Open 878: Scarfolk Council | The End

[sheepsaysmeep]

I definitely feel here and there like fuck it's totally possible, but I feel like on this website basically no one ever crosses the impossible bar for me so at some point you just give up and assume

[sheepsaysmeep]

I definitely feel here and there like fuck it's totally possible, but I feel like on this website basically no one ever crosses the impossible bar for me so at some point you just give up and assume

like menalque could TOTALly be a wolf; the only thing he's done in 2 day phases is push fire and he doesnt care to develop a worldview outside that, which is more likely wolf who's starting to struggle a little

but this game I am just going to assume menal is a villager cuz he sorta did enough and now life is easier and less painful

[sheepsaysmeep]

I think I just do not believe Dunn's worldview is the main thing

the level of reasoning is just so weird compared to a) the amount of stuff in this game's 70+ pages and b) the level he's pushing it

like his entire approach is based fundamentally around Egix lock wolf because people are semi-ignoring egix. which just seems egregiously flawed to me (I think egix's hot-topic-ness is the exact amount I'd expect when considering his absence + the whole game besides skitter townreading CSF. I think Dunn's assertion that people were pushing him purely for inactivity is relatively untrue).

and then he's like I thought about who makes sense as egix's team for a bit and I came up with these 2 different pairings. and I cant really go much further than that. and then periodically repeats the same plan to resolve those five players.
and each time he's explained further I just dont really feel like there's anything there that it's actually getting deeper lol.

it feels much more likely to me to be wolf who found "this course of action that I propose would win the game for us" than villager who's naturally sort of nitpicking lines of reasoning?? picking one weird explanation and then ignoring so much else, like not really evaluating how villagery the content of peoples' posts look independently

[sheepsaysmeep]

Can someone help me find the courage to Just Lim Fire??

fire never ever survives this game without getting limmed so you might as well do it now

[sheepsaysmeep]

in case fire is town I am interested in him having time to do his aureal case but for me personally e-1 is fine

[sheepsaysmeep]

egix96 popin was also very underwhelming and the day phase could use just a bit more time in the hope that he does something lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

implo is too slow, one of u two do it

[sheepsaysmeep]

ive decided I agree no massclaim today and sure I wont rly talk about why

[sheepsaysmeep]

this game is a pooper

[sheepsaysmeep]

aureal is wolfy but I still think dunn is very wolf and am basically tunneled on dunn/fire until a flip

fire's post about meta was not convincing. I looked through dunn wolfgames, and my conclusion was basically "he has an insanely wide wolfrange so I dont think I will be able to give him meta points in this game," rather than "that game felt different than this game so he's villa". fire if ur v and want to convince me I'd probably want u to talk about why his past villa games and wolf games are noticeably different and then this looks like the first set, rather than mainly based on 1 game. The one line I can see here is that dunn seemed more interested in the wolf games I opened, and extreme refusal to put effort into this game could actually be town for some people with meta like that + explain some of the things I find wolfy lol. but I dont love that read because it still feels like theres some level of investment there that he pretends isnt there, as opposed to another half of the playerlist noping out and being like "I hate this game"

[sheepsaysmeep]

one big thing is that I think Dunn's treatment of fire is pretty bad

he has been defending fire without expressing a townread there

first more subtly by being like we gotta do egix et al. today, and then like I prefer these people over voting dunn, and then it's not working so he's more outright like I want to not lim fire

I think if he Townreads fire he should say words explaining it to more firmly actually defend his townread fire

I think if he doesn't townread fire he should get the approach of people like implosion/menal/ sort of me now more. the reasons to resolve him + like, some part of me hoped to be compelled by him today but I just struggle to be compelled by him today. I feel like implo's perspective on why to steamroll him makes more sense than dunn acts like he gets

[sheepsaysmeep]

I am interested in the fire wagon still sticking out like that so close to the deadline- like I dont have a say to question it because I havent really read about it at all lol, but my instinct/gut is mildly against the lim from his posting. first it was like this catch-up could totally be wolf but I really like the way he seems to be engaging with / questioning stuff and I am somewhat pocketed by his read process on me, I think his townread was a good read for the right stuff and his progression on me tonight is something I commonly experience. im mainly curious to look later at how people pushing before the sub have taken into account fire posting

Idk lol

I think fire is posting almost like wolf!me lmao my gut screams wolf

but I think some aspects of their posting are just. Objectively villagery on paper lol

and thus I feel really weird about the state of the wagons

is my surface takeaway prior to understanding much

And I read the post before, I mean I want you to cite the exact posts where fire is being objectively villagery

idk maybe there's nothing there if others dont see it lol. I just think his vibe is extremely villagery. villagery thought processes + very unafraid to engage with people + lots of WIM. I think he's had a pro-town effect on the game with how I had completely no motivation until fireisredsir entered and im like oh shit now we really have a game now theres good stuff. I have by far the best gut/natural reaction to his posting in this game before I process it and am like eh fine a wolf can do that. I would feel better about the wagon on him if it acknowledges those aspects of his play that I think look good (idk if it does that yet, I still havent read very in-depth and citing the specific posts u want rn feels weird cuz of that lolz. it's an eager open approach to the game thing

I like fire's skitter read, at a quick skim. I think it's vaguely similar to mild paranoia ive been wanting to articulate that her reads are too static?
like for example, she first put CSF at wolf for a minor thing. then she keeps repeating here and there that she thinks CSF is a wolf, but many many people have expressed a different opinion and she doesn't engage with it. she asked me why I townread CSF, didnt rly do anything with the response; tons of other people say "I townread CSF" and skitter disagrees but just doesn't rly interact. I think something similar happened with Andante, where first she developed a push on Andante, then a bunch of people went "I feel like this is town for andante?" sorta stuff and I dont feel skitter faced that enough and instead just kept maintaining a rigid andante!wolf

when I saw fire talking about skitter I liked fire more, it feels like we're somewhattt poking at a similar thing

I think fire is toooown, it's not that there's anything he did like "that's really hard to fake", it's just like he said we are responding reallyyyy similarly to some things lol and when that happens on a large-scale it's usually just town. and I find the efforts against him just pretty underwhelming

this is some of what me being wary about fire lim looked like. + actively pushing skitter

dunn being wary about fire lim looks like.. not really talking about fire

[sheepsaysmeep]

also my posting about it wasn't intended to justify the read or convince anyone of anything, i was just updating where my head was at, so idk its a little weird to respond to it with "im not convinced by this"

ur meta read?

