind your vote. I still thought you were more for getting khamisa lynched at that time. (if I remember correctly, I'm going only off of memory.)

Whereas with me, I was willing to put my #1 suspect off at that time (Kdub) and vote somewhere else where I thought a case could be built up. My vote on you was to pressure you and help you flail a lot so that votes could fall on top of you and we could get somewhere, maybe even your lynch. But what you did with me - voting me - it just seemed futile and you really weren't pushing hard enough to get me lynched. At that time it felt a lot of "Hey, look here, I'm voting someone new! Look at me make a new case that can be opened up tomorrow! But I'm just kidding, I know where my vote will always go, I'm just playing around for today so I look good in the town's eyes". But I admit, that such a play like that would've only worked if khamisa flipped town. So I really don't put much weight on you getting "distracted by pablito" in that interlude, anymore. But at that very moment (all the time you were voting me), I believed khamisa was going to flip town.

I have learned (the hard way) that just because mafia defend a person, does not always mean they are partners; they could just want to look good knowing that the person they're defending will flip town. Basically, I'm putting khamisa on the backburner, and hohum too. I still think it's rather risky of him to do what he's been doing, not to mention he's falsely saying (believing?) khamisa is being voted because of inactivity.

That's your explanation on me. But I don't remember if you saw it here in this game, but I buddy up to people even when I'm town. In Kingmaker 2 people saw me buddy up to glork and pj when my intent was solely to keep them around because I thought they were the most transparent players - and they would make mistakes as they go along. I have a strong preference of keeping higher-profile scum in the game longer and going after their partners when I can. I've been out of play though, so I'm not sure if that meta would still stand up, as I'm just getting more impatient and frustrated-disgusted in this game more than anything - and I was never that type of player before. And as scum I've defended townies before. In my first game, I defended a non-partner before. Luckily for the town it was the SK and I got vigged. It happens.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, and I still cba to research the exact posts and everything, but that's how I remember things happening off my memory. I don't know if that explains why I ever looked at Kise, and for the most part, he's not my focus today, and I have really no interest at looking at Kise today or for the near future. We have a scum, our focus should be on how people reacted to khamisa - and that's what I'm gonna try to do.

[pablito]

I'm not feeling well atm. Will read later.

Prod answered.

[pablito]

Actually, no, I've been pretty drunk since my last posting. I'd rather post sober.

[pablito]

What was I suppose to say? -- "HEY, yall, vote pablito NAO!" (???)

Nah, you didn't have to at all. But it really did seem like a half-assed attempt at that time. In retrospect, I'm not sure.

@DRK - Your case on the corporation means little to me. You can have it and keep it and I'm fine and you're justified, but I won't respond or defend what the corporation did. I think that's assumed though.

Surprise, surprise, another bad post from pablito. Here's how I read this post. "Khamisa is scummy, but maybe we're being too hasty. By the way, AT looks really scummy. Let's look at him instead." Hindsight is so much fun.

Actually, that was the entire intent of the post I had made. My entire thing was that Khamisa was being suspected and I didn't like that question upon question was being piled on Khamisa and little else was happening in the meanwhile (which there really was at the time). It can be seen as a distraction technique, but the entire time I was attacking the process - not the fact that it was happening. And yes, I do realize that in retrospect this looks extremely scummy.

These pages are full of some hardcore tunneling. Everyone (well, almost everyone) is ready to lynch Khamisa, who isn't there, and everyone is attacking AT instead. Meanwhile, pablito is going by almost unnoticed.

Yeah I agree. That's what happened. It's lamentable. At some point I tried looking at others, but no one followed. I wasn't bothered much by that. I didn't feel like following the crowd at that time. And while I went unnoticed, there was very little attention on everyone at that time. You were either for Khamisa or AT. If there was any other argument at that time, it was not being pushed hard enough. There were other arguments, but because AT was having to defend himself so much, most of the focus was spent on that at that time. AT has a tendency to post wall of posts. And therefore his wall of posts inadvertently silenced everything else.

