Open 875 - The Kindgom of Zeal: The Queens Chosen - GAME OVER
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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I'm here, sorry about the delay, was hoping this game would fire either sooner or later than it did.
25 pages already, damn, which of you is the scum hyperposting?-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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VOTE: Enchant
I am random OMGUSing-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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To be fair, I have like. Barely played. I also haven't read yet and don't plan to for my own sanity, so what's the deal with Korina?In post 620, Detective Penguin wrote: it seems as if korina has done some more randomly scummy shit than rr has done randomly scummy shit so I randomly put my vote on korina
randomly-
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I don't like eliminating people who aren't here-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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If nothing else, the slot deserves the opportunity to claim and/or give final reads should the replacement make any-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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It's just a thing about the spirit of playing a game together for me. I won't eliminate empty slots unless there's a near certainty of guilt. In that case, I'm okay not putting a replacement through the trouble, but generally I just don't like the idea of going after a slot that isn't capable of defending itself.
You might have that near certainty, but I do not.-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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People claimed already? Who?In post 643, Detective Penguin wrote: but also, we've already had two so I'm not super stressed about it-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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@Ranger and furtiveIn post 647, Detective Penguin wrote:
ranger and furtive. both claimed N1, furtive claimed cop.In post 646, Radical Rat wrote:
People claimed already? Who?In post 643, Detective Penguin wrote: but also, we've already had two so I'm not super stressed about it
When you get here, please explain why you thought this was a good idea-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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Fair enough, though this seems to happen an awful lot to you-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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Did you or Ranger claim first?-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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Okay I simply just do not believe this.In post 29, Ranger wrote:
By a technicality. I didn't have any real townreads. The top tier was weak townleans.In post 24, Cephrir wrote:Me in top tier on page 1? Now I really am malding
Confused, actually.In post 23, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:This is gonna be frustrating for you. I'm sorry in advance.
Pretty sure role flips in setup but not night of acting if I remember correctly so will say I act N1. (I should double-check that but full disclosure; I actually forgot this was an open. Thanks to how flavored it was I thought it was a theme. xD)
VOTE: Ranger
I don't see LLD opening this way as scum but it's not worth the effort of debating my alignment with her.
{Lady Lambdadelta}
{Save The Dragons, Gimli, furtiveglance, Cephrir}
{Ethel}
{Sail}
{Korina, (Detective Penguin, Radical Rat, Umlaut)}
{redFF}
(Now it is the second-to-top tier which is weak townleans.)
Game's just started, and you decide it's just not worth arguing with LLD so you're gonna give up and die? Maybe if you had a late game ability and you didn't think you'd live long enough to use it, but you're claiming N1? And have apparently zero interest in surviving at least long enough to use it? Not to mention how premature the claim is.
VOTE: Ranger-
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The major sticking point for me is the self-vote. A premature claim in response to an inflated perception of a threat is one thing. Choosing not to engage with LLD on it is one thing.
As a PR that's guaranteed a chance to act tonight if she lives through the day, actively making it easier for her to get eliminated is quite another. And then to just leave her vote parked there the whole time instead of even trying to vote for scumreads is just incomprehensible to me.
As Town with a PR, ESPECIALLY when we know it's either a Cop or a Doc, her priority should be using it. I don't believe Ranger seriously thinks her sitting around waiting to die is actually helpful for anyone, and I definitely don't believe she thinks self-voting is going to do her any favors as Town.-
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I think it's a WIFOM AtE. She knows it doesn't make sense to do, and is hoping doing it anyway makes her look like frustrated TownIn post 700, Umlaut wrote: The thing that makes me question now whether Ranger's post comes from mafia is just that it's such aweirdresponse to one vote and sticks out badly in a way Ranger should know better than to do. I find it hard to believe scum!Ranger sounds the alarms and goes into flail mode the first time she gets voted.-
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StD's right, and I'd had the same thought myself. I do think hitting scum should take priority over being mechanically safe, but I would move for another strong scum candidate.
Honestly kinda not liking Cephrir's reactions here-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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What made the situation different for you with furtive?-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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I am. Kind of. I'm at least strongly considering it as an option enough to not unvote.In post 769, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: You're the fucking worst Ranger.
Literally no one is trying to kill you today anymore. You're living in a fantasy world of persecution of your own creation.-
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@Ranger, not quoting because mobile and it's a pain, but
You have either an N1 Cop or a Doctor. Furtive is already claimed N1 Cop.
This means that there is a 100% guarantee of getting a cop result tomorrow if you both live today, and are both telling the truth.
