Open 878: Scarfolk Council | The End

[skitter30]

Heya all!

Cool flavor @umlaut

gonna be very vla on friday/saturday this week with no internet access, and am general limited access on fridays/saturdays

VOTE: mena
Hi hi hi!

[skitter30]

I like vizzy, implo, and doctor drew so far

[skitter30]

invis & sheep somewhat town so far.

I liked this post from implo b/c:
- moving the game along by creating some real content
- i had thought the same thing abt vizzy

[skitter30]

The fact that i had had the same thought abt vizzy

[skitter30]

ok i hate all of andante's takes
i feel p good saying vizzy is town at this point

[skitter30]

i don't even know why we're wagoning alianna tbh
VOTE: andante

[skitter30]

andante why are u even lookign for an sk rn

[skitter30]

skitter can u talk about invis being so town? is it based on meta knowledge

Not meta rn. I feel like he's~ ~present and thinking abt the game, i think posts like85 are unlikely to come from scum

[skitter30]

sorry I'm just like, people saying I'm town and meta in the same sentence? I'm calling it out cause you can literally find any kind of game from me to prove whatever "meta" you're trying to prove.. plus I'm like obviously town here so... no free passes to tr me!

You think you're obviously town here?

[skitter30]

I feel like he's~ ~present and thinking abt the game

so that makes invis town? yet I'm present and thinking about the game, but you think I'm scum?

I don't know, it feels townie for him
He feels like he's solving
You feel like you're just saying random stuff

[skitter30]

sorry I'm just like, people saying I'm town and meta in the same sentence? I'm calling it out cause you can literally find any kind of game from me to prove whatever "meta" you're trying to prove.. plus I'm like obviously town here so... no free passes to tr me!

You think you're obviously town here?

facts

No, you're not, and using that as a basis to read other people is icky

[skitter30]

I feel like everything sheep has done is nai

[skitter30]

You feel like you're just saying random stuff

I'm giving my reads... and questioning stuff that seems off...

i meant more in the sense that your takes are just kinda ??? and don't make any sense to me
like they're there and all i'm thinking is: where did these thoughts even come from

[skitter30]

now back to skitter, invis dissapeared when I started getting real, yet invis has the TR "for being here"???

I disappear cuz I was in school fdlgjdkjghsdfklhgfd (last day ever btw!)

congrats!

[skitter30]

Andante's posts are kind of baffling here lol. I don't like her interaction with Skitter cuz she seems to be overreacting from the pressure and taking really weird angles of defense like shading me for a weird reason and like, seemingly saying Skitter's reads are bad cuz both me and Andante are playing the social deduction game Mafia also known as Werewolf created by Dimitry Davidoff in 1986 but she TRs me and SRs her. Also her response to Menalque voting Aliana is weird. A lot of the other posts I have no idea like her interaction with Sheep. I started this post intending to talk about being confused but the more I think about it the more I just find this slot scummy VOTE: Andante

what is even scummy about what I've done? I've given reads and said why I think them to be true. then interacted with people I thought were saying things to just look town. skitter is definitely scummy here so idk what you're on about with defending skitter...

am i scummy b/c i scumread you or ... ?

[skitter30]

i can kinda see andante/alianna scum together

[skitter30]

I find andante to be quite scummy tbh
I don't know why we're wagoning doctor drew tbh, i don't really get what people are finding scummy there

[skitter30]

maybe im just too wolfy to be a wolf… what an idea :)

>.>
This is Not a good post

[skitter30]

Cat Scratch Fever do u happen to have any reads on the active posters now? like andante/alianna/me etc.
it's kinda bugging me how ur avoiding commenting on relevant stuff

otherwise I would be townreading u lol. 151 and 213 are rly good imo

also what do I call u is it like Cat or CSF or something

I actually think csf is scummy for doing this

[skitter30]

The wagon on Andante's pretty good, but Drew has said he wants to catch up so I don't know why he's being wagoned either.

Can i interest u in voting andante?

[skitter30]

Reads are approximately this. They're relative to a scale, not to each other, and I went the other way around the colour wheel because (a) it's prettier and (b) my scumleans are usually orange. You can ask about my reasoning, but the response is going to be either "idk vibes lol" or "I already talked about that one."

{

Alianna

} - I townread Alianna.
{

Andante

}
{

Aisa, Invisibility, Cat Scratch Fever

}
{

sheepsaysmeep

}
{

Doctor Drew, implosion

}
{

Dunnstral, Cephrir, Menalque, skitter30

} - the null line
{

GuerillaWoo

}

So we have a problem. One person is sus and there's 2-4 bad guys in the game.
Kind of makes me think there's scum in the quiet people.
Or my scumdar's just broken.
Still like the Woo wagon for now, just think the null tier is worth looking into.

This is certainly an Interesting readslist

[skitter30]

Okay Aisa's vote is less sketchy lol.

I definitely also do at least lean town on Woo now.

I thought thag aisa/woo interaction was p townie for both of them

[skitter30]

Vizzy
woo
sheep, Aisa
Mena, implo, dunn
Ceph - null
Alianna
Csf, drew
Andante

I think this is abt where i'm at, i'm cool with a wagon now on any of the bottom 4

Pedit >.>

[skitter30]

I feel like you're lurking and not really engaging with the content rhat exists

And that's unfortunate b/c i sr all of them

[skitter30]

Why did your Drew read change?

I liked implo's point abt how he isnt engaging in super good faith with woo

[skitter30]

Vizzy
woo
sheep, Aisa
Mena, implo, dunn
Ceph - null
Alianna
Csf, drew
Andante

I think this is abt where i'm at, i'm cool with a wagon now on any of the bottom 4

Pedit >.>

you have me as dead last? dang

Yes, this is why i'm voting u

[skitter30]

I object to ostensibly literally nothing in skitter's reads list except Andante, which is nice because I definitely could be wrong on Andante and that gives a nice place to focus on next. That said I don't really have a read on skitter yet so if she's town I think game's in a pretty good spot, if she's scum probably somewhat less so.

I think my playing with Andante is limited to like one newbie game a while ago where she replaced in to a maybe slightly doomed scum slot. I know she says she doesn't think meta is useful or that people use it properly to read her or whatever, I'm curious from people with more experience with her if they think meta is particularly useful for reading her. I think I can see the angle that Andante calling herself the towniest person in the thread is sort of a boisterous bluff, but it also just seems like she's the kind of person who could easily genuinely believe that (or even genuinely believe that she's obvious town in any game that she is town). I guess my townread stems from I don't see anything from her that I don't think could come from town, I kind of jive with sheep's description that it feels like she's vibing her own way and doesn't especially care about perceptions. Like yeah saying "i'm the towniest person in the thread" is outwardly caring about perceptions but it's also like, the way in which she's doing it is a little brusque for scum possibly.

She's p good at scum and with, like, ~tone~ as scum
I can see her saying exactly the line as scum
Tbf, i can see her doing it as town too, but like, it isnt inherently townie for her

[skitter30]

(also hbd skitter!)

Tyty

[skitter30]

Baah I think this is one of those votes where I start typing up some thoughts to justify it and realise I have no real justification -_-

Let's see if this is better
VOTE: skitter30

?

[skitter30]

I think

@implosion

it would be nice if you could explain your read on sheep
----

Baah I think this is one of those votes where I start typing up some thoughts to justify it and realise I have no real justification -_-

Let's see if this is better
VOTE: skitter30

?

I'm sorry I should probably stop voting before explaining haha

Anyway, I'd like you to scumcase Andante for me if that's ok. I understand that someone having different reads from me doesn't mean they're scum but I'd like to explore the idea that in this specific case, it means that, uh, you're scum
:]

1. Why do you think could be scum for having this read?
2. Andante came into thia game with a variety of takes that felt fairly outlandish to me: they were v disjointed, strange takes that by themselves didnt make sense, but also didnt make sense as a cohesive unit
3. For example, starting the game sk hunting is just weird and i think it's a weird place for town to start
4. The whole proclaiming herself to be obvtown ans finding people scummy for not seeing it was also kinda scummy

[skitter30]

i can kinda see andante/alianna scum together

And also why you thought this could be a team

How worried andante got at alianna maybe being at e1. Makes sense to me if worried abt her partner getting flipped

[skitter30]

What on earth is this town lol

[skitter30]

I feel best abt the andante wagon still

[skitter30]

What on earth is this town lol

@umlaut the flavor is really neat

[skitter30]

Andante (3): skitter30, Menalque, Invisibility

this wagon composition is wild..

