Open 872 | Citadel Conflict | Postgame

[Radical Rat]

I'd rather we'd have full discussion BEFORE people start joining, hold people accountable for their decisions and prevent people being opportunistic and all. Drew's already suspicious on that front as scum is pretty heavily incentivized to pick early.

My own preference would be Palace, probably the easiest of the three and I trust myself to find Town more than I do Scum.

[Radical Rat]

Nona, I don't know what you're doing, but you're double posting everything. Make sure you aren't double clicking the post button if you are

[Radical Rat]

For those casting suspicion, I need to hear why what Drew
did was scummy as opposed to a playstyle difference.

Supposing Drew is Town, it's an anti-Town approach because it gives scum the ability to avoid auto-loss by having any one of them join the dungeon.
Supposing Drew is Scum, it's beneficial because now scum can avoid auto-loss by having either of the other two join another location.

It's hardly damning evidence, but it is an action that hurts Town and benefits Scum, so it's naturally suspicious.

By organizing before committing to choices, and allowing people to express concerns and come to a consensus, we effectively remove scum's agency, and that's better.

[Radical Rat]

If you would make a situation where scum don't have agency, what are you reading them from?

They still have to say where they want to go, but if we organize about it they don't get the final say on where they end up. We can still look for suspicious patterns, judge how strongly they feel about certain locations or pairings. But they can't just immediately grab what they want without looking really really bad in the process. They have to also convince the Town to accept their choice before they can make it.

Scum are still able to be held accountable, it's not like we just sit around drawing straws.

[Radical Rat]

Popcorn's not a bad way to get everyone's preferences tbh

[Radical Rat]

rat

reads, analysis, or observations: go

I don't like what Drew did, though I've already said that. Elements seems a little bit jumpy, slight concern there. Meg I think is probably Town, thoughts seem genuine. I think you're probably Town as well. Most everyone else is null.

I think if possible Court's where we should stick the scummiest people and hopefully we get all three, but if we don't then forcing one of the more suspicious slots to be confirmed would be nice.

Things do need to get moving though, so whoever hasn't said where they want to go yet, start saying that.

[Radical Rat]

I said earlier that I'd like Palace. I feel pretty comfortable on Meg being Town so far, so fine with them joining. You (Taly) would be my other main townread so far, but you've expressed a desire for Dungeon with Herta, which works for me assuming Drew is Town. Then Bella's right we have played a lot recently, though I don't think I've ever seen her scumgame.

I would prefer NOT to be paired with Nona, Drew, or Farren. Mainly just since I haven't played with them before,so not confident on readability.

I guess final preference then would be Palace with Meg and Bella?

[Radical Rat]

Maybe bella makes the most sense as a third? The read on herta could be distancing to avoid going with him. Feels too early for a final deciscion atp, but...

I wouldn't be opposed with
(Drew/Herta/Bella)
(Taly/Meg/RR)
(Farren/Elements/Nona)

Discuss

No objections from me

[Radical Rat]

If Elements is town, if Drew is scum, then it could be a possible chaining of mislims with that theory. I think it would probably be townier to actually say SvS but I know that’s dead wrong but I also know that Drew isn’t the most logical player on MS so bad bs takes could come from him irrespective of alignment.

This is an incredibly weird post.

What do you mean it's "townier" to say SvS? Why are you so certain that's "dead wrong?"

[Radical Rat]

Okay so. Palace should be super easy now, dependent on switching. Drew looks a good deal better after this too.

Really can't even be angry about it if scum just want to out themselves like that.

We should just switch Court and Palace lineups here I think. Prioritize keeping the pairings the same. Does that work for you Meg/Taly?

[Radical Rat]

Rat, have we played together before?

I'm pretty sure. I don't remember a specific game, but I recognized your name.

[Radical Rat]

Well that's... less than ideal.
I wouldn't be too opposed to me and taly going there as is should be still winning, though I do hope nona realizes any chance she had of being voted there has gone down the drain.

If i had had to choose between rat or taly it would have been taly over rat anyway which I kept quiet for obvious reasons for the swap.

