Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

[teacher]

lol @ testa. Actually did get pings from Umlaut, and not just for the second syllable. Definitely have to VOTE: menalque however

[teacher]

VOTE: Almost50

Hey marashu, you're mafia or werewolf this time?

With any luck, both of them will fall for the gambler's fallacy and NK me, effectively reducing NKs by 1.

I assume youre just playing along with Gypyx's joke but if not why do you think mafia/werewolf would target the other faction this early?

[teacher]

Please god tell me that this entire PL is not on US time

You know "I ain't no American" (although my time schedule is so messy I can assure you no person on this planet can tell where I'm from based on that alone)

Actually, I did not know this! I thought you were maybe but your time zone does tend to leave me endlessly confused

Time is relative. (I do have some vague recollection that Almost is in an east asian time zone, but that could just be watching the monkeys without tourists in Thighland.)

[teacher]

1 to go~

care to share?

[teacher]

If you don’t mind butting in, look at Mary’s history. I think they rolled scum for the first five games straight. Became memey. (Btw @maru - this is my first game since I ghosted on you. Sorry again for that, and congrats on the win)

[teacher]

FWIW, Mena, I’ve decided to try a different approach to the game, so I would t expect any meta you have for me to hold up here (either way). I wasn’t having fun at the end before I took a break (which could also be the world flipped upside down and extensive toxicity in my last couple games round March April), and this is more of a trial run at coming back with a hopefully different mindset.

Pedit - I return to school next Monday and expect to be fairly limited, both intentionally to approach and IRL commitments. But who knows with an addictive personality.

[teacher]

(I was hacking that out on phone as you asked )

[teacher]

It was a super odd escalation but also seems like you’re now overly harping on it. But I also was lost right around the time whomever said they were (and I tr that post).

[teacher]

Somehow until that quote I missed the detailed case by Menalque on the slot til the long block quote, so that may explain why I felt lost....

[teacher]

Seeing the old "if I were scum you would never catch me because I'm so fucking good" chestnut just makes me want to exile you.

that's not what i said

But it’s what they heard. And it’s a fair summary, I think. I mean you were denigrating their stance based on your experience saying you wouldn’t be that surfacey, no? If not, what were you saying?

[teacher]

Right - you get you’re saying the same thing? Like, dann’s read is lazy because you DO know how to backdown with poise if you needed to? So you can’t be scum because you’d be better as scum?

[teacher]

And I wouldn’t think (and doubt anyone did) that anyone “could pull off” an exile/elimination that early, so I read his post as saying you were being blendy not actually solved.

Speaking of, what do you think now that you know menas readslist was pure memey? And how did you miss that, since Mena explained part and I explained the other prior to your own post about it?

Pedit: the first para addresses where the issue lies - I think you’re over reading dann. There’s no way Mena was going to be exiled this early D1 and everyone knows that so I don’t think he was saying solved.

Pedit2: not reading this preview.

[teacher]

Also, apologies in advance for future errors in labeling day vote result, whatever it is.

[teacher]

blendy?

Trying to blend in: appearing to have/need reads and hunting.

that is LITERALLY what he is implying

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. An implication cannot be literal.

Not really getting into the rest because there’s no value down that hole, only turtles.

[teacher]

what do you think now

You answered the second question but not the first. This way lies value

[teacher]

Right, now why? Is it just what you see as an overreaction? Because honestly it read like you were baiting him a bit - quite Aggro/dismissive/sarcastic, so I got his reaction and thought it was proportional (even asking others to weigh in if not). Am I missing something?

[teacher]

i knew it was meme-y in the first place, i've already said this. please read the game.

jokes are usually funny

See this is what I mean — it actually suggest you didn’t know it was a joke (because you didn’t find it funny - I did) and is insulting in any event.

[teacher]

Again, you respond to 215 - the second part, but not 214 - the first part. I’d rather focus on the reason for your Mena read. If you want me to go down the other places where I think you were antagonizing him, we can do that after.

[teacher]

then vote the person for a hard push of that person calling you scum four times but having literally nothing behind it and even stating that there could be nothing behind that read

Could you try this again. I can’t parse your narrative at all, and want to.

Also, are you now saying your forced readslist comment was a reaction test? If so, what did you hope gain/learn, since you also supposedly knew it was a joke and thus the reaction would be to say that? I just can’t wrap my head around where you are coming from

[teacher]

I think that hikari / mela situation is just a reaction test that spiraled out of control

What specifically was the reaction test - who did it and how? Hiraki three away that explanation as they left, and I didn’t see it/like it.

[teacher]

Could everyone kindly drop the "why would I engage with scum?" bit.

[teacher]

So why am I scum? (yes, I know you dont have to convince me Im scum, Im more just trying to get to the mindset behind your takes)

[teacher]

Could you try this again. I can’t parse your narrative at all, and want to.

there is nothing to rephrase here

I dont follow all of the "person" and who they refer to in how you perceive the events. I will now open it up to anyone at all though -- can someone translate Hiraki's words that are quoted in my 221 in a way that I can understand, if you think you do?

What specifically was the reaction test - who did it and how?

did you read the wiki?

I did. Could you now answer the question, and answer what your take is on Menalque and why?

[teacher]

There's no solid stance at any point. It's all "I sorta see it but maybe not teehee" kind of stuff.

That's fair. I think testarossa got my subtext fairly right. I tend to agree with the angle-shoot reasoning, and found Hiraki scummier as the conversation went on -- I saw him as picking and choosing parts of the conversation to respond to, while not answering the core question in both my and Dann's posts of why he thought Menalque was scum beyond the purported overreation. I kept trying to steer the conversation to a firm Menalque read, and never got one. It was an irritating conversation, but I need to reread my two past games with Hiraki to remember whether they are generally this obstinate as a personality or if it is different here.

I dont have any thoughts at all on your Haven posts -- nothing they posted stuck with me/rubbed me as a read, but with your quote on the winrate stuff I could at least see what you were thinking and liked that, fwiw.

