Shell Game (Day 4)

[Oblivion]

I think dunnstral is a bit scummy but i don't want to pretend to be solving yet. I might elaborate on this later.
Or probably not.

As the player in this list it has played with before, and thus the one it has mental modeling of, it would be very interested in seeing your elaboration sooner if possible. Having an understanding of you will help it place a foothold in a game of this size.

[Oblivion]

My thoughts so far:

Sunflower in post 13 struck me the wrong way as I wasn't expecting that post from fireisredsir, and then they had a lot of filler type posts. They then call me towny and I'm not sure what they are basing that off of either with the 4 posts I had before.

ActionDan's post 86 rubs me the wrong way because I don't agree and don't know how they reached their conclusions. Perhaps they can explain.

It... is a little concerned by this. Ignoring the part about Sunflower, what part of ActionDan's posting was strangely reached to you? This slot is calling the player who scumclaimed as an opening scum, which it thinks doesn't need much explination? Certainly there's ways to end up on either side of that read but explaining?

You appear to be an experienced player, can you explain to it why this read in particular is rubbing you the wrong way for not explaining their conclusions when half of it appears somewhat Face Value to it?

[Oblivion]

I will RVS as long as I feel like it, thanks.

What even makes you so sure it was RVS though?

Can you explain why you are taking a hostile/adversarial position to this line of inquery? It has a hard time believing you can't see that your entrance is above the line of suspicious and overtly drawing attention, so it wants to understand what the motivation of your doing this is? What do you aim to accomplish with this tact?

[Oblivion]

I will RVS as long as I feel like it, thanks.

What even makes you so sure it was RVS though?

Can you explain why you are taking a hostile/adversarial position to this line of inquery? It has a hard time believing you can't see that your entrance is above the line of suspicious and overtly drawing attention, so it wants to understand what the motivation of your doing this is? What do you aim to accomplish with this tact?

What comes across as hostile to you? And what's suspicious and drawing attention about my entrance?

It is not going to allow you to deflect a question with more questions. It will happily answer them once you answer it, especially considering your questions are sort of... basic? Like, it thinks you know the answers it is going to give to your questions, so it wonders why you ask them.

But regardless, it will answer yours once you answer its.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion town

And probably hasn't looked at Firebringer's sig.

Can you answer the question, though? It would like an answer.

[Oblivion]

To those who have expressed town reads on it, can it ask for a deeper look into the why behind those sentiments from each of you, for the purpose of its mental models?

For CSF, can you explain which of the questions it asked gave that reaction and why?

[Oblivion]

Ayo wassup homies
Herr Mitt checking in

VOTE: firebagels

Nobody lies in a game of mafia so this bagel must be claiming truthfully.

This entry feels a little contrived. What are your takes on slots outside Bagel?

[Oblivion]

To those who have expressed town reads on it, can it ask for a deeper look into the why behind those sentiments from each of you, for the purpose of its mental models?

For CSF, can you explain which of the questions it asked gave that reaction and why?

your questions feel like you're trying to probe but are latching onto the wrong things in a way that feels +scum. It's mostly gut but I'll try to articulate-

Spoiler:

My thoughts so far:

Sunflower in post 13 struck me the wrong way as I wasn't expecting that post from fireisredsir, and then they had a lot of filler type posts. They then call me towny and I'm not sure what they are basing that off of either with the 4 posts I had before.

ActionDan's post 86 rubs me the wrong way because I don't agree and don't know how they reached their conclusions. Perhaps they can explain.

It... is a little concerned by this. Ignoring the part about Sunflower, what part of ActionDan's posting was strangely reached to you? This slot is calling the player who scumclaimed as an opening scum, which it thinks doesn't need much explination? Certainly there's ways to end up on either side of that read but explaining?

You appear to be an experienced player, can you explain to it why this read in particular is rubbing you the wrong way for not explaining their conclusions when half of it appears somewhat Face Value to it?

For this one, dunnstral already gave a different read on sunflower, which was 50% of Dan's list.

And like... What's the harm in asking Dan to articulate reasons when the game is this early? Even if the answer may be obvious to you.

It turns out the answer probably wasn't what you expected. What did you make of that btw?

Spoiler:

I will RVS as long as I feel like it, thanks.

What even makes you so sure it was RVS though?

Can you explain why you are taking a hostile/adversarial position to this line of inquery? It has a hard time believing you can't see that your entrance is above the line of suspicious and overtly drawing attention, so it wants to understand what the motivation of your doing this is? What do you aim to accomplish with this tact?

Did you miss posts 28 and 30 in your read through?

Setting that aside though, I don't really agree that the post is hostile

It looked at Dunn's post and thought that his writing about Action Dan felt contrived in a way as to make his arguments, and so wanted to pick at him to determine where he was coming from. It feels like it is worth attacking this to understand his approach.

It feels that Bagel's response to being poked by Morph was absolutely defensive/hostile over responsive, which it feels was confirmed by how it then responded to it by deflecting its question with more questions. To this point, its question still hasn't been answered.

In truth, its questions are designed to develop a mental model of players at this point. To see how they respond to questions about their approach to the game, so it can get a baseline to read them from later.

What confuses it is that you are saying that asking questions towards players to garner their intent is pro-town but call its questioning anti-town, despite it being pretty clear and apparent that it is asking questions to determine how people think and approach the game state. It can't help but wonder if this is because it prefers to ask questions from aggressors to determine their mindset instead of asking questions from those in already defensive positions who have their guard up?

[Oblivion]

Oblivion I am loving your spunk

Good to know. Can you answer its question on why you have it as a townread when you have a chance?

[Oblivion]

Mostly vibes

You came into the game engaging heavily and asking questions in a way that felt pro-town

And while I don't necessarily agree with some of your conclusions, I believe that you believe the things you are saying

What are the conclusions you think it has reached that you disagree with?

[Oblivion]

Your thoughts on Dunn and Firebagel

What do you think its thoughts about Dunn and Fire are?

[Oblivion]

Oh boy. It has the sense it is going to struggle with the speed of this game. It will begin to read at this moment, from where it left off, but if users had questions for it sufficient it could engage with them and begin mental modelling it would strongly prefer live interaction to combing through 30 pages.

[Oblivion]

You seem to be concerned by both and I disagree with your stated reasons, particularly with Firebagel. I don't think anything about the quoted post you pointed out was hostile.

Dunn is currently my strongest town-read, for whatever that's worth seven pages into the game.

It actually has Firebagel as town. The issue is, the manner in which bagel entered created a lot of chaos that it needs to sort through. There is value for it in being able to become certain beyond certain doubt levels of Bagel's mental model and to mark them as town, because if it can do that it can reliably stake its life against killing them and prevent what looked like to it as an easy elimination that may occur later. To be honest, it worries about that kind of thing. It would rather solve slots like that now than in many many pages where paranoia takes over. It trusts itself in that manner.

It... will need an explaination of how Dunn can be your strongest town read. If possible, please only use evidence from Page 7 or before, since that is where this read originates from.

[Oblivion]

Your answer kinda answers your question. Why are you so curious about this?

I am trying to figure out why you ended up responding to that reads list seriously. Like I think that that reads list voiced between 0 to two (MAX) actual reads in in, so seeing you respond to it seriously raised questions.

For reference, Pooky's reads list was:
-The three people pooky bantered with about being/claiming scum on page 1 in the scum pile (15, 17, 20)
-Firebringer in the highest possible town pile, as consistent with the dynamic between the two, where firebringer claims scum, and pooky calls him lock town, and firebringer pretends to be offended that pooky could even consider that a possibility. This played out in this very game before the reads list.
-PenguinPower, who has made 0 posts, in town. Once again, this appears to be a Pooky+PP dynamic, as I am like 90% sure I have seen pooky say basically the same thing as fb's 80.

That leaves the only two that had any chance of having *any* substance behind them being the STD and the Ydra/skitter hydra reads.

I am not familiar with pooky having a dynamic with them like the PP or FB one, so that is where I see the possibility of 0-2 actual reads being expressed here, but overall this just seems like the culmination of his early banter.

So seeing you respond, with specific critiques, made me wonder how you got there.

There is a lot to dive into here, but this post has a very interesting mentality. It is going to take a few guesses which have every possibility to be wrong, but you come across as paranoid or afraid here. How can it explain... like if you were staring down the barrel of something you have a healthy fear and respect for arguing that another thing in the distance isn't being given enough respect or concern for its threat either?

Can you elaborate on what your mental model of Morph and Pooky as players are is? For reference, that is simply how you view their playstyles, capabilities, talents, failings and such, and your confidence level in being able to interpret them for a correct result a % of the time with this knowledge.

[Oblivion]

NGL I (Neuter) was pretty pleased to be at the top of your middle until I realized it was probably because we were first in the player list order.

Is this slot the kind of player to be this bold and open with statements like this in general? This feels like something that it would generally townread a player for having the bravery to say.

[Oblivion]

NGL I (Neuter) was pretty pleased to be at the top of your middle until I realized it was probably because we were first in the player list order.