So yeah, Ald, Pablito, or Hohum. Whichever has the best case/bandwagon today is the one I will be voting for. I have zero issuesh lynching any one of those 3 today, though I would prefer it to be either Ald or Pablito for today. Hohum is scummy but mainly due to lurking and poor posting. I would prefer to have him replaced over lynched mainly because he could just be a worthless town. We could get a better read on his role that role was occupied by someone more active.

my 2 cents.

I throroughly enjoy how you're placing the onus upon the town to decide your vote. It's a great way to externalize the blame if any of us turn up town. Which I know for a fact at least one of us will. I wonder which one. I wouldn't be surprised if a second one shows up town as well. I won't dare go far as to say that all three of us would, because that's not likely. "Being okay" with a lynch is what got us in trouble with cephrir in the first place. I was like that in D1. At this point in time, (and up until post 1479) if chinaman is going to continue that mood, it's not doing well for everyone.

Not much more to say from these pages, since a lot of the focus was on Khamisa. Pablito finally made one or two good posts (I think one), but he still looks very scummy. I've gotten some bad vibes from d3x ever since he replaced in.

I haven't gotten many scummy vibes from d3x since he came in, tbh.

@DRK - I feel that you're tunneling on me because of something you saw in the corporation. Now that you've seen a lot of me...who do you think is more likely to be tied to me. I know I'll show up as town, but I just want to know who you link to me - for better or worse. You might've said them, but I cba to look back anymore, you already got me to write this post. That's all you're getting.

I am appreciative that hohum has been trying. Better than nothing.

I am going to post right now before I get further, because I know that the posts after my check-in post 1519 are going to piss me off.

[pablito]

I haven't been sick since September 9th, but I sure haven't cared about mafiascum at all since then. I'd actually much rather be replaced, if you all are going to yell at me. I don't respond well to pressure. And it sure as hell won't make me look at things rationally.

lol. Also, I was sick because I was hungover. Correlations, babe. I'm actually glad that my idiotic drunk posts prompted some discussion, but I guess I shouldn't be happy that it's taking focus away from what I said.

Right now, I see Kdub as the most town person, and I see chinaman as the scummiest (without doing further research) because chinaman needs to pick a suspect and go with it. Despite his willingness to lynch three of his suspects, I find it to be a scumtell that he's not pushing one more than the others.

Others that I see as towny are dx3, MCD , Kise - a little, there's some doubt, but not much anymore, and AT.

Neutral is DRK - because lobster never pinged with me at all, but I'm just not liking DRK's hyperfocus (this may be personal and not analytic - admittedly).

That leaves chinaman, Ald, and hohum as a far third. And it's mainly by process of elimination. And this list of three doesn't seem good to me at all. So this would mostly be my list of top suspect. chinaman still remains top suspect for me.

[pablito]

I'm going to look at chinaman's posts through anti-chinaman eyes. You all can make different perspectives, but from my eyes, what he says can be construed as scummy, but this is why I'll maintain the case.

I do have a thought though. If he passionately wants Kham alive (still), and you are wanting to vote kham off and if she flips scum, then go after Hohum...why not flip flop that and see if hohum is scum and then go after kham if he is? give him his wish so to speak. If you ask me, giving ultimatums is scummy. either he is really trying to protect a scum buddy, or he is sacrificing himself (as scum) to make kham get lynched after he turns up scum. You ask for my case, here it is in the form of a question for you: what sort of town player wants to keep someone alive so passionately in day 1 or day 2...or ever for that matter? The only people who know anyone elses' alignments are scum. Only reason to not want someone lynched is if you know what their alignment is.

