Long term health of mafiascum

[Majiffy]

Couple of things I'd identify, apologize if this is echoing others;
1) People don't "do" forums much anymore. People want instantaneous; one of the big draws for EpicMafia was the fact that it was real-time chat-based.

2) Seems to me that the first graph illustrates a potentially un-natural "boom", and the resulting drop down establishes a return to normal, healthy growth. A decline in and of itself is not necessarily a decline, per se. Check the history of stocks that have had un-natural booms.

3) Mafia-type live games seem to be growing amongst at least my generation (mid 20s). Particularly One Night Werewolf. If people have a local community to play face-to-face, they aren't going to seek online outlets very often.

None of these seem to be faults of MS or how it is run. It's just nature and the resulting environment.

[Majiffy]

Also regarding outside communities, it seems to me that - at least in my own admittedly limited experience - most sites have a "small" group of players that occasionally host games, whilst there are "roaming" members that will play games on numerous sites that keep all of these mafia communities churning. Of the three off-sites that I play on, a good 50% of the players on each site are on all three and play consistently in every game hosted, whilst each site also has it's own domestic players that stick primarily to the one site.

Edit, afterthought: Also, a lot of the complaints I've heard from these players in regards to playing here are the length in delays from signups to gamestarts, and the length of the games in and of themselves. Many of these players prefer to play games that are done within the course of a week.

[Majiffy]

Many of these players prefer to play games that are done within the course of a week.

Games that fast can't be supported with the current queue system. We funnel players into a limited number of games so they need to offer a relatively homogenous experience for their queue. Sub-segmenting by another factor is just silly though. If we aim to be inclusive of games like that, I don't think the solution is a 'fast' queue, but reworking the whole system. (not that I think it will happen).

I don't disagree. I actually prefer the slower games. I'm just stating the things I've heard.

[Majiffy]

If we do the social media thing can we pleeeeease include Google+? I feel so left out of things when they require facebook accounts.

[Majiffy]

A lot of the suggestions have been technical in nature. The problem there is the amount of man power we have. I can take 1 thing and run with it, I don't have the time or drive to do 10 things. This effort is going to take the whole community to be successful. If there is something you can think of that you can do, share it.

If you ever need sound design or anything else relating to audio, I'm your man.

Everything else I'm pretty useless about. You kids and your techno-gizmo-doodaddies and your inter tubes.

[Majiffy]

Well I'm around if you need me.

[Majiffy]

In regards to chat mafia, here is what Epicmafia looks like:

The graphic with people is annoying and I dont know if anyone even uses it.

Also fuck having a soundtrack I was so confused when music started playing on me.

[Majiffy]

I agree there are better setups (4 VTs, 1 cop, 1 gov, 1 godfather, 1 goon, night start) for chat mafia. But this also belongs in a different thread.

BV +1 Miller is best setup.

[Majiffy]

Certainly we must have a few artists floating around.

[Majiffy]

is that really that big a gain? I'd say the bigger thing that EM has is automatic vote counting and resolution. For MS you'd want it to only pull some unique code (e.g. the [.vote] tag) for voting from each post that comes in a drop down box with current players, and maybe lock the thread when majority is reached.

I was working on an automated vote processing tool when thesp released his, at which point it felt like it would be kind of douchy to finish it >_>.

well, i didn't mean a vote counter. I meant something that automatically shows up-to-date information for a thread with votes and unvotes without having to use a mod for vote counts.

Im not sure I distinguish the difference but there is an automated system on an offsite that will pm you the vc on prompt. Ill look into it.

[Majiffy]

FWIW we definitely have the best ISO system which is infinitely useful.

[Majiffy]

Ok. The one I know of doesnt require a mod. If youre interested I can look into it.

[Majiffy]

If your looking for an "automated vote count" my homesite has something like that where we can set the lynch threshold and once it gets reached the thread gets locked and it makes a post saying "XXX got lynched stay tuned for end of day theme" along with the end vote count. I also know a user of there was working on the idea of making an automated signup and just got back in touch, it should be easy to convert over he said but to to his rl work job now hes kinda quit working on it.

