Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[Cephrir]

/confirm

[Cephrir]

Vote: dejkha

For not liking Survivor

[Cephrir]

That's a contradiction! MadCrawdad has caught scum! Sorry ODDin, nice attempted bus of Zerophear, too bad it backfired. One to go.

[Cephrir]

Hohum is practically planning the lynch of a player we have barely spoken to. He said his conditions for suicide rested on poor logic - we all know what that means because we've all had at least one game where everyone seemed insane lol

Let's cross that bridge when we come to it and not plan a lynch as fast as hohum is chsing it - - I'd rather chase scum and this person we're discussing hasn't done anything in this game that is scummy yet.

Flip out much? He's just been saying that he might be inclined to lynch zero if he claimed scum which is perfectly reasonable. He's not "planning a lynch".

"If he claims scum we lynch him" doesn't jive with me - - circumstances will always be different, and I'm just voicing an opinion because I've seen it happen in the past and the town goes belly up for it

I didn't see that it was that definite. And lynching claimed scum 100% of the time is definitely a policy for some players.

Yes I'm being redundant, that's what I do when I'm a few pages behind

[Cephrir]

The above statement doesn't talk about scum much, does it?

Looks to me like a player that told us he believed in utility lynches was happy to lynch a player for being his definition of stupid and emotional.

I'm pretty sure he's already said what he meant by this.

That was your first post since the RVS - let's hope they don't get any worse. Happy reading.

Well I could have said even more things that have already been said, would that be better?

[Cephrir]

God, you're critical. I did read the thread.

[Cephrir]

This post is to remind me to mention something in a few days and/or a lot of pages.

[Cephrir]

Apparently commenting on AT's gameplay is offensive to him. I'll be sure to keep that in mind.

[Cephrir]

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir

What made you think that AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target?

Well, it's pretty common that the guy who starts talking a lot and who several people are loudly disagreeing with ends up being the D1 lynch. And as the only one who had said anything really controversial, he was pretty much the only one anyone could consider building a case on. If he continued like that and nothing else significant came up he probably would have been lynched today IMO.

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir

What made you think that AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target?

Well, it's pretty common that the guy who starts talking a lot and who several people are loudly disagreeing with ends up being the D1 lynch. And as the only one who had said anything really controversial, he was pretty much the only one anyone could consider building a case on. If he continued like that and nothing else significant came up he probably would have been lynched today IMO.

Did you think that any of those 'loudly disagreeing' with AT were making particularly compelling arguments?

At first, yes. I don't think I would have actually lynched him at that point and maybe the rest of us mostly feel the same way, but the arguments wouldn't have to be that great if they were the only ones... D1 lynches are often subpar and there comes a point after which people tend to accept anything remotely reasonable.

[Cephrir]

I truly don't feel you agree with ODD, but are simply looking for an excuse to hop on the bandwagon and possibly get me lynched. My vote on AT was said to be an 'easy lynch', but this seems like much more of an easy lynch to me.

And this is based on what? Also, you'd probably say this about any case on you.

[Cephrir]

Holy tunnelvision, Batman.

This post raised my suspicions.

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

For starters AT wasn't looking anything like a D1 lynch target IMO. Such an easy target that he had no votes sitting on him... right.

That's your opinion. I don't agree. Why does it matter?

@Cephrir

What made you think that AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target?

Well, it's pretty common that the guy who starts talking a lot and who several people are loudly disagreeing with ends up being the D1 lynch. And as the only one who had said anything really controversial, he was pretty much the only one anyone could consider building a case on. If he continued like that and nothing else significant came up he probably would have been lynched today IMO.

With 2.5 weeks of RL time left until a lynch it is 100% inevitable (and your responsibility as a townsperson) to make sure something more significant than that to come out - and what do you know it has... you.

I think your vote for Pitstop is more about you trying to push a wagon rather than preventing AT from being an easy lynch target - the time to take that stand is around L-2 rather than L-7.

One person can't necessarily stop a bandwagon once it gets rolling, and doing so when you don't know the target's alignment for certain can be stupid. And here we see you getting in the mindset that I'm scum and for the rest of this post are asking yourself "Why would scum do this?" instead of "Is this scummy?"

I'm not preventing AT from being anything, I was just pointing out that I thought Pitstop was trying to turn it into a wagon. D1 bandwagons have a tendency to go through no matter what because people don't care enough, so it's best that it was pointed out now rather than when it might be too late. Also, what about my post makes you think its purpose is "to push a wagon" (which by the way isn't necessarily scummy) and not legitimate suspicion? Oh right, it's the part where you've already decided to label me as scum. You knew before you started writing this post that you were going to vote me at the end of it and didn't stop to consider that your logic isn't voteworthy.

