Standardized Rules and Role PMs (Open Games)

[mneme]

Mafia win condition plus extra:

You are a member of the Mafia with XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX. You may talk with your partners at night. Have one person from the group PM me the name of the player on behalf of the mafia. The named player will be killed.

You win when at least half of the living players are mafia, or when nothing can prevent the same.

(Win condition is important on this one. Note the wording. I'm a big fan of the "...or if nothing can prevent the same" language on mafia/SK win conditions, as it builds in "endgames".)

[/quote]

I see a couple of issues here. One is stylistic (I'd rather say "the named player dies" or "you will the named player"). The other is much more serious -- the VC given allows the mafia to win in non-automatic situations (vig, sk, townie, three mafia, or even the sk, mafia finale). I'd rather have:

Mafia win condition plus extra:

You are a member of the Mafia with XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX. You may talk with your partners at night. Have one person from the group PM me the name of the player on behalf of the mafia (if there's a conflict, the majority wins, ties going to the first PM received). The named player will be killed.

You win when all remaining players are mafia, or when nothing can prevent same.

Also, probably make explicit whether notification will not be given those targeted by a Doctor (who prevents a kill) or a Roleblocker (if they have a night choice) (the default is no-notification, but notification is a common variation, and such issues should also be standard in an Open game)

[mneme]

Hmm. In a Standard game, do the mafia win on a total elimination? Or is that a true Tie?

If the mafia do not win when all players (including all mafia) are eliminatied, the mafia win condition should be:

You win when all non-mafia are dead and at least one mafia member remains, or when nothing can prevent same.

[mneme]

Flay: even with more mafia than town, a Sk/vig combo could stop a win:

3 mafia, sk, vig, townie.

the mafia and the sk lynch a townie. (win for mafia! ...maybe not).

During the night, the sk and the vig each kill a mafia member.

the mafia kills the vig.

Tie!

I think "total victory -- or nothing can prevent same" is the only good answer. the "50% mafia" or ">50% mafia" rules are really an attempt to encapsulate "nothing can prevent same" in numbers.

Anothing thing for "standard" rules -- what about differentiation of kills? A lot of mods do this, using different stigmatta for the SK kill vs the mafia kill. Is this kosher? Must be part of the setup? Verbotten? Mod's choice, but must mention this in the front post?

[mneme]

But do you think the mafia

should

win if it's 2 mafia against a vig and doc only going into Day?

No, I don't. Do you?

[mneme]

VM agree with Glork, Flay, Yos2, etc. The "the scum come out during the day and masacre everyone" is really chrome associated with a scum auto-win (ie, avoiding playing out a moot game). It's -not- a rule and not part of Standard Mafia -- where the real rule is total anihilation of opposing sides. There are some funky roles (lyncher, jester) that have wierd insta-win abilities, but in some ways those roles are actually too powerful -- and regardless, the mafia isn't and shouldn't be one of those.

[mneme]

I think the majority (67% by the poll at the top of the linked post) perfer to avoid the 50% rule (except as a consequence) because it's more complicated (ie, an extra rule) than not having it.

Obviously, there are setups that may only be balanced with a 50% rule -- but by the same measure, there are setups that are only balanced without one. (or are only balanced with a "scum win if they gain -- and cannot lose -- a 50% share in the town, and there is at least one scum left" -- this gives the mafia a win in the 2 docs, 2 mafia and mafia vs unkillable townie cases while keeping things open in mafia vs doc+vig, which is pleasing because there's no play in the first two cases (ie, a tie is the only other option; guaranteed in the first case and clear after a day or two in the second) but there still is some in the third one).

[mneme]

Yos: er....a tie is possible in any game with at least 3 sides with killing power regardless. Even a 50% rule cannot prevent it; you can always have 3 people going into night end with a triple-kill, thus ending in a tie of total annihilation.

Moreover, if the mafia have such a power and the SK doesn't, then SK vs roleblocker's still a tie. Moreover, if they both have such a power, then SK vs mafioso is still a tie.

So "preventing ties" isn't really a great justification for the 50% rule.