I could see if the person still has interest in automated signups and could make it over here.

For the vote count though I dunno if I can get that coding but I can look into it and see if one of the admins over there can nab it

Auto lock is cool and i am totally interested in seeing how it works in forums.

[Majiffy]

I like 'yay'ing posts.

[Majiffy]

Even with all the colour coding in the world what your suggesting would be a mess and a lot more difficult to sift through. For older members it would be a pain, for newer members, they just wouldn't do it. The nice thing about the queue system as it stands (even with the flaws) is that you know where exactly to go for the kind of game you want. This new system would not do that.

Newbie Games
Subforum: Newbie Signups

Micro Games
Subforum: Micro Signups

[Majiffy]

I don't think it's burying. It's just one subforum deep.

[Majiffy]

Uhhh I missed this but damn that mockup on the last page looks amazing

Thanks for mentioning! I missed it too. And it definitely does.

[Majiffy]

Maybe not that last one. It's a lot of words. Just not catchy or eye-popping.

[Majiffy]

Not to mention the popularity of mafia-themed video games and apps and the like make it increasingly hard to get search traffic over those things. Someone would have to be very specific with their search results.

So true. When I say I'm playing mafia they usually assume it's one of

those

games.

[Majiffy]

edit: trying the same thing with "werewolf" was a disaster. Even if people know it as werewolf, they'll get better results with "mafia".

Probably because "mafia" has been the name of the game since its inception, and "werewolf" has only recently taken up steam with things like One Night Werewolf. Ergo all the online communities have been calling themselves and the game mafia for quite a while.

[Majiffy]

Some mafia setups or nightactions could be represented in flowchart, and I've never seen diagrams for the mechanics that befit a wiki. Surely this is mostly a waste of time, but aren't diagrams and graphs something we could provide?

Natural Action Resolution, surely.

Yeah my family is never seeing the shit I post in the non-mafia boards.

Something something nut milk

[Majiffy]

Whats a face book

[Majiffy]

Vote tags are much harder to miss than bolds and ergo I throw my support behind them.

[Majiffy]

I have a hard time accepting that standardization is necessary given that the site has run mafia games just fine for over a decade without automation.

I have a hard time accepting that democracy is necessary given that humanity has survived just fine for centuries without common basic rights.

[Majiffy]

tl;dr your argument is an argument against progress by virtue of a conservative mindset and doesn't actually hold any merit.

[Majiffy]

I gave an opinion on a particular proposed change.

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to what you can argue for.

I think this particular change is an over reach because it makes the adoption of automated vote counting and vote tags required.

Considering this process will speed up and make everything else more efficient, I don't see a valid argument backing this up.

I went back to the last game I ran in June and found 6 instances where I would have had to step in on bold tag voting in the first three pages of that game. If I am going to be required to enforce a rule I don't feel is necessary, I'm just not going to bother to mod at all

It's simple; "Rule: All votes must use VOTE: tags. Failure to use these tags will result in the vote not being counted."
This has been used and enforced with

relatively little more effort from the game mod.

And considering when an automated counter is up and running, it will literally mean you can just run the program and post a vote count instead of having to trawl through post after post and keep a vote count for yourself to post, it means

incredibly less work for the mod in the long run.

and I would submit that it could be precisely that administration is becoming more heavy handed that interest in the site is declining as this thread is stated in the OP.

I don't think this has anything to do with being heavy-handed and has a lot to do with modernization, an eye towards ease-of-use in the future, and having cleaner games with less chances of error.

But I mean, if you like all of those inefficiencies, I guess you can continue to argue why

is so much easier than VOTE: to type, especially when both have their own clickable button in the advanced posting page.


To recap, this continues to be your ill-reasoned argument;

I have a hard time accepting that [insert any change here] is necessary given that the site has run mafia games just fine for over a decade without [insert any change here].

[Majiffy]

I have a hard time accepting that standardization is necessary given that the site has run mafia games just fine for over a decade without automation.