[teacher]

The only ISO that I actually had to reread after catching up was teacher's.

On first glance I liked you interrogating Hiraki about several points. But on second thought I don't really get out of your participation in this where you stand in all of this? Like I get Mena's and Dann's angle in this as they are scumreading Hiraki, but what about you? Your questions are focussed only on Hiraki in this, so I assume you are more or less on the same wavelength with them? (it's what I interpret between the lines)

What did you mean with Mena harping too much over this issue in 185?

Yea, I had a scum tingles on Hiraki but wanted to try to understand him, and was trying to limit the inflection of my own views to avoid the "wont interact with scum/people thinking Im scum" routine while getting my questions answered. I found my self hard vibing with Dann when he joined the interchange, so I agree with your interpretation.

As for Mena harping a lot on it, 135 159 and 183 struck me as a lot of appeals to outside adjudicators. I liked the first one, but by the last it seemed to get kinda....much/overly directing attention?

[teacher]

The only ISO that I actually had to reread after catching up was teacher's.

On first glance I liked you interrogating Hiraki about several points. But on second thought I don't really get out of your participation in this where you stand in all of this? Like I get Mena's and Dann's angle in this as they are scumreading Hiraki, but what about you? Your questions are focussed only on Hiraki in this, so I assume you are more or less on the same wavelength with them? (it's what I interpret between the lines)

What did you mean with Mena harping too much over this issue in 185?

Yea, I had a scum tingles on Hiraki but wanted to try to understand him, and was trying to limit the inflection of my own views to avoid the "wont interact with scum/people thinking Im scum" routine while getting my questions answered. I found my self hard vibing with Dann when he joined the interchange, so I agree with your interpretation.

As for Mena harping a lot on it, 135 159 and 183 struck me as a lot of appeals to outside adjudicators. I liked the first one, but by the last it seemed to get kinda....much/overly directing attention?

[teacher]

Bets are open about how many appeals to the crowd we'll get from Menalque before she flips scum

You can still get your money in teach!

Oddly, when I missed Mena's meta-angle case on Hiraki, my thought was that the overescalation was scum theater between the two of them. But I dont think he makes that detailed case on a partner. Nor do I think gives me a hard town read rn as scum. My playstyle (at least historically) often led to day 2/3 suspicions forming a consensus on me as null-scum, and thus a simple push to save for later/leaver yourself open to. The post as a whole didnt feel planned/pockety, so for today at least Im not suspicious of him (I have too much respect for his scum game to take a harder stance than that.)

[teacher]

There's no solid stance at any point. It's all "I sorta see it but maybe not teehee" kind of stuff.

I probably addressed this in the Testa post, but I think the subtext was pretty plain (enough for Testa to see) that I had issues/questions with Hiraki and wanted either to resolve them or solidify the read. I fully concede the lack of a solid explicit stance -- that was intentional so that i could have the conversation and get a response -- but think it was implied. Do you disagree?

[teacher]

I dont follow all of the "person" and who they refer to in how you perceive the events

you don't know who i'm talking about after i've talked about them for 9+ pages because of you two at this point?

Again, I dont. Call me stupid, call me scum, whatever, but would you try to explain it to me one more time?

I kept trying to steer the conversation to a firm Menalque read, and never got one.

wow

Youre right, that was poorly worded. I was looking for reasons (hence the repeated why questions), not a read. I did get a read (scum). Now you are saying IC (town). Why the former? Why the shift? Why the latter?

[teacher]

(I have too much respect for his scum game to take a harder stance than that.)

OOF
My kingdom for a dayvig

Ask Dunn how vigging me works out.

[teacher]

I sincerely was not trying to threaten you, and apologize for anything that appeared that way.

And what does an innocent child label, but not role, mean? (this is a genuine question - I think maybe someone who is L-1/surfacey, but havent encountered it before outside the role).

[teacher]

I did. Could you now answer the question, and answer what your take is on Menalque and why?

innocent child

@dram: OK, I can see where this would just be pure mocking me for asking the question(s) (what was the reaction test and/or why do you read menalque as scum). Thanks for pointing out that angle, which I had not seen. Now why do you think Hiraki is repeatedly refusing to answer the "basis for read on Menalque" question from multiple slots (me, Dann, etc.)? Is he really so arrogant that he thinks hes found three scum on page 12?

[teacher]

OK, Hiraki, I am splitting this into multiple threads for coherence. Believe me, I more than get the frustration, because it seems like we have been talking past each other a bit, and Im frustrated too.

This first thread is about 220, which Im still trying to understand. You say "dude it's menalque, how is this hard?" But the issue is that there are two actors in the part Im trying to understand.

Here is what you wrote:

vote

the person

for a hard push of

that person

calling

you

scum four times but having literally nothing behind it and even stating that there could be nothing behind that read

As suggested by the italics/bolds/colors, there is are two people in this story, and I am not sure who is doing what.

Should I understand you to mean: Menalque votes Hiraki for a hard push of Hiraki calling Menalque scum four times but having literally nothing behind it and even stating.....? If so, isnt the nothing behind that read wrong (at least in your mind, becuase you say you have repeatedly explained the Menalque read?

Or should I understand you to mean: Hiraki votes Menalque for a hard push of Menalque calling Hiraki scum but having literally nothing behind it and even stating.....? If so, didnt Menalque's angle shooty case explain the something behind that read?

[teacher]

we've gone over the scum part multiple times

This is the second thread. As best I can tell, "the scum part" is crystallized in your 209. IS there anything else at all? Put another way, see my 214. My question is whether I am missing anything in your scumread of Menalque.

[teacher]

I’m now on kid duty for a bit, but yes. I tried to explain this in and around my answer to Testa, but my skim read solidified or evolve similar to yours.

[teacher]

It’s been a minute for that one. Glad we keep the literal geriatrics around for the reminders. Good memories.

[teacher]

I did get a read (scum).

Here comes my first serious attempt to get into the game (as in "have a real presence"). It's not much, but it's a start: Double you Etch Why?

