Open 837: Cop Killer - Endgame

[Roden]

VOTE: Salsa

I'll get you this time.

[Roden]

Hello hello old friends and new

VOTE: Roden

Didn't like his first post, I think using a past game to justify RVS vote is inherently a lil awkward

Also I like Galron for town

Awkward post.

Aight, mech stuff:


A50 gets all hammers. He should check to make sure NM is around when doing so to prevent scum from twilight strategizing.

We should policy eliminate all posts that look like attempts at coordinating nightkills, even very obvious joke ones, because letting the scum talk to each other puts us at a severe disadvantage.

A50 should say who he’s going to target each night so long as the doc remains hidden for the purposes of WIFOM protection.

Doc claims should be left alive in all circumstances. If they’re fake, the real doc will probably shoot them. If they’re real the scum won’t shoot them because of the possibility of the real doc shooting them (neither team will know if it’s a real or fakeclaim) and we should be able to work backwards from number of kills to determine whether they were real or not.

Good post.

LQ is being fined a grand total of $0.99 for being late to the party. Further delay may result in stripping him off his

clothes

title as moon & sea joiner.

VOTE: LQ

[Roden]

Awkward post

Does that make it any more townie or scummy in your eyes? The implication would be that it's scummy, but here you then go voting a player that hasn't posted yet instead of a player attracting votes. Not a very satisfying reply

Because I only have one vote.

Makes me feel like Roden wanted to discredit my vote as non-confrontationally as possible

Ok, good to know we've never played before then.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Roden]

Awkward post

Does that make it any more townie or scummy in your eyes? The implication would be that it's scummy, but here you then go voting a player that hasn't posted yet instead of a player attracting votes. Not a very satisfying reply

Because I only have one vote.

Makes me feel like Roden wanted to discredit my vote as non-confrontationally as possible

Ok, good to know we've never played before then.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

This is over aggro. Sort of feels fake.

How is that over aggro?

Because I only have one vote.

Yes, right, and my point was you chose to use that singular vote on a player who hadn't posted yet rather than one who you just said was awkward, who was already drawing attention in the thread. This isn't a counterpoint?

Ok...?

Why do you think I should have voted you before LQ?

This is over aggro. Sort of feels fake.

being fair to Roden, I basically challenged him in my last post to go at me, so I'm not surprised to see him bite back. What I'd like to actually hear from him though is why he thinks my behavior is more likely to come from me as scum than me as town, because that's what's missing

Where did I say this?

Ok, good to know we've never played before then.

also, what am I supposed to take from this? That you are always non-confrontational and it isn't AI? or are you saying that you actually

are

confrontational as town? because that would make you addressing my vote on you by calling me "awkward" while joke voting an empty slot even worse

I am very confrontational lol. But you're assuming a lot of things here and implying I have scummy intentions

Like, what does it matter that I voted LQ? Do you think I'm saving you for later to line up mis-elims? It's RVS, nothing I say right now has any actual meaning beyond seeing reactions. If anything, it's weirdly self-conscious of you to assume awkward = scummy.

[Roden]

It's RVS, nothing I say right now has any actual meaning beyond seeing reactions

Nah, you and GL have moved right on out of RVS with this little kerfuffle

I don't consent to this.

im not sure i actually understand where the recent argument/kerfuffle/case/push/whatever surrounding guiltylion came from; imma try reading again.

Same tbh.

Ok...?

Why do you think I should have voted you before LQ?

I don't like early game memeing, it's by and large just noise. Scumhunting at this stage for me is about poking at/pressuring people who look like they don't have a comfortable place to vote or people who aren't using their vote for any real purpose. Once people have posted and started doing stuff, voting somebody who hasn't posted at all yet is about the lowest information play possible.

This is an even weirder excuse to attack me when we have people voting the IC. Why are you ignoring them?

If a townie thinks me being awkward makes me more likely to be scum, they should vote me, because that will actually generate useful content for them both in terms of how I respond and how other players interpret/react to the vote. Nobody has anything to say about a vote on a player who hasn't posted yet. So I don't like that you expressed a perfectly good reason to vote me at this stage ("awkward post") and instead put that vote on LQ, I think town should be more proactive pushing for reactions and content from players they find suspicious. Somebody who hasn't posted within a day of gamestart is not suspicious.

I didn't say it was scummy though. And I made a point of saying I didn't think it was scummy. I didn't have a reason to vote you there. You literally only sound scummy now because you're largely overreacting to something that wasn't that deep.

You say I didn't have a good reason to vote LQ and that doing so doesn't cause reactions and generate content. This is blatantly untrue though since it very much has.

Where did I say this?

It's RVS, nothing I say right now has any actual meaning beyond seeing reactions. If anything, it's weirdly self-conscious of you to assume awkward = scummy.

That's why literally my first question in 119 was whether you think "awkward post" is townie or scummy. I am not here for passive shade that's left up for interpretation by the reader. If you don't believe it's scummy in your heart of hearts, you probably shouldn't be suggesting that it could be. And if you do believe it might be scummy, then you should leverage that to pressure me. [That's why I asked Auro why he wasn't voting me as well!]

I didn't suggest anything. You keep assuming things and acting you're trying to play 4D chess with me.

