Yeah, I really liked Ydrasse's opening but like... damn. I might need to rethink this one too.In post 2306, Amazonian Legends wrote:No, I don’t want to eliminate you today.In post 2288, Ydrasse wrote:wanna kill me and lose the doctor on fua tonight be my guest ~
But you have the wolfiest pop ins I’ve seen in a long time and I’ve lost patience with your play.
Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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BAHAHAHAHAHAHAIn post 2335, Shirou wrote:yeah, GL is scum
I'm a night 3 cop and I'm leashing my cop on GL
we're no eliminating tomorrow
if I die tonight you eliminate GL or you're game throwing
that's kinda it.
In my opinion we should also stop following this and just eliminate ydrasse but /shrug
If my result on GL is a inno I can self-vote if he wishes me to. I'm pretty sure it's not going to be an inno though.
By the way that's why I was hinting that I "trusted a cop to check on GL". Because duh, I was the cop and I was gonna check him.
I kinda think it's a waste to check him right now tbh though because we could just eliminate him and me check someone else but eh, I don't have enough energy to try to convince people of that.
Also I think redtea is town due to the fact he's pushing it yeah
What in the name of... Shirou, this is a joke right? You just did like 5 different things I find scummy in one post.
No, I am not no-elimming tomorrow, not for that. You do not control my or anyone else's vote, and it's not throwing to go against you. And now that you've found an excuse, you hopped off the redtea wagon immediately and want to quickswitch to Ydrasse (who hasn't even got their replacement yet), after this whole song and dance of "look at me, I'm willing to vote redtea so back off on the associative". And then you threaten to SELF VOTE if it's inno? Why? You are, or at least, were, under basically no risk of an actual wagon forming. Furthermore, self voting is not only damaging to town most of the time barring extraneous circumstances, but it is also from my knowledge not even a real reason to towntell someone. You wanna talk about performative statements, this whole post is blatantly performative.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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fua claimed cop, was protected N1, and doesn't have their results yet.In post 2373, Enchant wrote:Oh ydrasse claimed.
Well fine...
And i need to protect fua because...?
Protects are kinda suck if mafia knows about them.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Shirou has also chosen to not revote.In post 2435, implosion wrote:
shirou was on the wagon until like an hour ago and i've said it's in practice not really a bad elim even if i think it'll flip town?In post 2433, GuiltyLion wrote:it's also become a harder stance by virtue of a bunch of people (Shirou, implo) just insisting on not voting redtea.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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That was directed at the killing morph comment, not the unvote. Unvote was understandable.In post 2510, Amazonian Legends wrote:In post 2508, Tejate Raichu wrote:Man, getting this wagon through has been like pulling teeth.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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From my view, the people I think are scum have been trying to find any reason possible to not be on this wagon. I sort of knee jerked into thinking "we better not be starting a morph wagon right now" because I really do not want to give them another excuse.In post 2517, morph the cat wrote:
I don't understand how this is in reference to the morph comment.In post 2508, Tejate Raichu wrote:Man, getting this wagon through has been like pulling teeth.
Please expound.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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My problem isn't with the speed at which this wagon formed. My problem with the fact that it was an obvious wagon day 1 but got pivoted off of, was barely even talked about early today, and now that we're back here I see a lot of Shirou seemingly trying to pivot away from this while also saying that he's fine with voting it. But then not actually voting it until he realizes that he does not have the same wagon leading power that he did yesterday.In post 2520, Cephrir wrote:is it like pulling teeth though, because this wagon went from 0 to 60 in no time flat.
im not saying thats a problem, wagon speed arguments are trash, but-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Elaborate?In post 2535, Cephrir wrote:if redtea is town, meg/tejate are both scum-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Fair, I suppose. I didn't expect to suddenly get townread by anyone, frankly I'm surprised my wagon fell apart anyways. I understand that if redtea flips town it looks really bad for me, but quite frankly I've been playing out the latter half of this day by forcing myself into the mindset of already being in dead thread, so I'm surprised there was a switch at all.In post 2549, Cephrir wrote:and im already scumreading you/yours is the wagon we derailed to do this.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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That being said, I'm not exactly sure how Meg ties into me being scum. I've actually barely interacted with the slot outside of saying that I didn't find his entry to be that scummy off of meta I've seen in 2085. He replaced into a slot that I was close to straight up just locktowning, but the entry struck me as so scummy that I pushed him to E-1 (or rather fake E-1, not trusting player written VC ever again).-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Hello, back home briefly before going out again so I figured I'd check up on the thread.