I think the wagon comp is great, that's partially why i like it

[skitter30]

VOTE: csf

I don't know if i believe the claim but i'll let it be for now.
I don't think i'm 'tunneling' tbh, i'm pushing a sr. Scumreading someone != tunneling and people arent inherently scummy for scumreading you

@andante

[skitter30]

andante was at 4 votes - i don't think that anything you said in that post applies
(that post is kinda scummy ngl)

[skitter30]

Andante (3): skitter30, Menalque, Invisibility

this wagon composition is wild..

I think the wagon comp is great, that's partially why i like it

Skitt, why did you say the wagon comp was great here?

B/c it's me + vizzy (who i townread p strongly) and i didnt hate that u were on it.

Where did i feel weird?

[skitter30]

I think CSF is towny

I did an ISO too :thumbsup::thumbsup: so cool u can pass day 1

Why do u think csf is townie?

[skitter30]

Implo how confident are u on enchant rn? How much of that is meta and how much of it os based on doctor drew?

[skitter30]

I'm awaiting a vc but i can vote enchant

[skitter30]

I don't think woo is particularly scum here tbh

[skitter30]

Andante (3): skitter30, Menalque, Invisibility

this wagon composition is wild..

I think the wagon comp is great, that's partially why i like it

Skitt, why did you say the wagon comp was great here?

B/c it's me + vizzy (who i townread p strongly) and i didnt hate that u were on it.

Where did i feel weird?

no, this is where you felt weird and now I feel better about it

I thought I was included in the wagon comp being great vs just not hating me joining and I didn't think I'd done anything yet that would make you read me as strong town enough for you to be like, actively happy with me being there

I knew you were reading viz as town already so that made sense

Ok thanks, this makes sense

[skitter30]

VOTE: woo

Honestly, this vote is kinda strange and pinged me - why do u think this is the best vote at this time

[skitter30]

Why do u not think enchant is productive rn ?

[skitter30]

sheep could you give me an overall reads list?

I dont rly like these

sheep
implosion, andante
alianna, invisibility trending up
cephrir
menalque/Dunnstral
aisa/skitter/maybe woo
dr-enchant

why don't you like them? that's not rly game relevant but I'm curious

game wise, why is ceph where he is? also why is andante near the top, is it play, PR claim, or something else?

Why do u not think enchant is productive rn ?

you have experience with enchant right? I think wagoning enchant is similar to wagoning N_M -- often a good idea, but unlikely to lead to anything very telling from him

like: if enchant is scum, cool, partners might bus or might just stall out plus I'm not likely to get anything from him. if enchant is town, cool, scum might back the wagon or they might let it stall out because they want to keep him around as a later game lim instead of burning the lim D1

this is not me shitting on enchant but again, similar to N_M, he's limbait and regardless of alignment I don't think the wagons on him are likely to be that productive or to spur other people into having interesting reactions or to do things that are revealing of alignment whereas a wagon elsewhere is more likely to lead to those things imo

Ok but drew was kinda scummy and enchant is actually capable of providing content. He's just lolcatting now

[skitter30]

VOTE: enchant

E2
Mena can be a partner

[skitter30]

I don't think it was 'diverting', it was a little more subtle than that. And yeah i think you could have at that time. Enchant gained a lot more steam imo *after* your vote; your woo vote did look partner-y and iirc it was the biggest wagon that wasnt on someone you already said you werent voting

[skitter30]

VOTE: enchant

E2
Mena can be a partner

Serious question: you think I would burn my chances of endgaming by trying to divert from enchant if we were partnered?

So do u get why i think this?

[skitter30]

VOTE: enchant

E2
Mena can be a partner

Serious question: you think I would burn my chances of endgaming by trying to divert from enchant if we were partnered?

So do u get why i think this?

Yes

I mean, ofc I know you’re wrong in this particular case about what I’m actually doing, but I do now get how you’re thinking it and why

So ig my issue is: why do u think i was thinking that if you were a partner you were burning all of your bridges?

Like this question is a bit weird to me in how it's framed b/c i don't know why you would think i thought you were doing that

[skitter30]

VOTE: Invisibility

No

[skitter30]

Main issue that while there provided "Evidence" that my town meta that scum meta that.

I don't have meta. Even if i did, you only provided game which proved YOUR point to condemn me. You was in games where opposite also happened yet you decided to delete them from your memories because they ruin your point.

It would help if instead of doing this you provided reads and tried to find scum

[skitter30]

Skitter what do you think of andante atp?

Scummy but day1 pass for the pr claim

[skitter30]

so 2 yall would be really mad if I shot invis, yet you don't care that's where my vote is? I'm not sure you'd be as mad as you claim you'd be tbh

I would be quite mad if you shot invis, yes. And don't wanf you to be voting him

[skitter30]

B/c ... ?

[skitter30]

Ugh i really feel like andante is using the claim to avoid getting pushed,she feels super scummy to me

[skitter30]

Unless you think dunn is town, then I'd love to hear it

I want to hear more abt why enchant is town

[skitter30]

obviously I think that? what part of what I've said makes you think I don't genuinely believe it?

... this isnt how this works

[skitter30]

VOTE: dunn

@aisa, have you played much with enchant?

Also looks partner-y

[skitter30]

I really do hope there's no SK and Andante has to lose face over this implosion-is-the-SK bullshit because it's actually irking me.

She hasnt brought this up in a while so this comment feela fairly out of place

[skitter30]

Ugh i really feel like andante is using the claim to avoid getting pushed,she feels super scummy to me

Ugh i really feel like andante is using the claim to avoid getting pushed,she feels super scummy to me

yeah I still find Andante exceedingly scummy

Dunn reminded me that I meant to ask about this.

I think there are 1-3 PRs in this setup that are possibly worth letting live and seeing if scum will deal with them, although if I found the slot scummy enough I would definitely push it to at least claim exactly what PR it is and possibly kill it off anyway. I'm back to townleaning Andante (see implosion's read on her for reasoning) so I don't really care. Anyway.

I don't think it really matters whether she's scummy or not, if you think "PR" is a good enough reason to let her live then she just lives at least until tomorrow and that's that. I'd be curious to hear from both of you what your stance on that is; is the PR claim a good enough reason to let her live until tomorrow?

Yes, that's explicitly why i'm not voting her rn

[skitter30]

I think we should just be flipping enchant here
Mena's trajectory today is ???? bordering on scummy

[skitter30]

Enchant

[skitter30]

I really do hope there's no SK and Andante has to lose face over this implosion-is-the-SK bullshit because it's actually irking me.

She hasnt brought this up in a while so this comment feela fairly out of place

no, she brought it up this morning

Oh fair i only skimmed that one

[skitter30]

And yeah i'm not outright calling mena scum for this b/c jt's weird and calls attention to himself and he *knows this* but like idk what he's doing

[skitter30]

Why is this dead >.>

[skitter30]

idk

I'll always think enchant should be resolved here
the way they're playing would never convince me otherwise lol

im losing motivation for this game and think the recent direction is weird

im doubting a bunch of reads but I dont want to open that door
and I think what will 80-90% be a reassuring red flip will help

Agreed

[skitter30]

Why the out-of-the-gate Aisa vote, sheep?

I think we need to pressure Dunn at this point. I also think skitter is a candidate for scum worth considering/looking closer at.

Hmmm?