This weaseling of "I didn't say it was scummy!" doesn't at all address the main issue I'm trying to force here - if anything it's just exacerbating it - which is that you felt a need to respond to my vote but didn't use your response to either sort me or push me, and that's low-info play that has so far just reinforced my early bad gutfeels about you

Cool, I don't care.

[Roden]

It's RVS, nothing I say right now has any actual meaning beyond seeing reactions

Nah, you and GL have moved right on out of RVS with this little kerfuffle

agreed, and, it kinda bugs me? like, claiming "rvs lol" after multiple people have put forward seemingly serious reasons (and not just between lion and roden, we also have lq attempting meta on pav) is, ehhhhh?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Roden

RVS is scummy now.

[Roden]

WIM is already drastically dropping and I'm getting Scarlet Witch Day 1 vibes from this game.

[Roden]

VOTE: Roden

Acting very sus to pressure.

Literally what does this even mean

[Roden]

VOTE: Roden

Acting very sus to pressure.

Literally what does this even mean

That's for Town to know and you to find out.

Ah, I see, everyone else gets to say nonsense like this, but if I try to be casual and have fun then I'm just scum.

[Roden]

Also I don’t like 146 from Roden.

“People” are not voting the IC. One person (me) is voting the IC. Conflating an issue bigger than it is under pressure is not a good look.

Thanks for completely missing the point of my post!

[Roden]

Also I don’t like 146 from Roden.

“People” are not voting the IC. One person (me) is voting the IC. Conflating an issue bigger than it is under pressure is not a good look.

Thanks for completely missing the point of my post!

Why are you so defensive?

I'm not, I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

[Roden]

Also I don’t like 146 from Roden.

“People” are not voting the IC. One person (me) is voting the IC. Conflating an issue bigger than it is under pressure is not a good look.

Thanks for completely missing the point of my post!

I understand the context of it but I don’t think it has anything to do with what I said. I’m open to being corrected, tho.

Maybe that's because what you said had nothing to do with what I said.

[Roden]

Also I don’t like 146 from Roden.

“People” are not voting the IC. One person (me) is voting the IC. Conflating an issue bigger than it is under pressure is not a good look.

Thanks for completely missing the point of my post!

Why are you so defensive?

I'm not, I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

In other words, because of pressure?

Nope.

[Roden]

Also I don’t like 146 from Roden.

“People” are not voting the IC. One person (me) is voting the IC. Conflating an issue bigger than it is under pressure is not a good look.

Thanks for completely missing the point of my post!

Why are you so defensive?

I'm not, I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

In other words, because of pressure?

Nope.

I mean, I kinda expect you to just own it if you are Town here. This is a weird look. You're clearly concerned about getting votes.

Is there any particular reason you're ignoring the reasons I gave

[Roden]

Also I don’t like 146 from Roden.

“People” are not voting the IC. One person (me) is voting the IC. Conflating an issue bigger than it is under pressure is not a good look.

Thanks for completely missing the point of my post!

Why are you so defensive?

I'm not, I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

In other words, because of pressure?

Nope.

I mean, I kinda expect you to just own it if you are Town here. This is a weird look. You're clearly concerned about getting votes.

Is there any particular reason you're ignoring the reasons I gave

Not much to look into there. You're just saying, "I'm Town," in that post.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Roden]

You're annoyed you are getting voted because you are Town. That's what I'm getting from why you are so defensive. You say you're not being defensive but you express being annoyed based on being voted. Your explanation is that you are annoyed because your are Town, but I have no reason to just believe that you are Town because you say so.

That...wasn't what I said at all.

[Roden]

You're annoyed you are getting voted because you are Town. That's what I'm getting from why you are so defensive. You say you're not being defensive but you express being annoyed based on being voted. Your explanation is that you are annoyed because your are Town, but I have no reason to just believe that you are Town because you say so.

That...wasn't what I said at all.

I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

???

What are you confused about?

[Roden]

This seems very cut and dry to me.

[Roden]

Honestly LQ why are you scum reading me at all when you've recently seen two of my scum games in depth? You should know this isn't it from my opening posts alone.

[Roden]

No one has called you toxic yet? I have no idea what that is about...

I didn't say anyone did?

[Roden]

All this discussion because I misclicked the Q+ button huh

No it's because GL though my LQ vote was 4D chess.

[Roden]

Honestly LQ why are you scum reading me at all when you've recently seen two of my scum games in depth? You should know this isn't it from my opening posts alone.

How would you describe being different in those games?

Clearly not this because I didn't get wagon'd those games and had an informed perspective.

[Roden]

You're annoyed you are getting voted because you are Town. That's what I'm getting from why you are so defensive. You say you're not being defensive but you express being annoyed based on being voted. Your explanation is that you are annoyed because your are Town, but I have no reason to just believe that you are Town because you say so.

That...wasn't what I said at all.

I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

???

What are you confused about?

Maybe rephrase what it is you said so I can see more clearly what you were trying to communicate?

I don't know how else to phrase it.

No one has called you toxic yet? I have no idea what that is about...

I didn't say anyone did?

Then IDK what your point is with that then.

Am I being gaslight here

There's clearly a relevant part of that post that you keep ignoring

[Roden]

All this discussion because I misclicked the Q+ button huh

No it's because GL though my LQ vote was 4D chess.