I recognize that you didn't know this when you initially started trying to get yourself killed, but you do now. If you believe furtive, and you already know you're Town, you need to be alive. If you don't believe furtive, you should be voting for him instead of yourself.
I get that you don't want to fight LLD, so don't. Ignore her entirely if you must. But to take your ball and go home because of an early scumread on the literal second page of the game... if you're not scum, it's at the very least incredibly selfish and anti-Town behavior.-
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What about the fact that LLD actually moved her vote away from you? Clearly she's willing to go elsewhere and not just blindly tunnel you into oblivion, so your argument that the game can't progress while you're alive just doesn't make sense-
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The only way any of this play makes sense is if you're scum trying to pull reverse psychology shit.-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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If you're Town, this is literally the worst possible thing you could be doing.-
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I would just like everyone to read this post, bearing in mind Ranger has claimed to have an N1 action. She apparently has no interest in using her action whatsoever, which I find to be completely unbelievable if such an action actually exists.In post 785, Ranger wrote:
I count as someone.In post 769, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Literally no one is trying to kill you today anymore.
I don't want to deal with you pushing me every day phase.
It's my preference to die today because even if you're pushing elsewhere--your read on me remains. You're scumreading me. You want me dead. You can choose to not pursue me today. You still want to pursue me eventually. D2. D3. Until I die.
Easier to remove the distraction D1 than have it in the game until I die later.-
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I like that idea too. Too bad Ranger doesn't actually have an ability, and even if she did with you as one of her stronger scumreads I don't trust her to use a doc on you.In post 832, furtiveglance wrote: I like the idea of redFF elim, Ranger protects me.
Fortunately there's potential for other, realer Doctors to exist-
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I'm not being disingenuous. If your ability were real, you would want to eliminated D2, not D1. You saying D1 is better is just for you to justify not really playing the game.-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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That's true of any individual, but not so of groups. While we can't know WHO is lying, because for every individual the odds are equal, for every person who claims to have an ability on a given night, the likelihood that at least one is lying goes up.In post 838, redFF wrote: Say you flip a coin 4 times and it flips tails 4 times, what are the chances the next flip is heads?
Its 50%
Right now we have two N1 claims. The odds of either, individually, being true are 20%. But the odds of both being true simultaneously are only 4%, because you would need a second event with 20% probability following from the first. A third claim would reduce this to a less than 1% chance that all three are telling the truth.
In your coin flip example, the odds of the next flip being heads are 50%, but the odds that you initially flipped four heads in a row are about 6.25%.
Having said that, it's still not really helpful because regardless of whether you're Town or Scum, the correct claim is that you act on the next night. As Scum, it's the easiest argument to keep you alive, and as Town, you want to make scum's nightkill decision harder AND be kept alive.
This setup does not incentivize truth-
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No it doesn't. Town isn't guaranteed to tell the truth. And in this setup Town is actively incentivized to NOT tell the truth.In post 841, Gimli wrote: the odds of furtive or ranger's claim being true equals to the odds of them being town, which is about 75% for each. the odds of them both acting on n1 equals to the odds of them both being town, which is ugh 56%? of course that and not 4% lol if it was 4% we'd have nothing left to discuss
Though my 4% number is actually wrong because I forgot to take into account that you have to be Town to get a night number in the first place, so. It's actually not a straight 20% chance an individual acts on a given night, it's less than that but I'm too lazy to do the actual math.-
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Yes.-
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N1 is the correct thing to claim today, as either Town or Scum. Tomorrow the correct claim for anyone except a Cop with a result is going to be N2.-
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Because if you don't act N1, you want to draw the heat away from people who do. Ideally ideally, we just wouldn't have any claims at all, because they mean nothing in this setup. But if you're going to claim, the correct claim is to act the next night.In post 853, Gimli wrote:
if furtive comes here tomorrow with a 'hey guise so I'm actually a n2 cop' he'll be hanged for itIn post 851, Radical Rat wrote: N1 is the correct thing to claim today, as either Town or Scum.
so idk how that's correct play
You may wish not to risk being killed before your ability can be used if you act on a later night, but claiming truthfully is actually more dangerous because then scum is likely to have less potential targets to choose from.
By claiming to act the next night, regardless of reality, you remove scum's ability to accurately select targets.
You do also remove a Doctor's ability to accurately select targets, but it cannot be assumed that a Doctor who matches your assigned night exists, where it's guaranteed that scum will exist.-
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Has Ranger been eliminated yet? Is her claim one of the major reasons she hasn't?In post 860, Detective Penguin wrote:
nothing about it says "scum motivation" either whilst there are other players who play does and we're ignoring them soooooo....In post 858, Umlaut wrote: I really think you all should listen to what Radical Rat is saying about Ranger. I would reiterate it but they've already put it as well as it can be put. Nothing about her play today is pro-town.
