Open 887: Coalition of Frogs (Game Over)
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i feel as though some burden of many years has been lifted, but i can't quite put my finger on it.In post 11, Hero at Heart wrote: hello! how u doin?
also jet lag-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I cannot remember how well I am capable of reading Ari or Datisi, especially Ari. I like her mala take as town for her a fair amount but it's probably not something I should actually be putting weight in?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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THS could be scum. and well hero could too i'm pretty bad at this gameIn post 65, Aristeia wrote: unfortunate - i was actually thinking THS and hero make a cute scum team together-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i feel like my day 1 reads are probably historically <rand and then they get better over time. which is really just excellent for this setup.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i agree with aristeia that hero's confidence feels fake but i don't think that's scummy when hero is a self-proclaimed alt who is trying to mix up playstyle. Or at least by default I don't think it has to be scummy. I kind of feel like hero is just townie as of page 4 with the one caveat being the Veil of Altness.
This is a really fascinating line. It's like, almost lampshading the fact that he is saying "well, i was never scumreading implosion" in a post about how it's pretty townie of him to immediately call me scum (unless i'm misinterpreting). But I think it is +town just for the brazenness of a seemingly relatively new player being like "nah i'm really not playing how scum would be playing in this setup lol" in this way.In post 103, TheHoldSteady wrote: ehh, a joke is a joke. i don't have any read on implosion at all. what is the best mo for scum in this phase? if you need one scum in the coalition you want to gain enough people’s trust. picking a player i don’t know out of the blue and being like "they’re scum” right out of the gate doesn’t really fit the MO of the setup.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i do not like this post. but also i absolutely turbo tunneled doctor drew in the one game we played together and we were both town.In post 127, Doctor Drew wrote: HEAL: Hero
This could be TvT between them and THS, but Hero has an energy to their posts(almost feels like how I post when I want to effort) that says town more than THS.
THS almost feels like they are trying to get Hero in a gotcha moment.
i probably will at some point. are you someone who's played with me much?In post 134, Hero at Heart wrote: this might sound really silly but:
@drew, merlyn, kittens, implo - feel free to townspew yourself if you are town-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think THS is very town. his posting on the whole has a certain verve to it that feels like there's real opinionatedness and like, the right motivation behind it. Softly think bella is town.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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In post 148, Doctor Drew wrote:Also, what is the issue you have with my post?
It feels overexplainy in the way of scum who feels the need to appear justified rather than town who actually has reasons behind what they're doing. Like, "this could be TvT but maybe this one feels more townie and the other one feels like it's a gotcha" immediately after a Heal feels like scum who feels like they need to add people to their coalition and that each person they add needs to be accompanied by a blurb explaining it. Sort of ditto with 141 but that one doesn't ping me in the same way for whatever reason. this is probably a bad explanation.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i agree with the seeming consensus that hero is town.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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ftr here is the game where i erroneously scumread you (you replaced out and were replaced by enchant, who i proceeded to tunnel even harder and get mislimmed and then effectively get cleared for how hard i mislimmed them >_>)-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Merlyn seems like a good scum candidate. 140 saying she's already townspewing when she has yet to give a single read is not great.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I don't even feel like that's a play that "good" scum is likely to make. It's the kind of thing that probably a lot of good scum would avoid because it's practically likely to be scumread by a good swathe of people.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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this is just a weird take. 1, mafia is a game that is fundamentally built on a pile of assumptions. 2, I don't need to defer to someone else's read just because they've played with the person before. And most importantly 3, no, that's not what I'm doing at all, I'm making a reasoned counterargument to Merlyn's reasoning; she said that THS is a good scum player so we shouldn't townread him too easily and I gave the counterargument that my reason for townreading him should still apply even if he's a good scum player. It's also kind of heinous in isolation to say i'm "poo poo-ing" Merlyn's read just because I'm disagreeing with it and she's played with him before. Like, heck, i'm not allowed to disagree with someone???In post 162, Doctor Drew wrote:
Are you making the mistake of assuming how a player, especially one that you are not familiar with, would play under a certain alignment?In post 161, implosion wrote: I don't even feel like that's a play that "good" scum is likely to make. It's the kind of thing that probably a lot of good scum would avoid because it's practically likely to be scumread by a good swathe of people.
