"Random" voting

[Yosarian2]

In newbie games, you don't really want to put the second vote on someone for no reason, because then in theory the two mafia people could jump on the bandwagon and lynch them. Of course, they probably won't unless they're really dumb, but meh, you've still got to be a little careful.

Anyway, instead of random votes, what about metagame votes? As in "with nothing else to go on, at the start day 1 you vote for either the player who's worst at being a good guy, or for the player who's the best at playing scum" or something like that?

Anyway, though, the thing that annoys me about random votes is when people SAY they're random votes. If everyone just voted without saying if they were random, it might get some interesting reactions or start discussion or let a cop drop a hint that'll matter later, but if everyone gets on and right away says

random vote:jimbob

then jimbob just ignores it, so does everyone else, and it dosn't seem to actually stir conversation or get reactions out of anyone but noobs.

[Yosarian2]

Jumping on a second voter is just as spurrious as the random vote was in the first place.

Perhaps. At least it gets people talking, though, which random voting never ever does.

[Yosarian2]

As in "with nothing else to go on, at the start day 1 you vote for either the player who's worst at being a good guy, or for the player who's the best at playing scum" or something like that?

To add to what jeep said, I am very against the first, as killing off bad players automatically discourages them from getting better. I am against the latter because it's a cop out ("I'm not good enough to catch you if you're scum, so I'll just vote you automatically every time"). Besides, most good players are good on both sides.

I never said that the town should automatically kill off bad players, I just mentioned starting out with a vote on a bad player instead of a completly random vote, and then changing your vote later if you have something to work with. Of course it's subjective, but I don't see it discouraging them from getting better; just the contrary, in fact.

Basically, I think that if you have nothing better to say or nothing else to add, especally at the start of day 1, a random or semi-random vote can be a way to at least create a little bit of content and advance the game, especally if you don't do a random vote every game. However, I don't think random votes should be called random votes; if you're going to vote randomally or semi-randomally, you should just say

vote:someone

and see how everyone responds to that.

Also, for those people who think random voting is a good stratagy, why do it only at the start of day 1? Granted that later in the game you hopefully have more information, but sometimes the entire town just gets stuck and has no idea what to do, everyone stops posting, and you don't have any idea who is scum either or how to proceed from there. Would random voting (or voting without explaining why, in a "this may or may not be a random vote" kind of move) then in an attempt to get conversation going again be a pro-town move at that point?

[Yosarian2]

Basically, I think that if you have nothing better to say or nothing else to add, especally at the start of day 1, a random or semi-random vote can be a way to at least create a little bit of content and advance the game

And I think otherwise. What content does it add? How does it advance the game? It's just a waste of space.

Personally, I usually prefer to start by discussing stratagy, or trying to analyze the night-scene or theme for hints or something like that, but in a lot of normal games that's really not an option. So, what then? If you don't have anything else worth speculating on, and you are going to make the first post in a new game, what do you do? You can either attack someone else randomally or semi-randomally, or you can post a "hello everyone" kind of post; unless you want to do something drastic like role-claim on post 1, I can't think of any other real options you have. And I prefer a random vote to a "hello everyone" kind of post, because at least a random vote forces people who have information (like scum and possibly cops or masons) to make choices; does a scum vote for another scum, or does he vote for someone he knows is innocent, or does he "random" vote at all? Does a cop drop a random vote on someone he knows to be scum, or avoid random voting someone he knows is clean? Do masons avoid voting each other? These are small details, but can occasionally prove useful to refer back to later or to analyze if you have nothing else to go on; for example, masons almost never random vote each other, but scum sometimes do, so if you see a group of people who random vote each other but later claim mason you might want to question that. I have also seen cops drop hints in their random votes that don't become clear until after the cop is dead.

Also, for those people who think random voting is a good stratagy

I never thought I would see "random voting" and "good strategy" in the same sentence. Random voting is not a strategy at all. At best, it's a harmless waste.

