Open 889 | Secrets of the Anuket Topaz | fin.

[imaginality]

Hi from eveningtime in NZ.

I feel like T3 has done some pretty solid work in advancing the gamestate a little further out of RVS in spite of the sea of shitposting around him

VOTE: camelCasedsnivy

third scum here

jjh/T3/Prism

we can all go home now
Turn this boat around whoever is piloting this thing now that the captain is gone

This but unironically.

Well, who knows about jjh or Prism, but I vibe with the T3 bit at least, for this in particular:

Why is that a scum post

VOTE: T3

[imaginality]

Why is that a scum post

VOTE: T3

Why is that a scum post

Hah, touché.

It's the challenging without denying aspect of it.

Seems like scum!you knows it's a scum post but you're surprised someone accurately read it as such. Compared with town!you knowing it's not a scum post and curious why someone would think it is.

[imaginality]

Back and on my quick skim of the last few pages I feel better about T3. Patchwork and jjh also feel town to me. Firebringer I lean town on too.

VOTE: Unvote

Prism feels like they're trying to control the game state. Maybe that's their playstyle though? I can see it either way but given it's a low activity D1 I think it's pro town to be doing stuff and generating some reactions and content.

Funny how camel asked T3 if his camel vote was for opportunism because I do get that vibe a tad.

VOTE: camel

camel, what's your opinion of Ydrasse so far? And vice versa @Ydrasse

[imaginality]

I'm not voting you because of you asking T3 that question, or not directly at least

[imaginality]

@Shirou my approach at the moment has been to skim and see what pings me one way or the other. Happy to let people float around null rather than efforting too hard with overanalysing stuff. So yeah I'm not trying to give a comprehensive readslist yet.

@Ydrasse part of the reason for me asking is in your earlier read was you weren't sure about whether the town vibes camel was giving you are genuine, and camel's made a bunch of posts since then so I wondered if that's helped you lean more one way or the other.

[imaginality]

@Imaginality

Can you please confirm to us from where you started to read the game this last time you posted? Or do you've any excuses for both not noticing Ydrasse's long post commenting on T3 and Camel, along with giving an opinion on most slots that posted in the few pages but not on one that has the highest amount of posts from spamming a few pages before?

I'd read every post to that point, though 'browsed through' is perhaps a better turn of phrase. Didn't skip any pages

[imaginality]

If it helps my main thoughts I recall having about your posts have been "does this to and fro discussion between Shriou and Prism help me sort either of them? Hmm nope it feels like they could be partnered or non aligned and have this conversation either way" and "how do I feel about Shirou pushing std? Hmm well std hasn't done much yet so seems like someone Shirou could choose to push regardless of alignment"

[imaginality]

I don’t like Shirou’s interactions with imaginality

I get the reverse feeling. As in, I appreciate Shirou pushing imaginality to further explain their thinking. And it’s fair to ask if imaginality had read every post thus far since what they had asked about had been at least answered in part. I think imaginality realized that they were being called out (fairly) for not paying sufficient attention, and pivoted to a more specific follow up not to look bad. I don’t know if I maginality actually cares about the response but I’m still reading.

I felt Shirou's questions to me seemed genuine. Though I wouldn't descibe my response as "pivoting to avoid looking bad". People asked me about stuff, I explained.

I felt the opposite about Ydrasse's response when I asked her and camel for their reads on each other, it felt off to me. Seemed like trying to add to the 'imaginality's not bothering to read' portrayal Shirou was painting of me rather than seeing there was a valid reason for the question.

I think Ydrasse is a better counter wagon than Alisae. VOTE: Ydrasse

[imaginality]

Life happened. I'm back. I see y'all've been busy!
The main thing that I discovered from the last few dozen pages is that people still play minesweeper, who knew?

I like Shirou’s theory about the activity picking up suggesting Alisae could be scum. Even more so if Ydrasse is also scum so scum need to find a different counterwagon to Ydrasse.

Titus's point about Ydrasse voting patchwork, I don't know how much I see it as a scumslip but I think it does indicate Ydrasse not paying close attention to who's who which does add to my suspicion of her.

This however does seem like a possible slip?

Everyone unvote Alisae.

you're townreading alisae?

Not exactly, but

I think their logic makes sense. I feel like

town

would've mentally slipped up there under pressure.

They're not clear but for now I want to vote somewhere else.

Gob what did you mean by that?

---
I townlean Fire, Titus, Andre.
camel and T3 too.

I'm also feeling more townleany on Shirou and Prism now, earlier I was consciously being cautious as their playstyles could come from either alignment but I'm starting to feel they are both trying to solve rather than having ulterior intent.

Jjh and StD are my more neutral tier.

So: Gob, Alisae and Ydrasse scumteam.

Sorted!

[imaginality]

@jjh re. Gob: I didn't like the "I never said never" in 536 when he literally did say never ("we're 100% never fading StD today") and then 537 straight after seemed like maybe hoping to get Andres to back off a bit by townreading him.

The early vote and focus on Alisae then timing of the unvote in 607 fits a potential scumbuddies scenario. Wanting to appear suspicious but not risk them actually getting limmed.

Since then he's expressed suspicion of me, StD, Prism and Camel but it's felt to me kinda like he's just trying to find a viable wagon on whoever rather than really caring about who is actually scum.

"So you think one or more of these are mafia with Alisae and they are planning on hopping off Alisae soon?" in 957 made sense to ask, but was an interesting comment since in a gob and Alisae scumbuddies world that's exactly what gob did himself earlier on.