Especially when there is another player, Merlyn in this case, has first hand experience with THS as scum......and you are seemingly poo poo-ing their read?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i'm just going to disengage from the line with Drew. although maybe i won't completely since hero says they want to see how it develops lol but I feel like it's almost certainly one of those things that is practically not going to be actually useful for sorting compared to how much it'd bog down the thread. I think it's probably very likely that Drew and I just sort of parse arguments in incompatible ways.
It feels reminiscent of similar things I've seen other people do sometimes of like "hey everyone name your top scumread please!" and i feel like usually when people suggest such a thing they get pushback from everyone because no one really cares to follow orders. I don't think it really means much for THS's alignment (though see later in this post)In post 169, Hero at Heart wrote:
this posts feels really off, but not even in a scummy way. it feels like THS has to have zero gamestate awarenessbto make this post when multiple other people have already expressed their preferred coalition and he hasn't.In post 142, TheHoldSteady wrote: We've still got time but let's get some organization to our approach. I'd like to challenge everyone, by Friday, to come up with 2-3 people you absolutely want in your coalition, and 2-3 people you don't.
i doubt this is scum indicative, but i am noting it bc it's weird and i would like to have people's thoughts on this, if they have any thoughts.
Yeah I did miss that, it dampens how much I find that post town significantly.In post 171, Hero at Heart wrote: i think you misinterpreted it because he was replying to me saying it was scummy to make that joke.
does that change your read of him?
In post 171, Hero at Heart wrote: i am curious about that, could you please expand more on it?
104, 139 are probably the best examples. In the context of the rest of his posting I think 142 also might even be town-indicative. Part of it is that he has a view/approach to the game he's espousing that feels consistent and like something he's thought about rather than just coming up with something, but the bigger part is the way he's handling suspicion on himself. There's a degree of assuredness in both of those posts that reads as genuine to me.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i feel like a lot of this game is going into the weeds remarkably quicklyIn post 185, TheHoldSteady wrote: I'm admittedly having trouble getting out of the weeds here. But I have nothing to be untruthful about-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I don't think this is a fair characterization. It's not that you "don't have a set of reads", it's that you hadn't given any at all, in conjunction with you saying that you'd already been townspewing which, no, does not mean "posting literally anything as town".In post 189, Merlyn wrote: it's scummy that I don't have a set of reads by pg 6 (by page 6!?),
I do agree there isn't much of a real rush. But I feel like there's been lots of quite useful content so far. I don't really agree with THS's take that scum are necessarily proactive in this setup; yeah, they need to get in the coalition, and actually the point could have some truth to it if people are playing in such a way that the scumfeelrushed. But I think it's entirely possible for scum to play under the radar, especially if they think their scumbuddy is going to get in to the coalition.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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The way a game gets going is by people giving reads. My scumread on you, itself, is like, a page 6 read. It's not like it's set in stone (in fact I think 202 is mildly town). It's not like it was particularly strong. Honestly, I don't know for certain if "has posted a bunch without giving reads before page 6" in isolation is meaningfully an indicator of scum, but I think it's likely to be and is worth considering as one because it pushes people to give stances that can be further read into.In post 202, Merlyn wrote:
I was kind of going for humor there when I said bc I thought it was a question that deserved a flippant answer. Like, it's not a serious thing to ask a bunch of folks to townspew like it's something someone can come in on the next post and go, "oh! Got it, here's my townspewing".In post 197, implosion wrote:
I don't think this is a fair characterization. It's not that you "don't have a set of reads", it's that you hadn't given any at all, in conjunction with you saying that you'd already been townspewing which, no, does not mean "posting literally anything as town".In post 189, Merlyn wrote: it's scummy that I don't have a set of reads by pg 6 (by page 6!?),
I do agree there isn't much of a real rush. But I feel like there's been lots of quite useful content so far. I don't really agree with THS's take that scum are necessarily proactive in this setup; yeah, they need to get in the coalition, and actually the point could have some truth to it if people are playing in such a way that the scumfeelrushed. But I think it's entirely possible for scum to play under the radar, especially if they think their scumbuddy is going to get in to the coalition.
