Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[fireisredsir]

third

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VOTE: GeorgeBailey

hey i know this guy, he's the legendary supervillain from the Datisi Mafia Game Cinematic Universe lore

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VOTE: fireisred
That is a lie. you can't be 3rd so far. only maf lie. easy got one.

check who made the third post tho!!

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alternate theory: catboi was first

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That there at 7 VTs, 3 masons and 3 mafia...maybe.

sheeping andante first on her vote and then on this post? pocket attempt spotted

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vulture kinda locktown for being willing to take the hurt that will come from proposing that tbh

[fireisredsir]

vulture kinda locktown for being willing to take the hurt that will come from proposing that tbh

hard disagree with that statement

exactly my point

[fireisredsir]

My vote is serious now. Datisi straight avoiding me

so, would you say it's not a joke vote?

[fireisredsir]

It's very reactionary.

do you think that makes her more likely to be scum?

[fireisredsir]

vulture kinda locktown for being willing to take the hurt that will come from proposing that tbh

i kinda like this post except for the "kinda" and "tbh" tbh.

well you're kinda gonna have to get used to that tbh

[fireisredsir]

It's very reactionary.

do you think that makes her more likely to be scum?

Very nominally so. I have like half a game of experience with Andante scum and no experience with Andante town so I'm going to be calibrating based on that half a game and it kind of jives with that i think.

having no experience with andante town makes that slightly more reasonable of an opinion so ill maybe be willing to give it a pass for now

[fireisredsir]

baltar seems a little stiff but i don't know if that's actually scummy

[fireisredsir]

fire feels very reasonable. too reasonable.

i think im just a kinda reasonable person tbh

[fireisredsir]

your words sound like you should be joking but your tone sounds like you are making these posts while held at gunpoint

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wait I wrote the wrong name oops

VOTE: VP Baltar

nah, you had it right

is implosion scum?

[fireisredsir]

Pagebottom

this is innovative. i should have been trying to get these the whole time

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wait I wrote the wrong name oops

VOTE: VP Baltar

nah, you had it right

is implosion scum?

implosion is always scum

what about in this game? serious question

[fireisredsir]

I think Fire is probably mafia

sorry fire!

thats okay im used to it :>

[fireisredsir]

do...do you actually think that i was serious?

i thought 98 felt off and i wanted to see if you had an actual read or not

if you were 0% serious then i think 98 is a little awkward

if you were, like, 5% serious then i could see it fitting, but id want to know where that 5% is coming from

i don't think you're more than 5% serious but the distinction between 0 and 5 is meaningful in this case

[fireisredsir]

it takes 7 votes to elim

you're the 3rd vote

why are you scared of someone quickhammering at this point? you did the same with implosion on 3 votes

[fireisredsir]

it takes 7 votes to elim

you're the 3rd vote

why are you scared of someone quickhammering at this point? you did the same with implosion on 3 votes

3 votes is a scary thing!!! that's a lot!!!

do you think im 0% chance town or not?

[fireisredsir]

im not used to town you being scared of there being 3 votes on someone else. feels weird

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: andante

[fireisredsir]

vp sounds normal again

whoever was holding a gun to his head must have gotten bored and left

[fireisredsir]

dw i will be back shortly

ngl i briefly had a fun theory that you rolled scum together and you were like "baltar baltar get in the thread we have to do theatre" and he was like on a stressful work phone call or something but through gritted teeth made the effort to slam out some posts to meet the theatre quota, and that's why they felt stiff and un-relaxed

[fireisredsir]

why the heck did I just gain 2 votes?

the way you backed off from committing to the wagon very quickly and the disconnect between having confidence in your gutread but lack of conviction in your vote all felt very un-town-andante-like

[fireisredsir]

exactly that's where him being stressed and busy fits in

i don't actually think the theory holds up, sadly

[fireisredsir]

UNVOTE:

hmm ok now andante feels more normal

[fireisredsir]

UNVOTE:

hmm ok now andante feels more normal

what is "normal" for andante? I would LOVE to hear this one lol like, cause I was just having fun in RVS (the phase I HATE) that made me maf? "how dare there be no reads thus far!!!"

you seemed kinda awkward and lacking conviction in a weird way, like you didn't really want to be put on the spot. your more recent longer posts feel like i can see the andante thought process that im more used to

[fireisredsir]

idk if andante is town or scum but i'm enjoying her play. it's so in-the-moment. i strive to live every day like that

maybe implo is mafia

what's your reason for thinking implosion maf?

people who try to make andante happy are usually mafia

idk if andante is town or scum but i'm enjoying her play. it's so in-the-moment. i strive to live every day like that

this makes me so happy!!!!

Andante you are a treasure

maf

[fireisredsir]

+town points to ari for this line of thought probably.

this is p weak, thats an easy thing for ari to pick on as maf

that said i do think its maybe slightly +town for her to do it right after trying to make andante happy herself. seems a little cheeky

[fireisredsir]

i think andante is probably town for now, the way she sometimes gets knocked down a little by someone finding her suspicious or something but she keeps popping back up anyway makes me feel like she's excited to be here and solve things. still think the fear of wagons early was weird but ive wrongly scumread town andante for a very similar feeling in the past

datisi feels like town to me, probably. mild worry that it could be bc he's going out of his way to seem town, but we'll save that for later, he can be town for now

gamma feels a little scummy to me, feels more like trying to establish presence than hunt scum

still think penguin's posting was awkward but the read feels too much like certain early reads of mine that often end up being wrong for me to care strongly about it

i don't think i really have strong feelings on anyone else yet. in general not a lot has stood out for me from this game so far, which is kinda odd, but happens sometimes. maybe i should feel some sort of connection to gamma feeling similarly re: blandness and townread him for that, idk

[fireisredsir]

implo reads not at all like how he did in my previous game with him, where i incorrectly scumread him. maybe its the new avatar or the fact that the other game had a lot of mech stuff to talk about, but if i didn't see the name i would think this was a completely different person

im not really sure what to make of that

[fireisredsir]

he feels like he's trying to be "sensible" and that's a scum tell for him.

i don't really get this impression, which posts make you think that?

he seems the usual amount of not that sensible to me. maybe he's just trying and not succeeding tho

[fireisredsir]

@fire, what game was that?

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89137

[fireisredsir]

implo reads not at all like how he did in my previous game with him, where i incorrectly scumread him. maybe its the new avatar or the fact that the other game had a lot of mech stuff to talk about, but if i didn't see the name i would think this was a completely different person

im not really sure what to make of that

I absolutely would have scumread me that game if it had been a regular game, iirc I was thinking so at the time. Like, my posting patterns and everything. I honestly was playing like,

drastically

closer to my scum meta than my town meta, because I was a muse. It felt like I needed to sort of "pick my battles" and make a conscious decision about which opinions I'd say and when so as to not give anything away.

ok thats a good point, the whole muse thing could account for a lot of that difference, and i think that is exactly the sort of difference i was thinking of

[fireisredsir]

this description of me feels apt but do you have any opinions on anything I've said thus far?

not really, the only thing that stood out was the comment about things being bland, which i can relate to on some level

none of the rest really felt like anything that anyone else would care about following up on, myself included, and that on its own is a little bit scummy as well. not that the thoughts don't matter, just that they seem p inoffensive and unengaging. you asked andante about her read on me and then answered your own question by reading further. you asked her about SS in 356 and when she responded you gave the most noncommittal reaction of all time with "eh i can see it"

it kinda feels like you're just going through the motions. which tbh isn't 100% scummy to feel that way if you found the game uninspiring, i did too a bit, but what i found scummy was that it seemed like you felt an obligation to do it anyway. that can come from town too but i think its more likely to come from scum

[fireisredsir]

forget what I said earlier, fire is town

is it bc i posted a big paragraph that you looked at and went "uhhh wow" and moved on

[fireisredsir]

also I think if I'm scum feeling this way about the game I don't really throw myself into things the way I have, which is also why I voted vulture, because it feels like she's doing what I would be doing as scum here

so you think you would be taking on more of a sitting back and observing role if you were scum here?