[imaginality]

Re. Alisae it's more about the activity and counterwagon argument but also they've been pretty focused on just Shirou and StD and I don't think either of them have been scummy enough to warrant that so it feels more like scum faking being tunnelled to me.

[imaginality]

Was all of it horrid or just the bit about you?

[imaginality]

If StD is scum but Ali is town, I don't know, it was risky at least to unvote Ali there.

That's what I've been mulling over for the past minutes.

Why did StD unvote if he's scum and Ali is town? It still feels like a possible scenario, maybe he thought he would look too bad after an Ali townflip, but it also makes me think they may either be both town or both scum.

Can I interest you in town!StD scum!Alisae?

[imaginality]

To the mafia voting me: go pick on a more challenging target. Are you really so lacking in confidence that you need to go after a low-hanging fruit to scrape by rather than take on a tougher townier target and wreath yourselves in glory if you succeed?

Do you want this game to be one you feel vaguely guilty about winning or one that admiring fans proclaim to be Scummy-worthy? One where you drive town to our doom by pitting yourself against the perspicacious precision of Prism, taking on the tenacious tactician Titus, challenging the carefully constructed chaos of camel?

To the townies voting me: stop it, you're just helping the scum slip past us into D2. Speaking of D2, I come into my own D2 onwards once there's some solid ground to start from. Quell your bloodlust (planklust? Given the walk the plank theme) and be a patient grasshopper padawan crewmate, or something.

I'd like to say I'm up this late (3:20am) doing some epic analysis of this game but I've spent the last 8 sodding hours solving work issues and I'm about to crash. Working from home tomorrow so able to be a bit more active then.

Seriously though. You're all better than this.

[imaginality]

He looked like he was trying to solve at the start whereas more recently it has looked like he is trying to find a passable solve, and the latest big "I am low hanging fruit" post has massively negative appeal to me, particularly if it is not actually followed up in the promised manner

I haven't seen such a blatant appear to fear in awhile.

I thought the excessively purple prose was enough to make it obvious it wasn't a serious defence but apparently not.

I like Titus's wagon thoughts at first glance except I don't see it applying to the first wagon (on StD) because I think it was early enough scum wouldn't be worried about it going through regardless of whether it was on scum or on town.

And with the Alisae wagon from memory it seemed like some people were trying to generate counterwagons but they didn't go anywhere so I don't think we can conclude scum were necessarily

content

to let that wagon build without a counter.

[imaginality]

isnt the imaginality wagon just based on low post count? is there something I'm missing

Low wagon posting, everyone doesn't townread him, he's bad on wagons, he flails and bails rather than give content.

Bad on wagons?

I thought you also scum read Ydrasse who I've been voting most of today.

[imaginality]

and you think that this is the most likely wagon to give us scum today?

I meant this towards Imaginality/Titus wagons that have been progressively getting bigger without much in counterwagon attempts.

I've reconsidered my position and my final conclusion is that I really don't think Alisae is town. @Imaginality, @Titus, what would take you to vote Ali since the other most likely alternatives are one of you?

I don't see Ydrasse happening today and recent posts of Alisae's haven't altered me leaning scum on them so I'd be happy to move my vote to Alisae, yeah.

VOTE: Alisae E-2 I think?

I also want to share this thought to see if it rings true for anyone:

I wondered if Prism's "here are some reasons to vote Titus, oh, wait, no I misread one of the games, it's fine, carry on" sequence of posts 1442 - 1443 was genuine, or was it faked and intended to add a bit of distance without putting Titus at risk of a wagon building on her? It just feels like a mistake Prism might be unlikely to actually make what with their careful posting style?

I might be overthinking that, like it seems most folks think I was with Ydrasse's slip, but just putting it out there.

[imaginality]

Nope I thought I could go back a page or two and Dannflor would've updated one of those pagetops but nope I had to skim through like 20 pages.

[imaginality]

I just wanted to make sure I announced it if I was putting you at E-1

[imaginality]

Shirou, your whiteknight scumtell theory makes sense to me and I can see jjh's twilight posting as fitting that role. I'm a bit wary about how strongly you're pushing it though, because, the scenario where this theory fails is if you happen to be scum and told your buddies, "Hey, don't whiteknight Alisae, I'm gonna wreck town D2 with my pet scumtell."

I am also suspicious of Titus for starting out as hard as she has today. Seems like she could be trying to get in a driving seat just to ensure she's not today's lim.

But I don't see Ydrasse and Titus as scumbuddies so if Titus is scum I'm wrong on Ydrasse.

[imaginality]

I don't want to lim anyone yet. I'm taking time to reassess after the Alisae townflip.

The easy choice is figuring out which side of Titus vs Ydrasse is scummier but with the three day weekend here this is a good chance for me to dig deeper into some players I've not paid close attention to, and to form a stronger conclusion about Shirou and Prism.

[imaginality]

By easy choice I mean that's a current topic of debate so it's front of mind. I want to take a broader look at things

[imaginality]

holy shit this entire time i thought imaginalitys profile was a purple seahorse

Thanks, this made me lol during an otherwise stressful workday! Funny enough to go on my sig!

[imaginality]

@T3
@jjh927
@Save The Dragons
@imaginality
@Andresvmb

It's time. Reads list or you DIE!!!!!!