I thought he was definitely wolf and then u said u thought he was definitely villager

what else is the purpose of reads than to convince me there

[sheepsaysmeep]

meh ok

VOTE: aureal

[sheepsaysmeep]

fire if u flip villa and then I assume dunn villa for a while and if we lose to him we blame u

does that sound chill

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk I knew it wasnt directly to me

but I assume the ultimate purpose of sorting people is to then convince the rest of the game to take into account your sortings. so it's like, if you care about how much your thoughts are followed after your death, currently it wouldnt work for me btw

and also if im expressing the strengthening of scumread I should probably acknowledge the strong townread made on that page

idk lol

this is such a weird conversation

[sheepsaysmeep]

I think it makes sense as a definition of pure lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

ur still sort of painting it as if it's an expression of a townread which feels weird no one is willing to townread me in this game

[sheepsaysmeep]

damn that's kinda sad

[sheepsaysmeep]

I think I have been fairly clearly interested in u explaining ur thoughts more deeply throughout this day phase

I prefer to have lots of stuff to just sheep

[sheepsaysmeep]

arguably aureal shading me for being on skitter could be tmi that fire is wolf lol

a thought for another day

otherwise the line here just makes even less sense

[sheepsaysmeep]

but yeah if fire flips v it's still wolfy

it's so weirdly nitpicky

fire had like a page worth of interesting content and aureal was like "sheep being pure?!?!!?! nope that's soo untrue"

I think her treatment of me has very much been wolf setting me up like throughout the last couple phases

[sheepsaysmeep]

implosion can you talk about your wolfread more overall, besides my weird flip-flop today. is it largely poe?

[sheepsaysmeep]

I have been kinda frustrated w the wolfreads on me as very mainly "welp he could be wolf" with nothing to respond to but idk that's felt like a concern for another day

[sheepsaysmeep]

Yes I agree with fire here

[sheepsaysmeep]

did merlyn slot crumb at all to be nightkilled or were they townread or what’s going on there

i’m staring at the vcs and you have skitter pushed over fire after fires wagon was tepid for ages and town flip but then a town person on that wagon was killed which feels ??

andante had already hardclaimed PR for the slot mid-d1

didnt die n1 for ???

[sheepsaysmeep]

Actually there is a middleground option if we like, are collectively willing to bet the game on the towncore being town, which would be to massclaim minus the towncore and then have the towncore claim tomorrow. But I don't think that really achieves much.

I was thinking something like this earlier I suppose

I think if someone in the poe is a pr, maybe clearing themself is more useful than their night action.

if they claim today and die tonight it was helpful to resolve them

if tomorrow is lylo and they claim, they cant necessarily clear themself anymore

[sheepsaysmeep]

Actually there is a middleground option if we like, are collectively willing to bet the game on the towncore being town, which would be to massclaim minus the towncore and then have the towncore claim tomorrow. But I don't think that really achieves much.

I was thinking something like this earlier I suppose

I think if someone in the poe is a pr, maybe clearing themself is more useful than their night action.

if they claim today and die tonight it was helpful to resolve them

if tomorrow is lylo and they claim, they cant necessarily clear themself anymore

I changed my mind, I once more think we should not massclaim.

[sheepsaysmeep]

I once more apologize for doubting aisa was a villager

[sheepsaysmeep]

(Which brings up an interesting point: maybe if we eliminate Aureal today and she is scum, then her interactions with fire can help take the sting out of our collective paranoia of fire.)

man this is what I thought about skitter lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

each time I read and reflect on her content I kinda find it >rand wolfy in that moment

like every time she flip flops and suddenly 180's a read, I think that was a relatively impure flip. everyone thinking it's villagery is something I disagreed with and the fact everyone liked it sort of accentuated negative feelings for me throughout the game

then for a moment she put in so much effort for like one page, and I stopped and thought about her overall game very large-scale. I realized theres just no reason for her to put in this much effort and keep flip-flopping her reads around right now. shitty read but she's already locktown by everyone, the entire rest of the game is coasting, just coast too lmfao it would be kinda depressing to keep tryharding like that when if scum you've already won. instead it's pro-town (makes the game less dead) and there's no agenda

there's no good reason why I didnt reach this revelation the past times she was doing it

[sheepsaysmeep]

she is also very tonally pure lol and I had been ignoring it for my read on her content

idk I just stepped out of a tunnel

[sheepsaysmeep]

I now think she is obviously trying to solve the game, which is something that recent post of hers (and the very big shift in her readlist that it implies) compounded especially strongly

I do suddenly think she is obvious town with little doubt

I found her Way of solving wolfy but that was like a Day 1 type of read that I held onto too long

it was like a sorry to Aisa, you've been so hardworking for us u didnt deserve that lazy read lol

idfk

[sheepsaysmeep]

each time I read and reflect on her content I kinda find it >rand wolfy in that moment

is this usage of read pronounced like lead or like lead

past tense I guess

[sheepsaysmeep]

I think the bad faith here in aureal-fire is aureal pulling out "sheep was on both the mislims while I, your wolfread, wasnt" and trying to apply it to this discussion

it is a) basically irrelevant, and b) misused in the way she tries to say alignment-related things with it

a) I just dont think fire said anything that has a good connection to the fact that I was on the main wagons day 1 and day 2, so the whole conversation was just spawned with inherently bad faith

b) aureal's stance in this conversation makes a lot of implications. I think it shades me (aureal disagreed when I said that so maybe im just misinterpreting??) she has snuck self-defense of herself in there, etc. but I think presence on both mislims just blatantly doesnt make sense as something thats relevant. implosion was on both mislims. hypothetically, if skitter's counterwagon fire was village, there's simply nothing wrong with being on the mislim. etc

[sheepsaysmeep]

His apparent position of "person who voted out two town is super pure, person who voted out zero town has got to be scum" is actually logically consistent. It just is not at all likely to be correct and anyone who plays Mafia is going to know that.

this quote I guess is what a lot of above position is based on

[sheepsaysmeep]

popping in to say I do not think meta is a good way to read me lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

If I were doing a 1-game meta read on me from that wolf game I’d probably call me wolf here because they prob feel pretty similar

[sheepsaysmeep]

?

