Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)
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Schiavetto Goon
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Schiavetto Goon
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(You)
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Schiavetto Goon
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Sorry, meme-free zone. No fun allowed.In post 69, AaronFrost wrote:hello memers-
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I'll allow it.In post 72, seCret hYdra wrote:
can i un-tunnel infinity?In post 71, Schiavetto wrote:
Sorry, meme-free zone. No fun allowed.In post 69, AaronFrost wrote:hello memers
- hYdra-
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Schiavetto Goon
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1312, etc. etc.In post 77, AaronFrost wrote:
damn who are you the fun police?In post 71, Schiavetto wrote:
Sorry, meme-free zone. No fun allowed.In post 69, AaronFrost wrote:hello memers
VOTE: Schiavetto-
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Schiavetto Goon
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Alright cool, back. Apologies for daylong pause.
Right off the bat, it feels like most of you know each other pretty well, which is great! I don't know any of you, though, and culture clash kills games, so I'm gonna throw some things out there before moving any further:
-EST (bEST)
-I'm at work from 7-5 most weekdays, most of which time is spent interfacing directly via zoom. Activity will reflect that.
-It's been a while since I've played on MS specifically, but if you need reference games I can pull from here, Pokemon Showdown (home community), Smogon, or MU (hydra).
-Probably going to keep most of this shallow for the sake of actually getting back into the thread. Contents of this post apply up through #173, which is where I last left off reading before checking out.
A lot of your names blurred but the main things that jumped out to me:
-From what I can tell, Gypyx head is being townread for energy-levels/engagement mostly? What's the point of comparison for that, and what would you call "energetic" for them? Volume, tone, etc.? Doesn't feel like an (immediately) useful indicator to me w/o some frame of reference
-I think I can vibe with the early townleans on Infinity. A lot of intentionality & probing that, even if it comes from scum, mostly just benefits town in the longrun. Let's run with it.
-I'm going to have to backread to decide how much I actually care about Bridgeburner's shitposting but earlier throwaway remarks aside, I'm not terribly impressed by it, and while I don't find it inherently problematic, it does tend to open itself up pretty easily to hollow remarks like this (which I don't love from Aaron). The less memey shit (134, 140-41) feels cozy though. Cautious TR.
-Going back to Aaron, it's just weird imo what he's chosen to respond to. TR from him on Infinity feels like it only came out to soften his vote. 100 is a weird nitpick for me: the natural follow-up there imo is that suppressing nerves and not having those nerves in the first place are two p different things (which is my next issue with it--reliability/unreliability of nervousness as a tell depends a lot on what nervousness looks like imo, which is more probably more pertinent if you're going to start poking at that line of thinking). It's only a handful of posts, and none of it's egregious, but it feels off.
Clicking submit. Reading rest of thread. Rereading thread in entirety. Posting later tonight.-
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Schiavetto Goon
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Schiavetto Goon
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Went back through & this is where I'm at:
Inf
Dat
!Sci
Shydra
BB Bridgers
Peng
!Maf
Imp
Scipio
Isis
Ben
Aaron
[line][/line]
I think Dat's just done a generally good job of giving the game momentum, but mostly I like that there's a concerted effort to keep things concrete. Posts like 68, 168-into-332 & 474 imo do a good job of cutting back at some of the more abstract reads in the thread (w/o necessarily challenging them) and distilling them into something materially useful: v little "PJ makes me feel x", much more "PJ did y which makes me feel x" which is just an overall more productive attitude imo.
I've decided I like Shy here. Partly just feeling comfortable sheeping the Notsci read on the slot (this writeup spells out a lot of the stuff I wanted clarity on earlier re: the meta read, and I'm p satisfied with head consistency + keeping up with the thread as indicators here). Beyond that, though, I like the high posting volume--not really AI in&of itself, but the contents of stuff like 166, 347 & 468 feels extremely generative to me, just doing a very good job of eliciting content which can become AI down the road which, like, I'm into it.
