Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[Alduskkel]

I'm replacing dejkha.

Unvote

until I finished reading. Fortunately I started the minute I PM'd yawetag to replace in and the game is not that long (in terms of post length) so I'm already up to Page 9 and am writing notes as I go.

Cheers!

[Alduskkel]

Okay, this post is my summary of my opinions of the game and it's really not cohesive. I've tried to tie it together some but it will still come out jumbled I suspect. Anyway, a long RVS and a lot of theory talk happens but not much else does. AndyTony attracts a bit of controversy but that's about it.

I agree with ODDin 91, and hohum never seems to address this.

AndyTony makes what seems like a case against hohum... then unvotes hohum? I don't get it. If it isn't a case against hohum, as he says in 122, then why does he issue a FoS to hohum?

Regardless, I find it hypocritical of hohum to discourage theory talk in favor of game talk and then go off and talk about theory.

Personally I find the hypothetical scenario of Zer0ph34r claiming scum to be a null tell, based on my meta knowledge of him (which is admittedly not that much).

I agree with AndyTony 130.

ODDin 133 misses the point I think -- I don't believe AndyTony was advocating against discussing meta, just against basing future actions w.r.t. Zer0 claiming scum.

I fail to understand this AndyTony 137 phrase:

means a lot that we're at an understanding

From 143:

I might make a case on [AndyTony] later to see if I notice anything particularly anti-town about his play thus far.

Um, you'll make a case to try and find something anti-Town about him? Don't you mean that you'll try to find something anti-Town about him and

then

make a case? Why AndyTony in particular? Shouldn't this be a general rule for everyone (search for scum tells, if anything substantial is found then make a case)?

148:

Nobody's chasing any tell at this point, so why dwell on it? Watch how [Zer0ph34r] plays the game and then react to it. You keep coming back to it...kind of like picking at a scab, trying to make it rupture. I'm starting to wonder if you're not trying to help make it happen...

??? hohum and to a lesser degree dejkha had already stated that if Zer0 claimed scum then they'd be at least somewhat more suspicious of him, even though it's a null tell for him. So it's fairly relevant. Plus, AndyTony can't be trying to make the situation "rupture", as Zer0 had stated that it's ignorance that pisses him off and AndyTony isn't ignorant.

AndyTony 149 is a good response to this.

Post 155:

I stated why I don't post much in the first day, especially at this point.

I don't recall anyone bringing up this point up to now, not even you.

Snipped from 168:

As long as Pitstop doesn't make a half assed post when he does post, it doesn't matter to me. Obviously I'd prefer it if he's fairly active though.

Going days without posting, while being active elsewhere, will raise suspicion.

The bolded part seems like a "hint hint, don't do this, scum buddy" to me. Coaching, as it were.

Snipped from 170:

we need a different approach than just posting our opinions.

Isn't this the essence of Mafia though?

Also from 170:

I'm also looking at [AndyTony] as scum due to Post 166 where you actually considered me lying about being busy and lazy and lurking. Personally, I think that would be an absolutely pathetic scum tactic to attempt, and considering it is even funnier.

He was just noting a possibility. But I agree, such underhanded tactics are rather unfair and ridiculous, though I have heard of some people who do it anyway.

173:

I'm not liking this AndyTony guy. It's like he thinks he's all knowing. Like Allah or Entertainment Weekly. He's very serious and acts like he is the boss. And if you're going to ask me why, it's your posts. Read them and you'll know.

I don't get this feeling at all. At least provide examples, back up your statements and all that.

177:

This post is to remind me to mention something in a few days and/or a lot of pages.

This bugs me -- why say this in-thread? There's a place for writing these things, namely the Notes link at the top of every mafiascum forum page (fuck, I'm typing this in Notes right now). The Corporation makes a good point in 257:

IMO it's just to push a vague 'I know something you don't know, so don't lynch me'. In fact the actual quote states he will be alive in a few days anyway. A tad assumptive.

Then when questioned further, Cephrir says in 259:

It's not. Like I said, it's not really a huge thing like everyone is making it. It's just something that... might modify the behavior of at least one player. Like seriously, it matters so little that I shouldn't have even bothered mentioning it, it wouldn't have mattered much if I forgot. And of course when I am inevitably forced to come out with it today, The Corporation will attack me over it because it's so non-secret-worthy.

If it's not a big deal, why not just tell everyone? Right now, regardless of you saying it's not a big deal, it was/is rapidly becoming a big deal. Cephrir finally blows the secret in 261. I guess I can understand wanting to keep that a secret from people in order to keep an eye on AT without influencing him too much. But then again it still seems kind of weird to me that Cephrir posted 177 at all instead of stashing it away in his Notes. I'll be coming back to this subject later in this post.

I agree with ODDin 184. Cephrir 194 makes a good point, but on the other hand, as The Corporation notes in 218, AndyTony didn't have any votes on him, so he wasn't

that

easy of a lynch target. It's hard to say; the votes weren't there, but to some degree the suspicion was.

From 204:

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

I truly don't feel you agree with ODD, but are simply looking for an excuse to hop on the bandwagon and possibly get me lynched. My vote on AT was said to be an 'easy lynch', but this seems like much more of an easy lynch to me.

What evidence do you have favoring your interpretation, namely bandwagoning on Cephrir's part as opposed to him just agreeing with ODDin? Right now this seems like OMGUS to me.

Cephrir and The Corporation have a bit of a spat starting in the 210s -- personally I side with Cephrir in this as it seemed like The Corporation was forming scum tells around Cephrir already being scum in the first place (a.k.a. tunnel vision) and The Corporation's argument ultimately boils down to "Cephrir bandwagoned on Pitstop" when I think Cephrir had decent reasoning for his vote.

I think Cephrir successfully defends in 266 against ODDin's 265.

280, Zer0ph34r:

Cephrir- I think the arguments against him are valid, however, I find it odd that he doesn't seem to be defending himself too much, but that doesn't mean I find it scummy. [Many people think when I say "odd" I mean "scummy".]

Eh??? I felt Cephrir was spending oodles of time defending himself, many of his posts are purely dedicated to defending against Corp's attacks.

Then there are a lot of short posts between various people and Zer0ph34r. Not much to say, even if Zer0 is admitting to an anti-Town play style; we're hunting for scum, not anti-Town people, even if they are not mutually exclusive.

Then, 339 Cephrir, after Zer0 inexplicably voted for dejkha:

To be fair, dejkha has been uncharacteristically quiet in this game which may result from a disinterest in being scum. But I don't know if Zero has even played with dej before so that still doesn't make any sense.

Theory: Zero is scum with dej and is angry he quit and/or knows why he's quitting?

Regardless, FoS: Zero

That's a real stretch. Why and how would Zer0 know why dejkha was quitting? Plus, we already know that Zer0 isn't exactly the most well-reasoned of people, so his vote sort of fit given what we know of him. Frankly it just seems like a push of an easy wagon, Zer0's. Then, in the post right after AndyTony quickly backs up Cephrir (but this is later retracted).

So AndyTony and ODDin quickly vote for Zer0 after he starts being somewhat annoying. So this raises the question: Is Zer0 an easy lynch being ganged up on by a ODDin-AndyTony-Cephrir scum team (AndyTony being the least likely to be scum there imo, given his later unvote etc.) or are they just Townies who are pissed at him and have nothing better to go on? Something in between? I can certainly understand being pissed at Zer0ph34r, but I just don't think it's worth the lynch.

I don't know, maybe we shouldn't let Zer0 get away with crap even with his meta.

354, Zer0ph34r:

(The Corporation, AndyTony, ODDin, Cephrir) 4 Down, 3 to go. Join the club!

AndyTony, I am 99% you are scum along with one of the other 3 who have voted for me. You seem to be trying to make yourself look like the good guy, which you have done quite well and finding the PERFECT reason to vote for me, which you almost have.

PS: Voting for me will only hurt the town.

9/1-13/14-15-20/12-25-9-14-7

u no thar r only 3 scum rite

Also, big OMGUS here.

359, still Zer0:

The Replacement? That's his name?

Anyway, you want a defense? I don't defend myself so much anymore due to the fact that most players will most likely say I'm scrambling or using a last attempt to stay in the game no matter what my defense is. But I shall try: Pretty much all of my accusations of scum were based off of previous games where I self claim as scum and most of the time, falsely do so. Aside from that, I don't think I've given any sort of suspicious behavior other then not defending myself. If you think dejkha and everyone who voted for me is scum, then why aren't you voting for one of them and instead me? And as far as me telling you to deal with it, you DO have to deal with it. I welcome votes for me, but I don't encourage it. If you want to vote for me go ahead, but it won't get you any closer to winning, at least in this stage. Time to make quick history...

Unvote
Vote: Zer0ph34r

Dammit. Those aren't the only accusations against you (see AT's comment about hypocrisy etc. in 355) and this is an Appeal to Emotion, basically you're throwing a fit here, perhaps to try and gain sympathy. But I can't figure out if you're an angry Townie or a Mafioso... play styles such as these are always hard to read.

Part of me agrees with ODDin 366 thoroughly, but the other part doesn't want to lynch Townies... but on the other hand I don't know Zer0's alignment, though probabilistically it's more likely that he's pro-Town, but I guess you could say that about anyone.

Cephrir continues to push the Zer0 wagon in 378, but I favor AndyTony's approach to Zer0.

379, Zer0ph34r finally explains the dejkha vote by saying that dejkha prefers to be Town and not Scum, thus the lack of dedication is a scum tell for dejkha. Obviously I know dejkha isn't scum though. My question, however, is this: Zer0, where did you get this meta knowledge? How reliable is it? Cephrir, you seem to have this meta knowledge about dejkha too, so my questions for Zer0 here also go to you.

AndyTony makes a good point about Cephrir role fishing in 391. Cephrir replies in 394 with:

Well I didn't mean I wanted [Zer0ph34r] to claim immediately. As in, I'd like to see him run up to L-1 so that he'll have to claim. Which really isn't any more aggressive than placing a vote on him because it says "I would currently prefer to lynch this player if he's not a power role".

Too bad you didn't actually say that, hmm?

MadCrawdad 397 points out a key flaw in Cephrir's post 177 I think. Cephrir replies in 398, which I will in turn reply to as well:

The thing is, though, if your 'Note to Self' was truly to remind you to mention AT's meta, you didn't have a few game days to do so. And you knew it. So why would you wait? Your information would have been much more urgent (and important) than you're claiming.

If I brought that up too early it would become all-but-worthless. Which it did.

Yeah, but a few whole game days when you thought AT might be lynched on Day 1?

When you posted your 'Note to Self,' you must have already had your feeling that AT was going be railroaded, as nothing much happened in the ten-or-so posts between your note and the revelation that you thought AT was going to be wrongfully lynched on D1:

Yeah, absolutely, but it's not like he was going to get 7 votes without me having a chance to say something.

Who was the one who said that once a bandwagon started it was hard to stop and that they wanted to preemptively defend AT? OH RIGHT, YOU DID IN POST 220! Relevant snips:

One person can't necessarily stop a bandwagon once it gets rolling

D1 bandwagons have a tendency to go through no matter what because people don't care enough, so it's best that it was pointed out now rather than when it might be too late.

Cephrir then basically gives up the point in 400, and when the accusee can't come up with a good defense other than "I forget" (actual Cephrir quote) it's a sign of a good accusation, I think.

Cephrir 406:

I stress again - -

-I think a stronger point was the notion of Ceph asking for a role claim from Zero when things built up -


What are thoughts on that?

I don't get how this is scummy. Honestly I'd still like to see him run up to a claim.

Trying to find/out power roles and kill them... isn't that generally a fairly big Mafia goal?

-[Zer0] has outright refused to scumhunt in any non-blatant-OMGUS fashion; therefore he will never be of any use if town, and will never help us find his scumbuddies if he is scum. In fact I wonder if he even reads the thread sometimes. What suspicions he has come up with have been horrifically illogical.

Zer0 is, at the very least, one more player keeping us away from lylo. We can't just ditch part of our numbers advantage like this.

-He will probably, at some point in this game, be lynched, and is dangerous to have around in an endgame scenario; so D1 is the best time to get rid of him while we have less concrete information to go by than we will in later days.

So... we should lynch him because he is going to be lynched? That's circular logic if I've ever seen it.

-Selfvoters deserve to die.

Not really...

Would you really have gone back all those pages to reread your note anyway?

Yes.

If you remembered the note in the first place, what's the point of going back to look at it if you're already reminded of the note, and thus reminded of what the note was reminding you to do? If that makes sense.

If you really wanted to remind yourself, then make an note outside of the game.

Wouldn't work.

Why not?

Answer the question Cephrir...

Pssst. You're a lurker.

I admit I haven't been into this game as much as I should have up to this point, but that doesn't mean I can't suspect others.

But it does mean that you're a hypocrite.

ODDin catches Cephrir in an inconsistency [423] and all Cephrir does is make an Appeal to Emotion and basically says, "Yeah, okay, lynch me, but I'm pro-Town and the following are the scum: dejkha, The Corporation, and Zero/random lurker."[424]

Well lesse here. dej is usually an active player but flaked for no apparent reason, probably dislikes being scum. I've pointed out the connection between him and Zero.

What's to say that dejkha didn't just overload on games/found this game boring and not worth playing? Furthermore, the connection between dejkha and Zer0 is that Zer0 supposedly bussed dejkha, which swings both ways: by accusing dejkha of being scum with Zer0, isn't that also a convenient bus for

you

?

But that all assumes dejkha is scum, but he isn't, since I know his alignment and all that. I'm just pointing out the flaw in the logic.

I suppose "dejkha, Zero, and The Corporation or some random lurker" is more accurate since the latter has the least basis. Yes, that's pure OMGUS but I'm allowed to do that since I'm going to die anyway.

What gives you the right to OMGUS even if you're going to die? OMGUS suspicions aren't sound scum tells at all, thus suspecting The Corporation is illogical, particularly because you originally thought he was newb Town.

438 (Kdub) and 439 (The Replacement) are good points against Khamisa, in terms of her active lurking and not doing anything to help discussion.

Just because no one's held their breath longer than the world record doesn't mean no one's going to try. Humans try to change things, and I'm hoping to make [the game] more exciting.

Uh, yeah, keep up the good work!

444: Cephrir admits to being inconsistent.

So yeah,

Vote: Cephrir

. And God, I'm like Mastin now, aren't I? But I guess after 19 pages of low-medium post length it was time for one long post, yes?

@AndyTony: Is that all you have to say right now?

[Alduskkel]

Since it looks like Cephrir is going to be today's lynch, I am willing to switch my vote to him.

The way you say this, it sounds like you just want a lynch period, not because you think he's scummy.

I could try to respond and defend myself and then get lynched, or I could just not put in any effort and still get lynched.

What makes you so sure that you can't avoid being lynched today?

Since Corporation is being replaced, I guess we won't hear an explanation for the inconsistency I pointed out in 418. What does everyone else make of that? If Cephrir ends up being town, I'm thinking Corp/his replacement would be a good person to investigate further.

It's a rather odd inconsistency. How does it make Corp more likely to be scum though?

I agree with AT 471 w.r.t. MC 470.

[Alduskkel]

I

do

think he's scummy (I am FoSing him), which is one of the reasons I am willing to switch.

The others being...?

[Alduskkel]

Khamisa: His note to self is post 177. Do you believe his explanation for the note?

I wasn't able to find a cut-and-dry explanation for it, but he most likely would have done it because he found something in a player's post that, if they did something that didn't agree with it, he could go back and reference it. I think that's very plausible.