I literally just mentioned how I want to use the weekend to update my reads, especially on players who haven't been front of mind. If you're going to kill me for not posting a readslist here and now then go ahead and do it quickly so I don't waste my weekend?

[imaginality]

I can understand how me switching to voting Alisae near the end of the day might seem suspicious to some folk (though I had mentioned scumleaning her throughout D1).

However I'm surprised Ydrasse finds it suspicious (1847) when she was the wagon I left. If Ydrasse is town she knows she's town so why would I feel the need to jump from one town wagon to another?

[imaginality]

VOTE: Titus

With the way this game is designed I see Titus's push today as trying to get me mislimmed knowing she can skip town tonight so it doesn't matter how bad she looks after I flip town.

(Full readslist in due course)

[imaginality]

Readslist:

Towniest
Fire
T3
Jjh
Camel

Andres
StD

Gob
Ydrasse
Prism
Titus

Scummiest

[imaginality]

I'm around for a bit right now if you feel like a conversation will help you sort me either way.

[imaginality]

Also if you want any quiz questions on food, movie scenes, trick questions, diamonds, sport, or records, I just ran a quiz night so I can provide those too. Though, probably less useful for sorting me

[imaginality]

Movie/TV SFX trivia and mafia trivia questions:

1. Who played Marty McFly's daughter in Back to the Future II?
2. Which silent movie star famously stood still as a house facade fell on him?
3. A rotating hotel corridor was a set made for filming a scene in which movie?
4. True or False: when Sylvester Stallone starred in Cliffhanger he had a severe fear of heights?
5. The sound of which famous science fiction machine was originally made by scraping a front door key along piano strings?
6. True or False: the world's first automatic sliding doors were created for filming Star Trek scenes?
7. Which romcom has a scene where a character walks through a market as the seasons change around him?
8. The script for a science fiction movie has an iconic scene where the script for the scene simply says, "This thing emerges," to avoid informing the cast beforehand. What was the movie?
9. Why is it hard to see why I suspected Ydrasse, I thought I was being reasonably clear? (But to summarise: initially pinged me for what I felt was a deliberate misrep of my question to her; bolstered by me buying Titus's "patchwork/Titus scumslip" theory; Titus looking worse makes Ydrasse look less bad (unless you think they're comfortable going quite hard at each other); but 1847 didn't seem to come from a townie headspace, so I still lean scum)
10. Why does it feel to me like Prism maybe was just active D1 for positioning reasons and once it was clear Shirou in particular wasn't going to go hard at them for the D1 lim felt a lot more relaxed to let stuff happen without being directive; and the "oops misread the game" posts about Titus seem very like a possible fake bit of distancing, and fos-ing Titus but not actually seriously voting her seems like a plausible scumbuddy position to hold (one could say maybe too obvious but this setup deters stronger bussing or hard defending)?

[imaginality]

10. Why does it feel to me like Prism maybe was just active D1 for positioning reasons and once it was clear Shirou in particular wasn't going to go hard at them for the D1 lim felt a lot more relaxed to let stuff happen without being directive

I don't get what "once it was clear Shirou in particular wasn't going to go hard at them for the D1 lim" means.

Can you explain why Shirou, the most vocal advocate of the Alisae wagon who spent many pages tunneling Alisae, would blame me, who viewed Alisae as a nullscum acceptable alternative to my preferred lim, for the Alisae vote?

To clarify I meant on D1 when it became clear Shirou was happy to not go after you D1

as

the D1 lim.

[imaginality]

I'm around for a bit right now if you feel like a conversation will help you sort me either way.

Talk in detail about Gob

I still stand by my view that 947 could be a slip (TMI knowing Alisae is town). And Gob spent a fair amount of time focusing on Alisae D1 only to somehow not end up on er wagon keeping his hands clean cos he sees there's enough impetus for it to go through without him.

The "Alisae is fine let's look elsewhere" in 891 and "everyone unvote alisae" later feel a bit weak, like I think town townreading Alisae might try harder to stop er being limmed?

There were a couple of other things that niggled me a bit like the incorrect statement in 536 followed by the more placatory 537, and how 1863 feels performative.

In terms of Gob interactions with my other scumreads today, Gob flipped from voting Titus in 1735 to townreading her in 1856 plus made a case on Ydrasse in 1840 that quickly reversed itself by 1850 after Ydrasse replied. I could see either of those as distancing.

Though I am probably wrong overall on at least one of the three of them, but (obviously) if I am I don't see which.

[imaginality]

It's not about Alisae. It's about Gob saying Alisae's logic makes sense and that "town would have slipped up there under pressure" when he must have meant "scum would have slipped up there under pressure". Could be a typo, could be a sign of hidden knowledge of Alisae's alignment.

[imaginality]

It's less about when Shirou was suspecting you specifically more about when he started tunnelling so that you knew he wouldn't be likely to target you. As in I think if you're scum and Shirou is town he would be someone you'd be more concerned about as an opponent if he targets you whereas I feel like you'd have confidence in your ability to take on other people in this playlist if they suspect you.

Maybe I'm off on the timing of things though. I will go look at you+Shirou iso.

[imaginality]

I'm happy to agree to disagree on it. It's not like I think it by itself is enough to lim (or even vote) Gob but I don't think it's "literally nothing". What did you think of my other comments about Gob?