You did the maths and thought: dejkha + ODDin + yourself + sumbuddy 1 + scumbuddy 2 + 2 more townies = lynch. Those two townies you had yourself down for were probably MadCrawdad who has shown a bit of interest in Pitstop already and potentially AndyTony. I do realise the flaws with my maths is that some of those people could be the same (ODDin = scumbuddy wouldn't surprise me at all) - but roping in another townie whose main concern was not getting lynched themselves wouldn't be too hard IMO.

You've never played as scum before have you? That's not how it works. Also, again, you're assuming I'm scum. And, apparently, that all scum are always on all townie wagons, and that Pitstop is town.

You have well and truly taken over the wagon though trying to poo poo the notion that this is a bandwagon at all:

I truly don't feel you agree with ODD, but are simply looking for an excuse to hop on the bandwagon and possibly get me lynched. My vote on AT was said to be an 'easy lynch', but this seems like much more of an easy lynch to me.

And this is based on what? Also, you'd probably say this about any case on you.

Feel free to show me what your comment and my post have in common because I don't see "this is not a bandwagon" in there. Incidentally, it isn't, given that it's currently two votes big, but I didn't say that.

Finally the only reason for statements like this so far out from the deadline seems all about conditioning the town resign itself to making a subpar vote on Day 1.

D1 lynches are often subpar and there comes a point after which people tend to accept anything remotely reasonable.

Excuse me for speaking the truth.

P.S. You're supposed to vote for people based on whether they're scummy, not whether they're the person you decided to quote lots of times and make vaguely suspicious and mostly irrelevant statements about.

[Cephrir]

Dude, quickly following up ODDin with:

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

is twenty times closer to "pushing a potential wagon" than anything Pitstop did. The difference between not even voting for someone and being the third man in for example. If you are going to ping Pitstop for "pushing a potential wagon" you should have no problems with me doing the same to you.

Voting is visible. Pushing a wagon and being on it are not the same thing, Pitstop was supporting the wagon idea without actually putting anything concrete on it that could be traced back to him. Last sentence makes zero sense. Also, why the hell is everyone all over me about this vote and not ODDin?

Also the tone of your response is one more of discrediting me to the town rather than defending yourself against very valid questioning.

Very valid questioning? You didn't even ask me any questions! That was an outright attack, how do you expect me to respond? Would you prefer I not try to disprove your attack? Oh right you would, because you want to lynch me.

Painting me as someone as a newbie with tunnel vision works two ways with you as me probing you further will strengthen your claim and it also gives you another half-target to pull out of the draw should you want one.

I am not painting anything. You

are

a newbie with tunnelvision. And yet again with the Cephrir-is-scum-so-here's-why crap.

And yes I have played scum before and don't really go around pushing wagons I can't get over the line. If you go around doing that too much you tend to out yourself very quickly.

If I'm scum there, I am definitely not thinking what you say I must be. Remotely decent scum are thinking about far more than who they can get lynched, it's not even a priority. If you've played scum you've been doing a godawful job of it.

@Ceph

I might have misread - - but did you vote Pitstop for having the same opinion of me as you had? And you only changed it because things seemed to turn his way?

It seems hypocritical and opportunistic - but it's late - - if I misread, someone correct me if I'm wrong

No. I have not thought at any point in this game that you are scum, maybe it appears that I did but that's not the case.

Cephrir, who was making particularly compelling arguments that you feel could have led to AT being an easy D1 lynch?

IMO, no one. I guess I wasn't giving everyone else enough credit and assumed everyone was a sheep. At the other site where I play, everyone is a sheep, so y'know. Carries over.

Also, are we there, yet?

I meant game days.

I also don't think AT was looking to be an easy D1 lynch. Those who were "loudly disagreeing" were not making compelling arguments at all, they were totally superficial and non-important.

You may say so now, but you might not have if there was an AT wagon right now. And yes they were superficial and terrible, but again I've seen people get lynched over ridiculously small things.

[Cephrir]

You may say so now, but you might not have if there was an AT wagon right now. And yes they were superficial and terrible, but again I've seen people get lynched over ridiculously small things.

And exactly how successful were those lynches?

If you mean "were they on scum?" then not very.

Andy: Opinion or observation? Wouldn't those be effectively the same thing? I just meant that I could see you getting lynched, not that I supported it.

[Cephrir]

Dude, quickly following up ODDin with:

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

is twenty times closer to "pushing a potential wagon" than anything Pitstop did. The difference between not even voting for someone and being the third man in for example. If you are going to ping Pitstop for "pushing a potential wagon" you should have no problems with me doing the same to you.