It was clearly a joke vote. I even said "LOL" to it. But then GL starts poking at things and Roden all of a sudden starts mildly freaking out because they are getting pressured. The whole thing is just weird.

That's a gross misinterpretation of what happened.

Honestly LQ why are you scum reading me at all when you've recently seen two of my scum games in depth? You should know this isn't it from my opening posts alone.

How would you describe being different in those games?

Clearly not this because I didn't get wagon'd those games and had an informed perspective.

Well, this answer is exactly what I expect from Scum!Roden, so ???

You think I purposely put myself in this situation as scum???

[Roden]

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

Not particularly.

You're annoyed you are getting voted because you are Town. That's what I'm getting from why you are so defensive. You say you're not being defensive but you express being annoyed based on being voted. Your explanation is that you are annoyed because your are Town, but I have no reason to just believe that you are Town because you say so.

That...wasn't what I said at all.

I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

???

What are you confused about?

Maybe rephrase what it is you said so I can see more clearly what you were trying to communicate?

I don't know how else to phrase it.

Do you seriously not get my point?

No one has called you toxic yet? I have no idea what that is about...

I didn't say anyone did?

Then IDK what your point is with that then.

Am I being gaslight here

There's clearly a relevant part of that post that you keep ignoring

No one is gaslighting you.

What part is that?

The part you keep ignoring!!

[Roden]

All this discussion because I misclicked the Q+ button huh

No it's because GL though my LQ vote was 4D chess.

It was clearly a joke vote. I even said "LOL" to it. But then GL starts poking at things and Roden all of a sudden starts mildly freaking out because they are getting pressured. The whole thing is just weird.

That's a gross misinterpretation of what happened.

Okay, then explain it to me like I'm 5.

Honestly LQ why are you scum reading me at all when you've recently seen two of my scum games in depth? You should know this isn't it from my opening posts alone.

How would you describe being different in those games?

Clearly not this because I didn't get wagon'd those games and had an informed perspective.

Well, this answer is exactly what I expect from Scum!Roden, so ???

You think I purposely put myself in this situation as scum???

I would not put it past you. You are quite Wiley as Scum.

VOTE: LQ

I'm gonna have to draw the line at accusing me of purposely getting myself scum read to avoid getting scum read. That isn't a real thought process.

[Roden]

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

I was wrong, it actually did help me sort LQ.

[Roden]

The part you keep ignoring!!

Which is what? You're not helping yourself here. I sense some manipulative vibes from you here. Please just explain it so we can move on.

I'm not, I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

There's one part of this post that you've ignored to a cartoonish degree now.

[Roden]

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

I was wrong, it actually did help me sort LQ.

You are the one who said it. I didn't say it, I just said I wouldn't put it past you to do that because you ARE wiley as Scum. Like, you should fully understand how I am getting there, but you OMGUS me instead.

Yeah you can stop, you did say it lol. I asked you the question and you answered it clearly.

[Roden]

VOTE: Roden

Acting very sus to pressure.

Literally what does this even mean

That's for Town to know and you to find out.

Ah, I see, everyone else gets to say nonsense like this, but if I try to be casual and have fun then I'm just scum.

your reaction was OTT. Was it not? Am I just making that up? I don't think I am.

What makes it OTT?

The part you keep ignoring!!

Which is what? You're not helping yourself here. I sense some manipulative vibes from you here. Please just explain it so we can move on.

I'm not, I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

There's one part of this post that you've ignored to a cartoonish degree now.

I literally addressed exactly what you said there. This is Scum trying to play all sneaky like. IDK how to make sense of your play as Town here.

Why won't you acknowledge the one part of the post that we both know you've been ignoring?

[Roden]

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

Not particularly.

i understand that youve since decided this take was incorrect, but rewinding back a bit -- why on earth would you participate in over a page of conversation that you didnt [at the time] believe was useful?

Full disclosure, I just wanted to win the argument with LQ because I thought he was just wrong. Now I'm just at a point where I think he's just arguing in bad faith and purposely trying to get a reaction out of me.

[Roden]

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

Not particularly.

i understand that youve since decided this take was incorrect, but rewinding back a bit -- why on earth would you participate in over a page of conversation that you didnt [at the time] believe was useful?

I would have expected more frustration from Roden if they were Town here, FWIW. But they just go along with it and dismiss everything I'm saying.

How could you possibly think I'm not frustrated, what the fuck

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

I was wrong, it actually did help me sort LQ.

You are the one who said it. I didn't say it, I just said I wouldn't put it past you to do that because you ARE wiley as Scum. Like, you should fully understand how I am getting there, but you OMGUS me instead.

Yeah you can stop, you did say it lol. I asked you the question and you answered it clearly.

I literally said I wouldn't put it past you. That doesn't mean that is what I was originally thinking. I was pressuring you and then YOU were the one who came up with that. It makes me feel like you were planning this out or something.

How could I possibly plan this out??

VOTE: Roden

Acting very sus to pressure.

Literally what does this even mean

That's for Town to know and you to find out.

Ah, I see, everyone else gets to say nonsense like this, but if I try to be casual and have fun then I'm just scum.

your reaction was OTT. Was it not? Am I just making that up? I don't think I am.

What makes it OTT?