Context: chinaman came in when khamisa had a wagon. let's assume that chinaman is scum. if chinaman knows that he must bus khamisa, this is a very clever post. He is asking AT (the most vocal of anyone in this game at that point) to see if hohum could be lynched first (knowing very well that khamisa is going to be lynched anyway, but this buys a ML). chinaman does say that his biggest goal was to provoke hohum into doing something significant, and he is being very consistent with that approach.

Later chinaman votes AT with absolutely no buildup on AT, and later explains it. However, I'm curious as to why such a trap would need to be built if the whole goal was to provoke hohum into doing something - which nothing happened. It was a clever attempt to get others to respond, which chinaman got. However, chinaman is way too into the idea about quicklynches. Also, chinaman is placing a criterion to determine what's going on. Chinaman's list relies on who is lurking - that was always hohum and khamisa. This gives chinaman the opportunity to say that khamisa was scummy all the while never having to be on the wagon. the stray vote for hohum is very convenient for chinaman as scum. The only person that was picked up from this trap was me. And chinaman has not strayed from it.

thirdly, kdub, lobster, kise, and AT were all on the vote for kham. correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there was some serious busing going on, at least 3 of those 4 are most likely town. I would say that if any of them weren't town, it would prolly be whoever voted last for her. even then though, AT had an equal number of votes so unless AT is scum and bussed kham, then AT is most town.

I don't like how chinaman throws numbers and likelihoods around. I don't believe these numbers, they seem to come from mystical stats book. but this is a personal gripe on strategy, this has nothing to do with scumminess.

Hohum, now that Kham turned up scum, how do you feel about AT now? Still want to lynch him?

Actually, the person that chinaman most needs to direct this question to is AT. Just to be consistent with D2.

I'm curious to hear from Pablito now too. Are you going to get the bandwagon going on me as well pablito? I know you voted for me D2, so I do not doubt you will do so again. Let me pre-preemptively ask you to explain your case against me in the same post you cast your vote if that's what you indeed intend on doing.

No. I refuse to do so. Also, thanks for attacking my character before I even get to throw anything. Smart move.

some thoughts of my own for you to chew on. I have the feeling that there were at least one if not two scum voting for AT in D2. Do you (in general) think that is a fairly accurate statement?

I really hate this statistics book, btw. I won't disagree that it's a possibility, but I'd much rather you actually look at WHO might look scummy out of those voting for AT, rather than just talking about the possibilities. There's just this diffuse sense of focus that I keep getting from chinaman that bothers me. There's this lack of intensity in pinpointing in anything not about me.

The scummiest things I find about chinaman are still the vote flipping around trick in D2. It was not at an opportune time to play "let me trap someone by voting AT" and at the end of the day, chinaman is on hohum to provoke - while still "being okay" with khamisa's lynch. At the beginning of D3 - chinaman hasn't been as vocal about pushing hohum-lurker as he was D2 (which is reasonable). The vote-flipping still gets me as something foolish - and the vote was on AT of all people. It was a momentum move.

[pablito]

It takes me thirty minutes to write a post, I guess. Congrats to you I was already in the middle of writing it. I hope it's to your liking. I still won't vote though, because I feel that I haven't given alduskkel a fair enough read yet. He might be more worthy of a vote if I actually read him in depth.

But maybe I should just get replaced instead.

[pablito]

Who you think it's me or hohum who's likely to be Town? Why do you think it's unlikely that we're both pro-Town? Why are you being so vague about this?

hohum, clearly for pro-town. I said I still need to read you. I haven't really had many scummy vibes on hohum at all this game, really. The only one is the retrospective view on him now that khamisa turned up scum.

Not scum-hunt toward me and I'll ask to be replaced. plenty of people have done that including Kise yesterday. I'm asking you guys to stop F-ing yell at me for not posting. I'll post at my own schedule, unless the deadline is imminent. Otherwise just stupidly wait and I'll get to it. I still don't like that you don't care that I simply didn't want to post. Yea, it screws you over, but this is PARTICULARLY why I was against the whole khamisa wagon. IF someone's gone, if you yell at them, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO WANT TO POST ANYMORE. Again, this was more a gripe about the process, not the scum-content level.