Isis wagon makes sense to me, biggest thing that stood out for me was that 175 was overemoted. At a glance, though, imo Ben's grosser--really don't love their reaction to the wagon on them in 401. Feels extremely loaded to call it a dogpile in the same post that you're asking for reasoning on the votes. The whole "I can't say that scum is on this wagon" feels pretty weak here, too, bc all of it just kind of comes back to the fact that you're not actuallyattemptingto make sense of the votes. No attempt from ben to answer their own question, but plenty of effort invested in (preemptively?) painting the wagon as groundless. Similar vibes from 162--if you want more from Isis, ask for more from Isis.
Biggest beef with Aaron is that I feel like they're posting to appear like they're contributing while also being as inoffensive as possible--a lot of talking without saying anything at all. Gave thoughts on some of their earlier content in my last post, but even beyond that it's all very noncommital--like that guy in your grad seminar who didn't do the reading but still opens his mouth because he wants to be perceived as having something to offer. I'm thinking about things like 367 (which is mostly just him making an observation that others have a read on ben while claiming to have no opinion of their own, despite having literally just interacted with ben in his previous post. Follow up is p lackluster, too--post a votecount, make no attempt at analysis) or 446's whole ~what could it mean~ schtick. Like... so much of their ISO is commenting on the amount of townreads being given out & expressing hesitation there, but then doing very little to actually move the game out of that state.-
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Schiavetto Goon
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If it's any consolation, I wanted to vote them in my earlier catchup post. Couldn't shake the feeling that it was maybe a bad idea to vote without having read the later half of the game though.In post 511, Bridgeburners wrote:Hereby i present Random Assorted Thoughts on Recent
- mena doesn't really like schiavetto's entrance but i'm kinda meh on it. don't love the timing of his aaron read-
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Those still both feel very.... safe is probably the wrong word for what I mean here, but it's what's coming to mind. What am I not seeing?In post 505, implosion wrote:i have general mild good vibes from aaron with like two specific things that i like a little bit more (366 which I mentioned, also a bit on 167/266)-
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It's less "Oh, I trust Notsci's take on gypyx" (though to be clear, I do: early progression w/ your comments on them gels with me p solidly) and more "Oh, I like this slot, and I think what Notsci's saying makes a lot of sense in the context of the good things I'm already seeing with this slot." Thought that was clearer in my previous post. If you're questioning why I tr youIn post 533, notscience wrote:I’m curious why I’m a strong enough townread for them to trust my read particularly when I’ve stated in thread I was wishywashy against scum gypyx in tenet.
Can you elaborate some?
6/10at all, I just think your ISO just generally reads as solve-y. Don't love the self-imposed post limit but we can't all have nice things.-
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In post 534, Isis wrote:Schiavetto seems preeeetty town
lots of analysis that is probably town motivated even if it's wrongIn post 536, Isis wrote:schiavetto,
scipio,
PP
implo
secret hydra
notscience
Datisi
bendover
Infinity
aaronfrost
NM
aaron frost
skitteR
Immediate reaction to this is "Hi, I'm right here in the thread with you and we're playing the same game, please act like it."In post 541, Isis wrote:I vaguely remember skimming a newbie a year ago or something and thinking Schiavetto's play looked soft so that's amplifying the read. I don't think I'm unjustified for townbinning Schiavetto off the post anyway, in a vacuum, though. Some of the runners up had minor scumpings offsetting the things I liked about them which might rig things in Schiavetto's favor for having fewer posts but cest la vie-
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Wait do you mean like, why are they in that order, or why are they in those buckets? The nulls aren't in any meaningful order--I don't really have any strong feelings either way on Scipio & I'm not willing to make an alignment read off of the godfather comment. Feelings re: BB Bridgers are unchanged.In post 539, ben dover123 wrote:Shiavetto, I'd like to question why you put Scipio and bridge where they are currently.