Why do you think he didn't just put it in his Notes (at the top right of the page, next to Usergroups)?

Khamisa, what don't you understand about the Cephrir wagon?

You've asked this again like you think I didn't answer it. See my post above. It appears I understand it now.

And do you agree or disagree with the case? Somewhere in between?

[Alduskkel]

Why do you think he didn't just put it in his Notes (at the top right of the page, next to Usergroups)?

Because I don't read them. The only times I've ever used that was when I wanted to write a post at Night.

Maybe if you just got into the habit of reading them... *shrug*

I'm going to be redundant here and say that Khamisa still doesn't grasp the full extent of the case on Cephrir, given that she thinks that it revolves completely around the note.

Given that I know that's 50% wrong but I still think [Khamisa]'s scummy, anyone up for lynching her first rather than lynching me and

then not lynching her when I flip town?

I don't understand the bolded part. It isn't like the case on Khamisa (active lurking) is really related to you, thus your fates aren't really intertwined.

The note he left in the open wasn't to remind himself of something someone said - - it was him being obscure about a read on another player (do you think that's something you dangle in front of other players out of the RVS?)

Well that's how I interpreted it. A more scum related one would be someone saying "scum until proven town" then later saying "town until proven scum"

I'm not really sure what you mean here. How's the second sentence related? What's your point?

Khamisa, you should also notice that the case on Ceph isn't based entirely on his note to self. There are inconsistencies and self-contradictions in his posts, he's been accused of role-fishing, of appealing to emotion... do you disagree with all of these and claim they're based on poor logic?

I feel that Cephrir does those things quite often; sometimes he's town, sometimes he's scum.

You

feel

it? What on Earth is that supposed to mean? It sounds like your gut is telling you this, not any sort of meta read on Cephrir. If it is a meta read, then please provide links where he has done similar things as Town.

[Alduskkel]

Rolefishing is a stretch and you know it.

...reasons?

@ODDin: Bringing up your own meta is scummy. And it's scummy because townies don't feel the need to do it.

Why don't Townies feel the need to do it?

I've been accused of appealing to emotion a lot though.

When, where, and as what alignment?

[Alduskkel]

Cephrir, why would you want me to claim scum? So you have an easy reason to vote for me? I'm town. I've stated this before. (I think, anyway.)

I didn't. Everyone thinks I'm scum because they think that's what I was going for.

Well no, I thought that you thought that Zer0 might be a power role and were trying to get to him to claim ASAP.

[Alduskkel]

Sure, but I ain't no power role, I'm a simple wittwe townie.

??? Why did you claim ???

@Khamisa: Why do you think Zer0ph34r sounded mad when voting for dejkha? And you also say that Zer0ph34r's reason for voting for dejkha (more likely to replace out when scum) is a meta reason, the same basic type of reason that you are using to get a Town read on Cephrir. So what's with the inconsistency?

[Alduskkel]

Have we callled him out on proving his supicion on Dej with meta?

No, I don't think so.

[Alduskkel]

@Khamisa: Why do you think Zer0ph34r sounded mad when voting for dejkha? And you also say that Zer0ph34r's reason for voting for dejkha (more likely to replace out when scum) is a meta reason, the same basic type of reason that you are using to get a Town read on Cephrir. So what's with the inconsistency?

He didn't sound mad, he sounded frustrated that his scum partner was leaving. Also, I backed up my meta argument, what he has said is simply a statement.

Why do you think he sounded frustrated?

[Alduskkel]

Posting to avoid prod.

ODDin: As much as I'd like to see this game move forward, hohum is right. We should wait for replacements first. I can see where you're coming from, but a lynch right now is likely not in our best interest.

[Alduskkel]

Wait wait wait. Zer0, you already claimed Town in 533. Why'd you feel the need to claim

Vanilla

Town in 544? Also, you still haven't backed up your meta read of dejkha/me.

[Alduskkel]

First of all ODDin, don't put things in quotes if I didn't say them.

When did this happen?

Because I said I was scum?

When did this happen too?

what does it matter if you people [yes, white/black people] don't even care if I claim.

What on Earth are you trying to say here?

And what post was this dejkha meta thingy?

379.

TheReplacement, thank you. My claim doesn't help the scum only. It helps you, because now you know I am scum. Or at least your choice to believe me. [Which would be smart.]

How does The Replacement now know that you are scum?

[Alduskkel]

And as for post #379, you didn't ask a question there, that wasn't even a post by you, it was by me!

That's the point. That's the post where you talk about your meta read on dejkha. My question is: how did you get this meta read?

[Alduskkel]

eeeeeeeeeeehhh...until I read somethin.

vote: cephrir

just because it's the highest wagon.

You do realize this is bandwagoning in its boldest form?

@Zer0ph34r: Okay, you said that:

REASON: I know dejkha wanted out of the game and since he likes being town more. Therefore, I'm assuming he was scum.

#1: How do you know dejkha wanted out of the game?
#2: How do you know dejkha liked being Town more?

[Alduskkel]

Unvote

until we have all the necessary replacements.

[Alduskkel]

hohum, aren't you going to unvote since your vote on Cephrir is based on the fact that you screwed up the tags when quoting pablito's vote on Cephrir?

[Alduskkel]

Also, hohum didn't quote pablito, since pablito never said that. So unless hohum himself changes it, I'm counting it as a real vote.

So hohum, does that mean that you're voting for Cephrir because it's a "popular thing to do"?

[Alduskkel]

ODDin 620.

[Alduskkel]

Haven't I explained this before? Let's try it again.

Let's say Zer0, dejkha, and an unknown third are scum partners.

dejkha all of a sudden crops up and says "REPLACE ME".

Zer0 wonders "Why? We aren't fielding much suspicion? Zer0 is

frustrated

that one of his partners quit on him, so he votes him in frustration (and also being a bus). However, his little reasoning gets everybody's attention.

And what makes all this more likely than Zer0 having a meta read on dejkha and then voting based on that meta read?

[Alduskkel]

hohum: In the post you vote for Cephrir you heavily imply that you don't know what the case against him is, and are only voting for him because "it seems like a popular thing to do." So, my question is, why are you falling for Appeal to Majority?

AndyTony: I agree with the cases against both Cephrir and Khamisa, but I think Cephrir is far scummier.

[Alduskkel]

It is simply a player suggesting that since the majority believes it, it must be true.

I suggested no such thing.

The gist of the article applies.

she's in no immediate danger of being lynched right now

You put him at L-1. He's at L-2 now given my unvote.

(the scum would have hammered a long time ago)

What makes you say that?

I figured I would throw my vote around for a little while to provoke reactions out of people.

And have these reactions provided any useful information for you?

BTW arguing semantics or resorting to meta to support your own positions (especially the wiki, as some articles are a bit misleading) is in exceedingly poor taste.

Why? It's in the wiki for a reason, you know. Don't you think you should at least know what the case against someone is before putting them at L-1?

[Alduskkel]

He was in no danger of being lynched.

That's not what "L-1" means.

Your reaction is certainly telling, and I've made a note of it accordingly.

If you're thinking a scum pair between me and Cephrir, let me point out that I unvoted because we didn't (and still don't) have all our replacements here.

The wiki is intended to be a guide for newbies, not Mafia doctrine. The vast majority of the articles on the wiki are user-maintained, some are out dated and some are just plain wrong.

[citation needed]

Plus, you haven't actually explained how it was okay for you to put Cephrir at L-1 when we don't have all our replacements AND you don't even know the case against him.

[Alduskkel]

There was literally 0 activity in the thread when I voted. It would have been fucking stupid and obvious if scum would have suddenly reappeared at that moment to drop the hammer. If that would have been the case then I certainly wouldn't have had a problem losing Cephrir in order to out scum.

I don't think it would have been as obvious as you think. Scum aren't going to just come in here and say "I agree with the case on Cephrir." and hammer him, they're going to post an elaborate post ending with a hammer so that it doesn't look as bad. And let's not forget the WIFOM they could play. ("Well, if it was so scummy then scum wouldn't do it!")

If you're thinking a scum pair between me and Cephrir, let me point out that I unvoted because we didn't (and still don't) have all our replacements here.

Why do you assume that when I take notations of anything that it's bad?

Just the tone of the sentence. But it's hard to judge tone when we aren't actually talking.

I still don't get how you can justify voting for Cephrir when you don't even know the case against him. For all you know it's bullshit.

[Alduskkel]

I suppose you are correct but:

I still don't get how you can justify voting for Cephrir when you don't even know the case against him. For all you know it's bullshit.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: Cephrir

since it doesn't put him at L-1 anymore.

hohum: You haven't listed any reasons why I'm scummy, so your vote on me is frankly ridiculous.

Also, I was posting at about 1 AM so I'm sorry if I had trouble wrapping my head around your vote.

Go read the Game Theory and Theory articles.

I love how the Theory link has a link to the subcategory "Logical Fallacies" which links to "Appeal to Majority".

I didn't post an explanation because nobody asked.

But it was clear that your vote with the broken quote tag at the bottom was confusing ODDin and me, so I'm not sure why you didn't clear that up.

Also, why did you state that you were putting Cephrir at L-2 when you were putting him at L-1?

Let me clarify something: The whole point of voting the way I do is for pressure and to extract information out of people. Explanation usually renders that pressure moot.

Which is exactly why you explained it to me when I merely asked about it.

It's also in poor taste to sit there and call someone out on things before the person they're interacting with has had a chance to respond.

Who are you talking to here, ODDin or me?

[Alduskkel]

this game is made of fail

Then replace out. *gets shot by Crazy*

[Alduskkel]

Get replacements who are very talkative would be my suggestion.

[Alduskkel]

Pretty much what AndyTony said.

[Alduskkel]

What benefit do you see in the day going

three weeks

more?

Also, happy scumday!

[Alduskkel]

^Well, it is relevant for how Zer0 got his meta information on dejkha.

[Alduskkel]

hohum, you still haven't justified your vote for me.

[Alduskkel]

You haven't given any reasons why I'm scummy; you're voting for me because you don't like my play, which I've already explained, not to mention the fact that your current reason doesn't fall under the definition of "justified."

[Alduskkel]

So are you trying to get me policy lynched?

[Alduskkel]

Well, if you're not trying to get me policy lynched, and you're not trying to get me lynched because you think I'm scummy, then what on earth are you trying to do by voting for me?

[Alduskkel]

Why don't you answer my question?

[Alduskkel]

Why are you being so defensive?

I'm not being defensive, I'm questioning your vote on me, which I think is ridiculous.

Also, I won't take "just because" as an answer. Either you want me lynched or you don't. If you don't, then unvote. If you do, explain yourself.

[Alduskkel]

Your question dodging is noted.

[Alduskkel]

I'm not pushing a case on you. In your own words:

Why do you assume that when I take notations of anything that it's bad?

[Alduskkel]

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with what you're doing but your timing is very suspect to me. You've had plenty of opportunities now to bitch about the vote, but you waited until I tried to do some scum hunting.

Painting me in a bad light isn't going to save your scum buddy.

1. I'm not painting you in a bad light.

2. As lame as an excuse as it might seem, I only just realized that you hadn't explained your vote on me.

like a little child.

Are you having difficulties with that hohum? Are there other games you would be more interested in playing? Twister is all kinds of fun.

Since you can't answer valid questions from other people while you are waiting for an answer from another player - - are you trying to say you are only capable of doing one thing at a time in this game? You can't multi task like the rest of us or hold more than one conversation? Perhaps Twister is a poor choice. Maybe a game with less responsibility will do...

So you're camping a vote and are further ignorant.

lol you're entertaining (not a compliment)

You're ignorant

Do look up the details on "OMGUS" hohum, I was going to suggest "Scrabble" to you in lue of "Twister" but now it seems your just as irresponsible with letters and words.

Now answer my question, dickweed.

Yes, taking this game another notch down in the Civility ladder is just the thing this game needs!

Your own scum partner backed off of his position, yet you're running with it.

Let me state this CLEARLY:

I have never, ever, accused hohum of being scum in this game. Do an isolation read of my posts. Give me one instance. I DID note some scummy things from him in my first post, but I did not (and still do not) call him scum. Stop saying that I called you scum, hohum.

Calling Alduskkel and AndyTony now.

I'm afraid not.

[Alduskkel]

hohum, how did your vote for me assist you in scum hunting?

Also, it would be bad if it rained strippers.

[Alduskkel]

Hohum & Alduskel, it's like watching me argue with myself.

How is it anything like that?

[Alduskkel]

1. How is the arguing circular?
2. How is the argument between AT/hohum/me nonsense?
3. How have I been pointing fingers at AT and/or hohum?

[Alduskkel]

That's L-1 for Cephrir I think. (AT, MadCrawdad, ODDin, pablito, myself, lobstermania)

So, claim time I presume.

[Alduskkel]

I don't see how you guys can say I was being over defensive. hohum voted for me, I defended. That's not over defensiveness, that's a natural reaction to being voted for.

[Alduskkel]

I don't see how you guys can say I was being over defensive. hohum voted for me, I defended. That's not over defensiveness, that's a natural reaction to being voted for.

You defended against what? It was a single vote on you. Given the fact that no real reason was given by hohum, nobody else was likely to even follow, right? Why even worry about it?

I didn't think hohum's vote against me was legitimate, so I said so. I wasn't worried about it, I was just criticizing it. If I don't think a vote is warranted, I'll say so, which is exactly what happened here. Just because the vote happened to be on me doesn't mean that I'm being over defensive.

In conclusion, it's not that I was worried about people agreeing with hohum and lynching me, it was that I didn't agree with the reason for hohum's vote, so I spoke up.

[Alduskkel]

I don't see how you guys can say I was being over defensive. hohum voted for me, I defended. That's not over defensiveness, that's a natural reaction to being voted for.

You defended against what? It was a single vote on you. Given the fact that no real reason was given by hohum, nobody else was likely to even follow, right? Why even worry about it?

I didn't think hohum's vote against me was legitimate, so I said so. I wasn't worried about it, I was just criticizing it. If I don't think a vote is warranted, I'll say so, which is exactly what happened here. Just because the vote happened to be on me doesn't mean that I'm being over defensive.

In conclusion, it's not that I was worried about people agreeing with hohum and lynching me, it was that I didn't agree with the reason for hohum's vote, so I spoke up.

Dude you need to shut the hell up because you had yourself back to null-tell in my notes. Now you're just digging a hole for yourself again.

Why are you telling me how to avoid looking scummy to you?

[Alduskkel]

Yeah, why?

[Alduskkel]

Nah, I get it.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: Khamisa

. My secondary suspect, as I've said before in post 662.

[Alduskkel]

hohum: You accused AndyTony of having a desire to be out of the spotlight, but if anything I'd say AT is an attention magnet. Are you saying that he's bad at staying out of the spotlight, or that he's been doing something subtle to stay out of it that you picked on? Something else?

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP: picked on-->picked up on

[Alduskkel]

No no, it's for active lurking.

[Alduskkel]

There's been a lot of lurking and inactivity, yes, but the difference is that Khamisa is

actively

lurking. She could participate more, and even went to the bother to check several of Cephrir's previous games, but she chooses not to.

[Alduskkel]

I like MC's AndyTony case.

This. Also AT's reaction seems like OMGUS.

hohum: Please respond to 843.

Unvote, Vote: AndyTony. FoS: Khamisa.

[Alduskkel]

@Alduskkel
- Can you explain what evidence you see suggesting I am scummy?
- MCD described his query as a "hmm". Not a case and no vote. Are you trying to seem like you're following a wagon when in reality you are attempting to start it?