Your emotion ladened words. The fact you said people think you are being toxic when no one said that, for example. There was some earlier stuff there too. Like how you got super smug with GL and then voted them in 128. I could probably find more examples even.

Emotion =/= OTT. I never said anyone in this game thought I was toxic. I definitely wasn't smug with GL lol.

The part you keep ignoring!!

Which is what? You're not helping yourself here. I sense some manipulative vibes from you here. Please just explain it so we can move on.

I'm not, I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

There's one part of this post that you've ignored to a cartoonish degree now.

I literally addressed exactly what you said there. This is Scum trying to play all sneaky like. IDK how to make sense of your play as Town here.

Why won't you acknowledge the one part of the post that we both know you've been ignoring?

Because I literally have zero idea what I am ignoring. And I keep asking you to tell me and you just don't!

Nah, you know what it is. I don't buy your fake ignorance.

[Roden]

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

Not particularly.

i understand that youve since decided this take was incorrect, but rewinding back a bit -- why on earth would you participate in over a page of conversation that you didnt [at the time] believe was useful?

Full disclosure, I just wanted to win the argument with LQ because I thought he was just wrong. Now I'm just at a point where I think he's just arguing in bad faith and purposely trying to get a reaction out of me.

How am I arguing in bad faith? Like, what I am doing is what I do all the time. This accusation that I am somehow being disingenuous here is crazy.

This whole argument started because you kept shading me and refuse to acknowledge parts of my posts while repeating other parts out of context to accuse me of things I never said.

[Roden]

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

Not particularly.

i understand that youve since decided this take was incorrect, but rewinding back a bit -- why on earth would you participate in over a page of conversation that you didnt [at the time] believe was useful?

I would have expected more frustration from Roden if they were Town here, FWIW. But they just go along with it and dismiss everything I'm saying.

How could you possibly think I'm not frustrated, what the fuck

By your outright dismissal of what I am saying. Like dismissal isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think 'frustrated.'

Not only have I not been dismissal, that wouldn't mean I wasn't frustrated anyway.

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

I was wrong, it actually did help me sort LQ.

You are the one who said it. I didn't say it, I just said I wouldn't put it past you to do that because you ARE wiley as Scum. Like, you should fully understand how I am getting there, but you OMGUS me instead.

Yeah you can stop, you did say it lol. I asked you the question and you answered it clearly.

I literally said I wouldn't put it past you. That doesn't mean that is what I was originally thinking. I was pressuring you and then YOU were the one who came up with that. It makes me feel like you were planning this out or something.

How could I possibly plan this out??

IDK but I'm pretty sure Scum have a PT for things just like this.

What? What??? I have multiple votes on me! This doesn't even make sense!

VOTE: Roden

Acting very sus to pressure.

Literally what does this even mean

That's for Town to know and you to find out.

Ah, I see, everyone else gets to say nonsense like this, but if I try to be casual and have fun then I'm just scum.

your reaction was OTT. Was it not? Am I just making that up? I don't think I am.

What makes it OTT?

Your emotion ladened words. The fact you said people think you are being toxic when no one said that, for example. There was some earlier stuff there too. Like how you got super smug with GL and then voted them in
128. I could probably find more examples even.

Emotion =/= OTT. I never said anyone in this game thought I was toxic. I definitely wasn't smug with GL lol.

You saying "lol" here tells me you are NOT frustrated.

You've got to be fucking with me at this point

The part you keep ignoring!!

Which is what? You're not helping yourself here. I sense some manipulative vibes from you here. Please just explain it so we can move on.

I'm not, I'm just annoyed that every time I try to have fun as town I get dog piled, and when I try hard as town I essentially get called toxic.

There's one part of this post that you've ignored to a cartoonish degree now.

I literally addressed exactly what you said there. This is Scum trying to play all sneaky like. IDK how to make sense of your play as Town here.

Why won't you acknowledge the one part of the post that we both know you've been ignoring?

Because I literally have zero idea what I am ignoring. And I keep asking you to tell me and you just don't!

Nah, you know what it is. I don't buy your fake ignorance.

No, I literally don't. IDEK what I am missing here. Please just explain it because it makes you look like an eel with not telling me.

Quote the post and delete what you haven't addressed.

[Roden]

lickety and roden, do either/both of you actually find this back-and-forth useful?

Not particularly.

i understand that youve since decided this take was incorrect, but rewinding back a bit -- why on earth would you participate in over a page of conversation that you didnt [at the time] believe was useful?

Full disclosure, I just wanted to win the argument with LQ because I thought he was just wrong. Now I'm just at a point where I think he's just arguing in bad faith and purposely trying to get a reaction out of me.

How am I arguing in bad faith? Like, what I am doing is what I do all the time. This accusation that I am somehow being disingenuous here is crazy.

This whole argument started because you kept shading me and refuse to acknowledge parts of my posts while repeating other parts out of context to accuse me of things I never said.

But you can't seriously think those were things I didn't actually take issue with. What is LQ like at the beginning of a game? I literally give reads. That's what I do. And then I usually reevaluate, but you're not giving me any reason to do that at this point.

What things...?

VOTE: Roden

Acting very sus to pressure.

Literally what does this even mean

That's for Town to know and you to find out.

This is what started it.

[Roden]

VOTE: Salsa

That's E-1 btw, not hammer.