The other option is the same pairing as before but with court/palace swapped but im not nearly confident enough on that to really want to switch.

I’m fine with that so long as it’s understood, I’m voting one of you, Taly or myself, so if neither of you join me, all bets are off because I know I’m town and I’m also fine with either of you but no one else.

So iow, I’m fine voting you, I’m fine voting Taly and I’m fine voting myself, so if at least one of you, preferably both need to join me so that we can lock in which one of the three of us gets to be the vote.

So both of you are potentially risking possible scum joining me and if neither of you join me, I will self-vote,

If scum join you, and you're Town, and you self-vote, then... Why is this a threat? Someone's going to have to self-vote anyway?

[Radical Rat]

If Elements is town, if Drew is scum, then it could be a possible chaining of mislims with that theory. I think it would probably be townier to actually say SvS but I know that’s dead wrong but I also know that Drew isn’t the most logical player on MS so bad bs takes could come from him irrespective of alignment.

This is an incredibly weird post.

What do you mean it's "townier" to say SvS? Why are you so certain that's "dead wrong?"

Rat’s engaging with me but there not commenting on posts where I’m clearly trying to solve. So, I guess that’s somewhat frustrating. I guess it just annoys me when my efforts get ignored but to be fair, I don’t just feel that’s from Rat so maybe nothing and I’m being silly.

If you're referring to your argument with Drew, sorry, I'm not touching that. I thought this was a potential TMI tell, so I pushed on it, but I have no interest in digging into personal arguments

[Radical Rat]

See, the only way you're Town here is if you didn't read the setup, AND didn't read the thread. You weren't even set to be paired with Drew like you professed. But I don't think that's true because it seemed like you understood how this was working at first, and even now you say things about Meg/Taly joining you or not while threatening to self-vote, while simultaneously acting like you had no idea that voting Palace would cause any problems. I just don't buy it.

[Radical Rat]

I'd rather stick with the existing pairings and just move location.

I think there's a non-zero chance the solve here is just Nona/Elements/Farren, given how Nona suddenly hopped in right as we were locking things down, and that's where she would've ended up.

[Radical Rat]

Alright then. If I'm right on the solve it'll be pretty obvious once the swap and IC happens. Auto-win would have been funny, but

VOTE: Court

[Radical Rat]

It's poor form to leave game-centered arguments with frustration.

so have kitties instead

<3

Agan, I’m extremely sorry if for being too harsh but I’m just really frustrated because I didn’t think it was protown to agree when I have doubts on Rat. Why would I trust them over my role pm?

Why wouldn't you have just said "I don't agree with this plan because I don't trust Rat" instead of just forcing your way in against Town consensus? The problem isn't that you wanted to be in the Palace, it's that you didn't talk about anything, just decided that you get what you want and fuck everyone else.

To me, it looks a lot like scum panic. If you are Town, it just doesn't make any sense why you'd take this approach.

[Radical Rat]

I'm only mad if you're Town. If you're Scum as I suspect, then gg I guess.

But if indeed you are Town I still don't understand why you wouldn't just... Talk about it?

[Radical Rat]

I'm really not pissed, I'm just trying to understand you.

[Radical Rat]

You weren't even going to be paired with Drew though so how is that relevant?

[Radical Rat]

Whatever, it doesn't matter. What's done is done, and it'll be pretty apparent what happened tomorrow.

[Radical Rat]

Whatever, it doesn't matter. What's done is done, and it'll be pretty apparent what happened tomorrow.

If I self voted we’d win, if Meg and Taly are both town and they get voted we also win or am I misunderstanding because if all of us are town, no matter who we vote would flip town, so I will vote how Taly and Meg want but if it’s for some reason wrong, it won’t be my fault but I really think they probably are both town here. Maybe I just vote Taly? I just don’t see how that AtE could ever come from scum.

You don't vote for anybody. In the event all three of you are Town, one of you's not going to be there tomorrow.

[Radical Rat]

Because that's where you were slated to go. You took my spot, I took yours.