1. I am more confident about MCD's case than MCD himself. Also, hohum has a point about you trying to shorten the deadline, and your OMGUS towards him and MCD is scummy.
2. In other words, "Are you scum Alduskkel?" The answer is no.

[Alduskkel]

Since when is agreeing with people and changing your mind a scum tell?

[Alduskkel]

hohum: Please respond to 843.

[Alduskkel]

How am I being hypocritical? I changed my mind about you overnight and after MCD's posts. Also, I'm not blindly following. I assess the cases, consider them, then vote accordingly.

[Alduskkel]

What's the case and what are my crimes?

-OMGUS (you seem to suspect anyone who comes even remotely close to attacking you)
-What MCD said about you constantly reminding us that your case on Cephrir is the best case.
-Trying to shorten the deadline.

What evidence is there?

Your posts.

Can you explain your comment about the deadline after my own comment, and how you only today regard it scummy?

Well, at first I thought, "I can't imagine this day going on another three weeks. I totally understand AndyTony's position." but then I thought (overnight), "But then again, who benefits more from cutting off discussion? Scum."

Changed your mind on me over night?

When you and your buddies talked about me?

It's called "reviewing the thread." Also, stop tunneling ("you changed your mind overnight, thus it must have been because you talked with your scum buddies").

If it was over night, AND MCD's comments - please - what were your over night thoughts (if you truly aren't a follower)

Answered above. Just saying this so you don't accuse me of ignoring the question.

Did you actually have your own thoughts?

Were they magically and coincidentally the SAME as MCD's?? :O

What do you mean here? If you're asking, "Do you agree with MCD?" then yes, I do, except for the part about it only being a "hmm."

If so - what took you so long to pipe up?

-I didn't think about it on Day 1.
-I couldn't post on Night 1.
Therefore, I waited until Day 2.

[Alduskkel]

I had to replace Kise in the game I'm modding so I don't think he's around. (*hopes this doesn't violate any rules*)

[Alduskkel]

AndyTony: Your definition of OMGUS is very different from mine and your strict definition of "you have to be voting" is limiting. Regardless of what the wiki says, I think of it as "suspecting someone for suspecting you." Whenever someone suspects you, you immediately suspect them. Sure, you don't list OMGUS as one of your reasons for suspecting that person, but then again who would?

Saying my case on Ceph was strong is a reason you're voting me?
are you aware you were on that wagon?
are you aware that when I outined it in that massive post, you responded with "What AT said"?

No, yes, and yes.

Trying to shorten the deadline?
You didn't want three weeks either!

It was more that I wanted to know what hohum wanted to do for 3 weeks. Also, as I've said before, I changed my mind on this so of course what I said then is different than from what I'm saying now.

I thought Alduskkel was very thorough, commenting on every little bit of information and asking lots of probing questions, yet now he votes AT with little explanation other than that he agrees with MC. It just seems inconsistent with his D1 play.

Look, I wasn't going to be repetitive and quote MCD's stuff all over again. That would be tedious and unnecessary. A simple "I agree with MCD" sufficed for saying what my position was.

Also, you're latching onto other people's cases almost all the time - ceph, khamisa, AT.

So? If I see what I think is a good case I go with it. In fact cases that I concoct myself rarely turn out well.

Khamisa: Read the thread before you post. Not only do you seem to have forgotten that we have a Doctor, you also have no idea who's even attacking AT, when a simple look at the vote count would tell you.

[Alduskkel]

I can agree with KDub that Khamisa forgot about the doctor.

Actually I said that.

[Alduskkel]

How on Earth am I lurking? I posted

yesterday

. How am I being hypocritical?

Also, I answered your "buddying" accusation in 897:

If I see what I think is a good case I go with it.

Would you rather I

don't

go with what I think is a good case?

And I'm sure it's just a coincidence (and totally not OMGUS) that all of your suspects are people who are pressuring you.

[Alduskkel]

I'll repeat:

Would you rather I

don't

go with what I think is a good case?

[Alduskkel]

I'm saying that in order for you to support MCD's case? You had to be a hypocrite, switch your convictions, and buddy to the leader.

I've already said that I just changed my mind.

I'm asking you why you had to do that? Is a lynch that much more important than finding scum?

Because I agreed with MCD, and no to the second.

And can you elaborate on what you "liked" about anything MCD said?

I agreed with it. How much more specific do you want me to be?

[Alduskkel]

And you still haven't answered why you accused me of lurking.

[Alduskkel]

What did you agree with?
Still?
Why?
Why did you have to "change your mind" on topics in ORDER to believe them? (that's hypocritical, that's my point)

Everything, yes, because I thought MCD was making good points, and I don't understand the last one. Of course I had to change my mind if I originally had a different opinion.

It's like you have less to say when MCD isn't saying it for you.

How so?

[Alduskkel]

List what you agreed with

This would take too long, and can easily be summarized if I just say that I agree with what MCD's been saying about you.

Why did you agree with it?

Um... because I did? I don't know what kind of answer you want.

Do you understand why this is hypocrisy and not simply "mind changing"? You conveniently changed your mind on things you supported in posts yourself the moment MCD made mention

Often I won't notice things until someone else points them out. That's what happened here.

Where is your investigation? Have you no questions for me? lol

Do you have ANYTHING to ask? Anyone ELSE to ask? Anything unanswered, anything influencing your vote, anything I've said etc.

Yes, I want to know why you accused me of lurking.

You have less to say when it's not being said for you.

...not really.

[Alduskkel]

Is that your final response?

Yes, if you don't have anything left to ask.

[Alduskkel]

Al, what do you mean anything else? You've decided NOT to answer me because it will "take too long".

Thank you for completely ignoring the part where I answered it. I said listing every single thing I agreed with MCD on would take too long. I summarized and said that I agreed with MCD on everything he has said about you. Therefore, I answered you, regardless of whether you like that answer.

[Alduskkel]

Look Andy, from what I can tell you suspect me for two things (hypocrisy and buddying) that can be simply explained if you accept that:
1. I agree with people sometimes.
2. I change my mind sometimes.

Not exactly crazy assumptions.

[Alduskkel]

Whether you only realized it was hypocritical because "it needed to be pointed out to you" as you say or not, I feel that voting you is the best choice right now.

No, I said that I changed my mind when MCD pointed out inconsistencies from you, which you call hypocrisy on my part.

I'm happy to hear you out, I'm happy to better undertand. That's the fairness that should be given in the game, but surely you can see my hands being tied when you won't even make the effort (too much time??).

When you HAVE the time, please clear up what you can.

I feel the vote on you will inspire you to TAKE the time you feel isn't here to participate, think for yourself, and defend these scumtells. I want you to know I'm serious about this Al.

What is this part of the post supposed to say? I have been trying to clear things up, and I have been participating.

-Anti-town ignorance

Where'd you get this one?

Please do more than point and go "what he said".

Such as? What if I just don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said?

*You've been asked to in detail/point form list what you agreed with (and ideally what you had to bring to the table) in the "case" against me.*

Please list what you agreed with.

What is wrong with the statement, "I agree with MCD on everything he has said about you."

Why.

Because MCD has given evidence.

And whether you still agree.

You have to ask??? I've been saying for half a page or so that I DO agree with MCD, and in fact that's been your problem with me, my sudden and "opportunistic" agreement with him! I'm voting for you! Why do you need to ask this???

[Alduskkel]

My vote is on Al because he hasn't been thinking for himself

Wrong.

and is following a case he doesn't believe

Wrong.

gets emotional and angry

Wrong.

about having to MENTION, and has nothing to say when you're not saying it.

Wrong.

He's following the lynch - - he is doing NO scumhunting and was ignorant when I asked him to simply list his reasons.

Wrong. (Seeing a pattern here?) I HAVE listed them. Check post 60 in an isolation read of me.

Plus, he has a vote on me and you don't.

Excuse me? You're voting me over MCD partly because I'm voting for you and he isn't? That sounds like OMGUS behavior (happy now?).

The man believes in your "case" with more passion than you, and he didn't make it, conduct it, or persue it?

I did not make it, but I do pursue it. I don't know how you conduct a case though, what's that supposed to mean?

hohum: RESPOND TO 843!

That said I have an absolutely horrible habit of tunneling and I'm going to skim through a game and try and second guess myself as much as possible. If you think I'm backing off because it's attracting suspicion, fine, I don't care, and I'm fully expecting to get a lot of flak (especially from AT) for flip flopping or wishy washiness or what have you.

Not going to unvote yet though.

[Alduskkel]

-Being incapable of making a list (just like this one) as to why you suspect me to be scum.

For the last time, I have given a list. Look at my posts IN ISOLATION. Do you know how to do that? You select the option that says to show only my posts. Then check post #60.

Since your entire post rests on your lack of understanding of how to do this one simple thing I'm not going to respond to the rest.

[Alduskkel]

AndyTony, you need to RTF. Check 881 before saying I haven't given a list.

[Alduskkel]

RTF-->RTFT

[Alduskkel]

Hey hohum answer 843.

P.S.: I'm going through the AT-MCD exchange again.

[Alduskkel]

Unvote, Vote: Khamisa

.

Yes, this is another 180.
Yes, I expect people to accuse me of opportunistically changing my vote, and that I'm only changing it because I'm receiving flak.
Yes, I wasn't thinking that clearly the last few pages.
No, I don't care about those things.

Bottom line for Khamisa:
-active lurking
-inconsistent opinion on Zer0ph34r

I can be more specific.

P.S.: I still think AT's definition of OMGUS is inconsistent. Just how much of a difference is there between suspecting someone for suspecting you and voting someone for suspecting you? Not much. They're both the same in essence.

P.P.S.: hohum, why do you post simple things like "more andytony lynching"? I really don't saying just that will change anyone's minds. Is this another reaction thing?[/b]

[Alduskkel]

This lurker hunt business got us a mislynch before. Khamisa is V/LA and if she doesn't come back soon she needs to be replaced. Lynching someone V/LA is scummy as hell.

I don't think anyone voted for Cephrir because he was lurking.

This lurker hunt business got us a mislynch before. Khamisa is V/LA and if she doesn't come back soon she needs to be replaced. Lynching someone V/LA is scummy as hell.

Khamisa's V/LA issue is only part of the reason people are voting for her.
Remember?

That is not at all my reason for voting for her. Not even part of it.

Fine, but lynching someone V/LA is still in extremely poor taste. What's the harm in leaving her alive so she can respond? Lynching someone *KNOWN* not to be at their keyboard so they can't respond is:

A) rushing a lynch
B) very one-sided.

We're not lyching her today. Sorry.

Why can't we just lynch her when she gets back then? Aside from you wanting to lynch AT instead.

Are you changing your opinion on AT being scum? If so, what was it that made you do so?

Yeah. In short:
"Claiming that he had the best case on Cephrir repeatedly": Going over it it seems natural enough. Basically a lot of people were voting for Cephrir over the note so AT probably felt the need to clarify that he wasn't. Although it seems kind of weird that he didn't mind the people who still went after him for the note to self.

"Telling Kise how to not appear scummy to him": This only works if AT is Town so...

I'll quote MCD for this one:

Post 256 - You expressed an interest in knowing Ceph's role.
Post 457 - You vote for Ceph for wanting to know Zero's role.

Only problem is the assumption that 256 was asking for Ceph's role. (go check it, he's talking about the note to self)

"Protecting Zer0 then voting him right after he votes for dejkha": Explained in 346.

"OMGUS": Well in retrospect AT was giving reasons for his votes, although the composition of his suspects still seems a bit more than coincidental.

Post 528 - Agree that we should wait for replacements before proceeding with lynch. Also claim that the beauty of the game is that it doesn't press us for time. You then go on to mention that you're happy to keep waiting.
Post 734 - You request a shorter deadline to 'jump start' things.

Post 179 - You claim to be an advocate of diplomacy
Post 773 - You ask hohum to stop being hypocritical and aggressive toward Alduskkel. Also claim that 'people are more than happy to be civil.'
Post 773 - You begin referring to hohum as 'ignorant' (and continue in following posts). Not very diplomatic or civil.

I agree with these though.

So I'd say I'm still suspicious of AT but not

as

suspicious of him as before. So consider it a FoS.

[Alduskkel]

- Latching onto other people's cases.
- Doing very little scumhunting.
- What seems like buddying to hohum. He was attacked by him D1, and then he switches to attack his target.
- Changing opinions quickly.
- Saying in advance why his actions may give birth to suspicion against him - yet doing nothing to defend himself properly.

I'll accept the first one, and the third one (even if it isn't true, but circumstances have conspired against me). However, I think I have been scum hunting, maybe in a roundabout way but still. As for the fourth, frankly I still don't think that changing my mind is a scum tell. I don't see how the fifth is scummy.

[Alduskkel]

You might want to check it again...OccamR asks if the note is about a role ability that Ceph might have. AT responds that if it were a role ability, that he definitely would want to know....so yes, the post is about the note, but whether the note is about Ceph's role.

Sorry. I didn't check 255.

[Alduskkel]

Hi d3x!

[Alduskkel]

Mod: Prod Khamisa. According to this quote from you:

I should also note that earlier today Khamisa indicated to me via PM that she will be V/LA until next Saturday.

So Khamisa should have been back 4 days ago.

Anyone who voted for Cephir is a bit of a hypocrit for accusing someone else for why they voted Cephir. Out of MCD, AT & Al, I think Al's reason for voting Ceph was a little mild.

What are you trying to say here? What do you mean, my vote for Cephrir was "mild"? How can a vote be mild?

[Alduskkel]

Screwed up the tags. Hopefully Crazy will see it anyway.

[Alduskkel]

But I never said Cephrir was definitely scum.

[Alduskkel]

Because I thought he was probably scum.

[Alduskkel]

AndyTony, any reason you took Kdub's case on Khamisa, tacked on a bit about Cephrir's lynch, and didn't give Kdub credit?

[Alduskkel]

Most of what you said about Khamisa has already been said by Kdub though.

[Alduskkel]

In fact I'll just quote the relevant stuff.

Posts 293 and 299, [Khamisa] suspects Zer0 for not contributing or asking questions, yet she has not done so either at this point (and doesn't for a long time after this point as well).

In post 433, she thinks Zer0 is town (this is after he has voted dejhka who wanted to be replaced). Then, in 493, she says he is scummy because of his reaction to dejhka's replacement request, despite the fact that he said nothing new about dejhka since 433. She later pushes a case against him based almost entirely on this, even though she said she thought he was town right after he did it.

- Since your [Khamisa's] opinion on Zero changed with an inconsistency to his activity (substantial posts from him vs. your reasoning). It would suggest that you formed your opinion of him going from town/scum based on other people's discussion, and not Zero's behavior. Were you playing off the town, or is there a certain post you can link us to where Zero sold himself to you as scum? - - You posted almost 5 pages after he voted on Dej and said you thought he was annoyed town, and that his reasoning was fishy at best.

As people other than Zero posted and speculated, you held on to this sentiment until out of nowhere you made the statement suggesting Zero was "Mad that his scumpartner left" (Dej). You went from thinking he was town, and voted Dej because he was mad that he bailed - - to making the statement that they were scumpartners (something myself and others speculated).

These are, essentially, the same, so you're basically copying Kdub without saying you are.

[Alduskkel]

AndyTony: I think it's scummy of you to steal a case

without giving credit.

I'd actually prefer to wait for MCD to return before commenting on him. I want to see what he has to say first. Frankly I think it's bad of d3x to answer for MCD; he's basically handing him a defense.

[Alduskkel]

I never stole a case

Then you're going to have to reread 1052.