[imaginality]

Could camel be bussing jjh? When I look at his progression on jjh throughout his ISO it makes sense and I don't think that camel's sustained questioning of jjh comes from scumpartners, like I can see the town motivation and a deeper thought process behind his questions and interactions.

Does the "town motivation and deeper thought process" point here refer to jjh's posts rather than camel's? Or if it's referring to camel as what sounds like a reason to townread him, how does that square with you voting him right before this post?

[imaginality]

Fire was way more active as scum in the game I played with him (not sure if his scum playstyle is always that way or if it was purely tactical for that particular game given his scumbuddies were also hyperposting) but it's distinctly different from this game.

[imaginality]

Hey Prism, when I'm scum I usually bus heavily so feel free to vote with me even if you do scumread me.

There's probably more reason to vote with me if I were scum than if I were town actually, hit rate wise.

[imaginality]

Gob and Prism have done the "early distancing and then softening" pattern this game and now both vote me makes me wonder if they could be partners. I think if so then that points to Titus town and them wanting to redirect today's lim to another townie now the Titus wagon has started to dwindle.

[imaginality]

Yes, for her play at the start of today, but I don't see Gob and Prism aligned with Titus so either I'm wrong about my hunch their shift to pushing me might be aligned, or I'm wrong about Titus.

Re. camel it's a low townread just because I haven't got the sense that camel has been posting with a hidden agenda, and also haven't got the impression camel has hidden info. Seems a bit all over the place but asks some questions that make sense to ask.

[imaginality]

I see what you're getting at but I can imagine scum thinking I'm more likely to post 'bad' posts than camel so easier to justify getting me limmed as "oh well he really looked bad".

Alternatively it's possible they were worried about a lim building on whoever the third scum is in this scenario, or on one of them. I'd have to reread the last few pages or more though (from whenever the last votecount was) to see whether that's plausible. I'll do that later tonight (NZ)

[imaginality]

Sure it is. I know my alignment. Right now I'm not trying to convince others I'm just trying to make sense of the game from my perspective

[imaginality]

I think Prism's pushed camel a bit too seriously today to be distancing.

I don't know what to make of Prism's interactions with Firebringer. Doesn't give me alignment pings on either.

[imaginality]

The fact that Prism was unable to put in activity due to IRL reasons for a while is the reason he is only just popping up now regardless of his alignment. The timing of a push won't inherently have scum motivation as its primary cause in this case because there is a known much bigger reason for that timing

My comment wasn't about Prism's activity levels, it was more about the way those two votes came on me with little in the way of additional justification and at a time when it seems like a successful wagon push might be valuable for scum

[imaginality]

2058 is most recent votecount:
imaginality [3]: Ydrasse, camelCasedSnivy, Titus
Titus [1]: Firebringer
Shirou [1]:Andresvmb
jjh927 [1]: gob
camelCasedSnivy [1]: jjh927

I vote Titus 2074
Fire votes camel 2077
Ydrasse unvotes me 2084
StD votes me 2099
T3 votes me 2168
Prism votes camel 2190
Camel switches from me to jjh 2197
Prism votes Fire 2200
Gob votes me 2203
T3 votes camel 2214
T3 unvotes 2235
Prism votes camel 2240
Prism votes me 2246

Fuck who knows. I could be wrong. I can see scum wanting to make their preferred lim happen or at least become inevitable before Shirou gets active in case he stirs stuff up again. StD's vote on me would also fit but StD seems more of a coinflip.

I don't think camel switches away from me to jjh when he did, if camel is scum.

[imaginality]

You don't think they'd rather like to avoid having to reveal five players as townies?

[imaginality]

It effectively changes it from 8-2 tomorrow to 3-2. Pretty sure their second scummiest player can hide better among 10 than among 5.

[imaginality]

I am an atheist if that counts as me posting in bad faith

[imaginality]

People have already noted Titus making a big deal of Shirou not sheeping her today isn't warranted but I agree with jjh that Titus's play today seems like scum aiming to drain town's energy. She's trying to push through a mislim by treating it as a foregone conclusion.

Which makes me feel less good about Firebringer because of posts like this.

like yes, if she is scum she is going to leave but like....i kind of dont care

I think this is a good point:

Titus thinks all her scumreads are unreasonably pushing her which surely only proves that she is exactly right

Although if you ask her about some other slots then there is no way that all scum would be on the same wagon

Since my previous posts (aside from the one liner) I looked again at the time line and yeah my Prism-gob paranoia was probably indeed just paranoia. Although of the two, I still feel a bit wary of gob individually.

StD's recent posts fit with being a potential Titus buddy, offering a townread on her and support for my lim. Albeit seems possibly a bit risky to do that as a scumbuddy in this game though, where we only need to catch one scum. But maybe a risk worth taking.

Andres's recent posts were underwhelming.

I'm thinking the game structure means there are advantages to at least one or two scum being noncommittal (whether by being lurky or by being wishywashy) and hard to connect to their buddies. Considering they can't distance too hard cos ending up bussing would be bad from them D1/D2 and game ending after that, and distancing but then not wanting to see someone limmed is easier to spot as a progression compared with absent or null reads. I mean sure then there's wifom on top and all that but still.

Town: jjh, Shirou, T3, Prism
Lean town: camel
Mixed: Firebringer, Andres
Lean scum: gob, Ydrasse
Scum: Titus, StD

[imaginality]

I can see why for people who feel unsure between me and Titus going for me has less downside than risking losing town!Titus.

I probably should throw in some parting thoughts but if I had some amazing insight I'd have posted it already.