[Radical Rat]

Maybe bella makes the most sense as a third? The read on herta could be distancing to avoid going with him. Feels too early for a final deciscion atp, but...

I wouldn't be opposed with
(Drew/Herta/Bella)
(Taly/Meg/RR)
(Farren/Elements/Nona)

Discuss

[Radical Rat]

After we literally just had a whole thing explaining why this was bad when Drew did it, AND when Nona did it....

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: MegAzumarill

Mechanically confirmed to me, will try to case for Bella's benefit in a moment

[Radical Rat]

I meant can we read anything into the swaps.

Scum is forced to swap, so not really. If there were two scum in one place, then the swap necessarily includes one scum and one town, but we won't know that for sure until things start flipping.

[Radical Rat]

There's like, some tangible benefit to forcing people to go to particular places then looking at swaps but I don't think I care for the most part.

I might do palace and invoke my inner jester
But not right now

Someone townblock with me or something so we can win Palace.

I don't see the benefit beyond grouping certain players with each other. 2 mutually townreading townies win at all 3. A mutually townread townie and scum lose at all 3.

We can still group players in any formation

Our information is better tomorrow the less we force consensus and unless town as a whole both wants to strictly enforce it and is 3/3 correct then it is the wrong move.

Maybe bella makes the most sense as a third? The read on herta could be distancing to avoid going with him. Feels too early for a final deciscion atp, but...

I wouldn't be opposed with
(Drew/Herta/Bella)
(Taly/Meg/RR)
(Farren/Elements/Nona)

Discuss

Going through the ISO, and in hindsight this is interesting. Meg first expresses that there's benefit to organizing assignments, then says there isn't, then is the one to first propose a complete arrangement. Didn't ping me at the time because I agreed with the arrangement, but the flip-flopping is odd, and scum of course benefits greatly by having their preferred arrangement met.

[Radical Rat]

I mean why swap town for town?

A town for town swap is impossible because Meg is scum and was swapped. It unfortunately doesn't say anything about Elements though, because Elements could still either be Town or Scum.

[Radical Rat]

The original palace was either two scum or the original court was two scum.

If the original court was two scum then both rad rat and elements were scum. Elements swapping out would be the scum in that case.

If the original palace was two scum then two of nona, taly, meg were scum. Meg swapping out would be the scum in that case.

Is that correct?

You're still assuming two scum were somewhere, which we don't actually know. If they already had one scum in each location, they could have just swapped between two scum members, in which case they'd probably be hoping to push exactly this idea that one of the swap has to be Town.

[Radical Rat]

The only thing that's completely off the table is a Town/Town swap, because Meg is mechanically confirmed to be scum.

[Radical Rat]

The switch is forced. Scum cannot choose not to switch.

Meg is scum because Bella is IC and I'm Town. The setup demands there be one scum in each group. It can't be me because that's me, it can't be Bella because she's IC, so it has to be Meg.

[Radical Rat]

The switch is forced. Scum cannot choose not to switch.

Meg is scum because Bella is IC and I'm Town. The setup demands there be one scum in each group. It can't be me because that's me, it can't be Bella because she's IC, so it has to be Meg.

[Radical Rat]

During Night 1, the Insurrectionists must switch the locations of 2 CADETS such that each location contains exactly one Insurrectionist as well as choosing one cadet at the Court to be confirmed as a Devotee.
The final location assignments will be made public.

So Rat explain to me how this makes Meg scum?

Also Rat, why do you think Bella was confirmed over you? You were the consensus townread not Bella?

Meg was also a consensus townread, why Bella over them?

[Radical Rat]

During Night 1, the Insurrectionists must switch the locations of 2 CADETS such that each location contains exactly one Insurrectionist as well as choosing one cadet at the Court to be confirmed as a Devotee.
The final location assignments will be made public.

So Rat explain to me how this makes Meg scum?

Also Rat, why do you think Bella was confirmed over you? You were the consensus townread not Bella?

Meg was also a consensus townread, why Bella over them?

I don’t know why scum would confirm Bella over either of you but point taken.

