Open 850: Democrabilities (Postgame)

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: furtiveglance
How about anyone who suggests quickhammering gets quickhammered afterwards?

[Radical Rat]

This is our one and only chance at a no lim. Regular eliminations are mandatory

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: furtiveglance
How about anyone who suggests quickhammering gets quickhammered afterwards?

Also for the record, this was semi-serious.

I don't actually want a quickhammer here, but I thought the irony in suggesting a quickhammer for suggesting a quickhammer would be fun.

I do, however, seriously think that's a bad way to go about the day, and quite possibly a scum motivated suggestion

[Radical Rat]

This is our one and only chance at a no lim. Regular eliminations are mandatory

You're right. So do you think we should no eliminate here so we're not suck on evens?

I think we should use both eliminations. Information from flips is worth it, and the fewer living slots the more likely it is we get something useful out of the future PRs.

[Radical Rat]

This also stops mafia from shooting at the informed player twice later with no consequence.

I don't understand what you mean here. The only situation in which they would shoot the same slot twice is if we used Imprison, and they didn't change their minds on the kill the next night. But I don't see what double eliminating today has to do with that.

[Radical Rat]

With the inform ability, the first vote of the day is what determines who is informed, not a majority. So the mafia could bulletproof one of themselves? (can they) and then vote for themselves as soon as day starts so no one knows the alignment. So if anyone votes quickly or for themselves if we get the inform ability (which I doubt we will anyway) that's very sus.

My understanding is that "First vote of the day" does not mean the first individual vote to be cast, but rather the first voting phase. Like what we're doing right now is the first vote of the day, and then the regular elimination is the second.

[Radical Rat]

This is our one and only chance at a no lim. Regular eliminations are mandatory

You're right. So do you think we should no eliminate here so we're not suck on evens?

I think we should use both eliminations. Information from flips is worth it, and the fewer living slots the more likely it is we get something useful out of the future PRs.

If we double eliminate we will never get to use the good PRs because the game will end night 2 or 3.

Ideally it'll end Day 1. Though I know that's unlikely.

Regardless, ALL of the PRs here are "good" PRs. I have my preferences as to which I would like to see in which order, but I'd like to avoid discussing that too much so scum can't work around it. Point is, every single one of them can provide solid information, especially in a narrower pool of players, and double especially if we hit at least one scum today.

[Radical Rat]

Let me just say, I am very cautious of anyone peddling the holy grail of 'info'. It's become a buzzword that scum (and town for some reason) love to hold up as the key to town winning the game. The fact is, we aren't robots. Town push town, scum push town, town defend town, scum defend town. So the idea of just voting someone at random for 'info' is inherently stupid and pointless. I'm pretty sure that if we end up double eliminating today two townies will die, and people will use the VCA as a tool to further their own scum agenda/town tunneling anyway. A much better idea is to no eliminate first, then agree on one vote.

Are you actually suggesting that there's no difference between town and scum voting behavior?

[Radical Rat]

-Inform, Choose a player alongside this. You can no longer kill the chosen player, ever.

From the sample Role PM. Scum will not be shooting the bulletproof, who is separate from the Informed person, who is separate from the Imprisoned person.

So I still don't really understand what it is you're saying here.

[Radical Rat]

I think we should hold conversation about what scum may or should do with each ability and their relative utility until AFTER the ability shows up. Let scum figure out their own strategies

[Radical Rat]

I think we should hold conversation about what scum may or should do with each ability and their relative utility until AFTER the ability shows up. Let scum figure out their own strategies

Ok, so give me your thoughts behind shooting and no shooting.

Shooting gives us a non-zero chance of hitting scum, whereas not shooting gives us an exactly zero chance of hitting scum. But even on a miss, the flip and wagon behavior will give us something substantial to work with going forward into the proper elimination. Not shooting does not give us that, and we're essentially just having an absurdly long D1 instead. Further, smaller amount of living slots means higher likelihood of a hit for any of our other PRs, even though it puts us in a more precarious position going by the numbers alone.

[Radical Rat]

So currently with the game state I think we should go for a no-elimination,

because it's too risky to hit two townies, which is the most likely outcome.