Nope, that was me. That pretty much summarizes it.In post 2580, morph the cat wrote:He's not a true newbie. But iirc most of his experience is in discord and f2f games. Might be mixing him up with another player from the 2085 newbie game. I'll check on that when I'm at my laptop tomorrow.
As soon as you asked about our reads on fua I could see the doc claim coming from a mile away. So if nothing else I think that strengthens your claim a bit. If you had done that and hadn't claim I'd be very suspicious of you.In post 2583, Amazonian Legends wrote:@Meg, sure, I can see where our delay might look scummy, but what do we get out of it? In the end there were no doc claims, and frankly anyone who's played with me ever knows that I don't comment on nights that turn out favorably for town without a very, very good reason. I'm not sure I ever have in 50+ games. Commenting was pretty much a blazing signal to morph that we were taking responsibility for the lack of kill in a way that I couldn't have backed out of.
I explicitly said I don't like Shirou's plan of locking no-elim tomorrow and kind of refuse to agree to it. Maybe there is a situation tomorrow where no-elim is good... and maybe it will do nothing but hurt town. I absolutely do not like the idea of deciding that before we can accurately judge what no-elim actually accomplishes tomorrow. The situation I would be most okay with is if redtea flips scum. Then, maybe, I could agree to it.In post 2583, Amazonian Legends wrote:I don't support a no-elim tomorrow without much better arguments for it. As someone (Tejate?) said, town's power is in eliminating, puny docs and cops aside.
GL's posts I really have nothing to comment on because I have already expressed similar thoughts in other posts. I see nothing particularly out of place.
Also, regarding Meg's pet theory: I have thought about this some too, although I think you may be on the wrong track suspecting fua for it unless you believe Amazonian is also scum. Realistically the no NK scenario that makes most sense is Amazonian being scum, not her target. scum!fua and town!Amazonian would require the scum to essentially hope that there is a N1, so if this scenario was correct it actually makes most sense that we have 6 docs and 4 cops, not the other way around. That being said, this is still kind of conspiracy theory territory, no idea if any of this will have any value going forward.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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I townread them! Just pointing out that suspecting fua over possible no NK shenanigans seems like the wrong way to entertain the possibilities of N1. Realistically, there are 4 things that could have happened night one.In post 2600, morph the cat wrote:
I would literally self-vote in xylim under the assumption that Spay gave me a fake town role PM than vote Amazonians at any point in this game levels of they're town.In post 2599, Tejate Raichu wrote:unless you believe Amazonian is also scum
Which is why i'm lock-towning the shit out of Fua too.
1) doc!Amazonian protected cop!fua. Exactly what was stated was what happened. I really see no reason to doubt this at the moment.
2) scum!Amazonian fake protects scum!fua. But why? Neither of them are like, anywhere close to being in the danger zone? Amazonian was fairly TR'd and fua was close to locktown for almost everyone but me. This really makes no sense from a motivation perspective, even as WIFOM this would be baffling?
3) doc!Amazonian protected scum!fua, mafia make no kills this night. As stated, this seems unlikely. It would essentially require mafia to make a lucky guess that A) there was a night 1 doc at all and B) that the n1 doc would protect scum. This makes no sense unless 4 cop 6 doc, again even as WIFOM.
4) scum!Amazonian "protected" cop!fua, mafia make no kills. Of the 3 possibilities besides the obvious, this seems the most likely. Amazonian is in complete control of their own claim, so this wouldn't be relying on luck to pull off in theory. And fua is just an obvious protect. This would also have the benefit of strengthening all TR's on Amazonian, which is something scum may actually consider worth not killing for after pulling off a mis-elim d1.