[skitter30]

they were just the weirdest around enchant

andante behavior is explained by townreading enchant

menalque technically has an explanation as like that whole "I solved the game via these tests" thing that I still dont know what to think about

aisa sort of calls enchant wolfy but then does a bunch of weird stuff I think wolf might do in a dadv situation

I think mena's thing was townie tbh

[skitter30]

I'm somewhat questioning ceph and implo now. I don't really think csf is town

I'm still somewhat sketchy on andante's slot tbh

[skitter30]

VOTE: ceph

[skitter30]

I feel like he was one of the sketchier votes on wagon + don't have any sort of read there

[skitter30]

Why do you think i didn't

[skitter30]

@implo (just responding to everything here, lmk if i missed anything)
(also @ceph but also going to make a separate post to respond to you a bit more)

i'm going to elaborate a bit on my thought process coming into the day; last night was a bit abbreviated given the lateness of the hour and how tired i was

basically, towards the very end of day1, i started to get an inkling that enchant may be flipping town. basically, once it was decided he was the flip, everything sort of just died - that, to me, indicates that scum were complacent and that they were fine with the flip. despite that, i didn't mind that he was the flip b/c he was a sketchy slot that we were probably not going to resolve in any other way, and would be the center of attention until we flipped him and distracting everything, so figured we might as well get it over with

i dont' 'think that scum were particularly pushing the wagon (they certainly didn't need to be - there was enuf support that i think he would have gotten flipped whehter or not they pushed it, hence the game dying), but i would be pretty surprised if there were *no* scum on-wagon, and that all were off

there were 7 people on wagon, and from my pov, three of them are clear and/or dead (me, vizzy, and enchant), leaving a pool of 4 that i'm p sure contains at least one scum: ceph, alianna, sheep, implosion, in that order (with ceph/alianna being a bit of a tossup tbh, i could vote alianna too if it goes that way)

so that's why i started with ceph (+ i don't have any sort of read on him atm and figured now's the time)

wrt my earlier readslist: andante's slot i think looks better with the enchant townflip (she didn't have to defend th slot so hard if scum) + pr + now there's a replacement so i don't see the point in pushing rn + if i'm being honest a little bit of the scumread may have been playstyle motivated (i.e. that i don't like her playstyle and that i scumread it), so figured now's the time to refresh there

can vote alianna
we flipped encahnt/doctor drew
and while i want to sort csf, i feel like focusing on the wagon is a better idea rn

~

other things:
dont particularly appreciate the 'burden of i think you should be townier by now' , and i'm not expecting town points for the enchant wagon, and i don't think i'm 'leading' anything today

my sketchiness of you is primarily you leading the wagon on town + being in that pool of 4. i dont' actually scumread you but cumulatively the towniness has gone down so you're not as town as before

[skitter30]

Spoiler:

bluh this game is getting serious too fast which i have recently learned is a trait of games i don't get invested in

VOTE: drew why not

i think i will simply not read the first 15 pages

the rest...
don't super want to kill andante right now
didn't like drew rolefishing. baffled by his sub out.
aisa... might be town???
this game is pretty dense/boring. i hate that my boredom is a self fulfilling prophecy (if i'm bored i will not play well enough to be nightkilled)
cat scratch fever probably town
dunnstral has good vibes. i feel not very confident about reading him in general tho

VOTE: enchant

By the way why i am suddenly on edge.

You asked me to do something

I found person i scumread and voted them


If you wanted me to sheep your opinions, then why don't say so

Seemed more like you were personally irritated by implosion than actually thinking he is scum in this game.

And also they aren't doing nothing. Dunn had interesting comments on Alianna's reads list. Woo was doing nothing for a while, got prodded, and is now doing things. Not a ton of things, granted, but 407 is content, and many other posts are also game-relevant. Enchant's ISO has no actual content. Read it. It could have content if Enchant plays the game, but Not Playing the Game in the way Enchant is doing right now, is Enchant's scum meta.

this is accurate

Enchant how do you feel about Andante

you phrase this like enchant and I are the only 2 options for a lim here

like, you know I’m not getting touched here… but “heyyy enchant!! give your thoughts on this person who isn’t getting limmed… might still lim you, but doesn’t matter what you say”

VOTE: Invisibility

What????????

Invisibility asked a completely normal ass question where did you get this from

Main issue that while there provided "Evidence" that my town meta that scum meta that.

I don't have meta. Even if i did, you only provided game which proved YOUR point to condemn me. You was in games where opposite also happened yet you decided to delete them from your memories because they ruin your point.

enchant knows implosion/me are town & not being disingenuous :]

I mean, wouldn't you want my vote to go towards limming your sr? cause it doesn't seem like people are really agreeing anywhere

That’s an odd thing to say when enchant is at e-2 with no competing wagon

well enchant is town, and I haven't seen a solid case in favor of enchant!scum so sorry to say it, but that wagon just seems like a joke wagon to me.. "oh haha enchant is an easy lim!!"

try reading then? :/

enchant is an open wolf here please take the freebie

def want an explanation from menalque tho

enchant is an open wolf here please take the freebie

Great! I have assigned you a question. Your question is: was there anything behind your conviction here, except implosion's case?

VOTE: Enchant

Yeet. This may be all the content I can muster today, but yeet.

I have also assigned you a question, dear. Your question is: see question above

It was a case that already existed for me as I held the same opinion about enchant's meta. There was another game where STD made a similar case and was correct, so I thought it was valid. Enchant solidified that by continuing to fuck around and give up, and I thought his pushback on implosion looked fake.

@ceph this is most of your iso, and the entirety of your pusho n the enchant/drew slot

plz show the 'real conviction' that you're referencing.
this slot was your first real vote of the game (going back to 192, after your vizzy rvs vote), and you basically stayed on it the entire game

this doesn't look like real conviction to me, this is actually p prototypical of how i'd expect scum to join this wagon:
- joining early for a vague reason
- never really reasessing
- leaning into the 'it's an easy scum flip!!1!' thing
- basically using implo's push to justify it (i.e. instead of leading it yourself, letting implo do the work for you and using his posts to explain your vote) -> this is like the opposite of real conviction

like if there's scum on the wagon this is what i'd expect their vote/justification to look like

[skitter30]

also sadness at the rep-outs

[skitter30]

i don't think those posts demonstrate 'conviction'
unless we're like using the word differently

what does 'conviction' mean to u here
(also i don't this is a reach at all but ok)

[skitter30]

'm not sure why you want to scumread me here so bad but the reach is real.

also like this framing is p gross

[skitter30]

ok when i use the word 'conviction' i'm usually looking for some sort of emotional component to that genuine belief, which i wasn't really getting there

so let's replace 'conviction' with your definition of 'genuine belief' and start again
i don't know if those posts display 'genuine belief' either

i believe that std did the work in a prior game, and that you were relying on that + implo making the same case here
what i'm not convinced abt is that you actually believed enchant was scum here vs you just relying on the case that someone else made (that you could also point to someone else making elsewhere) to join the wagon

like what i'm trying to say is: how do i tell the difference between scum-you just joining the wagon b/c someone was pushing it and you have another game you can point to as a reference vs. town-you actually thinking he's flipping scum

you're saying the latter, i'm saying i can see the former

[skitter30]

And honestly? The next time I see someone omgus their main detractor for no clear reason and discredit their secondary detractor with verifiable lies, I'm gonna lim them again

yea so like i don't actually disagree with this
and like that's a large portion of why i voted him
b/c he was gonna be like that the rest of the game regardless

but *that's an easy position for scum to take and how do i know you *didn't** is my point

[skitter30]

ok why do you think i should be townreading you here
(and is this like me particularly or that objectively you think you're townie)

[skitter30]

like i don't really think you're objectively townie here, and i feel like i'm approaching this in good faith, so i'm not really sure why the conclusion is: i'm trying to scumread you and the fact that i don't townread you means that i'm scum

when i don't think you're objectively town
(like if i took a poll rn i don't think the majority of the game would be calling you that)

pedit ok if you're just going to devolve to that idk how you want me to get to a townread here
i don't have a ton of experience with you
it's not like i have a history of meta-reading you correctly
i don't think you've done an abundance of townie things thus far
i'm trying to have a dialogue here and am willing to talk to you abt it

if your conclusion is just: well i just should be townreading you

like idk why you think objectively i should be townreading you in particular, and you aren't really willing to talk to me abt this either, so idk what you want me to do here