Voting is visible. Pushing a wagon and being on it are not the same thing, Pitstop was supporting the wagon idea without actually putting anything concrete on it that could be traced back to him. Last sentence makes zero sense. Also, why the hell is everyone all over me about this vote and not ODDin?

Posting is visable too, people read they even *gasp* reread. This would have been picked up no doubt and easily traced back to him - it was hardly made in invisible ink. ODDin had already underlined it with his post, it hardly needed yo jumping on board if it was just a case of making sure it went by unnoticed.

It's not, I'm voting for Pitstop because he's scum.

I'm all over you because I'm more interested in you quickly following up ODDin with a pat on the back ("Nice catch!") when it really wasn't much of anything.

Funny, that's the first time you've mentioned that. And that's a load of crap, I'm just agreeing with him... you might as well say any two people voting for the same player must be scum together.

Also the tone of your response is one more of discrediting me to the town rather than defending yourself against very valid questioning.

Very valid questioning? You didn't even ask me any questions! That was an outright attack, how do you expect me to respond? Would you prefer I not try to disprove your attack? Oh right you would, because you want to lynch me.

I would prefer you try to disporve my attack or at least offer up a few reasons as to why you wouldn't be scum or try a few things to find some.

I DID, READ WHAT I AM TYPING PLEASE KTHX

And you are right I am trying to lynch you because I believe you to be scum - very perceptive.

God I am so sick of your snarky attitude. Obviously I was referring to the fact that you seem to expect me to just give up, and you're supposedly finding me suspicious-er for what basically amounts to defending myself from a post full of crap.

Painting me as someone as a newbie with tunnel vision works two ways with you as me probing you further will strengthen your claim and it also gives you another half-target to pull out of the draw should you want one.

I am not painting anything. You

are

a newbie with tunnelvision. And yet again with the Cephrir-is-scum-so-here's-why crap.

You are the one pushing that narrative. I'm looking for evidence to prove/disprove a suspicion. At the moment you are struggling to pull out anything that would go into the disprove pile.

Get over yourself.

And yes I have played scum before and don't really go around pushing wagons I can't get over the line. If you go around doing that too much you tend to out yourself very quickly.

If I'm scum there, I am definitely not thinking what you say I must be. Remotely decent scum are thinking about far more than who they can get lynched, it's not even a priority. If you've played scum you've been doing a godawful job of it.

Let's leave the analysis of each others scum playing abilities until the end of the game aye? If it does turn out you are scum it speaks a lot to your abilities that you were so comprehensively outed in a "newbie's" mind by page 10.

And given that I'm not, it speaks a lot to your abilities that you're keeping up this stupid argument and will probably continue to do so no matter what I say until one of us dies.

[Cephrir]

[quote=MadCrawdad"]Ceph, it has nothing to do with what you assumed about everyone else. You said that at first, some folks were making compelling arguments against AT that could have made him an easy lynch target. Kind of says to me that you were claiming someone was saying some good stuff...at least enough to make YOU (not your assumed sheep) think that AT could be scum. Maybe not good enough stuff for you to want to lynch him, but apparently good nonetheless. So who was saying ANY good stuff that had you thinking AT could become an easy lynch candidate? [/quote]
Like I said. Never thought T was scum. In fact I'm quite certain he isn't.

@Everyone agreeing with a case that doesn't exist: WTF is wrong with you.

...And then what Ceph predicted would happen to AT happened to him. The irony is overwhelming.

[Cephrir]

You really like asking questions, don't you? =P

Okay, to be fair, there was a point at which I wasn't as certain as I am now. Nothing actually changed... I don't really want to finish explaining for reasons I don't want to discuss yet.

[Cephrir]

If this is true - - I haven't typed anything from beginning to end of you being unsure, to you being certain - - meaning it was other people hounding on you and Pitstop that made you "certain" - - was it to appease them?

I thought of something.

And the "reasons I don't want to discuss" - - I might have missed it in the re-read, but this in addition to what you said you wrote to reind yourself of something to bring up later - - what was it? I'm just as curious, and secrets so early seem sketchy to me.

It's the same thing. When I talk about it, you'll see why I didn't want to, I promise. I'd like to give a hint or something but then it would probably be obvious. If everyone really insists I'll do it now. It's not as big of a deal as it appears to be, but I'd still rather save it.

[Cephrir]

It's the same thing. When I talk about it, you'll see why I didn't want to, I promise. I'd like to give a hint or something but then it would probably be obvious. If everyone really insists I'll do it now. It's not as big of a deal as it appears to be, but I'd still rather save it.

Are you talking about a role ability you have?

