Open 891: STDBINSBICACOT (Game Over)

[davesaz]

VOTE: Dunnstral
I was going to go with random, but I think the confirmation speculation is worth a vote on its own.

[davesaz]

I don't appreciate the acting like I've done something reprehensible.

You've done something that I don't like and wouldn't do. It's not against any rules and it's arguable whether it advances your wincon if you're town.

You're within your rights to do it and I'm within my rights to be unhappy about it. We don't have to dwell on it.

I was under the impression that speculating on reasons for replace-outs is frowned upon in today's ms.

[davesaz]

I think the point's been made about that kind of approach and going further into the rules aspect of it risks breaking the very rule that we'd be discussing.

[davesaz]

I think Dunn's post comes from scum, and thought it was clear I think that from my vote post.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Dannflor

[davesaz]

VOTE: hero

Any special reason for voting the player who's being replaced?

Spoiler: prediction

or maybe you didn't read at all, so didn't know?

[davesaz]

Titus just sidestepped the whole thing. which isnt terribly indicative either way.

What did Titus sidestep? That would pique my interest if I can find it.

[davesaz]

Opening post being a vote + explanation is usually scum. Town doesn't drop an explanation with their vote because why bother?

Wrong, if you care to pay attention to the difference between random opening votes and points in the game where something significant has already showed up.

[davesaz]

Wait, I'm lecturing someone who never seems to effort.

[davesaz]

And then she just ignores me when I pointed that out

FeelsWeirdMan

I am driving

Same

You're posting while driving?

[davesaz]

I think Dunn's post comes from scum, and thought it was clear I think that from my vote post.

What is this post in response to?

I don't think davesaz has indicated that their vote is based on anything other than personally disliking it.

[davesaz]

Opening post being a vote + explanation is usually scum. Town doesn't drop an explanation with their vote because why bother?

And this.

[davesaz]

Opening post being a vote + explanation is usually scum. Town doesn't drop an explanation with their vote because why bother?

Wrong, if you care to pay attention to the difference between random opening votes and points in the game where something significant has already showed up.

Also covered by this.

[davesaz]

davesaz is the only slot that has posted so far that i feel is greater than rand to be scum

This is an example of what gob thinks is scum indicative -- giving a reason that isn't actually a reason.

[davesaz]

davesaz is the only slot that has posted so far that i feel is greater than rand to be scum

This is an example of what gob thinks is scum indicative -- giving a reason that isn't actually a reason.

i think dunnstral's opening was very easy to hop on and you did so without actually digging into what was alignment indicative about it

you just kinda shouted "gross" and voted dunn which feels a little performative and not like you actually care about what dunn's alignment is or showing other people what dunn's alignment might be

Using pregame replacement spec is scummy, full stop.

[davesaz]

davesaz is the only slot that has posted so far that i feel is greater than rand to be scum

This is an example of what gob thinks is scum indicative -- giving a reason that isn't actually a reason.

I'm having such a hard time parsing this post. Who's giving a reason that isn't actually a reason? Do you agree with gob or disagree?

Dannflor gave a "reason" (greater than rand to be scum) that isn't an actual reason.
Gob seems to think that doing this is scummy.
Not sure how this didn't connect.

[davesaz]

Are you ignoring my question or did you just miss it

Who are you asking?

[davesaz]

I think Dunn's post comes from scum, and thought it was clear I think that from my vote post.

VOTE: Dannflor

Do you think Dann is scummier than Dunn?

Equal-ish, at this stage of the game. It's like 1 point each against being town.

[davesaz]

davesaz is the only slot that has posted so far that i feel is greater than rand to be scum

This is an example of what gob thinks is scum indicative -- giving a reason that isn't actually a reason.

i think dunnstral's opening was very easy to hop on and you did so without actually digging into what was alignment indicative about it

you just kinda shouted "gross" and voted dunn which feels a little performative and not like you actually care about what dunn's alignment is or showing other people what dunn's alignment might be

It was a snap judgement on pedit. I had a RVS actually typed in, which I alluded to in the post itself.

[davesaz]

Read 178.

[davesaz]

He

might

earn a couple points for 173.
I would have to re-read Dunnstral's further posts.

This early (less than 200) it's utterly necessary to pick at

something

to see what falls out. I happen to be the one picking this time.

pedit: To illustrate a point. The point being that "sorting" me by saying I commented in a RVS vote that wasn't RVS is laughable at best.