Just want to point out that there is a 39.5% chance of hitting mafia today if we vote completely randomly with both votes

If we can correctly identify two town players before eliminations then that number jumps up to 48.9%

If you are also a town player and can correctly identify two other town players while removing yourself from the equation, that number jumps up to a 55.5% chance to be pushing one of the mafia today

I haven't double checked the math because I'm lazy, but I think this is actually a really good way to go about this. We can popcorn and nominate two townreads each, and then eliminate from what remains.

[Radical Rat]

Even if people still want to no lim, it generates enough content that I'd feel more comfortable going into Day 1 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Radical Rat]

"It's unlikely to hit Mafia D1, therefore I'm Town" sure is one of the defenses ever

[Radical Rat]

[quote="In post 193The most redundant of your arguments against me seems to imply that I was against using the double elimination just because I was the most popular vote. This is false. I always wanted to No Eliminate first, and stated that at the time.[/quote]

Is that so?

so we get 2 eliminations today. That's interesting. How about anyone who leads on town gets quickhammered afterwards?

[Radical Rat]

Broken quote because phone posting, but you get the idea.

[Radical Rat]

I don't think pushing for a no kill is scummy personally. I don't think scum actually has a strong preference one way or the other, at least not in the abstract sense.

The logic that they chose it and therefore must want it used simply doesn't hold up. If we get Inform tomorrow, would you say that Mafia desperately wants us to inform someone?

[Radical Rat]

What IS scummy is furtive starting out by saying we SHOULD use the double elimination, in a scummy fashion even, then turning around and pushing hard against it as soon as the possibility it might be him getting eliminated appeared.

[Radical Rat]

No, it did not. Your actual RVS vote did read as a joke, but I did believe you were serious there. I said as much earlier and you didn't correct me then, so why now?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: furtiveglance
How about anyone who suggests quickhammering gets quickhammered afterwards?

Also for the record, this was semi-serious.

I don't actually want a quickhammer here, but I thought the irony in suggesting a quickhammer for suggesting a quickhammer would be fun.

I do, however, seriously think that's a bad way to go about the day, and quite possibly a scum motivated suggestion

[quote="In post 193The most redundant of your arguments against me seems to imply that I was against using the double elimination just because I was the most popular vote. This is false. I always wanted to No Eliminate first, and stated that at the time.

Is that so?

so we get 2 eliminations today. That's interesting. How about anyone who leads on town gets quickhammered afterwards?

[/quote]

[Radical Rat]

If it was actually a joke, then I apologize. I sometimes have difficulty discerning jokes from serious statements, as evidenced by well... This.

I do still think your reactions to pressure look very not good, but I will need to re-read and re-evaluate things with that in mind before making proper judgement, and I don't really have the energy for that tonight, so look forward to that tomorrow.


I do still 100% stand by using the elimination being the correct decision though, that's not affected by any of this

[Radical Rat]

We aren't going to get a good wagon in the time we have. I think it's best we just end the phase so we can move on from this argument and discuss reads.

I don't think we will get a turn around and an elimination today, I think its best if someone hammers so we can stop talking about if we should double eliminate or if something was a joke or not and get onto more helpful things.

What makes these discussions not helpful? I think deciding to eliminate is a very important decision, and if someone presents a more compelling reason than simply being afraid of missing, I'd be happy to hammer a no lim. Can't happen if we don't talk about it though.

Likewise, the joke thing was a misconception that informed my scumread, and that's important to clear up, is it not?

[Radical Rat]

... Somehow I thought deadline was longer. Guess the no lim folks win then.

To update, I still feel like furtive is being defensive to a weird degree, especially given the relatively light pressure he's been under, and pretty much all of their actual arguments look rather disingenuous.

Beyond that, probably either Cat or Goldfish, but I'm] not sure which.

Fairly confident in saying there's at least one scum in that group, even if furtive does flip green.

[Radical Rat]

Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"

For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.

My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.

Oh no, that wasn't a full readslist or anything, just my current scumpool.

Actual readslist would look something like this:

Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

[Radical Rat]

Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"

For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.

My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.

Oh no, that wasn't a full readslist or anything, just my current scumpool.

Actual readslist would look something like this:

Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

I don't like this readslist. It looks calculated, and not in a good way. It actually looks like an exercise I'd do if I was scum - rank players from hardest to easiest to mislim.

You think maybe that might be because scum finds it easiest to mislim players who look scummy?

[Radical Rat]

You could have made this list pre-game, looking at past games.