I forgot this is a no nightkill D1 setup, was expecting to have more to dig into today. Also cos I was expecting Alisae to flip scum. This D2 has kinda felt more like a second D1.

Shirou I disagree with your takes on my posts, will respond to those in like an hour

[imaginality]

OK let's go over some Imaginality stuff now:

He has fewer posts than the mod so not a lot to dig into:

Nearly as many vote counts though :p

I like Shirou’s theory about the activity picking up suggesting Alisae could be scum.

Even more so if Ydrasse is also scum so scum need to find a different counterwagon to Ydrasse

.

Ydrasse was the primary suspect of Imaginality before the wagon rose up I believe, so it's interesting to me that he didn't consider more strongly the possibility that Ali may be *the* counterwagon to Ydrasse that he's hypothesizing.

The increased activity seemed more around when Alisae's wagon was building, from memory? [If you care enough I can dig back and check] so your point about it suggesting scum looking for counterwagons I don't think would have applied then?

This however raises my eyebrows further:

This however does seem like a possible slip?

Everyone unvote Alisae.

you're townreading alisae?

Not exactly, but

I think their logic makes sense. I feel like

town

would've mentally slipped up there under pressure.

They're not clear but for now I want to vote somewhere else.

Gob what did you mean by that?

Gob seem to obviously have made a typo there replacing "scum" with "town", but Imaginality tries to engage him on it under the guise that it "may actually be a slip".

He also doesn't seem to pursue the slip theory further later on. It feels like busywork/ingenuine.

-------- /// --------

It wasn't obvious to me it was a typo. It seemed worth asking about. Both to see what others thought and also see if gob got defensive about it. No one else seemed to think it was significant so I let it be.

I can understand how me switching to voting Alisae near the end of the day might seem suspicious to some folk (though I had mentioned scumleaning her throughout D1).

However I'm surprised Ydrasse finds it suspicious (1847) when she was the wagon I left. If Ydrasse is town she knows she's town so why would I feel the need to jump from one town wagon to another?

This posts reads as a bit too self-aware to me, I'm not sure anyone other than Ydrasse perhaps had mentioned Imaginality being scummy for voting Alisae.

In my experience any late day vote switches onto a mislim, someone is going to be wary of? But that's irrelevant because the point was, I was replying to Ydrasse in particular. Making the point that if she were town, her suspicion of me for vote switching made less sense given she knows her own alignment, compared with if someone else had seen my vote switch as suspicious.

[imaginality]

I'm with Prism, this no night phase stuff is brutal.

I'm keen to look back and see who helped funnel today into me v Titus. And at camel interactions.

To me camel hammering the way it happened means camel's teammates are very likely either more townread or on the Titus wagon.

[imaginality]

I can see gob with camel but less sure on std because it seems maybe a bit risky to let camel escape before std?

[imaginality]

Since my previous posts (aside from the one liner) I looked again at the time line and yeah my Prism-gob paranoia was probably indeed just paranoia. Although of the two, I still feel a bit wary of gob individually.

...

Town: jjh, Shirou, T3, Prism
Lean scum: gob, Ydrasse

I get that the Prism/gob speculation died and the timeline criticism eased. Can you explain why it moved me all the way up to town? I'd also appreciate an update with where your reads are at.

You got promoted to town based on vibes - in that whereas earlier I'd found it hard to get a sense of how I read your posts (they felt pro town but in a way that could come from town or from skilled scum), but that later passage of play felt like you were responding genuinely to me. It also felt like it would have been a good time to push me harder if you were scum and thought my reasons were bad, whereas you disagreed in a more open way. Gob on the other hand even though I was wrong on that particular point, I got scummier vibes from how he interacted with me.

My reads are a bit fucked after scumreading both the lims. My confidence is low and I'm secondguessing myself about who else I'm wrong about one way or the other.

Townlean:
Prism
Jjh

Unsure:

Shirou (not sure Shirou bothers to vote me for bad reasons end of D2 if he knows I'm town as well as Titus - could have reflected badly on him if I were limmed)
T3 - need to reread more
Fire (hasn't triggered any alarms but I don't feel particularly confident enough to call him town)
Andres - I remember some D2 posts seemed not great but I haven't dug back into it yet
SavetheDragons - like I say, I'm not sure camel leaves before StD (unless maybe there's some juicy associatives with StD; if there is it'd probably be someone defending him/steering attention away from him at the times it seemed his wagon could build to a lim... will try to look into that)

Scumlean:
Ydrasse
gob

[imaginality]

This is what I found in terms of people trying to guide the D2 focus towards Titus v me:

gut impulse is that it's titus + imaginality + 1

Imaginality scum becomes a lot more likely if you're town [this was to Titus]

i think titus is a good vote if people wanted to vote her but i don’t think that happens so i’m on imaginality

UNVOTE:
going to reread soon, don’t feel so keen about this vote anymore
titus v imaginality could be s/s but that doesn’t feel right rn

Well we never want to vote outside of Titus/imaginality today because they were both the strongest c-wagons when you factor out people afk-parked on Ydrasse.

[imaginality]

My first impression of Andres' bunch of posts just now is the thought process makes sense to me. Particularly the suspicion of gob but also the wariness over Shirou.

I feel like it woule have been really tempting for Andres as scum to add to the pressure on StD rather than redirecting to gob. Unless the scumteam is specifically Andres and StD. But I still doubt camel escapes first with StD as a scumbuddy though. So I'm going to say Andres is town.