I'm going to get really nitpicky on this idea that it's scummy that I hadn't given any reads. I posted as soon as I saw the game was open. When you posted 156, I had been playing in the game for 29 hours. I also slept and went to work twice in those 29 hours. So, was it really dubious that I hadn't formed or posted any reads yet? Am I really the first player you've met who decided to take more than 29 hours to figure out what they think? Or am I right to think it's odd that it's even being remarked upon?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Why specifically me and why do you want to talk to specifically Drew about Merlyn? I guess your play so far feels very broad-strokes like I remember your town game feeling in terms of how you're interacting with the game but I don't know if I've played with you as scum.
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think this is town ari much more often than not. I have horribly misread her in the past but I think the fervency/exact way in which she's arguing to not be on the coalition is really high-risk for scum, because she's essentially advocating to not be in the coalition and also is sort of acting like she's fine with a coalition she doesn't have much control over. It could theoretically make sense if she's scum with like, hero or datisi maybe.
I don't really understand where Datisi-town is coming from in popular opinion; merlyn's reason seems kind of flat and 99% is uh, kind of a whoa there amount of confidence to have in a d1 townread on a very renowned scum player, to the point where it gives me some pause on hero. I don't know if I agree exactly with Ari's concern about hero's confidence but I do want to look more closely at hero's early stuff that I and others were townreading. Most of datisi's posts feel inscrutable to me in terms of his alignment.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Ari, you said in the other two games you played you didn't want to be in the coalition but wound up in it anyway - why was that? Did they have an arc of what's happening here -> people started townreading you for how you were acting around the coalition (or other stuff) -> people asked you to be in it?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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this is actually entirely fair of a take if you haven't played with datisi much, I think i probably used to feel this way about his playIn post 327, Hero at Heart wrote: you know that when someone is town, they just can't help but towntell sometimes? like what merlyn claimed to have done, except with datisi he HAS been actually towntelling all game. i can't point you to a specific post because every post he makes is a towntell?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i looked a bit at hero's early game iso again and i'm a little too tired to feel like i'm really piercing the veil. It does feel somewhat town still but I don't think it's like ironclad, I probably still want hero in coalition and I do like 327/328-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think there's a decent explanation here in a hero-town world where the 99% is kind of fake because hero did say they were trying to turn off their tryhard brain to make that post. like i mentioned earlier at one point the veil of alt-ness is annoying, especially since it's going to change how they're playing even if you know who they areIn post 331, Aristeia wrote: I'm sorry your 99% datisi is town read sounds extremely fake to me and considering i know who you are it just makes me suspect you even more-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I called merlyn's reason for townreading Datisi flat but I don't mean for that to imply that I think it's scummy on Merlyn's end. I think it's a reasonable response for merlyn-town to have to Datisi's push-
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had a very blah day yesterday. will be catching up soon-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Hero, did you pick this coalition because you saw Datisi suggest it or did you independently pick the same 5 people?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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This is a sentiment that I don't understand. Why do you want to avoid a specific combination of two people in the coalition? Isn't that... not how a coalition works? Are you just trying to compromise? Doesn't asking for a compromise not make any sense if one of the people you distrust is the one making the decision of who to sub out for who?In post 390, Merlyn wrote: I would support you or ari, but not both. Sub out drew or myself for yourself or for ari and I will go along with this.