[skitter30]

i think you're usually good at mafia and the fact you can't find me as town right now makes me think that you are scum, regardless of what words you want to attach to that. i just don't buy that that is where town you wants to vote right now end of sentence

like i don't think you have any reason / history / anything to actually think this

you're not bleeding green rn (no matter how much you'd like to say that)

[skitter30]

ok that's a different point than being able to townread you, which is what you were saying before

[skitter30]

and i'm allowed to have a slow day /shrug

[skitter30]

ok fair enuf i misunderstood your point
i don't think you are and you telling me you are isn't going to change my mind, sorry

if other people want to back that up i'm more likely to believe it

[skitter30]

i may or may not have had thoughts abt that but we're not supposed to talk abt rep-outs now i believe so kinda glossed over that

pedit ok i like the vote for now then

[skitter30]

i may or may not have had thoughts abt that but we're not supposed to talk abt rep-outs now i believe so kinda glossed over that

oh did they actually make that change

like three years ago i thought
or maybe i made that up

[skitter30]

maybe i'm wrong but i thought the whole topic of rep-outs was not allowed once they've happened

[skitter30]

The point about an emotional component is interesting because my immediate thought on that was that you don't need an emotional component to push someone.

i don't think you need that either, but he said he had 'conviction' and in my mind that translated to an emotional component, so my thought process was: well, you're saying you had conviction (i.e. had this emotional component), but, like where is that

once he said his definition of conviction i reassessed that

[skitter30]

i could have sworn talking abt replacements after the fact wasn't allowed either but can't find that rule so eh

[skitter30]

i could wagon her too
but like also want to do this ceph thing now

[skitter30]

eh i dont' really townread it
i'm not sure it's scummy but like i don't think his reaction is townie either

dunn - nullscum, can wagon too

[skitter30]

i would prefer on wagon tho so would rather ceph/alianna rn

[skitter30]

i don't think that conclusion is hasty at all, and i don't think that objectively prior to this discussion your posts had an inherently 'geunine town motivation' for m e to see so

[skitter30]

i mean fair but that's true abt me form my pov too and that isn't going to help you townread me either, is it?

like this is kinda annoying to me b/c i think you're supposed to be competent and the things you're saying are a little ridiculous and i think you should know that

[skitter30]

i don't know for sure that there is, but i think it's exceedingly likely (you're trying to tell me it's more likely that there were *no* scum on that wagon? ...)

i don't follow your second question

[skitter30]

I think that there was at least one scum on wagon. It's possible that there were 0, for sure, but i think this universe is a lot less likely than the universe where there is at least one scum vote, so i'm concentrating here

Once i start with: look for one scum vote on wagon
I'm left with a small-ish pool of 4 slots

So this is where i'm concentrating

[skitter30]

b/c i think 0 is unlikely

[skitter30]

if there's statistically a wolf in a group of 4 people (which your'e conceding), i think that's easier than finding 2 in a pool of 8

i'm not saying there's 2+ i'm saying i'm thinking htere's at least 1

(also fwiw arguing that there isn't when you're on it is +w to me)

pedit b/c in the four billion games of mafia i've played, i've seen a lot more day1 wagons with wolves on them than day1 wagons with no wolves on them

[skitter30]

The middle paragraph was directed to sheep, not you

And for the other two: i don't think it's arbitrary, it's easier for me to find 1 scum in 4 than 2 in 8 so that's what i'm focusing on

Actually 2 in 6 i think technically but either way i think a smaller pool is better to focus on

If you don't like my approach fine but this is what's working for me

[skitter30]

i'm so happy that you concede that

[skitter30]

I think sheep can be scum here too

[skitter30]

Like i said before, i find it easier to look for 1 scum in 4 than 2 scum in 6 (b/c the pool is smaller and there's fewer slots to look at), so i'm approaching it this way, whether or not it's mathematically correct

[skitter30]

Hooray, I get to do Math!

From skitter pov (or any on-wagon pov), there are 4 potential scum on wagon and 6 off wagon. Assume for simplicity (not safe to assume this, but whatever, it won't affect the takeaway) that there are exactly 3 scum.

The right question is emphatically not "is it likely that there are scum on the wagon". Obviously everyone agrees that's statistically likely. The question is, do you think it's likelier

than random chance would predict

that there is scum on the wagon. The raw probability from skitter's PoV of there being 0 scum on the wagon is 6 choose 3 (number of ways for all scum to be off wagon) over 10 choose 3 (number of ways for scum to be among the whole player list) which is exactly 1/6. So from a numbers standpoint, you should only be focusing on hunting on wagon based on the argument "it's likely some scum was on the wagon" if you think you can justify those odds being better than 5 in 6. Of course there's usually going to be scum on the wagon by raw numbers, but that is no justification for hunting on-wagon rather than off-wagon unless we're *more likely* to find scum on-wagon than off-wagon, i.e. if you think our odds are better than 5/6, which you'd need to justify.

Of course this is also ignoring

how many

scum are on-wagon and the numbers are different for someone off-wagon (from their perspective, it's 11/12 that there's at least one scum on the wagon, I believe). It's specifically responding to this phrasing of reasoning:

I think that there was at least one scum on wagon. It's possible that there were 0, for sure, but i think this universe is a lot less likely than the universe where there is at least one scum vote, so i'm concentrating here

Like, it's also

exceedingly

likely that there was at least one scum vote off the wagon, from skitter's point of view: in fact random chance would say that all 3 scum were on the wagon only 1 out of 30 times. So the same exact reasoning can be used to justify why we ought to look off the wagon. Of course the reason that the reasoning fails in both cases unless you think it's likelier than the baseline probability is that like, you might be 29/30 sure that there's at least one scum out of the 6 players off-wagon, but you might have to mislim 3 of them before figuring that out.

All this is to say: numbers are a silly thing to point to. "There's probably scum on the wagon" needs to be justified by means of why you think scum would be incentivized to vote Enchant, not by raw numbers.

Also for the third paragraph, i don't get it. If there's 1/6 of a chance of 0 scum onwagon, there's 5/6 of not 0 scum on-wagon (i.e. that there is a scum on wagon), so this seems like a good place to look

[skitter30]

Aureal i think is townie

[skitter30]

Aureal i think is townie

Interested in your reasoning

Good vibes from her rep-in

[skitter30]

I read ceph/skitt in ISO and i think ceph looks significantly worse although don’t feel exactly confident that he’s scum

I think he doesn’t look clearly town tho by any means and the main thing I dislike is the assertion that he both was yesterday (from his enchant vote which looked good so long as enchant was scum but looks less so given the green) and I don’t think the argument he’s making that he looks obviously town today and therefore skitt!scum for not seeing that

My point of hesitation is that idrk if town!ceph would believe that about himself despite his posts being pretty thin on the ground

VOTE: ceph

Yeah i'm wondering if the sr on my part was at least a bit motivated by being annoyed, i'm not sure how scummy i find it rn

I kinda want to vote sheep ngl

Feel better @delta

[skitter30]

I read ceph/skitt in ISO and i think ceph looks significantly worse although don’t feel exactly confident that he’s scum

I think he doesn’t look clearly town tho by any means and the main thing I dislike is the assertion that he both was yesterday (from his enchant vote which looked good so long as enchant was scum but looks less so given the green) and I don’t think the argument he’s making that he looks obviously town today and therefore skitt!scum for not seeing that

My point of hesitation is that idrk if town!ceph would believe that about himself despite his posts being pretty thin on the ground

VOTE: ceph

Yeah i'm wondering if the sr on my part was at least a bit motivated by being annoyed, i'm not sure how scummy i find it rn

I kinda want to vote sheep ngl

Feel better @delta

Why sheep?

He feels kinda like he's coasting on being tr

[skitter30]

@implo wrt the math: fair enuf, i seewhat you mean. Maybe it isn't statistically more likely for there to be scum on wagon but this is a useful wya to split the game for me, so this is how i'm approaching it

If you want to call it arbitrary - sure, it's statistically arbitrary, but i think this can help me approach the game in a more meaningful way than just going alphabetically or whatever, as it's pinned to wagon movements and something concrete i can look at in unison.