VOTE: gob

[imaginality]

@gob: I don't think any of those three voting T3 were previously voting Andres so not sure how you can say they're responsible for the wagon shift?

Of those three I don't rule out voting Firebringer potentially but I think whoever goes next via lim or escape probably helps us read Fire better. If I really am wrong about Andres then Fire could be a potential partner I think?

I still feel some paranoia about Shirou but my head says town. And I really think StD would've jumped ship before camel if scum.

The complete different reactions from Prism etc to Andres' posts surprised me. I'm not really convinced gob's camel progression points to gob being town. Particularly if gob knew camel would be the first to jump ship.

---

I've been reading today to keep up with what's going on but currently at hospital with my daughter so not likely to be posting anything too substantive.

[imaginality]

VOTE: T3[/v3]

Seems more likely scum than anyone voting him.
Potentially could be scum with gob if I'm right about gob.

[imaginality]

VOTE: T3

[imaginality]

Nope not saying you're the only possible partner in a scum!Andres world but just that some other people I really don't think could be teamed with Andres.

Similarly for most other players there are people I think don't fit as scumbuddies.

My point was I'd rather see who else is scum than consider limming you today without that extra info.

[imaginality]

(I believe that's three on Andres-T3, Ydra, Prism-and four on T3-Shirou, Firebringer, Dragons, imaginality)

This feels significant that T3 didn't get hammered.
Makes me think if T3 is town then gob and Ydrasse and Andres are town because I think any of them as scum would just take the chance to hammer town and escape. (As none of them are especially well positioned.)

But the more likely scenario is T3 is scum.

[imaginality]

Oh d'oh. Ignore that then, I thought it was 5

[imaginality]

My first impression of Andres' bunch of posts just now is the thought process makes sense to me. Particularly the suspicion of gob but also the wariness over Shirou.

I feel like it woule have been really tempting for Andres as scum to add to the pressure on StD rather than redirecting to gob. Unless the scumteam is specifically Andres and StD. But I still doubt camel escapes first with StD as a scumbuddy though. So I'm going to say Andres is town.

VOTE: gob

Like I can understand that this how you feel from a strategic perspective. Namely, I seem to be avoiding STD, pushing gob, if you think Shirou is Town, I can probably never get Prism from this position, then it would make sense that I’m aligned with STD, and you don’t see how camel leaves STD behind. That’s clear. But is there anything about my play specifically?

Nope, it was basically because of the game state.
I do like that you've been efforting more today and that that seemed to start before you came heavily under suspicion (ironically maybe if you'd posted less then there would've been less for Prism to go at you for). I think with this game structure though there's good reasons for scum to try hard today so I don't see it as AI.

I'd say your responses to Prism have felt reasonable (like, I have more issues with the way gob responds to pressure on their slot which has a more omgussy vibe to it at times). But I don't think there's anything in particular I'd point at in your play today and say "obvtown" or "obvscum".

---
From possible lims today I'd probably rather lim gob/T3/StD over Andres (despite my doubts with camel leaving first, maybe camel plus std plus hmm Fire maybe might be a team cocky and risk-inclined enough to go for the wifom).

In other news:

Shirou's hmmm melodramatic posts rub me the wrong way but from what I recall he was similar in Team Mafia (I didn't play in the game with him but read along with it) and was town there so it's proooobably just playstyle but he's in my paranoia solve.

Ydrasse seems to be sneaking by a bit under the radar today (including by me). But she maybe doesn't fit with camel scum?

Idk. If I'm going to be mislimmed I'd prefer it be today and hopefully people correct course tomorrow, rather than tomorrow for the loss. I'm a tad wary scum might have me in mind for their intended mislim tomorrow. We'll see I guess

P-edit: haven't read any of the last page or so, will so later

[imaginality]

Prism: I work hard to get reads 20% better than chance

Gob: I have 80% read accuracy

Gob: I'm not claiming superiority in any way

[imaginality]

Not sure how often I'll be on the next few days so I'll put my vote on Andres now.

Hopefully Prism is town and is right.

VOTE: Andres

[imaginality]

If we can get an Ydrasse lim I'd happily go there rather than Andres

[imaginality]

Hi, I'm here for a bit.

Have to admit I've only skimmed today pretty much. Did anyone explicitly not hammer Andres when they had the chance?

Do those recent votes put me E-1 now too?

[imaginality]

If so, whoever's not-scum and not-voting me should non-hammer me while you can cos scum are probably going to given the chance

[imaginality]

Voting on a viable wagon on a buddy is definitely very risky for scum today since that's game ending if it goes wrong or if they have to bail too obviously.

Whereas deliberately not blitzing on a wagon on town, I could see that in some hands that might be a clever move for getting town cred to help them through tomorrow. So I don't think we can place that much weight on it

[imaginality]

(Also thanks for the well-wishes, my kiddo's home again now)

[imaginality]

Ydrasse has been in the lower half of my reads all game. But today I've doubted that read mainly because I feel like she would likely have left before camel.

I can see your point that the unvote when Andres was E-1 does look a bit bad.

Shirou, I don't think is paired with Andres. I've found some of his posts performative (though like I said earlier, his playstyle seems to be like that) but I don't really see us ever limming him today so have been more trying to figure out who the weaker link would be. I just wouldn't want Shirou to be town binned D4 if we mislim today.

