The following roles have no place in Mafia...

[Mr Stoofer]

Discuss:

1. Jester
   
2. Scum Mason (unless Masons are
   explicitly
   told: "He/she may be Scum")
   
3. Survivor win conditions (except for an SK)
   
4. Millers, who do not know they are Millers (unless the existence of a Miller is publicly announced to the Town at the start of the game)
   
5. Any random role
   
6. Paranoid Gun Owner

You will never see any of these in a Stoofer game.

[Mr Stoofer]

I think that Cults and non-Sane cops in Minis can be made to work with a lot of care. I have run two minis with non-Sane cops (211 and Methodical Mafia) and I think that everyone would agree that they worked (You were in 211, Seol). I have also run a cult based game (a mini, no less) that worked (Town won).

I agree that there is no place for random roles in Mafia - I have added them to the list.

[Mr Stoofer]

I think that Cults and non-Sane cops in Minis can be made to work with a lot of care. I have run two minis with non-Sane cops (211 and Methodical Mafia) and I think that everyone would agree that they worked (You were in 211, Seol). I have also run a cult based game (a mini, no less) that worked (Town won).

I should probably have been a little more explicit - I have a fundamental problem with cults (yes, cult-based games can work, but my issue isn't one of balance or functionality but an issue of the fairness of role mutability itself), but cops and PGOs are a lesser objection, albeit still one of fairness.

I'm of the opinion that if your role does not work as advertised, then it should be either reasonably viable to determine the true functionality of your role, or the game should not punish you for not determining the true functionality of your role. My objection to non-sane cops in minis is that most of the time, the player doesn't have sufficient information to accurately determine their non-sanity, and the extent of how the role punishes you for assuming it works as advertised is disproporionate. Furthermore, the rarer non-sane cops are, the truer this is, and as their popularity appears to have fallen compared to eg four years ago the requirement for sanity testing is reduced. Basically it's a role that punishes you excessively for playing as cop in the manner most effective in the current metagame, and as such I feel it's a bastard role. I wouldn't be surprised if many feel I'm over-reacting here, though, that's just my personal opinion.

If every other game included a non-sane cop, I'd have much less objection to them.

I agree with all of that and have applied it. For example, in Mafia 211, a little Googleing by the Cop based on his role PM would have determined that he was probably paranoid.

I would add PGO to my list if I had ever seen one in a game. I would never put one in a game.

[Mr Stoofer]

Ok, but all Stoofer games will lack the paranoia that gets Sane cops lynched because they might be a Cult leader that doesn't die when trying to recruit scum, he just fails.

You've never been in a Stoofer game, have you?

[Mr Stoofer]