That is way more effort than I'd be willing to put in here, and even if I did have that kind of time and energy, it probably wouldn't be worth it.

[Radical Rat]

I would speculate that both her partner and the N1 target were voting to no-lim.

Why does Titus's alignment affect what the N1 target might do? I get that her and a partner may want to split their opinion so as not to seem aligned, but the N1 target wouldn't be privy to that at all.

[Radical Rat]

@furtive
I'm going to have to ask that you just take me at my word as far as misunderstanding your joke. I'm autistic and sometimes I misinterpret jokes that seem obvious to others, especially through text where I can't listen for inflections. If you think I'm scummy for not backing down after catching that, that's fine, but I'd appreciate you not accusing me of faking simple misinterpretations like that.

[Radical Rat]

they voted me based on their own mistake which they admitted, but then are clinging to scumreading me because my reaction was apparently 'weird'. great.

To address this point, and also Flea's request for more than "too defensive,"

It's just the defensiveness alone, it's the nature of the defense. Like, you start out with just blatant OMGUS, and only very recently started to branch out from that. It felt like you were more concerned with getting people off of you than onto scum, and that's a strange attitude for Town to have so early on with only a couple votes actually on you.

That, and the way you approached the no lim, framing analysis of a potential elimination as useless because both alignments vote both ways sometimes. Which is true, but if that really made analysis useless Mafia as a game wouldn't really work. Everyone else seemed to agree that it would be useful, just not worth the numbers disadvantage, which I think is

wrong,

but makes sense. Saying nothing matters and there's no useable information to be gleaned feels like an attempt to stoke apathy and discourage pressure and scumhunting.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: furtiveglance

[Radical Rat]

I should be voting furtive.

[Radical Rat]

Though I think both Titus and furtive are sus, I think it’s unlikely they’re the team.

Right. A is keeping their options open.

But you originally called them scum because they had you both as scum together. But they don't, and now you're saying they're keeping their options open instead.

How are their reads different from town who is giving a reads list?

No town would have their position. SR on me sure. SR on furtiveglance ok. There's no way anyone believes SS so a defense turns into not a team but individual, which is an excuse to try and keep the game static.

I don't agree with this conclusion. Frankly, I agree with Alianna that one of you is probably scum, but not both. I'm just confident enough on furtive that it allows me to townread you by extension, but if she lacks that confidence it makes perfect sense to scumread you both on an individual basis

[Radical Rat]

Sorry, I've had a lot happening past couple days, didn't find the energy to engage here.

At any rate, I have to agree that Titus looks bad here. Alianna push/vote was questionable, but I was willing to take it as just being wrong, moving on to Dunnstral with a similarly bad/reachy push after no one bit on Alianna though... I think that tips the scale a bit too far.

[Radical Rat]

Having said that, why aren't you voting, Dunn? For anyone?

[Radical Rat]

In 281, Radical Rat has me as slightly scummy, but in 397 they're talking about me like I'm conftown. 355 does it too to a lesser extent. Kind of looks TMI.

This is a good catch which needs to be explained by RR.

Consequence of not labelling my tiers. Alianna was dead null, not slightly scummy.

Regardless, I object to the interpretation that thinking a push on you is bad means I think you're conftown.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Titus

I think this needs to happen though. Both the Alianna and Dunnstral pushes were based on things that are just objectively not true, and I'm not buying the "I'm the only competent player in the game" act, despite sharing her frustration with the no lim D1.

[Radical Rat]

Really strange phrasing - 'this needs to happen'. Only vote for people you think are scum.

It needs to happen because I think she's scum, for the reasons stated in that very post.

[Radical Rat]

Dunn might be scum here.

Go on

Scum!Dunn struggles with content and I saw you elsewhere.

If this is what has people concerned about Titus, I'm struggling to fundamentally see a major issue with it at all. Wouldn't mind seeing the read elaborated to gauge whether Titus is still here or if their read has shifted elsewhere at all but it's hardly overly incriminating?

The problem is that Dunnstral in general struggles with content, it's not inherently AI. And Titus knows better than that.

[Radical Rat]

Also you should probably acknowledge question above RR from Alianna/Furtive.

I already did, but if it needs said again, I never said Alianna was scummy, and I also was not treating them as conftown.

