Open 859 - C9++ - Postgame

[Dunnstral]

What does an impolite opening look like?

[Dunnstral]

And do you have infinity as town?

[Dunnstral]

Or to hone in a little more, why are you switching your vote from infinity to CSF?

[Dunnstral]

BBT did the same in my first game w him
I have suspicions but not in the mood to name names yet

What's this now?

ik you dislike meta but I also have zero idea what your question is actually about so look it up yourself

Why is BBT voting infinity "old news" just because they did it in another game?

[Dunnstral]

I don't like the way Lucian has responded about their read on Aisa

207 following 203 is suspicious from furtiveglance

[Dunnstral]

It seems like an inconsistency in your play that came about as a result of you being asked multiple questions.

Following the whole multiquote shows how we got to that point. First I asked about infinity and all you say is your vote is outdated, then you say that the reason you voted infinity was because they voted froggo who you townread, then you say it wasn't strong enough as a townread to mention it at the time.

[Dunnstral]

I don't like the way Lucian has responded about their read on Aisa

unsure what this is referring to -- dunn can you expand on ur thoughts abt Lucian? I would also like to know what you think about BBT and Aisa.

what do you think about the fact that BBT honed in on you for saying people were town on page 1, but not Aisa, who also said people were town on page 1?

could've swore I saw this mentioned already earlier but i can't find anything abt it. I also think this would give more info if you asked BBT instead of Lucian but thats probably NAI.

To be honest I don't remember what I was talking about with Lucian/Aisa. I probably meant 158 being a weird post with the "To make it worse".

I don't have an opinion on BBT or Aisa and don't know why you are asking me about them either.

[Dunnstral]

THINK FURTIVE THINK!
WHY WOULD

I

TAKE NOTICE OF

YOU

TALKING ABOUT COLORS?

I do know, but I don't think you really have a point. If you think you do, you can share it with the group.

I'm going to let my votes do the talking.

as for this, I'll let Dunn/Enchant (well, really just Dunn!) determine whether more is said. I believe you that it's that way on your homesite but there's something else that makes the whole deal bothersome.

It sounds like getting the color would make them not a serial killer; Except that's easily fakeable, can be a genuine mistake even if they're a serial killer based on what they've said, and we don't even know if a serial killer is in the game. What is perhaps more interesting is that they seem to be accusing other players of being a serial killer instead of mafia.

So they said:

Things are becoming clearer now. CSF/GE/Malakittens, ft. BBT/Dunnstral on drums as SK (possibly)

What is the reasoning for calling BBT/myself serial killer specifically? All they've explained it with is that they think we're suspicious, but they've never made that distinction, and they never go into why they think I am suspicious either.

[Dunnstral]

Dunn why not just ask furtive to explain the read

I literally did do that in my post

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Klick

I didn't like their arguing that Hiraki should decide the elimination and that we had info to work with because I think they know better than to push for that kind of thing on day 1. We would have little to work with if we did this. Further, I don't think that there is a lot of information to solve the game with right now and am surprised that they think otherwise, and that they are creating town/scum lists this early. Finally, I didn't like their wagon vote on CSF.

[Dunnstral]

Extremely bad read, but the creativity of it feels genuine. So there's that I guess.

why is it bad? I see a logic to it. I want furtive to try to explain before I share it tho

I also see a logic to it, which is why I said it makes furtive look genuine.

But I also think that Enchant saying "so would you follow my vote??", him being aware that his reads can be good or bad does NOT show a Town POV. It's trivial to fake. Scum is aware that reads can be good or bad, they probably think about Town's reads and think "good" or "bad" throughout the whole game.

He wasn't even faking anything, he was asking a question, right?

[Dunnstral]

Yes I am accusing them

[Dunnstral]

Hiraki doesn't seem like they want to dictate things, though, they seem like they want the day to play out normally. That wasn't really my point though, I think that Klick looks bad and no I don't know what you are talking about but you seem to be steering the conversation towards yourself which is also not what I was talking about.

[Dunnstral]

I explained why

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Klick

I didn't like their arguing that Hiraki should decide the elimination and that we had info to work with because I think they know better than to push for that kind of thing on day 1. We would have little to work with if we did this. Further, I don't think that there is a lot of information to solve the game with right now and am surprised that they think otherwise, and that they are creating town/scum lists this early. Finally, I didn't like their wagon vote on CSF.