[davesaz]

davesaz is the only slot that has posted so far that i feel is greater than rand to be scum

This is an example of what gob thinks is scum indicative -- giving a reason that isn't actually a reason.

i think dunnstral's opening was very easy to hop on and you did so without actually digging into what was alignment indicative about it

you just kinda shouted "gross" and voted dunn which feels a little performative and not like you actually care about what dunn's alignment is or showing other people what dunn's alignment might be

Using pregame replacement spec is scummy, full stop.

can you elucidate why you think this is something more likely to come from a red role pm rather than a green role pm?

"using pregame replacement spec is scummy" is actually something that requires some elaboration and I'd like to see some depth of thought here because it looked like to me dunnstral was trying to drive the game forward, and while I think he could've entered the game with that analysis as scum there is nothing that indicates to me that was more likely to be the case

Town need to

not

eliminate people from consideration. I read that post (and any inquiry along those lines) as "here are a couple people we really don't need to pay attention to". Or if you flip it along the lines of replacement being likely scum who didn't want to be, then the same inquiry yields people who get more attention than necessary. I see both approaches to be anti-town. Being open minded is town's biggest weapon. Too closed minded and you ignore edge cases that end up losing games.

[davesaz]

@pisskop Thanks for noticing. I can't promise to drive town, my RL is so highly variable that the time may just not be there. We're just lucky that this week's noon meeting is one that my name hasn't been mentioned so I haven't had to panic search for the unmute button this hour.

[davesaz]

Read 178.

What? That doesn't explain your Dann scumread at all

At the point in time I voted Dann

the only "reason" that Dann had given for voting me was "greater than rand scum" with no further explanation.

[davesaz]

davesaz what are you talking about with what gob thinks? Why bring up gob at all?

Someone already asked this, and I answered in a pedit -- isolated here for clarity.

pedit: To illustrate a point. The point being that "sorting" me (and others) by saying I commented in a RVS vote that wasn't RVS is laughable at best.

[davesaz]

maybe add parens to that, like this: (that wasn't RVS)

[davesaz]

Also, a little bit, to find out who asked me why I brought up what gob thinks.

[davesaz]

Read 178.

What? That doesn't explain your Dann scumread at all

At the point in time I voted Dann

the only "reason" that Dann had given for voting me was "greater than rand scum" with no further explanation.

So let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly

You scumread Dann because he voted for you without further explanation. Then in 178 you say that Gob "seems to think" that doing this is scummy. You obviously think it's scummy too so why did you phrase it this way? If you think Dann is scummy for this then why did you write 172 and 178 in a way that makes it seem like gob thinks its scummy and you don't really agree with him?

You've never seen someone use sarcasm in written communication?

[davesaz]

Dann improved since. Gob is doing essentially nothing, and imo aggressively so.

[davesaz]

And why are you trying to say im not paying attention?

I might not have replied to this.
I made a post where I called out something that I think was explicitly scummy.
This is

not

a "RVS post with an explanation". You would know this, if you were paying attention and actually reading.
I'm not just "trying" to say it. I'm flat out saying you did not read for content.

[davesaz]

I do something that isn't scummy.
Gob says it's scummy.
Dann does basically the same thing.
I say what Dann did is scummy because it's just like what

gob said was scummy coming from me

.

[davesaz]

ebwop -- Dann does basically the same thing that gob (incorrectly) accused me of doing.

[davesaz]

Sorry I'm not trying to be difficult. That's actually me trying to be utterly open about what I'm trying to say.
I haven't said it this game yet, I'm an old guy who tends to virtually whack people I think are doing unproductive/bad things. In this case gob and to a lesser extent Dann, though I must admit it is a lot more subtle than voting someone for intentionally pagetopping.

I haven't decided who I like for the next vote.

[davesaz]

I'd kinda like more than 225 posts in the game before doing really serious analysis.
Trying to get someone, anyone, to react to it in any way other than not understanding tbh.

[davesaz]

6 players with 10 or fewer posts is not enough to go on. It's a target rich environment, but not the right kind of targets.

[davesaz]

He has done nothing to suggest he had a genuine read

I think this comment is about Drew? I snipped it to what I think.

[davesaz]

VOTE: gob
Stuff this where it won't get any sun.

[davesaz]

In other news, the Diamondbacks aren't getting blown out last I heard, so I'm gonna watch the game for a while.