And I wouldn't make hypocritical statements of "I find stealing cases scummy" after the day you've been having. (Hence the vote)

I said it was scummy to steal cases without

giving credit

. I said so in 1055. It was italicized! Either you're not reading closely or you're deliberately choosing not to acknowledge my clarification.

[Alduskkel]

Al
- "Giving credit". Do I strike you as the type to try to run something like that past everyone? Kbub's post RIGHT ABOVE MINE says it already - why would I post right after him?

WIFOM.

[Alduskkel]

Hi. What exactly was the point of that post?

[Alduskkel]

Okay... then why'd you post something that was said in the post right above you?

[Alduskkel]

- I don't think Khamisa has fully addressed/cleared herself from suspicion, and I'm sure she'll get that impression when she reads that she is of interest to so many people. Why post right after him? Dude, that's when my post was up lol I didn't plan anything, I read the board, made notation, posted my thoughts.

This really doesn't answer my question, or I've misunderstood. Why did you feel the need to restate what Kdub had said in the previous post? You could just say, "I agree with Kdub w.r.t. Khamisa, and in addition X Y and Z."

If they're such weak points, why are you [AndyTony] continually pushing back so hard? You've been going bananas from the get-go for such weak points that can't be used. Why not let the weak points speak for themselves? Clearly everyone else would see that they're not usable, right?

Right. So you can accuse him of ignoring questions.

His activity has been void of inestigations, questions, and more specific scum hunting

Hey, I think I've been raising decent points recently.

And AndyTony must be dying of laughter since he's saying "lol" so much.

[Alduskkel]

If they're such weak points, why are you [AndyTony] continually pushing back so hard? You've been going bananas from the get-go for such weak points that can't be used. Why not let the weak points speak for themselves? Clearly everyone else would see that they're not usable, right?

Right. So you can accuse him of ignoring questions.

Al, that's multiple times that you've popped in to defend AT. It wouldn't be so odd if it weren't for your early vote for him (based on your blanket agreement with my earlier points against him). Since the potential link has been pointed out between the two of you, you seem to have almost gone out of your way to draw AT to you.

I can't think of a logical reason why a townie would do this, but can think of a couple why scum might:

1. Player A (scum) draws in Player B (town) hoping to secure Player B's mislynch should Player A be lynched.
2. Player A (scum) draws in Player B (scum) actually hoping to muddy an existing link (through WIFOM) should Player A be lynched.

Both create a muddy link that the town needs to sort through after Player A is lynched and flips scum.

Thoughts?

Strong FoS: Alduskkel

And yet you haven't actually addressed my point. You just OMGUS'd me here (and screw you Andy, I have a looser definition of OMGUS ); you didn't respond to my point, just twisted it into something scummy and attacked me. You're essentially saying that if the points against AT were so weak then he shouldn't have bothered with them at all. If AT had done that I guarantee he would have taken flak.

And I better not be the only one having trouble following the AT-d3x exchange. This phrase just baffles me:

"Trying to paint this {my entry into the debate between you and MCd} as anything but {ie- me taking a special interest} is scummy"

[Alduskkel]

Can we stop with the insults? kthx

[Alduskkel]

No you and d3x are trading insults and you insulting hohum pretty recently.

And I think I've made it clear what I think about Khamisa.

[Alduskkel]

Regardless of whether your points were actually weak or not, what matters is that you were able to get a decent wagon going against AT, indicating that there were others who did not think they were weak. If he doesn't defend himself, he looks bad since it appears he doesn't have good answers for your questioning. If he defends himself, he faces accusations like this one. It's not a good way to catch scum (attack a player, then accuse them of being too defensive when they respond) because if you think they are suspicious, you will subconsciously change your threshold of what is "too defensive" such that you will conclude they are scum far more often than is warranted. I think you should take a step back and look objectively at your case before you continue to push forward after he has addressed your points.

This is just a longer version of what I've been saying in 1083 and 1097.[/quote]

[Alduskkel]

We're lynching Khamisa for actively lurking though.

And I'd rather you get replaced than stop playing, hohum.

[Alduskkel]

well I'm not going to allow myself to be replaced.

Why not?

[Alduskkel]

well I'm not going to allow myself to be replaced.

Why not?

Because the lurker wagons are being driven by scum. I'm not going to allow myself to be replaced so that the scum team has another sheep which will happily go along with this nonsense and say nothing.

And what makes you say that your replacer will be a sheep?

[Alduskkel]

Why?

[Alduskkel]

Lurking:
-You're posting is sparse and short even when you're not V/LA
-You often don't know what's going on it seems, meaning you aren't really contributing to discussion. For instance you thought that the case against Cephrir completely revolved around the note to self, and forgot about the possibility of Doctor protection (given the lack of a kill)
How It's Active Lurking:
The main thing is that you actually went and checked several of Cephrir's games just to get his meta. That was a definite contribution, but it means that you

can

contribute when you feel like it, but don't seem to feel like it very often.

And you still haven't really said what post made you change your mind about Zer0ph34r.

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP:
You're-->your

[Alduskkel]

Mod: Deadline extension please? Just a few days for the replacement situation.

[Alduskkel]

Unvote.

If Khamisa was lurking as a scum strategy and not as a play style or real life issues or whatever, then she should have become more active when the pressure was put on, not sit back and easily remain the top lynch candidate.

Simply put, even though she's close to being lynched and it's near the deadline, she has still lurked even though that's what got her into trouble in the first place. Maybe I'm WIFOMing the hell out of myself, but I doubt it. I don't see scum-Khamisa counting on people to come to this conclusion.

In short, her behavior does not come across as scum who's trying to avoid being lynched (read: almost all scum).

I don't know who I'm going to vote for now, but I do think that Khamisa's behavior seems more to be her personality, not her role.

Mod: Prod MadCrawdad.

[Alduskkel]

To a large degree I have tunneled a lot in the past (I can give links) and I'm trying to be more open minded. So that's why I'm changing my vote a fair amount.

My point about Khamisa, AndyTony, is that she can't be lurking as a strategy. It makes no sense for her to lurk when it will almost certainly get her lynched (even with my unvote she is still by far the leading candidate). I think Khamisa doesn't really feel like putting much effort into this game, which is nothing we haven't seen before.

[Alduskkel]

@ODDin -
No worries, your points are important to me and I'll address those, as well as any Kham doesn't answer by the time I get back (you repeated my questions to her and I'm hoping she'll answer you!)

Wait, why do you want Khamisa to answer questions directed at you, even if they're also directed at her?

[Alduskkel]

Mod: I'd like to request a forced replacement of hohum, who, in his own words, said:

I refuse to participate.

[Alduskkel]

Can we cut back down on the walls of text? Thanks.

Al [who's been flip flopping too much for comfort]

Well considering what happens when I

don't

flip flop I'd say I'm justified in my actions.

To me Khamisa just seems like a very bored Townie (not saying she's vanilla, just hate saying "pro-Town player") who just doesn't feel like contributing much. I'd argue that if she were scum she'd be thrashing or something. She doesn't react to pressure like you'd expect scum to.

AndyTony: Could you give more details on the Jungle Republic game and how scum-Khamisa's play there is similar to her play in this game??

Khamisa: Do you think the Jungle Republic game even fits your play style in this game?

[Alduskkel]

Just so we're clear AndyTony, you're talking about Open 148, right?

I just think it's natural for scum to squirm when they're getting close to being lynched. To put a bit more effort into defending themselves, at least.

[Alduskkel]

Well, with search not working and Jungle Republic being a fairly common setup nowadays can you blame me for asking which one you were talking about?

[Alduskkel]

Okay, Khamisa's scum play there is surprisingly similar to her play here. Right down to the "I told you so" after a Townie has been lynched, even though she didn't defend that Townie much (if at all) when they were still busy getting lynched.

Seriously. Everyone go read the first 2 Days of that game.

Vote: Khamisa

.

[Alduskkel]

Allow me.

Backseat Modding Vote Count!

Khamisa (5) - Kdub, lobstermania, Kise, AndyTony, Alduskkel
Alduskkel (2) - ODDin, MadCrawdad
AndyTony (2) - hohum, d3x
Kise (1) - pablito

Not voting (2) - Chinaman, Khamisa

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

[Alduskkel]

I found very little suspicious about Cephrir. Even If I didn't know where the note to self was or what it was about, I had a good idea what it was, and based my opinions off of that. Plus, yes, there is the part where it looks like I'm scum because I stayed off the Cephrir lynch, but it's equally if not more scummy that there was actually a Cephrir lynch which consisted of very little in my opinion.

This a bit of an "I told you so." quote, Khamisa. By your own admission you didn't really push his defense that much:

Also, I feel I did decently in presenting the meta case for Cephrir, but I guess I didn't push it.

You didn't do much more than say that you disagreed with the Cephrir case, not to mention the fact that you didn't even really seem to understand it.

For the record, I think Khamisa is talking about Open 143 (which I'll skim through in a bit).

hohum being scared?

- It's an opinion, not a fact. d3x, I can't know the state of his mind, what are you playing at?

Fact - We had a mislynch. Hohum's opening D2 actions was to rush a lynch. He did no hunting, there was no concrete wagon - all he knew was that he wanted a quicklynch - I find that suspicious. I feel like town would have been more calculated and responsible. That's all

But how does that imply fear?

[Alduskkel]

Fear/Anxiety/Impatience

Have it as you will. Either way, after a mislynch, a towny would be more calculated than to want a quicklynch prior to conducting any investigations or a case/evidence being concrete

This is not fear. Anxiety, impatience, and fear are all completely separate things. You said hohum was scared. I'm asking you how you got that impression. Answer.

[Alduskkel]

I can't judge the state of his mind, I'm supposing that IF he were scum, he would be scared about going into a day that follows a mislynch (and naturally want the quickest solution) which is opportunity.

If you can't judge his state of mind, then... why did you judge his state of mind when you said he was scared? That's a whole inconsistency is a single sentence. Furthermore, why would he be scared about going into a day after a mislynch if he was scum?

Also, have you read Open 143?

[Alduskkel]

Not to mention the fact that d3x didn't admit to misrepresenting you in 1224.

[Alduskkel]

Simulpost! Will respond soon.

[Alduskkel]

I'm saying that I can't say for concrete what the state of his mind was - I'm speculating - and I think out of fear, or nerves, or whatever it could be, that hohum wanted to rush the next mislynch.

It's a light suspicion, what's your obsession?

And why ask me such a ridiculous question? Did you seriously suggest I hadn't read open 143 after being not only the main player in it, but the high profile player that won the game for town?

Yeah, Al. I read it.

Oh. Whoops. Lol. Does Khamisa's play in there seem similar to her play here?

But really, why would hohum be scared? He wasn't under heavy fire, and trying to quicklynch had a higher chance of making him look scummy than actually getting a quicklynch through.

AndyTony, where did d3x acknowledge that he misrepresented you?

And before you say I'm ignoring 1231, I'm not, I just want to hear your answer to the above question first.

Are you telling me he didn't misrep?

Should I re-quote it?

Do YOU think he misrepresented?

1. Nice subject change. You're trying to switch to a conversation about whether or not he misrepresented you -- rather than about if he admitted to doing it. If he didn't, then you blatantly

lied

.

2. No.

3. No.

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP: Forgot to edit out "And before you say I'm ignoring 1231, I'm not, I just want to hear your answer to the above question first." At first I thought my answers to the questions would be reliant on your answer but then I realized it wasn't, and went ahead and gave answers.

[Alduskkel]

The above. Is it, or is it not misrepresentation?

I think it's a misunderstanding. Take note, ODDin had been expressing suspicion of you. I think d3x got confused.

Also, what would scum-d3x gain out of misrepresenting you this way?

Did you not read the Jungle Republic game?

Which one?

Also:

AndyTony, where did d3x acknowledge that he misrepresented you?

[Alduskkel]

Al,

read 1224.

d3x acknowledges my very quote.

What part of the post, specifically? No where do I see d3x admitting to misrepresenting you.

HOW MANY JUNGLE REPUBLIC GAMES ARE LINKED THROUGH THIS GAME, EXACTLY?

1. But 2 have been referred to.

[Alduskkel]

I'm not going to repeat myself or my cases

Which is exactly why you made d3x repeat his case on you.

Are you having trouble between asking me where he ACKNOWLEDGED it, or ADMITTED to it?

I feel him quoting it is acknowledging it.

d3x

acknowledged

that you accused him of misrepresenting him. He did not acknowledge that he did, in fact, misrepresent you. You specifically say in 1225 that d3x acknowledged that he misrepresented you.

And I feel him not arguing the contrary at the time is admitting it (having already acknowledged it, you see).

He did argue to the contrary:

So I ask for you to show me the quote and you respond with "Way to Misrep"? And you wonder why I got my dander up in the first place.

[Alduskkel]

AndyTony, all I ask is one quote where d3x admits to representing you, or acknowledges that he misrepresented you. Note that this is not the same as acknowledging that you're accusing him of misrepresenting you.

One quote. That's it.

[Alduskkel]

d3x: Answer this.

who knows, man. You went from wanting to put Kham to L-1, to chickening out and asking me if ther IS a case on her and WHAT it is?

[Alduskkel]

That's about what I was expecting from you, d3x. I just didn't want to hand you a defense.

Anyway, the inconsistencies and lies are really piling for AndyTony.

Unvote, Vote: AndyTony
HoS: Khamisa

.

And since I know Andy is going to ask what my case is, here it is:
-AndyTony tried to shorten Day 1's deadline. Even if he didn't think it would help, there's nothing to say it would have hurt.
-Rolefishing in post 256.
-Continually ignores or distracts from my question of where d3x admitted to misrepresenting him (AndyTony).
-This quote from d3x too:

I would also like to request the place where I asked AT if there IS a case on [Khamisa]. If unproven, this is a gross misrepresentation and I'll add it to my case.

Have you had a chance to compare meta from kham to 143?

No, I have homework to do so I'm logging off after this post.

AndyTony: Seriously. Find a quote of d3x admitting to misrepresenting you, or admit that you lied. Or you can just keep looking scummier and scummier by not giving a straight answer. Your choice.

[Alduskkel]

Let me make this clear. You said:

@d3x
Thanks for acknowledging you misrepresenting me (lol.)

I have repeatedly asked for where d3x said this. A single quote. You haven't given it. Either give me a quote for this, or admit that you're lying. Don't just keep ignoring the question.

I'm not going to drop this. Don't think that just not responding to it will make me stop asking. I also do not want you going on about how d3x misrepresented you. That is not what I am asking about. I am asking for where d3x ADMITTED to this.

And how about you actually address 1253, rather than just ignoring the fact that my current case on you has almost nothing to do with MCD's points about you?

Couple of other things I want answered:

I would also like to request the place where I asked AT if there IS a case on [Khamisa]. If unproven, this is a gross misrepresentation and I'll add it to my case.

and

Seriously? You accuse me of skimming and then you're baffled when I missed something? Which way do you want it, AT? You can't have both.

AndyTony, what part of "d3x asking for clarification about the links" do you not understand? You keep calling it a misrepresentation.

AndyTony wagon -
-Not much thought/investigation further than MCD's speculation, yet he's the only one not on it.
- People have to CHOOSE to IGNORE all REASONABLE and PRO-TOWN explanations so they can CHOOSE to regard MINOR EVENTS as inconsistencies so that they can CHOOSE to look at me as scum.

Straw man. Come back when you've actually read the cases. It's not just MCD's stuff anymore.

We are in a game with three scum
Kham was at L-2
This game has more than accepted people going "I agree with this case" without adding anything new (as in they could have hopped on and not added anything new to this case)
hence it's more comforting thinking Kham is scum because....she's not getting quicklynched. Not even by hohum (who threatened to ruin the game and kill himself if we tried to lynch her!)