There's your scum motivation-
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Normally, yes. In this particular setup, no.In post 861, redFF wrote:
i dont agree with this. town players should tell the truthIn post 851, Radical Rat wrote: N1 is the correct thing to claim today, as either Town or Scum. Tomorrow the correct claim for anyone except a Cop with a result is going to be N2.-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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I have not. I don't need to have personal experience to look at the unique traits of this setup and make decisions about strategy though.-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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Have YOU played this setup before? Have you played it both with and without implementing my ideas enough times to acquire a statistically significant sample size?
If not, why does your opinion matter more than mine?
I'll accept arguments against my strategy being optimal if you have any, but to throw out logical thought entirely just because I haven't personally played this setup before is... really silly.-
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And I do recognize that this argument would potentially apply to Ranger as well, but that's not consistent with the self-vote, which is the main issue here.
It's not just that I don't believe she acts N1, it's that I don't believe she has an ability at all, because if we take her words at face value, she is actively opposed to being able to do anything with her ability.
Had she just claimed N1, but otherwise attempted to play the game, I wouldn't be on her. Instead she's putting on a show to make her look like frustrated Town, but in a way that doesn't line up with how Town should be approaching this game.-
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You have said, repeatedly, that you want to be the elimination today. Your vote is in service of getting yourself eliminated, and has been the entire game.
Your readslists mean nothing if you won't back them up with your actions. Your claim means nothing if your play directly contradicts it.
If I turn out to be wrong on you, I promise to go back and consider your reads. Until then, I have no reason to believe anything you say, so I don't really care about them.-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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If I self-voted page 2, and said throughout the day that it would be better to eliminate me than any of my actual scumreads, would you be taking me seriously?In post 876, Ranger wrote:
It's almost like there'sIn post 875, Radical Rat wrote:You have said, repeatedly, that you want to be the elimination today. Your vote is in service of getting yourself eliminated, and has been the entire game.twotools of a town, not one.
My voice serves me plenty.
My play is also more than readslists. I've given full explanations for reads as well. You happen to be refusing engagement on any of my reads and their reasons.
I posit the reason why is because it's convenient for you to push your narrative of me not trying and it's convenient for you to not engage me on my reads.-
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My math was in response to other people making bad statistics argumentsIn post 885, Gimli wrote: there's no way town!RR comes here with broken ass math arguments and 'you're hiding behind a n1 claim so you don't have to play' wacky statements idt-
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VOTE: RedFF
Until we meet again in the morrow...-
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I'd rather furtive live, personally-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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I'm sorry, but the opportunity was there and it was really funny
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Your speculations are always helpful. Even if you don't have anything new to say, making your thoughts known is helpful for others to read you, and the way people respond to you may help you develop better reads on them.In post 916, Ethel wrote:
I'll keep my thoughts to myself until I think they're worth sharing. I don't have any information that's not publicly available, and I don't think any speculations from me would currently be helpful.In post 894, Umlaut wrote: I know you're new and all but is this really all you've got to say about the game state?-
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Curious that neither Ranger nor furtive were killed...-
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Or it could have just been you. Didn't want to chance wasting the kill on a protected targetIn post 934, Ranger wrote:
Curious indeed. The kill suggests it was someone not believing my claim, since if scum believed my claim, theyIn post 928, Radical Rat wrote:Curious that neither Ranger nor furtive were killed...shouldhave killed one of {furtiveglance, Ranger, Enchant} (to avoid double invest results).
I've a prime suspect:
VOTE: Radical Rat-
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Can we get a multiple choice?In post 931, furtiveglance wrote: I want people to play as usual for a bit first. Just to see what happens!-
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I think furtive's right here, at least in the abstract sense it's better we get some kind of information out of the day along the way, but also with my brain knowing we have a guilty it's difficult to really think of anything else.
That's why I suggested multiple choice. We can still argue and develop reads about it, but it doesn't feel as pointless as it would with a generic guilty hanging over our heads-
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Where I'm at is that if I were scum, and the decision were up to me, I would have shot Ranger.
While I did not (and do not) believe her claim, I don't think anyone else did either. So any active Doctors would have been on furtive. At that point killing Ranger on the off-chance she was genuinely claiming, and also because she's a prime cop target for furtive would have been my suggestion.