[pablito]

pablito:
What is your opinion of Alduskkel's behavior? I know you put him on your scum list a couple posts ago, but you didn't seem particularly satisfied with that. Can you share your opinions of his play?

I don't know, I'd have to read him. I really haven't looked at him in depth. Tomorrow I plan on trying.

[pablito]

I failed at remembering to look over posts today. I got caught up in reading a book instead.

I'll try tonight, if it's worth anything.

[pablito]

Alright, I'm gonna try to post later tonight. No distractions. If you want me to look over specific people - please let me know now. I will look over ald specifically even with his claim.

I suppose I'll also skim some of AT and hohum while I'm at it.

I'll throw out this situation right now just for thought...let's say khamisa and AT are both scum - won't that make a LOT of assumptions made on khamisa's wagon (especially the before-deadline votes) all null?

[pablito]

No I'm not CCing either.

[pablito]

Looking at Alduskkel since it was asked:

his entry into the game was quite length. I cba to read it all the way. But I do like the effor that went into it.

I feel that Cephrir does those things quite often; sometimes he's town, sometimes he's scum.

You feel it? What on Earth is that supposed to mean? It sounds like your gut is telling you this, not any sort of meta read on Cephrir. If it is a meta read, then please provide links where he has done similar things as Town.

That's pretty pointed and direct if it's scum against scum.

Well no, I thought that you thought that Zer0 might be a power role and were trying to get to him to claim ASAP.

Interesting to note.

Followed quickly by:

Sure, but I ain't no power role, I'm a simple wittwe townie.

??? Why did you claim ???

I guess this means that alduskkel is consistent in why he didn't claim until L-2. I wonder what this means for ald's argument on AT.

Ald was pretty harsh on various people in D1 - notably hohum and AT.

then in D2 there's lots of arguments between AT and Ald and they're just too long and tedious.

I really don't see anything bad by ald. In fact, all the arguing between AT and ald makes me think about AT.

And at this point, I'll be honest. I'm tired from reading through these posts. I see nothing on this skim, I don't feel like reading more in depth, because when I do so - I'm looking more at who was attacking Ald, rather than Ald himself. And if I want to do a search on AT or hohum, I might as well look at them instead.

But I really don't get what AT was doing with Ald throughout the entire game. Just a strong defensiveness, and when reading Ald's posts in isolation, I don't see the flaws that AT seemed to have been pointing out.

At the end of this read, my favourite two suspects are AT and chinaman. However, I know my case on chinaman, whereas I'd have to read more on AT to make a case. And the fact that AT posts walls of texts means that I'll never build a case on AT based on his posts alone - but more on his choice of actions in relation to others (specifically Ald and khamisa I suppose). I still can't get over how quickly he was willing to push my case on ODDin yesterday when even I wasn't on board with it. I still feel more comfortable with my own case on chinaman, but I'd say that AT has struck me with an interesting chord throughout the entire game, and it's more amplified knowing Ald's role.

[pablito]

I read your posts, and sir, they suck.

[pablito]

I still haven't voted yet, for your informashun.

[pablito]

Oh my god. I'm so lame. I totally didn't even correlate the deadline with the recent date. Here I am thinking that it's still like 15th of september. My apologies for not knowing what the day is, despite the timestamps. I will start contributing daily post-haste. I wanna take a look at kise, but my vote will go here for now

vote: chinaman

[pablito]

Which one are you planning on looking at first...AT or Kise?

Are you kidding me? I'm not even going to bother to ever post my case on AT. I'm going off of gut with him and that's based on those who wagon jumped on and off of him and what he's done to push. I refuse to ever look at the walls of text that AT posts, and whenever someone even bothers glance his way, he'll post more walls of text - ALL to the point where it debilitates discussion for the group. That's why it's not worthwhile, if AT is scum, he's the one I'd save for last. Because even if he might be misleading, he has to keep talking to keep up a scum charade. But my thoughts on AT would mostly depend on chinaman turning up scum really. AT even doubting ald for one second mainly exacerbated my thoughts on AT. Before that sequence, AT would've remained in mid-radar for me. Therefore, I find it not convenient to look at AT right now.