[Roden]

Spoiler:

VC 1.09

Galron (0)-

Enchant (1)-

Auro

Pavowski (0)-

Almost50 (0)-

Roden (3)-

GuiltyLion, LicketyQuickety, Auro

Bingle (0)-

LicketyQuickety (1)-

Salsabil Faria

GuiltyLion (0)-

Salsabil Faria (7)-

T3, mc esther, Pavowski, Almost50, Galron, Roden, DArby

-ELIMINATED

DArby (0)-

Auro (0)-

mc esther (0)-

T3 (0)-

Not Voting (1)-

Galron

With

13

alive, it takes

7

to eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-07 10:00:00)

- Dec 7th 10:00 GMT

VC 1.07

Galron (0)-

Enchant (1)-

Salsabil Faria

Pavowski (0)-

Almost50 (0)-

Roden (4)-

GuiltyLion, LicketyQuickety, DArby, Auro

Bingle (0)-

LicketyQuickety (1)-

Roden

GuiltyLion (0)-

Salsabil Faria (5)-

T3, mc esther, Pavowski, Bingle, Almost50,

DArby (1)-

Enchant

Auro (0)-

mc esther (0)-

T3 (0)-

Not Voting (2)-

Galron,

With

13

alive, it takes

7

to eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-07 10:00:00)

- Dec 7th 10:00 GMT

VC 1.08

Galron (0)-

Enchant (0)-

Pavowski (0)-

Almost50 (0)-

Roden (3)-

GuiltyLion, LicketyQuickety, Auro

Bingle (0)-

LicketyQuickety (3)-

Roden, Salsabil Faria, DArby

GuiltyLion (0)-

Salsabil Faria (5)-

T3, mc esther, Pavowski, Almost50, Galron

(E-2)

DArby (1)-

Enchant

Auro (0)-

mc esther (0)-

T3 (0)-

Not Voting (1)-

Galron

With

13

alive, it takes

7

to eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-07 10:00:00)

- Dec 7th 10:00 GMT

Roden salsa TvT makes me feel better about Darby. No reason for scum to lend weight to a new wagon when there’s dueling wagons on not your team.

Was anyone cheerleading the roden salsa fight?

We were fighting? I dipped from the game for a couple days, came back, saw Salsa was a leading wagon and voted her just to see what would happen. I think I only interacted with her once before that, way back during RVS. We had competing wagons technically but that was purely from outside influences.

Also what so you mean about Darby "lending weight" to a new wagon? He quick hammered Salsa. Since I'm now conftown, don't you think it's possible that he's scum who thought he could get me mis-elim'd if Salsa flipped town and gain town credit if she flipped scum? And what makes you certain none of the competing wagons were on his team? LQ's alignment isn't confirmed and I'm still certain he's scum.

Also I kinda feel bad that I'm the only conftown now even though I've been absent for most of the game. I was hoping A50 would target someone who was leading the discussion so town could know whether or not they could be trusted. I'll start rereading the thread but probably skip most of my argument with LQ since I'm confident he's just scum at this point, unless every single leading wagon was on town and he actually did just majorly misread me.

VOTE: LQ

Btw GL, now you know my RVS vote really was just RVS. It really shouldn't have taken a Cop check to figure that out, here we are I guess.

[Roden]

Enchant hammer salsa
Do it

I hate this game.

Can you explain why you wanted Salsa out so badly?

[Roden]

UNVOTE:

I've changed my mind on LQ. I thought they were scum for multiple reasons, the biggest being how dishonest he was in his argument with me and how bad faith his case against me was. But I've been scum with him before and I'm hesitant to believe he'd get in a shit fight with me when that's gotten him elim'd before. Like I just don't I understand why he'd put himself out there like that, there's no reason for it.

LQ can you tell me who your top five scum reads are? The only thing I'm worried about at this point is that you're only on the defensive right now. Town!you seems to be a lot more paranoid and more willing to scum read a handful of people at a time. But you're not really making any significant pushes and your "gotcha!" attempt on Bingle was weird.

[Roden]

I also town read Galron T3 and GL. Galron is a gut read based on how he reacted to my wagon, T3 because he doesn't metabad as scum, and GL just because logically they are sound and care more about being right than actually winning this game.

So to me the scum teams are somewhere within Enchant, Pav, Bingle, Darby, Auro, and Esther. I think we have the strongest chance of hitting scum if we vote within those first three names today.

VOTE: Enchant

[Roden]

this actually strengthens my read on lickety. i asked earlier whether he was likely to know that he could bait you into that sort of fight, the fact that the answer is "yes" definitely makes me believe he was intentionally trying to clog up the thread.

i do think enchant is a decent wagon (although, it's complicated!), but i'd much rather lickety.

This is partially why I've changed my mind on him though. I think he'd try to avoid attention if he were scum, not get into a shit fight. But I do want to get some reads out of him before the Day ends in case I die tonight, since I don't want my final words to be incorrectly town locking him. Because I do think he's liable to shit fight as town but I feel like he should definitely be more paranoid about the rest of the player list. When I faced off as scum against town!LQ, he tried to figure out who I was teamed with when he scum read me and I'm just not seeing it from him this game.

[Roden]

So either everyone targeted A50 or only Team Fire did

and somebody else got doc's and frozen

, right?