So I've stated townreads on four players, not including myself and the IC. I've explained the Gamma townread (and I think Gamma's interactions with you just now make it even more clear that Gamma is town). Froggo, Aisa, and Infinity are townreads that I have not explained. Are there any that you're curious about in particular, or is it just a general 'how does Klick have 4 townreads on Page 13' kind of thing?

I don't think the game would be stunted for info by any means if we decided to let Hiraki control the elimination. But I also think that even if it was, that doesn't really affect our chances of eliminating scum today that much. I suspect even low-info educated guesses are more accurate than a typical D1 elimination. (My favourite argument against doing this has been Infinity's 'I'd just like to play Mafia' comment, because I feel like it captures most people's actual issue with going with a sheeping plan - their own lack of agency over the situation).

I don't like how fast you sorted people into town/willing to vote as I tend to think of you as somebody who plays things a bit slower, so it does feel like rushing to me. That and the fact that a lot of your reads here are not backed up by anything. I also think of you as somebody who would be saying "I'd like to play mafia" as well; and I don't think that having Hiraki dictate the elimination is that great of a play.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Dunnstral
Yeah I’m not just gonna let you play dumb.

OK. I on the other hand have no issues with allowing you to do so.

[Dunnstral]

I don't like how fast you sorted people into town/willing to vote as I tend to think of you as somebody who plays things a bit slower, so it does feel like rushing to me. That and the fact that a lot of your reads here are not backed up by anything. I also think of you as somebody who would be saying "I'd like to play mafia" as well; and I don't think that having Hiraki dictate the elimination is that great of a play.

The reason I typically play things slower is because most games move much faster than I can keep up with; in contrast, this game has been much more reasonably paced and I've been able to play in the moment a bit. Before the big spike in average game activity over the last couple of years, you'll see games from me that more closely match this pace. Part of this could also be that this is a Mini-sized game instead of a Large, so having opinions on 4-5 people feels a lot more substantial than it does in a larger game.

At the same time, I feel like we've got a decent amount of content so far from almost every slot. Mala and Enchant haven't really been around, but other than them I feel like everyone's had some amount of impact on the game so far. And I'm satisfied with the reads that I have developed. Aisa feels clearly town to me, so does Gamma. I'd be pretty impressed if froggo was scum. Infinity I'm a bit less confident in, but 275/285 both felt really good to me. For what we've got to work with, I'm happy with my reads.

What makes you think I'd typically rather play D1 normally than do something like follow Hiraki?

This is pretty compelling reasoning for why you would be playing differently. I don't like how vague you've been with your townreads here.

UNVOTE:

I don't have any confident reads, also I'm not ready to end the day yet, the game just started.

I don't have a good answer for your last question, I just didn't think that you would push for that.

[Dunnstral]

Do you have questions to me?

no

Hiraki doesn't seem like they want to dictate things, though, they seem like they want the day to play out normally.

i said this after so i don't like how this is phrased at all

No... you didn't?

[Dunnstral]

I take the above back, you did say that in 318. Not sure what you think is wrong with my post.

[Dunnstral]

This is pretty compelling reasoning for why you would be playing differently. I don't like how vague you've been with your townreads here.

UNVOTE:

I don't have any confident reads, also I'm not ready to end the day yet, the game just started.

I don't have a good answer for your last question, I just didn't think that you would push for that.

Would you say that this vagueness is different from other times you've seen me in any particular way? I feel as though this is an intrinsic, almost intentional part of my current play style, so it's curious to me that you're interested in it here in particular.

I also don't want to end the day yet, if that wasn't clear

I just compared to not quite normal multiball and I guess you were pretty vague there too early on, relatively

[Dunnstral]

Is Aisa claiming that they have a pt where they post reaction images but nobody else is in it?

[Dunnstral]

Something is off here, complete cognitive dissonance from Froggo. This only works if it's s/s of course, but if one of them flips red, the other needs to go immediately.

Froggo and Infinity, or Froggo and Gamma?

[Dunnstral]

Can you remind me why you suspect me

[Dunnstral]

Is Aisa claiming that they have a pt where they post reaction images but nobody else is in it?

Yeah like a notes or personal PT. Where were you going with this questioning?

It doesn't make sense to me

[Dunnstral]

It strikes me as odd, yes

[Dunnstral]

I liked what BBT was pushing before they backed off.

VOTE: Malakittens

[Dunnstral]

Errr is that first sentence related to the Mala vote?