The way hero is playing the game right now is very town and also annoying. I kind of hate the attitude of "well if this is wrong then woe is me, i'll just exit stage left". No, if this coalition goes through and is wrong then you don't get to magically shirk responsibility if you're town, you have to play the rest of the game.
I don't feel particularly confident in this coalition. I guess I feel also annoyed at the This Coalition Is Unilaterally Final thing. I like THS (i'll talk about the scum case on him in a bit but it seems like hero is particularly intransigent on him). I feel like Malakittens feels town from what posting she has and is a viable member of the coalition if she winds up showing up to the game more, which I'd theoretically like to give her a chance to do even if she doesn't get added to the coalition because, well, I don't feel as gung-ho as Hero does.
I don't really understand why Ari is just going along with a coalition that it seems like she thinks has decent odds of failing (given that she has expressed a townread on Hero but not on Datisi) after talking about how she's annoyed that she always gets put on failing coalitions as town.
I also don't really buy Hero's datisi-town case, it just reminds me of reasons I have incorrectly townread Datisi in the distant past. I do lean town on Bella but not with high confidence and I like her reason for townreading Datisi somewhat more but it is also pretty intangible because I don't think I've ever really seen things from Datisi-scum that made me want to actively scumread him in early days in past games like she describes, though I definitely believe that someone could.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think I also just don't like the idea of "we need to lock in a coalition really soon". In particular I think the existence of uncertainty about who is going to be in the coalition is healthy because it will force scum to commit to stances in a way that will be useful to go back and read - like, if the proposed coalition is a/b/c/d/e and e is scum and a new coalition that is proposed is all-town, then even if we wind up going back to the coalition of a/b/c/d/e, the reactions of other players outside the coalition are probably telling once we have enough flips to have context that we might have been proposing an all-town coalition.
The only real reason to lock in soon in my mind is people's interest in the game petering out. Which I guess it seems like hero's essentially is-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think this point (and this whole post) is like, logically sound but I don't buy it as a reason to think THS is scum over town. I guess thinking of things motivationally, if THS is town, then he said he was going to be thinking about the game in a particular way and looking for particular things, and then he didn't do that. That's probably somewhat unlikely to happen but the game does move quickly sometimes and I don't think it's like, super unlikely. On the flip side, if THS is scum, then he said he was going to be thinking about the game in a particular way and looking for particular things, and then he didn't do that. That's also unlikely - if THS is scum (especially if he's a good scum player like Merlyn had claimed), it's not like he has any reason not to follow through with the thing he said he was going to do. You can think of it somewhat like Bayesian statistics. Essentially if THS is scum then he decides what he says entirely (because scum aren't beholden to actual reads or anything) and so it's not like it's particularly hard to do a thing after you say you're going to do that thing. So basically just because at first blush the behavior doesn't make sense as town, that doesn't mean that it makesIn post 371, Hero at Heart wrote: i think that in a vacuum, yes this is a townie post. the thing with THS this game is that when he started getting pressured hard, he took a sharp turn and started making a lot of "townie" posts about how he's looking at the game - except there's a huge discrepancy between what he claims to be doing and what he is actually doing.moresense as coming from scum.
With all that said I continue to think THS is acting townish - 374 as a post immediately after getting cased seems very nonchalant for scum in this setup (in particular if he is scum, I think that post would imply it's somewhat likely another scum is in the current coalition). I think his [post]401[/[post] is quite optimistic if he's town but also not a very likely post for scum to make. Or at least I think it's more evidence that if THS is scum, there is already scum in the coalition, which would make him a good candidate to add to the coalition if true.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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this is untrue lolIn post 437, Hero at Heart wrote: ari has set it up in such a way that i'm basically a guaranteed misyeet if the coalition fails
You/ari/THS are the only ones who aren't "potential scum candidates" for me right now (in that order but honestly maybe THS should be above ari because ari has burned me in the past).In post 438, Hero at Heart wrote: if THS is town then who are potential scum candidates for you?