It's not. Like I said, it's not really a huge thing like everyone is making it. It's just something that... might modify the behavior of at least one player. Like seriously, it matters so little that I shouldn't have even bothered mentioning it, it wouldn't have mattered much if I forgot. And of course when I am inevitably forced to come out with it today, The Corporation will attack me over it because it's so non-secret-worthy.

IMO it's just to push a vague 'I know something you don't know, so don't lynch me'.

Oh come the fuck on. Now you're just trying too hard to be suspicious of every tiny little thing I do.

[Cephrir]

Fine, it's being blown so far out of proportion it doesn't matter. I'm not being manipulative, I just didn't want one specific player (you) to be aware of something.

Which is the meta I have of you as scum. Basically in our game as scum together I noticed that you were carefully calculating every move and did every little thing with some purpose behind it. I don't feel that you're playing that way at all in this game and you're being much less careful with your opinion, hence I think you're town. Obviously I would have preferred to have a few more game days on which to base this, but then I stupidly went and reminded myself inthread.

In before anguished cries of how that wasn't worth being secretive followed by votes.

[Cephrir]

1) Cephrir quickly followed me and put a 3rd vote on Pitstop. Also, the compliment made toward me might have been an attempt at buddying. He knows I'm town, so he's trying to make me think like my argument is solid and good. That's pretty much the original case. It's not that strong in an on its own, but it has a certain point.

First of all, I thought it was the second vote. As evidenced, I believe, by me calling it the second vote in a later post. Second, I said you had a good case and agreed with you. Let's say this is genuine. How could I possibly have worded that post agreeing with you to possibly not be seen as buddying?

2) Cephrir has been quite busy invalidating all arguments against him by making those following them feel bad about themselves and painting them as bad players.

Meh, just Corp really. As for everyone else I'm honestly wondering what merit they see in his case.

He's been accusing Corp of being a newbie - that isn't helpful, an argument is an argument. Later he says: (insert stuff here) This also isn't helpful. Would you have reacted the same way had they been following that same argument against someone else?

This much is fair. To answer your question, I don't know.

This is just horrible. Please notice that Cephrir doesn't find me scummy. At no point does he bring an argument against me. Also, he's not merely asking "why is it that you find me scummy and you don't find ODDin scummy". He says "why are you over me and not ODDin". As in, lynch him, not me.

No, I don't find you scummy; I was just questioning what set the two of us apart in Corp's opinion because the reasons he was attacking me seemed applicable to you as well; knowing that I'm not scum I obviously wouldn't suspect you for the same actions but you get it.

4) He's been accusing Corp of saying he's scum and basing his logic on that. Then at some point he says "I'm voting pitstop because he's scum". No, you're voting for him because you think he's suspicious. (If you're town to begin with, that is.) That's something of a contradiction.

"Because he's scum" = slightly overconfident way of saying I find him suspicious.

[Cephrir]

Which is another point - the whole tenor of his replies is 100% assured I am a newbie town, no mention of the possibility I am mafia with a well directed (and increasingly successful it seems) attack. Post 220 is a good example of this, there are several others too.

Just because I haven't called you scum doesn't mean I'm 100% certain you're town. In my mind I can't help but be a bit suspicious of you, obviously, but I'm aware that I have a natural tendency to feel OMGUSy so I hadn't mentioned it, it's probably just that talking.

But you have put it in a very certain way, as if trying to make people thing "damn, I'm going to look like an idiot if I follow this case". No matter what we might think or say, we often care how others see us and judge us, and attempting to create a parallel of "you follow the case against me = you're an idiot" can be a very useful strategy for scum. This also ties in to the previous point (you potentially buddying me) - it draws a picture of a scum with a tactic of manipulating feelings and emotions.

It can also come from slightly frustrated town. But I suppose I have been doing this.

I get it. Again, it's all in how you put it. It didn't sound like valid questioning, it sounded like "lynch him, damn it, not me!". You can say it's just my imagination and you didn't mean it, but I saw what I saw.

Since you're not allowing me to argue with you here, all I can do is tell you that you're wrong.

Considering this overconfidence had no real basis - my argument against Pitstop was fine, but it wasn't rock solid, - and considering how you accused Corp of him being overconfident, this just seems strange.

Let me try again. "I'm voting Pitstop because he's scum" = "I'm not voting for Pitstop for the reason you put in my mouth". I guess if you're going to see it that way then I can't stop you.

[Cephrir]

Okay I really don't like Cephrir's play, especially the whole bit about AT not playing his normal self or whatever that was.

I've been attacked about a lot of things, but the one thing you find most suspicious is that I'm using meta... um, what?