[Radical Rat]

Before the day ends, I do want to say that the nightkill is potentially going to be rather informative. It has to be submitted pre-game, which means they couldn't use anything that happened today to decide who to kill. So, either they did it completely randomly... Or they based it on knowledge of other players and deciding who might pose a threat. If they did deliberately choose a nightkill, it would most likely have been someone at least one of the scum was familiar with.... So a nightkill within Flea/Dunn/Titus/Myself could potentially implicate the others. Likewise, a kill on Alianna or Goldfish could implicate the other.

It's hardly damning evidence, but worth keeping in mind in conjunction with everything else.

Another thing would be to look at who was defending the kill target if it's someone who was being pushed today, because scum has a strong incentive to not let the kill target get eliminated. And if BOTH of those happen to apply, on top of generally scummy behavior.... Well, D2 should go a lot smoother then

[Radical Rat]

We should stop and think this through.

As I mentioned just before the end of D1, scum would have Not wanted Titus to be eliminated. While this doesn't 100% clear her wagon, it's probably safe to assume that at least one scum would have been trying to redirect, and Titus's main counter wagon was Alianna, which saw moderate success, albeit not enough. From this, it's a pretty safe bet that Alianna is Town, and since we know she's been a contentious slot, it's more likely that scum have her lined up for elimination than nightkill.

VOTE: Alianna

[Radical Rat]

Sure, that's POSSIBLE, but to what end? Why not just have Flea hammer properly, instead of dancing around?

[Radical Rat]

I really fundamentally don't think we should be giving this power to anyone who's been heavily suspected thus far, just far, far too risky. Need to consider the consequences if scum gets their hands on the inform power. Again I note that the people suggesting alternatives to Goldfish seem to be very much teetering around what they actually think of Goldfish as a player here.

I think Goldfish is a very likely kill target on account of being a consensus townread.

At the present moment, I townread her as well, but it doesn't do any good to inform someone who gets shot.

[Radical Rat]

It does not assume Town!Alianna, it assumes that scum would push a favorable elimination over an unfavorable one, and neither eliminating the nightkill, nor a partner is favorable to scum. Eliminating Town that isn't slated to be the nightkill is favorable, ergo that would be scum's goal.

[Radical Rat]

But yes, you are correct in that it implies at least one scum in you/Malcom.

[Radical Rat]

Sure, that's POSSIBLE, but to what end? Why not just have Flea hammer properly, instead of dancing around?

Because it surely looks worse if two mafia are unapologetically on a bandwagon for town, no? If they were a team the gambit worked for some players like yourself - try to convince everyone Alianna is less scummy by jumping off the wagon for a bit. It's not as if they ever tried to substantively push an alternative afterwards.

Except in this case it looks better to be on the wagon. Titus elimination was detrimental to scum. They COULD have elected to push her through anyway for the towncred of playing anti-scum, but if that were the goal, it makes more sense to commit to the gambit and be unambiguous about it. Especially since Titus pretty much wrote her own scumcase by using provably false meta and AtE shit, it would have been easy to justify as coming from a Town perspective.

[Radical Rat]

In light of Titus getting smoked, I'll add Cat.Jpeg to the townbloc. Their recent posting has been towny. I'm seeing 2 mafia in Alianna/Dunnstral/Radical Rat.

How does the Titus kill suggest Cat is Town?

[Radical Rat]

Slightly related thought, scum could try to get a controversial player informed to sabotage the ability's effectiveness. I like 576 even less now.

I mean, if it really comes down to it, we can just eliminate the informed player after they share the results. I don't anticipate NEEDING to do that, but it would clear up the results easily enough.

[Radical Rat]

I would also note though that my goal is Not to get a controversial player informed, but to make a previously controversial slot not controversial.

[Radical Rat]

Slightly related thought, scum could try to get a controversial player informed to sabotage the ability's effectiveness. I like 576 even less now.

I mean, if it really comes down to it, we can just eliminate the informed player after they share the results. I don't anticipate NEEDING to do that, but it would clear up the results easily enough.

You forget the fact that if we eliminate incorrectly today tommorow will be melo... so we shouldn't do it just to clear the results because if they are town we'll loose.

Not necessarily the case, since there are a couple ways a kill could be avoided, but you're right assuming everything goes through, I hadn't actually checked that and was just looking at it in the abstract.

[Radical Rat]

Cat vote Alianna

[Radical Rat]

Slightly related thought, scum could try to get a controversial player informed to sabotage the ability's effectiveness. I like 576 even less now.