What do u think about me can you describe

[sheepsaysmeep]

VOTE: fireisred

now that theres space lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

fire you should join the aureal wagon tho

I remember reading your post about how you weren't voting cuz the towncore should decide or something and thinking it was kinda goofy. wagons are still fun and important. even If I think u should die today a counterwagon existing on aureal is very nice and productive and feels good

[sheepsaysmeep]

god it feels like aureal-fire lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

reminds me I did not read aureal's last response to fire which I probably shod

[sheepsaysmeep]

I might be on break from this game for just a bit btw stuff is happening in life and may post less than I like

[sheepsaysmeep]

I think aureal is wolfier but I am aboard the train that everyone else left that was fire lim feels more right here

aureal vote was a) I didnt want to put fire at e-1, b) symbolic vote / pressure for being wolfy (reason I think fire/aureal felt w/w is cuz I dont get why fire still refuses to vote aureal lol. I think village!fire would have a bit more eagerness at the possibility aureal somehow gets limmed over him today. or, eagerness to pressure aureal. but instead he's just compounding on condemning himself to death today, doing basically nothing with aureal, feels like he actively wants aureal not to die before him)

[sheepsaysmeep]

fire:

gamestate-wise - I agree there's something going on now with how it's impossible for this guy to die. which isnt necessarily wolf but you just need to resolve slots like that in mafia games
(for some reason, wolves

do not want

this fire lim. I know this because 0 people in this game are trying for it. which is weird to me - he seems like a strong player, wolves would want this lim and could easily make it happen)

read-wise - I really easily see him as wolf. after this day phase. this is hard to talk about cuz I dont have superb reasons to scumread him lol but "easily see him as wolf" applies to very few people this game so it's a contributing factor

info-wise - if fire flips villa, I clear dunnstral. whereas if fire flips wolf, or fire just sits remaining unflipped, I really want to pummel dunnstral. aureal flip doesnt do much for me either way idk


Idunno

this feels like a shitty post cuz none of it is a wolfread but this is how I play / prioritize factors late-game

[sheepsaysmeep]

what about the gamestate makes you concerned about me being town?

For the last couple of days, I've been getting more confident that you were scum because of the growing resistance to the wagon. Could be scum playing a long patient game, but I feel like in those conditions I would make a nice obvious scapegoat for a fire miselim, being the person who noticeably changed their mind about you.

And then suddenly I became the top wagon there.

That makes me wonder whether that's because we're both town so it doesn't really matter to them which of us gets pushed here. Obviously some resistance to your wagon is town, so they may have decided to try this route instead. After all, my townflip here would make you look thaaaaat much worse, and it wouldn't be hard for scum to yank their artificial support for you even if town still isn't sure.

I dont think u were ever the top wagon?

the rest of it doesnt make sense to me either but can u point out where ur talking about here

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk

when I read fire's further explanation about why dunn is town by meta

I thought wow that makes sense and actually exactly fits dunn in this game, so I'll run with it

but I feel like the behavior in question could also be explained by not giving a shit about this game

like bothering a bit less to explain stuff and cover certain bases - maybe thats just the wolfgame but with less of a will to do stuff in this game because only 20% of the game is actively giving a shit

maybe he only has one wolf partner or theyre in a bad position so he cant bring himself to try the same way and that explains the disparity we're talking about over alignment reasons

idfk

what do you think about the chances of that fire

[sheepsaysmeep]

also I realized we should massclaim today lol

maybe theres not enough time for it to make sense but game-wise we shouldve

pretty confident that that's correct

[sheepsaysmeep]

I was writing a rant about the push on me and then I realized maybe this is what you are experiencing and I was like damn my bad

[sheepsaysmeep]

[unv][/unv]

[sheepsaysmeep]

UNVOTE:

goddamnit

[sheepsaysmeep]

tbh my interpretation of that is that it's the right thing to do here. like focusing on the towncore and ensuring that you feel good about it is what I'd expect town in that situation to start with, and I think fire also sees it as what town would do here so I think it's NAI

[sheepsaysmeep]

fire coming into today and being like "ive realized this person, bob, is a wolf" and pummeling them and casing them would never have saved himself over bob

the only way to possibly save himself is to do like a full re-eval solve of the whole game

a full re-eval solve of the whole game starts with double-checking the townreads

[sheepsaysmeep]

I got prodded because I didn't see the point in obnoxiously calling for aureal's blood every so often and that's all I have to add

can u do a bit more if u have time I grapple with my read on u sometimes

[sheepsaysmeep]

it's like the day before lylo

[sheepsaysmeep]

how do u feel about fire

[sheepsaysmeep]

or about a lim on me which it seems might happen

[sheepsaysmeep]

VOTE: fire

I dunno man

[sheepsaysmeep]

I dont rly like ydrasse's catchup lol and I think it fits in team with my scumreads

[sheepsaysmeep]

ya idk i was reading around wagonstuff and that post with the vote here is like

sheep is just doing the same thing they did last game i think where they called someone super towny but the reasoning wasn't like, great
i think in the other game it wasn't as strong as that post which makes it weirder that they have like just abandoned that viewpoint to vote here

I think this just makes no sense as a read on me, out of all the posts I have

in that game, I never really attempted to explain the townread on the person (litten?). the person was a consensus obvious town and was literally never doubted from day 2 until endgame, so there was no reason to explain anything.

fire is just a not even remotely comparable scenario?


feels like forcing a meta read after she hyped up "im so excited to sort sheep using the meta I have!" and just mildly opportunistic lol.

[sheepsaysmeep]

I think "this read seems like a strong townread so it's weird that he's since changed to voting him" is just a bad read in a way that's a pretty wolfy way

[sheepsaysmeep]

i have a vague reason for aureal which lol in context but i think aureal seeing me show up into a game and everyone is like, okay heres my view and aureal is like OH MY GOD LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT FIRE feels real, im unsure if someone is mafia and they decide to immediately get that excited/loud about it but it also may be a personality thing but its fine for now

this I just do not buy, esp in context of her having my last wolfgame in her head, where I faked a deathtunnel on someone and was constantly spamming them begging them to listen to me about that person

[sheepsaysmeep]

blah

[sheepsaysmeep]

meh ok that makes some sense

but yeah I just read a lot on vibes as a player

a lot of the playerlist there including the villagers read on vibes. like they made a towncore of 4 people and almost never bothered explaining any of it. so it feels weird to conclude from that game "sheep making vibe reads could be a wolf!sheep thing"

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk

I never townread fire very hard

first it was like "I do not townread this guy for the record. but it's weird that the scumread is based on his predecessor, and then he's done a lot and idk if the push even acknowledges the thing he's done."