I have a hard time accepting that democracy is necessary given that humanity has survived just fine for centuries without common basic rights.

That is not a strawman of Zach's position because it is actually an argument against democracy. Zach's argument is actually an argument against automation.

I'm not sure you understand the metaphor. His argument is one against progress for the sake of stasis.

Even if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, does that make it justifiable? Surely, for instance, humanity would benefit by replacing your house with a hospital.

Yeah, you're definitely not so good with metaphors. This would only hold if you advocated changing every domicile into a hospital, which obviously wouldn't benefit humanity because there'd be an over-saturation of hospitals for no reason, and an abundant homeless problem.

This is rather a pointless argument. Why not let Zach doomsay until chamber presents his work?

Because his doomsay is counter-productive know-nothing fear mongering.

[Majiffy]

How exactly am I opposed to progress? I have no problem with automated vote counting, and I actually would expect it to be heavily adopted. My problem is with requiring it. I don't think it's necessary or justifiable to require it. A moderator does not require these tools to successfully moderate a game, but they are certainly welcome to use them. How is that such a horrible position?

This is about lessening the workload on the already

over-worked, unpaid

moderators that are keeping this site running. Less mod errors, better efficiency in running games, etc. What is your real issue with

vs VOTE: ?

I don't think you understand that in order for something like automated queues and the like that have been tossed around as potential future implementations, it has to be an all-or-nothing change. You can't half-ass it, or else it'll become even more of a nightmare for the queue mods, game mods, administration etc.

This kind of useless bickering just creates doubt in the ability to implement these changes effectively.

[Majiffy]

Zach I'm starting to gather by what you're saying that you have no idea what a site-wide implementation of automatic vote counts in threads looks like.

So I'm just going to leave it at the case of "Ok, you're a moron who is talking out his ass" and wash my hands of this.

[Majiffy]

5 years on this site and the last two I have felt more hostility from users than I ever felt in the first five. I think this site needs to take a real long hard look at how it treats people who have dissenting/different opinions. Can't speak for why so many are no longer here, but I would imagine that among people that aren't here anymore they are also people who have differing opinions but don't want to be treated the way I am being treated here for having a different viewpoint.

>He says to a person who is no longer allowed to play or mod games on-site anymore.

Fuck off, prick.

[Majiffy]

Because I don't put up with demeaning self-righteous obnoxious snobbery from people who should know better before they open their mouths?

Excuse me.

[Majiffy]

"There's talks of a site-wide implementation that will change absolutely nothing for the typical user except potentially having to get used to typing VOTE: where they used to have to type

! As a moderator, absolutely nothing will change! Look at how bad this site has gotten! I'm surprised people even stay!"

[Majiffy]

If we're mandating automated vote counting and enforcing vote tags only so that it works, it stands to reason that as a mod I will no longer have the discretion to count votes any other way because the site is deciding that only vote tags count as votes and that all voting is automated.

you have no idea what a site-wide implementation of automatic vote counts in threads looks like.

[Majiffy]

Because who actually unvotes except in LYLO anymore?

[Majiffy]

From what Chamber has said, that is the impression I have gotten about how it will work.

Except your impression takes a lot of wild assumptions that I have never seen in an automated vote counter, ever.

Which brings me back to my "you have no idea what an automated vote counter looks like" statement. That you continue to prove with every post.

Why don't you go ahead and run me by what you think this evil automated fascist vote counter machine cyborg AI doomsday machine would look like and how it would operate.

[Majiffy]

So if someone votes in bold will I be able to count that as a vote, yes or no?

You can. You shouldn't, because

rules.

But yes.

AVCs typically send the vote count via PM to the person requesting them. Any votes that don't fit the algorithm are not counted.

If you're a mod that wants to count the bolded, then you'll just have to go through and do

the same things you'd do as a normal mod

; count the votes manually. This changes nothing from the mod's perspective.

If you're a mod that wants to strictly adhere to the rules, then you just post what you receive in PM. This makes the job easier for the mod,

and removes the grey area from things like faux-votes.