I mean, if it really comes down to it, we can just eliminate the informed player after they share the results. I don't anticipate NEEDING to do that, but it would clear up the results easily enough.

You forget the fact that if we eliminate incorrectly today tommorow will be melo... so we shouldn't do it just to clear the results because if they are town we'll loose.

Yeah this makes no sense from Radical Rat. We inform a townread player, someone we're not going to condemn soon.

Did you miss the part where I said I don't anticipate needing to do that?

[Radical Rat]

Why should we vote for someone who's town with an

eh

chance of dying when we could vote for town who's less likely to die (based off yesterday scum probably would not want to kill me because im not a consensus townread and other more townread people have the same scumreads that i do so it's not like they would target me specifically if I am right, because of this i will probably also not just get a result on myself which would be unfavourable)

This is the last time I will push for this unless people have questions. If not enough people are swayed I will succumb and vote for Goldfish.
VOTE: Cat.Jpeg

Cat, if you're Town, just vote Alianna. All your same logic applies, except that Alianna's less likely to be scum.

[Radical Rat]

Dunnstral, what are your thoughts on informing Alianna?

[Radical Rat]

Or anyone other than yourself even

[Radical Rat]

It's true that if Alianna's scum, Titus is a better elimination for scum. However, scum could have easily moved onto literally anyone else, and they didn't. That tells me they were okay with at least one of the leading wagons, and since Titus was bad for them... Must've been Alianna.

[Radical Rat]

I still think she's a prime target for nightkilling, and we should pick someone who isn't, but assuming she doesn't get killed, I don't actually object to her having the information.

[Radical Rat]

On second thought, the lack of a real counterwagon might suggest that Goldie really is slated to die or that she's the BP.

UNVOTE:

Wrong. The players (apart from you) that I consider most likely to be mafia have objected and voted elsewhere.

And yet Goldfish is the only one that more than a single person can agree on apparently. Hardly suggests that any of the others are coordinated pushes

[Radical Rat]

I actually had it in my head that this was plurality again, whoops.

I agree it's better than nothing, and it's pretty clear now I don't have the votes I need for Alianna, so.

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

If you die I will be very grumpy about it though

[Radical Rat]

@Mod

What would happen if the day ended with zero votes cast?

[Radical Rat]

I think Alianna would be a better elimination than RR of those two. I've not been particularly keen on RR's push for Alianna to be informed but I reckon it'd have been too blatant for a scum partnership to pull off personally. I disagree with RR's read on Alianna but it's probably a genuine, if flawed, one.

I'd also quite happily vote for Dunn, I reckon there's a decent chance we hit scum there.

I agree that I need to throw out Alianna/Radical Rat, after the inform thing.

I think it makes for Alianna/Dunnstral or Dunnstral/Radical Rat, which would put Dunnstral in my focus.

Yeah Alianna/Dunn would strike me as the most likely team right now, albeit with the caveat sometimes hard to be 100% confident with associatives.

Why Alianna/Dunn?

[Radical Rat]

Mostly prodging.

I should share some thoughts, but I'm not certain who to vote for, still weighing options and have mostly just been observing.

Right now I'm fairly confident scum is in furtive/Malcolm/Cat. Definitely at least one in there, possibly two.
IF there was scum hiding on the Titus wagon, it probably was Dunn, but I don't feel strong enough there to say so definitively, beyond that his D2 looks a good deal worse than D1.

Maybe the right thing to do would be to just posthumously sheep Titus, maybe she saw something unique about Dunnstral's inactivity here compared to when he's inactive as Town and just couldn't communicate it properly. But it makes me nervous that the entire rest of my PoE is also pushing Dunn as scum.

So yeah, I don't know where I'm going yet. Ironically I might have actually wanted to no lim here, wait to see what the Inform does, but that's not possible, and probably wouldn't be a good idea anyway.

[Radical Rat]

I also disagree about my defence. It's less 'I wouldn't do that' and more 'No one would do that'.

And yet they do, all the time. In some cases, using this very defense!

VOTE: furtiveglance

I think I'm willing to settle here. Over the past few phases I've said probably as much as I can say here. I was holding off because I know I'm prone to confirmation bias tunneling, but no matter how I try to look at the game right now, it all comes back to furtive. I just cannot imagine a scenario in which this flips Town

[Radical Rat]

I find the notion that scum would willingly give up a nightkill, be that through eliminating their target or targeting the BP, just for the slight advantage putting us on evens gives them to be absolutely absurd.