I listed traditionally towny things to make a logical point but I didnt actually townread him

then we kept mindmelding a lot and saying exact same things, and I was like gah feels like a villager tbh.

and then stuff happened, like for example flips + all his posting today, and yeah my perspective has changed and im like fuck I want to just kill u anyway

which it feels wolfy to call that a wolfy thing just because it's making an inherently weak read that can change and then it changed. that feels common

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk

I never townread fire very hard

first it was like "I do not townread this guy for the record. but it's weird that the scumread is based on his predecessor, and then he's done a lot and idk if the push even acknowledges the thing he's done."

I listed traditionally towny things to make a logical point but I didnt actually townread him

then we kept mindmelding a lot and saying exact same things, and I was like gah feels like a villager tbh.

and then stuff happened, like for example flips + all his posting today, and yeah my perspective has changed and im like fuck I want to just kill u anyway

which it feels wolfy to call that a wolfy thing just because it's making an inherently weak read that can change and then it changed. that feels common

this is to ydrasse

[sheepsaysmeep]

ydra have you seen sheep town

ya facts good question

[sheepsaysmeep]

fire you should join the aureal wagon tho

I remember reading your post about how you weren't voting cuz the towncore should decide or something and thinking it was kinda goofy. wagons are still fun and important. even If I think u should die today a counterwagon existing on aureal is very nice and productive and feels good

This is kind of a weird attitude to have when there's momentum toward you. It's like weirdly nonchalant - like, a fire lim or even wagon is definitely not inevitable right now. Idk if I think it's meaningful I'm just not really sure what the point of this post is.

have been spending the whole day thinking he should be putting a vote on aureal but just forgot to say so lol

I think aureal is wolfier but I am aboard the train that everyone else left that was fire lim feels more right here

aureal vote was a) I didnt want to put fire at e-1, b) symbolic vote / pressure for being wolfy (reason I think fire/aureal felt w/w is cuz I dont get why fire still refuses to vote aureal lol. I think village!fire would have a bit more eagerness at the possibility aureal somehow gets limmed over him today. or, eagerness to pressure aureal. but instead he's just compounding on condemning himself to death today, doing basically nothing with aureal, feels like he actively wants aureal not to die before him)

This is also an odd post. I'm definitely starting to confbias into seeing things sheep is saying as being scummy but like, why the explanation? I might have missed someone asking but if not then like it's pretty obvious why he switched from Aureal to fire now. I also just, don't really buy this fire/Auriel w/w spiel. It feels kind of not fully thought out - like I feel like fire-scum w/ Aureal would be plenty happy to have a chance to distance from Aureal in this gamestate if it seems like fire's going down? I don't really have a strong take on whether or not they're w/w but Idk this reasoning just feels like throwing something out there and hoping it sticks.

Still going over past couple pages.

I dont rly remember why I explained myself there lol. I was in the middle of a sequence of posts explaining why I think we should lim fire today despite thinking aureal is actually slightly wolfier. so feels like an appropriate insertion.

and I think generally like, not responding to micro-level things has come back to bite me, if that makes sense? like ive felt miffed by the push on me because it feels like theres nothing to respond to because rather than being about my overall approach to the game, it's more like people were like this post and that post were wolfy and I hadn't felt a need to address those things and now I think we'll lose via my lim. so im probably sort of overcompensating

I dont really get what youre saying about fire/aureal w/w? I think theyre doing exactly what youre describing, taking the chance to distance from Aureal in this gamestate. fire thinks he's guaranteed to die, so he wants to do something useful with his day, so he decides to distance from aureal. so he talks about how aureal is so wolfy but does everything EXCEPT something actually consequential, which is vote and potentially start a wagon; this is what distancing looks like. idk like fire/aureal has felt intuitive to me throughout the day, the post ur quoting isnt a fundamental basis of that view or something I was just adding on

[sheepsaysmeep]

All caught up.

All I want is a clever SE to solve the game and tell me who to eliminate today, but I guess that's not happening
This game makes me tingly like acupuncture rn

I think I have made up my mind that I want a sheep lim today now fwiw. It's <48 hours to deadline and I think sheep feels like the most sensible place for the lim to land to me, right now. Limming sheep ticks a lot of boxes to me. he's one of skitter's scumreads; I don't think I've seen anyone else talk about this as a box to tick but I think it has value and she has experience with him. She called him out on d2 for starting to coast, I didn't agree with her at the time, but he never really stopped doing that. I feel like this trajectory over time of having lots of interactive and original takes d1 and getting highly townread and coasting is frankly pretty +scum on its own. He's never really faced serious pressure all game, in spite of this. We talk a lot about how fire keeps not actually getting limmed... but like, there's a lot of goddamn slots in this game that we could say that about. sheep also lived n1 despite being pretty widely townread (i think? maybe i'm just projecting how I felt but I am town so at least some town were super-townreading him), which is not a

major

reason but is still circumstantial. His posting today, on the whole, doesn't paint a picture in my head of someone who's really feeling invested in figuring out the game and trying to fit different theories together. It feels like he makes a lot of posts where he wants to look like he's doing that but it often doesn't feel like there's a genuine consideration behind that, it feels like it's just a constructed narrative.