A towny on trial would have been quicklynched by now (with a case like hers) I think she's scum, and her buddies are looking to distract.

They would still run the risk of drawing suspicion imo, depending on just how quick it was. Plus there could have been 2-3 scum on her already.

What are your thoughts on said points and meta for Kham?

Really AndyTony, Khamisa has only gotten scummier to me. You're just even scummier for not answering some questions and lying, among other things outlined in 1253.

Here's the question then. How would you go about catching up in a game like this

Personally I think it might be a good idea for you to read Day 2 and refer back to Day 1 as necessary, and try to contribute more to current events, and try to get through Day 1 after all that.

Alduskkel, why are you voting AndyTony?

1253 provides a quick summary.

I appreciate that you're taking the time to read through everything - thank you for replacing in as well, this is a pretty big game! Questions and comments are always welcome, and assuming you've made it to the posts where Kise comes in - - no need to over compensate! There's plenty of time for you to be brought up to speed!

This seems like buddying and trying to get on the good side of Chinaman to me. Just excessive sucking up here imo.

Khamisa: Can you provide a meta example of you, as town, playing similarly to how you are playing now? The more recent the better.

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP: The "you" at the beginning is referring to AndyTony.

[Alduskkel]

@Al
- You already know the quotes aren't there, which makes this a miniscule and silly battle for what exactly? I got in a head to head with d3x and wasn't careful with my words? We don't lynch people for that, we lynch them for being scum.

So why did it take you this long to answer? Are you admitting that you were LYING when you said that? Because that's how it looks, and your hesitance to answer is very scummy, particularly because you only answered after I made it clear I would keep bringing it up.

You don't think d3x was "lying" when he said that ODDin did NOT ask for quotes?

I've already answered this.

***This is a semantic battle. It's weak, and a waste of my time***

The entirety of forum Mafia is semantics.

And please outline how I'm scummier than Kham.

You've overtly lied. You've ignored questions. You've role fished. You've tried to shorten the deadline. Do I really have to go on?

Is she your scum partner? She wasn't quicklynched and you're distracting.

Well no, and since when is raising valid points "distracting"? What, are we only allowed to talk about Khamisa?

[Alduskkel]

@AL,
Why did it take me that long to answer?

I don't know, that's what I'm asking you.

Do you deny that you already knew the answer?

I was fairly sure that you didn't have a quote available and were lying, but just to be sure I wanted you to at least have the chance to explain yourself, and if you had admitted right off the bat that you had misspoke or something I would have been easier on you, maybe even stuck with Khamisa. Instead you ignored it and it seems to me that you were trying to avoid it altogether.

*As for if d3x was lying. Enough of this "I already answered" - tell me again for hoots. Did he lie?

I am NOT going to repeat myself. You have said yourself:

I'm not going to repeat myself or my cases for your benefit

It's rather hypocritical of you to ask me to repeat myself. Go back and look. It's not like it's 30 pages ago or something.

The semantics? It's a waste of time - it doesn't lead to me being scum, it leads to at best, me having paraphrased an opinion/thought/inferrence - - something I've been trying endlessly to make you all see you're equally guilty of!

Uh, if you were lying (and at this point you admit that you were) then that definitely points to you being scum.

If you're going to call me a liar

You ARE a liar. It doesn't get any simpler. You said d3x admitted that he misrepresented you. He didn't.

Don't tell me I ignore

Let's look at the facts.
1229: This is when I first brought up your statement that d3x admitted to misrepresenting you.
1230: You talk about stuff related to it but fail to provide a quote or give an explanation of your statement. You redirect to whether or not d3x misrepresented at all.
1234: I ask the question again, bolding it.
1236: You don't answer it again, saying that I'm just obsessed with wording.
1237: I ask it again, bolding it and enlarging the font size.
1239: You misrepresent my statement, changing it to whether or not d3x acknowledged your accusation of misrepresentation, rather than if he admitted to it.
1241: I ask again.
1242: You continue the misrepresentation of my statement.
1243: I try and clarify.
1244: You redirect again to whether or not d3x misrepresented you at all.
1245: You say I'm distracting and still don't answer.
1247: I ask again for the umpteenth time for a quote where d3x admits to misrepresenting you.
1251 & 1252: You completely ignore it.
1254 & 1256: I think I'll excuse these if you're drunk here. In fact, which posts did you write while drunk? Just so we're clear here. How do you think being drunk affects your posting?
1259: You basically say I'm just arguing about petty semantics.
1266: I ask AGAIN and mention that I'm going to keep bringing it up.
1268: You finally answer. What a crazy coincidence!

In other words, I've had to ask literally 6 or 7 times before getting a straight answer from you. It's not like I hid the question; on the contrary, I've worked to make it stand out.

Can you please show me where I role fished?

I have, and I'm not going to repeat myself on this either. Do your research! I'm not going to state my case and then have you ask what it is.

[Alduskkel]

You already know the quotes aren't there, which makes this a miniscule and silly battle for what exactly? I got in a head to head with d3x and wasn't careful with my words? We don't lynch people for that, we lynch them for being scum.

Here you say that you weren't careful with your words. I.e., lying.

You were fairly sure? You were reading along and already knew the answer, didn't you?

So you definately knew. It was just a leading question. Or....were you lying?

If you weren't lying - were you asking me to do work for you and....repeat? Now it's hypocrisy, I can't keep track.

I can't have lied, because I never said that I didn't know the answer. I also didn't know with 100% certainty. I might have missed something. Maybe you had a decent explanation. THAT is why I asked.

Yet you pushed your own up above? To have ME repeat? As to "where did he admit it"?

I repeated myself because you wouldn't answer.

[Alduskkel]

Oh, and if I'm misunderstanding you, and you didn't admit to lying, then give me a quote where d3x admits to misrepresenting you to prove that you weren't lying.

[Alduskkel]

I take that to mean that you didn't admit to lying. In that case answer 1274.

can you let me know what you thought of the meta read on Kham (in depth) and tell me your feelings on what her flipping scum would suggest to you about hohum's befavior?

I think she's scum. I just think you're more likely to be scum. I think it would certainly incriminate hohum, but it's hard to make a good call when he posts so little nowadays.

[Alduskkel]

So hard to make a good call? Then why make a rushed one? An ill informed one?

It makes perfect sense. hohum probably isn't going to post much of anything while we're going after Khamisa. If I want a better read on him it makes sense to go after you. That and you're scum.

Did you

ask

me, clearly, if I had role fished?

I didn't have to ask, it seemed pretty clear what you were doing.

Or did you just subtly accuse me of it in the midst of your posting?

Hardly. I gave it when I summarized my case on you. Somehow that doesn't seem very "sneaky".

And this "lying" conversation is over.

Oh, no. You have not provided a quote where d3x admits to misrepresenting you. If you cannot give it then you lied. There's no getting around it. You keep trying to end it, but it's not done until you admit to lying or give the quote.

Also, respond to these:

I would also like to request the place where I asked AT if there IS a case on [Khamisa]. If unproven, this is a gross misrepresentation

In fact, which posts did you write while drunk? How do you think being drunk affects your posting?

or when you said I admitted to lying - - but didn't; they'll have something to say.

Well clearly I misinterpreted you. It's not hard when you literally say "I got in a head to head with d3x and wasn't careful with my words," which implies that you misspoke.

So instead of accusing me of things and hoping I don't catch them so you can then accuse me of ignoring them

Yeah, how does that work? I make my questions nothing if not visible. If you read my posts you'll see them. If you don't answer them I bold them. I enlarge their size. How the hell can I be expecting you to miss them?

You're referring to the D1 accusation from MCD lol

Here are the posts in chronological order.

And the "reasons I don't want to discuss" - - I might have missed it in the re-read, but this in addition to what

you said you wrote to remind yourself of something to bring up later - - what was it? I'm just as curious, and

secrets so early seem sketchy to me.

It's the same thing.

When I talk about it, you'll see why I didn't want to, I promise.

I'd

like to give a hint or something but then it would probably be obvious

.

If everyone really insists I'll do it now

. It's not as big of a deal as it appears to be, but I'd still rather save it.

Are you talking about

a role ability you have?

If it were a role, that would constitute a big deal, so I definitely want to know.

Ceph, what's the big idea/secret?

He says what he's keeping a secret isn't a big deal - - I exclaim that if it WERE a role, it WOULD be a big deal (contrary to where Occamr was leading) - - hence since it's not a big deal - - it's safe to ask - - "Ceph, what's the big idea/secret"

That is roundabout and counter-intuitive. You said that you "definitely want to know" which implies, to me, reading it, that if you would definitely want to know something if it's that big of a deal. And did it really take you that long to figure out what I was referencing?

Okay, Khamisa's scum play there is surprisingly similar to her play here.

Right down to the "I told you so" after a Townie has been lynched

, even though she didn't defend that Townie much (if at all) when they were still busy getting lynched.

Seriously. Everyone go read the first 2 Days of that game.

Vote: Khamisa

.

hm.

Aldusskel:

I do not believe I ever "I told you so"ed in this game.

Also, I'm wrong here too. There was another Jungle Republic with AA23, who is AT's alt. That's the one I'm talking about. Still, maybe D1 is the same, but the D2's are drastically different.

Were you "lying", "misrepresenting" or "paraphrasing inference" there?

Did you even read 1220?

So d3x was "confused" - - is that WHY he lied, Al?

Perhaps you can show me where [ODDin asked for the links].

I.e., d3x was asking for clarification, not misrepresenting.

Kise: What do you think of my case on AndyTony?

[Alduskkel]

Also, the whole "hohum being scared" thing got swallowed up. Here's another question for you AndyTony:

But really, why would hohum be scared? He wasn't under heavy fire, and trying to quicklynch had a higher chance of making him look scummy than actually getting a quicklynch through.

[Alduskkel]

Al-
This "lying" business. You keep telling me what you felt was

implied

- and that you

misunderstood

- am I not allowed to write what I infer? Am I not allowed to misunderstand?

It's one sided.

How come you did the

exact same thing to me

and think you have the right to call me a "liar"? It's childish, and your only going to dig a deeper hole if this is the best you can come up with.

The difference between what you did and what I did is this: you said

I got in a head to head with d3x and wasn't careful with my words

which is ambiguous. Are you admitting to not being careful with your words, and thus didn't mean what you said, (which, while it is admitting to lying, is an acceptable explanation), or did you mean it rhetorically? I thought you meant the former, and that's where the confusion arose. That is a misinterpretation on my part, and once you cleared it up I didn't pursue it. However, when you lied, you said

@d3x
Thanks for acknowledging you misrepresenting me

There isn't anything ambiguous about this. You're clearly saying that d3x acknowledged that he misrepresented you. He didn't admit to that. Therefore, you were lying and there isn't a reasonable Town explanation for that given your subsequent responses when I questioned you about it.

And hohum being "scared".

Al. I've elaborated on this more than once and made it clear....

If you made it clear, then why am I asking? (that was a joke)

But seriously, you never addressed this:

But really, why would hohum be scared? He wasn't under heavy fire, and trying to quicklynch had a higher chance of making him look scummy than actually getting a quicklynch through.

And why did it take that much time to realize what you meant by "role fishing"? Because I didn't think you were working off of MCD stuff again lol

And why'd you think that?

Did you not notice Kise's comment? I think he (and by now others) are on to your flipping and are as unsettled as me).

What did you expect me to say to it? I flipped. I'm not going to lie. Make of it what you will. I'll argue about the motives for my flipping, but I won't argue about my having flipped.

I reckon you'll flip again - - or continue to dig your hole, possibly tunnel, and stick to me to save your ass.

So I'll come out scummier either way? That's ridiculous.

What are your thoughts on the recent Kham developments? I put a lot of work in that post

I agree with it.

[Alduskkel]

Any reasons

why

you disagree with the case, Kdub? Because I'd like to hear them.

[Alduskkel]

I'm saying that I can't say for concrete what the state of his mind was - I'm speculating - and I think out of fear, or nerves, or whatever it could be, that hohum wanted to rush the next mislynch.

It's a light suspicion, what's your obsession?

And why ask me such a ridiculous question? Did you seriously suggest I hadn't read open 143 after being not only the main player in it, but the high profile player that won the game for town?

Yeah, Al. I read it.

hohum being scared?

- It's an opinion, not a fact. d3x, I can't know the state of his mind, what are you playing at?

Fact - We had a mislynch. Hohum's opening D2 actions was to rush a lynch. He did no hunting, there was no concrete wagon - all he knew was that he wanted a quicklynch - I find that suspicious. I feel like town would have been more calculated and responsible. That's all

Yeah, and my point is that there's no reason for hohum to take the risk of looking scummy for trying to quicklynch you. Do you think he really expected it to work? He'd have to get 6 other people to rapidly agree with him for it to be a quicklynch. I'm just not seeing it. And why would he be afraid? Afraid of what, exactly?

There you go, Al - - two posts you clearly ignored (actually, you've read them) where I addressed and elaborated on the "hohum scared" sentiment.

I didn't ignore them, I merely don't think they provide an adequate explanation.

And why is your case not going to be agreed with?

I never said it wouldn't be agreed with.

Because you flip flopped to me, to try and prove me WRONG and INCORRECT with words. You're supposed to prove I'm scum, Al, which I'm not. Your endeavor is fruitless and you'll find little support over silly word games.

Actually I'm proving you're scummy. You lied to make d3x look scummier, and I think set him up for a Day 3 lynch. When caught in this lie you tried to drown it out in other things and only gave a straight answer after I pressured you over and over.

Also, you didn't address all of the questions in 1309.

You agree with the Kham developments? Does that mean you read them in detail, and you understand that all of her evidence is bold and more so concrete than the junk you're throwing at me?

You may agree with it, Al, but I'm afraid I don't believe you understand it.

I do understand it. I understand that she matches her scum meta and doesn't really match her Town meta. I also think that you're still scummier.

You had no comments in detail about the Kham developments?

What exactly do you want me to comment on? Kham's Town meta doesn't match and her Scum meta does. There's nothing more to say.

Kise and Pablito?

What about them?

You're going to ignore all of that for a word game? - - just as I predicted. You'll tunnel. Al, that hole is getting deeper.

If you think I'm tunneling, then you must think I'm pro-Town.

Check my meta.

Re: AndyTony 1316. I'm pretty sure you're trying to discredit me.

Any reasons

why

you disagree with the case, Kdub? Because I'd like to hear them.

Mainly because I think much of it is based on interpretation of AT's wording (the semantic issue again) as opposed to his actual opinions or actions. Take your argument about his "lie" for example. Even if you are right, it's not like the "lie" was of the nature that creates a suspicious inconsistency in his argument, nor does it really reveal anything about his true intentions or opinion. I think your argument is more about making AT look bad (in terms of good/bad play) rather than making him look scummy (if that makes sense).

But that's not at all what my argument is about... haven't I made clear why AndyTony's actions make him more likely to be scum?

I can hardly stand [...] Al myself

Why?

-meta is better used by scum (again, my opinion). I say this because lets say person A uses meta on person B. person B is town this game but person A uses only the meta from when person B played as scum and makes links to person B being scum even though they may have made the same mistakes in meta from when they play town. (hope that made sense, if not I can do a whole scenario write up and go into detail).

But we haven't just been bringing up Khamisa's scum meta... this example doesn't apply at all!

I don't think your case on hohum is very solid. I think he severely disagrees with the case on Khamisa and thinks the Town is heading toward disaster, and is just trying to get us on (what he thinks is) the right track. And AndyTony's right, attacking hohum by his connection with Khamisa is a bit ridiculous when Khamisa has more evidence against her.