[davesaz]

Well that went just great. The dbacks basically didn't do anything, and neither did the thread.

[davesaz]

VOTE: gob
Stuff this where it won't get any sun.

So do you think gob is lying about his claim or what?

It's a response to a specific post by gob. You're welcome to try to figure out why I posted it. If you can't then I can explain further, but it will reduce the impact to do so.

[davesaz]

I started a vote for pagetopping and then realized it's the mod posting a vc.

[davesaz]

I need solid townreads this game, much more solid than typical for me^*. They need to be my reads, not merely consensus. Black's approach looks towny. I'd be hard pressed to remember anyone else who has even made an impression, though a big part of that has to do with RL distractions so I don't mean any offense by it.

^*A bit of self meta that should be verifiable by almost anyone who has played multiple games with me, I pretty much never lock anyone, especially in the case where a bunch of people say it's obv and I don't see it.

[davesaz]

I need solid townreads this game, much more solid than typical for me^*. They need to be my reads, not merely consensus. Black's approach looks towny. I'd be hard pressed to remember anyone else who has even made an impression, though a big part of that has to do with RL distractions so I don't mean any offense by it.

^*A bit of self meta that should be verifiable by almost anyone who has played multiple games with me, I pretty much never lock anyone, especially in the case where a bunch of people say it's obv and I don't see it.

Ok. Think about this. Roden's probably froze and scum are hoping for a distraction.

Scumreads are good, got any townreads?

[davesaz]

I don't see Roden's posts as being very AI. I guess that means I'd have to look elsewhere to understand the frozen take.

[davesaz]

I guess you're talking mostly about 138 if I remembered the post number correctly.

I can see how reading that from a point of view that it accurately conveys Roden's mindset (to put this another way, reading it as not containing any errors in explaining what Roden's thinking) would indicate that it is at least somewhat made up. The qualities expressed in the post (arguing to be "right" instead of to make a case) would not be AI at best and using them to townread people is suspect. I have doubts that it's as simple as this, but a townie should clear it up if what was posted doesn't express it right.

pedit: since someone else has brought it up, yes I lean toward absent over frozen

[davesaz]

im also here, apologies for my absence

When you get a chance look at 189. Rebuttal is welcome. Others are also invited to check it out.

[davesaz]

are you scum reading dunnstral davesaz

The most accurate response is that I'm not townreading him. I'm curious why this is so important to you.

[davesaz]

When you get a chance look at 189. Rebuttal is welcome. Others are also invited to check it out.

Oh, well if nothing else you're conflating anti-town with scummy. Even if what Dunn did was anti-town that doesn't mean it was malicious rather than misguided.

It also assumes as an inherent premise that Dunn's analysis was completely wrong-- I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that he was implying "we should not consider these people as targets AT ALL", and a smaller stretch to say that maybe we shouldn't focus on them for now, but if he was implying the latter then it's only anti-town if he's not correct.

I don't know that the distinction is relevant for a 1st post, with regard to whether it should be pushed as a lead. I would (and did) push for the purpose of finding out which it is, and who cares about it and how. I'm not even sure how to use the results. I got a lot more on other people than I did on Dunn.

[davesaz]

are you scum reading dunnstral davesaz

The most accurate response is that I'm not townreading him. I'm curious why this is so important to you.

i'm not sure why you care about dunnstral's anti-town maybe-scummy entrance if you weren't scum reading him

At the time I cared about it because it was the only thing to care about.
Currently I'm interested in others correctly interpreting the event as coming from town me. What I need the most is for me to be able to townread people. Town kinda needs that too.

[davesaz]

I find it easiest to form accurate town reads on people who aren't pushing me, in part due to the "how dare you think that perfectly logical approach is scummy" bias, and in part due to an accumulated feeling over many years that I draw scumreads like excrement draws flies and other people are ignored while either saying nothing at all or being explicitly manipulative.

[davesaz]

I don't mind the Roden wagon at all but kinda feels useless to wagon there until a replacement comes in

Oh good, I don't need to be the first one to say this. Lurker/flake pushes give me hives, and the low percentage that turn out to be scum means that sensation is right more than wrong.

[davesaz]

I think Dannflor can join the town pile, at least on a preliminary basis. The recent pages feel a lot more like trying to figure things out than previous.

It appears gob has either gotten busy or isn't interested in sparring.
UNVOTE:

I see what you mean about pisskop.
VOTE: pisskop

[davesaz]

Thoughts on Drew compared to pisskop?