I think he's the best lim and I don't think I'm likely to change my mind on it before deadline.

idk this tilts me a little meh I just feel like a lot of it is just untrue I think

u could have put these thoughts about me out there for discussion earlier lol

-me ticking the skitter legacy box has been talked for the record
-I dont think skitter, nor anyone, can be considered a more credible reader of me than average. I stopped playing for a couple years and then was no longer prepubescent age and then I suddenly came back now and was playing mafia fairly differently.
-"never really stopped coasting" is untrue that's the one that bothers me. I think I have been like, superbly pro-town in terms of activity throughout the last two day phases. like beyond I think ive been here constantly reading everything and giving fresh decent thoughts about it in contradiction to what u say, ive often been like bruh this is dead that's bad and poked around with questions and posts to try to change that. in a way that I think is pro-town. like im active enough that I can be frustrated with people who are less active; like ive done the best I can with what I have and I wont get more accurate by further reading and engaging until the people who actually dropped off after being townread do stuff. which is something ive been bugged by all day
-"We talk a lot about how fire keeps not actually getting limmed... but like, there's a lot of goddamn slots in this game that we could say that about." obviously no one compares to fire's situation. he is the only one here who would be so easily limmed. (I would be sorta easily limmed, but it's not the same). but whoever the wolf/wolves are clearly do not really want this lim, because no one really wants this lim right now. which is weird to me because if I was a wolf I think fire lim would be my top choice. that is the idea I randomly threw out
-I dont think not being night 1 kill matters at all, esp in a gamestate where we were probably off the mark day 1. most n1 kills feel weirdly unexpected. people pr hunt, my day 1 reads were probably bad, I stopped playing in like the last 48 hours, blah blah. personally guessed u would be the kill
-I dunno, I get why me just throwing out random theories isnt super believable lol meh. tho calling it a narrative isnt right lol im not pushing anything vaguely cohesive

this just feels like a culmination of untrue things or things that just dont cohesively work together as a case to lim someone. I dont know how to explain.. like, if you take this to someone without context I dont think these are "wow this person is quite likely to flip wolf" things. they just feel like weird arbitrary things. I feel like we have more actively slots that would be great to resolve

[sheepsaysmeep]

if i think that my vote can push aureal over the edge and also multiple people are saying we're not aligned

then why tf do i not just do that and take it to endgame myself

it's not like i would rather crawl my way 90% out of a hole and then be like "oop nvm i really wanted aureal to be the one living here!!"

idk I could easily see it being a "shit that wasnt the plan" situation

u seem literally 100% guaranteed to die today

"ok let's bus each other so aureal u can look better and win the game, are u ready"

aureal dies

"oh shit fuck that wasnt supposed to happen" negative feeling wolves like things going to plan

idk I'll think about it lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk

I think if I die today we 90% lose because this game is in a shitstate where we would have to not lim people I think could be wolf and you wouldnt be surprised at all. and those people are not going to exit that state

but then im left here sitting with literally not much more to do. I feel like my grasp of everyone and their chance of being wolf are solid and at their max quality that they could be. dunn will not engage with the material in the game, ceph will not engage with the material in the game, menal cant yet, ydrasse will need beyond this day phase, implosion is trying but sometimes cant really. so im sitting here with tons of extra time for this game but literally like "I dont think looking back will help or make me any more accurate, the learning curve flattened." and then im being accused of coasting

idk what the point of this post is lol, like me excusing myself, I dont blame myself if a loss comes like I think it will cuz there was something unwinnable/unsolvable about this game in terms of its mass lethargy. a lesson to be learned here about game dynamic and drowning people out or making it hard to read. it would just be especially shit if that loss came from me dying when I think I played fairly well. I still feel like it was a bar set too high cuz wow he can fake good tone as scum or something. and crazy how legit stemming from the "coasting" thing it is when the whole game mood was never less bad than me lol

I guess still any complaint I have is still valid for fire too lmao this game is just weird

[sheepsaysmeep]

ceph writes his case on alianna/delta/fire slot

Vote Count 2.1

This is another page from the hospital records of the anonymous little girl who was found wandering Scarfolk in 1976 (more here).

The colouring book itself was produced by Scarfolk Council Health Board Service Council and was distributed throughout hospitals, schools and junior covens.

While providing children with a fun creative pastime, it also subtly alerted them to the dangers of horrific diseases such as rabies and bed wetting, instilling in the children a deep-seated fear of foreigners, close relatives, harmless household objects, animals, vegetables shaped like animals, and belly buttons (see Barbara the omphalophobic office hand puppet).

---

Aisa (1):

sheepsaysmeep

Dunnstral (1):

Aisa

Cephrir (1):

skitter30

skitter30 (1):

Cephrir

Not voting (7):

Dunnstral, Egix96, implosion, MegAzumarill, Menalque, Alianna, Aureal

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to launch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-06-13 14:00:00)

Notes:

• Seeking a replacement for Alianna.

then egix/ydrasse posts his own reasoning and votes fire/delta slot:

Deltabreedy replaces Alianna.

Oop, missed this

VOTE: Delta

VOTE: Deltabreedy

VOTE: Delta

Vote Count 2.2

Scarfolk Council had a few problems with outsiders, or “Scarfnots” as they were known, interfering in town affairs throughout the 1970s, so it developed a scheme to encourage civic discretion.

The severity of punishment for a “loose tongue” more or less guaranteed obedience, though a few Black Spot cards were issued.

For example, four year old Jeremy Chapped inadvertently discussed with his “Scarfnot” trepanning teacher the sudden, inexplicable appearances of ancient megaliths in schools and community centres, and found himself facing capital punishment.

In lieu of this penalty he pushed an unloved aunt in the path of a speeding hovercraft for which he received not only a cub scout badge, but also a £5 book token from the mayor.

---

Deltabreedy (3):

Egix96, Dunnstral, Cephrir

Dunnstral (2):

Aisa, Aureal

Aisa (1):

sheepsaysmeep

Cephrir (1):

skitter30

Not voting (4):

implosion, MegAzumarill, Menalque, Deltabreedy

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to launch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-06-13 14:00:00)

then delta subs out for fire

a take of mine is that 0 of these slots are w/w with fire lol

would not fuel piling onto your dead-slot wolf partner while it's awaiting replacement

and then it just sits there the whole day phase

[sheepsaysmeep]

which just leaves aureal and towncore and then it sorta becomes hard to find solid teammates for fire?

idfk

[sheepsaysmeep]

dunn just parks on fire all day after that

I just do not really see it as bussing

think wolf prefers to make an effort to save partner there because the basis for the delta push was so weak and because fire seems like a good enough wolf

[sheepsaysmeep]

fire w:

fire/aureal
or fire/aureal/ a deeeeeepwolf. but then I think today would have been much different. fire would simply not dedicate that much effort to the game, and the deep wolf would pummel fire because he doesnt care if fire lives (struggling wolfteam prefers that fire lives)

fire v:

aureal-ceph-ydrasse-dunn find the villager idfk what to do with that lol

I probably trust him on dunn but he said he's not actually fuckin superconfident I wish he was

ydrasse has csf-cred

ceph has some positive things I guess I would just first demolish aureal in fire v world lol

I guess aureal overlaps for me regardless ??