I mean, it's less about whether you "can" or "can't" and more about how you ask what the reason is behind those votes, but nothing about that post reads to me as you being genuinely interested in understanding the three votes. Like, I don't think it's out of the question for town to have such a defensive reaction there (three votes in quick succession like that is cause for alarm, sure), but where that falls apart for me is that you're not casing yourself, you're not casing any of the three voters, and there's like... no attempt to actually discriminate between the three votes or determine possible motivations for them or anything like that. And it's not like any of that is mandatory or whatever, but the absence is felt. Some of the stuff that follows--like the tangent on phaselengths, or the explanation for your hesitation to read any of those votes--is maybe less glaring, but still kind of feels unnatural to me, almost like an afterthought.In post 539, ben dover123 wrote:
Well, I do believe I am allowed to call it a dogpile when my wagon gets 3 consecutive votes in less than 2 hours. Not sure how asking for reasoning on the votes correlates negatively when I also call it a dogpile, votes can still have reasoning but the wagon can still be a dogpile.In post 529, Schiavetto wrote: Feels extremely loaded to call it a dogpile in the same post that you're asking for reasoning on the votes.
I am sorting the votes and trying to make sense of them as you have said because "I asked for the reasoning of the votes". What do you believe "attempting to make sense of the votes" means if asking for the reasoning is not that?Schiavetto wrote: The whole "I can't say that scum is on this wagon" feels pretty weak here, too, bc all of it just kind of comes back to the fact that you're not actuallyattemptingto make sense of the votes.
Which question was this?Schiavetto wrote:No attempt from ben to answer their own question, but plenty of effort invested in (preemptively?) painting the wagon as groundless.
I believe with the context of how my wagon was formed I can assert it as groundless.
That's p much where I was at.-
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No no, that's not what I was getting at, what I mean is likeIn post 568, Isis wrote:I don't really need to interact with people directly as much when I don't feel curious about their alignment.
But I'll try to shift to like not hurt your feelings, doesn't cost me much
If you think there's something off about any of the thoughts given, then you know, spell it out, get into it. Bc as it stands, right now a lot of your response there just comes across as looking to bag an easy townread without necessarily having to engage w/ the slot.-
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as in Fiddler on the Roof--was just reacting to the way you had tradition in caps there. Thanks for the link btw--actually kind of makes me more confident in town!Dat, hydra shenanigans aside.In post 684, Isis wrote:"Fiddler still goes hard" seems like a popular culture reference I'm missing-
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re: Aaron, I actually feel the opposite? Like, I kind of held off on responding to them for a bit just to get some distance on that first impression/avoid getting too tunnelly, but 733's a bad look imo. It just feels like more of the same, taking refuge in the gamestate being "sort of stalled" to--again--get out of actually having to opine on anyone. Like, there are some tonal things that are maybe nice in this most recent batch of posts, but a lot of it still boils down to "I'm not sure how to feel about this"--which would be a lot less egregious if there where any sense of urgency, which I don't get from Aaron at all. Part of me wants to like 565 for the pushback on you (don't think you ever answered this btw) but it's very much just echoing what I said, and in the context of 564-66 it's hard not to take it as buddying. I kind of want to like the back-and-forth with Dat, too, but like.... 604 is just stones/glass houses, etc. & 733 isn't even really an answer?In post 738, implosion wrote:I do kind of just like Aaron's posting recently. 714 just strikes me as genuinely town. And the isis unvote, and the way he talked to datisi in his last post.
i'll try to actually be online when other people are at some point soon hopefully :\
Would love for anyone to change my mind on this.-
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In post 870, implosion wrote: i can't tell if you realize me calling ita sheep votewas a joke or notxk no los dos?
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<3
I mean, I just think it's weird that in the posts directly following your vote on ben, you outright acknowledge that other players have had a strong impact on your reads this game--so why the backpedaling?In post 876, implosion wrote:a vote can be both; this was not.-
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Yeah, that tracksIn post 1038, Scipio1 wrote:I don't like how implosion is trying to push the ben elim even though he's claimed. Bridge's reaction feels like genuine paranoia while implosion's does not.-
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Yeah, gimme a bit to let it stew. Like, I vastly prefer an an AFF/Implo flip here regardless (as opposed to Professed Tracker Benjamin Dover) but that line is really squicking me outIn post 1056, Infinity 324 wrote:
Wanna go back to implo?In post 1053, Schiavetto wrote:1032 feels nitpicky to me, though idk if I'd say nitpicky & scummy. 1051 feels bargainy in a gross way though. Might be nothing, might come back to it.-
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Right so, part of it may just be me coming off the tail of that whole back-and-forth from earlier over the sheep-but-not-actually-sheep vote on ben from earlier. Like, I do think 831 is a decent take on Ben's initial reaction to his wagon, but it's hard for me to put too much stock in that when it'd already seen a fair amt of attention in the thread at that point. Imp addressed some of my concerns abt it but it's still like... Even jokingly, you called it a sheep vote, in a context where it's not outrageous to interpret it as such, and then spent a solid chunk of time talking around the optics of the vote.In post 1056, Infinity 324 wrote:
Wanna go back to implo?In post 1053, Schiavetto wrote:1032 feels nitpicky to me, though idk if I'd say nitpicky & scummy. 1051 feels bargainy in a gross way though. Might be nothing, might come back to it.