Seems more likely monkey got tripled up

I don't think this can have a drawback for asking publicly given how obvious a question it is, so:

@mod: Are death flavors indicative of who made the kill? If they are, what are the specific flavors for a Fire Kill, an Ice Kill, a Doc Kill, and an all three kill?

NM should be able (have to actually) answer that because this is an open.

Yes death flavours are indicative. Ice Mafia is

Frozen

, Fire Mafia is

Incinerated

and a CPR Doc kill is

Shocked

. If all three were to target a player, the fire and ice mafia kills would cancel out and the CPR Doc would kill the player. I will add this to the rules section.

Pav - how did you know the Ice Team's flavor was "frozen" specifically? I don't recall seeing that anywhere prior to N_M editing the posts.

Tbf I kinda pieced that together myself.

I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to figure that out tbh.

What do you think of Pav's reaction?

[Roden]

T3 because he doesn't metabad as scum

Just realized this could be interpreted as mean-spirited. What I meant is that town!T3 uses meta and is fallible. Scum!T3 really just TMI's when he meta reads someone because he almost always meta reads townies as town to get town cred for himself. The one time I've seen him meta read somebody as scum, it was his scum buddy lol. When scum!T3 pushes somebody as a scum read and they're a townie it's almost never a meta read.

This is just my own analysis of his playstyle though, it isn't 100% accurate. But I can usually at the very least trust his town reads no matter his alignment.

[Roden]

This game I played with T3 and there's plenty of walls in my play there. I was Limmed D1 there so my play wasn't stellar, but it's another read that has me shaking my head going, "What? Do people even know how I play or what?"

Currently ISO diving everyone to see progression, and I will say that this leaves me scratching my head. I made the exact same appeal to LQ about the exact same game, and he just...unironically does the same thing that he said made me scum. Like I don't know how he doesn't see this.

[Roden]

I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to figure that out tbh.

I don't think it is either, but I could see what GL sees to some part in the direct use of that word. Personally if I hadn't given it any thought I would've phrased it as "killed by the other faction", but Pavowski mentioning Team Fire explicitly earlier in his post suggests some thought to it.

I don't disagree. Pav's reaction felt off to me but I haven't seen anyone else comment on that specifically yet. I don't want to give my opinion on it until others do though so I don't influence anyone.

[Roden]

Wait. You are Conf Town? How so?

Wait. You are Conf Town? How so?

635

Oh, I missed that.

Also, someone explain why Roden is confirmed Town because I'm not getting that.

@Roden: leave that, he's not paying any attention to the game whatsoever lol

I thought I was seeing deja vu in his posts lmao

[Roden]

Hello i am Doc on E-1.

I saved Roden (well i actually tried to kill but ok).

Unvote pls ty.

I had a feeling this happened last night...

UNVOTE:

So if Enchant is telling the truth, this tells us a couple things.

- Ice team either misread my lack of WIM as PR lurking or wanted a low info kill.

- Ice team wasn't worried about potential town threats making a case against them Day 2.

I think this suggests the Ice team consists of players who haven't really played with me before, and are either generally town read and/or are active and have been investigative.

We still have time in the Day and I want to give LQ more time to talk and answer questions. It kind of seems like he's going to be the default elim today, and I while I do agree he does seem scummier under scrutiny, I still have some doubt. He hasn't bothered to engage with me since I became conftown and he doesn't really seem to be paying attention to the game, which makes me think if he's scum then he's just given up. If he does flip red he's likely been bussed, I think.

[Roden]

Could everyone give their reads on Bingle, Pav, and GL? With Enchant claiming Doc, the PoE continues to shrink and I think at least one of these three have to be scum.

My impression of Bingle is that they're playing a very strong game that makes me want to town read them. Tonally they're town, good mechanics advice, pressuring people who are otherwise just coasting by on content, and following through on suspicions and leads.

Pav feels a little hedgey to me when looking through his ISO. He addressed LQ vs me but didn't want to commit to any reads there, calling us TvT but also shading both of us multiple times. Handed out a bunch of town reads early on with little reasoning. He stoked the flames quite a bit on the Salsa wagon as well but never really got any heat for it. I asked Bingle for his thoughts on Pav's reaction to the scum slip accusation, and the reason I did was because Pav's response to the Frozen "slip" felt very controlled tonally, and the joke about mild refrigeration seemed like it was meant to defuse the situation more than anything else. I don't think it was necessarily a slip myself, but Pav almost seem panicked like as if he

had

perspective slipped even though his use of the term "Frozen" was reasonable.

GL I want to town read but he's been getting a surprising amount of suspicion from people who know him better than I do. I still think his reason me early game were awful, and his repeated attempts to justify them even after I became conftown don't sit right with me, though I think that's slightly more likely to come from town. I do think its strange that neither scum team seemed to consider him a threat though, then again the same could be said about Bingle.

VOTE: Pavowski for now.

[Roden]

Could everyone give their reads on Bingle, Pav, and GL? With Enchant claiming Doc, the PoE continues to shrink and I think at least one of these three have to be scum.

My impression of Bingle is that they're playing a very strong game that makes me want to town read them. Tonally they're town, good mechanics advice, pressuring people who are otherwise just coasting by on content, and following through on suspicions and leads.