[davesaz]

Crazy how my two biggest townreads are the two most popular wagon candidates.

Who's the other btw

[davesaz]

How are they stronger town than those who are actively working to discover alignments and solve the game?

[davesaz]

What's weird is to TR someone for the actions they

don't

take in a game.

Pedit: for what you haven't done.

[davesaz]

I haven't a clue how to interpret anything gob posts.

[davesaz]

I think youre picking at other people's play to expose weakness, not to solve the game

I didn't get that feeling in Black's interactions with me.

[davesaz]

It's amazing what a little mini-wagon can do. I liked pisskop's response.
UNVOTE:

Who to light a fire under next? Drew or Titus maybe?

[davesaz]

What about shaddowez? Why not mention them

didn't come to mind

[davesaz]

Well you can start by giving me what I ask for, which is your emotions.

You don't think anger is emotion?

[davesaz]

Well you can start by giving me what I ask for, which is your emotions.

You don't think anger is emotion?

You were angry? Lol, dude relax its just a game

I'm curious what you were thinking you'd see btw. Like "show emotion" is a really bizarre thing to say.

[davesaz]

Dave voted for you because he wanted to fight or something

literally because gob asked for emotion.

[davesaz]

Maybe he thinks town have fun and if you're not clowning around then you're not fun and thus not town? But that ignores the concept that some people's idea of fun is to be serious.

[davesaz]

Anyone else down to vote off Crescent for these super long posts?

I am never gonna read that much, no lie.

I'd much sooner vote you for being purposely obtuse

There's a word where the social usage does not at all line up with the dictionary meaning.

An obtuse angle is a wide angle. A wide angle view on the game, considering everyone and everything, is more towny than not.
Whether gob's approach to the game is wide angle is not something I can evaluate easily.

[davesaz]

Titus seems scared...??

This would be an interesting take if true. References?

[davesaz]

That actually made it into the dictionary? Occupational hazard of being in one's 60's and having a pretty good memory.

[davesaz]

Votecount 1.5

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2023-11-09 14:36:08).

Votecount

Black (2)

- Doctor Drew, pisskop

pisskop (2)

- Dannflor, Black

Titus (2)

- shaddowez, Roden

Doctor Drew (1)

- Crescent

gob (1)

- davesaz

Roden (1)

- Titus

shaddowez (1)

- gob

Something_Smart (1)

- Dunnstral

Not Voting (2)

- Alisae, Something_Smart

Flavour

I'm not voting gob -- had unvoted, voted pisskop, and unvoted again before this count.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Titus

I like this

It feels like Titus voted Roden and then disappeared. I didn't like the implication that Roden was "Frozen" as I took that to mean that Roden was having trouble with what to say when in reality it seemed Roden was just away from the game.

These 2 posts feel like a sheep and then realizing it will look better with at least a token reason.

[davesaz]

On top of that, if my count was right Dunnstral took Titus to 4 seemingly not noticing that she had just reappeared, and 444 was even after Titus posted.

[davesaz]

I think Alisae has too many TRs for only 20 pages, and some of them might be people I'd say have too little content to read at all.

[davesaz]

I think Alisae has too many TRs for only 20 pages, and some of them might be people I'd say have too little content to read at all.

town but wtf kind of take is this???????

I had to go back and re-read your list. Drew for example, IMO hasn't really said anything that's AI.

[davesaz]

did you know that finding villagers is easier than finding mafia?

I find lean towns easier than lean scum, but true townreads are extremely hard for me.

[davesaz]

Dave bro do u wanna say ur shaddowez stance or whaaaaaaat

I have a soft spot for "missing while RL" situations which might be acting as a block on properly reading what is posted.
Would have to review it to see.

[davesaz]

Here are the thoughts I had last night when looking through Shadow's iso

27 could be a signal to the scum team if he's the traitor and they didn't choose to recruit him

185 doesn't go anywhere and doesn't even feel like a real thought

I don't really like how he called my 124 shade in 190. Asking if I think Titus is scummy for anything specific feels like a busywork thought considering later on he claims he scumreads her for certain things she was doing around this time, which indicates to me that he should have already been at least slightly suspicious of her when he wrote this. He didn't seem too interested in my response either. Unrelatedly, his comment to gob here feels hedgy wrt Roden

191 and 195 feel sorta like an attempt to shade the claimed Cop to position himself to eventually vote there if need be