[fireisredsir]

oh god did you two roll scum together >_>

i did think datisi's reaction to my mostly joking theory about them being scum together was slightly awkward and took it too seriously while also laughing at it

maybe i was onto something

[fireisredsir]

its ok tho, no need to sort datisi yet. we just have to wait until he has enough posts and then we can run a sentiment analyzer on them

[fireisredsir]

i unironically had a thought briefly that you could be intentionally trying to have a more positive tone this game

[fireisredsir]

i unironically had a thought briefly that you could be intentionally trying to have a more positive tone this game

i wish i was half as good of a scum player that you make me out to be

kind of a weird response actually

like i could accept that it isn't something you would do as scum bc it would actually be a little nuts to do that

but i don't think it would be hard for you to do?

[fireisredsir]

ok thats fair i think

[fireisredsir]

Hai.

hello!

[fireisredsir]

Hai.

hello!

Hewwo.

what do you think of gamma so far?

[fireisredsir]

fewer andante votes

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the general lack of wagons and voting in this game is kinda weird actually, maybe thats contributing to the blandness

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[fireisredsir]

if wanting to vote andante for that tier list is wrong, i don't wanna be right

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wait i think i said that backwards

you get the idea

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imo vp is just upset that he's in the "These are some people in the game. That they are!! I wonder why they're the same tier though.." tier

[fireisredsir]

is andante really your strongest scumread?

[fireisredsir]

is andante really your strongest scumread?

It's where my vote is.

Why are you town reading her again?

362

and yes i don't really think her finding specific things in posts that she focuses on, resulting sometimes in not really accurate perceptions of them, is scummy for her

[fireisredsir]

yeah vp having that response to that tier list is honestly among the most wild things i've seen in mafia games.

Glad to be No.1!

I find the tiers list to be tryharding LAMIST more than actual scumhunting or providing insight into her thought process.

if she was tryharding LAMIST why wouldn't she just make a normal tier list?

saying its not actual scumhunting or providing insight into her thought process is just... i mean, yes? it's intentionally obfuscated and unhelpful bc it's funny. your implication seems to be that it is supposed to LOOK like it's useful but actually isn't, when like, i think the fact that it isn't is p surface level already

[fireisredsir]

your implication seems to be that it is supposed to LOOK like it's useful but actually isn't, when like, i think the fact that it isn't is p surface level already

No, not at all. The goal, fmpov, was to be funny. It's a social game type post.

Look at her now trying to spin it as useful because it generated discussion. The goal is to buy good will, not find scum.

I could just see that from a mile away as soon as she posted it.

thought 1: ok thank you this is much more reasonable

thought 2: maybe ari has a point

[fireisredsir]

i didn't find VP's case on andante to be super convincing (like, yes, they are true things that he pointed out, but i don't really see why they are more likely to come from scum andante)

andante's response is not really what i would expect though, so hmm

[fireisredsir]

^ This. So I'm not town because I don't post that much? I understand though, I don't like lurkers too! Speaking of, Malakittens hasn't posted yet has she?

idk if i mentioned this or if i decided i didn't care enough, but while we're on the hut subject this is prob the one thing from them that looks more like new-ish scum than new-ish town to me

the like slightly awkward acknowledging that the pattern of play is scummy while redirecting onto someone else

nothing else really stood out to me or looked that different from their approach in their town game

[fireisredsir]

i was about to type out a vote on fire, and then i remembered my one (1) reason to townlean fire

give me your hottest take on the game, please

my hottest take is that the game is boring but i think thats actually kind of a cold take

alignment related im p sure gamma is scum, which is maybe a boring take but nobody else seems to be looking in that direction so that makes it hot

idk i don't have a lot of opinions i care about here

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also im probably contributing to the game being boring by not being very active so i shouldn't really complain!

[fireisredsir]

let's goooo game is less boring now!!

[fireisredsir]

also I think if I'm scum feeling this way about the game I don't really throw myself into things the way I have, which is also why I voted vulture, because it feels like she's doing what I would be doing as scum here

so you think you would be taking on more of a sitting back and observing role if you were scum here?

yeah

i think this is just straight up not true btw

[fireisredsir]

@fire what are your thoughts on VP's scum case on me?

i think the things he's pointing out are in fact there, but i don't really see why those things make you more likely to be scum. i don't think he's much more likely to be scum for it but idk

[fireisredsir]

it doesn't feel substantive enough to be real suspicion and it's not funny enough to be a joke

i agree with the point you're making overall, that vp felt like he was doing something out of obligation rather than genuinely being into it

but i think this line is funny bc it makes it sound like if vp were just better at being funny with his jokes then he wouldn't be suspicious here

which may actually be also true

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: implosion

I'll just go here I guess

do you think that was towny from gamma?

[fireisredsir]

what made you decide to move vote then?

[fireisredsir]

this feels kind of townie

has anyone seen Gamma do this as mafia?

i can't find a specific example that really matches, but it does feel more like his maf game than his town game to me, in the way that i think it slightly misses on the tone it's trying to hit, and feels over-exaggerated

ig it does happen as town sometimes too so idk

[fireisredsir]

i guess i don't really get that feeling at all of it being sincere but maybe thats cause i already thought he was scum

[fireisredsir]

this feels kind of townie

has anyone seen Gamma do this as mafia?

i can't find a specific example that really matches, but it does feel more like his maf game than his town game to me, in the way that i think it slightly misses on the tone it's trying to hit, and feels over-exaggerated

ig it does happen as town sometimes too so idk

What examples are you using for each

some of what i remember from your posting in slaughter hour, plus you said this as scum but i think it was honest

typically exaggerating my feelings is how I play as scum

and on the town side, was looking through a few town games and didn't always find it, but i think your posting on page 1 of your iso here in your argument with pooky viewtopic.php?p=13132764&user_select%5B ... #p13132764 hits kinda similar tonal points that i naturally gutread as fake (in that case, it would be wrong to do so)

i don't put a ton of stock into that specific aspect of the read anyway cause im sometimes wrong on tone feeling faked

[fireisredsir]

fireisredsir, whomst is scum.

why's that

[fireisredsir]

fireisredsir, whomst is scum.

why's that

I'll get to examining it in more depth but at a glance it feels like you've been playing the game without really being involved/invested, plus your play just feels different from chromavalon (though ofc that game is imperfect for meta, but more likely to be valid for a VT than a muse. and also i reserve the right to completely flip on this if i actually get around to rereading that game).

accurate, i don't feel very invested and likely will continue to be p low effort for the next week or two. does that make me scum?

[fireisredsir]

fair enough

[fireisredsir]

i read a lot of slaughter hour for fun (ive read quite a few past games), i did not play in it

[fireisredsir]

will continue to be p low effort for the next week or two.

Why?

non game related reasons

[fireisredsir]

Actually eh I'm maybe willing to softly call S_S town too.