Pav feels a little hedgey to me when looking through his ISO. He addressed LQ vs me but didn't want to commit to any reads there, calling us TvT but also shading both of us multiple times. Handed out a bunch of town reads early on with little reasoning. He stoked the flames quite a bit on the Salsa wagon as well but never really got any heat for it. I asked Bingle for his thoughts on Pav's reaction to the scum slip accusation, and the reason I did was because Pav's response to the Frozen "slip" felt very controlled tonally, and the joke about mild refrigeration seemed like it was meant to defuse the situation more than anything else. I don't think it was necessarily a slip myself, but Pav almost seem panicked like as if he

had

perspective slipped even though his use of the term "Frozen" was reasonable.

GL I want to town read but he's been getting a surprising amount of suspicion from people who know him better than I do. I still think his reason me early game were awful, and his repeated attempts to justify them even after I became conftown don't sit right with me, though I think that's slightly more likely to come from town. I do think its strange that neither scum team seemed to consider him a threat though, then again the same could be said about Bingle.

VOTE: Pavowski for now.

I like Bingle and GL for town, though I feel more confident about Bingle.

You seem ready to buy Enchant's doc claim. I am not so sure.

Town gains nothing from discussing a Doc claim, it'll resolve itself tonight. It doesn't matter whether or not I buy the claim, and mafia doesn't need to know how much any one of us believes or doubts the claim.

Do you have anything to say about my read on you?

[Roden]

The fact that I managed to talk myself out of scum reading LQ after I caught him early Day 1 and he did literally nothing to convince me he was town besides posting nonsense...

[Roden]

ill wait for everyone (especially darby and looker) to post before i vote, but lmao i think everyone already knows im voting t3 today.

We only eliminate T3 if we're certain he's LQ's partner. Even if we eliminate an Ice Mafia member today, town still auto loses.

[Roden]

Town:
Roden
mc esther - Townie sounding points.
Guilty Lion - Not seeing GL as Scum here. Their push on Roden looks bad in retrospect, but I'm guilty of the same thing.

Town Lean:
Bingle - Good thoughts, feel like he's actually trying to sort me.
DArby - Probably Town, but there was something that was bugging me about them near EoD. Would have to look and try and figure it out. Town Lean.

Null:
Enchant - IDK, higher activity? That's probably NAI
Pavowski - Null. Why are People TRing Pav? Is it based on pre-flip or what?
Auro - Having doubts here since I'm probably TRing Bingle and GL more at this point.
T3 - Don't really feel anything here.

Scum Lean:
Galron - I guess I have to have a Scum Lean somewhere. And I didn't really like that the were stiff at the SoD 1. Someone else made that comment and I went back to look and I can definitely see it. Their reaction to it was bad too.

VOTE: Galron

Trying to figure out who his partner from this but I'm not getting much from it.

Tbh I'm wondering why I'm still alive when neither scum team tried to kill Enchant. They instead NK'd Galron, who buried LQ, and GL, who was getting accused of faking his town game.

Galron was killed by the Ice team, so it wasn't a revenge kill from a Fire Mafia interestingly enough. Not really sure why Fire killed GL at all.

[Roden]

ill wait for everyone (especially darby and looker) to post before i vote, but lmao i think everyone already knows im voting t3 today.

We only eliminate T3 if we're certain he's LQ's partner. Even if we eliminate an Ice Mafia member today, town still auto loses.

Not necessarily. Fire/ice kills could cancel out.

I agree with your thinking tho

I'm assuming scum understand the massive advantage they have so I'm just going to speak freely here.

Let's imagine we elim an Ice Mafia today. That makes it 1-1-4. Scum wins if they each kill one townie, since they can have a dual victory if they eliminate/endgame town. They would have to coordinate the kill to achieve this though.

So, what's preventing Fire and Ice teams from coordinating the kill once they secure an elim that isn't the Fire team? With no CPR Doc, Mafia can freely coordinate during twilight and there's nothing we can do about it.

[Roden]

Yeah I agree that Bingle looks worse in the aftermath of the LQ flip. There's also the fact that Bingle was pretty widely town read, arguably even more than GL, but wasn't NK'd. However, Fire killed GL, and Bingle was pushing pretty hard against GL all game. Looker would've had to ignored that after replacing in, saw his slot was town read, and saw GL as a bigger threat than a conftown.

I know from the time I was partnered with LQ that his scum play is to distance from and fake appealing to his scum buddy. So I think there is a meta case here as well.

[Roden]

distance from and fake appealing to his scum buddy

i think the vote i quoted is a pretty clear case of distancing, but idk what do you specifically mean here? i dont really understand "distancing" and "appealing to" as compatible attitudes to display towards a player.

By fake appealing, I mean pretending to argue and convince your scum buddy to believe you.

[Roden]

Tbh I'm wondering why I'm still alive when neither scum team tried to kill Enchant.

As conftown, you're a pretty obvious target, and I guess you won the wifom game

I suppose. I'm just concerned another reason I was kept alive was that I had town in my PoE. It could also be because I had scum in my town reads and they thought it was better to keep me alive, which would point to Bingle and T3.

oh, yeah okay, "must eliminate fire" makes this more difficult.

i still maintain that by association, looker is the most likely lickety partner; but im a bit anxious about making that as a definite call, t3 could have easily been bussing.

yeah,

i could

but is it likely?