And I don't know why either. Probably scum didn't trust me to mislim Bella. Or maybe they instead affirmatively thought Bella would mislim me. We'll find out when we see the scum PT

[Radical Rat]

Rat

, who should be voted in Palace?

Ironically, probably Nona. I don't think she's faking not understanding things at this point, and while I would LIKE to trust you... I also trusted Meg and now I'm paranoid I was just completely wrong

[Radical Rat]

Rat

, who should be voted in Palace?

Ironically, probably Nona. I don't think she's faking not understanding things at this point, and while I would LIKE to trust you... I also trusted Meg and now I'm paranoid I was just completely wrong

Why does

Meg's

input influence my alignment? That we are partnered?

Maybe? It's more just a shaken confidence in my reads generally than any specific associatives.

Plus knowing that Meg is scum means knowing Mafia was never in any danger of being stuck together, which makes Nona and Farren's sudden switches look... Not good, but less bad than they did D1.

[Radical Rat]

Nah, I'm not sold on

Farren

-town or

Drew

-scum. I was just thinking about how

Farren's

only notable read was townreading me D1.

I do think

Herta

is most likely town there as of this moment.

My only true argument for you scum,

Nona

, is that you and

Rat

are partnered and that's why you were okay with going into the Palace instead of

Rat

, and scumreading him as well.

But I don't know if there's a clear relationship between your alignment and

Meg's

, I see an argument either way.

Uh sorry, not really liking this. If I’m scum why does a switch even happen. So my paranoia is that if I’m wrong on you and Elements flips town, I will be miselimed. I still think you’re town but wrong but this does kind of give me bad feels. :/

Switch is mandatory. There is no world in which a switch doesn't happen.

[Radical Rat]

Nah, I'm not sold on

Farren

-town or

Drew

-scum. I was just thinking about how

Farren's

only notable read was townreading me D1.

I do think

Herta

is most likely town there as of this moment.

My only true argument for you scum,

Nona

, is that you and

Rat

are partnered and that's why you were okay with going into the Palace instead of

Rat

, and scumreading him as well.

But I don't know if there's a clear relationship between your alignment and

Meg's

, I see an argument either way.

Uh sorry, not really liking this. If I’m scum why does a switch even happen. So my paranoia is that if I’m wrong on you and Elements flips town, I will be miselimed. I still think you’re town but wrong but this does kind of give me bad feels. :/

Switch is mandatory. There is no world in which a switch doesn't happen.

No switch happened in dungeon.

Because only one switch happens. It would be impossible to have a switch affect all three locations

[Radical Rat]

You're right, but well. Scum did make that call regardless. So I guess you didn't see that until now, and are trying to turn your mistake into a defense?

Doesn't make sense for you to try this argument unless you already know Elements is flipping red though, so Palace is basically won regardless at least.

[Radical Rat]

I'm saying the main reason I thought Nona jumping into the Palace was scummy was because it looked like she was scum trying to make sure they were spread out in response to Meg's suggested grouping being a threat. I speculated on a Nona/Elements/Farren solve if you'll recall.

If Meg is scum, then that obviously can't be the case, and it would mean a hypothetical scum!Nona went out of her way to make sure scum WERE condensed. That doesn't make any sense to do

[Radical Rat]

Rat

, who should be voted in Palace?

Ironically, probably Nona. I don't think she's faking not understanding things at this point,

and while I would LIKE to trust you... I also trusted Meg and now I'm paranoid I was just completely wrong

This

really

bothers me

Rat

, because the implication is that you think

Meg/I

are S/S and you aren't even discerning our interactions.

Your suspicion of me is understandable but the rationale feels cheap as fuck.

I mean, it doesn't help that Meg's picked you as the preferred Palace vote, but also there's like. A billion layers of WIFOM here. Does Meg support their partner and risk looking aligned? Does Meg support Town to make themself look better? Does Meg support Town to frame them after their own flip?

This setup in general is just a massive winery, and I don't really know how to penetrate it tbh

[Radical Rat]

Because I'd need to reconsider a lot.