Here I was saying that Hiraki did give me a read - that Menalque was scum. As for the Etch why of that read, Godspeed

[teacher]

I’m playing by my new fire pit with a cigar for the evening. I want to get out of my current conversational tunnel. Can anyone offer me a take on umlaut, gypyx or testa?

[teacher]

I’m not asking for a sheep. I have my own take, at least on umlaut, whom I find town-y (ie a lean rather than a read). I just wanted to try to climb out of a tunnel I get myself sliding into and assess the slots that have participated (gypyx barely made the cut, Dunn did not) but haven’t been part of the discussion. Why no answer?

[teacher]

Dann do you have any alts? Your style and mindset are reminding me of loopdan/TTTT a bit.

[teacher]

Ugh ... I really should have thought of skit/xtomx that game but was letting RC’s confidence steer me too much. Pleasure either way.

And dram, given my general presence over the course of the day, I think you’d be hard pressed to say I’m avoiding the spotlight.

[teacher]

Town:
The rest

Why are Crush/Dunn town? Can we stop trolling around yet?

[teacher]

Honestly I kinda like Dramonic. They are at least producing content/providing reasoning behind reads (hey, Hiraki, any time you want to hit up 295 that would be grand). While I disagree with their takes, I can see the reasoning and I like the different perspective. I also dont really feel like they're misrepping.

[teacher]

....snip....

You kind of answered what I would have asked to the lower paragraph in 277. I am not really getting it though, unless I am somehow misinterpreting something here. Does it look weird for Mena to appeal to the crowd when he gets frustrated in a conversation with someone scumreading him? (and his own scumread) What made it look like scum theatre? I get that you missed the detailed case of him, which made you change your mind later, but I am not really sure how you reached the conclusion, because I would think if you think an interaction looks like SvS you would be aware of each case.

It does not look weird once. It does look weird to do it three separate times, to three separate groups, in the space of 30 points. It seemed to blow it up into a bigger deal than it was. And thats what I meant by considering the potential for scum theater -- it has less to do with the cases that with the trajectory of the tone. It seemed to me that the escalation was not normal, and hence could be intentionally faked. TO BE CLEAR, I dont think this is the case after having seen the case, but I wanted to answer your question.

[teacher]

I am aware of the multiball dynamics, however you either townlean on Dann for his stretchy page 2 reach or not, I don't see how the existence of a second scum team plays into this.
What makes you leaning town on Umlaut?

1. Multiball dynamics matter because scum do want to scumhunt, just the other team. (I infer the townlean on Dann was for starting substantive discussion)
2. Not one thing in particular. Their posts have just jived with me -- I liked the response to dram on "specific things," the timing on the vote of Hiraki, and just gestalt, generally.

[teacher]

That's a lot of text to say "everyone is null"

Good take. But in her one finished game, Testa similarly declined to have reads til about two days in, with the same maybe-this, maybe-that routine. Thats where we are, so, Testa, whatchu got?

[teacher]

Honestly I kinda like Dramonic. They are at least producing content/providing reasoning behind reads (hey, Hiraki, any time you want to hit up 295 that would be grand). While I disagree with their takes, I can see the reasoning and I like the different perspective. I also dont really feel like they're misrepping.

Okay, what about the specific thing I just talked about? Like my reason for why I think hiraki is scum has been fairly clearly laid out and has nothing to do with whether I like their style much or not

Why do you think dram was implying that that was my reason for voting there?

Im not certain he was. It was a throwaway line at the end of a post with a different topic. Regardless, its obvious that Dram doesnt agree with/think much of your Hiraki case, so Im not surprised that he would belittle it. I just dont see it as misrepping, and certainly not intentionally so, rather than stating his own view of it.

[teacher]

Was testa scum or town in that game?

town.

[teacher]

Was testa scum or town in that game?

town.

But (and I didnt notice this) a town PR, so may have been wanting to stay kinda under radar too. (my own maybe-this )

[teacher]

Also can anyone do the math on how many misguillos we get given the extra scum and the 2 NKs?

I think worst-case 1:

• 9:2:2 (free misguillo and double town kill)
  
• 6:2:2, misguillo and double town kill leads to loss —>
  
• 3:2:2, Guillo and double town kill ->scum victory at 2:1:1

[teacher]

@dram, you want to sell me a different take on Hiraki? You seem to be the only one townreading, so I figure you got something

[teacher]

Omgus much?

Also, should be kinda obvs, but universal townreads are strong nk candidates. That’s why he wants to sit on it.

[teacher]

Serious question, since I have been away for a couple years: What's with the new lingo of exile and gylo or whatever that was. Like I understand what people mean, but did we decide that lynch was no longer pc?

About a month ago - click into any of the game sections and see the new rule on top. Also why the logo went by the boards. As for the thing you owe, it is to help me find town in Hiraki

[teacher]

teach are you standing by your rvs vote?

No UNVOTE:

I think I’d kind of like this. VOTE: dunn

[teacher]

im confused what you see differently then

I think I'm actually on the same page with how that Mena post is being interpreted now

I still want teacher to explain his earlier thing though

Not sure what you were looking for - call it out?

[teacher]

im confused what you see differently then

I think I'm actually on the same page with how that Mena post is being interpreted now

I still want teacher to explain his earlier thing though

Not sure what you were looking for - call it out?

what "detailed meta case" did Menalque have on Hiraki?

Mena called his case meta before he detailed it. I suppose he meant meta in terms of outside-of-game influence. It was the angleshoot bit. I dont see that coming on a partner, ever.

[teacher]

Yeah Dunn imma need a little more from you

Sure, I plan on talking more as the game continues to exist

It be hard not to.

[teacher]

His posts feel pretty dispassionate, like he's trying to be a mediator to appear engaged. By this I mean he's not really taking any hard stances unless called on. 221 is where I started getting scum vibes. 380 doesn't come from a town mindset, in my opinion,

Let's chat.

1. What made the game unfun was toxicity in past games, and Im naturally conflict resistant (hence the job), so I get the mediator thing. But why is that anti-town?