In rough order from town to scum for the rest of the player list: Bella's play feels like what I remember of her town play and there are things I like, just not confident. Mala as I mentioned I lean town on but need more from. I think Datisi hasn't done anything to rule himself out as scum (which is notably the opposite of how Bella is claiming to read him). Drew like I mentioned I don't really trust myself to read well but I think he's viably scum. Merlyn is I guess the closest I have to a scumread, she's done things I've thought were townish but she's done multiple things that have pinged me significantly and I think her overall approach of wanting to slow the game down and pigeonhole it into being a game that should be viewed from that particular angle is scum a good amount of the time.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think the best way to explain why I don't like your read on datisi is to reference this game. I was SK but I was giving genuine reads iirc. Datisi was scum.
this post and like, this quote from me later on:
There was a certain degree of playing the game in a competent, relaxed manner that I was inclined to townread from him, and I feel like that's what you've been describing in this game. I have been able to successfully townread Datisi on d1 in at least one game I can think of since then (though he was on an alt) and I think it came down to him being more embroiled in the game state. His engagement in this game exists but there's not much substantial conflict. I liked the fact that he proposed a full coalition at the moment he did and the indication of a real thought process in 356 but I don't think it's outside of his scum range, as illustrated by the above quote from myself in 2021.I think my gut still says Datisi is town; the way he's interacting with the game right now, his general manner strikes me that way. The way he's talking about himself and his thought processes and his meta while still trying to push the game forward e.g. by voting me.
I don't have any particular reason to scumread him in this game, but I'm more looking for reasons to townread him and not seeing any right now. I think I can probably find reasons to scumread him if he's scum at some point but I don't have Bella's confidence that I'd have been able to do it by now.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Do you mean if the me/ari/hero/datisi/bella coalition is wrong? If so, why would you be limmed if that coalition went through and was wrong?In post 451, TheHoldSteady wrote: I think I'm just being paranoid. I'm probably limmed if this is wrong aren't I? Your coal is good.In post 453, Doctor Drew wrote: Damn, my reads are a mess right now.
Kinda feel good about THS, and weirdly worse about Merlyn.
Touché (i just gave the same reads on both THS and Merlyn last page)In post 455, Doctor Drew wrote: Your not just saying this because I just said this, right?
The question was I guess why you're willing to engage in coalition building in that way with someone you don't trust, where you aren't making the decision because you were essentially asking them to decide who to sub out for who. Like if you had the magic power that your suggestion had to be followed, and the person you're talking to was scum, they'd just use it to get a coalition that is equally good or better for them. Because in some sense the coalition is worthless unless it's all-town. This response does answer the question more or less though.In post 461, Merlyn wrote: I don't really understand your questions towards me. I'm offering a compromise bc if Hero accepts then there are more folks in the coalition that I tr. If THAT's not 'how a coalition works' then I don't know how a coalition works. I'd be the one 'making the decision who to sub out for who' bc I'm the one making the suggestion. I don't know if that phrasing makes any sense either way, though, bc I don't have the power to 'make the decision' for the coalition and neither does Hero. Even if he and I end up agreeing it doesn't mean three others will too. Re: distrust- his very acceptance or denial of the offer will also affect my read on him if this coalition fails.
I'm also not really understanding what you mean by 'this coalition is unilaterally final'. I don't think it's final, that's why I'm trying to suggest other options. If you don't agree with it, propose a different coalition?
The "unilaterally final" thing was referencing hero's attitude toward coalition building which was ostensibly "i have decided, kindly sheep me" at the time. It's interesting to hear specifically you asking me to propose a different coalition, given that you've constantly been talking about how it's townie to not be in a rush - the reason I haven't proposed a full specific coalition is because I've been nominally waiting to see if one of various useful possible events happen (e.g. Mala starts posting more and is actually obvious town, hero/others are willing to reconsider THS, etc).-
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It's disheartening to see Mala's only post in the last 48 hours to be contentless.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Yeah that's why it's disheartening.In post 487, Aristeia wrote:
I've seen her be completely contentless as town unfortunately so it's kind of a tossupIn post 483, implosion wrote: It's disheartening to see Mala's only post in the last 48 hours to be contentless.