The other thing I'm struggling with here is like--I don't think "I'd be willing to vote sechyd" isentirelytoo far out of left field for imp, but the "I will if you will" + the throwaway line at the end of post kind of puts it in this space for me where it lends itself pretty easily to a "haha, just kidding... unless " situation. And it's like... the build-up there seems to run parallel to some of the other heat Shydra's been getting in thread (to be clear: I don't think it's outrageous to read them here, the willful ignorance angle Isis was poking at earlier has some bite to it), but the progression just kind of goes Zero Engagement -> Admittedly Zero Engagement -> Doing the Bare Minimum -> Suddenly Very Prickly in these later interactions--almost like it's just capitalizing off the attn that's already been put on the spot? The 0 to 60 really stands out to me, but to put it on skitters like that feels like it's just making it easier to detach himself from the vote if things go sotuh/recontextualize the push as needed depending on how things pan out. I'm tinfoiling a bit and kind of rambling, but hopefully you get where I'm coming from with it. Also kind of Huh? for me that he gives us 1023 in response to SecHy's handling of Ben's claim while also doing nothing to try and reconcile that w/ 831's take on Ben's reaction to being wagoned
I'm tinfoiling a bit, but it stuck out to me and I kinda wanna keep chewing on it.
Click submit. Ignore new posts. Click submit.-
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW9Cu6GYqxoIn post 1090, Bridgeburners wrote:I feel as if I have reiterated that point as a yes multiple times
Although in fairness what I’ve said to skitt in pt vs what I’ve said here may have blended into one another
But like skitt isn’t that interested in going there today so I’m leaving it alone. I just got optimistic briefly that she’d changed her mind
-QB
I believe in Us.-
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In post 1393, implosion wrote:I'm quite low on energy to do much but etc.
I absolutely used to get butthurt about wrong scumreads on me but I think that part of me has died down a lot over the years, probably mostly from playing social deception games irl where you're actually playing with people you know and etc. It annoyed me in the past particularly if people didn't have any reason but at this point I like, understand the reasons generally and in this game they've generally been reasonable places to come from, they're just incorrect.
I haven't gotten much townvibe from S_S's posting (not mentioning all the weirdness early on) and I feel like in the past I've always found him very naturally town as town. So. Disinclined from dropping the wagon.
I also have noticed that my wagon is kind of strangely not gaining any traction. Which is also kind of weird bc I haven't been a paragon of innovation in the past day or two, I have been pretty lurky. I don't think there's necessarily a deep reason for that though.I think scum might just be scared of making big shifts in the potentially fragile gamestateor like, getting caught partnered with S_S if he is scum. If he is scum they're probably assuming he's not living to endgame.
p-edit: five posts i am not reading-
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In post 1712, petapan wrote:the thing i got out of the last couple pages are that isis and shirou are probably town and nothing that was said tells me much of anything about s_s
may i offer as a third option
VOTE: aaronfrost
good votes, prefer them vastly to the SS wagon-
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In post 1723, PenguinPower wrote:In post 1567, Something_Smart wrote:
PP has felt more useless than he usually does, to the point where I was pretty surprised to see that he had 144 posts.In post 1564, Shirou wrote:I'm interested in your reasons for the vote though.