2. Presuming your answer is that Im not really taking any hard stances, Id say I have more pronounced reads than like 1/2 the PL. Ive expressed views on Mena, Hiraki, Umlaut, Dram, DannFlor, and Dunn -- the last four without being expressly called to do so. Do you disagree? For what its worth, Im also a townlean on Testa and a null-scum on you, but having trouble sorting out your low-content from VCA and otherwise.

3. Why doesnt 380 come from a town mindset? That comment makes like no sense to me.

[teacher]

I dont have a strong view, just concerns and vague memory. When I was scum buddy with him in one of my last games, I remember him posting in PT>thread. His thread presence hasnt been high. I also seemed like an odd push for a mediator stance in the discussion with Hiraki, with that was both (a) explained at the time he made the post and (b) equally applicable to Dann, but he hasnt really mentioned that name. I dont like his "mediator"/blendy take when I think Ive taken way more solid stances than him. Also the push has remained fairly consistent all day, so seems to be a way to avoid interacting with the greater thread/taking more stances.

Why do you think town.

[teacher]

2. Not one thing in particular. Their posts have just jived with me -- I liked the response to dram on "specific things," the timing on the vote of Hiraki, and just gestalt, generally.

As reasons for a townlean on Umlaut. The fudging on TripleHaven since then kinda lessens it a bit. My own take on Triple is to take the 66% based on similarity of playstyle, but I do wnant th two of you to get together somewhat on that.

[teacher]

Do you disagree? He was asked how he would play it, and the strat seems reasonable. If you disagree, why? If you dont, why shade it?

[teacher]

Menalque, we get your take and it’s kind of occupying a lot of space at this point (and I’m saying this even though I agree). Personally I think moving a bit to get more out of D1 would be more effective. Dunn and Gypyx effectively aren’t here, and I’d be interested in your analysis on gamma leading to the buddy thought. I’m not sure there’s more to be gained by resigning the Hiraki well with nine days on deadline.

[teacher]

@maru, re:380

I wasn’t pinning or calling testa a pr, but I now get your take. I said they were similarly hesitant to have reads in their one town game (side note one =/ always). But with 380, all I meant to say was that even that thin meta is less reliable because they weren’t vt. It was not intended at all to be Pr spec.

[teacher]

Because Dunn isnt v/la on either the votecounts or control panel? Thats Dann. But why did you think it was Dunn/why are you sensitive to his count?

[teacher]

Also Gypyx, can you share reads on 4 slots -- any 4, just get into the game with actual commentary pls and thanx

[teacher]

@dranonic: you know what, you’re actually right.

Bell, but what do you think about 459, because that sold me that haven isnt the best lynch for today.

[teacher]

And yoink!

[teacher]

Oh god the third person narrated ketchup is going to kill me if it extends all 30 pages.

[teacher]

@teacher: i’ll Read more closely, I don’t disagree with the crux of play style thoughts it but in last game haven had both pro-town/pro social posting along with fluff because he was active enough to do both.
@Dunnstral, you are cute!

I haven’t even gone to the source, but can you both call out a specific post you think is different there that is missing here, and then discuss with A50/menalque?

[teacher]

Yoink again ?

[teacher]

@jake: because he’s not playing, and he has seen me play exactly this way as town. I don’t think it’s where I’ll end the day, but it seemed more useful then either gypyx or Hiraki and I didn’t like the wagon on your slot.

[teacher]

Townlean, fairly heavily but open to reevaluation based on flips because Im not confident in reading you. And you had anothe rquestion for me that I saw in my skim. I thought it would be more useful to pressure other slots than just jump on Hiraki. If Dunn refuses to play, I might even push that/Gypyx for Day 1 over Hiraki.

[teacher]

Okay, so am I right in thinking you’re at like scumlean or stronger on hiraki?

Stronger, but with a bit of wanting to reread Gamma's take and then go over the few times Ive played with them for personality.

[teacher]

Give the man his prize, Vanna.

[teacher]

I’m possibly floored that just as soon as Dunn’s wagon got serious, he beetlejuiced an omgus return to the thread, and Dann nonetheless redirected it. The flow on a quick read through did not feel natural tbh. But I haven’t checked time stamps.

[teacher]

I did just get back from getting six stitches (rugby) and at a bit coasting in Vicodin, so I can’t tell if my gut/logical arc sense is working - hence the possibly. Something I want to reread, so putting it in my iso.

[teacher]

Always around D3 - it helps to go back to past thoughts with the benefit of later evolution and see how that mwah.

[teacher]

They mesh***

[teacher]

I feel like Hiraki been town on you for a while?

[teacher]

/has been pushing dram on it since roughly 500 or so? (Done on phone without checking but that’s my memory)

[teacher]

Bell is your alt outed? (I think you said do you know who I am at some point, apologies if fuzzy memories misled me)

[teacher]

@mena - I think I’m still willing to end the day there, but I don’t think it’s far and away my preferred exile anymore. Again, I’d rather get gypyx and/or Dunn into the game and kick the tires generally a bit more. Was surprised to see A50 in your compromise list?

[teacher]

Lol at cross posting. I agree 8 days would be enough if this were a 9 player game, but I’m not crazy about rushing past the slots choosing to stay sidelined.

[teacher]

Talk to me about Dann? Like I vibes hard on Hiraki a while back and have liked all the posts, but feel like there is a chance both pole stars in the game (you/Hiraki) are town, and scum is just lightly positioning around them. Maybe I’ve gotten to the point in the day where paranoi starts to eat at a good thing - in fact I think that is likely given how much I liked Dann before. Just found the sudden burst of posting tonight off putting in a way I haven’t yet been able to consciously verbalize.

[teacher]

also re: Jake

I just noticed he isn't voting a counter wagon despite being the top wagon himself. maybe his strategy is just to look town and hope the pressure evaporates, but the lack of any counter push at all from him is curious

I agree with this. This is why I pressured him on picking someone to focus on rather than saying "someone on my wagon is BAD!" He was unable to do that.

