Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Tierce]

Granted, not all mods are supergood at that unwritten rule (coughbuttonscough) but that's the general idea.

Aha; that used to be the written rule, but VRK changed it in 2009 to make it easier to find replacements. At any point in the game, you should replace Newbies with Newbies unless no one is available for an unreasonable period of time.

If that is an 'unwritten rule' and it's

expressly

stated that players with any level of experience can replace into Newbie slots, don't expect newer mods to know.

I'm failing my Advanced MafiaScum History class.

I understand the interest of wanting to keep a similar level of play in a slot (in Newbie games and in any other game, really), but I prefer to go for the first person who contacts me and fits the experience requirements. Altogether, filling slots "first come, first serve" seems less disruptive for the game from a mod perspective than waiting a longer period for a potential newbie replacement.

[Tierce]

Note from the previous page--I agree that players need a decent amount of experience outside RTR before applying as an IC. The RTR games already have a different meta from the rest of the site, and while we want to get that from newbies (huzzah for new blood and non-stagnated playstyles!), the ICs should be able to give some impression of what it's like to play in a different kind of game. Even if it doesn't come across in the theory they teach, that knowledge should be there. We don't have this issue with our two primary ICs (Nacho and Thor), but I think a few of the players who sign up to IC as soon as they have five games are rushing things. Giving that service back to MS is admirable, but go try a few more other games at first and learn to adapt. You'll become a more versatile player for it. What's more, that kind of knowledge will make the newbies you're playing with more comfortable with the other queues, especially if you manage to take some time at the end of a game to offer commentary on their play.

Also somewhat related: while I appreciate the influx of new ICs when I mod, I tend to think that playing as an IC when you have little experience as specific alignments may be a bad idea. Personally, I only /inned to the IC queue once I felt I would be able to play a somewhat decent IC scum game. If you're going to be flaky as scum (or Town, depends on the person), in a role that NEEDS to be in the game to teach the newbies,

please

realize that the IC spot is not one you or the mods or anyone wants you to take. Newbies freeze up. While you might like to lurk, if you don't post, they won't post either and don't know which direction to take. It's a bad experience to have in a game and a bad habit to foster for future games of theirs.

/soapbox

[Tierce]

No.

In addition (yet somewhat related anyway), most Vengefuls are too fast and will not prepare newbies to 2-week deadlines. The current Newbie setup/deadline arrangement is more representative of the majority of games on the site than Vengefuls are.

[Tierce]

But umm... the 3 week deadline is a maximum, there's nothing actually stopping newbie mods from running a shorter deadline.

Actually there is--supposedly? It's a weird thing. I asked singer whether I could cut them down to two weeks, and she said no.

[Tierce]

The only thing I can tell you is that I asked the current listmod and was told to keep it at three weeks, Zach. What VRK did or did not do is not relevant to the present deadline rule.

[Tierce]

Flay, the point is that if that is what the listmod tells me to do, I don't contradict her directions. Whether or not she was "shoved into the job with little training" and whether those directions should or should not be followed is obviously not for me to decide, thus why I'm bringing it up as a rule she

did

enforce when asked about it.

[Tierce]

a) New set-ups being proposed;
b) Why do new games not start in batches more often (while still letting a one-game allowance for replacement potential);
c) What is the final say on how deadlines are supposed to work in the Newbie queue.

[Tierce]

I agree that the standards for being an IC could be a little bit more strict, but at the current moment, there's no real standard other than "don't be mean" and "even if you aren't good, know what you should be doing...sort of." What kind of concrete standards can we implement, that don't rely as heavily on my subjective judgement?

The purpose of the newbie queue is to instruct and acclimate new players to the site; as such, I think that ICs should have a certain number of finished games outside the newbie queue before applying (preferably not in the Micro queue, due to the small game dimensions there). This already happens in the great majority of the cases, but it's a good requirement to have set in place--if nothing else, it shows that the purpose of the newbie queue is not to have players ever-languishing in newbie games, but to prepare them for larger and more complex games if they so desire, and that they have a person in the game they can trust to have the knowledge necessary to acclimate them.

I'd be more inclined to a minimum of two games outside RtR than a single non-RtR game; most players who sign in to IC will have been outside the newbie queue for a while, anyway.

[Tierce]

quadz/singer: Anything new on this front? The Newbie queue is still using 2of4. Do we have a timeframe for this setup to be implemented? The only thing I see actually implemented from Post 624 is the games-started-in-batches bit.

[Tierce]

3. town 1-shot bulletproof, mafia goon, town tracker
6. mafia goon, town doctor, town tracker

do we care that the Tracker will automatically catch Mafia in setup 3 above (assuming they track a Mafia)? The BP Townie ability is passive, so he can't be tracked. I don't see an issue with it, just throwing it out there.

Not quite, though almost. Look at setup 6; it has a doctor. Before claims, the tracker in 3 doesn't know which setup he is in. If he tracks someone to a dead body, he's obviously following a goon, but he might track a goon to the BP and consequentially think he tracked the doctor in 6. It's still a situation that screws that scum over and confirms tracker AND BP if they are both alive in massclaim, though, but it takes some doing to get the tracker to track scum to that particular role.

[Tierce]

Arguably you have no business in the newbie queue if you have IC status and aren't willing to IC?

No? That's why we have the SE roles, people who are demonstrating what 'typical' play is in MS. Very few people bother to explain things to newbies in games outside RtR, so why should we make sure that

everyone will explain everything in RtR

? I understand it would be kind, and goodness knows there are ICs who don't really explain a lot by default (and SEs who are fine with explaining a lot by default), but it could end up with newbies being overly coddled and unable to take the plunge if you ensure that every experienced player in RtR will be willing to explain every little bit of mafia theory.

EDIT: Adding to this that many SEs really have little clue about site meta outside the Newbie queue to begin with; the current SE queue is majorly composed by mid-2012-onward players, iirc. There is nothing wrong with that, obviously, but I remember that the SEs (and the IC!) in my first newbie game were little more than newbies themselves. Letting a few experienced SEs play without forcing a teaching position on them seems like a much wiser choice than imposing an IC position on them should they dare to sign up to SE (in which case several people would probably not sign up to SE-IC at all).

We don't really ever run out of ICs. When the queue runs low, people sign up. It's just that they don't do it all that often on a regular basis, but since November 2011 I have yet to see a game pending to start because a starting IC has not been found.

[Tierce]

There's so much for them to learn just in breaking down your play after it's over and you explaining your play as necessary when it's over.

Crux of the issue, IMO. Some ICs bail after a game is over without providing feedback.