Kise, then.

I've had mixed opinions on Kise. I really didn't like him from the beginning for some reason and I'll look back at posts to figure out why. But the biggest move that Kise has made in the game was unvote khamisa to vote me. There was something symbolic in that action that has defined Kise since then.

I really don't like chinaman trying to defame my character before I even tried to put a case against him. It's not helping the town in any case.

As for hohum and the replacement. I'd much rather chinaman goes first, but I can't object to hohum being lynched. I don't think we'll necessarily find much information on anyone based on whether dcorbe turns town or scum, but for interest of deadline, it's not a horrible lynch.

Back to Kise.

In D2 -

@pablito - I don't expect to die soon or anything. But I've considered that it could have happened during N1 so I waited until D2 to determine whether it was worth reading the entire thread.. and I still am pretty unmotivated to go back and read page-for-page. I'm doing selective reading at the moment. (the Cephir case)

I find this statement curious. Kise uses the excuse of "dying N1" as a reason to not really reading the entire thread. It just seems so egocentric during a time when there was no reason for Kise to even be so egocentric. It's not that there was much focus for better or worse on Kise, and to me - at least retrospectively - it feels like it could be an excuse that Kise may have thought he was a lynch possibility and therefore didn't feel the need to fight. However, at this point, I wouldn't really feel like that's the reason. But when I replaced into this game, I didn't worry about the upcoming night. I read the game and harped in as soon as I could. It didn't matter if I thought I might not last long in the game - it was just something I could take as a given.

During D2 - Kise admits that he may be tunneling on Khamisa. This is justified and the progression makes sense. Considering that Kise enters the game and foses khamisa this could possibly mean brownie points.

As for kham's meta.. well, I know how she acts as scum because we were mafia lovers once (pwned the town, BTW). I did click her links and it doesn't seem like she posts any more or less, so I agree with hohum that if you're voting for her based on a lurking-argument, it's not too strong at all of a reason (however, I still don't believe anyone IS voting her for that reason). Judging by how she is as town, it looks like she questions people a lot more than she did in lover's mafia. Her limited access could be why she's not that aggressive with the question-asking.. but I don't like to speak up for someone; especially when I'm voting them. I've seen a few questions ITT, but mostly opinions from her. Hard to say whether she plays like this all the time.

A post like that brings a lot of townie points as well. I'm not so sure that Kise would've said this all as scum. At the same time though, it could just be a clever scum partner post to defend someone without really defending at all. But it looks too biting to be partnr scum.

during the whole vote khamisa, to pablito to khamisa again sequence, I saw it as being very propogandish. There was a message being spread - and it was to incite something rather than a lynch necessarily. That caught me off guard because Kise was mostly doing something to send a message against me - and it could've been building up for something in the future.

However with the vote on D2 and with how Kise has acted today, Kise doesn't really seem on my radar at the moment.

[pablito]

AT, actually I never read your posts. I've only skimmed them. If I ever said I read them, I meant I "read" them. Does it look like I've ever paid attention to your walls of text? No. I've never once referenced them. I haven't referenced any of your justifications for anything. Therefore my inconsistency is my tone in what words I use. And I will misuse the word "read" because you make me illiterate.