Wouldn’t a strong counter be more survivalist ic at this point? I’m not sure what point the two of you are making — sure it’s interesting, but how are you taking that?

[teacher]

Yoink

[teacher]

@teacher:
Considering you were nullscum on Marashu, what do you make of their recent posting? Particularly about his reflection of his arguments concerning his read on you?

I am done, sorry for the multiposts.

I actually think I missed the reflection. I saw the change in vote, but I don’t remember any reflection/reasons for a changed read. Call it out?

[teacher]

Not yet from me mate. Probs will put it up in a couple days. Sorry if I’m being a stuck in the mud.

[teacher]

and scum is just lightly positioning around them.

wonder whom

your broader thoughts would actually be welcome, rather than this empty aside.

also re: Jake

I just noticed he isn't voting a counter wagon despite being the top wagon himself. maybe his strategy is just to look town and hope the pressure evaporates, but the lack of any counter push at all from him is curious

I agree with this. This is why I pressured him on picking someone to focus on rather than saying "someone on my wagon is BAD!" He was unable to do that.

Wouldn’t a strong counter be more survivalist ic at this point? I’m not sure what point the two of you are making — sure it’s interesting, but how are you taking that?

Not following.

me implying that Jakes lack of a push/joining the larger counterwagon could be viewed as Townie. I’m pretty content that I’m not voting that slot today.

[teacher]

Dram who are your four scum at this point?

[teacher]

There’s also angleshooty reasons I’m disinclined to vote the Jake slot today. That’s all I can or will say on the matter to try to abide the rules.

Do you have any scumreads other than menalque? And has the Menalque read changed from the overreaction (which I think I finally understand, on the 82nd read )

[teacher]

Menalque I don’t think I’ve seen you be this petulant before? Waaaa, I can’t get my preferred lynch through so I’m not going to play seriously? Get over yourself.

[teacher]

(That was harsher than I wanted, I apologize. I appreciated that you were willing to work with me a bit on Dunn and what you’ve done so far. But I think the false urgency to eliminate halfway through the phase, with a replacement for an empty slot pending, and then throwing a tantrum when you don’t get it is ... not ideal.

[teacher]

If you vote those slots regardless of Hirakis flip, why aren’t you voting them now? Do you really think the HAVEN slot is likely to be scum, after defending her so much? You’re giving up on the day in a way that’s gross.

[teacher]

(To be clear, not scummy, just ???? I don’t get the posture)

[teacher]

VOTE: marashu

Biggest shift in reads - Hiraki moves up since I finally understood what they were saying, and dram down.

Would compromise in (gamma, gypyx, dunn) happily

[teacher]

Biggest shift in reads - Hiraki moves up since I finally understood what they were saying, and dram down.

Could you elaborate on this? To my understanding; dram was defending Hiraki, so why does he move down when Hiraki moved up?

The rough and ready because I’m in meetings: I now think, as I started to hypothesize earlier, that the piles of the discussion are town. But as a result, town is divided, to scums advantage. Who helped foster this division, while also driving the counter/main wagon on another slot I townlean? Dram. It’s not so much individual play as a gamestate/room effect read.

[teacher]

Ebwop: Poles of discussion (not piles)

And not blind. I actually think Maru is definitely within his scum register (though I’m not sure he has a town register)

[teacher]

I'm a big boy

A. Lynch all liars.
B. She said that.
C. Your mothers been telling you stories about me again - Braveheart.

So many good options.

[teacher]

Want to talk marashu, for real?

[teacher]

Fair nuff.

[teacher]

Scum to town I think. And he is saying that penguin is scummier than you divided by gamma. I’m roughly here, so don’t mind the wagons even if I’m not inclined to

Teach
Mena Dann Hiraki
Bell Gamma Testa
Dram Jake A50
PP* Dunn Marashu

Pedit - see the intro was covered like 4 times but not deleting.

[teacher]

Bell nobody has interest in your vanity wagon. Do useful things w your vote.

[teacher]

intent

[teacher]

Going to hammer in about 5 hrs/noon NY time fwiw.

[teacher]

why not mara?

I backed myself off there a bit, but am kinda giving up the ghost on the day as well.

[teacher]

Jake, why so confident on the gypyx/Penguin slot?

[teacher]

I do prefer him - my vote is there. Just found that aspect of the readslist odd.

[teacher]

so then why you gonna hammer Jake when it's pretty viable we can do mara today?

It wasn’t when you were in lol mode and Bell hopped on that. I don’t exactly see Dunn joining a wagon I’m pushing and dram calling it darts. I was just willing to take a slot I see as not advancing the game out and move on to the next day with info.

[teacher]

why not mara?

I backed myself off there a bit, but am kinda giving up the ghost on the day as well.

In other words, this, especially the last part.

I didn’t find the push on me to be genuine and I remembered him pushing off-pace wagons in our scum game together. He also has a habit as scum of accusing others of doing what he is doing (e.g., his accusation that I haven’t taken stances). But then I skimmed his other scum games and didn’t see him making off-pace pushes as a consistent theme, so that lessened it a bit.

But mostly was willing to give up the day.

[teacher]

Bell what are your reads?

[teacher]

Mara, several slots have asked you to follow up on why you shifted away from me. Now you appear to be shifting back a bit, though recognizing its not happening. Can you react/reflect on our interchange?

[teacher]

So youre basing "there's a fair chance teacher is scum" on.....what, exactly?

[teacher]

I gave intent on him, so that theory still holds I believe.

[teacher]

I gave intent on him, so that theory still holds I believe.

"Dr. Mafia, what exactly does giving intent hold here?"

Read the post above mine.

[teacher]

VOTE: a50

[teacher]

^ Nah, unrelated. Can't comment.

Look at the ban thread.

[teacher]

YAY! I may be able to read that slot. Welcome RCE.

[teacher]

I don’t want to skew you.

[teacher]

Talk to me RCE.

[teacher]

You want me to give my guess?