Very roughly, my impression of his towngame is that he makes snarky comments that are sometimes productive or good points, and as scum he fades into the background more. He's been present, but not really doing much that feels like it will advance the game, aside from voting/campaigning for votes which is pretty easy for scum to do.
right that's all well and good but it's been pages of (tiresome) back and forth over A Variety of Topics of Various Levels of Interest and i'd've preferred to hear from SS why he lands on you here rather than imp/aaronIn post 1724, PenguinPower wrote:s_s is hard to read so I don’t know if he really believes that or not despite being wrong.-
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because as much as i disliked ben, and as much as i've disliked SS's recovery of the slot, i'm still not 100% willing to look past the claim atm (i still don't think i've seen anyone try and reconcile it w/ his initial panic @ being voted), and i think at this point an imp/aaron flip is more generativeIn post 1727, PenguinPower wrote:
Why’s that?In post 1722, Schiavetto wrote:good votes, prefer them vastly to the SS wagon-
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cool, as long as we're doing the snark thingIn post 1729, PenguinPower wrote:Riiight - and quoting his exact words is not hearing from SS why landed on me.
got it.In post 1728, Schiavetto wrote:rather than imp/aaron-
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I shifted off Aaron when it started feeling like a dead end several pages back and went with imp, whom i also read & who looked more viableIn post 1731, PenguinPower wrote:Right - that wasn’t my point. Why if AFF a good vote when you (seemingly) prefer implosion?-
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Not doing this with you.In post 1734, PenguinPower wrote:
yeah - it’s amazing that someone gives a reason and people expect that to be the stated reason.In post 1732, Schiavetto wrote:
cool, as long as we're doing the snark thingIn post 1729, PenguinPower wrote:Riiight - and quoting his exact words is not hearing from SS why landed on me.
got it.In post 1728, Schiavetto wrote:rather than imp/aaron
Amazing.-
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Yeah, I've given reasons on both over the course of the thread but basically my issue with imp is that i see them as playing very hands off in a way that lends itself to a lot of revisionism &w/ aaron the substanceless posts.In post 1741, PenguinPower wrote:
I assume there is a “and found scummy for [reasons]” in there somewhere.In post 1737, Schiavetto wrote:
and went with imp, whom i also read & who looked more viableIn post 1731, PenguinPower wrote:Right - that wasn’t my point. Why if AFF a good vote when you (seemingly) prefer implosion?
Still no idea where the energy in 1729 is coming from, but to be clear: i guess it came across as being snippety, but I very much meant what i said in 1728, i had been hoping to hear from SS themselves. I don't really agree with peta that you'repushablefor scum necessarily, but the vanity wagon against two maybe divisive opposing wagons looked off and it's the sort of thing you hope someone maybe gives a bit of insight into when given the opportunity to-
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Thanks, appreciated - though it does strike me as odd that by now you wouldn't have at least some idea of how those two popped up. Like, where I'm at rn is that you rep'd into a very !!! slot, have been p vocally worried about getting immediately yeeted but then you also have no pulse on the two competing wagons? i'm having a hard time making that make sense for survival-minded would-be outed town prIn post 1805, Something_Smart wrote:
The post that PP quoted is still current. I'm not aware of the reasons implosion and Aaron are being wagoned.In post 1728, Schiavetto wrote:right that's all well and good but it's been pages of (tiresome) back and forth over A Variety of Topics of Various Levels of Interest and i'd've preferred to hear from SS why he lands on you here rather than imp/aaron
still not really sure i buy the PP vote here - &honestly the follow up here makes it harder to accept the "useless" read, if only because like... what context are you working with to arrive @ that conclusion-
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Hope you all had a good sleep.
Red flip is nice. this is still scum.