That being said, while I have thought about this some, I still feel like it makes the most sense that a doc protected a cop.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Ah, real quick something just occurred to me in regards to 2601. Again, this is still wild conspiracy theory stuff so take this with a grain of salt.
5) doc!Amazonian protects cop!fua... but scum didn't night kill anyone. Let's think about option 3 for a second, why does the scum (possibly) attempting such a play have to be fua? I even noted in this possibility that there is no real guarantee of success which made it seem unlikely, but what if it failed? What if the scum tried to draw in the doctor for this play but ended up needlessly confirming fua?
Okay enough of that. By the way, I really like 2604. Overall I've actually liked a number of nQ's posts better than day 1, regardless of the claim.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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I'm still of the camp that you are probably just town doc who healed a town cop. The chances of this very weird edge case scenario are pretty low, but I figured I might as well mention it while I'm entertaining Meg's conspiracy theory.In post 2607, Amazonian Legends wrote:
I’m the queen of paranoid theories, but your two theories where scum decided not to kill the cop just aren’t very likely, at least in the case of most scum teams. I can’t imagine a scum team deciding to just not kill a claimed cop in a game with at least four cops without having a counter to the cop. There are just too many variables you can’t control; the risk is way too high for no guarantee of a tiny reward. Unless you can neuter the cop, thou shall not suffer a cop to live.In post 2605, Tejate Raichu wrote:Ah, real quick something just occurred to me in regards to 2601. Again, this is still wild conspiracy theory stuff so take this with a grain of salt.
5) doc!Amazonian protects cop!fua... but scum didn't night kill anyone. Let's think about option 3 for a second, why does the scum (possibly) attempting such a play have to be fua? I even noted in this possibility that there is no real guarantee of success which made it seem unlikely, but what if it failed? What if the scum tried to draw in the doctor for this play but ended up needlessly confirming fua?
Okay enough of that. By the way, I really like 2604. Overall I've actually liked a number of nQ's posts better than day 1, regardless of the claim.
Having a minimum of four cops is why I also don’t think there was a no kill. Is it possible, yes, but I don’t think it’s likely at this moment.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Nothing, it just hurts my soul a little when people just give up in mafia. Unless you're literally mechconfirmed evil and there's nothing you can say to your benefit, I think people should at least try in situations like this. I have not seen any such effort from redtea, so it just disappoints me a bit.In post 2624, morph the cat wrote:
What leads you to think this is an attainable hope?In post 2623, Tejate Raichu wrote:I was kinda hoping redtea would offer a little more than "hmm yes the game state is interesting" with no elaboration. Oh well. I have no problem with a hammer right about now.
I'm NOT suggesting a hammer. Not until Tammyhydra is ready to end it.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Good morning. This topic of contention is dreadfully boring, so I'll say this. If fua is lying and doesn't retract their guilty result before the end of Day 3, I'll move to policy lim them. We good on that whole WIFOM debate now? Cause fua is almost certainly town and an investigation on morph makes sense.
Onto topics I actually find interesting to discuss at length, I may need to do some re-working of my reads. If morph flips red, at least one of implo and Shirou actually came up with that not very good reason to townread redtea on their own, as opposed to something thrown around in scum PT. If I had to pick scum out of those two, it would almost certainly be Shirou. implo's read on redtea, while pretty faulty on the logic front, is consistent with the rest of his posts. Shirou's recent posts shortly below the redtea elim do not sound as if they come from town, at all.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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I don't think that's really the only reason. The main reason those posts even came about in the first place is because I drew an associative between them and redtea. I said that their read on redtea was just barely committed enough that they could push wagons on other people, while also easily throwing redtea to the wolves if need be, but showed no intention of actually doing such. Once it was clear that redtea was the new wagon, I saw nothing but resistance. The weird posts are just the cherry on top.In post 2684, numberQ wrote:
Are you talking about Shirou's case on GL and their plan to no lim today? Out of Shirou's entire ISO that's really the only section that's given me reason to hard scumread them, whereas I've felt implo has given me several reasons to scumread.In post 2669, Tejate Raichu wrote:Good morning. This topic of contention is dreadfully boring, so I'll say this. If fua is lying and doesn't retract their guilty result before the end of Day 3, I'll move to policy lim them. We good on that whole WIFOM debate now? Cause fua is almost certainly town and an investigation on morph makes sense.