I found the way SS poked back at ari to be slightly townie.

agreed, i think, but i don't really know what to look for from scum SS

[fireisredsir]

understanding vulture more now has made the tr for the intro mechanics post go away

in fact i think its very slightly +scum, only bc i think they're more likely to be on the level of "do surface level scummy thing because people will townread me for it eventually and it makes early scumreads look shallow" than the level of "do that for the purposes of prompting discussion and inciting reactions to make people easier to sort", but that's way too predicting-the-approach-of-someone-i-dont-actually-know-that-well for me to have confidence in it

but anyway, that early read doesn't really matter, i think their latest thoughts have been good and p closely align with how im viewing things for the most part? and i think thats a good sign. 778 and 781 and 786 are good posts imo, show thought and nuance and i mostly agree with them and don't feel particularly performative either

so vulture town imo

[fireisredsir]

datisi whats your read on hut now? and can you give me like a lot of words when you explain it pls i really just would like a lot of words from you on hut specifically :>

[fireisredsir]

Can't believe people are fighting me on this scummy mess

what

how is that scummy

[fireisredsir]

i would be IMPRESSED at the completeness of the voice change if it was koba

[fireisredsir]

datisi whats your read on hut now? and can you give me like a lot of words when you explain it pls i really just would like a lot of words from you on hut specifically :>

the short version is still scummy but i don't wanna be wasting my time voting there when the vote seemingly does not pressure them or make them post more

i am assuming you're asking more words because you are suspecting we are scumbuddies, and for that you will have to wait a few hours until i get home. i can bullshit out a detailed analysis of every single one of their posts if it's necessary, try me

detailed analysis is not necessary i mostly wanted to see how you'd respond to that

but yea i kinda thought they could be a wiz

it was just a passing thought tho i don't strongly believe in it!! im happy to stay comfortably pocketed for now :>

[fireisredsir]

have you played with andante much before? it just sounds like andante to me

[fireisredsir]

ok and what will that accomplish for her to progress scum wincon?

[fireisredsir]

i don't really mind pressure on andante, btw, i think it's useful. i don't really think most of the reasons for why she's scum are very good so far, and im still mostly leaning town, but her responses to the pressure are a little sus at times

[fireisredsir]

i kinda did for a bit, but i don't anymore. ari was leaning town for similar reasons iirc but idk how strong of a read it was

[fireisredsir]

i think that hut's initial relatively shallow reasons for scumreading people wasn't scummy bc they did similar as town

i do think that hut's continued focus on vulture's entrance as a reason for their strongest SR, and not really engaging with the rest of vulture's content except as a way to respond about that one single point, is kinda scummy. maybe more than kinda, even. as town they did start shallow but continued finding new things to poke at and respond to

[fireisredsir]

So I'm not town because I don't post that much? I understand though, I don't like lurkers too! Speaking of, Malakittens hasn't posted yet has she?

I think the only slot I can meta is Mala. I played with Mala last game. Mala was lurking but she turned out to be Town so Mala!lurker doesn't equate to Mala!scum. But then again, I don't like lurkers. So for me, lurking can be a scum strategy, but given my meta on her, I'll let her go at least for now.

actually these two in combination is p sus as well

[fireisredsir]

oh yea BH did make that whole meta case about her responding more harshly to being incorrectly scumread when she's town, hm

[fireisredsir]

So I'm not town because I don't post that much? I understand though, I don't like lurkers too! Speaking of, Malakittens hasn't posted yet has she?

I think the only slot I can meta is Mala. I played with Mala last game. Mala was lurking but she turned out to be Town so Mala!lurker doesn't equate to Mala!scum. But then again, I don't like lurkers. So for me, lurking can be a scum strategy, but given my meta on her, I'll let her go at least for now.

actually these two in combination is p sus as well

For what reason? I can think of a reason but want to know if it's what you're thinking

my reason is that they redirected accusations of lurking onto another slot, Mala, one that they later mentioned they had meta of her lurking as town. bringing her up specifically as the one to redirect on makes it feel to me like they knew that she was likely to continue lurking as town and thus would be an easy push to make

it doesn't really make sense from town bc i don't know why you make the first quote when you already have the knowledge in the second quote

[fireisredsir]

and you mislimmed her at the end anyway fire >.>

hey if i was only listening to him, he told me to never ever elim std, so. gotta be wrong on one of em

[fireisredsir]

it is on the nose but having read their town game i don't really see any reason to believe they wouldn't be on the nose as scum

[fireisredsir]

with mala i think it is slightly different bc here people aren't really saying "mala is lurking, she lurks as scum, therefore she's scum", they're more saying "mala is lurking, lurking is scummy, therefore she's scum". the first point is one that she would take issue with, the second one much less so. then again idk if she's even read enough to know which is going on here

[fireisredsir]

ig gamma used meta but i thought that was scummy of him anyway so lol idk

[fireisredsir]

with mala i think it is slightly different bc here people aren't really saying "mala is lurking, she lurks as scum, therefore she's scum", they're more saying "mala is lurking, lurking is scummy, therefore she's scum". the first point is one that she would take issue with, the second one much less so. then again idk if she's even read enough to know which is going on here

I don't think either of these are what they're saying at all? They're saying "mala is lurking, in a towngame she reacted much differently to being pushed for lurking, therefore she's scum"

ik what ari is saying. im talking about the distinction between the "being pushed for lurking" in the two games, so the earlier reasons for mala suspicions, not the current ones. in the linked game people were specifically making the argument that she had lurked it out a lot in recent scumgames, and that specifically was what she responded to emotionally, the idea that lurking was AI for her based on her meta

[fireisredsir]

the gamma point was a follow up to my post not a response to yours

[fireisredsir]

889 and 890 are not relevant to mala's response bc she hasn't responded to them

[fireisredsir]

ig gamma used meta but i thought that was scummy of him anyway so lol idk

this feels incredibly disingenuous
what do you think I do as town?

using meta wasn't what was scummy, i assumed that was obvious tho

the scummy thing (in 765) was piggybacking on someone else's suspicion and pushing it along by saying that she was similarly lurky in a scum game you played with her, without any consideration for whether she's lurky as town. that second part could just be bad play, people do it all the time, but the way it was following and pushing someone else's read forward felt opportunistic and scummy to me

[fireisredsir]

893 is a very townie post and i will be kind of sad if fireisredsir is red

Spoiler:

[fireisredsir]

I also played in a game where she was kinda lurky as town and I wouldn't say it was similar to this or PYP

then that would have been useful info to bring up at the time, and doing so unprompted prob would have made it less scummy!

idk what relevance your town meta has here? i wasn't making a meta point about you

[fireisredsir]

I also played in a game where she was kinda lurky as town and I wouldn't say it was similar to this or PYP

then that would have been useful info to bring up at the time, and doing so unprompted prob would have made it less scummy!

idk what relevance your town meta has here? i wasn't making a meta point about you

you keep saying you think I do x thing as scum but you've said nothing about what you think I do as town, so I'm curious what your baseline for my townplay is here

generally more content to watch things happen without feeling a need to insert yourself into them and comment on things just for the sake of commenting on them. the way you express your thoughts as town feels more natural as well imo, and you don't seem concerned with getting townread

i don't have a very strong meta distinction tho, bc that comes more from playing live and ive only really read things, so meta isn't really something im leaning on for the read

[fireisredsir]

FireisRedSir where are you

we got some work to do now.

Spoiler:

having a slight identity crisis, no time for mafia!!

there's a few things i wanted to respond to/talk about but i will do so later. i like there being a hut wagon and will join there and so should datisi. i think that them continuing to hang on to vulture's entrance as basically their one single reason to scumread anyone is just too much like how ive seen new-ish scum struggle to get their footing in the past

VOTE: hutmeil

[fireisredsir]

hi std!!

love to see the town energy this time around, i missed it

[fireisredsir]

I'd say that first point is accurate sometimes but not always
I tend to hang back as town more if the playerlist of a game is larger, as I tend to struggle to sort in those instances until a good number of flips occur
this game is a bit of an off case where my natural instinct would have been to be dormant but I felt compelled to act instead
also I feel like I do the commentary thing a lot as both alignments, I have worked to curb it a little but I still struggle with it unless I focus on curtailing it in a specific game

So to expand on this, a part of my desire to actually make a difference this game is that there was another game (that just finished) where I made a rather sloppy entrance and it put me on the wrong foot for the entire time I was in the game
So I felt like throwing myself in a bit harder would help avoid that

ok so this post threw me a lil bit

bc like the main reason i was scumreading you was that it felt like you were posting out a of a sense of obligation, like you needed to get townread, and to me that's what i would expect you to do as scum

but then this is like... a very valid explanation for why you would have that kind of energy as town

but THEN i don't get why you would say in 442 that you would hang back more as scum. like... wouldn't you still feel that same pressure to get townread, and maybe even more so since you knew that it got you scumread in that game?

so idk on one hand i can see a world where you would do that as town. but some of it still doesn't really add up for me. so, still scumleaning, but less sold than i was

[fireisredsir]

on mala... eh, idk

i thought her catchup posts were fine? i can kinda see the points for it feeling a little too sterile but i don't really think it makes her scum. ive already talked about the reaction to being voted and why i don't think it's really the same, and datisi still being on that point anyway without ever engaging with the points i made while also saying i was ignoring mala is kinda ehhh

[fireisredsir]

i also just don't really think scum mala engages with andante in that way after seeing how she engaged with her in the dance game, but could be wrong on that

[fireisredsir]

I think my approach would differ as scum because my objectives are completely different

ok, and wouldn't one of those objectives be getting townread?