That was a whole lot of nothing being dragged out and attempted to made into something, kind of annoying

That's what I said but no one believed me

@appeals to emotion:
1. could be read that way.
2. that doesn't even make sense.
3. having emotion does not equal appealing to emotion.
4. yeah, fine.
5. see 3.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir- I think the arguments against him are valid, however, I find it odd that he doesn't seem to be defending himself too much, but that doesn't mean I find it scummy. [Many people think when I say "odd" I mean "scummy".]

What would you call what I've been doing for the last 3 pages or so if not defending myself?

The Corporation- Not necessarily scum, but I am suspicious of him, since he has kept his vote for me since the very beginning for the lame reason that he doesn't like that my name has letters and numbers in it. Thus, making me believe that it's just an easy way for him to vote for me without anyone noticing.

Leaving a random vote on is not suspicious, sorry. If this is the biggest suspicion you can come up with I suspect you're scum not used to having to make up suspects.

[Cephrir]

Or alternatively, people don't do things like that because it's stupid.

[Cephrir]

...Then what are you doing exactly? Not observing?

[Cephrir]

...Then what are you doing exactly? Not observing?

I mean that that shouldn't be all he's doing. With 12 pages, he should have observed a lot of reactions now, so he should be asking some questions.

Right, and this is not hypocritical how exactly?

Also, Zero's logic is clearly impenetrable.

[Cephrir]

No, considering there are 12 players in this game and you only actually have 1 vote. I think the reference was more to behavior that could potentially get you lynched if it continues.

[Cephrir]

V/LA over the weekend.

[Cephrir]

I realize it takes 7 votes, but I mean out of a possible 12 votes. It has nothing to do with it, someone just said that I was in danger of being lynched or something.

Um, wasn't it you who said that?

Back from V/LA.

[Cephrir]

Any hint I would have given would have made it obvious to AT what I was talking about IMO. For instance, if I said it was meta he'd probably have known it was him since the game in question had just ended and I'd made a few comments about his thought process in our conversations. If I said I just didn't want AT to know about it, same situation.

[Cephrir]

I don't agree.

[Cephrir]

To be fair, dejkha has been uncharacteristically quiet in this game which may result from a disinterest in being scum. But I don't know if Zero has even played with dej before so that still doesn't make any sense.

Theory: Zero is scum with dej and is angry he quit and/or knows why he's quitting?

Regardless,

FoS: Zero

[Cephrir]

Seriously?

[Cephrir]

Amazing how much conversation a couple of bold letters can start. I voted for him because him not posting, even before prodding him seemed like a way to stay under the radar. He had maybe one conflict and the end. And I didn't try to confuse the game [at least during that vote]. If you don't like my vote, do something about it.

Oh, I must also agree with hewitt. This game is boring as hell. Can we just lynch someone already?


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scum tell. I don't care. Just make something happen.

I believe my opinion on this subject can best be expressed in three words.

Unvote, Vote Zero

.

[Cephrir]

I just don't have any response to that selfvote. I feel like you probably are town, but obviously you have no plans of ever helping us scumhunt and clearly you will eventually be lynched. It's Empking syndrome. It doesn't really matter whether we lynch you now or later, but you'll probably flip town. You suck.

[Cephrir]

*Ceph - Emp and Zwet play the "Slayer's Gambit" - - they intentionally make themselves appealing for a lynch in an effort to lure scum on the wagon and signal such to the town

Pffft. No, they just suck. Especially Emp.

[Cephrir]

Non-random-phase selfvoters should be policy lynched.

@"lynching town is always bad": Yes, this is true. But. Not only is Zero worthless, it's not like we know for certain that he's town. I give him about the same chance of being town as I would someone who had never posted at this point. I think the un-selfvote and un-total-resignation is just born from the realization that he might just get away with this. Makes me feel like the sentiment was insincere in the first place.

I'd like to see a claim at least, personally.

[Cephrir]

Fine. REASON: I know dejkha wanted out of the game and since he likes being town more. Therefore, I'm assuming he was scum.

Cephrir: What exactly have you done to help the town? [Not trying to find scum, I mean what have you actually done that has made an impact on the town?]

Given that no one's been lynched yet, it can't be said that anyone has done anything to help the town other than scumhunt... what possible answer would there be to this question on Day 1 even from a shining beacon of protownness who had clearly caught all the scum. Getting scum killed and trying to find scum are the only meaningful contributions that exist.

[Cephrir]

See, the difference is, you're not trying. You're actively trying to not try, actually.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, what good does bringing up that meta info bit do several days later as opposed to mentioning it on day one? It would be useless unless both of you are still alive which you would have no way to predict unless you are not town, and if you died your "secret" would have died with you.

Well it's not so significant that it would be a tragedy if I died with it, but I didn't think it would be terribly useful without several days' worth of his actions to base it on. And if he died then it wouldn't really matter would it.