[Alduskkel]

Al, you say I'm trying to discredit d3x.

Nope. Try reading my posts. I said you're trying to discredit me..

Do me a favor (because I noticed this when you wrote to Chinaman) - - don't refer to anything on the Kham case as "we"/ what "we've" done. You didn't offer anything new, you hardly investigated, you only agreed with it, and flip flopped. Don't make it sound like it's your brainchild so that you can comfortably flip flop again when it's

convenient

for you, it insults the people that actually INVEST in that case.

Since when have I claimed that I invented the case? Kdub's primarily the one who first brought it up. I added a bit, then you brought up a ton of meta.

AndyTony: Straw Man.
tl;dr: too long; didn't read

[Alduskkel]

I'll find it very opportunistic of you to hop back on the Kham case like you loved it all along.

Except... that I have loved it all along. (Well, not enough to marry it lol)

Also I would like to actually see direct, isolated quotes (numbers included) where you added something new to the Kham case. Just for my own sake, I'd like to read them, Al.

k

There's been a lot of lurking and inactivity, yes, but the difference is that Khamisa is actively lurking. She could participate more, and even went to the bother to check several of Cephrir's previous games, but she chooses not to.

I add to it by pointing out that Khamisa obviously could participate more, but doesn't really.

I'd like to know why Chinaman suddenly vote hopped. Bussing or wagoning? I don't know.

[Alduskkel]

Take note of the signature guys. I'd prefer to not have 5 pages of wall posts to go through when I come back. I'll only have 1 or 2 days to catch up then.

Sorry.

P.S.: Though I might find a Starbucks and plug in the computer there.

[Alduskkel]

I think Chinaman is newbscum and is trying to save Khamisa. Her sudden inactiveness plus her convenient switching near deadline all point to that. I think the scum are Khamisa, Chinaman, and an unknown third who I strongly suspect is AndyTony. Right now I don't really care who we lynch between AndyTony and Khamisa, they're both super scummy to me (I prefer AndyTony by a bit). Chinaman probably should be left relatively alone until Khamisa flips.

P.S.: No longer V/LA.

[Alduskkel]

I don't think scum are as inclined to quicklynch as you think, Chinaman. People usually wait for the person to claim. So the lack of AT quicklynching doesn't say very much.

Two, it has been my (limited) experience that when someone randomly places a vote without explanation and thus putting someone next in line for lynch, a true townie who is not sure about his/her vote (how can they be, theyre town), will leave the wagon until such a time that the person explains their actions. For this reason, d3x moves to a position of town for me.

The problem with this is the time factor. Deadline is cropping up fast, and the idea of 'leaving the wagon until such a time that the person explains their actions' doesn't hold up when that person might not show up fast enough.

And I'd like to point out that Chinaman just admitted that what he did was scummy:

I deliberately did something scummy

Also, just because a person's play style can change doesn't mean that meta is useless. Have you read those Khamisa games, or at least skimmed them? Khamisa's play here fits her scum play in other games and doesn't fit her town play. Do you really think that that's just a coincidence?

[Alduskkel]

If Khamisa flipped Town then I'd just keep my eye on Chinaman. If Khamisa flipped Scum then I'd probably vote for Chinaman.

[Alduskkel]

Well let's see. ODDin's scum list was this:
1. Me.
2. Khamisa.
3. hohum.
4. AndyTony.
5. Kise.

So his night kill might be an attempt to frame me.

But enough of that.

Vote: Chinaman

. Your interactions with Khamisa at the end of Day 2 speak for themselves.

FoS: hohum
HoS: AndyTony

hohum gets a FoS for his interactions with Khamisa too.

[Alduskkel]

thirdly, kdub, lobster, kise, and AT were all on the vote for kham. correct me if I'm wrong, but unless there was some serious busing going on, at least 3 of those 4 are most likely town. I would say that if any of them weren't town, it would prolly be whoever voted last for her. even then though, AT had an equal number of votes so unless AT is scum and bussed kham, then AT is most town.

Since AT is most town, at least for me, then I will be going back to hohum.

I'm not following this logic... what makes you say that AT didn't bus Khamisa?

Your D2 play was seemingly insecure towny, and quickly developed into suspicious flip flopping scum sitting on the fence. When Kham's wagon was holding strong and the deadline was fast approaching, you had rather weak means and seemingly illogical attacks in my direction.

I've gone over all of this -- I can and will change my mind, and if you think that's scummy then you need to rethink your scum tells. My supposedly "illogical" attacks involved catching you in a lie and ignoring my subsequent questioning about it, among other things which I've also stated before.

However - you're playing once again to your in game meta. You are voting the favored player of the day - the one you think will be easy to work with since you're assuming you'll have the most support from all the people who are uneasy with Chinaman - - - very opportunistic.

Gee AndyTony, why is it that Chinaman's lynch might very well get a lot of support? Maybe it's because he's been very scummy. What, does that mean that everyone else who votes for Chinaman will be scummy and opportunistic? Please.

@Chinaman -
Your play yesterday is hard to appreciate - it was risky, illogical, and suspicious. I don't get a scum impression from it, though. You replaced in here close to deadline, and while reading our game gives you an impression of who we all are - - you don't truly know us until we interact directly with you (and vice versa).

So I take it you've ignored the inconsistencies and that you didn't mind it when he put you in the lead over Khamisa but then when he got flak for it changed back to hohum? Why are you of all people letting him off the hook?

Answering this question might eliminate part of whats to come, but what is HoS?

Hand of Suspicion. It expresses more suspicion than a Finger of Suspicion (FoS).

That should answer some of the questions in the rest of the post. For the others:

What I don't get is why you think I am above suspicion over hohum when his posts are very much more for not voting Kham.

As has been said already, you've been caught in inconsistencies. In addition you took a much more direct approach to getting people off of Khamisa, actively defending her and pushing other people into the lead for being lynched (namely AndyTony).

some thoughts of my own for you to chew on. I have the feeling that there were at least one if not two scum voting for AT in D2. Do you (in general) think that is a fairly accurate statement?

Are you asking me or pablito?

[Alduskkel]

So let me get this straight.

You felt I was super scummy because you kicked up a fuss over a semantics issue that you called a "lie" that NOBODY agreed with.

In kicking up your fuss, you hypocritically did the EXACT same thing I did, and thus made yourself a hypocritical liar.

I've already explained this in 1308. I'm not going to repeat myself.

THEN - you felt that in an attempt to save Khamisa (SCUM), Chinaman (who you think is scum) voted me (who you think is scum) thus making him scum, but we should leave him alone?

What sense does that make? You thought a scum, tried to save another scum, by voting me (scum - for "lying")

*shrug* I suppose the Khamisa-Chinaman connection does imply that you are pro-Town. And I am of the opinion that strong links to known scum are better than strong individual scumminess -- hence why I'm voting for Chinaman. If Chinaman also flips scum then I would go for hohum next, actually (again, strong scum links trumps individual scumminess). If Chinaman flips town then I'd go back to you.

I personally think that what Chinaman did? A stunt like that, so close to deadline, is pretty ballsy (hence I don't think Chinaman is scum for it).

Well, now you're just WIFOMing the hell out yourself.

However - - if you indeed thought that Kham and Chinaman were scum, and it is naturally illogical for Chinaman to vote another scum to save Kham - - - why didn't you take your vote off me? - - wouldn't that logically make me town, and thus in danger of being a scumtool mislynch to save Kham?

I thought that you were scummier at the time. I still thought there were strong links between Khamisa and Chinaman; the difference is that Khamisa wasn't confirmed scum at the time, so the links weren't as strong as they are now. Does that make sense?

but then when he got flak for it changed back to hohum?

I take it this part means you didn't believe me when I say I did it on purpose and had all the intentions and followed through with unvoting him 3 FULL DAYS before deadline.

I don't, no.

@all: Is there anyone on the town list that shouldn't be there in your opinion (and why)? Don't say that I shouldn't be there, this is my list and I know my own alignment. I am more interested in your reads on those in my town list that I don't for sure know their alignments.

AndyTony should only be on there if you're scum. I have issues with the scum list of course, but you didn't ask about that.

With all the people expressing displeasure with me at the end of d2, I think you came into d3 thinking I would be the easiest wagon to start for a mislynch.

I've explained why you're scummy; I voted for you. That's not opportunistic, that's me voting for someone that I think is the scummiest.

If HoS is stronger than Fos and you felt like both hohum and I acted similarly but that I was more active about it, why are either me or hohum getting voted at all? Shouldn't the vote land on AT due to your own rankings of suspicion?

No. Here's how it works:
Vote>HoS>FoS from most suspicion to least suspicion.

[Alduskkel]

How does me flipping scum make hohum scum?

It increases my confidence in Khamisa links being scum tells.

I have done nothing but attack him since I have been posting in this game? Do you really think if we were both scum that I would bus him at the very start without a chance to talk to him?

Yes. Look at his playstyle right now. I think you're trying to cut off dead weight.

On the flip side, how does my flipping scum make AT (who pretty much headed the meta case on known scum) scummy?

It doesn't, I said the exact opposite in fact. Are you even reading my posts?

Seriously think about what you are saying and then answer these questions. If you see the illogical thoughts in your previous post, admit it and move on (if your town, which I highly doubt). Come up with something that makes sense or I'm jumping on the Ald wagon as I think you are stretching waaaaay too far to try and get a townie lynched.

Why are you threatening to vote for me? There's something off about that.

Btw, you still haven't explained what this interaction between me and kham is....because again, I don't think it "speaks for itself".

The inconsistencies and the pushing of AndyTony over Khamisa near the deadline, then the switching back to hohum after you got called scummy for it.

[Alduskkel]

I think Chinaman is newbscum and is trying to save Khamisa

. Her sudden inactiveness plus her

convenient switching near deadline

all point to that. I think the scum are

Khamisa, Chinaman

, and an unknown third who I strongly suspect is

AndyTony

. Right now I don't really care who we lynch between AndyTony and Khamisa,

they're both super scummy to me (I prefer AndyTony by a bit)

. Chinaman probably should be left relatively alone until Khamisa flips.

P.S.: No longer V/LA.

Pay attention to the very first bold. Your statement does

not

depend on Kham flipping.

It does. If Chinaman was protecting a Townie then that's all well and good. Thus, for it to be a scum tell, he would have to be protecting Scum (he was). Therefore my logic holds. Couldn't you have deduced this on your own?

You still suggest that person A is scum because they are trying to save person B by trying to kill person C (

and you basically say we are all scum

= poor logic, doesn't make sense - - -

or you would have to think that I'm naturally town for that logic to work and you failed to take your vote off me = bad logic

)

Bolded is wrong. Are you reading my posts either? With regards to the italics: I explained that in 1409.

Please address what's asked of you.

I am! Don't accuse me of not answering them; I'm very active, and I'm practically always answering your questions in every single post I make!

Your Chinaman, Kham, Me link does NOT - MAKE - SENSE

All three of us scum? doesn't make sense.

And I've already agreed with that. Please read my posts.

just Chinaman and Kham? that would make me town and you very anti town for not taking your vote off of me (if you truly believed I was a tool being used to save Kham)

Explained in 1409.

[Alduskkel]

@ald: what I meant to say is 'On the flip side, how does my flipping town make AT (who pretty much headed the meta case on known scum) scummy?

That's the question I would like answered.

It means that Khamisa links

aren't

a reliable scum tell, thus eliminating hohum from my suspect list, and putting AndyTony at the top.

@Ald: your explanations do not make sense and you seem to be incoherent.

I'd prefer that you actually back up this statement. Right now it's just slander.

I don't think that AT is saying you are calling kham, him, and myself the 3 scum in this game all at once, more saying that you have called us all scum in your different scenarios. At least that's the feel I'm getting ATM.

What's wrong with that? I consider different scenarios... that's scummy somehow? If I didn't I'd be tunneling.

Also, why can't I threaten to vote you? want me to just dive in head first and WIFOM vote you so you can use WIFOM to build your case on me?

??? How is my case based on WIFOM?

I said if you didn't answer logically and to my satisfaction, I would vote you. Thus far I don't believe you have.

Just because you don't

like

the answers I give doesn't mean they're illogical.

You only address things directed at you and have nothing to say as far as any other possibilities of scum.

Yeah, I don't answer for other people. This surprises you? With regards to the second part, what do you want me to say? MCD has good points against Kise but I don't think it's enough for any sort of major suspicion.

1.Why then, would you view us all three as scum? Please explain your logic and reasoning.

I don't.

2. If you did not believe all three were scum, why would you still suspect myself and Chinaman? It seems like you would be playing both sides to say you didn't believe all three of us to be scum (accusing Chinaman, in the circumstance you suggested, dictates all three of us were scum - what was the alternative?). Why then would Chinaman still be scummy?

You're a strong "backup" suspicion right now. If I'm right about a Khamisa-Chinaman-hohum scum team then obviously you're pro-Town. If Chinaman is missing from there then I'd go back to you.

I don't believe you'll truly have answers to these, and I think you'll slowly reveal yourself to have been simply opportunistic.

I just answered them so... lol.

Yes or no - did you believ Chinaman, Kham, myself to be scum all at the same time?

No.

you flat out stated you suspected all three of us

I suspected all 3 of you, but I didn't say that you were all scum together. Does that make sense?

[Alduskkel]

I think hohum 1407 is sarcastic, by the way.

[Alduskkel]

I think the confusion is arising the the tense of the words; I was regarding it as present tense, in which case I don't believe that you're all scum. In the past tense, I did. Is that clear?

[Alduskkel]

I thought Khamisa was scum (I was right). I think you might be scum. I think Chinaman has suspicious connections with Khamisa. Therefore, I thought all 3 of you were scum. I realized this didn't make much sense when I read 1396.

So yeah, it wasn't very logical. How is that scummy?

[Alduskkel]

What happened to Hohum Ald? He did after all have an FoS from you not too long ago. Is he off the hook now?

Since when did I let hohum off the hook?

If not hohum or AT as the 3 scum in your mind, who could be the 3rd?

Kise or pablito. MAYBE. Right now I think having 3 potential suspects (hohum, you, AndyTony) is enough with only 2 scum running around.

It's scummy because as Chinaman just pointed out - - what happened to hohum?

Neither of you are reading my posts, I take it? Because I've been saying since the beginning of Day 3 that I think the scum team is Khamisa-Chinaman-hohum. If you guys really think something "happened" to hohum then you're severely mistaken.

You agree it wasn't logical - as do I - - your decision wasn't based on logic,

it was based on impulse to survive and not look suspicious. You're not thinking for yourself, and you throw your suspicions in any direction you can and hope it will stick.

Bold:

[citation needed]

Do some scumhunting on your own (some good scumhunting - even outside of semantics) - so far, you're letting what everyone else says and think sway you.

So when I do scumhunt on my own you don't like it. But when I don't you accuse me of not contributing. Make up your mind.

I don't think you've had any original thoughts, cases, or contributions - you just want a lynch, Al, and that's scummy, because WE want to catch scum.

So you've completely forgotten about
1. My contribution to the Khamisa case.
2. My case on you.
3. My case on Chinaman.
4. My contribution to the Cephrir case.

I'm getting sick of you and Chinaman (primarily you) just saying things about me without backing them up. And please do some fact checking.

[Alduskkel]

Interesting question to AndyTony and Chinaman:
Okay, you think I'm scum. Who do you think is my scum partner? I don't think you guys are thinking beyond Alduskkel=scum.