Wrt sheep - i'm getting the vibe of a lot of pop-ins and less ~oomph~ and just kinda going with the flow. He's validating the lack of wim so i think i did pick up on something here ... i think i was sort of expecting town to reset after a 'well we might as lim useless slot' lim that he was resigned to, and i'm not really getting that. I feel a lot of ~just kinda here~ and ~vague commentary~ on what's happening. I don't think his posts on aisa are particularly indicative of involvement, and i think sheep is the sort of player who is perfectly capable of adjusting trajectory on the fly in response to other people's posts (i.e. b/c of the mu experience). I don't think either of those examples show he's particularly involved or invested rn

I don't know if i would vote him for this but like my tr on him ia degrading a lot

[skitter30]

This feels dead again >.>

[skitter30]

I think dunn and aisa are most likely town

[skitter30]

@sheep why do u think your wim is still low here?

[skitter30]

Would kinda like to hear more from meg + delta

[skitter30]

Also like kinda want meg to confirm that her slot did indeed taks an action last night ...

[skitter30]

Heya fire
Those are certainly interesting takes

[skitter30]

Hard to keep all the replacements straight in my mind

[skitter30]

I think i can vote fire

[skitter30]

ok yea refreshed my memory and you definitely are familiar with andante. what about your reasoning in 161 made you think that was scum AI for andante? i don't think that you really think thats how to sort andante

it feels like one of those things that you can pick out because you know it looks like a reasonable take to the thread at large

Didnt we like just do this two weeks ago
viewtopic.php?p=13754541#p13754541
viewtopic.php?p=13755129#p13755129

For the first question: posts like 120, 123, 91, 72, 71, 70

Are all divorced from the reality of the game *i'm* playing and i have no idea where she's getting these thoughts from

[skitter30]

Heya fire
Those are certainly interesting takes

hi skitter

i didn't like your reaction to andante very much bc this seems like a list that may lack needed familiarity in order to call you out on it

but i guess off the top of my head i don't remember any examples of if you've had much past experience with andante. im pretty sure you've at least played with her before though?

Idk what the middle paragraph means

[skitter30]

Ok i just think it's a little silly to use the exact same approach that was, like, wrong

[skitter30]

It's a lot easier for me to get to the right read on her if i know her alignment, i don't think it's so easy for me to actually read her

And fair enuf

[skitter30]

Content and involvement

[skitter30]

from my (admittedly not that well-researched) knowledge of mena's scumgame that seems pretty in his wheelhouse

i think of his main skills as being able to vibe real-time and successfully posture/front when he wants to seem confident in a solve

it's more effort than he's put into scumgames recently but eh

Why do you think mena could/would do that as scum

Like you said right after, i think his scumgame is more abt vibing in real time and buddying people

I think he's less likely to come up with a elaborate multi-day reaction test depending on a town-slot flipping scum if he were scum

[skitter30]

VOTE: fire
E2

[skitter30]

But as of right now I'm kinda feeling like:

Aisa
implo
sheep
gwoo

are my prob towns

Okay, coming back to this:

- I can't remember why I had implo that high, he should be more like at the low end of the town pile (just vibes)
- I should have included Andante here, but simply presumed she would be self-resolving due to the PR claim
- Adding Ceph to this because I think he looked townier than skitter in the interactions they had earlier this Day
- fire is townier than Alianna was. I don't wanna go as far as saying "ooh I townread this slot now!" but I did not want there to be a hammer yet.
- I kinda think that Aureal's slot is just obv town at this point, her posting is even better than GWoo's was.

So, seems like that leaves me with Dunn, Mena, or skitter as my vote.

I don't have a case ready yet but I'll

VOTE: skitter

as she's the one I have the worst vibes from atm. (I skimmed her iso earlier so I should be able to elaborate when I have more time)

I would like to hear more abt why you think ceph was townier than me in our argument + more abt why you're voting me

[skitter30]

I'll just say that in real-time it certainly felt like mena cared abt people's answers to those questions

I think mena's response was super thorough + townie

[skitter30]

Isnt fire at e1 now?

I want nu-andante-2 to join the game and that the slot took an action last night before ending the day

[skitter30]

Isnt fire at e1 now?

I want nu-andante-2 to join the game and confirm that the slot took an action last night before ending the day

Edited to make more clear ^

[skitter30]

i do think that someone who is in the driver's seat of the game is likely to be scum here

id guess skitter > implosion >>> aisa

im not sure who else qualifies for that role if anyone

beyond that, idk, one of aureal/egix i guess? maybe im wildly misreading sheep?

Since when am i 'in the driver's seat'

[skitter30]

i read most of those posts. someone else can just tell me if mena's huge wall was a good post i guess, i don't plan on reading it

It was

[skitter30]

i feel like you're kind of a leading voice in this game, do you disagree?

I mean by virtue of the fact that 1/3 of the game has been replaced today, sure. Idk if i'm driving things tho

[skitter30]

Scummy slot + i don't like your mena push like at all

[skitter30]

vla until tuesday

Fire i'm acknowledging i see your post and will try to get to it today but it might not happen due to irl stuff

I'm going to only be around sporadically for the next few days as well

[skitter30]

what about the slot is scummy

and why do you think my mena push is more likely to come from me as scum

a lot of alianna's takes were questionable at best. she's very obvious of being town when she's town and contributing, here her thoughts felt a lot more forced
i'm also nto sure she would have replaced as town, and the fact that the slot went thru two replacements is questionable to me

for mena: i feel like you tried p hard to read his posts in not good faith. more importantly, i feel like when you realized you couldn't make it stick, you backed down: you didn't 'have conviction in what you were posting, and i found that scummy

[skitter30]

I am a little curious about fire's list of leading voices too, I don't think I'm

exactly

a leading voice today though I definitely was yesterday. Also curious what specifically about the gamestate makes fire think that someone in the driver's seat is likely scum - just because the most likely lim today is a mislim from fire's pov?

i hated that post b/c i don't think any of the people named are 'in the driver's seat', and i feel like by doing that he was trying to undermine how those people were trying to approach the game

i'm p sure that all three slots are town, and it feels like he's trying to lay suspicion on those people

[skitter30]

i dunno i feel like if skitter and implo and aisa are all town then y'all are probably fine and will get there eventually, so maybe it's also a "what scenarios cause us to lose here" mindset that i do sometimes fall into

but also it doesn't currently feel like the game is on a trajectory towards "getting there" so that makes me think that isn't the case

i think that this is scummy if you haven't solved the game yet, frankly

[skitter30]

i think skitter limiting herself to looking for scum in a group of 4 is really unlike how she engages with the game as town

this is interesting b/c this is exactly how i approach the game as town
for example, mini normal 2181 (here, here, here. these are just few handful of quotes but honestly most of my game that phase was making this argument - i argued that there had to have been one scum on wagon due to my understanding abt the gamestate that i elaborated on it great detail. people didn't like that appraoch and complained quite a lot abt it. there were, in fact, two scum on wagon, and i was town)
i'm sure i can think of more examples but this is one that sticks out quite a lot

i felt v confident on this in that game, and was right. even if i can't always explain it, historically i tend to find that examinign wagons in this way (i.e. trying to figure out who was complacent and happy that a wagon was dead and who was on that wagon and why) tends to work for me, and i feel like there were a lot of similarities between how enchant happened here and how the mislim happened there, and i think this is worth exploring

i *do* do this as town quite a lot

it's something that i could see her doing, but i think even when she does she doesn't just push for the lim she wants, she still is open and trying to solve the game as a whole and sort what's happening around her

i don't really get the feeling that she's doing that here. her focus pool is my slot, ceph, implosion, and sheep. since she made the post laying out that group (960), here's what her posts have been about:

i feel, once again, that this is a conducive approach to the game.
additionally, there are 11 slots in the game right now. beyond you, me, ceph, implosion, and sheep, another 3 (i.e. half of the remaining slots of the game) got replaced over this time period and the game was dead-ish
what was i supposed to be saying abt them exactly anyways.
as more people repped in i talked abt other things, as you see later down in your list of post

like another way of putting it. there's 11 slots in the game. 1 is me, 4 were getting replaced, and i was focusing on one of those + another three people. So out of the 11 slots:
1 me
3 replacements

and i was focusing on 4 of the remaining 7, which is over half of the available people to talk to anyways. If i take your slot out too, b/c it was getting replaced for a lot of it, i was talking abt 3 of 6 non-me active players. i think that's p good, no?
i feel like trying to frame my focus as 'extemely narrow' is willfully ignoring the relevant context/gamestate
in order to find me scummy. like my bet is that if you looked at other people's iso's over the same time period they'd be focusing on a simialar group of people by defualt b/c like a fully 40% of the non-you players in the game at the time were getting replaced ...