What would you need to reconsider? In our case nothing we do should change our opinion of the other?

[Radical Rat]

I think dungeon's probably Drew.

Farren jumping is weird and annoying, but the narrative Meg has of him doing so to avoid the three stack isn't possible because I was the first one here. Drew joining immediately out the gate though was probably the best way for scum to guarantee not getting caught together. Get in early, make sure no one else joins and you're good.

Unfortunately there's no external proof of this unless Elements flips green, but if she's scum she's game throwing so. Hopefully it was just Nona.

[Radical Rat]

In other news herta is now an IC.

?

If they were scum they can qh farren

Unless scum wants to delay the flip so you can sell this theory...

[Radical Rat]

In other news herta is now an IC.

?

If they were scum they can qh farren

Unless scum wants to delay the flip so you can sell this theory...

Though I guess in this case it would have to be Herta and not Drew...

Or you could just be bussing Farren. But I don't see how what he did is substantially different from what Nona did, and I doubt multiple scum would be in a hurry to out themselves that way...

[Radical Rat]

I said "hopefully" because if it wasn't Elements, it has to also not be Taly to win.

And Elements would be game throwing here because if she is scum, they just voluntarily allowed Town to win. Which if that's the case, I'll take it, but it doesn't make sense to do.

[Radical Rat]

If the team is me/Elements/Farren, why do I join Court when I know Elements and Farren are in line to join next? Why wouldn't I have pushed harder to get in the Palace? Or just offered to go Dungeon instead?

[Radical Rat]

It is, literally, throwing the game though. If you want to argue it's justified in these circumstances, maybe, but it IS throwing. And if I were scum in Elements's position, I wouldn't be doing it.

[Radical Rat]

I was probably wrong about Drew scum based on Meg's IC comment on Herta.

It could still feasibly be Farren and Meg's bussing, but bussing is probably a bad plan here? Especially if Taly is legitimately Town here, Meg would know Palace was already lost, so bussing another area would need to be some galaxy brain WIFOM shit.

[Radical Rat]

I did forget that you get silenced post-flip. Maybe it is just Elements then...

Regardless, doesn't change much

[Radical Rat]

I was probably wrong about Drew scum based on Meg's IC comment on Herta.

It could still feasibly be Farren and Meg's bussing, but bussing is probably a bad plan here? Especially if Taly is legitimately Town here, Meg would know Palace was already lost, so bussing another area would need to be some galaxy brain WIFOM shit.

I'm not trying to flip Drew anymore. I already said that I was wrong, see above.
I townread Farren precisely because bussing doesn't make sense.
Herta makes the most sense to be aligned with Meg, that's who I want to see voted in Dungeon

[Radical Rat]

Well, I've made my case.

All I can really say is that we should do Dungeon next before Court, though I believe that was already mostly decided.

But when the flips happen and it isn't Farren, hopefully that's enough to convince people

[Radical Rat]

I literally said, multiple times, Meg bussing Farren doesn't make sense.

If you want to scumread me fine, but please do at least read what I'm saying

[Radical Rat]

What more is there to talk about? It really is just pure WIFOM at this point

[Radical Rat]

If it helps her make a decision, absolutely.

And of course I'll still be answering questions if there are any.

But in terms of making new arguments or anything... I think I've covered everything there is to cover. Just comes down to who Bella trusts more for us.

And really it's the same thing for Dungeon. Since you're scum, Herta's the only possible answer, but for the people who don't know that, it again just comes down to trusting one of us over the other.

[Radical Rat]

Farren flipping Town eliminates the argument that he jumped into the Dungeon to avoid being with me and Elements.

Hammering him wins that area, but not the game since you lost Palace.

You need us to flip first, while your argument is still relevant, and then he can take the hammer.

[Radical Rat]

But Ray's already a flying squirrel

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, GG.

No redactions from me, Elements is right it's not super interesting.

This setup was significantly trickier for scum to navigate than I'd figured at first, and I made some poor decisions without thinking, and then after Nona did her thing... Well, our fate was basically sealed