[fireisredsir]

ive already talked about the reaction to being voted and why i don't think it's really the same, and datisi still being on that point anyway without ever engaging with the points i made while also saying i was ignoring mala is kinda ehhh

? where did you say that?

900 and 905

[fireisredsir]

but like, not enough people are interested in this slot so i guess i'm gonna leave it alone and hope i manage to solve it later somehow

this is just very weird to me

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: fireisredsir
His read on me feels rather tepid, like he’s afraid to 100% commit to calling me scum

yes...? i mean, idk what i would be afraid of, it would be easier to be 100% committed to a read as scum than actually try to give things a fair evaluation and not tunnel. you are right than im not 100% convinced but that's not a scumtell

[fireisredsir]

but like, not enough people are interested in this slot so i guess i'm gonna leave it alone and hope i manage to solve it later somehow

this is just very weird to me

why

bc you're putting the read aside but putting the responsibility of that on other people. like, you are perfectly capable of reading the gamestate and seeing that a few people have suspicion there. if you want to get people interested in the slot, why not wagon there?

the answer you have ready is that you are more sus of mala. that's fine. but then why say this in the first place? just say that it isn't your strongest scumread. why shift the blame onto others for your lack of pressuring the slot?

[fireisredsir]

Basically I SRd Vulture for them suggesting an early Mason reveal because it's more beneficial to scum than town. Others hated my stand and that's why it's controversial.

i don't think people hate your stance on that. it's a reasonable opinion to have and i kinda townread you at first for having it bc it fit with what I've seen from your previous towngame

what is suspicious to me is that your scumread on vulture seems to be entirely based on that one point. that's like a fine point to rvs scumread someone for, but it feels like you're afraid or unable to produce new and unique content and that's why you're hanging on that one singular point. i don't really see you noticing new things, engaging with the main direction of the game unprompted, or reacting to people's posts that aren't about yourself. i do see that you did these things in your towngame

if you're town, just... respond to things that catch your eye, point out posts that you feel influence your read on people, stuff like that. and if it feels natural and genuine, then maybe ill see that. but for now, i don't

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: fire

I'm not sure if I'm just biased against you somehow :<

your vote against hut just feels uninspired >_<

maybe it's jealousy from datisi pocketing me :>

and idk, sometimes im uninspired. i do think hut is likely scum and it is the sort of thing that d1 id usually look at and go "nah this is lhf its too easy it can't be right" but like... my read rate d1 is p awful and i always overthink my way out of finding scum

sometimes the scummy people are just scum

and if you want something more inspired, i still can't really shake the idea of datisi and hut being scum together

[fireisredsir]

like this feels more like a gotcha trial balloon than like an actual townie thought about "oooh i got him now"

hut's not trying to push mala, he's just saying she's lurking too and she lurks as town, which are two separate thoughts.

one thought is , "hey mala is also not posting what about her!" and the other thought is "mala lurked in the town game I shared with her"

The first thought is about excusing his own behavior and the second thought is eagerness to share the one piece of meta that he did have which isn't very useful to him as scum if mala is town and he is scum and mala is a leading wagon for lurking if anything it redirects attention to him.

If anything this thought imo makes even less sense for scum!hutmeil to share.

idk, i just don't agree here

if they're scum and mala is town then yes i think it was a bad idea for them to share that they had that piece of meta info

but like, scum make mistakes, thats how they get caught. i don't think it's at all unbelievable that they would make that kind of mistake

and to me the lack of consistent town mindset overrules the "it would be dumb for scum to do this" here

[fireisredsir]

and if you want something more inspired, i still can't really shake the idea of datisi and hut being scum together

if scumtisi were here, he'd be insulted.

what would he have done differently?

[fireisredsir]

and if you want something more inspired, i still can't really shake the idea of datisi and hut being scum together

if scumtisi were here, he'd be insulted.

what would he have done differently?

you read the champs game, no? i know how to bus. or at least i know what not to do when bussing. this kinda defense-but-not-really-but-sorta looks awful once hut flips red. especially since i was the one to pressure him at first then back off.

like, the only way scumtisi does something like this is if i'm in a game with people who are huge fans of my meta and are gonna use it as a "no way it does that around a buddy", which like

i don't think a playerlist such as that exists, and i definitely don't think that's what you had in mind

uh, yes i did, and that's kinda exactly my point

in there you had some early engagement with wiz, he flopped and drew a lot of attention, you voted elsewhere. you then spend most of your scumhunting time engaging with relm while keeping wiz in your scumreads but not actively pressuring him (and telling him in scumchat that things would blow over and people would find something new and shiny to focus on). you then moved onto joe and pushed there for a while. once suspicion on wiz reached kind of a critical mass with guillo being 100% convinced they were scum, you went back to wiz, voted, and then truly started the bus and went deep in casing him, around post 650 in that game

i don't think you would play things exactly the same way, but i don't think "uh i know how to bus" is valid here when, if we are tracking the same pattern of how the gamestate has progressed, we aren't yet to the point where you did a full turn onto your partner and started pushing there. and you did spend a lot of time keeping him in your top scumreads while mostly pressuring elsewhere which would be what you're doing here

also you absolutely would do things intentionally that you think people will later look back on and decide wouldn't make sense for you to do as scum. isn't that like one of your favorite things to do

wasn't that why you were waffling around about the irrel vs mena 1v1 in coalition before bloodhail came in and messed things up

[fireisredsir]

it did look like a fun party!!

[fireisredsir]

deciding to townread a partner based on literally nothing, AFTER being one of the first people to start pushing him and getting attention on him is like, an argument that i can't really bet on anyone here thinking up and convincing themselves of it

townread? what

last i heard they were still like one of your top scumreads just not as much as mala

[fireisredsir]

hmmm

okay

[fireisredsir]

it is also p clearly something ive been thinking about and lightly commenting on for a while, i just didn't really care to get into it bc either

1) im wrong and it doesn't matter or
2) im right and datisi is good enough at arguing that it doesn't go anywhere

i do think his 1208 either misses or intentionally dodges the point completely, but i also think that the other point, about how he probably wouldn't be quite so obvious with his weird soft defense while still scunreading thing that he's doing, is fair and probably true. so, eh, idk, not really interested in pushing it further rn

[fireisredsir]

atp I'm confused why fire has spent so much time talking to Datisi and so little time on sorting the person he's actually voting.

like um what even is the point of this conversation about whether Datisi busses Hutmeil or defends Hutmeil when you don't even know what Hutmeil's alignment is?

idk maybe it's not very relevant to anyone else and preflips bad etc but it's the thing in the game that ive seen that is most interesting to me so far so i might as well talk about it

also i think the way datisi argues back regardless of hut's alignment is relevant to datisi's alignment and maybe that will eventually help me or other people sort him

what do you think i should be doing to sort hut? like im mostly waiting to see if they produce unique content unprompted so i can see if it looks genuine or not and they still haven't really done that

[fireisredsir]

a lot of my other reads are also kinda feeling colored by the conditional of what hut is

like penguin i would probably find scummy here, but if hut is scum then maybe not?