[Alduskkel]

Sorry for triple posting, but I thought of another good question.
Just for AndyTony: You seem to value meta, since you used so much of it in taking out Khamisa-scum. Why haven't you checked my meta then?

[Alduskkel]

Aldus, given that you say you don't think Chinaman and AndyTony are scum together, can you list who you think are the most likely scum partners for each?

Chinaman: hohum.
AndyTony: I'll have to think about this one, actually. Maybe lobstermania or pablito (see below).

I think that would go a long way to clearing up your opinions here. Do you see any reasonable scenario where they are both town?

I guess. I'm not 100% certain that at least one of them is scum. If neither are scum then I'd think that the scum were in lobstermania (he's a lurker), pablito (semi-lurker, not very good links with Khamisa), and hohum (bad links with Khamisa).

Regarding hohum, if he is unwilling to participate or replace out, what does everyone think we should do with him? Personally I think it's best to get rid of him sooner rather than later, even though I realize it may be a sub-optimal (though probably still better than random) lynch.

I guess lynch him. I do think he is suspicious, although he's kind of a distant third on my suspect list. He doesn't seem like a good player to keep to lylo imo.

we shouldn't be thinking beyond "Aldul=scum" because when you find scum you lynch them. The next day is for scum hunting.

We should always be thinking ahead. And ALL days are for scum hunting. Besides, even going by the logic "scum hunting happens the day after you lynch scum" then we should be scum hunting today because of Khamisa's flip.

Vote, Aldul

It's rather opportunistic to vote for me when it puts me in the lead and I've got two players hounding me like dogs. Not to mention the fact that you seem to be voting for me based on a disagreement about game theory.

Never let scum live.

What's the point of saying this?

[Alduskkel]

hohum: Why do you agree with it? What's wrong with my responses? Who do YOU think is my scum partner? Given your earlier suspicions, do you think it's AndyTony? If so, why do you think he's bussing me? If not, then who?

AndyTony: You accuse me of not having thoughts of my own or contributing. Isn't that what hohum is doing right now?

[Alduskkel]

And you didn't answer my question in 1441. What was the point of saying that?

[Alduskkel]

Triple post again. Sorry.

hohum: Why have you chosen to start participating again?

[Alduskkel]

Chinaman and AndyTony, answer my questions in 1435 and 1436.

That case was your semantic battle. It was pathetic and cheap and in no way proved I was scum - - furthermore, the very example you tried to point at and call me a "liar" for - - you did the EXACT SAME THING - - you made a case on me, and became a hypocrite for having the same evidence on you, you nutbar lol

I've already explained why what I did isn't the same. You can keep saying they are the same thing, but it doesn't make it true.

The rest of 1447: You can interpret it that way. But try looking at it with the view that I'm pro-Town, won't you? It feels like you have already determined that I'm scum and are just interpreting my behavior to match that idea.

If you thought Khamisa was scum, why would you vote for anyone else?

Wow. Read the thread. I thought AndyTony was scummier.

If you were town, why didn't you make the same move ESPECIALLY since you thought kham was scum (as well as AT...which btw, makes even less sense).

I thought it was pretty clear that Khamisa was going to be lynched. I wanted it to be clear who I thought was scummiest though. I mean, if someone who I didn't suspect that much was on the verge of being lynched and the only way to save them was to switch to Khamisa then I would have. But it wasn't necessary, since Khamisa got lynched.

Along the same lines, if you thought kham was scum, why did you think AT was her partner? He was the one heading the main meta case against her. If she flipped town, yeah, sure, go after AT....but she didn't. Why do you still believe AT could be scum? Do you think he bussed her d2? That would be the ONLY explanation...and not a very good one imo.

I already stated that it was kind of silly of me to think that Khamisa-AndyTony would really work that well.

[Alduskkel]

I'm actually pretty sure that no matter what I say at this point AndyTony will not change his opinion of me.

[Alduskkel]

Ald has almost no notes on my sheet about going after Khamisa {if I missed something, please correct me, this is a lot of posts to try and breakdown}

Really? I felt like I went after Khamisa in 454, 550, and 661.

It all gets weirder when Ald {who specifically disects everything in this game from hohum's Vote on him in ~p756 to the AT semantics debate ~page 54} doesn't even mention her reaction, let alone her seemingly antiTown/Scum read on him.

It seemed pretty minor to me. IIRC, she said it was merely "leaning" that way, i.e., a minor suspicion.

Completely unrelated to the Khamisa case, I noticed that the section where AT is being accused of coaching Kise {p727}, Ald immediately agrees {p728}. But when hohum makes a similar move in p816, Ald gets weird about it asking why hohum's telling him 'how to avoid looking scummy'. Again, I don't know if it means anything, but it left me scratching my head.

What do you mean, "I got weird about it"?

[Alduskkel]

I've been pretty sick lately so I'm not really up to posting content -- sorry. I should be better in a few days.

[Alduskkel]

AndyTony: Please reply to 1435 and 1436.

d3x 1471: All I can say is that I was expressing suspicion of Khamisa in those quotes. There isn't much else I can say -- the quotes are there, the facts are in. You're free to interpret.

He tried to build a 'case' on me by saying I had some sort of interactions with Kham that were scum tells which basically boiled down to 'people didn't like chinaman's actions end of d2, I think we can get him lynched'. Waaay too opportunistic.

Still think that?

He defends himself (poorly) and now has kinda went into the shadows.

So all of a sudden it's scummy to be sick?

[Alduskkel]

I wasn't talking about pablito being sick at all.

[Alduskkel]

There's not much to say. Although I'm pretty sure I never unHoS'd AndyTony, thus I can't have backtracked on it.

[Alduskkel]

@ Al

There's not much to say. Although I'm pretty sure I never unHoS'd AndyTony, thus I can't have backtracked on it.

Then please explain the meaning of this post. Sure seems that you think AT's town now, and are concerned that he won't change his opinion of you. Kind of a weird post if you still thought he was scum there.

I'm actually pretty sure that no matter what I say at this point AndyTony will not change his opinion of me.

Well, first off, the second quote is more me saying "This is futile," than "AT is pro-Town,". In the event that Chinaman were to flip Town I would be highly suspicious of AT, thus the FoS. I don't think Chinaman is Town, so you could say I think AT is pro-Town and be right. The HoS is there in the event that I'm wrong about CM.

@CM 1533: OK then. Glad that's sorted out.

[heavily snipped]Ald, Pablito, or Hohum

[also snipped]I throroughly enjoy how you're placing the onus upon the town to decide your vote. It's a great way to externalize the blame if any of us turn up town. Which I know for a fact at least one of us will. I wonder which one. I wouldn't be surprised if a second one shows up town as well. I won't dare go far as to say that all three of us would, because that's not likely.

Do you think it's me or hohum who's likely to be Town? Why do you think it's unlikely that we're both pro-Town? Why are you being so vague about this?

P.S.: No, don't get replaced, I think your posts are good. (inb4 AT/CM say "ZOMG buddying")

[Alduskkel]

There's not much to say. Although I'm pretty sure I never unHoS'd AndyTony, thus I can't have backtracked on it.

Then please explain the meaning of this post. Sure seems that you think AT's town now, and are concerned that he won't change his opinion of you. Kind of a weird post if you still thought he was scum there.

I'm actually pretty sure that no matter what I say at this point AndyTony will not change his opinion of me.

Well, first off, the second quote is more me saying "This is futile," than "AT is pro-Town,". In the event that Chinaman were to flip Town I would be highly suspicious of AT, thus the FoS. I don't think Chinaman is Town, so you could say I think AT is pro-Town and be right. The HoS is there in the event that I'm wrong about CM.

That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard....FoSing people down the line, dependent on how others flip?

I don't see what's wrong with it. Are you actually going to back up your opinion with reasons?

P.S.: No, don't get replaced, I think your posts are good. (inb4 AT/CM say "ZOMG buddying")

I don't want to see pablito replaced either, but by saying that his posts are 'good,' are you saying that you have a town read on him?

Yes.

Well, first off, the second quote is more me saying "This is futile," than "AT is pro-Town,". In the event that Chinaman were to flip Town I would be highly suspicious of AT, thus the FoS. I don't think Chinaman is Town, so you could say I think AT is pro-Town and be right. The HoS is there in the event that I'm wrong about CM.

That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard....FoSing people down the line, dependent on how others flip?

It's part of his attempt to not piss anyone off by flip flopping again. It's going to escalate where he will think everyone is scum and town at the same time - - I don't think he knows what's going on at this point. He admitted the poor logic himself. There was no town motivated thought at the end of D2 - there was no logic - there was no sense.

It only makes sense if he were scum, IMO as I expressed earlier.

You do realize how much you're tunneling, right? I guess you don't, that's the whole problem. You form scum tells around the idea that I'm scum -- not the other way around. At this point you're just exaggerating what I've said to absurd levels.

[Alduskkel]

I'm the Jailkeeper. I know I'm not at L-1, but I'm pretty sure that when MCD gets back he'll vote for me and hohum is likely to as well. I'm tired of watching you guys waste time thinking I'm scum when I can just end it all in one sentence.

I targeted AndyTony Night 1. I was already suspicious of him but if he was pro-Town I could see scum offing him for being active and influential. I targeted d3x Night 2 because he was pretty active and obviously pro-Town.

[Alduskkel]

If I was scum I would have claimed Doctor. That way, when I was counter claimed, the Doctor would be roleblocked by the Jailkeeper and the Jailkeeper is stuck protecting the Doctor -- thus negating both power roles. Whereas if I out the real JK, the Doc just protects the JK and the JK functions normally -- thus only nullifying one power role.

[Alduskkel]

Why have his last three posts been clear, intelligent, and in some regard insightful

Last

three

posts? Why do you like 1545 so much?

[Alduskkel]

Okay, 'last

few

posts' better?

You're almost becoming amusing.

It's a valid point imo.

So Al, do you feel your claim clears all slates?

Very much so.

No more light to shed on 1426?

Until the real Jailkeeper dies (which is impossible) or I'm counterclaimed I don't see the need to defend myself. I'm pretty sure my claim confirms me.

You've failed to display towny logic for the end of D2. And you've yet to display towny logic for this D3.

Who are your suspects? Where are your cases? Where's your investigating? Were you only interested in pointing at multiple people and saying "scum" while opportunistically

following

cases all day?

1. Chinaman and hohum. 2. I've made a case on Chinaman. 3. I'm following cases? I'm the only one voting for Chinaman. That hardly constitutes "following".

Ald - maybe you'll get lucky and there won't be a CC because the real jailkeeper thinks it's not worth being a night target while there are numerous townies to save (if you're scum, that is, seeing as you would prioritize nailing the jailkeeper since he has two abilities)

I've already explained why it would be better for me to claim Doctor if I was scum.

or maybe you'll get lucky and you're indeed JK and there's no CC, and you get to continue making zero sense while following any wagon that'll take you.

Well...

[Alduskkel]

EBWOP:

You've failed to display towny logic for the end of D2. And you've yet to display towny logic for this D3.

This is an AndyTony quote that I accidentally didn't put in quote tags. Sorry.

[Alduskkel]

Yes - you are the only one voting him. Which kind of suggests other people don't think much of the "case", do they?

This is just fail logic -- just because other people don't like that case doesn't mean Chinaman isn't scum.

Why are you voting him? (do tell me in a clear way)

1. Chinaman was inconsistent towards the end of Day 2.
2. Chinaman had very suspicious behavior towards Khamisa. Notice how he voted for you (putting you in the lead), but then switched back to hohum when he got flak for it.

You say you suspect him and hohum - why the hand of suspicion?

On you? Because if Chinaman is town then I have to go back to the drawing board. And the drawing board says you're scum, thus the HoS.

1. Why did you think that scum chinaman was trying to save scum khamisa by having scum me lynched?

(Note: I don't think this is true now, but you're asking me why I

did

so I'll answer.) I wasn't thinking it through, but basically I thought you, Chinaman, and Khamisa were scum, so I formed a theory around that; a theory which sucked, I'll admit.

3. What are your standing queries with China?

None. Chinaman can't answer my accusations (she's admitted to both the inconsistencies and the suspicious vote hopping onto you just before deadline is a FACT) so there's not much more for me to say. Though now that you mention it I should probably do a PBPA of Zer0ph34r/Chinaman.

4. You've more than once made the statement regarding claiming JK instead of Doc - - - you're proving further my sentiment that it is precisely WHY you did so - - just so you could point and say "see? scum wouldn't do that" - - - what I'm saying is that you were on the line, you had your back against the wall and was at L-2 - - so no, scum wouldn't have played a game like that, scum would want to appear as towny as possible - I'm saying it's possible you CHOSE the opposite route.

Do you really think I went into this, as scum, thinking that I wouldn't be counterclaimed? Because I am 99% sure that unless it's hohum or pablito counterclaiming, I will be lynched very quickly if someone counterclaims me. And then it'd be 1 scum vs. 7 townies, quite possibly with both power roles still around. Those are terrible scum team odds.

And besides - JK is more valuable than Doc. JK is essentially a doc, but can ALSO prevent a NK. They have TWICE the town protecting potential (ie. if they target scum one night, they prevent a NK; if they target a towny, they are protecting someone - - - - - a doc can't do that: if a doc targets scum, they're protected and able to NK)

Nope, fail. The Jailkeeper can also roleblock the Doctor, which is generally bad. Plus the odds of preventing a kill by roleblocking a scum are minimal -- even if you target scum, you have to somehow be lucky enough to target the scum making the kill.

So yeah - I think it's very possible that scum would value killing the JK more so than the doc, so try again, Ald.

Except that scum can't kill an outed JK. The Doc will protect them. The only way to kill the JK is by lynching then.

Now, do you really expect someone counterclaiming JK is going to be lynched over me? The only 2 people I'd have a chance against are hohum and pablito.

As Scum:
you were at L-2 and there wer players on their way to this board who would have likely voted you (even hohum, if he wanted to distance) and you knew it - - hell, you even said he would (oh NOW you have faith he'll contribute...)

I didn't say that at all. When I said hohum might come in and vote for me, I was thinking he'd make a post like, "vote: alduskkel die scum die" or something with about the same content.

Claimin? Two things could happen.

1. The person CC's you, and you've managed to go down while outting a power role (now you also have to decide which PR you want!)

In which case I'd claim Doctor, for reasons I've explained before.

2. The person doesn't claim (too early; not worth the risk; they can have justice done by lynching your scummy ass with an existing VALID case and not comprimise their role, etc) and you get a free ride, hiding behind your claim instead of owning up to your scum slips (like you've already done)

So, you either score a PR for your buddy, or you get a free ride! How could you lose, right?

By accidentally killing the real Jailkeeper, obviously.

----------
I agree with Kdub. I can't believe how ridiculous it is watching AndyTony attack an uncounterclaimed power role in an open setup.

[Alduskkel]

Argh how do AndyTony quotes keep getting out of quote boxes?

Claimin? Two things could happen.

[Alduskkel]

Why are you voting him? (do tell me in a clear way)

1. Chinaman was inconsistent towards the end of Day 2.
2. Chinaman had very suspicious behavior towards Khamisa. Notice how he voted for you (putting you in the lead), but then switched back to hohum when he got flak for it.

Hell, if those are your reasons, you would be voting Pablito as well. In fact, you would be voting yourself!

Chinaman came in at the last minute - how do you truly know his consistencies, Ald?

You're the one that seemed to have the weird relationship with Kham when you tried to save her by fueling a wagon on me.