If it were actually worth doing, N1 no kill would be the meta in every game that allows it.

[Radical Rat]

And the way furtive has just hyperfocused on "Well, eliminating Town, that's scummy" to the exclusion of all other circumstances is just... Bad.

It's exactly why I initially sussed him for saying we should just quickhammer whoever leads a Town wagon. And sure, that was a joke that I'd misinterpreted, and yet here is that same philosophy being pushed seriously.

[Radical Rat]

Explain why I should vote for Radical Rat
Most of your case seems to be that they are paired with me, which I don't agree with

They're scummy in a vacuum.

Peep the readslist in 281.

It's this:
Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

Then, they vote me for a bit - after scumreading me on page 1 for nothing and doubling down afterwards based on my 'reactions', but when it becomes clear the choice is Titus or Alianna they vote Titus saying 'this needs to happen' - 419, whatever that means.

This is despite Titus being higher up than Alianna on their list. It's why I considered Alianna/Radical Rat a likely scumteam (and still think it's possible).

Then voting to inform Alianna in 576 struck me as really strange. No one was ever going to go for Alianna there. It looks to me like Radical Rat knows they've been playing too safe and does something 'wacky' for the sake of it, because it's something scum might not do.

Their poe is apparently now me/Malcolm/Cat, who are three fairly obvious town to me.

Look at how Goldfish was bottom of the list in 281 ^^ and has been forgotten about because I and others are hard townreading them. It stinks of scum not wanting to cause a fuss and amending their reads in this way. They even voted to inform Goldfish in 657. Why would you give an apparent scumread this ability?

All in all Radical Rat's play has not been consistent and looks like lazy scum doing what they can get away with, including jumping on my wagon at the earliest opportunity. Why didn't they start the vote on me? They obviously want to hide in the middle and avoid responsibility if I flip.

This entire post is incredibly misrepresentative.

Yeah, my reads changed after I posted that readslist based on events occurring in the game. I stopped townreading and started scumreading Titus after she made her push on Dunnstral for bad reasons that I believed she should know better on. I made that perfectly clear when it happened, I didn't just suddenly vote her out of nowhere, and I even explained it again for you specifically when you complained about it the first time.

Goldfish too, while I wasn't as explicit about her, I obviously was not scumreading her anymore. I thought her early play was a bit odd, I had her low on the list for that, but as the game's progressed, she looks better. A lot of that comes down to others looking scummier, part of it is because she was early on the Titus wagon which I don't think scum would have done for already stated reasons, but to accuse me of voting to inform a scumread because of an outdated D1 readslist is just nonsensical.


And for everyone else, this kind of thing is exactly what I'm talking about with my scumreading furtive. This isn't just wrong, it's actively malicious.

[Radical Rat]

The most important event is the elimination. Usually town want to vote out mafia and mafia want to vote out town. So yes, the most useful analysis I can give is that the Titus wagon is scummier than non-Titus voters. You're trying to muddy the waters by using the intricacies of this particular setup to make people think we should scumread people who defended town and townread people who voted town, it's in direct contradiction with the law of mafia. You are under arrest.

This setup includes a pre-determined nightkill, scum wouldn't want to eliminate the nightkill because then they only get 1 dead townie vs two. Which means that in this setup it's not as simple as mafia want to vote town, town want to vote mafia, because mafia won't want to vote particular townies.

I don't have understand why you refuse to see this, it's not a minor intricacy of the setup it's actually really a important and totally relevant to our situation on day 1.

And I don't like how you are scumreading RR for arguing this when other players (myself included) have said it before.

Scum wouldn't want to eliminate their nightkill, but if scum (say Alianna) was at risk of elimination then it's possible they could've pivoted to get Titus out at the very least and ensure they remained safe. At the very least it's damage control, and they still manage to ensure one townie is eliminated if nothing else. Flea hammering is why I'd think there's potential for a Alianna/Flea team, for example, albeit my read on that is lessened by my suspicion of Dunn, who I reckon has a strong chance of coming back as scum.