[sheepsaysmeep]

what about the gamestate makes you concerned about me being town?

For the last couple of days, I've been getting more confident that you were scum because of the growing resistance to the wagon. Could be scum playing a long patient game, but I feel like in those conditions I would make a nice obvious scapegoat for a fire miselim, being the person who noticeably changed their mind about you.

And then suddenly I became the top wagon there.

That makes me wonder whether that's because we're both town so it doesn't really matter to them which of us gets pushed here. Obviously some resistance to your wagon is town, so they may have decided to try this route instead. After all, my townflip here would make you look thaaaaat much worse, and it wouldn't be hard for scum to yank their artificial support for you even if town still isn't sure.

u still need to explain this making literally no sense imo lolo

[sheepsaysmeep]

u were never even top wagon I think lol

idk it literally just does not make sense to me

u become top wagon so scum dont care who gets limmed today? I dont get what the post is saying about WHy that's MOre likely than something like fire is scum, wolves care about the lim and prefer you

all I see is

"gamestate has given me a nagging feeling fire is town"
"why?"
"ehh well I realized it could be possible"

[sheepsaysmeep]

I do not understand what the logic is

[sheepsaysmeep]

but then im left here sitting with literally not much more to do. I feel like my grasp of everyone and their chance of being wolf are solid and at their max quality that they could be. dunn will not engage with the material in the game, ceph will not engage with the material in the game, menal cant yet, ydrasse will need beyond this day phase, implosion is trying but sometimes cant really. so im sitting here with tons of extra time for this game but literally like "I dont think looking back will help or make me any more accurate, the learning curve flattened." and then im being accused of coasting

What am I not engaging with?

your worldview of "the wolfteam is within these 5 players" is based on like peoples' treatments of egix slot rather than his posting and then a moment of insight a week ago and then u are completely stagnant otherwise

[sheepsaysmeep]

We have 1 day and 6 hours. We need to start coalescing.

VOTE: aureal

meh

[sheepsaysmeep]

why is it boring

[sheepsaysmeep]

I feel like there is interesting stuff happening to assess

[sheepsaysmeep]

wat else is there to mafia

[sheepsaysmeep]

lol I am vanilla btw, idk how much time I can find tonight

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk

my legacy is that I think the bar to exit this poe is too low and that has a decent chance of being a main cause of a loss

different people who havent been around in this game need to re-scrutinize players like ceph/dunn who could easily be wolf but have tossed as consensus town and then have just sat there on the clear

and they could totally be town but just more due diligence should be done in lylo in terms of good play from us

[sheepsaysmeep]

I guess if I die there are only 3 more tries

I think aureal and fire almost always need to be resolved this game

scrutinize ydrasse's push on me, ask for further explanation cuz I think knowing the meta that was cited, it's kinda bs and was contextually opportunistic

make sure menal starts looking for stuff outside fire; 90% not wolf, if he is wolf he probably only has one partner

never kill implosion or aisa I think, just play the game assuming they are innocent children and let the game be easier that way

[sheepsaysmeep]

@implosion I just play early games and late games very differently as a player and apparently my early game version is much higher quality rn lol

meh

good learning experience

[sheepsaysmeep]

aureal w:

I Don't see aureal and ceph as likely partners

I think aureal with dunn makes a lotttt of sense.

aureal-ydrasse whatever 0 memory of any interaction

I think fire.. if he's a wolf aureal is probably his only teammate and it's 2 of them ?? I dont know otherwise

if aureal isnt a wolf this game doesn't make enough sense and I was never gunna solve it lolz

[sheepsaysmeep]

I dont think fire/aureal is w/w anymore

[sheepsaysmeep]

if aureal isnt a wolf this game doesn't make enough sense and I was never gunna solve it lolz

It's rather frustrating to see multiple people saying this sort of thing IN ADDITION to the multiple people who simply have just not even been trying to solve. At this point, all that together makes for a very poor situation to actually solve this damn thing.

I think fire and I have both expressed something like this at some point today too lmao im sorry if ur town

[sheepsaysmeep]

Also I'd just like to make sure to note that if there were to suddenly be a hammer on me or something, Aisa obviously wasn't concerned enough about preventing this sort of situation to unvote and avoid it. Not that you'd probably get deep enough into the rest of the game to need to worry about her since tomorrow would probably be ELO and there you really should finally resolve one of these slots that would now be 3/3 on yeeting town.

this is still

so wolfy lol

"has kept killing town" is just not an inherently relevant thing for 90% of people. only the really competent players

if anything wolves would avoid being on every wagon in the game when they were all town because they think it looks bad

[sheepsaysmeep]

Aureal (3): Cephrir, sheepsaysmeep, Aisa
fireisredsir (2): Menalque, Aureal
Egix96 (1): Dunnstral

Not voting (3): fireisredsir, Ydrasse, implosion

as of post 2008

[sheepsaysmeep]

Aureal (3): Cephrir,

sheepsaysmeep, Aisa

fireisredsir (2):

Menalque

, Aureal
Egix96 (1): Dunnstral

Not voting (3): fireisredsir, Ydrasse,

implosion

if fire is v then dunn/aureal feels strange and not-right due to Dunn's constant insisting to not vote fire idk

[sheepsaysmeep]

because he had fire set up already with his worldview of 5 fuckin people that contained fire

[sheepsaysmeep]

I guess I keep concluding that maybeeeeee 2 wolves explains, or it simply can't all be contained in fire-aureal-dunn so one of ydrasse/ceph Must contain wolf and slot in someway

[sheepsaysmeep]