[Cephrir]

Then it wouldn't have been a tragedy if you had forgotten it, either. So there really was no point in posting the 'Note to Self' in the thread. Right? Everyone has little thoughts about players, but nobody really puts their little notes in the thread...especially when those thoughts are as unimportant as you're making your 'Note to Self' appear now.

I don't keep physical notes, and it would be slightly better for me to remember than to not.

What concerns me, Ceph, is that it seems like you could be posing as a scum hunter, but not really hunting anything...

Yeah, well what concerns me is your obnoxious playstyle of asking tons and tons of questions, waiting for someone to slip up and say something objectionable, while not actually contributing anything you can be attacked based on.

Posing as the good townie/voice of reason when you single-handedly stopped the fictitious runaway lynch wagon on AT.

Way to exaggerate. I just got the feeling it was going to happen... if I didn't say something, it seemed to me that AT would have been lynched over it. And sitting back and watching AT get lynched- which is what I thought inaction would amount to- is obviously the wrong decision.

Posing as the wily mafia hunter who was so crafty and deep under cover that you couldn't share your thoughts (but instead decided to leave little messages), lest you blow your important investigations.

As though I was anywhere near that dramatic about it.

The fact that you were third on Zero is also somewhat suspect to me. With all the heat having been on you, Zero could have represented a diversion. Getting on 1st or 2nd might have made you appear too eager, but jumping on the wagon 3rd could give it the nudge you might be hoping for.

Or alternatively, I decided to vote for someone because they're scummy. I'm sure you're going to take the high ground and defend him now that his wagon isn't amounting to anything, of course.

He asked Zero to claim - - Zero had a bit of pressure against him, he was in the spotlight, he even got a little snappy at us - - asking him to claim was fishing for one of those "meta scum claims" - and that earns:

Well I didn't mean I wanted him to claim immediately. As in, I'd like to see him run up to L-1 so that he'll have to claim. Which really isn't any more aggressive than placing a vote on him because it says "I would currently prefer to lynch this player if he's not a power role".

Perhaps he indeed had special knowledge that I would be alive in days to come - the same knowledge scum would have if he chose to keep me alive until he could later point at me and say "meta!"

That might make sense if I was using the meta to say that you're scummy, but I'm actually saying the reverse.

I agree with AndyTony, mainly because I have already claimed to be town.

Right, because obviously when I said I wanted you to claim it was because I expected you to claim mafia.

[Cephrir]

I said that wrong given the context of you actually claiming scum on occasion. It was sarcastic.

[Cephrir]

The thing is, though, if your 'Note to Self' was truly to remind you to mention AT's meta, you didn't have a few game days to do so. And you knew it. So why would you wait? Your information would have been much more urgent (and important) than you're claiming.

I I brought that up too early it would become all-but-worthless. Which it did.

When you posted your 'Note to Self,' you must have already had your feeling that AT was going be railroaded, as nothing much happened in the ten-or-so posts between your note and the revelation that you thought AT was going to be wrongfully lynched on D1:

Yeah, absolutely, but it's not like he was going to get 7 votes without me having a chance to say something.

[Cephrir]

I forget things.

Maybe I didn't think it all the way through but is that really good enough grounds for a vote?

[Cephrir]

I stress again - -

-I think a stronger point was the notion of Ceph asking for a role claim from Zero when things built up -


What are thoughts on that?

I don't get how this is scummy. Honestly I'd still like to see him run up to a claim.

[Cephrir]

Backtracking again, and on this account, you're saying he claims scum "on occasion" when in reality, you know perfectly well that he claims scum when he's pushed, backed into a wall, facing ignorance, etc. - - it's not something he does "on occasion" for the good of his health.

Whatever. I was just pointing out that my post could easily be misinterpreted because he does that, and I thought his post immediately following ("Oh.") signified that that's what he thought I meant.

-You try to backtrack by saying that you don't want a claim, you want him to be put at L-1 so that he CAN claim

Yeah. Incidentally, these are basically the same thing as far as I'm concerned; people rarely have any reason to claim when not on L-1 unless it's obvious that there's enough support to lynch them.

-That being said, can you please list the evidence you feel warrents putting him a vote away from dying AND wanting him to therein claim his role?

-He has outright refused to scumhunt in any non-blatant-OMGUS fashion; therefore he will never be of any use if town, and will never help us find his scumbuddies if he is scum. In fact I wonder if he even reads the thread sometimes. What suspicions he has come up with have been horrifically illogical.
-His defense thus far is "I'm not scum", therefore he clearly has no commitment to the game whatsoever.
-He will probably, at some point in this game, be lynched, and is dangerous to have around in an endgame scenario; so D1 is the best time to get rid of him while we have less concrete information to go by than we will in later days.
-Selfvoters deserve to die.
-I think his dejkha vote is frustration at a scumbuddy for quitting.