No

It strikes me as odd, yes

how?????

Because it is odd.

[Dunnstral]

Creating reaction images and posting them to a pt you only have access to is not the same thing as taking notes, and I think it is disingenuous to compare the two. I know why somebody would take notes - it can help them sort through the game, maybe help them notice things they haven't noticed before. It's a tool to aid them. Reaction images? They didn't just save this to their computer, they uploaded it to imgur or a similar image hosting site and then pasted it into their pt. That's what doesn't make sense to me.

[Dunnstral]

what's odd is your lack of ability to accept that someone would shitpost in a thread on they are posting in

That's not what I said

[Dunnstral]

I'm not sure how you managed to twist this into me being old and out of touch, but no the vast majority of players do not do this.

[Dunnstral]

Errr is that first sentence related to the Mala vote?

No

Why Mala over Enchant?

Enchant is always low content so I have them as null. It is my belief that Mala tends to be lower content as mafia, and upon review of their iso their vote on Enchant comes after Enchant votes for them, and I'm not seeing a reason for it, plus the wagon was already going by then. I think Malakittens looks worse. I also think it's possible scum could be hiding behind "let's sheep the ic" to justify their votes today.

Do you have a reason to vote for Enchant over Mala?

[Dunnstral]

I'm not trying to assert anything, I'm responding to your questions.

[Dunnstral]

You asked me "what even is the relevance of this?"

You are the one who is intent to continue to continue the conversation. The only post I made that wasn't in response to somebody else was 466.

With that in mind, I am the one in position to be asking you what the relevance of this is. 466 is a question/observation, I made that post on my own. Posts 637, 639, 643, 645, 648, 650, 664 are in response to posts other players have made asking me about it.

[Dunnstral]

Roleblocker isn't guaranteed by the setup mate

[Dunnstral]

Gamma, Lucian, Infinity, Aisa, they might all want to say something before the day ends.

[Dunnstral]

What does lemoned mean?

[Dunnstral]

I'm interested in your take on whether Enchant could be telling the truth here Dunn

I am leaning towards eliminating them; I think they slipped that their team has a roleblocker on it.

[Dunnstral]

enchant needs to die and i think a night phase would help me get more engaged regardless

What specifically made you think Enchant needs death?

claim is really scummy and it's pretty difficult to actually resolve with massclaim because there could be 0 or 2 doctors.

If there were two doctors one would be 1-shot and Enchant's claim would be proven

[Dunnstral]

Eh

There can be two full doctors but it's pretty unlikely if you look at the setup, doctor has to be rolled three times

[Dunnstral]

I've played with Enchant before and this kind of play is very typical for them as both alignments. I was under the impression that they were being voted out because they were doing nothing - an angle that I was not personally interested in because I've seen this from Enchant as town before.

959 feels sort of revisionist. If Enchant is different in this game from Terminator, why was that not called out before his elimination? I instead feel that they were voted out mainly for doing nothing, not for looking different from his town game

[Dunnstral]

I think that Furtiveglance looks pretty suspicious based on how they interacted with enchant yesterday.

Klick, what makes you think otherwise?

[Dunnstral]

Actually, I changed my mind about furtive, I don't think they look that bad. Klick, do you think that 475 is anti-partner indicative between BBT and froggo? (I do)

[Dunnstral]

Surprised to see people saying this was a bad kill or even a vig shoot -- to me this is pretty obviously a low info kill which I find usually indicates that mafia are playing very well in the day and so they can sacrifice a potential suspect like Mala in order to keep the gamestate the same.

Like the only Mafia I can see making this kill is... possibly you? It's too out of left field for anyone else

Explain? I wouldn't make this kill, I genuinely thought I'd be shit on at the start of this day and so I as mafia would probably kill whoever would look best after I flip red and try to talk my way out of the elim as best as possible.

But this isn't a great argument since it only really applies if you already trust me.

Do you have any idea of what players would be in position to make a kill like this in this game based on your reasoning?

[Dunnstral]

Actually, I changed my mind about furtive, I don't think they look that bad. Klick, do you think that 475 is anti-partner indicative between BBT and froggo? (I do)

I'm pretty satisfied with that post being about a scumbuddy - but I'm interested in why you think otherwise. He puts some effort into casing froggo, but it doesn't really go anywhere.

It would mean BBT would be drawing attention to one scum buddy before voting for the other one, which while possible does not feel like the most likely series of events. Also this attention on Froggo sort of came out of nowhere so I'm not sure why they would do that as mafia partners.