In other news I'm still not sure why gob is getting so strongly townread on tone. I mean I do think gob believes a bunch of what he's saying but he could believe it as scum and have played accordingly.

[imaginality]

You know, there is a Gob wagon at the moment

There is. If we're not doing Andres I'd rather T3 than gob though. The vote count iso suggests T3 got up to 4 votes earlier but I don't recall why things moved away.

Are you firmly on the Andres + someone else train of thought? Do you think Gob is a possible Andres partner?

I think the way today's gone there's probably scum between Andres and T3.
I don't recall any reason why Andres couldn't be scum with either of T3 or gob. Or it could be gob and T3. I think any combination of those with camel could well decide camel should escape first.

I think if it were up to me our two lims would be among the three of them and if the team is something outside that, like Shirou Prism or something, well played scum.

Maybe I'd include Fire as a possible lim tomorrow.

I don't see myself voting out you, Prism, or Shirou unless there's a really good case. And I don't see myself voting out Ydrasse or StD because of gamestate.

[imaginality]

Maybe but I don't know, it seems early enough in the day. And also I think he was the main wagon himself when he first voted Andres today? I can see he might have thought it smarter to switch to town!me via scum buddy rather than straight switch, considering if we mislim we'll be analysing the votes of whoever escapes.

[imaginality]

Std's posts just now came across so scummy, like a scummy scum who's excited about getting to escape just as soon as they hassle someone into hammering me for the mislim

[imaginality]

Why the fuck is no one discussing the votes/partner thing.

Now imaginality wagon just picked up speed.

i think anyone not voting imaginality could be partnered

This is pretty pointless spec cos either I flip scum and the game ends or I flip town and your premise is wrong. Seems more like a way to try to nudge a nervous non voter to hammer me.

Readslist:

Towniest
Fire
T3
Jjh
Camel

Andres
StD

Gob
Ydrasse
Prism
Titus

Scummiest

where is shirou on this list

Not on there. I left him to last because I was uncertain on him and must've forgotten to add him. He would've ended up in the middle at that time but due to mixed feelings rather than a true null read.

Maybe I'm off on the timing of things though. I will go look at you+Shirou iso.

did you ever do this

Yep. A bit later, after my Prism/gob spec. After that point I felt better about Prism. (By 2594)

Hey Prism, when I'm scum I usually bus heavily

Funny how camel asked T3 if his camel vote was for opportunism because I do get that vibe a tad.

VOTE: camel

camel, what's your opinion of Ydrasse so far? And vice versa @Ydrasse

Oh wow feel the forcefulness of that bus.

---
P-edit: @Andres, what jjh said. I do agree with you that you're not likely partnered with StD posting like that though. I just think they want to get a lim through and this sudden buzz of energy seems too much of a jump to be coming from town. As town if they suspect me they're already voting me and I'm E-1 so I think they just feel happy and lurk and let me get limmed.

[imaginality]

ive actually never played connect 4 tbh

Connect 4x4 is where it's really at. (Same rules as connect 4 but 8x8 board and you can build inwards from any edge of it)

And

Ultimate Tic Tac Toe is excellent also

[imaginality]

That's probably my most useful contribution to this game so far tbh

[imaginality]

That's probably my most useful contribution to this game so far tbh

Until I hammer Prism D4 to win this for town

[imaginality]

We all want our but

Snigger

[imaginality]

Checking in.

Slightly surprising to see Shirou killed, was expecting Prism.
Just based on today's posts I think it's T3.

But going to reread now.

[imaginality]

I am slowly progressing through rereading the game

[imaginality]

i don’t think i’ve ever been as lost in a game as i have this one which is a very unique experience. and it sucks

Qft.

I don't think it's Ydrasse.

[imaginality]

I didn't get around to everything I wanted to today but whatever.

TBH I'm probably just going to vote Dragons. I saw multiple good reasons to townread literally everyone else in that triple ISO, while the only strong +town for Dragons was Firebringer's vote in 2967. Other tonal interactions were plausibly clearing to me yesterday but the new Fire/Camel sample showed me that was in error.

It's strong but I suspect I'm going to find stronger from everyone else. My best guess is that Fire was hoping the wagon would naturally defuse. I was hardshoving Andres at that point, and much of Fire's play was already angled at framing Andres. Fire completely 180'd on the Dragons slot with that vote. The only other big question here is why the fuck Dragons stayed over Fire except to troll/cause chaos.

I'm still going to go through the full motions but yeah. I'm still going to reread all of the slots but after my earlier readthrough I think I already know where this is going.

To be honest I can see why Fire would leave in that scumteam given people mostly concluded StD is town because of camel leaving end of D2. The scumteam may have figured StD continues to get a ride through today.

I think T3 is probably town because I think scum T3 probably doesn't want to townread Ydrasse today.

[imaginality]

Pretty sure they weren't expecting me to get as widely townread from the "why did camel leave first if imaginality is also scum" angle and were hoping to make me the D3 mislim.

@Prism I've been kinda assuming jjh as town because of others' townreads (similar to why I eased up on gob). But my POE right now looks like it's either StD or jjh so...

[imaginality]

I just finished reading jjh and I think jjh fits with camel and fire.

I think jjh and camel distanced fairly hard from each other early d2 but I think it was a safeish time to do so.

If you read jjh's posts considering them as scum then they quite carefully criticise Fire's arguments in a few places without scumreading Fire for them.