[Cephrir]

What I mean after that second quote is: Me wanting a claim and me wanting him at L-1 are the same thing.

[Cephrir]

Zero claiming scum is not a tell honestly, it's just him giving up. I'm not backtracking, you're just interpreting what I say in a way that allows you to call it backtracking even though I haven't really changed my opinion.

[Cephrir]

You?

[Cephrir]

I wanted to get him to L-1 so that he would claim his role. Seeing as there are two power roles in this game. He's only given up at a claim if he's arbitrarily claiming scum.

[Cephrir]

If you really wanted to remind yourself, then make an note outside of the game.

Wouldn't work.

Would you really have gone back all those pages to reread your note anyway?

Yes.

Of the lurkers, I am most suspicious of Khamisa

Pssst. You're a lurker.

[Cephrir]

It's quite obvious to me that I'm going to be lynched today no matter what I say at this point. That always seems to happen when I post too much on Day 1. The scum are Corporation, Replacement, and Zero or some random lurker. Good luck doing better tomorrow.

[Cephrir]

Not replacement. I meant dejkha. I just assumed that's who he replaced.

[Cephrir]

Pfff. You're only one vote. The general sentiment is obviously going in my direction.

[Cephrir]

Well lesse here. dej is usually an active player but flaked for no apparent reason, probably dislikes being scum. I've pointed out the connection between him and Zero. I just posted a series of points on why Zero is scum last page. I suppose "dejkha, Zero, and The Corporation or some random lurker" is more accurate since the latter has the least basis. Yes, that's pure OMGUS but I'm allowed to do that since I'm going to die anyway.

[Cephrir]

Realized there are a lot of players in this game who need(ed) replacing? Nothing in particular really.

[Cephrir]

Don't you have a little more to say than that?

I withdraw my assertion that Zero is one of the more dangerous players to have around in the endgame... all the useless lurkers are far worse.

[Cephrir]

Well, I was giving up because it just felt really obvious that I was going to be lynched. Maybe there's still hope I suppose. On Zero: I really don't have much explanation. I'm being very wishy-washy on him, he is definitely scummy but at times I think he's town playing horribly and at other times I think he's actually scum. In general, lynching him is correct even if it is a utility lynch. If I was strictly going for a utility lynch though, I would want to lynch Khamisa, but Zero has a greater chance of actually being scum. That said Khamisa is climbing up my suspect list for blatantly intentionally lurking and being hypocritical.

[Cephrir]

V/LA this weekend.

[Cephrir]

I could try to respond and defend myself and then get lynched, or I could just not put in any effort and still get lynched. Seems like a pretty easy decision to me. Aldus is still scum by the way, although he'll probably cruise through the game based on his apparent alignment since replacements unfailingly get a clean slate for no good reason.

I tried giving up before but that didn't stick. Maybe it'll work this time.

[Cephrir]

See all those players defending me? Those are my scumbuddies.

[Cephrir]

Of course it does.

[Cephrir]

I could try to respond and defend myself and then get lynched, or I could just not put in any effort and still get lynched.

What makes you so sure that you can't avoid being lynched today?

That would be the fact that everyone not being replaced has expressed a willingness to lynch me.

[Cephrir]

he most likely would have done it because he found something in a player's post that, if they did something that didn't agree with it, he could go back and reference it.

What does that even mean?

I can agree that it isn't the best wording, but it makes it seem like Zer0 is worried about our opinion of Aldusk. From the whole Zer0/dejkha reaction earlier, I'd have to say he's leaning a little towards anti-town/mafia, whichever you choose.

That's a strange way of responding. He asked you what you think of an apparently somewhat arbitrary player... what's wrong with that? Your initial reaction was even stranger. By the way, are you planning to say anything in this entire game that someone else hasn't already said?

[Cephrir]

Why do you think he didn't just put it in his Notes (at the top right of the page, next to Usergroups)?

Because I don't read them. The only times I've ever used that was when I wanted to write a post at Night.

[Cephrir]

OK, lets use a totally out-there statement.

Say someone said "the sky is blue." Cephrir makes a note of this and then later, when the player says "the sky is green," Cephrir can attack them on this point.

Why would I need to make a note to myself for that? I don't get it.

[Cephrir]

I do not believe the Cephrir lynch is inevitable; his current case is poorly reasoned. And you seem very sold on the fact that a Zer0 lynch is a mislynch.