Everything in Mafia is a stratagy. If a person says they are random voting because it encourages discussion, what they most likely mean is that they want to encourage discussion because they believe that more discussion makes it easier to catch scum. The question is, is random voting ever a better stratagy then not random voting, and I think that there are times when it is.

Again, let's take the most basic situation. You are going to make the first post in a normal (non-theamed) game. Let's say that this game starts with day instead of night, so you don't have a night scene to analyze, and let's say that you are a basic townie with no information. How would you start the game?

[Yosarian2]

We are clearly talking about different things. I am talking about completely random draw-a-name-out-of-a-hat voting. You're not.

I could *maybe* see random votes as useful so that cops can hide some information in pseudo-random votes for later use without the mafia immediately catching on, but I find that dubious at best.

Well, I'm talking about a situation where many or most players show up and place a vote without saying why. Most of those votes will be "random", but it is assumed that only those who start the game with no information will vote completly randomally; a person with information, like a scum, will choose how to use that information in choosing their "random vote".

At the very least, if a cop random votes person X day 1, I would assume that the cop did not get an innocent result for that person night 1. It's not much information, granted, but it is information. Same goes for if a mason gets killed night 2, I can look back and say "Well, he random voted for person X, so I assume person X is not his mason partner".

I almost addressed "Everything in Mafia is a strategy." in my last post, as I was pretty sure someone would disagree with me. So, if we're going to get semantic...

1. No, random voting is not a strategy. A strategy is "an elaborate and systematic plan of action." The random voting that usually occurs in Mafia certainly isn't an elaborate plan, and it can hardly be called systematic when the basic idea is "I'll random vote until something better comes up".

(shrug) I would discribe "everyone shows up and places a random vote right away on day one" as a general stratagy; in fact, it's one of the most commonly stratagies used on mafiascum. The only question is, is it a good stratagy or not. But if you want, call it a "tactic" instead, it dosn't change anything.

2. Even if we relax the definition of strategy, the strategy you're talking about here is "get people to post more so I can catch scum".

3. Random voting could be a part of that, except that random voting itself does not encourage discussion. Discussing things encourages discussion. Random voting and discussion are polar opposites.

I would say "not posting" and "discussion" are polar opposites. Any even vaguly game-related post can encourage discussion or contain information which can be used later, if the poster intended it to or not.

5. No, random voting is never a better strategy than not random voting, unless you are admitting that your Mafia playing skills are worse than random.

Ok, first of all, I'm talking about random voting to encourage discussion, not random lynching. I would say that my mafia playing skills are better then random (even if only slightly sometimes ) but they're only better then random if people post. I don't think the current obsesson with "everyone must get on and random vote someone else and it must always be completly random" is always the best way to encourage discussion, but sometimes it's just the best you can do at that moment, and I think it is better then posting nothing.

Again, let's take the most basic situation. You are going to make the first post in a normal (non-theamed) game. Let's say that this game starts with day instead of night, so you don't have a night scene to analyze, and let's say that you are a basic townie with no information. How would you start the game?

It depends on the game, the role I have, the other players, etc., and could range from something funny and silly, to putting focus on a particular player that I feel I can get something out of, to divine inspiration (bow to The List!). Any of which are going to give me something more substantial to analyze than "random vote: ____".

Ok...so you sometimes like putting focus on a particlar player you feel that you can get something out of by doing that. That's actually a perfect example of the kind of "metagame vote" I was talking about before. Remember I'm not talking about completly random voting, I'm talking about voting early on day 1 without giving a reason, which may or may not be random. Not quite the same thing.

And yeah, sometimes you can speculate on the game, or make a joke, or start trying to outguess the mod, something else like that. Sometimes there's no good way to do any of that, or at least not one that you see. At that point, then yeah, I would say voting without saying why, perhaps without a real reason at all, is a slightly more pro-town move then not posting at all or just posting a "hi everyone" message.