Honestly this just seems like a scum interaction. Ice team secures their win by bussing today and T3 seems to purposely trying to look scummy here.

[Roden]

how is that post scummy?

In what universe do you think "yeah I could have bussed but is it likely" is a townie thing to say? You're practically daring us to scum read you. Why would your only defense be that it isn't likely that you bussed? Especially when you aren't even giving actual reasons for why you wouldn't have bussed there.

[Roden]

how is that post scummy?

In what universe do you think "yeah I could have bussed but is it likely" is a townie thing to say? You're practically daring us to scum read you. Why would your only defense be that it isn't likely that you bussed? Especially when you aren't even giving actual reasons for why you wouldn't have bussed there.

.-.
It's not really my scum playstyle to bus in a situation where I don't have to for gamestate/read reasons (mbos 13).

I worded that badly.
Scum me probably soft defends LQ until he's flipped. Scum me usually busses only when forced to because I'm widely townread and need to keep the image up. (Mbos 13, Hanahaki, WNT)

MBOS 13 I was sitting around lean town in nearly everyone's readlist. I had two widely scumread deadweight partners who I kept shielding until I had to bus both of them in ELO or I would go down after them.
Hanhaki, both of my partners scumclaimed for idiotic reasons Day 2 and Day 3, I was widely townread. I deathbussed both of them and endgamed.
WNT I was widely townread. I hard bussed my deadweight partner Day 2 or else it would look slightly suspicious for me.
Those are the 3 examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Ok, I can believe this. I still think you could be Ice Mafia but you're likely not Fire Mafia.

Who do you think is LQ's partner? Consensus seems to be Bingle/Looker but the sudden drop in game activity is concerning.

[Roden]

O wow, this is going to be interesting. The shock was the Doc?

How does town win as of this post? Do we need to aim for one mafia over the other?

Esther quoted the post that explains the situation.

What's your stance on everything right now? General consensus so far is that your slot is most likely the last Fire Mafia. If it isn't you, who do you think it is?

[Roden]

The evidence looks really stacked against the Bingle/Looker slot tbh. Like I don't really have a case on anyone else, if it isn't Looker then it could literally be anyone else and I wouldn't be able to figure out just by reading posts. I've genuinely tried to look for any other possible partners through ISO skims this entire day phase but there's nothing I'd feel confident on as an alternative.

I've already explained my worry about being wrong about Looker. Though, the longer this day goes on with zero urgency and effort from them, the more I've got a bad feeling they're just waiting to get elim'd because they're Ice Mafia. At the very least they're not town because they aren't doing anything to stop their potential mis-elim.

If no one's against it, should we just vote? I don't see anyone else getting cased today, and the only thing that's giving me hesitation is the bad vibe but there's nothing that can be done about that.

[Roden]

Uh random idea, I think we can technically stop twilight coordination for the night kills if Looker is wrong. If everyone claims scum and a random NK target, the real scum teams won't know who's actually scum and town. Basically to try to drown out coordination with WIFOM on who's true claiming scum and who's gambitting as town, to try to get scum to accidentally target each other or target the same slot to cancel the kill. Idk, it's a weird idea but it's better than hoping we can hammer and get an immediate thread lock from NM.

Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

[Roden]

Discussing who's scum if it isn't you Looker just helps the scum teams decide who to night kill...

[Roden]

But if I'm fire, is ice dead already? Your single-mindedness is the issue I'm addressing. It's disingenuous.

No Ice Mafia have been flipped yet. And nobody here is single-minded, we've looked into everyone else and only T3 and maybe Auro looked like potential partners, but not nearly as much as Bingle had. If you aren't LQ's partner then you need to present a case on someone else.

[Roden]

But that's not fair - you're giving everyone permission to miselim by saying "Don't discuss anything cuz scum might WIFOM." That's going to happen anyway. If I were LQ's partner, I'd know the other team was going to kill you and just not submit an NK - then you'd be back where you started all over again and it'd be 1:2:2. Killing me doesn't save you.

???

What are you talking about? Nobody said not to discuss anything.

Discussing who's scum if it isn't you Looker just helps the scum teams decide who to night kill...

The point of this specifically is to not discuss who the Fire Mafia actually is

if we're proven wrong after the elimination happens

, but if anyone thinks right now that you're not Fire Mafia then obviously we should discuss that.

I'm just saying. Give me time, discuss what happens if you're wrong. Explain why Pav and Auro aren't the scums. There's still time on the clock.

Like this just implies you want us to explain who we think the Ice Mafia are, which I did give my take on since I 100% have to die tonight if we do successfully elim LQ's partner, but otherwise doesn't really help town since we don't win today by catching them if we don't catch Fire first.

If I were LQ's partner, I'd know the other team was going to kill you and just not submit an NK - then you'd be back where you started all over again and it'd be 1:2:2. Killing me doesn't save you.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by this? How do we end up in a 1:2:2 situation if you're LQ's partner and we've decided to vote you?

[Roden]

I feel like I'm just getting trolled, because we've already explained what town has to do to win and you're acting like you're unaware of what every factions' wincons are.

[Roden]

Wait what? We won!? Holy shit lol. GG, I played awful but still had fun.