Is this slot the kind of player to be this bold and open with statements like this in general? This feels like something that it would generally townread a player for having the bravery to say.

Yes, that is on brand for that slot.

Tell it more about your impression of that slot and how it approaches games, and if possible can you compare it to how you approach games by manner of contrast?

[Oblivion]

i wanna explain things but some people don't like that for some reason zzzzzzzzz

Does this response seem off to you too, morph? Context was right around the whole dethy reveal.

Wait, what do you mean by dethy reveal?

[Oblivion]

NGL I (Neuter) was pretty pleased to be at the top of your middle until I realized it was probably because we were first in the player list order.

Is this slot the kind of player to be this bold and open with statements like this in general? This feels like something that it would generally townread a player for having the bravery to say.

Yes, that is on brand for that slot.

Tell it more about your impression of that slot and how it approaches games, and if possible can you compare it to how you approach games by manner of contrast?

We approach games in a very similar manner, with them being much more comfortable in a leading spot than myself. Both of us tend towards a more process of elimination style of play, preferably more conversational. They also are more focused on reserving opinions until they have data, whereas I can tend to be a bit headstrong.

Does this suffice?

Chuck Rab

It helps quite a bit. May it provide a hypothetical situation and have you describe how you would handle it and then how you believe morph would?

[Oblivion]

Sure, and I’m sure morph will tease me if I’m incorrect.

You are town and a player claims a guitly against you, how do you react?

[Oblivion]

Sure, and I’m sure morph will tease me if I’m incorrect.

You are town and a player claims a guitly against you, how do you react?

I’m much more likely to leverage my towncred and try to strong arm them down (basically put it in a situation of who is townier)? I’d say morph also would try their best to survive, but would focus more on showing why the other person is scum. although both of us are very aware that a one for one trade is perfectly fine and would shrug.

Interesting. Thank you! It has a better understanding of your mental model now!

[Oblivion]

it is going to try and go understand what Dethy means

[Oblivion]

And so it is confirmed that within that neighbourhood this is the setup that exists? Or this is speculation? Also, to which players does this refer?

[Oblivion]

huh. Allow it to process.

[Oblivion]

If this is true and matches the link given exactly... it would assume the best play would to be look anywhere but within those 5 today. Two cops whose results can actually be interpreted for results, with time and flips and two that can't? Makes little sense to do scum's work for them.

So let that resolve as it goes and simply look elsewhere to kill today?

[Oblivion]

If this is true and matches the link given exactly... it would assume the best play would to be look anywhere but within those 5 today. Two cops whose results can actually be interpreted for results, with time and flips and two that can't? Makes little sense to do scum's work for them.

So let that resolve as it goes and simply look elsewhere to kill today?

But if we kill the scum, we essentially have a four person masonry scum has to clear through.

Is that worth doing when we can simply treat the base group as a masonry REGARDLESS especially if it includes a traitor and not a scum who can even inform, allow the neighbourhood to police itself and garner results based on night results?

It is aware this is Shell Game and so relying TOO much on results isn't a good idea, given action interuption likelyhoods but even to start it thinks that if we remove 5 players and look at a 17 player game, it thinks there's 3 or 4 scum within that right? 4/17 is better odds than 1/5, 3/17 is comperable, so we're not actually increasing odds and we're losing possible value.

That is its takeaway.

[Oblivion]

@5 person hood, can ideally two of you independently ask the mod if your sanity flips on death, and report back?

Mmm, this would be good info to have, it agrees.

[Oblivion]

Oh boy. It has the sense it is going to struggle with the speed of this game. It will begin to read at this moment, from where it left off, but if users had questions for it sufficient it could engage with them and begin mental modelling it would strongly prefer live interaction to combing through 30 pages.

Word. I just spent like two hours reading to get caught up.

I have some concerns about the setup and how everyone is just accepting that a hood is set up a particular way, given that this game is literally called "shell game" and the mod clearly knows what that is.

Well, a deAAAthy is in and of itself, a shell game, of sorts. Hence the thematic. I'm sure the other hood has a different sort of fuckery ready for us.

I'm not at all familiar with a dethy so I'm maybe not understanding how it plays out, but I don't get where the shell game aspect comes in if it's just exactly what's expected. It doesn't feel like the hood being thought of as a dethy really even changes how we'd see the alignment of its players. We expect one in the five to be scum regardless.

From its understsanding, because the scum know that everyone is a cop, that scum will also claim a cop result of a questionable sanity, and because players know not their sanities (it thinks?) then it becomes a puzzle of "if, then" that one can possibly follow, but only with 1 wrong elimination to give, and thus only one night of results to use to begin with?

So.... shell game of what to believe and what is real and what is fake and such. If it understands correctly.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion do you have any questions for us?

It is very interested in picking your brain, yes. The issue is it doesn't know where to begin. Can you... hmmm perhaps with a mental modeling check.

Do you agree with Crab's interpretation of you?

[Oblivion]

There is a lot to dive into here, but this post has a very interesting mentality. It is going to take a few guesses which have every possibility to be wrong, but you come across as paranoid or afraid here. How can it explain... like if you were staring down the barrel of something you have a healthy fear and respect for arguing that another thing in the distance isn't being given enough respect or concern for its threat either?

I have no idea what you are saying here, at least in how it relates to me?

My approach to Morph started at mild suspicion at ffery's response to pooky's, but wanted to get them to talk more about that reaction before making that obvious, with a lighthearted / inquisitive tone for 129.

When ffery first sidestepped the question, I decided to make it more direct that I thought that her answer could prove valuable to me, to pivot us back to my question 287.

When she sidestepped again, I realized that I was not getting the answer that I wanted, and so I decided to just lay some of the foundation of why I started asking questions 317 to force a dialogue.

Her response was to keep asking me probing questions about what I was getting at. At that point I figured I simply wasn't going to get a straight answer, so I laid it out there that I thought it might mean she was scum 326.

And then cabd and ffery both promptly declared me town, and ffery gave me a straight answer (although a fairly unsatisfactory one) 334.

I realized that she had uno reverse carded me, and even though I had started the conversation trying to get a better feel for her alignment, her entire focus during that conversation was to gauge the thoughts behind my line of questioning to determine my alignment. And she is the one who got what she wanted.

After thinking about it for a while, I ended up thinking that that seems like a town mindset, because it looks like she was more worried about divining my alignment then she cared about how I read her at any stage of our dialogue.

Can you elaborate on what your mental model of Morph and Pooky as players are is? For reference, that is simply how you view their playstyles, capabilities, talents, failings and such, and your confidence level in being able to interpret them for a correct result a % of the time with this knowledge.

This is a fairly loaded set of questions, that I don't really know how to answer, other then to just say that I think all three are really good players, as both alignments.

You truly don't understand what it is asking? Of course it's loaded, it intended for it to be loaded. The goal was that you think. It... mmm.

[Oblivion]

You truly don't understand what it is asking? Of course it's loaded, it intended for it to be loaded. The goal was that you think. It... mmm.

I think I could only answer your question, as asked, succinctly if I had a very rigid view of other people's play.

And because I do not have a short succienct way to encapsulate "their playstyles, capabilities, talents, failings and such" for all three people in question, I would end up writing essays if I actually attempted to give you an answer that feels satisfactory to me for the question asked.

So: yeah "I think all three of them are really great players" is the best youre gonna get with such an open ended question.

And if it said the essay would be massively helpful? It... well, frankly it would have been happy with abbreviated versions but if you can only do it as an essay it would read and digest that essay happily.

The manner in which it plays mafia is to attempt to understand the whole of a player and then utilize that knowledge to temper expectations and poke at outcomes. If it can't understand a player, it will struggle to read them. It likes seeing how other players view other players not simply because it gives a somewhat unbiased view for it to then corroborate but also because...

The manner in which it is presented is indicative of alignment in some capacity for it, it thinks. How others think about other players is one thing but how you present another player? Even if you try to be neutral, that's a choice too, no?

[Oblivion]

i tr loke i think

Welcome to 25 pages ago!

Okay, with this level of confidence you must have something in your read pool that is of interest.

Please provide your top 3 town and top 1 scum reads at this moment in time. It will accept any level of justification including gut, but it would like more than just the names.

[Oblivion]

The scum in the deathy has to play a shell game where they have to pick a faked alignment, and stick to it. While constantly trying NOT to be narrowed down into a 1v1 vs whoever actually has their assigned sanity.

This plays out like the mafia in the deathy is going for a shell game, they want to last as long as possible with misdireciton and ambiguity. The more sleights of hand and "mist" you can get away with, the better your long term odds, but in the end you WILL die, so you're playing for maximum chaos agent while alive knowing you cannot endgame.

I dunno, playing a game you're doomed to lose in spite of your misdirection sounds like the opposite of a shell game to me.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html

Yeah I can't resist the chance to link to Order of the Stick, fite me.

Doomed to die does not equate to doomed to lose. Especially as the scum in an embedded dethy.

You do make it sound like you disagree with our approach and would rather go for the big win of flipping a scum within the deathy.