That didn't happen, so either Ranger's scum herself, or scum was confident in both her lying, and that furtive would target someone else. Which would lightly implicate furtive, but in that case I would have expected an inno not a guilty, and he felt Town enough to me yesterday, so unless the guilty comes up fake he's probably fine either way.-
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Beyond Ranger... I have no idea tbh. Cephrir seemed a bit strange, but that's contingent on Ranger being Town, which I don't expect to be the case, so idk.
Possibly LLD and yesterday was weird theater? But I don't really think that's how it felt.
I did get a sense Umlaut might have been attempting to pocket me, but again that's contingent on Ranger being Town, since I don't think a setup full of cops is one you really want to be bussing in.-
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May I ask why you chose Cephrir?-
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I think killing furtive is correct actually. Basically what LLD said, but also like. If we must be wrong on one of them, furtive is essentially VT now, right? Cephrir, assuming he's Town telling the truth, could potentially use that Doctor shot still.
If furtive is Town, we eliminate Cephrir tomorrow. If he's scum, and Cephrir is Town, scum basically has to kill him tonight in the absence of any further claims. If an N2 Doc exists, this gives us a pretty decent chance to block the kill, and we'll have an advantage knowing a Doc is alive and active for N3.-
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VOTE: furtiveglance
Another consideration is that I don't think checking Cephrir made sense. I think given the way things ended last night, Ranger would have been the best option to check, though that may be personal bias.
But also the quotes Cephrir shared do seem to negate the stated reasoning of not being able to read him.-
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I mean she's been incredibly polarizing and has expressed the position that the game won't progress healthily without her being resolved.In post 1060, Enchant wrote:
daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamnIn post 1057, Radical Rat wrote: VOTE: furtiveglance
Ranger would have been the best option to check
A cop check is an opportunity to resolve her without spending a day eliminating her, so that's what I'd have done.-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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Haven't we just played the one game together? Unless you count Weird Dreams, but I barely even got a chance to play that one at all.In post 1071, Gimli wrote: btw furtive I agree with you this is way outside of what I think of RR's town game-
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I would just like to point out that I expressed skepticism BEFORE LLD said her piece. At that point I was already considering the idea, though I hadn't fully spelled it out yet.-
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How does that do more harm?-
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Radical Rat They/ThemJack of All TradesThey/Them
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I think you're wrong about me. Social reads definitely play a large part, but I do favor logical analysis/mech where it's available. Not that you have any real reason to believe me right now, and I'm much too lazy to dig up games, but for future reference you're just wrong here.-
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I do understand your intention with the claim, but I think by claiming a target especially you messed it up. As a Town Cop, you'd have no reason to claim your target ahead of time, if scum buys your claim they can easily just kill the target, and your check is wasted without a huge fear of running into a Doctor, who's far more likely to be on the Cop than the target. So you clearly weren't really a Cop, or you'd have been giving that more thought, and I'd actually be more skeptical of the people who DID believe you if you're Town. Making the naive assumption that knowing you're Town means knowing you weren't lying is a mistake scum is likely to make.
The fact that neither you nor furtive were killed though is very peculiar in either world where you're Town though. If scum believed you, they should have killed within you, furtive, or Enchant, and if they didn't they should have probably killed you anyway as the most likely for furtive to check and the least likely to be protected.-
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I did say that if we're going to be wrong on one of furtive/Cephrir, it's better to be wrong on the one whose ability is already spent.
That doesn't override if you just think Cephrir is super scummy, it's of course better to hit scum in any circumstances, but for someone who's indecisive, furtive is the "correct" choice in a vacuum.
The point I was trying to make isn't that Cephrir's claim is so valuable we can't possibly risk losing it, and I'm also not really sure why that's being attributed to LLD.-
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Why is flipping Cephrir the "mechanical play?"In post 1203, Gimli wrote:
I think the mechanical play is to flip you thoughIn post 1198, Cephrir wrote: i know what you should do with it
I dont think 'cephrir is acting townie' would be a good justification
but anyway I'll think it over I guess-
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Trusting the accuser isn't mechanical. Nor is it powerful enough to override individual reads-
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I mean it is literally someone accusing another person. That's just... what the word means?In post 1211, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: sorry about the social justice language part but if I have to hear one of you call a cop check "the accuser" like it's a sexual assault claim #MeToo one more time I'm going to scream.
I understand your frustration with how assault and such are frequently trivialized, but I don't think this is a good example of that?-
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I don't see why furtive's partner(s) would be undecided?
Voting a guilty result is a perfectly reasonable course of action that would be silly to call someone scum for, so I don't see why they'd be hesitant to jump on that. Unless it's somehow furtive/Ceph, but.... that's a very silly world.-
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