I don't see anything ruling it out and I do think Fire would leave before jjh. I don't think Fire leaves before T3.

It could be StD, I do think Fire is risk-taking enough to leave StD to get through D4 on wifom.

But I think I wanna go jjh here

VOTE: jjh

[imaginality]

Gob and Prism have done the "early distancing and then softening" pattern this game and now both vote me makes me wonder if they could be partners. I think if so then that points to Titus town and them wanting to redirect today's lim to another townie now the Titus wagon has started to dwindle.

Wasn't Titus your biggest scumread?

Also, do you think Camel is town? Why?

This post, knowing Camel would flip scum, could be trying to tie me to defending Camel.

VOTE: Shirou

Fire you are the number 1 reason that Shirou is out of my scumpile

This is a huge turnaround so what is up

Like, I don't definitively know which of you is defending STD because you're aligned with him but if we go through the defenses we have

Gob- who I have dedicated significant time discussing as of late

Firebringer- who made a meta argument that he would retreat more as scum and that he'd engage more, in a way I don't think holds up to scrutiny because A. STD's responses that he liked were more the result of having the same questions relentlessly asked and he is probably bitter with me regardless of his alignment, and B. He has literally retreated again after he was done defending himself.

Shirou- If I'm understanding correctly it's mainly that he thinks STD would have left the game rather than camels. He apparently scumread this slot all game but is now dragging his feet

Examples of jjh disagreeing with Fire but not being suspicious of Fire.

yes, open question to @everyone:

If either Imaginality or Andres is scum, who the hell is their partner in a way that still explains the votes?

That is a difficult question, yes

I think Firebringer is the only viable Andres partner which makes things very questionable there

Imaginality could be partnered with either you or Ydrasse. I don't think you're scum so that basically leaves Ydrasse who could be partnered with over half the game

Arguing for Andres-Fire team to distance from Fire is fine if you know Andres will flip first and is town.

---

There's probably other posts I could quote to make more of a case but yeah I don't feel super motivated to effort that hard. Would rather people just read through, it doesn't take too long to see that it's a plausible team.

Reading camel and Fire isos also doesn't give any reason to think it can't be jjh.

The one main point against is was it risky to distance hard at the start of D2 which, probably a bit but if you don't then you probably end up caught D3 or D4 so if you're going to gamble on some distancing that might get one of you wagoned, D2 is the day to do it.

[imaginality]

jjh was only on the Titus lim whereas StD was on two lims which adds to the point that StD would be a considerably riskier choice to leave as the final scum on D4 if you compare Fire+StD with Fire+jjh

[imaginality]

StD is just unlikely all things considered. Does anyone have JJH, imaginality m, ydrasse scum games?

I have a hard time thinking its JJH here since his logic has been consistent and non-agenda’d.

One thing I think jjh has done well this game (if I'm right that they're scum) is pick and choose a couple of townies to defend quite hard (e.g. me and Ydrasse D2) which makes them come across as reasonable and discerning rather than bloodthirsty.

[imaginality]

I think you've kinda neglected how Firebringer went to distract me whenever I put the lens on him and I conpletely let him do it
I can certainly tell you that's one of the reasons I didn't get him

That seems like an interaction pattern that could be genuine as scum-town but could as easily be deliberately done as scum-scum.

[imaginality]

Your reads have kinda felt like "whatever ends the game quickest" very recently, and while that's something you have in common with Imag, you specifically aren't even going through the motions of putting any thought into actually getting the elimination right

This is a misrep. I hadn't even voted til just a few hours ago. And my posts earlier today were more around reasons I had for thinking people aren't scum.

[imaginality]

Why would I rule out StD and T3 if I were scum? Aside from you (and me) I don't think anyone else was at risk of being limmed today. And the consensus wasn't on you yet at the times I said they're probably town

[imaginality]

Interested to hear other's thoughts on jjh's response to the votecount on page 177.

I have a bit of a hard time imagining a townie at E-1 as jjh was, on an elo day, calmly continuing a conversation with Prism (4401, 4406, 4411) rather than, at the very least, commenting on it or reacting in some way?

[imaginality]

I'd still vote jjh as of right now but I agree with whoever said the way T3 proclaimed his firebringer interactions were clearing at the start of today was a bit sus.

on my merry go round of reads i think t3 treated camel very strangely in that the assumptions and posts about camel seem to be almost always in terms of team or partner reads that are easier to dismantle and step away from than actually about camel

I'm going to reread T3 in the next few hours so will see if I see this too.

@Prism/anyone, how valid is jjh's claim that their play this game is way outside their scumrange?

[imaginality]

Policy limming StD today would feel a bit deflating if he flips town. In retrospect we should've on one of the earlier days.

If you do think it might help us get some last minute content from StD though, I'm happy to be one of the three votes as additional blitz insurance.

[imaginality]

Your final point is a good one and I can see that combined with Fire and camel being risk taking enough to say StD can ride through while we're focused on questioning our reads on people more townread than Fire.

VOTE: Dragons

[imaginality]

Surely someone with gob's wealth of insight into mafia strategy would not overlook that opportunity if scum

[imaginality]

It would be poetic if StD is scum and had the chance to hammer back then but missed it due to absence

[imaginality]

Well played gob (and Fire and camel). Yeah I had strong suspicions on you D3 gob, but today I let others' townreads shift my focus away. Which is partly on me, if I'd had more capacity to effort more today I might not have done that.