[fireisredsir]

also i think the way datisi argues back regardless of hut's alignment is relevant to datisi's alignment and maybe that will eventually help me or other people sort him

really? what makes you think this?

i kinda feel like you have slightly different styles of arguing back on pushes on you as town vs as scum when you think the reasons are fine vs as scum when you think the reasons are bad

idk if i can tell you what exactly those differences are without going back and rereading some stuff but i feel like they at least could be there based on what ive seen

[fireisredsir]

I guess it's weird that for a 50 page game I feel like not much has actually happen'd :>

i generally feel this way and also feel like most people are kinda null cause most people haven't really done anything so idk why people seem to be expecting me specifically to have spicier takes or whatever

[fireisredsir]

in your next post, if you're not voting for one of penguinpower/hutmeil, give some reasoning on who you'd prefer to vote for between the two of them, and why. if you don't wanna vote either, explain why and offer alternatives. if you *are* voting for one of them, say how good you feel about the vote and what you think about the competition.

i like those wagons. i think its a p reasonable bet that one of them is scum. prob not both but i could see it being either one. my choice would be hut so far but penguin is also a good choice

[fireisredsir]

i think thats a p reasonable take for you to have

it isn't something that i feel very satisfied with but i also think that nobody has really done enough for there to be a scumread that i would feel satisfied in

ig i could try rereading things but idk i feel like im more likely to overthink my way in a bad direction

[fireisredsir]

i like those wagons. i think its a p reasonable bet that one of them is scum. prob not both but i could see it being either one. my choice would be hut so far but penguin is also a good choice

I also kind of think this is a weird take for someone who's voting with penguin to kill hut

i think i already said that the only thing really holding me back from finding penguin scummy is that he's voting hut and i also think hut is likely scum

but like

i could just be wrong so i don't mind it being the counterwagon at all

[fireisredsir]

well, only sometimes!

[fireisredsir]

looking at the plist i think my only really strong townread is vulture/std

i sort of like georgebailey's entrance but thats like just pure vibes. in terms of towniness per post he's pretty up there

im less sure on andante being town than i was before but still probably leaning that way? idk we'll see

[fireisredsir]

SS also vaguely towny bc of a couple posts that just feel like going out of his way to put himself out there more than id maybe expect him to do as scum? 918 and 944 especially just seem kinda sticking-neck-out posts

[fireisredsir]

hut, gamma, penguin, implosion has a scum or two in it imo

[fireisredsir]

That is to say, what do you feel like is the common thread between those players?

there isn't really a common thread i just don't really think at this time that the rest of the pl has 2+ scum in it, and it could be only 1

it's not exactly a super well-thought out thought its just what i was feelin

i do feel like there is some sort of thread between hut and penguin and penguin and implosion but im not really sure what the thread means if anything

[fireisredsir]

im less sure on andante being town than i was before but still probably leaning that way? idk we'll see

So I do some actual game related/towny stuff. and I lose the TR you had on me... cause you TR'd the non game related stuff??
What kind of logic is this?

no? i TRd you for your game-related content early on, and then now im less sure on that

[fireisredsir]

i sort of like georgebailey's entrance but thats like just pure vibes. in terms of towniness per post he's pretty up there

Explain this

i liked what he said about hut and i liked the vibes of his mostly unreadable meme posting. ive never played with him so idk really what to expect but he feels like he's having fun and my gut says thats towny for him based on close to zero meta

[fireisredsir]

looking at the plist i think my only really strong townread is vulture/std

how is this std different than coalition std

its v different, he feels excited to be posting and is moving things forward and doing things unprompted and trying to solve. i also had a townread on vulture already

[fireisredsir]

I’d probably vote fire right now, saying I started towny but became nontowny?? I RECENTLY POSTED A READS LIST WITH SOLID READS… how is that becoming non towny??? half my initial posts were just meh…

your readslist was towny. it's more that once i wasn't seeing it happen live and went back and looked at your earlier content in your iso i didn't find it as towny as i did originally

[fireisredsir]

hutmeil I feel like is at least trying to solve and play, people calling him a hypocrite might be missing some nuance

who called them a hypocrite and what posts would you say are hut trying to solve?

[fireisredsir]

(2) all he said he was less sure of a townread of you, how the fuck does that equate to "fire said andante is scum"?

im less sure on andante being town than i was before but still probably leaning that way? idk we'll see

Well lets see... if you DON'T tr someone, you think they're scum for 1 reason or another, that's just a fact. so once I started doing actual town things, he became unsure of me?

if you read the post you quoted you would see that it literally says im still townleaning you

nowhere did i say I scumread you or even that i have you null

i just re-evaluated and decided that my previous reasons to townread weren't as strong as i thought at first

[fireisredsir]

im looking at past games for this now, cause i could be wrong, but i can't remember town andante ever saying that her posts are less than towny or even really being aware that they could be read as scummy

it seems like usually she always thinks everyone should be townreading her but here she's made a couple comments otherwise

[fireisredsir]

Subject: Newbie 2087 | Celebrating Betty White | End!

I just finished reading that VOTE: Ahri

yeah no. "I do want to hear more from Andante" Obviously I fully intend to be more active and do me, I told yall I wouldn't be around. I am so sorry I didn't stop at gas stations, get on my phone, and talk here durring my trip. I've given plenty, like, looking at my ISO, I genuinely SR it, and I feel like anyone calling me town is maf that knows too much, cause there's not a towny part to that... this Ahri post feels like maf being very cautious with words

ok nvm she was town here

[fireisredsir]

hutmeil I feel like is at least trying to solve and play, people calling him a hypocrite might be missing some nuance

who called them a hypocrite and what posts would you say are hut trying to solve?

also gamma answer pls, especially the second part

[fireisredsir]

it was a follow up to my 1337. i thought it could be an AI thing for you to comment on thinking your own posts aren't all towny, bc i didn't remember you ever doing that or having that mindset as town. i found an example where you did do it as town, so that means it prob isn't AI

[fireisredsir]

ari is there more to your gamma townread than what you said in 727?

[fireisredsir]

do you not see I mentioned wagon comp? The VC helped me see it was basically all TRs of mine on penguin

what's your read on ari and STD?

[fireisredsir]

do you not see I mentioned wagon comp? The VC helped me see it was basically all TRs of mine on penguin

what's your read on ari and STD?

both town

ok so why would you move from me to penguin when both are at 3 votes and you say you aren't convinced that penguin flips scum? saying the penguin wagon comp looks good doesn't make sense as a reason to switch if you also townread the entire wagon on me

[fireisredsir]

Now that we know fire can play scum well, I should probably give him another fair look.

now that invictus is over i can finally relax... this is my game to just chill in tbh

i was so deep in the scum mindset in that game that i literally forgot how to play town when i rolled it in this one which is part of why i started slow

ik that sounds dumb lmao but ill try to reset my brain and play better here now

[fireisredsir]

I for one am glad VP Baltar is here to warn us about the dangers of Fire!scum and the PT of Doom.

tbh that PT was FUN!! I loved it so much!! sounds like fire hated it :/ but I had fun!!!

no i loved it!! it was so much fun. i just felt bad about being evil scum sometimes!!