I dont actually think being on every mislim is towny lol

I was just trying to emphasize I really dont think "we gotta deal with the people who were on all the top wagons that missed" makes sense at all

despite that I can see how it's technically sorta intuitive

[sheepsaysmeep]

like

let's take what your saying; assume youre town, and this wagon on you goes through. so some of us were on a mislim 3/3 times

cephrir is voting you for ostensibly your exchange at the start of the day. he has wolfread both of your counterwagons (fire +

fire has flip flopped a billion times in terms of you / me

I am voting u for weird gamestate views + self preservation

which of these reasonings for being on a 3rd mislim is towny/wolfy to u? that's a depth I think is most intuitive to go to. rather than just employing the blanket "we've only hit town, so being on all the wagons is bad

like there is no direct benefit of going "this group of players is bad ! thats my legacy". fire/me are literally already the players we're looking at

[sheepsaysmeep]

I do have misgivings about cephrir lmfao not very relevant but yes valid post

[sheepsaysmeep]

a very broad example is that a large proportion of games are mafia sweeps, involving town leaders who control the main wagon and just keep missing

[sheepsaysmeep]

Idunno

I feel like overall you have been stagnantly pushing the biggest block of people, me/fire/dunn/ceph, in a way that wolves need to do if theyre not in a good situation right now.

and then in order to seem not like that, the big focus just shifts

like literally the moment the momentum changed from fire to me (implosion moving from fire to me), fire is maybe town for a weak reason, I go from having been more of a shade-target to scumread + vote

generally, your interactions have felt more like. pushing than like solving. I dont feel like you ask probing questions or collaborative question, no "whats your read here" type of blah blah. most questions when they appear feel like trying to catch me.

[sheepsaysmeep]

like your pool of wolfreads obviously contains at least one villager. but I dont see a motivation to solve this game more deeply. like exploring who's w/w within it or like a "shifting list" of if we can only resolve 2 ppl, or 3 ppl, from my preferred list, this is who it should be. just the same line between town and scum and no palpable worldview

[sheepsaysmeep]

also we still shouldve massclaimed today lmaooo

[sheepsaysmeep]

tbh that meta skim was so quick that I do not remember what I thought about it lol, I guess I would go back and look if we keep just sitting here

I just do not feel enough active solving interest in the game; like it's not about w/w reads, it's about, you want to resolve more or less 4 players, but town you should realize that's not enough solving because you almost always get limmed this game, so town doesn't have the opportunity to lim 4 other players. you have to get more specific than that but there's no semblance of like that spectrum in any of your thoughts

[sheepsaysmeep]

like I think this exchange within me fits with a similar idea. peoples' pushes on you are one of the literal best opportunities to sort those people. but the responses to me just feel like, aggressively focused on self-defense. ive been pushing you for quite a while and I havent felt any effort toward evaluating my alignment during those exchanges which is unnatural imo

[sheepsaysmeep]

within

with*

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk

if aureal is wolf, I think it's one wolf inside her pool of wolfreads. but at least one deeper wolf outside of it, like mena, or csf/ydrasse? I feel like she starts expressing csf potential push, then townbins csf for dunnstral push and then just never really talks about the slot ever again that I can find. I feel like the deeper wolf exists because if she's wolf, her pool of wolfreads/shady slots of me/ceph/dunn/fire wins the game for her if they all die, rather than tmi-ing all her partners

if aureal is villager, I think I feel like cephrir needs to die this game, fire needs to die this game. 1 more to find. but who knows if aureal and me is v/v we already lost ig lool

[sheepsaysmeep]

yah sorry for the stuff coming off hurtfully. im definitely rly grateful for u putting in a lot of effort and making the game bearable amidst everyone's apathy lol. like u legit have a lot of insightful thoughts and I find it a much better experience to play with

fire is sort of saying it, I'll try to think of a better way to put what im thinking. like the subconscious motivations below your work just feel more like what how I'd characterize scum's motivations, achieving enough lims over the course of the game that aren't oneself, rather than town motivations, which I think would look like trying to more precisely nail which person has the better chance of being wolf over the rest of the poe, if I had to guess

the part about the exchange with me. like, my personal experience is that when im town, and someone is pushing me, I just naturally gain a good gut sense of their alignment because I want to. and when im wolf I dont really get the feeling (I have tmi), so there's not much for me to express related to that. but maybe that's an unfair expectation to place on others and only a me thing

[sheepsaysmeep]

town of Salem is better man where just use mech and stuff to figure it out

[sheepsaysmeep]

who is ur conclusion about who to lim next? cephrir?

[sheepsaysmeep]

on mafia universe what u do here is you leave it tied at 4-4 and then the bot randomly picks one to kill and that's considered pro-town gaming

[sheepsaysmeep]

but yeah I am on a similar page to cephrir / fire

[sheepsaysmeep]

how is that your response to that question

like what is your answer to the question that was asked

I have little patience for meaningless questions right now! If anything that was an attempt by sheep to suggest that if you did succeed in your miselim on me here, people should go after Ceph next, not you two. And that's pretty crappy. I don't have time to evaluate the whole damn game but the way you and sheep have been working together against me makes me think there's got to be scum between you two, if not both. Ceph and his LOLOL LET'S JUST KILL TOWNIES IDC is a different beast entirely and not where I'd look first.

it was a genuine question sorry I find it difficult to parse

like,
it's fire then? didnt you express a townread on fire most recently

[sheepsaysmeep]

i think these last couple pages are some of the better posting sheep has done in a while (as either alignment tbh, but i think it's generally towny and it a higher bar of scumposting than he's had if scum)

so i would encourage people not to just skip past them

The way you two are constantly having each others' backs like this is ridiculous. I engage in a discussion I don't even freaking need to have because there's not really much risk that Dunn actually pops up to hammer me after his last expressed thoughts on the subject were that he'd rather flip sheep than me (did I check this before actually getting into things, no, I guess if were scum I guess I'd probably be paying more attention to that sort of thing). I get attacked and belittled by sheep and accused of self-defense for responding naturally to what he's saying. And then he comes to the same damn conclusion about who to flip next that I had started with that he's been attacking me over!

This is so clearly a scum meltdown I don't know how to help anyone who can't tell

I'm genuinely tempted to offer myself up to get it done and that's not a thing I do

Why the eff would I meltdown if I were scum and sheep is the lim and all I can do is make people hate me more by talking instead of just shut up?

Yeah the idea that I'm just freaking offended by the idea that somehow I'm the one supposedly not trying when you're sitting here acting like this, oh that's just ridiculous.