additionally, i think it's kinda silly that you're pushing *trying to find scum in a group of people* as scummy - i'm literally doing what i'm meant to be doing as town this game

another thing that is heavily lacking here that i think is usually present in her town game is that i don't see her finding town and working with them anywhere, or even attempting to. i don't think i would expect her to spend a significant amount of her time doing that as town, but she usually has at least some

i feel like i've found several people as town this game (vizzy, mena, implo)
i actually think you're kinda right abt the working with them, i should be putting more effort into that
i think that generally when i'm having a hard time *doing* things in a sluggish gamestate it makes it hard to put even more effort to get other people to do things with me too

in that i think the difference is super clear just from a glance. she's a lot more investigative, pushing in several directions, trying to solve the whole game, and much more willing to engage when asked for explanations or reasonings behind reads. she's just a shining beacon of towniness, especially once it gets into the midgame. here it feels like she's trying to mostly keep her head down and stay in her lane, despite being one of the top posters

i really, really don't think i'm 'trying to keep my head down and stay in my lane', and i also think i'm willing to engage, solve the game, and am more than happy to explain more

i agree that i'm not 'pushing in several directions' as i may have elsewhere but as explained above extensively i don't think this is the right approach for this game based on what the gamestat is. i 'push in several directions' when i don't have a solid starting point. i have one now, so that's where i'm starting

i do think i'm taking more of a backseat and am maybe not as investigative, but like i'm moving on monday and don't have a ton of mental space for this atm so i'm doing what i can and /shrug i'll be around more and effort more when my life isn't in boxes

[skitter30]

responding in purple

Spoiler: skitter stuff

I feel like he was one of the sketchier votes on wagon + don't have any sort of read there

I... feel like you didn't read my posts then?

VOTE: skitter?

I thought this was NAGL for skitt.

961 - leaves out some relevant posts, as was pointed out by Ceph in 963 - 706, for example, couldn't have just been missed by skitt because it was right before two posts that she did quote, so it looks like she conveniently left out stuff that didn't serve to prove her point rather than giving a fair assessment.

i think you're usually good at mafia and the fact you can't find me as town right now makes me think that you are scum, regardless of what words you want to attach to that. i just don't buy that that is where town you wants to vote right now end of sentence

I felt like this was a point in Ceph's favour.

objectively and i think you're good enough to see it

i am not going to quote posts to back that up i am simply feeling a righteous indignation that i can't feel as scum

Tbf I can't vouch for the self-meta argument (I don't think I've ever played a game with Ceph before) but I definitely feel a similar way when I get wrongly scumread in games.

i think you're usually good at mafia and the fact you can't find me as town right now makes me think that you are scum, regardless of what words you want to attach to that. i just don't buy that that is where town you wants to vote right now end of sentence

like i don't think you have any reason / history / anything to actually think this

you're not bleeding green rn (no matter how much you'd like to say that)

This links back to the previous two quotes - I can buy that even if skitt+Ceph haven't played together all that much (I don't know if they have or not, I'm just saying, even if),
a town (or at least, myself in that position) can still feel like they are being scumread by someone who is acting out of character.

i don't think that he was being objectively townie there (and other people agreed with me, and so i feel like i was right in making that assessment)
if he isn't objectively town, is someone who's generally ard to read, can't articulate why i should have been townreading him, and is someone i don't have a history of being able to read ...
i don't think it's reasonable of him to ding me for not being able to read him
also - even if you might be able to say that after the fact, *at the time* while i was arguign with someone abt this it's unlikely i'm going to reach this conclusion no matter my alignment, so ...

ok that's a different point than being able to townread you, which is what you were saying before

This looked to me like trying to deflect/move the goalposts - being a strong town presence and having good reads are not entirely mutually exclusive, as a higher level of involvement usually leads to better reads.

also i feel like you're cherry-picking posts out of context and/or aren't reading the fuller context, i said like two posts later that i had misunderstaood what he had meant and recanted this

=== Older skitter posts ===

I feel like he's~ ~present and thinking abt the game

so that makes invis town? yet I'm present and thinking about the game, but you think I'm scum?

I don't know, it feels townie for him
He feels like he's solving

You feel like you're just saying random stuff

This felt disingenuous imo - I thought that Andante had one of the better entrances to the game.

ok, why did you think that - i was referring to her string of posts 72-74 which were *wild* and completely out of touch with the game that i was reading, especially the implo post
and what maeks it 'disingenuous' vs me just having a different opinion than you

Reads are approximately this. They're relative to a scale, not to each other, and I went the other way around the colour wheel because (a) it's prettier and (b) my scumleans are usually orange. You can ask about my reasoning, but the response is going to be either "idk vibes lol" or "I already talked about that one."

{

Alianna

} - I townread Alianna.
{

Andante

}
{

Aisa, Invisibility, Cat Scratch Fever

}
{

sheepsaysmeep

}
{

Doctor Drew, implosion

}
{

Dunnstral, Cephrir, Menalque, skitter30

} - the null line
{

GuerillaWoo

}

So we have a problem. One person is sus and there's 2-4 bad guys in the game.
Kind of makes me think there's scum in the quiet people.
Or my scumdar's just broken.
Still like the Woo wagon for now, just think the null tier is worth looking into.

This is certainly an Interesting readslist

This post is low in value - at worst, it's shading.

I think

@implosion

it would be nice if you could explain your read on sheep
----

Baah I think this is one of those votes where I start typing up some thoughts to justify it and realise I have no real justification -_-

Let's see if this is better
VOTE: skitter30

?

I'm sorry I should probably stop voting before explaining haha

Anyway, I'd like you to scumcase Andante for me if that's ok. I understand that someone having different reads from me doesn't mean they're scum but I'd like to explore the idea that in this specific case, it means that, uh, you're scum
:]

1. Why do you think could be scum for having this read?
2. Andante came into thia game with a variety of takes that felt fairly outlandish to me: they were v disjointed, strange takes that by themselves didnt make sense, but also didnt make sense as a cohesive unit
3. For example, starting the game sk hunting is just weird and i think it's a weird place for town to start
4. The whole proclaiming herself to be obvtown ans finding people scummy for not seeing it was also kinda scummy

Point #4 isn't a scummy thing imo - I'd even argue it's towny (see my note on 980 for something similar)

I think we should just be flipping enchant here
Mena's

trajectory

today is ???? bordering on scummy

not this old chestnut lol. If only I had a quid for every time a scum tried to frame someone by pointing out their (

spooky ghost voice

) baaad progression, wooooo.

so:
1. trajectory works and is how i solve people: does their trajectory make sense for their approach to the game. if not, why not. could it be they have a different understnading abt X? maybe they have a different meta abt Y so approached that differently? if i can't arrive at a reason why their trajectory *makes sense to them*, they're usually scum. this is how i solve people and denigrating this approach is quite frankly shade
2. mena agreed himself that his trajectory was bad b/c he was doign a whole reaction test thing and said that i was right for calling him out on this .... calling me scum for this is, again, pulling things out of context

[skitter30]

Aisa is ostensibly locktown for like this entire page, IMO.

yes

[skitter30]

I am starting to buy that sheep could be scum. Feels like he's been left behind in the gamestate.

I'm also open to hearing what Aisa has to say about Aureal.