[Dunnstral]

The case on enchant was never "enchant is not doing anything"

It was "enchant is doing less than usual"

And based on my experiences that's not true; I've always seen them post at about this rate

[Dunnstral]

I think speculating on an sk when there was only 1 kill is foolish

We have no reason to think they can exist

[Dunnstral]

Basically, I'm softing Serial Killer so that we can chill on each other and vote town together.

Why did you say this though?

[Dunnstral]

Explanation for this read progression on Enchant would be good

i explained this already right? doc claim was obviously awful and needed to be resolved at some point, and massclaim doesn't necessarily help. like if there's no other doc claim do we leave enchant alive?

Why was it obviously awful?

[Dunnstral]

scum claims pr there 100% of the time, and doctor claim is one of the safest since there's no info you have to report and be held accountable for

A doctor also claims doctor 100% of the time in that scenario, too.

I'm struggling to understand your 'Enchant is 100% scum because they claimed Doc' after not being interested in elimming them at all.

I agree with this sentiment

[Dunnstral]

It took you an hour and that's what you came back with?

[Dunnstral]

Running to work right now, Infinity looks towny to me and I don't have time to get into why. Last page or two of Infinity content was really good though and I'm surprised people aren't seeing it themselves. I'm beginning to lean town on Dunn, which concerns me because unless it's like exactly froggo/BBT then I think I've gone wrong somewhere.

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what BBT is saying which makes me think they are town, that and I still feel that he does not feel paired with Froggo

[Dunnstral]

@furtive, have you ever elaborated on your Dunn read/vote? If not, can you?

I'll scumcase Dunnstral when I come back in about an hour.

Dunnstral's voting record is Klick and Malakittens, both yesterday. From what I gathered of their actual reads, they've sussed Lucian once and me twice. I have no idea who they think is mafia right now, they aren't voting, just making really pointless reads like BBT/Froggo aren't paired.

No, I went out for an hour and then looked at your 48 post ISO for a few minutes. I would've quoted but I didn't find much of note.

Who are your scumreads?

Is this the progression of what you were doing? I take issue with you calling me scum and then looking for reasons why afterwards.

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, you think both Infinity and Froggo can be scum together?

I have both low in my reads but have not thought about this. I see that Froggo is voting for Infinity right now which would be bold if they were scum together. So I am leaning towards no that doesn't seem likely. Actually other than that there isn't anything that makes me think they're not scum together, so maybe this is too shallow.

[Dunnstral]

They both sat on my wagon pretty much all of D1. Do you think both scum co-ordinate and sit together like that?

I don't think this is a good reason to say they cannot be aligned; I could see two mafia voting together on day 1. That's not to say that I necessarily think they are aligned though, I just don't agree with this

[Dunnstral]

put me to e-1 and claim intent or get off me, make up ur mind town >:P i better wake up to one of these things happening

VOTE: froggodoggo

Intent

[Dunnstral]

I think this is a fake claim. I believe that froggodoggo has had an inconsistent thought process if their role were a 1-shot doctor in two seperate occasions.

The first inconsistency is that they allowed Enchant to actually get eliminated. They flipped scum, but for all they knew they were actually doctor. Why not back them up with their own

claim

and not essentially lip service if you are a 1-shot doctor.

The second inconsistency is their analysis of the Malakittens kill. They immediately jumped to thinking that the mafia team killed Malakittens. If they were a 1-shot doctor, they would know a normal doctor exists and could have stopped a kill.

[Dunnstral]

No no I'm pretty sure this kill was made by mafia lol. Let's please hold off with any claiming.

Okay, we don't have to agree. But most kills are made by mafia and I see little reason to think this is not one of them. I also think you could very, very easily be scum Klick. Your reaction to Enchant's claim was very out of the ordinary and looks like you were trying to gain cred by being on the vote. But otherwise I've liked your other posts and deem this something to revisit later in the game if we happen to be there.

These posts don't make any sense if froggodoggo knows that there is a doctor in the setup. Especially the line "I see little reason to think this is not one of them" from froggodoggo seems to be in direct opposition to the fact that they would actually have a reason to think that on the basis of their role.

[Dunnstral]

Bye Bye~

VOTE: Enchant

Spoiler:

Wait, you didn't just "let them get voted out", you actually hammered them.

[Dunnstral]

Good shot Klick