This fits with how your personality was described. Is this accurate, or do you agree with its take?

[Oblivion]

Sure, no problemo. Sync'd or off the cuff?

Off the cuff feels better, it thinks. Sync'd implies that you have time to collect yourself and make a decision which, while valuable if it was certain of your alignment, this is more to try and determine that than for your perfect solve.

[Oblivion]

Town reads....

Marci, because this is just NOT how Marciscum handles the entire unraveling of this death info the main thread, ever.

Crabs, massive mindmeld.

Luke, see luke's recent post where he correctly lays out how he got shuffled and uno-reverse-carded.



Scumread, klick and sunflower. Due to the Deathy, this is an either-or scenario but we don't really think it's outside those two anyways.Klick is more my take, Sunflower is more Spay's take, we're evaluating both but currently voting Klick between the two.

It felt realy good about the manner in which Crab handled its question. It especially liked how Crab sort of skipped over the idea of "checking to see if the guilty claimed on us is not some kind of shell game error" and went right for a 1v1? It felt like it was a town mindset, so we are with you there.

Luke's confusion and... unwillingness to engage with our desire to drag info from him was a little off putting but also notably more likely to come from a townie who doesn't care. That said, it doesn't have.... the same presence that others have in this game. It gets the sense this is a game of many players who know each other and it's ability to be... imposing will be less than otherwise it might be able to do. Even still, it can get behind that.

Sell it on Marci, because it is only getting surface level from her and it feels frustrated reading her posts. That said, it is very open to being sold on this one because it has an inherent bias to wanting to kill annoying things, so it already is trying to counterbalance that feeling.

[Oblivion]

ngl anything that oblivion says goes over my head because some of it reads as if a bot wrote it.

See? Annoying.

[Oblivion]

For me, Marci, Hermit Crab and Luke are the top three townreads.

Marci because she was so visibly uncomfortable and confused by her role/neighborhood and very suspicious of the hood until things began to click for her both within the hood and externally, in the game thread. I could see the gears turning (and grinding) in her posts. Everything about the way she revealed what was going on just built onto that foundation in a very natural and unstructured way. I also think that scum Marci would want to give us much more of a wide berth than she has.

Hermit Crab as a hidden hydra wouldn't go out of their way to support us as they have. There would be no need and we wouldn't think twice about a more cautious approach from an unknown quantity. And we're enough of a threat as scum that it would be a no-brainer to wait and see what town actually makes of us this game. There's also an incredible amount of mindmeld going on with Hermit Crab which I believe doesn't happen this way if they're scum.

Luke as town has a POV (that I don't want to discuss in detail because it's filed under competitive advantage) that we feel confident in reading when we see it. I interacted with him and pushed back at him long enough for us both to feel confident about that POV being present.

If I were pushing outside Marci's neighborhood, I'd be voting Spiffeh at the moment for this post. We discussed whether to vote in the dethy or outside of it before putting our Klick vote down. The deciding factor was the dethy players' preferences for cleaning their hood.

Sync Achieved indeed.

What are your thoughts on Dunnstraal?

[Oblivion]

For what it’s worth, we feel similarly about Luke and marci. Essentially, Marci’s behavior around the outing of the dethy is probably the most important thing you need to read.

Can you link it to this moment so it doesn't have to go searching for the sake of the conversation it is having with Morph?

[Oblivion]

Tch. Marci's town. That's frustrating as fuck. It really wanted to be able to kill her for how annoying she is being, instead it has to ignore her now.

Given that we're making some assumptions about possible traitors in that dethy, it doesn't even think there's any wiggle room about it. Marci is definitely town.

[Oblivion]

It would like to go cry in a corner now, if Morph is done engaging with us. If not, it would like to continue to pick at morph's brain.

[Oblivion]

For me, Marci, Hermit Crab and Luke are the top three townreads.

Marci because she was so visibly uncomfortable and confused by her role/neighborhood and very suspicious of the hood until things began to click for her both within the hood and externally, in the game thread. I could see the gears turning (and grinding) in her posts. Everything about the way she revealed what was going on just built onto that foundation in a very natural and unstructured way. I also think that scum Marci would want to give us much more of a wide berth than she has.

Hermit Crab as a hidden hydra wouldn't go out of their way to support us as they have. There would be no need and we wouldn't think twice about a more cautious approach from an unknown quantity. And we're enough of a threat as scum that it would be a no-brainer to wait and see what town actually makes of us this game. There's also an incredible amount of mindmeld going on with Hermit Crab which I believe doesn't happen this way if they're scum.

Luke as town has a POV (that I don't want to discuss in detail because it's filed under competitive advantage) that we feel confident in reading when we see it. I interacted with him and pushed back at him long enough for us both to feel confident about that POV being present.

If I were pushing outside Marci's neighborhood, I'd be voting Spiffeh at the moment for this post. We discussed whether to vote in the dethy or outside of it before putting our Klick vote down. The deciding factor was the dethy players' preferences for cleaning their hood.

Sync Achieved indeed.

What are your thoughts on Dunnstraal?

I think Dunnstral's been scumhunting and pushing people pretty hard once there was more to sink his teeth into. My read had gone leantown before then but his reaction to Spiffeh re ActionDan made a pretty big positive impression.

Really? It felt quite the opposite. The reason it asked is because you earmarked Spiffeh for scum and from its current engagements with Spiffeh, it has an internal note to flip Dunnstraal if Spiffeh is scum.

[Oblivion]

It didn't even really give much of its stance on either Bagel or Dunn, it only poked at them. Spiffeh then townread it but tried to sway its percieved opinion of Bagel and Dunn. It... had very little read on Dunn, only poking at Dunn to see where it went and Bagel for the chance to solidify its read on what it felt was an immenently killable slot.

Spiffeh's conversation with us felt wrong, in so so so many ways. And if it had to guess it felt like... Spiffeh was angling at something that it hadn't even thought of yet? And it thinks that somewhat informs Dunnstraal scum if Spiffeh is.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion, I have a question for you. How do you feel about how your interrogation of Firebagel [didn't] resolve? How are you reading her?

It did actually answer this when it returned to poke at Spiffeh. It isn't able to 100% lock it down yet, but for us, we are unwilling to kill Bagel for the moment. It thinks the slot is town. It thinks if that slot is scum it would have to have been coached to do what it did, and it has a lock on the current mental model. It won't expect that coaching to last the whole game, and so.... it expects to be able to generate a 100% lock down on it within 2 game days. So it won't kill them today and it will be able to affirm or discard its current townread on that slot by tomorrow, it thinks. It feels relatively confident.

[Oblivion]

i am trying to make a readslist but it is very hard and a lot of this game feels like jello. ama for like 10 mins

What is your thoughts on how the current game state looks from a voting standpoint? This question is open ended, interpet it however you like and provide that answer.

[Oblivion]

For me, Marci, Hermit Crab and Luke are the top three townreads.

Marci because she was so visibly uncomfortable and confused by her role/neighborhood and very suspicious of the hood until things began to click for her both within the hood and externally, in the game thread. I could see the gears turning (and grinding) in her posts. Everything about the way she revealed what was going on just built onto that foundation in a very natural and unstructured way. I also think that scum Marci would want to give us much more of a wide berth than she has.

Hermit Crab as a hidden hydra wouldn't go out of their way to support us as they have. There would be no need and we wouldn't think twice about a more cautious approach from an unknown quantity. And we're enough of a threat as scum that it would be a no-brainer to wait and see what town actually makes of us this game. There's also an incredible amount of mindmeld going on with Hermit Crab which I believe doesn't happen this way if they're scum.

Luke as town has a POV (that I don't want to discuss in detail because it's filed under competitive advantage) that we feel confident in reading when we see it. I interacted with him and pushed back at him long enough for us both to feel confident about that POV being present.

If I were pushing outside Marci's neighborhood, I'd be voting Spiffeh at the moment for this post. We discussed whether to vote in the dethy or outside of it before putting our Klick vote down. The deciding factor was the dethy players' preferences for cleaning their hood.

Sync Achieved indeed.

What are your thoughts on Dunnstraal?

I think Dunnstral's been scumhunting and pushing people pretty hard once there was more to sink his teeth into. My read had gone leantown before then but his reaction to Spiffeh re ActionDan made a pretty big positive impression.

Really? It felt quite the opposite. The reason it asked is because you earmarked Spiffeh for scum and from its current engagements with Spiffeh, it has an internal note to flip Dunnstraal if Spiffeh is scum.

I've seen players come to that kind of perspective on two players pretty often, when I'm not playing on that level at that point. I think it's a difference in how I form reads. Neuterhalf and I are in agreement on Dunn for now, so I'm probably not looking to go there next if Spiffeh flips scum.

Disappointing.

Let's discuss the 4 non marci members of the neighbourhood. Can you re-enlighten it about those names? It was STD... ugh.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion, I have a question for you. How do you feel about how your interrogation of Firebagel [didn't] resolve? How are you reading her?