237 feels a little pedantic and doesn't go anywhere, and I think it's weird how shadow doesn't offer any thought about Crescent's alignment despite thinking she tried to make a case out of something that didn't happen

279 is super hedgy

436 I talked about last night but I think his posturing around Alisae is slimy and then the Titus stance feels very convenient considering she got two votes right before this post

I don't like how Dunn responded to 443 but Shadow didn't seem interested in the response. This is pretty common, shadow just asking questions to ask them. It just seems like he's trying to look like he's solving

449 is a misinterpretation of what Gob said but it reads as being self-conscious about being voted for

I don't really see it, at various points. The reasons given in #27, #191, #195 are poor. I will almost never consider a post like #27 to be AI. When I see someone claim something like Cop right away for no reason, it's almost always a VT dicking around, or scum dicking around. I don't see being willing to probe his way being scum-slanted. #237 could have been stronger, but unlike #231, it was a response to a part of the post that actually mattered. Immediately questioning Dunn for an out of nowhere Titus vote immediately after saying Titus looks scummy is a decent look, and was quickly followed by questioning Gob for a reason for voting him. #449 isn't bad at all. Gob has never given a legitimate reason for voting Shadow, and had sat there since 336. Shadow asking him to give an actual reason feels like a real question instead of a subconscious outburst.

#436 is the post here that sits in my "do not like" pile. The post really doesn't exist but to say "I'm busy", and to lay possible groundwork for voting off an inactive.

I agree he feels hedgy and noncommittal, but I disagree with almost every other point you made. Reading his ISO does not give me a strong read on him in either direction.

I think I'm pretty much in between Black and Crescent on these points, on average. If I filter out "shaddow isn't

really

here" thinking from those posts, the parts that resonate as possible scum are asking questions to look like asking but apparently not caring what the answers are (the Dunnstral question), and selectively commenting on some things while paying little attention to other very similar things happening at almost the same time (such as difference in approach to Titus and Alisae, especially when he's claiming to be busy himself).

[davesaz]

whats going on people

You said Shaddow is possible scum. Are you ever going to say why?

[davesaz]

<snip>

Not liking Roden here.

I wasn't either until this.....Roden's interactions with pisskop felt strange, but not forced. As I was reading my initial thought was "I don't like this", then it gets kinda dropped and gamestate changed. He also disappeared, but I did today too so I have not stones to throw.
<snip>

Why does gob's very brief post change your thought on Roden?

[davesaz]

whats going on people

You said Shaddow is possible scum. Are you ever going to say why?

Already did.

I'm not seeing anything I'd interpret as a why. Care to point it out?
I have a very hard time understanding you, and that makes you very hard for me to read. If you're town it's rather important for you that I can TR you.

[davesaz]

Dave bro do u wanna say ur shaddowez stance or whaaaaaaat

I have a soft spot for "missing while RL" situations which might be acting as a block on properly reading what is posted.
Would have to review it to see.

And this stops u from having a read there, how?

I don't think what I said was that hard to understand. I had been discounting / ignoring the slot because that's what I do when it seems someone is absent for RL reasons. I ignored your slot too, until you showed up.

That said, read my next post after the one you quoted. I said I would re-read shaddow taking off the filter.

[davesaz]

I've been treating Roden the same way btw.

[davesaz]

Drew can u vote shaddowez

I disapprove of the possibility that we may get an E-1 and possible hammer while shaddow isn't here to claim. (he's vla every weekend, right?)

[davesaz]

NGL I read that as Dave.

[davesaz]

What's Swiss?

[davesaz]

but you are really making an effort to let everyone know that Shadow isn't free right now, seems excessive.

I'd do the same for anyone, in a game that is known to have at least 2 TPRs.

[davesaz]

If shaddowez is scum I doubt pisskop would do this as a partner.

I can see town pisskop trying to go after the drivers of the wagon regardless of shaddow's flip, if he isn't sold on shaddow being scum. I do that myself quite a lot.

I feel like Crescent's take on pisskop lacks doubt on pisskop's alignment. I feel like I'd want to see if there was any prior indication that Crescent had thoughts on pisskop.

[davesaz]

Pressure without force is meaningless.

Not sure what you mean by this.

[davesaz]

Shaddow Roden Dunn? Dunn might be beard though. We don't really get along sometimes.

There's only a definite third if the traitor got recruited. Why are you assuming a team of three here?