[teacher]

Crush is being replaced for inactivity.

Gamma Emerald has been prodded.

Gamma Emerald has been prodded.

Crush has been prodded.

And like no attention on the slot.

[teacher]

Feels like a good percentage of this game is very content with this game state.

We're kinda in limbo rn...unless we want to go ahead and push through the A50 elim.

^ Pretty much. I don't think this is a game state thing since the only way to move my reads forward is to reread the thread again and I will die before that happens day 1.

I mean, I dont disagree with the gamestate/replacement comment, but I dont agree with it either. I guess I kinda feel like scum is content with where things are, and so are letting them sit. Im discontented with where things are, but just dont have that much will to do anything about it with all the subbing out. I joined this game to play with mena and billy tbh. I really like many of the players here, including some recent replacements, but just dont have WIM right now, and am about to start the crazy week of back-to-school.

[teacher]

Oh shoot. A50 is town.

UNVOTE:

Hi, chemist.

Why A50 town?

[teacher]

Feels like a good percentage of this game is very content with this game state.

We're kinda in limbo rn...unless we want to go ahead and push through the A50 elim.

^ Pretty much. I don't think this is a game state thing since the only way to move my reads forward is to reread the thread again and I will die before that happens day 1.

I mean,

I dont disagree with the gamestate/replacement comment, but I dont agree with it either.

I guess I kinda feel like scum is content with where things are, and so are letting them sit. Im discontented with where things are, but just dont have that much will to do anything about it with all the subbing out. I joined this game to play with mena and billy tbh. I really like many of the players here, including some recent replacements, but just dont have WIM right now, and am about to start the crazy week of back-to-school.

So - you have a reason for not caring, but everyone else not caring is because scum is content with gamestate and not because there is actually a reason they may not be caring. Hmmm....ok.

I mean, thats not what I said? I was trying to express that it could be both -- nobody in particular is scuzzy, and everyone may have reasons, but I think for at least some of the board those reasons include contentment with the gamestate. Bottom line, this lull does kind of move me back to being pretty anti-the default lynch at this point is what Im trying to express.

[teacher]

Thing is, Im not really in love with any push RN either, certainly not enough to make one. Its either AFKs or Hiraki/Dramonic, and I keep flipping on which of those I think is the baddy (I dont think they have the same alignment.) I would need to really read through again, and I just dont want to. I want some compelling reason to go somewhere, but I dont have one to offer and am not willing to make one.

[teacher]

Interesting, why?

[teacher]

What they said. I actually went back to confirm what slot he replaced into, and I dont see Mena as scum here.

PEdit - what Dann and Bell said - I dont know what the chemist thing is, and I dont see the slot as bad (why do you?)

[teacher]

Dramonic is bordering on my top tier of town reads. I'll case why after I drink some caffeine.

I very much look forward to this. For me, their read is tied to both Hiraki and Jake's, so selling me this would be awesome.

[teacher]

also

[teacher]

bad penguin

[teacher]

I did one not that long ago. Don’t think it’s changed. Good to know you’ve iso Ed me before your vote. Remember the last time you repped in w me?

[teacher]

Let’s see, you named 3 other players in a game where 1/3 are scum. So yea, I’d agree, and only a fracking idiot wouldn’t. What actual reasoning do you want to give?

[teacher]

And why are you townreading Dunn? I mean, misreading someone is one thing, but pretending to be able to read that slot based on its content

[teacher]

Teach
Mena Dann Hiraki
Bell Gamma Testa
Dram Jake A50
PP* Dunn Marashu

Well I was mostly interested in why you weren't sorting or pushing there.

Why are you agreeing with me if all 4 of the slots I mentioned are either you or your strongest townreads? (I have now iso'd you in a minor capacity)

A. I have pushed Dunn.
B. I don’t townread Dun.
C. I have flopped quite a bit on Hiraki.
D. Simple maths.

[teacher]

And why are you townreading Dunn? I mean, misreading someone is one thing, but pretending to be able to read that slot based on its content

I don't read dunnstral at all actually. But I do like where his head is at.

Is this just a pun or are you having a mental crossover between Dunn and Dann. It seems like your last two posts make it seem like the latter? I mean:

maybe Dunn but I'm townreading him currently.

[teacher]

Yea, I think the typo skewed my response to your question - I think me-Hiraki-Mena slot- Dann is far less likely than rand to have a scum, as my readslist said, but I’m a bit flippy on Hiraki.

Damn Im townreading too.

[teacher]

I dunno, the constant counterwagons to Jake feel pretty disruptive

What counterwagon has gained serious/sustained traction?

[teacher]

I feel like none really have, and I think that’s kind of important?

The first was Dunn. 1Just as it got serious - like in the exact same time period as the fourth vote - Someone deflected away and broke its momentum.

Then came Maru. I don’t think this ever really rose to a potential/momentum wagon, even if it did have 4 votes for brief period (less than 24hrs). Ditto A50.

I think it’s kinda telling that these slots were also pushed as counters by different people, including me who gave intent on Jake. I guess I just don’t see the all-day wagon without a serious or sustained counter as being scum. I freely admit that I don’t see Jake as adding much and so am still willing to hammer it to move the game along, but I’m nonplussed after the lack of evolution/sorting I’m seeing generally.

[teacher]

VOTE: jake

Drama probably right - the slot is going to have to be resolved, and since tomorrow is theoretically melo, I’d rather not carry it forward.

[teacher]

Question, would it be more beneficial to us to wait for the other replacement and

having them all catch up

before eliminating someone or not?

Just like Chemist caught up? or RCE? Right now I think apathy is deepening and deepening, and just putting the game on ice will do nothing but further drain town's desire to play.

@Teacher, when I think about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to say and vote Jake at your level of skill for the stated reason. Try explaining your reasoning again. Maybe I'm just dumb though.