It did actually answer this when it returned to poke at Spiffeh. It isn't able to 100% lock it down yet, but for us, we are unwilling to kill Bagel for the moment. It thinks the slot is town. It thinks if that slot is scum it would have to have been coached to do what it did, and it has a lock on the current mental model. It won't expect that coaching to last the whole game, and so.... it expects to be able to generate a 100% lock down on it within 2 game days. So it won't kill them today and it will be able to affirm or discard its current townread on that slot by tomorrow, it thinks. It feels relatively confident.

My thought at the time of your interactions was "awfully cheeky if scum", hence mild townlean. I wasn't sure if you were "done for now", though. Now I am.

Yes, it doesn't have any intention or trying to prod back at Bagel for the moment. Today's conversations with that slot if they continue to occur will likely be based upon trying to come to conclusions on reads with it, but frankly, this game is too large and if it can earmark a player as town, it might just ignore that player for a while and search in the unknown. It certainly has zero plans to interact further with Marci.

[Oblivion]

Luke's confusion and... unwillingness to engage with our desire to drag info from him was a little off putting but also notably more likely to come from a townie who doesn't care.

I guess I didn't come at our conversation how you wanted me to, but I did come at it trying to engage with and help you. Like, that was the entire purpose behind me offering you a play by play of my interaction with morph.

I was offering a look into my thought process, my impression of what morph was doing in that exchange, and my conclusions on what that meant for their alignment.

None of that helped me any, and I hoped it would help you see both me and my thoughts on morph's alignment more clearly, so I wrote it out.

Your assistance was noted, but ultimately useless because the manner in which you approached felt strongly like it was... Point by Point.

It feels there is no real manner in which to differentiate a scum variant of you, from how it understands you which isn't a great mental model admittedly but just based on current baselines, from a town version of you writing that post. It thinks especially that you sound... guarded? Guarded is a good word. It's not suspicious to be guarded or anything, but it feels like you are.... not... words are hard.

You're not openly forthcoming. Your cards are held and it is trying to hack your brain and you're denying it. That is how it feels.

[Oblivion]

i think the biggest ! things or changes from before on that list are

- spiffeh whose recent posts after interacting with me were strange to me he felt defensive over being questioned about how he engaged with me
- dannflor i dont have a great way to verbalize this rn but he feels bizarre. my gypyx read has her there because she also noticed that too
- pooky i think is strange because usually when people get really huffy and puffy over stuff and are like "kill me and then them" i err towards them being town but with him i feel like that's in his Wolf Wheelhouse to break out easily so idk what to make of it
- there's a lot of goop in the middle of the top section i think that if i do not have all of the wolves in the bottom tiers for both parts of the list i's in like penguin/csf/

oblivion (the last one i want to revisit tmrw because some of its recent posting pinged me and i think its for the questions being asked?)

- i think the most ?? of my reads in the bottom part is probably dragons because in-thread has been just fine but from what ive gleaned from posting his neighborhood stuff has been good

It would like elaboration on this.

[Oblivion]

- pooky i think is strange because usually when people get really huffy and puffy over stuff and are like "kill me and then them" i err towards them being town but with him i feel like that's in his Wolf Wheelhouse to break out easily so idk what to make of it

what am i being huffy and puffy about again

Why do you feel like a bag full of venomous snakes? Like... just reading you makes me itch.

Every time it reads one of your posts, the first impression it gets is "this is someone who could cut my throat with a smile while telling me about how beautiful the sunset is".

[Oblivion]

For me, Marci, Hermit Crab and Luke are the top three townreads.

Marci because she was so visibly uncomfortable and confused by her role/neighborhood and very suspicious of the hood until things began to click for her both within the hood and externally, in the game thread. I could see the gears turning (and grinding) in her posts. Everything about the way she revealed what was going on just built onto that foundation in a very natural and unstructured way. I also think that scum Marci would want to give us much more of a wide berth than she has.

Hermit Crab as a hidden hydra wouldn't go out of their way to support us as they have. There would be no need and we wouldn't think twice about a more cautious approach from an unknown quantity. And we're enough of a threat as scum that it would be a no-brainer to wait and see what town actually makes of us this game. There's also an incredible amount of mindmeld going on with Hermit Crab which I believe doesn't happen this way if they're scum.

Luke as town has a POV (that I don't want to discuss in detail because it's filed under competitive advantage) that we feel confident in reading when we see it. I interacted with him and pushed back at him long enough for us both to feel confident about that POV being present.

If I were pushing outside Marci's neighborhood, I'd be voting Spiffeh at the moment for this post. We discussed whether to vote in the dethy or outside of it before putting our Klick vote down. The deciding factor was the dethy players' preferences for cleaning their hood.

Sync Achieved indeed.

What are your thoughts on Dunnstraal?

I think Dunnstral's been scumhunting and pushing people pretty hard once there was more to sink his teeth into. My read had gone leantown before then but his reaction to Spiffeh re ActionDan made a pretty big positive impression.

Really? It felt quite the opposite. The reason it asked is because you earmarked Spiffeh for scum and from its current engagements with Spiffeh, it has an internal note to flip Dunnstraal if Spiffeh is scum.

@oblivion

it's actually this i think - i don't think there's anything... inherently 'wrong' with this post itself on the surface but it feels a bit like something i've seen wolves post before. this is really vague and im struggling to give a why, i guess it's the linking to a better read player and starting to string them together. i think if spiffeh does flip wolf its the sort of thing i revisit critically (i am stringing you together now with spiffeh lol)

That is a confusing take. Have you read the bit of it and spiffeh's interaction on page 7?

It will outline for you why it thinks the way it does. In essence while poking at Spiffeh, spiffeh appeared to want to change its mind about things. It was confused, initially because... it didn't HAVE a strong solid take away on Bagel OR Dunnstraal yet. And yet this player seemed to be... intoning something towards it? And then by the response it was given in the end, it felt like Spiffeh had an agenda to be manipulating it.

It is FULLY aware of its position in this game. It is newer, it is less known and knows less of everyone. It expects it will be the target of manipulation tactics to control it. That was the kind of tactic is was on high alert for.

So, in its mind, if Spiffeh was scum trying to control it as what he might view as a weaker mind to misdirect, why would Spiffeh do that? What is the intended angle? the intended angle would be either

Make it believe they are town
convince it to change its mind on one of the two reads

but it wasn't.... sweet enough for the first. It didn't feel like it was trying to be swayed to have its eyes covered on the case of Spiffeh's alignment. So it assumes the second. And if Bagel is town...

There's the end of that logic chain.

[Oblivion]

You're not openly forthcoming. Your cards are held and it is trying to hack your brain and you're denying it. That is how it feels.

I am used to the average impression of me being that I am someone who dumps all thoughts into the thread. So this is certainly a novel take.

From my POV, it feels like you asked me a question that is functionally not answerable, and then view me as being stubborn by not answering. I think we have fundamentally different ways of thinking about other players, and that is just a barrier that exists that is independent to my willingness to share my thoughts.

Perhaps. May it attempt to explain one more time what it is looking for?

[Oblivion]

i have absolutely no issue with being vigged as long as whoever shoots me shoots morph next night

if someone repeats four times in the first day of a game for any vig to shoot me, I'm going to ask that if it's done that they pay with their lives on the next night.

that is not me asking to get shot or killed. I have not at any point asked to die or whatever.

Snakes in bags, man. Snakes in bags. Scorpion in a jar.

[Oblivion]

Can someone who knows Pooky please iterate whether this is a normal amount of swindler/conman/slimy that this slot is?

[Oblivion]

Can someone who knows Pooky please iterate whether this is a normal amount of swindler/conman/slimy that this slot is?

oh cool we're going into insults already

Apologies. It isn't intended to be an insult, more.... fearful? It views the manner in which you write as... terrifying.

[Oblivion]

It is speaking from within a game approach, with regards to how you play Mafia. It doesn't know you personally enough to be able to even assume outside of that.

But it will say that even your response here was like a Snake snapping its jaws at a threat.

[Oblivion]

That is a confusing take. Have you read the bit of it and spiffeh's interaction on page 7?

It will outline for you why it thinks the way it does. In essence while poking at Spiffeh, spiffeh appeared to want to change its mind about things. It was confused, initially because... it didn't HAVE a strong solid take away on Bagel OR Dunnstraal yet. And yet this player seemed to be... intoning something towards it? And then by the response it was given in the end, it felt like Spiffeh had an agenda to be manipulating it.

It is FULLY aware of its position in this game. It is newer, it is less known and knows less of everyone. It expects it will be the target of manipulation tactics to control it. That was the kind of tactic is was on high alert for.

So, in its mind, if Spiffeh was scum trying to control it as what he might view as a weaker mind to misdirect, why would Spiffeh do that? What is the intended angle? the intended angle would be either

Make it believe they are town
convince it to change its mind on one of the two reads

but it wasn't.... sweet enough for the first. It didn't feel like it was trying to be swayed to have its eyes covered on the case of Spiffeh's alignment. So it assumes the second. And if Bagel is town...