Isn't an unrecruited traitor still mafia aligned? Three still makes sense.

I guess that's true since they'd still be pushing for town mislims. I was thinking more along the lines of forming associations since there's no communication without the recruit.
[/quote]
There can be forward associations from traitor to scum, but not vice versa. For unrecruited traitor, what I look for is two or more joke/not serious posts saying X is scum with no reason and no followup.

[davesaz]

I feel like I'd want to see if there was any prior indication that Crescent had thoughts on pisskop.

It isn't a new thought, and it seems to be grounded in accurate observations.

[davesaz]

You're triggering my tendency to SR people who say they have a team solve d1.

[davesaz]

You're triggering my tendency to SR people who say they have a team solve d1.

This doesnt seem like too useful of a post. It is just light shading Titus and nothing more.

A decent percentage of what I post is notes to myself.

[davesaz]

I don't townread Titus but think we're better off keeping her for now.

When I said on Saturday that I didn't want an E-1 then, that was much more about the timing than the wagon itself. I'd be ok with limming shaddow lacking a reason not to.

Black's votehopping makes me question if I'm TRing her too strongly, but she'd still be a lean town at worst.

Reminding myself that just because it juices like a beetle doesn't mean it's scum. (several candidates for that one, too many to pick)

I think Alisae and Crescent are slightly on the town side of center, after falling back a bit due to thinking maybe one or both was trying to manipulate. They're still both in the zone where I'd probably want someone else to flip first.

If all that sounds a little vague it's partly because it's dinner time and partly because the last 12ish hours have left me with tennis neck.

[davesaz]

Intent

[davesaz]

Got any reads you want to share?

[davesaz]

I don't like how the game goes silent. Could just be synchronicity but this is a lot of people to share the same activity pattern.

[davesaz]

I thought about bringing this up and had decided not to, but since it has come up already...
Agree technically there could be a scum rolecop but I think it's one of the least likely possibilities. The informed only knows which roles are in game, not who has the roles, so there is some potential utility for scum. I would guess that other choices might be higher priority.

[davesaz]

Wow, much to absorb both in the flips and in the pages since.
I'm talking on meetings so can't do it right now. Hopefully in a few hours.

[davesaz]

2. Im guessing we know reasonably well which was a vig shot and dont need to talk about that

Why does this start with the number 2?

I don't think I agree that it's obvious which kill is which, but I do agree that talking about it is unnecessary at best and could be damaging.

[davesaz]

I can't help feeling that gob has been trying to bait attention from the cop, if there is one. I said already that I flat don't understand his play here, at all.

[davesaz]

What other purpose does fakeclaiming cop have?

[davesaz]

Found?

[davesaz]

Yeah I noticed that too.

[davesaz]

Alisa can you give us some reasons for the stuff you're so glibly posting?

[davesaz]

even though he claimed cop i still think gob is scummy

How much have you read?

[davesaz]

Whoever was complaining about me fakeclaiming earlier is probably mafia btw. That is the classic mafia line.

how did you come to believe that saying fakeclaiming sucks is so scummy

It's your posts. They are very AtE-lite. it's just blanket complaining but doesnt progress the game forward or reveal your thoughts on any of the player's alignments.

However, you seem to be doing that a lot so maybe thats just how you play.

but you said it’s a “classic” mafia line. also you identified it as a scummy behavior even before recalling that i was the one who made it. are you now saying that it’s only scummy because of the way i did it?

Yea. It is the classic line and scummy coming from most people. But i could be wrong is what im saying. We'll see if I am.

For my play style, I pretty much require all town to be truthful. If there is a choice between lying and saying nothing, I'm for saying nothing all the time.
There are a few limited and targeted exceptions, very few.

[davesaz]

Wouldn't it be better to have a play style that can function even if townies lie?

With a clear cut distinction between those who are lying because they have to and those who aren't because they don't need to, I find it much easier to sort.
I find that lies from townies often result in mislims and bad action choices.
Town lies also provide scum a place to hide at times.

[davesaz]

I could be wrong but I think that is the most words in any gob post this game.

I don't like Alisae's lack of significant content.

[davesaz]

I didn't have a TR on Drew, and Psyche hasn't improved it.

[davesaz]

Oh, and the bird pic made me dizzy.

[davesaz]

Maybe speak your mind and explain what that's supposed to mean

Biggest problem this game is that too few people are explaining.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Alisae can be one of the people who starts posting complete thoughts instead of one liners.