[fireisredsir]

im also very ok with switching from hut to penguin but i think we have enough votes anyway

[fireisredsir]

i still think gamma switching from me to penguin makes zero sense from a town mindset which is making me hesitate a little but eh

[fireisredsir]

oh mods of the discord server is over now, i did see penguin town there kinda just not really care at all about people finding him as town when it was a very immediately pressing concern.

could just be a personality thing, ig? but it seemed like there at least he was still trying to solve despite that

[fireisredsir]

im not super opposed to a mala wagon, i kinda lean town but it's a weak feeling so meh whatever

i do think that the

- this person is scummy
- let's wagon them for pressure to see if they do anything towny
- they don't do anything towny
- well maybe they're not scum let's wagon somewhere else

pipeline is wild tho, like what's the point

[fireisredsir]

Im taking note of the current 3 votes as of this writing on Mala though. Is that maf trying to save their mafmate in Peng? Maybe.

ok nice, there's an original unprompted thought

do you have any thoughts on who that could be, if that were the case?

[fireisredsir]

ok, I ISO'd fire. What i find concerning is that he is among the first people to point out Penguin acting awkwardly, but then never votes there. Like, he does everything in his power to vote elsewhere, especially saying hutmeil is scummy and therefore needs to be voted instead of penguin.

saying i did "everything in my power to vote elsewhere" is a weird way of framing that lol

altho tbh you're right i think i prob do look kinda bad if pengu flips scum here, remembering how i criticized gamma's unsupported swap onto there, but thats ok, i still hope he does

i can do a readlist if you really want but zzzz

[fireisredsir]

i can do a readlist if you really want but zzzz

I do want. It doesn't need to be a huge lift. You can just open a new post and tell me what you FEEL

it's gonna be a lot of varying flavors of "meh i don't really know" for most of the slots but ok

[fireisredsir]

would love to hear from mala

would love to see fire's readslist, their reluctance makes me think they could be scum tbh

i am always reluctant to make readlists bc i don't usually really view the game in that format, there's lots of conditionals and associations and stuff and those aren't easily represented in a list

probably moreso as town bc then i actually have to be honest and figure out what i think. they let you get away with anything when you're scum you can just make shit up

[fireisredsir]

not really, and if i was i wouldn't say so

like im currently writing it im just being whiny

[fireisredsir]

this is kinda sorta in order but not entirely idk


std - towny town town. has good energy. isn't background character-ing at all. cares about advancing the game when he's here. vulture was also town. town!

s_s - towny imo? still think he's putting himself out there more than i would expect from scum.

andante - still townleaning. i think the reasons that i have some pause on her are reasons that ive wrongly scumread her for in the past. i don't really know what she's like as scum but i don't really think this is it

datisi - probably just town tbh. i don't think my reasons for being paranoid here are actually very good. happy to trust for now and revisit later with a sentiment analyzer

mala - mildly townleaning on gut feel from her posts but also wouldn't really mind her flipping just bc the content level is p low and so it's hard to have a confident read. if she doesn't come back towning it up d2 then that could be a bad sign

vp - seems fine to me. not like actively towny but not really actively scummy either. which maybe is more of a scum sign for him, dunno. think he can live for now

georgebailey - still townread the content he does have but i was hoping that once he showed up the presence would continue. it has not and that is mildly concerning

ari - i would like to trust ari but im not really confident that i do. if she's scum i doubt the team is really under much pressure bc she seems to be content mostly sitting back and taking relatively easy positions. in that case i have no idea who the team would be. so maybe she's just town? this is some top tier logic

implosion - hmmm. this one im not really sure how to put into words but something about his position in the game feels off. will prob look into this tomorrow more after flips to see what is bothering me

gamma - still think he's scummy but i think i might be inclined to scunread just based on tone and playstyle, so idk. if penguin is scum then i don't really think the vote switch there makes sense. maybe?

hut - has spent most of the game not really posting any unique thoughts and imo has looked like new/rusty scum who doesn't really know how to get involved in the game and post game-advancing content. BUT his latest posting at least was decent enough, so eh idk. would like to see more.

penguin - hasn't done anything towny. felt awkward early. seems to have just given up atp as either alignment? i think the point about him not really having any emotion towards the wagon on him is good. happy flipping here today

[fireisredsir]

idc, either way

[fireisredsir]

hi

the remaining scumteam is implosion+georgebailey

no i will not be elaborating at this time

thanks, have a nice day

VOTE: implosion

[fireisredsir]

ok a few actual thoughts

1) penguin went down easy and didn't really fight back at all. this kinda makes me think that scum were ok with him going down there. which kinda makes me think at least 1 scum was on him. not guaranteed cause maybe he did just give up, but thats my leaning. i don't want to hunt exclusively on the wagon but the names off it don't look super appealing to me rn anyway besides maybe mala (and maybe georgebailey but we'll think about that later)

2) i think penguin's responses surrounding implosion were p awk when i questioned him on it early. never really talking directly to implosion but talking about him in a weird mostly-joking-but-not-really way

3) third point was mostly about vp, which no longer matters (rip :<), but still relevant is implo's response to vp in 539, which i could see coming from scum. same goes for 584, which is a sorta strange criticism of andante for criticizing vp questioning implo's read on penguin. something about it just sorta feels informed to me

4) agree with datisi there is very low chance ss tried to start a mala counterwagon unless he's going for the risky 200iq play of "I would never do this as scum" which just really doesn't seem like his style

5) while rereading i did find 932 again which reminded me that i think that is a decent reason to give townpoints to implosion. so, hmm. may have to go read an implosion scum game to see what that feels like

6) 1246 and 1248 prob just mean it's datisi town. if he wanted to defend penguin, he could go with the "we don't get much info from this" route and just hard case somewhere else (like me!). if he wanted penguin to die, he could just push there. i think bringing up that we don't get much info (which in isolation feels kinda like a soft defense that people might scumread after a flip) but then pairing that with "so let's make sure we get more info" is PROBABLY just a towny approach to the situation. it does mean he could if scum prod for associations preflip to set some townies up to get pushed later. so there is some scum benefit. but i think it's less likely

[fireisredsir]

I'm planning to just sheep Datisi and get princess carried this game

this sounds nice

[fireisredsir]

I think the last 2 scum are just Fire + Mala but I didn't actually think very hard I just drew a line in Dat's read triangle.

[fireisredsir]

i do agree with the mala point tho

[fireisredsir]

Nation wide internet outage today.

Sorry but I'll be back when that's fixed. Thank god for Tim Hortons wifi.

classic roger

[fireisredsir]

ive reread some things again and i changed my mind, i don't think i want to hunt on wagon anymore rn

im cool with looking mostly in [george, mala] for now

UNVOTE:

[fireisredsir]

i think std's progression makes sense bc the reasons for the read are different, and it makes sense that they would have different levels of uhh, what's the term, inertia? resistance to change? ill call it stickiness

hut was a townread for doing some stuff. penguin was a townread for early vibes. "doing some stuff" is a stickier reason than "early vibes", so when (between 1254 and 1521) hut didn't do that much it didn't really take away from the stuff he had done earlier, but when penguin didn't do that much it made the vibes worse and so that read went down

[fireisredsir]

also good news everyone, after much searching i found a georgebailey scum game where he didn't get yeeted d1. so he's no longer locktown for surviving to d2

ik you all were worried about that

[fireisredsir]

your townread of gamma is good because it's based on her saying eclipse

[fireisredsir]

whatever, let me know when people want to take this seriously.

im slightly leaning hut town just bc i think scum were trying to push them as a counter to penguin, and hut voting scum partner penguin when they did doesn't really fit with the model i had in my head of how they would be playing this game if they were scum here bc it's a kind of planning-way-ahead sort of thing. i would expect them to be more likely to, if taking any action, take action of preservation rather than bussing, and if stuck in a place where the only real option is bussing id kinda expect them to do nothing

idk really how they'd play as scum so thats not super strong, but i do feel like it's more likely that scum (penguin, and probably george) wanted them dead