There's the end of that logic chain.

looking back at it now i can see the angle of 'spiffeh is trying to pocket oblivion by being niceish on arrival' but i dont agree with the take wrt dunnstral. i think it would be heavyhanded to try and butter someone up to their partner that early into the game without having a better rapport, also i think that if spiffeh wants to say 'this is my strongest read' he has to later 1) make up towny reasons for his wolf partner to be town or 2) figure out a way to walk away from that over time

and i dont think that... that level of strategy really happens between partners early on, idk. maybe it does and he wasnt thinking about the consequences but it doesnt seem likely to me that theyre partnered off of this

Perhaps. It thinks that it is overlookable enough to be attacked in that way, is the problem. Perhaps it is swigning too far in the direction of assuming it will be seen as weak.

[Oblivion]

man im just not going to talk to the asshole half of this game

fuck ya'all

Okay this is... an overeaction and a half. What is it even meant to say? It is clearly trying to speak about the manner in which you approach the game. The only player here being personally insulting, from its view, is you.

[Oblivion]

there is no universe where I would see you as a threat

Man you are unpleasant, huh?

[Oblivion]

Again, it is not trying to insult you and it would VERY much like that you stop trying to control a narrative in which that is what it is doing. It is describing the manner in which you play as a certain kind of manipulative. It feels vindicated in that view point from your reactions so far. It is trying to decide whether that is the norm for you or not.

[Oblivion]

there is no universe where I would see you as a threat

Man you are unpleasant, huh?

You are an odious creature and you bring out the worst side of me because I absolutely cannot stand being insulted by random strangers on the internet

it is an unfortunate personality flaw

...

Got it.

[Oblivion]

It thinks it should go find a different website to play mafia on, perhaps.

[Oblivion]

Okay this is... an overeaction and a half. What is it even meant to say? It is clearly trying to speak about the manner in which you approach the game. The only player here being personally insulting, from its view, is you.

no this is a dirty filthy lie and you know it

you knew exactly what you were doing when you decided to call me "slimy/conman/etc"

if you wanted to ask if this is how I play the game you could simply have said some shit like "does he always play like this?" or "what are some of his completed games I could have as a meta check"

instead you went straight to insulting to troll me and get a reaction because thats the type of person you are and I find it absolutely insufferable and DOUBLY so because now you're trying to pretend like you weren't trying to insult me to my face.

It isn't trying to pretend anything. It gave several words of examples of your playstyle because it EXPLICITLY was seeking a word so as not to be insulting.

Your playstyle reads like someone who swindles others. It is a GAME. ABOUT. LYING. TO. OTHERS. You read as someone DANGEROUSLY CAPABLE.

It is so over this.

[Oblivion]

You are entitled to your opinion, it isn't how it intended it. But your continued personal attacks on it are completely not worth its time.

[Oblivion]

- pooky i think is strange because usually when people get really huffy and puffy over stuff and are like "kill me and then them" i err towards them being town but with him i feel like that's in his Wolf Wheelhouse to break out easily so idk what to make of it

what am i being huffy and puffy about again

Why do you feel like a bag full of venomous snakes? Like... just reading you makes me itch.

Every time it reads one of your posts, the first impression it gets is "this is someone who could cut my throat with a smile while telling me about how beautiful the sunset is".

This is very clearly about your playstyle. It explcitly apologized to you for the misunderstanding, it has nothing to say to you if you don't want to believe it.

[Oblivion]

You are entitled to your opinion, it isn't how it intended it. But your continued personal attacks on it are completely not worth its time.

i literally told you i didnt want to speak to you and you kept talking to me

We are in the same game together and you have insulted me significantly.

What, do you expect you can just get big and angry and scare people away? Does that normally work for you? Being a bully and attacking others until they stop existing in your space?

[Oblivion]

Cause it sure seems to me like that's what you're trying to do to it. You didn't like how it worded something, it apologized to you for this... and tried to do this several times. You don't want to accept that apology, that's fine, but you don't get to then try to be big angry and cruel and make it disappear.

[Oblivion]

I am angry at being called a slimy conman when Im just trying to have fun



you can call me mafia, i absolutely do not give a shit if you call me mafia

And it apologized. It was referring to your playstyle only. If you don't want to believe that it can't make you believe that.

It has ZERO idea on your alignment, but the manner in which you talk to people feels like you are constantly manipulating and it doesn't know how else to describe that. It wanted to know if that was a normal behaviour for you, to be manipulative even as town. It knows people who are like that! It is a valid strategy in mafia!

Nothing it has said has felt like an insult to it, but it respects you have taken it badly. It WANTS to apologize and move on. It would love nothing more. But it won't stand back and be attacked in return either.

[Oblivion]

you said its ok for you to call me a slimy conman since we're just playing a game

except how I act in this game is p much how I act in real life so it is hurtful to me for someone to say I'm being a slimy conman.

most of the time I am just joking.

I do not make a habit of lying in real life

I do not know a single life or con I've even done in this game let alone wtf you r talking about

It cannot comprehend how you can be the same person in a game about hunting down players and lying to other players as you are in day to day life. Again, its intent wasn't to insult you.

And right now, even, it has to decide whether even THIS is something you are doing jsut to look town or not and that SUCKS.

It has exactly zero to say about your real life, it doesn't know or WANT to know your real life.

[Oblivion]

Like, can you assume perhaps that the person who knows exactly zero about who you are outside of a stuffed bear emoji and the 100 posts or so you've made this game perhaps isn't trying to read deeper into your personal life psyche and is speaking more about how you play a fucking online game?

Can it be afforded at least that much good will for fucks sakes?

[Oblivion]

You shoulda seen the other shitty superpower pill choices...

I get you're trying to do things past this shitshow or whatever but can you not?

[Oblivion]

It would rather resolve this bullshit here and now and move the fuck on and not have to stretch this out over the course of a game and you doing things PAST this means it will have to come back and read this shit to try and sort you so for the LOVE of god.

[Oblivion]

like you keep pretending like a playstyle can be separated from who we are and since you're talking about my playstyle I can't possibly be insulted that you decided to say I'm a slimy conman

i have already offered you a solution - we simply stop talking to each other and everyone will be better for it

That's not a fucking solution and you know it.

It is trying, actively, to apologize to you. Playstyle and personal are two different things. It is NOT the same person in mafia as it is outside of it, and all it intended to ask was if you were manipulative to players as both alignments. It apologizes deeply for using words that hurt you to describe that.

[Oblivion]

It does not believe you are a slimy conman, it doesn't know you outside of game. It literally only knows what you do in game. In game, you feel manipulative, even in posts that don't seem to have much intent behind them.

It just wanted to know if that kind of manipulative style was common for you! It's not even a value judgement, manipulation is value neutral in mafia! God if anything it was AFRAID of you as a player.

[Oblivion]

i mean the point i cared more about was the first part where you okayed being shot which is something, if not in this exact context, ive done as wolf more than once and i feel you would do too. you can be town being upset too but from experience i just feel like you get more upset/angry/etc like this as a wolf sorry

my point is I have never asked to be killed in this game so it is strange to me that is what you are getting from what I posted.

I simply said IF a vig actually listens to Cabd's constant harping that they should do me a favor and get hit on the next night

This feels like you're doing expectation management from a player to try and convince them of something when the quote is pretty clearly you being okay with dying. It's not precisely what they said you said either, but it's not so far from the truth that your post doesn't feel like you're not manipulating them.

Like... it feels like there are ways to go "this is not what I said" but instead you come across with... this. You're controlling the conversation and managing expectations and it just feels like there was no NEED for it so... why? It just wanted to know if that was normal with you.

[Oblivion]

Will not somebody rid us of this troublesome bear?

I'm ascetic you can shoot me at night if I'm that scary

This is manipulative too! Like, it gets this is a joke but it feels like you baring your fangs to scare someone off from something before it gets bigger!

Like, it's not a bad thing, it's a tool you're using but it just wanted to know whether it was the norm! Fucks sakes!

[Oblivion]

ok lets rewind to where you called me a slimy conman and pretend everything past that never happened ok?

you dont have to read anything i said to you as alignment indicative because frankly its not, I would be pretty insulted as either alignment if someone called me a slimy conman and go nuclear on them.

I will pretend you're not insulting me to my face and leave it at that.


you say I'm being manipulative.

where am I doing that.

It is providing you examples as we speak. The example that triggered it was your discussion with Shell and the prior examples it saw when it was reading are things it is grabbing now but has much to do with how you interacted with players earlier in the game, especially morph.

The thing is, if it thought you were being manipulative with an intent to achieve somehting it might be suspicious but it's weird things, weird places where you don't need to be that overt but you ARE so it was wondering why?

[Oblivion]

Will not somebody rid us of this troublesome bear?

I'm ascetic you can shoot me at night if I'm that scary

This is manipulative too! Like, it gets this is a joke but it feels like you baring your fangs to scare someone off from something before it gets bigger!