I go after AT because he's so stupidly defensive that he annoys me so much. And with time being issue, he's very good at annoying people to the point where they get off his case. The biggest reasons I suspect AT: how he handled my case on ODD and forced me to look at ODD and then he tried to get people to look at it, the deadline thing on D1, the way he handled Ald on D3 and the fact that he was JKed N1. Yeah, that's a huge assumption I'm taking on the JKing - but I think it's something to just keep in the back of my head - because yeah, it could've been a doc-protect. But that's something that should not be the focus for today.

chinaman did the stupid vote flip-flopping thing. So if AT and Khamisa were top vote-getters on D2 and chinaman replaces in - his vote switching makes total sense if the scum were all AT-Khamisa-chinaman. This is why it would hinge on chinaman. I still can't get over chinaman trying to set some "trap" on D2. It just seems like it was a huge distraction technique and he was trying to open a new possibility on someone all the meanwhile looking like he was on a wagon when all the time chinaman really wanted hohum/dcorbe lynched. If hohum/dcorbe flips scum, I think my case on chinaman weakens.

Chinaman yesterday was voting hohum but pushing other cases. I felt like he was trying to protect khamisa by voting AT (to see if there was a quick lynch) or something - but I do see the khamisa-chinaman link. Now if I were to look all the way back to the relationship back in D1 to zero...I don't know. I will admit I'm not sure - my main case is on chinaman's actions only.

Anyway, doesn't everyone remember being so tough on zero on D1? It kind of astounds me how everyone is still willing to not remember zero.

[pablito]

Wow. I'm gonna have to read my case again. For some reason when d3x talks about it, it really has lots of holes in it.

I'm more just plain confused now.

You don't like Hohum either for scum tells.

I never said that. ever. I'm certain.

Anyway, I blame chinaman yelling at me for me having tunneling. I'll have to rethink this.

unvote

[pablito]

As we all know, I don't read AT's posts. His style is not conducive to reading. As I said, he makes me illiterate.

It's not the point you make, it's how you convey it.

[pablito]

LOL @ chinaman voting me. "townies need to read every single post".

Oh how funny on so many levels. I'm like the worst offender of that? Oh really? I can see now why I tunnelled on chinaman so much. He just irks me.

I can say that it should be suspect that a pro-town player has not read the majority of posts by someone who he suspects! But this is also why I was saying I wouldn't go after AT right now. It is not the imminent danger - and it's not something worthwhile to do right now. Had I voted AT and still made the same argument - I could not blame any votes on me.

@AT - With Kise, I really really suspected him D2. But Khamisa flipping scum brings so much doubt in my mind for Kise. I'd have to really see more on him later.

Also someone mentioned this earlier in the day - but why did I bother look at chinaman through "chinaman is scum" viewpoint in that read? Because no one else bothered to try to do it. And honestly, I have to wonder how great a read I did at this point. Because I can't even stand behind that case at the moment. And this probably means I tunneled so hard on chinaman that I refused to believe anything else. It still gets me why he pulled that trap on D2. I cannot get beyond that. It's something I'll work on in D3 should I survive.

@DRK - I cba. Plus it's a waste of time at this juncture before the deadline. But it's more of I cba. If I ever do build a case on AT, it's gotta be when we have time and he has a chance to speak. What we need to focus on is whether we want dcorbe lynched or not.

And at this moment, it looks likely. I personally never got many scummy vibes from hohum - but I do in retrospect. Based on khamisa flipping scum and based on hohum asking for replacement. But in the moment, I have not felt like hohum was scum at any point in the game. Based on that, I would not vote dcorbe. But I'm not opposed to it happening.

[pablito]

I want to give chinaman a chance, but his language tells me otherwise. Really getting so effing cocky that you say that you want to get to know the new guy's name???

Thanks man. You again. I remember again why I wanted out of this game to get replaced.

Anyway, dcorbe said he was following this game but nary a post even in deadline terms. It says something.

But what's more intriguing are the posts on me now. I'm polarising everyone, and I think it can give us some information at least. I like that. I can read people better when they mention me.

[pablito]

@chinaman - I no longer find mafia fun. Especially on this website. I thought it would be great to get back in a game, but this game is just so tedious and games these days are much too long for my taste. We can continue this discussion tomorrow if I'm around - it's a bit too much of a distraction this close to deadline. That's why I've brought up that statement again.