Onto topics I actually find interesting to discuss at length, I may need to do some re-working of my reads. If morph flips red, at least one of implo and Shirou actually came up with that not very good reason to townread redtea on their own, as opposed to something thrown around in scum PT. If I had to pick scum out of those two, it would almost certainly be Shirou. implo's read on redtea, while pretty faulty on the logic front, is consistent with the rest of his posts. Shirou's recent posts shortly below the redtea elim do not sound as if they come from town, at all.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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It heavily strikes me as the reaction of a scum who realizes how close their team composition is to being solved. No elimming there would have been anti-town for sure, in most circumstances it's pretty much always better to lim a scum sooner than later. Even if they are likely to be limmed later. And yet, despite this fact that should have been apparent, considering Shirou and I believe implosion as well even called me out earlier in the game for focusing too much on info from flips... Shirou was the one actively campaigning that we skip out on a vote on someone who is, at best, null and never going to improve beyond that. I have already described why I thought they were worse than null.
Even with the mis-elim from yesterday, the no kill on night 1 combined with a day 2 elim on scum puts the mafia team in a pretty horrible position. Even delaying redtea's death one day would improve things a tiny bit for scum.
Point is, it reeks of panic. The N3 cop claim is very convenient for scum in that position. And the over-eagerness to state that they're "going to be wagoned soon" when it's clear from the gamestate that there is zero chance that happens UNLESS town followed my suggestion to cop them, tastes like scum who wants to dodge being caught out as much as they can.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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I don't think it is. AL would have been near impossible to mis-elim and they know that no one is likely to protect them. On night 1 they went for a risk, on night 2 they went for a guarantee. Makes sense to me.In post 2713, implosion wrote:AL is sort of a strange kill; of all the AL-fua-ceph conf-ish-town morass, they're the one slot with a definitely useless role. I feel like that's a very strange kill for scum who is seemingly in a quite bad position to make and wonder if it means something significant.
As for why they didn't kill a town!Shirou, well that's quite simple isn't it? Shirou no longer has the same wagon pushing power he had day 1. He's no longer largely immune to suspicion. Of course, that's assuming he's town... plus, we've had several doctor claims by now and a dead doc at the time of night 2, so the chances of there being a N3 doc are statistically not very high, especially if we're in 6-4. As we saw night 1, scum is presumably willing to take that risk.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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I said that mainly because I was giving fua's claim the benefit of the doubt (2 scum found = at least one of you is guaranteed town), I don't think that applies quite as well now. I still think you two are sus as hell, Shirou moreso.In post 2718, implosion wrote:I want to look more at meg/tejate associatives with redtea; the possible Shirou associatives are obvious ofc. tejate saying that he's like, looking for reasons why it wouldn't be me/shirou is also quite interesting.
But, I'm still willing to look at other options.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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I actually think Ceph was more likely to get healed than Amazonians. They have yet to claim (possible cop, mafia wants this dead and as such other night 2 docs are more likely attracted to it). In my opinion the night kill would have had to be one of those two since they're both all but innocent children at that point.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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I didn't say I necessarily disagreed, just that I can see where the nightkill might have come from. I'd rather not offer my opinions on who I personally would night kill in these situations until after the game, I'd rather not give mafia hints.In post 2732, implosion wrote:I also agree... those are the same reasons Ceph would be a better shot, particularly from scum who are losing and would need to take risks.
I'll just drop it, this point is probably just me projecting the way I think about things in a kind of not useful way.
That being said, I don't think it really could have been anyone but Amazonian or Ceph. fua might have been on the table in hopes that Enchant would WIFOM their night action (which they apparently were tempted to do and I can't blame them).-
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Nope.In post 2789, morph the cat wrote:...Interesting.