Like, it's not a bad thing, it's a tool you're using but it just wanted to know whether it was the norm! Fucks sakes!

thats me saying to morph if he's mafia and he's scared of me he can shoot me

that's a joke

it is not me trying to scare morph

Right but then there is talk about vigilantes and such which to it felt like it was more than just "shoot me if you're scared of me, scum"

Like, even if it IS a joke it feels like it has an intent beyond that, in how you present yourself.

[Oblivion]

Critical thinking skills got left behind in the mafia PT and outsourced to a try harder I see. You must have gotten somebody who thrives on setup spec with you.

bruh i never had critical thinking skills lol

Like it read this post when it was instructed to read the "post Dethy reveal" and went "huh? what?"

[Oblivion]

if morph was mafia they would be scared of me because I'm pretty sure I've never misread Morph in my life and they know I can p easily pick up on either of their scum tells and also get a large enough wagon to hit them.

i do not need to scare morph if morph is mafia.

also i

f morph is town there is no way morph town would be scared of me because they would expect me to read them correctly regardless of my alignment

Why is this a truism? Like, you state it with authority but it doesn't understand why that is just blanket true?

[Oblivion]

Spiffeh being scum is a interesting take i wish to induldge in tomorrow to do rereads.

Please, please..... PLEASE just give it like.... 30 minutes. Maybe even 15. It's begging not to have to re-read this section of the game later.

[Oblivion]

Critical thinking skills got left behind in the mafia PT and outsourced to a try harder I see. You must have gotten somebody who thrives on setup spec with you.

bruh i never had critical thinking skills lol

Like it read this post when it was instructed to read the "post Dethy reveal" and went "huh? what?"

wheres the manipulation again

It felt like a deflection with humour. Like... you were aware you maybe should have picked up on something but didn't and so deflected with humour when from its assessment you are clearly precisely the type to notice things.

Like, it recognizes you are going to use humour a lot but, it felt like you were again managing expectations with your humour.

[Oblivion]

Why is this a truism? Like, you state it with authority but it doesn't understand why that is just blanket true?

because we've played a lot of games together and I am familiar with how they play town and scum

And because you've played so many games with them it's simply impossible for you to be wrong? Why would they expect you to be 100%

[Oblivion]

they expect me to read them correctly, so if they are town, they would expect town!me to get to a point where I think they're town, they would also expect scum!me to get to a point where I think they're town in order to obfuscate my alignment. They would not expect me to fake a scumread and push them because I'm too lazy for that shit.

It... what? What? huh?

It does not understand this logic remotely. How is it not possible you would misread them ever?

[Oblivion]

Like, nearly every post from you that has anything to do with game elements appears to be carefully managing your expectations and thinking about the impact your words will have on the gamestate.

And in its experience scum is more likely to do that than town but the manner in which you approach DOING that is SO overt it feels like it might have been a playstyle thing.

That's its take.

[Oblivion]

It felt like a deflection with humour. Like... you were aware you maybe should have picked up on something but didn't and so deflected with humour when from its assessment you are clearly precisely the type to notice things.

well I have two choices about how to interpret his comment towards me not thinking critically and "playing dumb".

The assumption here is that from my point of view I'm "not playing dumb" this is just how I am.

(1) He's joking, I respond with a joke.

(2) He's not joking, he's actually saying that the only way I could be this dense is if I'm mafia playing dumb- in which case if I'm town then he's straight up calling me dumb. I choose to believe my friend isn't calling me dumb and he's just making a jest.

this doesn't make a lot of sense to it as a duality of choices either. Why isn't 3) he thinks you're scum who intentionally missed that because you don't normally miss that and so is poking you on it, but there are worlds where you as town don't live up to the expectations of skill he has of you exist too?

Like, to it isn't it possible to have a positive interpretation of a player's skill and then be concerned when they miss something you attribute them as normally getting without having to call them dumb for missing it?

[Oblivion]

Like much of what it is getting from this conversation is that you appear to look at things in black and white. If someone thinks you are talented and you fail, you view that as being dumb or being assumed to be as such, and not just a mistake. Townies make mistakes? Even the most skilled players make blunders. You wouldn't expect them to make those blunders and might misread them for it but they DO.

Isn't part of being scum doing things town you wouldn't do but making it seem like town you might? If you never make blunders there's no space to hide within so why... it doesn't understand.

[Oblivion]

they expect me to read them correctly, so if they are town, they would expect town!me to get to a point where I think they're town, they would also expect scum!me to get to a point where I think they're town in order to obfuscate my alignment. They would not expect me to fake a scumread and push them because I'm too lazy for that shit.

It... what? What? huh?

It does not understand this logic remotely. How is it not possible you would misread them ever?

ofc I can be wrong

I dont remember being wrong in the recent past so I expect I will be right.

I also expect them to expect I will be right.

Its possible I misread them and totally forgot about it, I don't have great memory and I tend to forget mistakes.

Okay, but.

Yes, confidence in yourself is fine, you should expect your reads to be right but... the inverse of that, that another player should expect with 100% certainty that you will never ever ever misread them is... so weird?

[Oblivion]

they expect me to read them correctly, so if they are town, they would expect town!me to get to a point where I think they're town, they would also expect scum!me to get to a point where I think they're town in order to obfuscate my alignment. They would not expect me to fake a scumread and push them because I'm too lazy for that shit.

It... what? What? huh?

It does not understand this logic remotely. How is it not possible you would misread them ever?

For this topic, I will attest that in exactly every game that I have seen both pooky and morph exist in, pooky has claimed to have a perfect read rate on morph.

Whether you think that it is a reasonable believe for him to have or not, this is a Pooky constant.

But I am gonna go to bed, and bow out from the larger discussion here.

!!!

that's... insanity.

[Oblivion]

this doesn't make a lot of sense to it as a duality of choices either. Why isn't 3) he thinks you're scum who intentionally missed that because you don't normally miss that and so is poking you on it, but there are worlds where you as town don't live up to the expectations of skill he has of you exist too?

that is literally what choice (2) says

No... no it's not? In your choice 2 you assume he has to call you dumb or else he must be joking and in my choice 3 he is respecting your skill but also there are worlds where he misreads you as scum when town because you misread him too? Failure to Connect?

[Oblivion]

look I have high standards for myself

I fall short of them all the time.

but until I fuck up I'm not gonna believe I'm wrong about something I think I'm right about.

It isn't asking you to abandon your standards or confidence, but it is trying to understand your mindset here. This is unreal beyond belief. You're so confident you'll never be wrong that you have to assume the post from morph must be in jest else he would have to be calling you dumb? What?

[Oblivion]

I may have skipped some of Pooky v Oblivion, but otherwise have caught up.

\o/

Yeah, apologies. It thinks we're on a newer topic but it still isn't really sure if things are moved past.

[Oblivion]

his point is

"Pooky is mafia who is playing dumb because there's no way Town!Pooky would miss this."

so if I'm town and I missed it, the implication would be that I'm dumb.

I don't think he's actually calling me dumb here; I think it's a joke. that's why I respond with a joke.

I do not expect him to call me dumb for missing something in a game of mafia. I do not pay attention to detail and dutifully read every page I miss, I just log in and see what's popping.

I...

It thinks it is starting to understand your mindset, but it can't grok it at all.

It can't really fathom the bolded line as a logical leap. It would go instead "My friend who knows me well thinks I am playing dumb on purpose to manipulate townies, but I know I'm town and just made a mistake/missed something. They only assume I'm playing dumb because they think I'm scum. If they knew my alignment as town, they would assume I made a mistake and not think I'm dumb".

Right?

[Oblivion]

I don't understand what you can't fathom

That your immediate assumption to being accused of playing dumb towards something (which would be an accusation of being scum because town wouldn't purposefully play dumb there) HAS to necessitate that your friend would be calling you dumb and so must be a joke, as opposed to having two world views

a: if scum, then playing dumb and probably has realized this

and

b: if town, then made an error in parsing something that they don't normally make which caused me to suspect them incorrectly.

[Oblivion]

but that your friend would lean towards you being a really good player and not making that error frequently and so would assume we are in world a most of the time, so behave with that in mind.

[Oblivion]

You really would leap to assuming your friend is insulting you before assuming they're making burdenful expectations of your play that are misinformed by a possible rare mistake from your side?

[Oblivion]

also like how does one even leave their critical thinking skills behind in a scum pt with someone else?

like is he seriously saying I put my brain cells with my scum partner?

I'm assuming thats just a joke right? cuz if its serious that doesnt even make sense tbh

It honestly can't speak for Morph. It read it as saying that you were scum trying to play dumb in a too cute way, essentially. Like, that you were feigning not understanding. Perhaps Morph can shed light, it doesn't know. But it wouldn't have assumed it was a joke to begin with. It also wouldn't have assumed it to be an insult.

[Oblivion]

Regardless, given the lack of players weighing in to say that this is out of character for you and Luke weighing in to confirm this is indeed how you approach things it is going to assume this is the norm for you which... it will now have to decide if your behaviour with that as the norm actually indicates alignment anywhere. Which is not going to be fun because it has no idea where to begin. You feel so fully leveled against yourself that you could honestly swing either direction.