But the reason that statement about "getting to know the new guy" got to me, is because you're making it seem like yo'ure the swing vote that will miraculously save dcorbe. And should dcorbe manage to not get lynched today - you've made it known that you were voting to SAVE him as well as to lynch me. Actually that's something you tend to do. You're making displays (or at least your language conveys so) that are a bit flashy. Your statement implies that dcorbe may get by simply because of my actions this late in the day.

This is why I keep tunneling on you wanting to make points. Or was that Kise that I was thinking of. Anyway, it's more style than substance. But I think it can best be chalked up to your anger and frustration with me. Because that's what I got out of that "joke" you made. And you made it at a point when no vote was clear. Whether you want to call it a joke or not, there are some serious undertones that I'm picking up on it. But that's something more of a personal undertone, and less than something that matters to any case at that point. And I know you're as frustrated with me as I'm frustrated with you - so this means nothing in terms of scumtells.

Yes chinaman, you're chastising me, dont' get around it. You wouldn't bother lecture me on how you want me to play the game if you it weren't chastising. I don't play like that. Call it unconventional, call it aggravation (as AT might say), but I'll do things how I want. Here's my explication:

I won't read posts to look at the faults in the logic. I am not a logic-player. I don't look for the inconsistencies in between posts. Maybe it's because I know that I will be an inconsistent player and that would be hypocritical for my style. I'm not a lawyer type player.

What I will look at is tone of language and intent. Chinaman, you appeal to my senses because your language is not sensitive. AT is boring to read, but he's a bit consistent - I get where he's coming from. With you, chinaman, I get the sense that instead of attacking the very point you're trying to make with that specific person - I get the sense that you're trying to show the town and an audience what you think should be asked of me. It's like even though you're talking to me - you're saying things - like sound bits that would be great if a camera were on you. You know like in reality tv shows when the villain calls someone out and would only do it if the camera were there. I get that sense with you. I do not get a strong sense that you're asking me questions or pointing things out to me for the sake of me answering only. I don't get the sense of intimacy of the questioning. And to me, it can feel a bit scummy. This may be your style - but it keeps bringing me back to you. Yes, this is a mafia game everyone can read and everyone can comment. But the language you use and the way you get at things...I'm not sure. This could still be my anti-chinaman viewpoint getting to me.

Whereas someone like ODDin and AT, I didn't get that feeling. When AT asks me a question it's direct. It's not pandering to an audience. This is also why a lot of his posts bore me, they're directed at someone specifically and the strong majority aren't pointed to me. Hence I had lower investment to read it in depth. (Also this explains why I feel like I'm reading and investing more when people are reacting to me at this point). While I've mentioned ODDin, you can see that that's my style of looking at people.

Nonetheless, at this point, I'm having trouble finding a suspect aside from chinaman, and I really don't think I can justify voting him unless deadline was hitting. I would need to look at chinaman from an objective standpoint, and I'm not gonna achieve that in two days.

@chinaman - do I suspect Kise? I said I'd do a read on kise, but tbh I really haven't gotten much negative on him in D3. Just because I read him, doesn't mean I"m necessarily suspecting him. I'm sorry if it wasn't as clear in my post where I read him. And to reiterate - I never said anything about having scummy vibes on hohum. It appears that you may be misconstruing me as well. Also I haven't read AT's post. I just realised at this moment my typing are getting messed up because I'm quite tired. Therefore I'll give up for the night and stop where I'm at now.

[pablito]

Clarification - I asked for replacement because I'm about to buy a ticket for a vacation two weeks from now. And I won't be available. I will still contribute to the best of my ability until then. Also - I'm gonna try to get in a post on kdub and kise by deadline.

I'm following AT's posts on how Kise was needlessly tunneled on Khamisa - granted Kise was straightforward on it, but it's still...hrm.