[fireisredsir]

i also think ari's wagon analysis is good and probably correct and she just came to the slightly wrong conclusion with it but if im right on the state of things then we probably just win anyway even if i have to die, so that's cool

[fireisredsir]

whatever, let me know when people want to take this seriously.

im slightly leaning hut town just bc i think scum were trying to push them as a counter to penguin, and hut voting scum partner penguin when they did doesn't really fit with the model i had in my head of how they would be playing this game if they were scum here bc it's a kind of planning-way-ahead sort of thing. i would expect them to be more likely to, if taking any action, take action of preservation rather than bussing, and if stuck in a place where the only real option is bussing id kinda expect them to do nothing

idk really how they'd play as scum so thats not super strong, but i do feel like it's more likely that scum (penguin, and probably george) wanted them dead

give me names of people trying to push hut over penguin

george v much did

mala didn't really take a stance but def had more posts critical of hut than she did of penguin (1149). i think scum would probably be avoiding having all 3 on the same wagon anyway tho

[fireisredsir]

george didn't do anything all game, and mala was VERY absent at that eod.... you're trying to tell me, scum!george and scum!mala were trying to wagon hut to save penguin??? WHAT KIND OF LOGIC IS THIS???

what

my point is scum wanted hut dead. they were pushing hut earlier in the day. yes those two were absent at eod but idk how that's relevant to penguin and george wanting hut dead earlier. if the shift from me to penguin came mostly from town then there's not much scum could have really done at eod to save him

[fireisredsir]

yea ok hut can be town

this game is easy let's gooooo

VOTE: georgebailey

[fireisredsir]

im also good with mala

im trying not to get too confbiased here but everything i see continues to fit with how i currently view the gamestate

and that gamestate includes the scumteam being exactly mala+george

[fireisredsir]

datisi can we do off-wagon today pls

i think ari's vca is good

[fireisredsir]

Vote Count 1.06

Malakittens (4):

Aristeia, Datisi, implosion, Andante

Vulture (2):

PenguinPower, hutmeil

Gamma Emerald (2):

fireisredsir, Malakittens

Andante (2):

Gamma Emerald, VP Baltar

Datisi (1):

GeorgeBailey

Not Voting (2):

Something_Smart, Vulture

With 13 alive, it's 7 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is July 8 at 5:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-07-08 17:00:00)

Notes:

PenguinPower is V/LA on weekends.

vc is here

vp switches to ari in 1038

gamma switches to me in 1040

that puts it at 4 on mala, 2 on vulture, 2 on gamma, and 1 each on datisi, ari, and me. there's a lot of lingering suspicion on hut around but no active wagon. gamma and vulture don't really have widespread support

georgebailey shows up and votes hut in 1067. i join the new hut wagon partly cause im starting to doubt my gamma read. ari votes me in 1077

penguin votes hut in 1079. penguin is under no real pressure atp, but if mala is scum then he would want to try to push an alternate wagon. i think he did make a mistake here, and may have lived if he voted me (he had the trajectory for it too, he was voting me earlier). but probably he judged that the hut wagon was more likely to go far since a few people had suspicion there that they hadnt acted on and im more talkative generally and might be hard to push.

i think these two votes were intended to try to push the hut wagon not above penguin, but above mala, because again, there was no penguin wagon yet. the penguin wagon came in response

there's also a good case in here for me+mala+peng which would be why he voted me instead of hut, which, okay whatever, ik that's wrong but i don't blame ari for seeing it. i think that george just kinda looked for a direction to go for a counter, found one, and then penguin hopped on as well after i did

a lot of the suspicion on penguin is now because he voted hut over me. switching to me suddenly will now draw a ton of scrutiny. so by the time it hits 1407 it's just too late, i think that's part of why scum didn't try to shift over to me

[fireisredsir]

I feel that the VPB shot points to scum believing that the wagon was mason-driven because scum have to shoot masons to win this game, there is no other way they can really win if they do not shoot the masons. it also implies imo that scum will continue to shoot on the wagon to hunt where they believe the masons are - which means they will be narrowing things down for us in the future. If we wagon people on the wagon, we're kind of doing their work for them ~whereas if we hunt off wagon, we can let scum do our work for us and shoot people on the wagon.

from a scum POV a wagon of 7 that is heavily mason could have [2-3 masons] on it which leaves a leftover POE of [4-5 unknowns] whenever they miss a shot in the POE they are making the leftover POE on wagon smaller - [4-5] -> [3-4] which is not good for them if they are bussing or heavily bussing - typically I don't think scum teams are comfortable squeezing their own POE like that - it feels somewhat uncomfortable.

this was also more or less the realization i had and my thought process for why i wanted to hunt off wagon, which i didn't really want to get into the discussion of too heavily, but since it's been said now, yea i agree with this

[fireisredsir]

I mean I don't see why the scum team wouldn't think this so I think it's fine to say out loud.

yes that's fair, i tend to be overly cautious about such things but i think this is just a win anyway tbh

unless i have things completely upside down

which has been known to happen in the past

[fireisredsir]

ari have you considered the idea that if im scum with mala then your 1118 doesn't apply and therefore im not scum :>

[fireisredsir]

Malakittens (4): Aristeia, Datisi, implosion, Andante

Penguins vote on hutmeil was the third. This was the leading wagon.

When asked for his reasoning why he voted hutmeil, he said he had none and that he just liked wagons.

Well, let me say this in simple terms: That makes no sense when there was a larger wagon available.

Its a made up reason. If penguin wants to come admit that, I'll take the honesty under consideration.

Mala was at 3 when I voted hut. Ari had voted fire. I went from a 2 vote to create an equal counter wagon.

Anyway - I’ll be back in the morning to catch up on what I’ve missed.

Coming back to this with what I wanted to say since you didn't actually follow up: Why did you want to create an equal counter wagon instead of making a wagon on Mala (who you now think is scum I guess???) the lead wagon?

i like competing wagons for looking back on after a flip. seeing how they rise/fall, which one takes off, and how hard it is to get momentum on is good info.

So wouldn't it make sense for you to be voting hut here?

I know you say you don't have strong reads, but you were decidedly leaning scum on that slot before you switched to mala...

i think that this set of posts may have also contributed to vp dying. he saw the inconsistency with penguin not voting mala earlier when it was a lead wagon, and then voting mala when he was going to die, but hadn't quite publicly made the connection that penguin scum implies mala scum. but i think he probably would have gotten there if he had lived to morning

[fireisredsir]

i think as scum of the set of [scumreads on town, townreads on scum, scumreads on scum, townreads on scum] im by far the worst at making townreads on scum, and that was prob my weakest link during invictus

[fireisredsir]

Again if I had a choice between Andante Gamma i'd yeet gamma b/c i think andante is town so

what if nobody is actually offering that choice and there isn't really any reason to be choosing between those two names

[fireisredsir]

i still think his entrance was really towny. he felt excited to be posting and solving things and sorting people. and even when he was making Good Posts as scum they were mostly reactive, here he's being more proactive

and also vulture was town

you seem to mostly have issue with him relying mostly on gut reads but thats just kinda how he likes to play

he's also locktown for 1700 cause it was hilarious but i didn't want to say so at the time bc andante seemed annoyed

[fireisredsir]

imo i had the right idea with this post: viewtopic.php?p=13366432#p13366432

and i think his play in that game up to that point looks v different from here. this has the town energy that was lacking there. maybe he's just putting major effort into faking it but i don't really believe that

[fireisredsir]

idk i just went back and reread and i don't think the progression is similar at all

there he was almost entirely focused on his mena tunnel, only ever really pushed back on you a tiny bit for your mena towncase, and then went "I dunno I dunno I dunno" and voted you. there wasn't ever really much of any talking about how you could be scum before that.

here he gave actual reasons for penguin being scum and helped push momentum in that direction using his words and not just his vote. and his vote in [post[1492[/post[ was a direct response to penguin acting scummy af right before that, and not a response to other people trying to convince him to vote there