VOTE: implosion
Cose da fare:
-reread both hydras, both of them keep doing things i like & things that make me go huh? &i need to make a more concerted effort to place them
-iso peta, not super thrilled w/ them since they subbed in
Most confident in t!peng & t!inf right now. I like dat less than i used to; i like isis more than i used to.-
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I've thought a lot about this and i think you should change your pfp to Snubbull. Lmk what you thinkIn post 2501, Not_Mafia wrote:Nice pagetop-
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anyway i still intend to make good on previous to-do list, just like personally need to sort through those pieces to feel more confident in Life After Implo
i think it was infinity who asked if i felt iffy enough about peta to vote there &answer's still "not really" - even before the whole back & forth with bridgerton (which on skim feels maybe townish to me at least) i think my gripe w the slot is there are things that feel like red flags at first glance but that are worth at least trying to reconcile w/ the rest of their content bc i just straight haven't read them as deeply as i'd like to-
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Havent read anything for several pages but god so realIn post 2950, Infinity 324 wrote:Whenever implo makes a post I'm like "wow that's a fakeable post"-
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Good times, good times. anyway:In post 2503, Schiavetto wrote:Cose da fare:
-reread both hydras, both of them keep doing things i like & things that make me go huh? &i need to make a more concerted effort to place them
-iso peta, not super thrilled w/ them since they subbed in
Did some soulsearching here and I think my biggest beef with the slot was some of the sloppiness on entrance--stuff like 1666, 1714 and 1584 felt...not quite misreppy but like, unpleasantly shallow? the main bits were the way they spoke abt inf's progression on imp & esp. the comment about having thought aaron wasn't garnering much attention while speccing. In hindsight I think my concern w/ that was mostly me nitpicking--a lot of those earlier posts are p consistent with a world where town!peta subs in fresh off speccing & is trying to keep momentum up imo. None of it really holds up to a cui bono for scum!peta either imo, considering how yesterday ended (people had already called out AF at various points throughout thread, 1712's "may I present a third option" is weird coming from scum who doesn't really have any reason to position themselves as the person heading up that alternative). I'm also a fan of the progression on Phoebe--I think peta's interactions w the slot late in phase D1 felt solve-y, and the frustration coming through in their D2 interactions w/ Phoebe is well justified from town (considering that Bridgers is literally making things up but we'll get to that)In post 2503, Schiavetto wrote:-iso peta, not super thrilled w/ them since they subbed in
Starting w/ Phoebe, who i think is probably the worse offender here. Earlygame i kind of put them on this shelf bc like... otoh, shitposty to a fault (not even quality shitposts, bar has never been lower) but otoh there were some sprinklings of good that made me want to keep them around. like, i don't think their SR on isis early on was all that bad, and while i've personally lightened on isis (atvl, i can't place her as a partner with anyone on the playerlist), the SK take in 1090 was inch resting--to the point where i honestly kind of wish they'd revisited it, even if it's probably just maf sussing out opposing scum.In post 2503, Schiavetto wrote:Cose da fare:
-reread both hydras, both of them keep doing things i like & things that make me go huh? &i need to make a more concerted effort to place them
I feel like people have remarked on the head dissonance enough that I won't harp on that too much, but going back through Phoebe's D1 in the context of our two flips is Not Great. 441 from Phoeb with the whole "separate tier" thing just straight up feels like someone trying to get out of having to place a read on their partner, and the dialoguing btwn NS and both bridgeheads D1 around why they read e/o the way they do stands a decent chance of being s/s i think.
Looking back, I also think 511 from Bridgers telegraphs Aaron flipping green &is probs TMI. Bridgers (like most of the game tbf) had a lot of professed TRs yday--afaict, Isis was main SR, ben was a concession, and they had scipio town'd before peta subbed in--but it strikes me as sketch to play dumb about it, which is largely what happened yday and by all indications is where the push on peta is coming from. I'd feel maybe better about Bridgers on Peta if not for how much of the case seems to come down to "You were wrong (but nobody else on Aaron was)". I feel like it's p easy for scum!Phoebe to scapegoat peta here while just ignoring the other people reading Aaron's slot. 2750 is less interested in actually making sense of a wagon that you two already said you had trouble with, and more with putting someone on the chopping block. Also fwiw, I don't see how Peta's read on mirrors mine on Imp's.
On to Shy--I think I mostly still like this. Atvl, I think their D1 holds up to scrutiny better than the other hydra. Interactions w/ Shirou rule out a redflip p cleanly imo, but even beyond that I think their posts lean overwhelmingly toward trying to sort folks.
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