Have you played in a game with popcorn claiming before, Tejate?-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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If you are town, then whatever the hell this gambit is... you overcorrected greatly. I don't know if GL would have done it, but I knew well that there was 0 chance of pushing you without a guilty cop result. That is the main reason I wanted the non-existent N2 cop to check you. If you had held back and not made those posts, we would still probably be the only people in the game with decently solid SRs on you. I may not be as widely scumread anymore, but it should be fairly obvious to you that I'm not in the same standing as someone like Amazonian was. Do you honestly think I could have pushed a wagon you D3 without those posts? I was willing to hang back and advocate for a cop check. And maybe GL would have, but I highly doubt it would have gone far.
I can understand not wanting to be the night kill, but it should have been obvious that it was never going to be you. Not for night 2. Scum at the moment redtea became the main wagon had to reduce PoE as soon as possible. If anything, you were already SR'd just enough to not be the night kill even if we didn't have 3 pretty confirmed townies.
Also, I agree with GL's sentiment. Just about all of this reads like something scum would be saying to get out of a misplay.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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You know what? If we don't all immediately dogpile on Shirou, I'd actually not be entirely opposed to a no-elim ---> Shirou tomorrow now that we have one scum out and are effectively ahead in terms of dead town vs dead scum. Worst case scenario, we flip one scum a day late when we still have plenty of time and we have ideas on who Shirou's scumbuddies could be.
Or, if Shirou flips town and has a guilty result on GL, we can quick-lim GL and either way we have 1 scum left. I highly, highly doubt that Shirou is scumbuddies with GL. There was literally no reason for GL to turn on someone who seems to have been set up to deepwolf, especially when the only other person throwing significant shade on their slot is someone who was almost a wagon.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Pretty sure implo was just claiming for the sake of that plan.In post 2962, morph the cat wrote:Are we seriously mass claiming today?-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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If it helps quell your doubts, I still think Shirou is megascum but I'm okay with letting him live one day since we are very much ahead. If we're wrong on scum!Shirou, then the investigation result has value. If not, we can ignore it. I see no-elim ---> Shirou elim as a win/win pretty much, and as such I actually no longer think it's a good idea to cop Shirou in these circumstances. He's either a night kill, or an elim.In post 2927, numberQ wrote:I mulled on it over night and I guess it does make sense to leave Shirou alive today. It gives me a lot of pause though because the biggest proponent of that plan is the person who's at the chopping block. So if Shirou is scum that means Shirou getting out this investigation factors into scum's plans somehow. But idk, maybe it's just desperation to last as long as possible.
Actually, even if Shirou isn't scum, there hasn't been much push to lim him today besides from me, and I don't think that would be a difficult mislim to pull off. Which means either way him surviving to tomorrow is part of scum's plan.
hmm. I'm gonna leave my vote here but I plan to look back and focus on who the other scum might be.
Probably the only thing left giving me pause on scum!Shirou is that this is kind of like looking in a mirror. This is almost exactly what half of my day 2 was.In post 2938, GuiltyLion wrote:stop posting self defenses and start scumhunting, no one is limming you today by virtue of your claim you have a free day, and you're still just pumping out wall after wall about why you don't play this way as scum, which is virtually useless. that's why I haven't been interested in what you have to say, defending yourself is literally the least valuable thing you could be doing for me right now
That being said, I'll place my vote now. If you've paid attention to my posts today this shouldn't really be a big surprise.
VOTE: No Elimination
We're still a good ways away from LiLo, and on the off chance Shirou is town we potentially get valuble results or force scumteam to be one down on mis-elim.-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Morph isn't really that strong of a scumcase for me, I feel like I have maybe a slightly better read on them but I'm still not all that confident. I'll vote them if you guys are that convinced that they'll flip red, but I think this vote is pretty sound mechanically speaking.In post 2968, GuiltyLion wrote:Tejate why No Elim over Morph elim? I get why we shouldn't lim Shirou, but that doesn't mean we have to vote no elim-
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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- Posts: 806
- Joined: December 21, 2021
- Location: PST
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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- Posts: 806
- Joined: December 21, 2021
- Location: PST
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Tejate Raichu Goon
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- Posts: 806
- Joined: December 21, 2021
- Location: PST