So if your issue is faux-voting, you should support the site-wide notion to only count VOTE: tagged votes.

The IRC site xyl made a long time back and I use has automated vote counting. Some people do try to exploit and do quick voting or trick voting to lure out scum in those games. And they do it in ways similar to the one i described in my last post. Use of a vote counter to your advantage takes the scum hunting out of finding scum and has a software do it for you. And thats wrong

Me and Zach are on the same page even though we simul post and I type slow

Though neither of us does know how chamber will implement his counter so I state the idea of allowing mod to edit auto counter results as a good suggestion to avoid this stuff from happening

There's a few things here so I'll have to break it down.

1) This is a forum and not a chat. So by that virtue alone, those types of quickhammers (or faux-votes leading to them) really shouldn't be as much of an issue.

2) This comes down to mod discretion. If the rules state only votes posted as VOTE: count, and the bolded don't, then the players should be acutely aware of that.

Read the OP.

3) If you're going to go back and retroactively change all

votes to VOTE: , then that should be represented in the OP. Again, this removes all of that grey area about faux-voting.


Basically, all the perceived issues regarding this lie solely on players trying to bend or break rules in a game-ethics way.

I would consider these a modkillable offence.

Simple. Won't happen then. It's simply against the spirit of the game to try to use out-of-game mechanics to win. Just like disallowed private communications, posting screenshots, etc.

[Majiffy]

I'm not a coder so I can't speak to the issues regarding bold or unbolded votes.

But I seriously fail to see the issue with using the regular vote tags.

[Majiffy]

If they had existed from the beginning of time there wouldn't be one, but there's a whole load of users who came to the site and learned how to vote differently.

Life is so hard sometimes.

[Majiffy]

That would be neat.

Double-voters and other vote-shenaniganry-roles would probably become a bit of a pain in the ass, though.

[Majiffy]

The only thing I'm worried about with double voting / other shenaniganry regards compromising a game's integrity. It should be definitely made known to all mods that any "secret" votes are no longer secret at the point of implementation.

[Majiffy]

HURT: Toonami

[Majiffy]

Fucking lol hurt2

[Majiffy]

Fixed-income retirees.

Oh god please don't tell grandma to play mafia. Please.

[Majiffy]

Besides we already have DGB

[Majiffy]

Dude.

I'm a grandma. Really.

[Majiffy]

Hes not?

[Majiffy]

D1 policy tbh.

Just throw in Marquis and D1 will be over before RVS

[Majiffy]

Majiffy Admin 2015 tbh

[Majiffy]

Stop joining games with shitty playerlists, then. You can have a challenging game while still having fun if you play with the right people.

[Majiffy]

"The world does not fit my standards and that is the world's fault!"

[Majiffy]

Yeah, shee, we gon' shteep tha' whole shabang in rashial shtereotypesh becaushe that'sh gonna go over reaaaal well, shee.

[Majiffy]

I'm talking about everything mafia-related to that time period

So like a small percentage of criminal Italians and the underlying racial stereotype that was fostered by the largely-Italian criminal organizations that were prevalent at the time.

like Al Capone

An Italian-American

the history and origins of the mafia in general

Based in Italy

the five families

All Italian-American

the Code of La Cosa Nostra

Italians etc.

Not to mention all the places, the food, the people, etc.

So... an Italian festival?

[Majiffy]

em has really stepped its game up!

It got rid of tiered lobbies.

The most popular setup is a broken semi-open where 1/2 of the setups can result in autowin for either side by either D1 or D2. It hasn't improved much.

[Majiffy]

wat

Oh you're talking about the TV show. I'm thinking about Michael J. Fox.

[Majiffy]

There's also that.

[Majiffy]

And there's no serious mafia games being played with any skill anywhere else

Lol

[Majiffy]

Probably refusing to vote anyone because every other person is just simply so scummy and not good at playing mafia.

[Majiffy]

no shit posts (if you need to know what a shitpost is i can point you to some of my past games

^ Accurate. Junpei is a professional shitposter.

[Majiffy]

That is a terrifying hydra.

And that cat stares into my soul.