[Oblivion]

It's take of you is that you try to control how you are perceived and control conversations, that you have a large ego (this is not an insult, for the love of god having an ego is not a bad thing) and tend to view things black and white instead of possible shades of grey, and that you use humour to deflect from things you don't want to engage with.

Is any of this an unfair assessment of your playstyle in Mafia to your eyes, Pooky?

[Oblivion]

It also thinks you think more steps ahead than most people do, you're frequently overlooked because of your humour and tend to make people want to work with you by being affable.

[Oblivion]

Idk, not feeling very confident in who is scum in the hood ATM

I liked Spiffeh's push here:

VOTE: Brian Skies

Does this represent a change of your Oblivion read? If so, elaborate?

Ummm sort of. I think its posts generally feel agenda less. 1013 is a good example where it gives me the overall impression that it's just doing its own thing in figuring things out.

But I'm also having a hard time following its thought processes and reads on players in the game. It might be due to how it approaches the game, e.g. its treatment of the

FireBagel slot seemed like an uncharitable scumread to me,

but it was actually townreading Firebagel the whole time...? I guess I'm still in a wait-and-see mode. I'm interested what conclusions its drawing from its questions, specifically with Pooky but also more generally.

I mostly wanted to move my vote

This is how it came across? It was only asking the slot to answer a question and being unwilling to be deflected away by questions itself? It's not really sure.... eh, anyway.

It's read process on Bagel was, as follows:

Enter Thread, Witness a user claim scum, think about if this can come from both alignments, it can but will likely be killed at some point as a result, if this is town it needs to find that to ensure it doesn't become an easy elimination later, approach with inquery, be rebuffed by questions instead of answers, refuse to budge, get delayed, get an answer, feel somewhat comfortable with a mental model of the user, decide within that model it is likely the user is town but not 100%, determine that it is confident enough in its model that by day 2 it should be able to feel locked in about that alignment, decide as a result the slot is town with a refresh required on day 2, move onto other slots.

[Oblivion]

It also dislikes the assertions that its interaction with pooky was somehow egging him on as opposed to, as it said multiple times, trying to squash the issue and apologize and reach a stable conclusion such that the game could progress without the tension of that drama. It is confident Marci is town, but it wonders if Brian isn't taking advantage of the situation and Marci's bias towards it to come to that conclusion? It certainly thinks less of Brian for his interaction with Marci, where Marci feels like misguided town and Brian feels like he is looking for an in, as opposed to actually solving.

[Oblivion]

What is your mental model of Firebagel and how did that help you arrive at the conclusion that she is town?

It thinks she is the kind of player who cares much less about how their are percieved that the majority of other players, and takes the game a modicum less seriously than it and others as well. Not to say she isn't trying, but rather that she has a more laissez-faire attitude. Generally it thinks of the player as someone who will speak off the top of their head as opposed to taking their time to really consider the impact that every word has, and it feels they are more likely to find someone as town based on the gut feelings of how an interaction goes than by the methodology behind someone's actions (in other words, it feels like she reads people the same way she plays, based on feel and flow?).

And with that lens in mind, it thinks that the entrance had a chance to be a gambit and still does but it struggles to see how a feel and flow based player enters with a gambit like that because it's very much the kind of gambit that someone needs to think more in advance about. It thinks it fits way more as an off the cuff joke to garner reactions towards her. This is hypothesis but it thinks she is more comfortable reading people when they engage and talk about things she is involved in than trying to mindread an interaction between two other players and determine the value judgement of how that Feels.

With that in mind it thinks Bagel entered the game like this not nervously (bagel doesn't appear to be inexperienced) but with a light heart and the idea to dive right in and find what they find. It finds that mentality town and it expects that if that mentality continues across the days, the live and let live riskiness of willing to simply say what is on their mind and not hesitate to commit herself to a position, it feels strongly that it will be able to lock in that town read from there.

[Oblivion]

tbh I think Firebagel decided her entrance into this game before she even got her role PM because her account is a play off of Firebringer, who is known for claiming scum every game

But thanks for answering, that seems like a believable thought process at least

wait, it thought those connections were just jokes based on the name, is the account really actually a joke account trying to mirror firebringer's playersytle?

[Oblivion]

On one hand I feel like I need to reread this game to get a solid scum read of my own, and on the other hand I want to just wait for morph to do all the work for me and break out their super duper color coded entire player list read list

But either way, I don't currently know where I want my vote to be, and it feels stale where it is.

You that confident morph is town?

I do think that morph is town, but that post was not to say that I wanted the reads list to blindly sheep. But I wanted their eventual Sych-Achieved Cases to look at to determine which I agree with and which I don't, because that becomes a much more manageable amount of work to determine who I want to kill in a game of this size.

Did you read its interaction with them where it asked for top 3 town and top scum?

[Oblivion]

tbh I think Firebagel decided her entrance into this game before she even got her role PM because her account is a play off of Firebringer, who is known for claiming scum every game

But thanks for answering, that seems like a believable thought process at least

wait, it thought those connections were just jokes based on the name, is the account really actually a joke account trying to mirror firebringer's playersytle?

I don't think she's trying to mimic all of Firebringer's playstyle, just the part where he jokingly claims scum (her account creation was motivated by Firebringer based on her signup post). The rest of her playstyle seems true to her usual self.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Let it process that. It doesn't think this changes its model of her at all but still this isn't something it knew.

[Oblivion]

i think during pooky x oblivion. oblivion looks like REALLY bad. it sort of looks like its egging pooky on. While i really love the 1119 pop in from firebrigner, it seems so jokey and i feel like scums more likely to sit back while that spat was happening. i think overall that spat just screams that pookys town though, because of the reactions, and not really like actually placing blame, just trying to explain why what it did was wrong. it would've been really easy for scum pooky to just call oblivion scum and push that.

Brian skies 1201 if it does help within the hood i have the most posts then - sunflower - klick - dragon - actiondan
i think the post counts in the hood may make me a bit biased, but your reads here in that post pretty much align with mine. I think by far klick/sunflowers is more towny than the other 2.
I'm also curious how well you know catscratch..? Like what do you like about them, i know other people are used to their playstyle but i have no clue how much experience you have with them.

I agree that Oblivion looked as though they were egging Pooky on. I feel players of either alignment would get upset if they were being called manipulative and a snake they way Oblivion was doing it, but I can see why you would want to townread Pooky here. At the very least, I agree that Oblivion looks very bad from the exchange.

I do not think relative activity in a neighborhood is a good barometer of towniness/scumminess.

I don't know CSF. I liked their push against Oblivion early on, I agreed with some of their reads, and their posts feel like they're trying to figure things out. They also don't seem to just be relying on their miller claim.

I keep thinking back to pooky x oblivion because i feel like it will be very alignment discerning for the two. and i keep coming back to pooky!town oblivion!scum. i don't completely follow the people defending oblivion here, putting oblivion in their high trs. i feel like some of those people may be scum pushing to keep their buddy safe, or just straight not reading!! LOL
but do you think im tunneling here? ;-;

Ahh okay! I think your reasonings on catscatch do make sense, i was worried you were just following consensus there.

It thinks you're the one not reading, to be honest. Rather, if it had to ask a question, why are you asking a player who already agrees with you if you have a bias instead of engaging with the slots who town read it to try and FIND the scum you think are protecting it or at least understand their arguments?

To it, it feels like you have decided that you don't like it's posting style and called it a robot and then sort of just ran with that to be scum. It hasn't seen a single justification for why you think it is scum, just that again, you don't like the way it speaks.

It is pretty certain you are town here, so dealing with you in this game is going to be incredibly demoralizing, so for the sake of its sanity it is asking you to at least try to have an open mind and discuss with people who think it is town about why they think it is town. From your PoV, it can't hurt right? Either you get to find the supposed scum who are protecting me or try to convince townies who are wrong about me in your eyes that you are right. And perhaps you end up not having a wrong read and changing your mind and not spending an entire game death tunneling it until one of us dies.

[Oblivion]

It thinks you're the one not reading, to be honest. Rather, if it had to ask a question, why are you asking a player who already agrees with you if you have a bias instead of engaging with the slots who town read it to try and FIND the scum you think are protecting it or at least understand their arguments?

To it, it feels like you have decided that you don't like it's posting style and called it a robot and then sort of just ran with that to be scum. It hasn't seen a single justification for why you think it is scum, just that again, you don't like the way it speaks.