I didn't realize it was a combined deadline but that makes sense, i'll probably give something more concrete tomorrow-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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At this moment you/me/hero/THS/bella.In post 503, Aristeia wrote: do you have a preferred coalition implosion?
it's very weird for you to say a thing that i literally already said like three times and then @ me to se if i agree.In post 505, Hero at Heart wrote: ok i am lowkey worried that THS suggesting a coalition identical to mine/ari's/datisi's but without sheeping us means he's town
which basically means my reads are terribad and there might be 1-2 scum in the coalition.
am i being overly paranoid, or just the right amount of paranoid? @implo, ari, THS
or rather i think it's possible that this coalition is all town but if it's all then then i think THS is also town
didn't he?In post 506, Aristeia wrote: datisi never really made a coalition before he quit playing-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Hero, how would you feel about replacing std or maybe bella with THS? I feel like the logic you gave is indicative of THS is town but is (as i'd said previously) strongly indicative that THS should be in the coalition because if it's already succeeding then adding him almost never hurts it-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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alas.
i do not like std's approve post. I guess it can come from town but it makes lots of sense from scum who's afraid that the winds could change with the fact that his reads like, conveniently happen to match up with the coalition that was already proposed and that his predecessor also liked. Like, just the sheer odds of those reads matching up is kind of low whereas scum can pick reads that are convenient and if he's in a failing coalition that has popular support and someone is talking about ousting him from the coalition then of course those are convenient reads for him to have.
I sort of want to throw up my hands and say it's just std/mala because that explains them jointly hammering the coalition when I was asking to sub in THS for probably STD. I like bella's previous page. I'm kind of irked at the coalition being hammered this way but i also probably could have been louder but i guess hindsight is 20/20. I think Drew saying he wants to start over is pretty townish in context.
VOTE: Save The Dragons-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Thoughts beyond this? I feel like I didn't have the best sense of where you were at before the coalition got hammered.In post 558, Aristeia wrote: we should vote out someone in the coalition first - voting outside of coalition is p bad-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Ari/hero scumteam would mean a lot of theater. I don't think the way the coalition came about particularly points to that; Datisi thought it was a good coalition, ari+hero were the first votes on the coalition and other people voted it up later, I don't think the way hero turned around their read on Ari is particularly s->s, etc.In post 576, TheHoldSteady wrote: Question for you all: Given the way the coalition came about, how viable do you think an Ari/Hero scumteam is?
Why is this your first thought that you wanted to ask about?
I backed off because of that game. And also because I wasn't really looking to pursue scumreads by nature of the setup. "I think there's a deep wolf" is sort of a moot thing to say by nature of this setup; in theory we collectively decided who we thought the 5 towniest people were and at least one of them is scum. So yeah.In post 578, Doctor Drew wrote: I can't help to remember how Implo and I clashed, then they backed off.....after referencing a previous game where they came after me when I was town (and they were town as well, I believe?).
At this point I think you're more likely town than not.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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In post 555, Malakittens wrote: shockerIn post 568, Save The Dragons wrote: what the hell
Would really love if people would play the game of mafia that we signed up for.In post 570, Bellaphant wrote: Ari,talk to me about hero?
Bella's is at least technically content (and I guess she said she'd be low-content, idr if that's still going on) but like, ugh. This is 1/3 of the player list posting without giving any opinion on anything afterthe coalition failed. Like, the coalition is either the anticlimax where town wins or the climax of the setup where we're supposed to learn we were wrong about everything. And Mala and STD voted for the coalition and now have nothing to say now that it failed. Like it probably isn't just as easy as STD/Mala but if either of them is town then they had better give some reason to believe that-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i'm not fully read up but no, i can't give reasons (in good faith) for everyone but std/mala to be town because that's not why my reads are in the state they are but i can justify a bunch of people if you want-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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STD's 604 and 605 is a whole lot of words to say "eh, it could be anyone" and then essentially call one person on the coalition town and vote the person voting him. Calling 156 an attempt to "sew discord where there's not much going on yet" is like, him calling me scummy for throwing out a read when no one was really throwing out many reads, as far as I can tell? and like... what?