OK, lets try this: I dont have an affirmative townread on the slot. Rather, I bought the case that Haven was a useless town, and repped out after being called such. Her replacement, Jake, has also been pretty useless -- a weird character affectation, but no real contribution to reasoning/hunting/sorting/interacting. So Im left with thinking its a pretty useless slot that has had a lot of positioning around it all day. (I also didnt like the wagon composition)

If it flips scum, its pretty indiciative that at least one scum (and likely more) was probably directing/taking part in the counterwagons, which are in turn more likely town. Its also a GREAT sign that my reads have been f-ed up and need deep reevaluation.

IF it flips town, its pretty indicative that my reads are pretty solid, and to continue on my same course. But -- and here is the key thing -- it gets rid of a slot that I think will NOT help town win the game -- its a VT claim that is not helping my progression, and that I would be liable to mislynch later due to the weird positioning of this day.

Does that make better sense at all?

[teacher]

The "if it flips town" paragraph is expressing the need to resolve the slot in my earlier post, or Dram's "his continued existence benefits both scumteam EVEN if he somehow flips town" before that.

[teacher]

I noted you didnt actually affirmatively claim VT. But tbh, that kind of WIFOM gets you nowhere from me. If you dont claim a PR, you dont get treated like a PR.

[teacher]

kindly prod Dunn

I’m sure he’ll have excellent insight to add.

[teacher]

Clever. Also liked your vote, and would gladly join that wagon if it got up to fighting strength, but I don’t have the energy to push it there.

[teacher]

Dunn, Gamma slot, Jake, a50=RCE

[teacher]

Prob actually RCE before A50 because I’m willing to give the multiple expressed trs of the monkey some deference for their greater experience.

[teacher]

Where’s Maru and gamma slot?

Pedit: Maru only then.

[teacher]

If jakes the bottom of your list, what are you doing on a50? Just allowing replacements time and space?

[teacher]

Happy cake day Dann!

And yes Bell night will be frozen, but we will have info for rereads/not engage in circular banter.

RCE, That’s a great way to position for a townflip and be able to push multiple slots at melo tomorrow, we’ll done!

[teacher]

No, its becuae the Gypyx slot had a pure aura.

[teacher]

And note that Jake conveniently forgot the chemist/Menalque slot as well.

[teacher]

VC 1.24

Jake The Wolfie (6) - dramonic, Hiraki, Marashu, Almost50, teacher, Dannflor [

E-1

]

teacher (2) - Dunnstral, RCEnigma
Almost50 (1) - Bell
dramonic (1) - Gamma Emerald
Hiraki (1) - Jake The Wolfie
Dunnstral (1) - PenguinPower

Not voting: Chemist1422

With 13 alive it takes 7 to exile.

Day 1 deadline is currently frozen at 4 days, 0 hours, 0 minutes until replacements are found.

Off-wagon we have:

• Dunn - empty slot, plus given intent (not counting)
  
• Bell - a Townlean, but who has voted there in the past and indicated an openness to return (not counting)
  
• Gamma slot -- a dead slot (not counting)
  
• Jake himself (not counting)

Apologies to keep flipping myself, but Im not comfortable with what is basically a 9-3 consensus lynch, with only PP, Chemist, and RCE counting as truly offwagon. For the record, despite my strong TR of chemist's slot, I could see them paired with the Jake slot. But the strong TR there, and good TR of PP since replacement, gives their position some weight as well.

UNVOTE:

[teacher]

VOTE: Dunn

[teacher]

Im aware

[teacher]

The feelings on both counts are mutual.

[teacher]

1. PP had an asterisk in my readslist because he was a new replacement into the slot at the time. I’ve jived with a lot of what he’s done since entry - I think he is contributing well even if not catching up on the old stuff. I don’t have a specici. Call out so much as a gestalt mindset thing.

2. The whole point of the flipping is that I came back to Jake town, ya? This point doesn’t really hold water if you think about it.

[teacher]

yea, I realized after I typed that it was 8-3 rather than 9-3. And I teach history

[teacher]

??
Start with the current wagon (5)

• Add me (intent before and 12 hour vote now) - 6
  
• Bell (vote before, and intention to return 'tomorrow ish' stated yesterday) - 7
  
• Dunn (intent given, and desire to lynch through VT claim) - 8

How do you get 6 from that?

[teacher]

Teach
Bell Chemist Dann
PP Dram Hiraki
Marashu A50 Jake
RCE Gamma Dunn

@RCE, FWIW, heres a complete shotgun readslist, since your comment about updating since PP's entry was def fair.

[teacher]

??
Start with the current wagon (5)

• Add me (intent before and 12 hour vote now) - 6
  
• Bell (vote before, and intention to return 'tomorrow ish' stated yesterday) - 7
  
• Dunn (intent given, and desire to lynch through VT claim) - 8

How do you get 6 from that?

...You literally said bell and Dunn didnt count

As in not counting

them as being off wagon

. Context matters.

[teacher]

I said “let’s look who is

off wagon

” and then said four don’t really count. So in context, they don’t count as being

off wagon

because they’re either entirely open to it or dead slots. It’s 8-3 any way you cut it, and that’s not good odds for hitting scum.

[teacher]

Let’s try another way, why are you not concerned about the lack of a sustained cw/the inertia of the last 4ish days?

[teacher]

Agree with teach’s explanation and minus points to dramonic for being....something. I’ll think of the word later.

Hiraki has a dictionary if you want to borrow it

[teacher]

Penguin, could you elaborate on what the chemist thing is?

Chemist, could you elaborate on when we should see it? (evidently not Saturday - 1603)

[teacher]

Why say this rather than pointing out the people who are actually in this category?

This was mostly at Teacher and he knows this.

True, but the thing is (and what made it have scum tingles) is that -- by not naming names -- the post also applied just as much to Dann and Bell's positioning the same day and left you in a good position to push whatever way the wind was blowing and claim white knight cred/resisting the lynch.

[teacher]

iirc last time I tried this Bell wouldn't vote there and then anyone else off the Jake wagon only wanted to push t

Kindly prod Marashu

[teacher]

Which brings up a new question to me, or two actually: Why are all the same people voting me, anf whrn did you start voting me?"