You're giving him hell for switching a vote? You can't be serious. You flip flopped like mad, and then when you got hell for it, you started flip flopping while maintaining suspicion on the person you were moving off of (hence your unusual and illogical build up of suspects which resulted in your terrible logic D2)

Let's go over this:
1. You say that I'm scummy at least partly for my interactions with Khamisa and inconsistencies etc.
2. Chinaman has also done these things.
3. Therefore, you must think Chinaman is scummy.
Except that you don't. What gives?

You followed cases, hardly investigated with original thought, and the wagon you started on me? It was garbage!

That has yet to be proved.

You say you suspect him and hohum - why the hand of suspicion?

On you? Because if Chinaman is town then I have to go back to the drawing board. And the drawing board says you're scum, thus the HoS.

Prove you actually have that drawing board and aren't talking out of your hat. On that board, what suggests I'm scum (give evidence through reasoning, relationships, etc)

1. You lied.
2. You tried to shorten the deadline.
3. When I called you on lying, you reacted scummily, ignoring the question until I made clear I wouldn't drop it.
4. You're insanely tunneled on an unCCed power role, which is anti-Town.

I think you're just trying to cover every base you can - suspect as many people as possible and only vote the one other people "agree" or "inspire" - - that way you're not committing to the responsibility of a lynch, and the mistakes a mislynch will result in

I'm suspicious of 2-3 people. We have 2 scum. Need I say more?

1. Why did you think that scum chinaman was trying to save scum khamisa by having scum me lynched?

(Note: I don't think this is true now, but you're asking me why I

did

so I'll answer.) I wasn't thinking it through, but basically I thought you, Chinaman, and Khamisa were scum, so I formed a theory around that; a theory which sucked, I'll admit.

You thought I was scum because I "lied" (the way you did several posts after, cough, hypocrite)

I have proved that you unambiguously lied -- I accidentally lied because you said something ambiguous that could be interpreted in multiple ways. If you think they're the same, you're sadly mistaken.

You thought Kham was scum because, well, hell, everyone else did

No... I agreed with the meta case.

See, your answer adds more confusion and doesn't clarify. You say that the poor logic was a result of thinking we were all scum, when in reality, it's the other way around - - The only way China could have been scum was if I were town - - so explain that logic, not the circumstance, Ald

I can't, it was illogical. I've been saying that this entire time. I've already explained that I thought all 3 of you were scum beforehand, so I didn't investigate relationships that much. That was a mistake. I've admitted to that. What you can't explain is how this is a scum tell. Not being logical =/= scum.

3. What are your standing queries with China?

None. Chinaman can't answer my accusations (she's admitted to both the inconsistencies and the suspicious vote hopping onto you just before deadline is a FACT) so there's not much more for me to say. Though now that you mention it I should probably do a PBPA of Zer0ph34r/Chinaman.

Nothing left to ask? Is that because nobody else has said it first to inspire you?

No, it's because of the reasons YOU JUST QUOTED.

You flip flopped, made a poor wagon, and admitted to terrible logic that had no pro town angle - - - that's worse off than anything you're throwing at China, so there should be no problem with votes on you - - oh wait, the claim you're hiding behind.

Don't twist my words. I've admitted to terrible logic that actually has a pro-Town angle.

There's no reason not to believe my claim.

4. You've more than once made the statement regarding claiming JK instead of Doc - - - you're proving further my sentiment that it is precisely WHY you did so - - just so you could point and say "see? scum wouldn't do that" - - - what I'm saying is that you were on the line, you had your back against the wall and was at L-2 - - so no, scum wouldn't have played a game like that, scum would want to appear as towny as possible - I'm saying it's possible you CHOSE the opposite route.

Do you really think I went into this, as scum, thinking that I wouldn't be counterclaimed?

No, I clearly listed how you went into it thinking either nobody would claim (score) or that someone would cc and you'd score a PR.

I wouldn't score a power role. The Doctor would protect the Jailkeeper and you guys would have 1 confirmed innocent (the JK), both power roles, about 3-4 mislynches, and only 1 scum left to hunt. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go for those odds.

And besides - JK is more valuable than Doc. JK is essentially a doc, but can ALSO prevent a NK. They have TWICE the town protecting potential (ie. if they target scum one night, they prevent a NK; if they target a towny, they are protecting someone - - - - - a doc can't do that: if a doc targets scum, they're protected and able to NK)

Nope, fail. The Jailkeeper can also roleblock the Doctor, which is generally bad. Plus the odds of preventing a kill by roleblocking a scum are minimal -- even if you target scum, you have to somehow be lucky enough to target the scum making the kill.

Doctor -
Targets a towny = towny is protected that night
Targets a scum = scum is protected and can initiate NK

JK-
Targets a towny = towny is protected that night
Targets a doc = Doc is protected (blocked, but protected, making the night no different than if we had a single doctor - someone is protected)
Targets a scum = scum is protected and cannot NK

JK is more of a burden on scum than a doc.

Not really. As I've said the odds of the JK (me) targeting the scum making the kill are minimal, and roleblocking the Doctor is pretty bad.

Of course they would want him gone.

Except that they couldn't get rid of him, because the Doctor would be protecting him.

So yeah - I think it's very possible that scum would value killing the JK more so than the doc, so try again, Ald.

Except that scum can't kill an outed JK. The Doc will protect them. The only way to kill the JK is by lynching then.

Unless JK protects the doc, thus blocking him, and then JK gets NK'd.

And the odds of that are...? You're just grasping at straws here. This scenario requires two highly unlikely (in conjunction with each other) things to happen.
1. The Jailkeeper targets the Doctor.
2. The Scum target the Jailkeeper.
#1 is unlikely enough that Scum won't do #2.

And when PR targets are often based on higher profile players, or players suspected most likely town - - the pickings are slim and that makes it possible.

For all we know hohum could be the Doctor. Activeness =/= power role.

Now, do you really expect someone counterclaiming JK is going to be lynched over me? The only 2 people I'd have a chance against are hohum and pablito.

What are you trying to say here?

I'm saying that unless it's hohum or pablito counterclaiming, if I'm counterclaimed I'd be lynched before you could type "witty phrase."

As Scum:
you were at L-2 and there wer players on their way to this board who would have likely voted you (even hohum, if he wanted to distance) and you knew it - - hell, you even said he would (oh NOW you have faith he'll contribute...)

I didn't say that at all. When I said hohum might come in and vote for me, I was thinking he'd make a post like, "vote: alduskkel die scum die" or something with about the same content.

So you thought you'd be dead because he would tell us to make it so?

Because we've been listening to him thus far and invest a lot of time in statements he makes like that?

No, MCD would vote for me, then hohum would hammer. That's what I thought could happen. No need for hohum to convince anyone in that scenario.

I'm not attacking an unCC'd PR

Oh yes you are. Don't lie.

And the circumstance is that you are not PROVEN to be the JK.

But it's more than likely that I am indeed the real JK.

JK is more of a burden on scum than a doc.

This is true, but scum would benefit more from outing the doctor. The only way to protect the doctor would involve the JK roleblocking him, giving the town essentially no protective roles. If the JK gets outed, the doctor protects him and the JK still has a protection to use.

I reiterate the request for a counterclaim if it exists. If we don't lynch Ald and someone claims JK later on, I will NOT believe that person's claim.

THANK YOU. I've been saying this the entire time since I've claimed but AndyTunneler (see what I did there?) won't take it from me.

Happy scumday Ald!

Thanks! Hard to believe I've been here for an entire year.

@All
- There is surely a precedent on this board where a mod can replace a person if we all ask for it and they are complacent. This player's complacency and disregard for the game could hurt the town. He makes perfect sense as scum to me, but there's that little insecure doubt in the back of my mind that could have been remedied with more posting to sift through from this guy.

At this point, he has in no way cleared himself for his D2 actions. That makes him scum.

He has been given fair chances to contribute and turn things around in case he was misunderstood town who is simply accidentally hurting us. At this point, it is no accident and he is choosing to be a jerk and purse his lips. That's as good as scum sitting back and laughing at us as far as I'm concerned (since we're not lynching him).

I would like to see action taken in the direction of our scum candidates. There is no heat right now, and I think that this D3 is far too comfortable for them.

You're talking about hohum here, right?

1. CC Ald and/or lynch him

Where's the "Ald isn't CC'd and we leave him alone" option? Also, why is there a "CC Ald or lynch him" possibility here? That makes it sound like I'd get CC'd and then not lynched -- which is unlikely to say the least.

[Alduskkel]

Sorry for the wall.

[Alduskkel]

Fuck no I'm not saying hohum is the Doctor. I'm saying he COULD be. That is obviously true. I was just saying that activeness =/= power role.

Haven't even read the other stuff, just had to say that right now since it's a gigantic misinterpretation of what I've said.

[Alduskkel]

Previous post was a response to 1596.

Name calling, diverting, ignorance, and backtracking. Nice.

Accusations that aren't backed up at all. Nice.

Then you said hohum wouldn't vote you and that he would just start yelling things like "moar votes on Ald"

I never said this -- you're just blatantly lying now.

You admitted to lying up above.

I admitted to misinterpreting an ambiguous statement -- thanks for strawmanning me though.

It's very possible for a JK to target a doctor.

It's very possible for a JK to target a scum.

Let it settle in there, Al.

OK. I don't see your point, but OK.

2. I tried to shorten the deadline? / You wanted it shortened as well! The moment I suggested it and gave a VERY valid reason as to why it would be reasonable, you followed me like you've been doing in general the last couple of days

Just because I initially agreed with it doesn't mean it isn't scummy.

4. I'm attacking an UnCC'd Power role? / Not everyone had come back to the thread about this and fully addressed it, Ald

News Flash: I claimed Jailkeeper. No one has said, "No, I'm the Jailkeeper!" That makes me an UnCC'd power role, who you are attacking.

How is your D2 logic scummy, you ask?

I've given that answer in detail multiple times. It bit you in the ass because in attempting to not flip flop, save Kham/divert attention, and secure early suspicions on a D3 candidate w/o being called a follower (even though you were following suspecting him after other people lol) - - you ended up looking foolish with suspicions on three people BASED on a scenario that COULDN'T work.

You could NOT have thought China was scum if you thought I was - meaning you weren't scum hunting or using logic to find a candidate, you were chasing a lynch and securing suspicions - that is SCUMMY.

It makes perfect scum sense and helps you in three ways!
1. You wouldn't have been flip flopping in a bold and way that you'd be called out
2. You buy Kham breathing room and divert
3. You secure early, followed suspicions on a D3 candidate

But oops. The poor logic proves those are the things you cared about.

What I'm asking of YOU is how it makes sense for a towny to do that. It makes PERFECT scum sense in THREE DIFFERENT WAYS that would benefit a scum.

I've already explained how Town-me could do that.

You now suspect hohum could be doctor because of his game activity.

This statement couldn't be more wrong.

Please elaborate and let us know who your "backup" two are (your scumhunting needs to be read with popcorn.)

The backup pair (the main pair being Chinaman-hohum) would be you and someone else,

MAYBE

DRK or Kise.

Kise, hohum, and pablito have not come around to prove or disprove the claim

MCD - you've yet to hear anything definitive from hohum, kise, and pablito

More lying. Kise has directly stated that he is not the Jailkeeper. Either you're not even reading the game or you're just trying to cast even more doubt on my claim.

Seems like AndyTony really wants to counterclaim me without counterclaiming me. Let the record show though that he has stated that he thinks that it's better play for the real JK to CC me if I'm lying, so if he tries to CC later it'll be clear that he's just opportunistically pulling it out of his ass.

[Alduskkel]

hohum, are you the Jailkeeper or not?

(asked for AndyTony's sake)

[Alduskkel]

pablito, I presume you are also not going to CC me?

That should confirm me then.

[Alduskkel]

8 - He responds to Kdub's reaction to his seeming overconfidence and says he's be willing to go after other possible targets. Interestingly though, even though Kdub pointed out that Pitstop stopped posting after the focus went away from her, TC mentioned that Ceph and ODDin stopped attacking Pitstop, without considering that Pitstop wasn't posting. That+possible chainsaw defense from TC makes Pitstop/d3x look bad if TC/pablito is scum.

From your description it actually makes it sound like TC was reminding ODDin and Cephrir to keep attacking Pitstop. Doesn't that mean that it actually makes d3x look good if pablito is pro-Town?

[Alduskkel]

8 - He responds to Kdub's reaction to his seeming overconfidence and says he's be willing to go after other possible targets. Interestingly though, even though Kdub pointed out that Pitstop stopped posting after the focus went away from her, TC mentioned that Ceph and ODDin stopped attacking Pitstop, without considering that Pitstop wasn't posting. That+possible chainsaw defense from TC makes Pitstop/d3x look bad if TC/pablito is scum.

From your description it actually makes it sound like TC was reminding ODDin and Cephrir to keep attacking Pitstop. Doesn't that mean that it actually makes d3x look good if pablito is pro-Town?

Correction: if pablito is

scum

.

[Alduskkel]

You know, I was going to come in here and post, "AndyTony's case on Kise is BS, here's why..." but then I realized I'd just be handing Kise a valid defense which he doesn't seem to be picking up on...

And that's interesting. Not exactly sure what it says about AndyTony/Kise yet though.

Anyway, I could defend myself against AndyTony's accusations to me, but that would defeat the purpose of my claim, which was to get us to stop wasting time on that. Suffice it to say that I do have a defense though, which I'll give if people really want me to.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but the timing of hohum asking for a replacement seems really off to me. I mean, here he is, having refused replacement several times before, and when he DOES ask for replacement:
1. The top mislynch bandwagon, me, has totally disappeared.
2. He's now the top lynch candidate.
3. There are only 2 scum left and
4. Both power roles are still alive, and one has been confirmed but still can't be killed.

So if hohum is scum then he might have replaced out of what he thought was a lost game. The only problem is, this is somewhat unscrupulous and I'd like to think hohum WOULDN'T do this sort of thing under any circumstance.

Thoughts?

[Alduskkel]

Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

. I prefer his lynch to pablito's.

@AllWhat kind of holes are there in my Kise observations that make them not worth discussing?

Don't answer this. You'll hand Kise a defense; if he doesn't have one then not answering for him could expose him as scum (possibly).

Chinaman: A list? Okay.
Town: Myself, AndyTony (individually very scummy, but his links with Khamisa and Chinaman indicate that he's pro-Town), Kdub, d3x, MCD (I think we can agree on those).
Middling: pablito (leaning Town), Kise, DeathRowKitty (both kind of nullish for me).
Scum: Chinaman, dcorbe.

I'm going to work on a post explaining the pablito Town read now.

[Alduskkel]

Wait, what? Not that I don't believe you Kdub (I do, actually), but how do you know dcorbe is hohum's alt?

If hohum switched accounts to avoid votes then I think that's a pretty clear indication that he's scum making a desperate last bid to avoid being lynched.

AndyTony raises good points against Kise (when I said his case was BS, I was talking about a different part of the case), but I have a hard time believing that a Kise lynch is going to happen today.

[Alduskkel]

Also, I don't like Chinaman 1690. It seems like an attempt to discredit me, and I can practically feel him wanting to call me scum(my) but being frustrated at being unable to do so.

[Alduskkel]

You probably started composing that before my post 1704, so I don't mind you not responding to it there, but could you respond to it now?

[Alduskkel]

That's L-1.

And did Chinaman log off INSTANTLY once he posted that? What gives?

[Alduskkel]

Would you mind linking to that?

[Alduskkel]

Nevermind, found it.

[Alduskkel]

Looks like d3x will be the hammerer.

[Alduskkel]

It's always weird learning what users actually look like around here.

[Alduskkel]

Lol! Please read before you post DRK.

[Alduskkel]

Oh, missed the extra minus. XD