I somewhat like Merlyn's posting on page 25.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Honestly, this post is baffling. "could be a genuine mistake and implo's using it against him" is an argument that just lacks any curiosity or desire to interrogate the hammer. Or me and my play for that matter. Do you think it was a genuine mistake? Why do you think it was a genuine mistake? Why would it being a genuine mistake make STD town? He could have mistakenly hammered as scum.In post 643, RH9 wrote: Though, I'll tentatively VOTE: implo because I feel like STD's hammer could a genuine mistake and implo's using it against him.
Also, the focus on Datisi.
Also, the "scum would want to be careful" argument is wrong, because if STD was the only scum on the coalition then he needed the coalition to get hammered before I could convince people to potentially change it. Which maybe overly centralizes myself in the narrative but etc.
Also, what does "the focus on Datisi" mean?-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Oh the careful thing was Drew's argument. Well etc.
Drew's vote on me isn't scummy but is annoying.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think at this moment in time if like, STD were limmed and flipped town and then I got limmed after (or well, tomorrow in a world where STD flips town), I would want Ari to die next. I think she probably hasn'treallygone out of her scumrange in this game and the fact that her presence in this game is waning is not actively scummy but it does mean that there aren't the kinds of persistent tells that I think I need to cement a read on a player who has snowed me before. I think if Hero is scum then they've played a really good game and if Bella is scum then she's like, doing a lot of small posts here and there that are really hard to fake. Like her most recent post (599) being willing to just call Drew obvtown I think is a townish thing to do in this game state (I also don't think she'd do it if they're both scum). The saying she's worried about being snowed by Hero is something that tactically could make sense from scum but idk, the whole trajectory on hero feels genuine.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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To this point, I think this is actually contextually a scumtell, maybe a strong one. Imagine replacing in to a slot that is already widely being put in coalitions as town, vs as scum. As town, you would absolutely have an agenda, as in stuff you need to be doing: you're in the coalition, you need to sort the other people that are currently widely townread and make sure you think the coalition is good or propose an alternate coalition. Like, I felt like I wanted to get the right coalition, because people were townreading me and the game is way easier if we just get it right the first time so I wanted to be careful. On the other hand, if you replace into a scum slot that's in people's coalitions, you don't need to have any agenda - so long as you remain in the coalition, you're good.
The reason that having an agenda would be scummy in the first place is that scum sometimes need to think in terms of eliminating specific people who they know are on to them or other scum, but that doesn't apply to a coalition phase.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I think at this point I could towncase Drew, I don't really agree with Bella that he's obvtown but I think it's pretty likely. I sort of like Merlyn's 601 a lot - I think the indignance of it reads as town who is genuinely frustrated. I think frustration is a reaction that makes sense to being in the position of someone not on the coalition who is being tossed in the ring as a lim candidate by someone with rhetorical sway. I'm not sure what scum in that situation might do. But the statement "I'm actually trying to play this game AND there are these people who voted for the failing coalition without even being on it, why aren't we looking at them" is I think psychologically more likely to be town because she's not actually justifying or defending herself or her play. She's not giving reasons why she's clearly town or shouldn't be the lim, she's giving reasons why there are other people who should come first, which would logically leave her as still a person who could be limmed later after those people are dealt with. She just reads as annoyed at the pressure on her rather than worried about it.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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Anyway I have to run but I do just think STD flips scum most of the time here. There's nothing in his posting that looks unlikely to come from scum and his content now is just, a one liner on everyone in the coalition and no actual nuance or consideration, after like, he was basically snowed by someone on the coalition since he was so sure that it was gonna be town that he was willing to vote it without even checking if it was a hammer supposedly-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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...what? This is a wildly inaccurate reading of my ISO. I at no point had a hard scumread or really any solid read on Datisi, I just disagreed with the reasons he was being townread.In post 660, RH9 wrote: And re: focus on Datisi, I saw that you were SRing him pretty hard in your ISO
Ari's posts are fair I guess. I'm also kind of losing steam for this game today. I kind of just want a flip and if it's a townflip then I think Ari will probably be more readable tomorrow.