Hmmm, I wonder if this could be discovered by looking at a vote count, doing an ISO, and using control-f.
Maybe if you did that, you could find out the answer and present an actual argument on which is opportunistic.
Or, you know, otherwise take a stance in the game.

[teacher]

Still not taking a stance. (and a different question then when, or "whrn").

[teacher]

I’m not voting you. You could look up the information just as easily as me. Put those thumbs to use as it were.

[teacher]

Dann, why not Dunn? Why Mara? (to be clear, Im not opposed, Im just wondering why -- if you are opposed to Jake as it appears -- you wouldnt go where there was already two bodies.)

[teacher]

Likewise RCE, ya know I’m not happening today, so what’s shakin, bacon?

[teacher]

Yea, but it ain’t happening. I’ve seen reads of my a lot slip a bit over the course of the day, but only to about a null average, and somehow I don’t think Dunn exactly pushes it across the top (and RCE has shown no inclination to do so). Mostly I’m trying to find a way to congeal those who find the Jake wagon distasteful.

[teacher]

9-2, with only PP and RCE. And yet......VOTE: jake

[teacher]

Both kills off wagon, including the mafias obviously? It’s clear chkflp’s joinder brought us luck.

VOTE: chemist - most obvious pair for Jake in my book, and clearly my reads were indeed off yesterday.

[teacher]

Let’s dance Bell

[teacher]

Yes, RCE was suspecting me.
Yes, I hard defended Jake.

But I also gave intent on him and quite clearly left my L-1 vote on him up for several hours, with intent expressed, only to try hard defending.

Do you really honestly think that any scum busses like that?

[teacher]

I was wrong, but I thought it would make it pretty obvious I’m not mafia. I could have seen suspecting me as a wolf til RCE’s flip, but I don’t think my awkward positioning and flipping around Jake makes any sense for a partner whose going to have to play survivor.

[teacher]

(And yes, I suspected RCE — which was (a) right, (b) why I wouldn’t use my nk on him, a slot I could easily push, and (c) why you should take his read of me with a giant grain of salt).

[teacher]

For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure this game is about as near auto as it can get without actually being so. We don’t have any public set up information yet, but at 8:1:1 we have essentially two mis-eliminations, and those miseliminations are considerably less likely because

• theres a 60% chance (49/81) that 4 of those 8 are PRs who won’t be counterclaimed if they are run up.
  
• a 90% (77/81) chance that at least 3 are, and
  
• in all cases, including the remaining 10% of only two PRs, there is a substantial likelihood that the PRs can clear other towns.

I have some additional setup thoughts, but want to sleep on them before trying to write them out.

[teacher]

Unvote please.

At 8:1:1 that is soon to become 7:1, massclaim might help given the sheer number of PRs — we can list out all the clears and chain investigations so that it becomes true auto.

I love that Bell can’t counterclaim, despite softing a PR o day start.

[teacher]

UNVOTE:

[teacher]

I thought I’m humbled implied an investigative who had been role blocked after some fashion. Perhaps not. Either way, well played.

[teacher]

I agree that massclaim can wait until tomorrow, since at 7:1 scum still can’t counterclaim. But I think the advantage of it today is ensuring that any investigatives can publicly. coordinate their targets so as to maximize knowntowns and not overlap, and so that any protectives can be properly located as well.

Bottom line is I don’t much care, but I think there is an advantage to doing it today. I’ll vote bell whenever people are ready for the day to end.

[teacher]

agree to fast night

At this point I think we are just waiting for PP to check in, and are at E-2? Ill vote as soon as we hear from that slot (to confirm no counter, etc.)

[teacher]

VOTE: Bell

[teacher]

Hammer scum time!

[teacher]

Essentially we are playing the old newby setup, with two extraneous PRs. Clearly Pp is the expert in that setup, but he hasn’t been here. I don’t care much about massclaim or not at this point.


VOTE: chemist is still the most likely pairing for Jake in my book.

[teacher]

Yoink.

[teacher]

Last mafia is probably in Penguin/Gamma/Teacher/Chemist. It can likely be narrowed down further from pr claims and actions tomorrow

I’m personally of the (biased?) opinion that this means Dunn’s N1 investigation was somewhere in these 4 and returned a clear.

VC 1.27

Jake The Wolfie (7) - dramonic, Hiraki, Marashu, Almost50, Bell, Chemist1422, teacher

[EXILED!]

teacher (2) - Dunnstral, RCEnigma
Dunnstral (2) - PenguinPower, teacher
dramonic (1) - Gamma Emerald
Hiraki (1) - Jake The Wolfie
Marashu (1) - Dannflor.

Interesting that the nks remain off the D1 wagon.

[teacher]

Auditor. Clear on PP and chkflip - they are not mafia PRs.

[teacher]

UNVOTE:

[teacher]

Essentially we are playing the old newby setup, with two extraneous PRs.

Clearly Pp

is the expert in that setup, but he hasn’t been here. I don’t care much about massclaim or not at this point.


VOTE: chemist is still the most likely pairing for Jake in my book.

Both kills off wagon, including the mafias obviously? It’s

clear chkflp’

s joinder brought us luck.

VOTE: chemist - most obvious pair for Jake in my book, and clearly my reads were indeed off yesterday.

My results crumbs.

[teacher]

I still feel fairly strongly about mafia having a rolecop

?? Just cover?

Crumbs?

Action claims?

Concerned because your claim could be the column C fake, but that’d be one hell of a hard bus.

[teacher]

I die tonight basically no matter what. I’m k own town and if deans claim is real, mafia roleblocks him. I’ll give you my best read before I die, so kindly allow me the hammer.

[teacher]

Knowntown and dram***

[teacher]

Well if you believe drams claim it’s auto at this point so whatchu bitchen aboot

[teacher]

Yea, I was explaining why I claimed, not so much for him.

[teacher]

You explaining why you bussed or why you claimed

You’ve had several cheeky lines like that today.

Mind answering my questions?

[teacher]

Yoink.