I think the townreads I feel best about in this exact moment are Aisa, Menalque, then Dunnstral, followed by Ceph and Aureal and then probably still sheep. Leaving fire/skitter/egix (which is very much Not The Scumteam lol) and the vacant Andantemeg slot which I guess I still think is town but golly it'd be nice to have someone piloting the slot.

yes this is what i was saying like four days ago ... i feel like he should have gotten back into it by now if he's town tbh
i wouldn't mind voting him

[skitter30]

id prob hero solve it at skitter/aureal/sheep at this exact moment tbh

i would like to hear more abt how me/sheep make sense as a team, ty

[skitter30]

And I read the post before, I mean I want you to cite the exact posts where fire is being objectively villagery

yes i too would like to hear that

[skitter30]

And I read the post before, I mean I want you to cite the exact posts where fire is being objectively villagery

idk maybe there's nothing there if others dont see it lol. I just think his vibe is extremely villagery. villagery thought processes + very unafraid to engage with people + lots of WIM. I think he's had a pro-town effect on the game with how I had completely no motivation until fireisredsir entered and im like oh shit now we really have a game now theres good stuff. I have by far the best gut/natural reaction to his posting in this game before I process it and am like eh fine a wolf can do that. I would feel better about the wagon on him if it acknowledges those aspects of his play that I think look good (idk if it does that yet, I still havent read very in-depth and citing the specific posts u want rn feels weird cuz of that lolz. it's an eager open approach to the game thing

i appreciate that he kickstarted the game
i don't think that makes him town, idk why you think it does

and wdym by 'before i process it' - so you like his posting until you actually think abt the content, and then don't?

[skitter30]

The things that signal to me this might be a town!fire post are:
- I like that it's a meta read and that he is able to describe how skitt's play here seems different from her towngame in some detail.
- I find the pacing and trajectory before he made this post convincing. Like, he read the game, thought of a few slots he suspected, but was undecided for a bit about who to push. And then he deconfused himself and decided to push skitter. This is probably isn't all that AI because he says he is good at keeping a consistent and cohesive mindset. But I guess that if he is scum here I can confirm that he is lol

- idk why this is town-indicative, he should be able to explain how he views my game generally as either alignment? and if he's scum and wants to push me he's more incentivized to do that?
- well, i think that he had to back down from his mena push when mena pushed back and had to find somewhere else to push so like i don't really find this as townie as you do. it looks to me like he just needed to find a new push

[skitter30]

my point wasn't that she shouldn't be looking for a scum there. i think thats valid and i think it's something she could do as town

my point was that she wasn't looking anywhere else

pls see above abt *who else* i should have been focusing on during that time period, exactly ?

[skitter30]

Hi everyone! I'm starting from the beginning, bear with me

Also like kinda want meg to confirm that her slot did indeed taks an action last night ...

Unrelated but

@Merlyn

: hello! Can you confirm or deny this? (No need to claim what action your slot took, just that it took an action)

Deny. Why was this a question though?

please confirm or deny that you're a pr

[skitter30]

ur slot claimed pr and basically used that to avoid getting pushed yesterday
i'm trying to verify if that is actually a really claim

i think you should claim yes/no pr

[skitter30]

Anyways, i think i likemy fire vote
Would vote sheep

Want merlyn to clear up this pr business

Like i said above i'm moving on monday so will be around sporadically foe the next few days

[skitter30]

ur slot claimed pr and basically used that to avoid getting pushed yesterday
i'm trying to verify if that is actually a really claim

i think you should claim yes/no pr

So, I just finished D1- Andante hardclaimed PR. Not softclaimed. What do you mean, you're trying to verify if that is actually a claim?

Do you confirm you're a pr yes/no?

I'm trying to get you to either commit or walk it back

[skitter30]

this is interesting b/c this is exactly how i approach the game as town
for example, mini normal 2181 (here, here, here. these are just few handful of quotes but honestly most of my game that phase was making this argument - i argued that there had to have been one scum on wagon due to my understanding abt the gamestate that i elaborated on it great detail. people didn't like that appraoch and complained quite a lot abt it. there were, in fact, two scum on wagon, and i was town)
i'm sure i can think of more examples but this is one that sticks out quite a lot

i felt v confident on this in that game, and was right. even if i can't always explain it, historically i tend to find that examinign wagons in this way (i.e. trying to figure out who was complacent and happy that a wagon was dead and who was on that wagon and why) tends to work for me, and i feel like there were a lot of similarities between how enchant happened here and how the mislim happened there, and i think this is worth exploring

i *do* do this as town quite a lot

i know it's something that you could do as town. but even in that game i think the energy and the way you're approaching it is way different

but again, the issue i have isn't that you pushed for there being scum on the wagon. i have no problem with that at all. so bringing up this meta point as if it disproves what im saying is just... idk, it feels like a distraction, because this was never relevant to my point

It's a function of how much time i have this week to play this game, which is not a lot

Ok so if your issue isnt how i split the game, what exactly is? That's how i read the first part of your post against me, that you thought that i don't take this approach of limiting the game to certain slots as town. I showed how and where i do, so idk why this is a distraction. Or if this isnt the issue you have - what is?

[skitter30]

ok, why did you think that - i was referring to her string of posts 72-74 which were *wild* and completely out of touch with the game that i was reading, especially the implo post
and what maeks it 'disingenuous' vs me just having a different opinion than you

I thought that it was towny that she was dispensing with the rvs humour and just digging her heels right into the game.

From what little I know of Andante's play, I think that she is usually very rapid-fire and spontaneous so the whole 72-74 sequence didn't seem out of character.

And I specifically thought it was disingenuous because frankly I find it absurd to just reduce Andante's posting to just "random stuff".

I agree with the first bit, but that doesnt make someone town

She can be rapidfire as bith alignments, sure. I don't have an issue with that. My issue is specifically that she was having takes that ~didnt align with the current game~ -> jumping to implosion being sk at post 72 is, actually, wild imo, do you think that's a typical thought for town to have at that point?

[skitter30]

i feel, once again, that this is a conducive approach to the game.
additionally, there are 11 slots in the game right now. beyond you, me, ceph, implosion, and sheep, another 3 (i.e. half of the remaining slots of the game) got replaced over this time period and the game was dead-ish
what was i supposed to be saying abt them exactly anyways.
as more people repped in i talked abt other things, as you see later down in your list of post

like another way of putting it. there's 11 slots in the game. 1 is me, 4 were getting replaced, and i was focusing on one of those + another three people. So out of the 11 slots:
1 me
3 replacements

and i was focusing on 4 of the remaining 7, which is over half of the available people to talk to anyways. If i take your slot out too, b/c it was getting replaced for a lot of it, i was talking abt 3 of 6 non-me active players. i think that's p good, no?
i feel like trying to frame my focus as 'extemely narrow' is willfully ignoring the relevant context/gamestate
in order to find me scummy. like my bet is that if you looked at other people's iso's over the same time period they'd be focusing on a simialar group of people by defualt b/c like a fully 40% of the non-you players in the game at the time were getting replaced ...

additionally, i think it's kinda silly that you're pushing *trying to find scum in a group of people* as scummy - i'm literally doing what i'm meant to be doing as town this game

i just think this is scum mindset and it's kinda exactly what my point was

i felt like you were just taking what was in front of you and "doing what you're supposed to do" and focusing on this pool of people rather than actually taking initiative and bringing the game closer to a solved state, and having that light behind your posts and that drive to figure things out

which i know that you do when you're town, ive seen it many times

and now when you defend yourself you point to how you did what you were supposed to do and how you couldn't have been expected to do more because that was what was in front of you

but like, you are a very careful scum player who plays a tight clean game and minimizes mistakes. and it makes it very hard for people to find fault in your posts. but i think that in playing like that, you miss some of the spark and the inspiration and the risk-taking that you have as town. and what im trying to show is why i think your play here looks more like that tight, clean, focused game, that lacks the spark of town.

Ok but last game proved that *you're not good at reading me based on how 'reasonable i am*, and that this is how i sound as town* so dinging me for doing the same thing you dinged me for last time when you were wrong is silly at best and scummy at worst b/c you should know that this isnt a metric you've had success with. So like i kinda find it scummy that you didnt learn from yhat and are doing it again

Also, like, people have been complaining abt my approach here for most of this phase - if i'm scum who cares abt being 'clean' and caring abt whay people thing .... why am i still sticking to this for like a week in real time when it's clearly getting me flack?