I disagree with these in that I think you've been at very serious risk despite that dunn declared intention to vote me over u, so u need to save yourself, and u think u just havent been at risk?

[sheepsaysmeep]

Gaahhh
UNVOTE:

this is cute but I think agonizingly incorrect here

[sheepsaysmeep]

I am not fond of cephrir's take that I am a plausible partner to aureal here

this is just not a reaction that comes from theater

she's not even calling me wolf, in w/w theater I think she'd be asking people to vote me lol. but yeah this last line isnt the important part

[sheepsaysmeep]

haha amongus

[sheepsaysmeep]

[sheepsaysmeep]

my bad im genuinely trying to interpret ur reads correctly

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk like

aureal I'll try one more time to express why I wolfread you (still not based on your effort which I very much respect)

your exchanges with me feeel from my pov like you townread me (I know you dont actually). I dunno, like through all the responses and everything, vibes-wise I just feel assumed town. but a bad push on oneself (u do think the push is bad) is one of the best opportunities to find wolf. and the way you talk about my push on you, I think you'd strongly wolfread the push; you think it's in bad faith, dumb, very misrepresentative, etc. so when you weren't expressing anything like that, it feels like you don't have a villager's genuine underlying curiosity about people's alignments, which is hard for wolves to fake

it's like, when your go into self-defense mode, your feelings about different people's alignments stop existing or being relevant. they were indiscernible for like many pages before this morning. but it's just kinda weird and unnatural to me because for me theyre always at play (my opinions have constantly evolved like on a page-by-page basis and then I immediately say so) but it seems normal for wolf for them to not be present sometimes(because the feelings aren't real). idk im sorry if ur town and this wasnt good logic but I think it makes lots of sense

[sheepsaysmeep]

I do not think this is worth much further conversing it feels very circles

[sheepsaysmeep]

i'm also genuinely just very baffled at whatever the heck is going on right now

what's going on is I finally exited my wolfrange

[sheepsaysmeep]

i think these last couple pages are some of the better posting sheep has done in a while (as either alignment tbh, but i think it's generally towny and it a higher bar of scumposting than he's had if scum)

so i would encourage people not to just skip past them

I think this is maybe somewhat true but it's very focused on Aureal. Like it seems fairly straightforward for scum-sheep to go "i'm in a 1v1 with Aureal now, so I'm just going to focus analysis on Aureal and what an Aureal flip would mean".

idk, it's straightforward to town!me too because aureal has just been the likely next non-me flip here. whether we flip aureal today before me, or I flip v and then we kill aureal. so it was then intuitive for me to do a lot of "what does it mean if aureal flips v vs if aureal flips w"


I think, it's true that the "sheep is coasting" is not worth overriding for d3 stuff just for the reason that d3 is later. but I think the "sheep is coasting" is worth overriding for d3 stuff just because it's fairly low-quality reasoning lmfao. like implosion u clarified that you're thinking about the quality of my content not being as good as d1, which is fair, but if we're talking about skitter's take she was talking purely about amount of motivation.

a) I think it applies to everyone besides the subs that motivation decreased somewhat at a similar time
b) motivation is Better explained for me by having nothing to do with alignment than having to do with alignment. I was just minorly tired generally for a bit. dont know if this crosses a boundary but I was in the bulk of the game ydrasse linked which is 150-posting every couple days, etc
c) I think skitter explained it at one point as like, "shouldn't he be more motivated after we are now informed about how our day 1 was off the mark?" which just doesnt seem right, I think it made sense to be demoralized by enchant flipping v

[sheepsaysmeep]

honestly, at this exact moment in time, i want to go back to fire lmao.
i don't actually want to do that. i think. but.

I would have supported this like 24 hours ago lmfao but I am very very very much not feeling it rn. very against

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk. I don't see how this is a super duper obvious scum meltdown from Aureal. She's not like, constantly re-evaluating because if she's town she feels like she has scum pushing her and she's just trying to fight back against that? I feel like that's pretty straightforward. She's directly appealing to Aisa to unvote over and over and basically yelling at the rest of her wagon. That seems consistent with town who feels they're being pushed by scum

I dunno it simply does not feel to me like she is town who thinks she's being pushed by scum, because I literally just dont feel her thinking the latter part

it feels like someone who thinks there's a really shit bad-reasoning push on her but I dont feel anything further

[sheepsaysmeep]

personally will not be here at the literal deadline but am around for a bit lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

idk how useful it would be for me to give more thoughts, cuz I cant stop myself from feeling rn that everyone on the side of supporting aureal lim over sheep lim is just villa and I cant tell from an objective standpoint how warped that is

[sheepsaysmeep]

sheep, what do you think the implications of an Aureal townflip would be?

I think I would always feel a need to resolve the cephrir this game--idk how likely I actually think that he is wolf but just from a concrete standpoint of in lylo, what things has each person done and how pro-town were they in hindsight

I would have said fire wolf a day ago but honestly fmpov his EoD just feels town so I would reflect on that overnight

probably dunn looks a bit bad from the way he's dancing around clearly choosing between all of us ?? me/aureal as well as fire
he has just given no meaningful stances about it despite indicating preferences

[sheepsaysmeep]

I would have said fire wolf a day ago but honestly fmpov his EoD just feels town so I would reflect on that overnight

The reason I asked was, is this true if Aureal and you are both town?

I dunno like, there's no reason for fire to do it if he's wolf and we're just v/v? it's still slightly +town for thinking the exact same things as me. idk. we've literally been mindmelding throughout the whole game. if he's wolf it's possible but it's so fuckin weird

[sheepsaysmeep]

weather's nice

[sheepsaysmeep]

I want to see you do the "try to convince implosion on aureal" asap for sorting-you reasons, independent of whatever aisa wants to do rn

[sheepsaysmeep]

I am going away ish now, dont have really have anything more to say lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

oh can you just do the decision thing while im here

solving Dunn's alignment isnt thaat important

[sheepsaysmeep]

yah I figured lmoa

[sheepsaysmeep]

good luck

pray there are 2 wolves lol otherwise this game is fucked

[sheepsaysmeep]

GG lol, was hard game to play

[sheepsaysmeep]

sorry ydra for spewing so much stuff lol idk

I found it rly difficult to do anything other than lightly defend the slot the whole game