My problem with this scenario is that scum didn't HAVE to pivot onto Titus specifically. They could have picked furtive, or me, or Dunnstral, or any other slot with at least one other person scumreading. And even if they did decide to do Titus for some reason, why would Alianna herself unvote, and risk the plurality shifting?

[Radical Rat]

And the way furtive has just hyperfocused on "Well, eliminating Town, that's scummy" to the exclusion of all other circumstances is just... Bad.

It's exactly why I initially sussed him for saying we should just quickhammer whoever leads a Town wagon.

And sure, that was a joke that I'd misinterpreted, and yet here is that same philosophy being pushed seriously.

Is it really though? Furtive isn't exactly arguing in favour of quickhammering...does your logic here suggest a player cannot push for the elimination of someone who was on the Titus wagon? Clearly there's some misguided town on there but it's pretty conceivable that someone from the mafia might have gone on there, or shown interest in eliminating Titus at some point, no?

I do believe it is possible one scum chose to hide on the Titus wagon. However, my problem is that being on the wagon is not inherently scummy on its own, while furtive has been repeatedly reducing it to that.

Basically, scumreading someone who was on the Titus wagon is fine, but scumreading someone FOR being on the Titus wagon is questionable at best

[Radical Rat]

I'm reiterating explanations that I have already made and you willfully ignored to try to convince people they don't exist

[Radical Rat]

I mean I'd rather not die just yet, I have things to say that must wait until tomorrow.

I feel most confident in furtive here, but if everyone else is so sure he's town, I wouldn't mind looking for the second scum. Trouble is, I'm not anywhere near as certain on anyone else.

So I guess readslist wise, and I'll more clearly label it this time...

Strong Townread:
Alianna, Flea

Light Townread:
Goldfish

Indecisive:
Malcolm, Dunnstral

Light Scumread:
Cat

Strong Scumread:
furtive

[Radical Rat]

I have things to say that must wait until tomorrow.

Will you give us any hints?

Suffice to say, I have opinions about why the Inform was chosen, and who might have been BPed, but I don't want to elaborate any further on that until we actually get the information. Otherwise, in the hypothetical scenario that you turn out to be scum, you could tailor your answers to either match or counter my expectations, and then the analysis wouldn't be useful anymore

[Radical Rat]

Alianna when Radical Rat flips, we will look for their partner. If you don't want to be scumread tomorrow, now is your chance to vote them and put the spotlight on Flea/Dunnstral.

This is a horrible post, flagrantly manipulative, and I cannot comprehend how it actually worked.

[Radical Rat]

If no one changes their mind in the next couple hours though, obviously furtive needs to be prime suspect tomorrow, barring an inno from Goldfish.

[Radical Rat]

This has better flip red. I don’t want to be in MeLo tomorrow.

The good news is it's only a pseudo MeLo, since there is still the chance you hit the NK.

[Radical Rat]

Also not like I can do anything with intent anyway. We're all vanilla, so nothing to claim, and I've said essentially all I can now.

[Radical Rat]

Assuming Radical Rat is mafia, I'd say Alianna is probably clear town from Associatives. I'd clear the entire wagon.

And when I flip Town, who will you look toward if not yourself?

[Radical Rat]

Well, I look forward to seeing how you try to dig yourself out of this hole when I'm gone

[Radical Rat]

And if you're Town, we've probably already lost

[Radical Rat]

Because in the event Goldfish does turn out to be scum, she can change her plans.

All I can do is hope someone else sees the same thing, and scum doesn't.

[Radical Rat]

And yeah, I townread Goldfish right now, so I don't expect it to come up. But it's a contingency that needs accounted for.

[Radical Rat]

I do owe apologies to Titus and Furtive, for my part in eliminating them both.

Honestly, by the end I was coming around to Town!furtive, but well. Damage was already done.

Tunneling is my main weakness as Town, but I haven't been able to break myself of it because like. What if I break the tunnel and they really WERE scum?

[Radical Rat]

@Goldfish

Why DIDN'T you just outright claim a guilty on furtive? Obviously, clearing Malcolm worked out for you, but seems like it probably would have gone faster and easier if you'd done that

[Radical Rat]

Well, you also could have picked anyone else I suppose.

But yeah, if you read in the Dead PT, I didn't anticipate you going for BPing a Townie. Just seemed to give too much Town power if the inform actually went through.

And if I'd lived, I would have been on you about that, despite the initial assumption being flawed