[fireisredsir]

is this really happening

calling out the mala counterwagon

penguin is doing nothing just shitposting. i thought his entrance was townie just on vibes but after seeing nothing happening with the slot i'm slowly getting more and more convinced it's just a scum slot doing nothing and lurking.

mala's attempts at catching up have seemed town, they remind me of the coalition game

saying "no, we should stay on penguin, and here's why"

actually pengu is probably just scum here for describing his town meta honestly but not doing it

after a few posts of considering mala, and even saying maybe andante is just right in 1532, comes back and is like "nah nvm heres another reason why penguin is scum"

pengu also was like "i don't care if you tr me" in the guardians of the fortress game i just helped to bungle but he's got none of that energy here

and then another reason that nobody else has mentioned yet (i talked about it, but with a different interpretation)



it just feels like he's sorting penguin live and you can see it happening, and he's openly sharing these thoughts and moving the conversation forward. there was none of that during that eod in coalition. like yea this is all after penguin is at e-1 and is likely the flip, but he just seems really comfortable to be here having this conversation about whether we should flip someone who would be his partner if he's scum, and giving actual good reasons for why, and i think its more likely that he's just town

[fireisredsir]

Again if I had a choice between Andante Gamma i'd yeet gamma b/c i think andante is town so

what if nobody is actually offering that choice and there isn't really any reason to be choosing between those two names

I wanna ask, what made you decide to hunt outside your initial scum pool from yesterday?

my opinions on who is scum changed due to the flips and some rereading and some things that people said early today

[fireisredsir]

as someone who thought gamma was scum yesterday, we can revisit that maybe if we haven't won by yeeting george+mala. not really interested in going there today

[fireisredsir]

yall are refusing to lim mala

i think the only person who has expressed not being interested in limming mala is std. me and implo voting george both want mala dead as well, p sure ari wants mala, dunno what hut and s_s want

[fireisredsir]

like if Andante/George are both town and both defending penguin for p bad reasons, I don't see why scum would decide oh I'm going to bus rather than help swing the wagon towards someone else and maybe get a misyeet off?

scum need misyeets to win and the best way to get misyeets is to deny information to the town by running up people who are not scum.

Datisi, how is this NOT implying Ari wants me and George dead? "If X and Y are town, this doesn't make sense" literally sounds like Ari plans on flipping us both before looking for maf elsewhere

the post wasn't about you at all it was her reasoning about why scum aren't likely to bus

nothing about it was suggesting to lim you

[fireisredsir]

sigh

[fireisredsir]

i mean mala showed up, didn't comment on anything very relevant, got asked a couple questions, responded with "meow", and then left again

idk what we're really waiting for atp

VOTE: mala

[fireisredsir]

e-2

[fireisredsir]

Excuse me.

I’m not dying today or any day.

I’m going to reread the thread now with a scum penguin in mind tho.

this post is also just 100% a scum post

kinda softing mason, and now objectively she can't really be bc too many people want her dead (the only possible mason team would be mala/std/george, but std wants to lim george, so that's not it). she does it strongly enough that it might make some people want to back off but weakly enough that she has plausible deniability to say it wasn't meant as a soft. and it prob was even supposed to draw out reactions

then says that she will reread with the new info in mind (weakly performative), and after that comes back with exactly the same direction she had before on hunting for a scum within gamma/andante, making no comments or insights or any indication of having re-assessed or learned anything from the flips

[fireisredsir]

wrt mala: maybe i'm just pocketed by the tr. i mean i like posts like 1783 i think they're solvy but i also agree(?) malakittens had the fiyar in the coalition game that doesn't appear here.

the thing with 1783 is that prior to that so far on d2 p much everyone was thinking things through about what the scumflip means, what the vp kill means, where we should look for scum, who is a possible partner, etc.

and it doesn't look like she took any of that into consideration and just keeps going on her "there's 1 scum in gamma/andante" thing.

imo it's not solvy at all bc she isn't taking in new info about the game and using it to inform her decisions, she's just explaining a gamma meta tell

[fireisredsir]

ok well i still think it's prob george/enchant but idk who im wrongly townreading so hmmm

[fireisredsir]

i thought 1892 and 1898 were slightly scummy bc it felt like enchant was going for the sort of instinctive push back on ari and treating her as scum, but then in their later arguments, they were treating ari as town, and it felt like they couldn't quite settle on one consistent mindset to have. interested to see what implosion thinks

in general i am less confident in the slot being scum than i was yesterday bc i was p confident in mala+george, and if mala is town then im wrongly townreading someone, and if im wrongly townreading someone maybe im just wrongly townreading two people

[fireisredsir]

im also not sure if i should be glad that SS is scumreading the person that i think it's most likely that im wrongly townreading, or if i should be concerned bc he is the person that i think it's second most likely that im wrongly townreading, and guiding people towards andante would prob be his plan here if scum

SS why andante?

[fireisredsir]

SS why andante?

Both NK's have pushed her and I do not think scum figured out Gamma was mason

i think thats reasonable, my thought was that if im hunting in [andante, ss, enchant, hut], you were the main one of those who i would guess likely could have figured out gamma was mason, and i was unsure about a andante/enchant team, since i kinda doubted they would have

but i guess that you having a similar pool and a similar thought process except with the additional bit of info as to your own alignment, is probably kinda towny, altho id maybe expect you to be considering me more?

i still think killing gamma without being relatively confident that she was a mason is a weird choice tho? ig if andante really thought that gamma was tunneled on her (she wasn't really anymore, but andante might not realize that)

[fireisredsir]

hi i should say i'm effectively V/LA this week starting a new job and getting married on Saturday

exciting, congrats, v happy for you both :>

[fireisredsir]

i probably should have read an SS scumgame before making assumptions about how he would play as scum and townreading him based on those assumptions

he can be a bit more aggressive than i expected. he is also very aware of his own meta and people's read on his meta and capable of adjusting his play based on that, so the somewhat out-of-character votes in this game on mala in d1 and d2 are i think actually mildly scum-indicative? bc as scum he has incentive to be out-of-character from how people expect him to play scum (they will townread him for breaking his scum-meta, and i think he would be playing around ari's expectations here), but there isn't much reason for him to take that sort of aggressive action as town bc he doesn't really do it as town either

im also still not really clear at all on how he came to the conclusion that scum didn't figure out that gamma was a mason. i think if he's considering me as possible scum then there's no reason for him to come to that conclusion, and instead his suspicion of me should have increased

i assumed that gamma died bc scum thought she was a mason, bc i don't think scum would really be that worried about silencing gamma otherwise. the only exception to that is andante, bc i think andante is unpredictable in what she latches onto in people's perceptions of her, and may have had a distorted view of how strongly gamma scumread her. so, with that assumption, i looked for who i thought may have figured that out, and SS was one possibility of someone who could have. we seem to have a generally similar read on the game, so i would expect his thought process as town on this point to be similar to my own, which is why it doesn't make sense to me that he landed on the conclusion that he did

[fireisredsir]

it is much easier for scum to find masons bc for a vt, weird associatives could either be mason-indicative or scum-indicative. scum can rule one of those out. im not sure i really believe that you think it would be difficult for scum to have figured out gamma was a mason here?

[fireisredsir]

Subject: Open 848: Chromavalon: A Bouquet of Colors [Game Over]

I believed that Noraa is muse and pushes his knowledge, so i tried to pose as Muse as well by hammer.

I didn't really back off, i tried to imitate Muse who trying to hide. I acknowledge that sometimes people troll.

Also no regrets.

this was enchant after quickhammering as scum btw

at first i thought implo would have strong opinions here cause he went after enchant hard for this post but ig he was a muse and knew enchant was scum already lol

the "no regrets" while also justifying it kinda reminded me of it but idk