To be clear I'm not like sure of this by any means in this world. I just think if STD flips scum then I'd have a hard time ever being okay with RH9 not being flipped before endgame.In post 663, Hero at Heart wrote: i think rh9couldbe std's partner in a scum!std world, but am not sure-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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This logic only really applies if one of THS/Bella is scum, right?In post 707, Aristeia wrote: because it feels like there's too many people twiddling their thumbs on the sidelines and their votes are on irrelevant people[THS,Bella] and that's sometimes a sign that scum are fine with the current choices/dichotomy in the game and kind of just hoping someone gets offed.
I feel like this is sort of weird but the trajectory still makes sense to me as coming from town, like they were convinced on Datisi and then there was sentiment that changed their mind over time? I do want to hear their response to this thoughIn post 714, Aristeia wrote: i don't really understand how you went from datisi is 99% town to oh he's the bad guy now-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I don't really see myself voting anyone other than STD still unless tides change significantly. I still think we lim on coalition and I think Ari stepping back to re-evaluate is probably +town. I guess I can be convinced on Bella but even if my reasons to townread her aren't that great (and i'm not sure atm) I don't really see good reasons to lim her over STD. STD's play right now is sort of weird from scum because he's not like, doing anything other than just calling me scum and I don't know why that's the case, but I feel like if you're town at E-1 in this game you'd have something more to say than that.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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big mood.In post 767, Bellaphant wrote: Std, rh9 and the are all.making fucking weird choices without much explanation, they can't all be scum
i agree w hero that ths (continues to) look like town
we have 36 hours left!
bella's annoyance (particularly the line about this is how i caught 2 scum recently) reads town to me
i am bored and want a flip >_>-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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i could be convinced on Bella but it'd be sort of a hard sell. I sort of have a hard time imagining wanting to lim anyone other than RH today though. His argument that I should be seeing that he is playing differently from the game I've seen him as scum is kind of absurd (like, sure, you bussed once, okay, most players don't always bus or always not bus). I don't think I have much of a read on RH's play in isolation but the circumstantial evidence of Mala's coalition vote + RH9 not particularly feeling like town means like I said yesterday I don't really want the slot living to endgame. I feel probably less confident on him than I did on STD but mostly because of the coalition info.-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I usually am not good at reading into nightkills in this kind of context. I guess it's simpler given that it's a mountainous setup but idk. I wasn't really expecting to die last night, I guess I would have guessed ari or hero but I didn't think about it that hard, I've kind of turned my brain off from this game overnight-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I softly intend to devote some effort to the game today but it will feel very bad to have devoted that effort if RH is indeed scum-
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implosion he/himPolymathhe/him
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I'm inclined to say that Hero's incredibly aggressive waffle on STD comes from scum really really rarely. It's one thing to like, distance noncommittally so that you don't have to bus if there's an alternative. But hero actively committed and uncommited like 3 separate times from wanting to lim STD. That seems like a very scary thing to do as scum partnered to STD who doesn't know the day is going to go on that long, and like, if they wanted not to bus they could have easily justified voting me over STD at any point and if they wanted to distance without really intending to bus then idk i feel like they wouldn't have like 3 separate posts where they say "okay now for realsies i'm voting std" and if they wanted to bus then they could have just bussed. It feels like what they did is a weird amalgamation of all of these that I think there are very few scum players who would consciously decide to play the day that way.-
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