[davesaz]

Dannflor
Black (low confidence read)

Alisae (yes I'm grumpy. I detected a slight but noticeable change so maybe it worked)
gob

Roden
Taly (vague memory of being good at rehabilitating a slot, pisskop was trending a bit lower)
Crescent (posting gave me a good impression but a lot of it would be easy to fake. very likely to be replaced)

Psyche
Something_Smart (has mostly escaped my attention, and it's pretty rare to get to middle of d2 and not remember much of what a player has done)

VOTE: Something_Smart

[davesaz]

3 days 13 hours, let's not leave the *wagon* too late.

[davesaz]

What does it mean to have someone in your highest tier who's low confidence? I thought the high tiers usually meant high confidence?

Strength of read and confidence can be different. Another way to put the same info is, I think Black is town but if I'm wrong that's one of the more likely places to be wrong.

[davesaz]

If you're town it's rather important for you that I can TR you.

this was originally directed toward gob, but goes for everyone.

[davesaz]

i really don't like 841 especially the first line, it feels like davesaz didn't want to actually say anything content wise but felt compelled to say *something* of seeming substance

the point of the post was to say I had meetings to attend.

i don't like 861 because A. I think saying it's not obvious which kill was which feels like feigning ignorance in order to look uninformed whereas I think a townie is just going to make certain assumptions and B. states the obvious

Ok, straight up if I were the vig I would have killed Dunn.

862 comments on gob because I feel like dave feels like he should but doesn't actually SAY anything about Gob

idk gob, you wanna talk about fence sitty?

When you're in a game with PRs and you can't decide whether someone is the PR they're claiming or scum trying to find the PR they're claiming, what do

you

do?
This is what

I

do in this situation.

[davesaz]

anyway I'd kill davesaz

very bad idea. I'll probably die eventually without your help.

[davesaz]

How about Something_Smart?

[davesaz]

Dave you have been pretty quiet wrt Roden. What are your thoughts on his slot?

As far as I can tell, I haven't had thoughts about him specifically. I disliked it when someone pushed him because that push felt fake.

[davesaz]

Unless gob is GF or ascetic informed, why would he bait the cop?

Actually mafia have reason to try to draw out the cop if they didn't choose ascetic informed.
If they did choose it and town didn't roll it, then they can fakeclaim it with impunity because they know there won't be a counter claim.

I still have gob as pretty much a null enigma. I'm unwilling to just ignore the fake(?) claim like so many have appeared to.

[davesaz]

I have a drive home and a Broncos game to watch. It will be going on 5 hours before I'm back.
Just preempting any thoughts that I'm ducking the chance to live stream.

Pedit: didn't I just say no, I don't have such thoughts? And now I won't for several hours...

[davesaz]

I don't like being accused of being "actively scummy" and would argue that I'm being as transparently town as I'm able, but can understand where it could come from. I have come to expect people to have those thoughts.

[davesaz]

Also think based the first post of these two, dave should have switched to voting gob

I would never seriously push someone I think (at that point in time) could be a cop.

[davesaz]

And I would not let on that I think that either, defeats the whole purpose of crumbs/softs.

Pedit: oh good, vc incoming.

[davesaz]

While we wait.

I commonly say that I don't know how to read Gamma because I get it wrong more often than not.
A lot of the time it's a scumread for saying things that don't seem to make sense.
This game it's noticeable that most of what Gamma says does kinda make sense.
Therefore if I'm correct in the meta impression, it's an indicator that Gamma is scum here.

[davesaz]

My next move, if I have time before needing to do more work, is to mesh that with what I thought about whomever she replaced.

[davesaz]

Time is getting short.
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

E-1

[davesaz]

The unintended thing about the way I was softing is that it's equally useful for vig and vengeful, which along with bodyguard need a sharp distinction between town and scum in order to target.

[davesaz]

I once got yelled at for not saving someone who thought they were "obvtown" as a 1-shot BG, and my response was you need to convince me you're town not just assume I'm going to agree with consensus. Observe the way I approached Alisae this game -- the explanation I asked for would have been that proof, and not giving it could have ended in a non-save.

[davesaz]

I wanted to save it for a night after massclaim to protect the vig. There were never any clues I could use, though I did mention in the dead thread that I considered protecting Dannflor. That would have turned out to be correct but I wonder if Alisae would have come up with the right solve if that had happened.