Like if you want to argue that i'm being reasonable and care abt how i'm being perceived ... what am i even doing rn ?

And, again, i took approach towards scumhunting that works for me. Whether or not other people like it or think it's right or whatver doesnt invalidate my approach or mean i'm not solving

[skitter30]

ur slot claimed pr and basically used that to avoid getting pushed yesterday
i'm trying to verify if that is actually a really claim

i think you should claim yes/no pr

So, I just finished D1- Andante hardclaimed PR. Not softclaimed. What do you mean, you're trying to verify if that is actually a claim?

Do you confirm you're a pr yes/no?

I'm trying to get you to either commit or walk it back

Yes, of course I do. And I would do that as scum or town, obviously, because my slot has already claimed. Walk it back? There is no walking back a hard claim. Now, I'm gonna ask again- what did you mean when you said you wanted to 'verify if that is actually a really claim'?

I meant: your slot claimed pr but is the sort of player who may have done that as a non-pr (both as vt and scum) so i wanted the new person in the slot to commit to the claim, or not

[skitter30]

I liked Mena and Aisa's wall posts.

Fireisredsir is being very reasonable but I'm not sure if that makes them town. But I my reasons to scumread their slot weren't that strong in the first place either.

I was townreading GuerillaWoo while they were here.

I am coming around to liking skitter as well.

I think fire is scum here tbqh

[skitter30]

id prob hero solve it at skitter/aureal/sheep at this exact moment tbh

i would like to hear more abt how me/sheep make sense as a team, ty

I think you two make sense as teamed. Your push that sheep is coasting can make perfect sense from the perspective of scum who sees that their partner is starting to lose steam; either you spur them on to keep up their initial level of commitment or you get credit as one of the first people to point out that actually the consensus townread was perhaps misplaced if the town later turns on them. If you are both scum and you genuinely did believe that sheep was starting to coast, or if like sheep said in the scum PT that he wasn't gonna be able to keep up the same level of effort or something like that, then that trajectory would be a very sensible way to play.

i am not really caught up from my previous post, just skimmed, but glad to see that the empty slot is filled; should have more thoughts tomorrow.

I wouldnt really call a partner out on that for those reasons but ok

[skitter30]

Ouch

I'm here I'm following I kind of think skitter could be scum but I'm not fully convinced fire isn't

Game is dense and hard to care about again

Hi, can you elaborate a bit abt where you're holding on fire?

[skitter30]

tbh one could argue that scum skitter intentionally pushed me down the path of a fight with mena by taking one of her biggest deviations from her focus in defending mena and asking me to explain why i thought his behaviour could come from scum

i don't really think thats like a point in favor of her being scum or anything tho bc she could just as easily have made that post as town

but if she is scum and it was intentional then well played

Are you really trying to argue that i'm th3 cause of your fight with mena

By asking you abt a scumread you stated that i clearly disgareed with

B/c that is quite frankly ridiculous
To the point that:
- i don't even know how to respond to that
- i don't believe that's a thought you had ij good faith

[skitter30]

VOTE: skitter

Would u vote fire after i flipped town?

[skitter30]

Ok if this is where we're going i'm just gonna say i would focus on fire + sheep tomorrow, i think that this wagon on me is rather scum-motivated, and i think thw two of them are where to start

I would appreciate if people listen to that after ^

Idk how much more i'm gonna be around before deadline

[skitter30]

I don't think fire's push is in good faith, and i think he should know better. Sheep's vote was slimy

I believe egix + aisa believe this oush more than the other two

[skitter30]

Also like mena said the fact that thjs is easy should be a red flag

[skitter30]

Sounds like you're gonna *love* the wall I'm working on, Mena ;)

If ur town can you please just vote fire and we can talk about skitter tomorrow

Look who else is on her wagon vs who is backing the fire wagon

Can u push fire for me tomorrow, ty

[skitter30]

VOTE: skitter

Would u vote fire after i flipped town?

Also @sheep i would like you to answer this plz

[skitter30]

Well, it's quite hard to get you above four votes (you've been sitting there for several irl days), a whole lot of people seem interested in voting me

There's a disparity there

[skitter30]

I don't think you should have found him scummy in the first place
Yes his big post was townie - it took you a while to admit that tho

[skitter30]

like if its true you were just busy and moving (gl with the move btw) and weren't able to engage with the thread like you usually do then im sorry and in that case you're probably right on sheep

but that conviction thing + framing the previous game as me being unable to read you when it's literally the opposite of that is just. hard for me to see you believing those things as town

Ok do u vote sheep tomorrow after you flip me?

[skitter30]

Oh fair enuf i thought there was more back and forth after it.

[skitter30]

I retract that point then. I do think that the leadup to that post was scummy tho

[skitter30]

like if its true you were just busy and moving (gl with the move btw) and weren't able to engage with the thread like you usually do then im sorry and in that case you're probably right on sheep

but that conviction thing + framing the previous game as me being unable to read you when it's literally the opposite of that is just. hard for me to see you believing those things as town

Ok do u vote sheep tomorrow after you flip me?

Also i do think that you're not able to read me here of you're town ....

[skitter30]

I don't feel the need to commit to solving the game perfectly. I want you to push sheep tomorrow

[skitter30]

yea i mean if you're town then i will be less confident in my ability to read you and ill also feel pretty bad for replacing in here and then getting you killed

and if you're town then sheep and aureal would probably be the first places im looking but id also be worried bc i would not really have a clue who the third would be

I don't get what the second paragraph is saying here: what are you worried abt and why is pushing sheep contingent on knowing the third

[skitter30]

like if its true you were just busy and moving (gl with the move btw) and weren't able to engage with the thread like you usually do then im sorry and in that case you're probably right on sheep

but that conviction thing + framing the previous game as me being unable to read you when it's literally the opposite of that is just. hard for me to see you believing those things as town

Like i'm talking in the town-me world, where you flip me, you say i'm probably right on sheep
I happen to know we live in the town-me world, so if i get flipped, i want my reads pushed tomorrow.

What's your hesitancy exactly?

[skitter30]

Vt
I'm not going to be around today
Please focus on fire and sheep tomorrow

Also @implo: it's not defeatist and i really, really don't like you saying that like on a personal level.
It's making a calculation of: how much time do i have for this in the immediate future , and how much time would i need to talk people out of it, and recognizing that the latter outweighs the former by quite a bit, so moving my energy to trying to make what my reads are *very* clear for after. I am *not* being defeatist. I'm being realistic with what i can do right now

I really, really hope that people listen to my reads

[skitter30]

Also fwiw merlyn is town despite andante

[skitter30]

Also i actually think sheep looks worse here than fire

[skitter30]

I think fire's points about skitter, on the whole, feel cogent to me. I don't think skitter has given a good response to 1425. I understand that she's busy with moving but the defeatism in 1438 just doesn't sit that right with me. I feel like the instinct should be to solidify around the red wagon, or try to convince Aisa why she's wrong given that skitter agreed that Aisa is town. Partially I just think like, if I were town and someone made post 1425 at me it would really get under my skin and I would be pretty indignant about that.

I think skitter’s “defeatism” comes after pretty extensive discussions with fire (which should double as a scum case of fire + defense of herself) and after engaging with me when I was looking undecided. I think it’s completely believable that’s a reaction from town who doesn’t think there’s anything more they can do.

This game is so hard D:

Also, like, yeah
Implo quite a lot of what fire's said to me has annoyed me quite a bit, but i didn't think it was fair to take that out on him b/c he's just playing the game no matter his alignment

I've had a lot of back and forths with him explaining my pov (i.e. both defending myself, and explaining why i think he's scum), and the support for me has creeped up and up and up. I am fully capable of reading the writing on the wall and recognizing where this is going despite the amt of effort i put in (and can put in right now). That isnt defeatist, it's recognizing reality, and it's annoying me *a lot* that you're calling it that

[skitter30]

sorry skitter (and aureal)

<3