Sounds to me like you know we're both mislynches

[Cephrir]

After, I think. And I think it hardly counts that he's "defending me" without actually having read the case, apparently. Honestly I'd rather no one at all was defending me than someone I suspect. I won't deny that she's making us look like obv scumbuddies right now. Given that I know that's 50% wrong but I still think she's scummy, anyone up for lynching her first rather than lynching me and then not lynching her when I flip town?

[Cephrir]

Rolefishing is a stretch and you know it. Also, I've never played with you to my knowledge Khamisa... so are you secretly putting more effort into this game than you appear to be or making things up?

@ODDin: Bringing up your own meta is scummy. And it's scummy because townies don't feel the need to do it. That said, it's possible that Khamisa has something, I really don't have a defined answer as to whether I contradict myself a lot as any alignment, can't think of any really good example except for this game. I've been accused of appealing to emotion a lot though.

[Cephrir]

Speaking of throwing in the towel, why aren't I dead yet?

[Cephrir]

I don't understand the bolded part. It isn't like the case on Khamisa (active lurking) is really related to you, thus your fates aren't really intertwined.

She's making herself look like my scumbuddy. Also, D1 suspects who don't get lynched have a tendency to escape D2.

Why don't Townies feel the need to do it?

Meh, I dunno.

...reasons?

Been through this already, no one believes me, not saying it again.

When, where, and as what alignment?

I'll deal with this when I have more time. Or I'll just not because it's not going to matter. We'll see.

[Cephrir]

Can you elaborate on what information was held in Mini 698? In detail?

I wagoned on someone without giving any reason; later I revealed that I was trying to get a reaction out of the wagonee. And everyone jumped all over me for it, naturally.

This certainly makes me feel like she and ceph and scum buddies, and she's heard his plea and went on to defend him. But even if he does flip town, I'm very suspicious of Khamisa right now.[.quote]
Yeah, seriously... if I wasn't me right now I would think me and Khamisa were scumbuddies if one of us flipped scum. Can't help but think this might be the objective now that sh'es becoming a viable suspect. I also notice that she's posted about ten times as much in the past week as she did the whole rest of the game. Also, Khamisa, why did you leave out my scum games? I can think of three (Alpha Centauri Smalltown, FFVII and Open 62) that were definitely in the last year.

Have you thrown in the towel?

Well. I tried several times and couldn't stick to it, so I guess I'm just not able to.

[Cephrir]

So you're only voting me because you think I was mentioning that I wanted Zero to have to claim because I wanted him to claim scum?

[Cephrir]

Well I wasn't aware it was just that.

[Cephrir]

I didn't. Everyone thinks I'm scum because they think that's what I was going for.

[Cephrir]

Liking Khamisascum more and more. If dej and zero are really scum together I'm not concerned if we find out later. There're two of them so we can't possibly never find out.

[Cephrir]

I'm unimpressed with Ceph's loose and careless play.

Even though doing so is slightly scummy, I'm going to point out that I didn't play this way in Open 124 and you know it. =P.

[Cephrir]

Another thing is that extremely long days are very good for the town - which makes this somewhat unfair for the mafia.

Wtf? Who cares?

FoS Oddin.

And way to try to hurry a lynch that you know will be a lynch of me.

[Cephrir]

Especially when Khamisa is rapidly becoming a viable alternative. Or was for a while anyway.

[Cephrir]

I'm very sure that had I not claimed, somewhere along the lines, someone would've went, "Well, Zer0's never actually claimed to be pro-town before, let's lynch him".

Seriously? I'm pretty sure most of the players in this game have never specifically claimed this because there's no reason to... if anyone seriously made that suggestion I would lynch them on the spot.

[Cephrir]

Bleh. Not really. =/

[Cephrir]

...

[Cephrir]

That's L-1 for no reason. Would you like to stop?

[Cephrir]

My current vote is worthless.

Unvote, Vote: Khamisa

[Cephrir]

Meh, I'd say the opposite. To me it just seems silly. It's not happening; IMO Khamisa is trying to stay off my wagon. I might not think of this as a legit reason to suspect someone but Khamisa seems like a terrible player. Not to mention the amount of effort she's not giving. Why sign up for a game so you can not play in it? The world may never know.

[Cephrir]

Prodded. Still present, still getting lynched. Busy, don't expect much from me terribly soon.

[Cephrir]

I'm not sure what you want me to say... nothing's happened, I'm just waiting for the town to choose me or Khamisa.

[Cephrir]

I could claim and be lynched, or not claim and still be lynched. Does it really make a difference?

Yeah, I can't really be bothered to try hard in this game because I've known for like twenty something pages that I was going to be the lynch today. It's just a shock that it took you all this long to actually do it. Also, hohum is a douche.