It is pretty certain you are town here, so dealing with you in this game is going to be incredibly demoralizing, so for the sake of its sanity it is asking you to at least try to have an open mind and discuss with people who think it is town about why they think it is town. From your PoV, it can't hurt right? Either you get to find the supposed scum who are protecting me or try to convince townies who are wrong about me in your eyes that you are right. And perhaps you end up not having a wrong read and changing your mind and not spending an entire game death tunneling it until one of us dies.

how am i not reading when you literally were stuck behind by 4734w98478 pages and then has to

ask

about the "dephy hood"?

why am i asking a player who agrees with me? because of the fact that i feel like we have pretty similar reads so they can hopefully help tell me if im putting more weight than i should into this read.
should i not try to engage with brain skies? i can stop if you think so but i really want at least someone to bounce ideas off of right now.

im pretty sure ive already asked at least 1 person why they townread you, and felt like it was underwhelming so i stopped asking them, bet you didnt read enough to see that did you?

i am in pretty good faith trying to understand arguments both about you and the widescope of the game.

i did not decide "i dont like your posting style" and i did not use that for the basis of you being scum. i mentioned "sounds like a bot" off hand yes, but if you notice my main reason for you being scum is how you treated pooky in your spat. Not your style.

i don't try to tunnel people. but i just dont like how you treated pooky. the concept of "having an open mind" is what you asked about earlier???? why am i asking brian skies??? so that i can get another opinion on if im going too hard on you???!

i thought you were done with reading my posts, and you should be if you really are so "demoralized" so what gives? why keep responding? im clearly just trying to improve my game view.

This post of yours honestly either does nothing for me, or makes me think youre reaching a bunch of conclusions too fast. Can you guess which?

sort of at the part where i asked her in hood why she said she had a powerful role and her answer was like, oh i thought cop was powerful?

This also concerned me

are you high because in what world is cop not powerful? even if you don't know its sanity.

It does not view you in good faith when you write posts like these so it is going to go back to ignoring you now.

[Oblivion]

yeah sure

Demonstrate an open mind even once with it and it will engage with you again.

Continue to write in posts like the above which show zero attempt to engage with it in good faith or even attempt to consider its alignment, it will ignore you. Your post was aggressive, condescending and needlessly cruel/mean. Why would it bother?

It's pretty simple math, frankly. Why would it waste its time or breath on a slot that has zero desire to see it as anything but scum... or frankly treat it as an equal? Like, from minute one you've had a problem with it, and it doesn't know what that problem is but it would really like it if you'd take the chip you carry on your shoulder and put it away.

This is its literal last plea to you, it's not going to re-engage again if you're not going to at least meet it half way.

[Oblivion]

I think Klick is probably Town but don’t hate the rest of your list

Leaning towards Firebringer from our hood and am also wary about Cakez and Bingle just because they are nonentities

Dannflor is someone I’d also want in the mix I think

Explain why Klick is town, please. You came out strong with a reaction to a large Klick post but it doesn't know why you think that post is town. If it missed you describing this, please just quote that but it would very much like to see your mentality about the matter over just your reads.

[Oblivion]

Both of you need to knock it off.

I want both of you to come back with a list of top three townreads and top three scumreads and justify, and actually have a conversation and try to understand each other. I think you’re both town, and this is a distraction from rooting out the actual scum. So let’s find some common ground and go from there.

It already said it is willing to engage with the slot when the slot provides it with a modicum of respect. It's going to choose to ignore the slot and do its work in solving elsewhere until such a time comes.

If YOU wish to engage with it about the current state of its reads, it will HAPPILY oblige.

[Oblivion]

okay then why are you so sure that im town?

lets ask that first.

(also i apologize if i am actually coming off as rude, i am well aware that im rude sometimes without meaning it, i've actually had it become a problem in a couple games before)

It wasn't until Morph told it to look back at the reveal of the Dethy thing to the thread that it had not seen. Your post came across as Confused, Inquiring and Seeking Aid to Understand.

It feels that you would have sought that aid from a scum PT if you had one, it also feels that you would have a hard time faking that level of confusion. It thinks that airing out public the manner you did indicates a lack of an ulterior motive and most of all it just thinks that scum would have benefitted from the status quo state of the Dethy not being public to be able to keep information on a lock down.

Now, if the dethy has a traitor as Morph theorized, the scum PT part goes out the window, but then there comes a whole other issue of "If you are a traitor existing in a neighbourhood that you don't understand why or how it exists but you likely know everyone else is town based on your role PM, do you hard out the way you did?" Its answer is emphatically No.

So while it doesn't have a great understanding of your mental model and has been having a hard time engaging with you to even get one, it feels like that single string of posts is sufficient to be able to mark you as town.

[Oblivion]

This is ignoring the matter of tone and the WAY in which you approached it which it also thinks comes from town but is more fakable and since it doesn't have a mental model for you it can't reliably go "This fits the model in a way that makes it comfortable she is town".

But as an additional evidence point with an already stronger argument? It thinks it makes the townread that much stronger.

[Oblivion]

I said look at the dethy thing! Damn cat always stealing my thunder

Ah, was it you? It is typing from top of head and much of last night's brainspace is still taken up with emotional baggage from the Pooky conversation. Apologies.

[Oblivion]

@Oblivion

@Brian the "I'm finding the push on myself overwhelming" bleeds town to me. I don't think that ever comes from scum.

There is also a sense of genuine self-awareness that Town is more likely to vocalize in the thread. If scum!Klick notices that his vagueness is bringing him a lot of heat, he probably just changes up his play style without directly addressing and bringing more attention to it like he does here.

Please explain why "I am finding the push on myself overwhelming" bleeds town?

[Oblivion]

Question for both of you- let’s assume you’re both town and have been interacting like you have all game. What do you think scum would do around that?

It really depends on the mentality of the scum. A more aggressive player might, say, attempt to force a reconciliation to pocket both those players and look better themselves. That said, the trade off of having an isolated series of players at each others throats might not be worth it?

It suspects it would be better to ignore it all together. Just let it play out and let it be a distraction.

[Oblivion]

Dude what part of PenguinPower said Bingle is town does this game not understand

Can... can it raise its hand to ask? Is this just yet another magical interaction of players in which they claim to always be 100% like Pooky->Morph?

[Oblivion]

yeah sure

Demonstrate an open mind even once with it and it will engage with you again.

Continue to write in posts like the above which show zero attempt to engage with it in good faith or even attempt to consider its alignment, it will ignore you. Your post was aggressive, condescending and needlessly cruel/mean. Why would it bother?

It's pretty simple math, frankly. Why would it waste its time or breath on a slot that has zero desire to see it as anything but scum... or frankly treat it as an equal? Like, from minute one you've had a problem with it, and it doesn't know what that problem is but it would really like it if you'd take the chip you carry on your shoulder and put it away.

This is its literal last plea to you, it's not going to re-engage again if you're not going to at least meet it half way.

From my point of view you are the slot that is being aggressive and demeaning towards other players and it makes me not want to attempt to engage with you.

Then don't. It is genuinely trying to be even keeled and respectful at every turn, but this is the second time you've popped in just to try and do this. If you so badly want not to engage with it, then why are you wasting your pop ins on saying things like this that feel exclusively like bait?

[Oblivion]

yeah sure

Demonstrate an open mind even once with it and it will engage with you again.

Continue to write in posts like the above which show zero attempt to engage with it in good faith or even attempt to consider its alignment, it will ignore you. Your post was aggressive, condescending and needlessly cruel/mean. Why would it bother?

It's pretty simple math, frankly. Why would it waste its time or breath on a slot that has zero desire to see it as anything but scum... or frankly treat it as an equal? Like, from minute one you've had a problem with it, and it doesn't know what that problem is but it would really like it if you'd take the chip you carry on your shoulder and put it away.

This is its literal last plea to you, it's not going to re-engage again if you're not going to at least meet it half way.

From my point of view you are the slot that is being aggressive and demeaning towards other players and it makes me not want to attempt to engage with you.

Then don't. It is genuinely trying to be even keeled and respectful at every turn, but this is the second time you've popped in just to try and do this. If you so badly want not to engage with it, then why are you wasting your pop ins on saying things like this that feel exclusively like bait?

Dunn typically doesn't get super involved in these from my recollection. I would take it as constructive criticism, albeit hard to hear especially in the heat of the game. It's something I, along with other players who have been playing a while, struggle with too and you are by no means alone in it. Just focus on moving forward and proving Dunn wrong.

It doesn't feel like constructive criticism. YOU feel like constructive criticism. Dunn feels like a player who wants to make a point or example out of it and keeps popping in to bait it with messages like this. It ignored the first one. It is growing tired of the pattern.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion, can you explain why you were so focused on me when you were catching up with the game?

My understanding is that you were near the start of the game in your catchup and I hadn't posted much yet at that time.

Why would it engage with you after what you just wrote?

Why is it going to give you the time of day right now after that?

[Oblivion]

dunnstral is very blunt in feedback, very true.

Blunt is a kind word for it.

[Oblivion]

The best thing to do is prove him wrong. All we want to do is have a fun game with each other, and let's just focus on doing that and keeping our egos in check.

So what, it has to rise above and "prove him wrong" and he gets to say that and be fine?

[Oblivion]

It'll answer the question in a moment when writing responses to Dunnstraal doesn't feel like pulling its own teeth.

[Oblivion]

It has plans to return its focus here but it is feeling less than 100%. While it heals is there anything it should put its focus onto?

[Oblivion]

Has anyone considered that perhaps fighting for page tops may artificially inflate this game's size and contribute to apathy in players who fall behind?

[Oblivion]

Apologies that... May have sounded like more of a chastizement/admonishment than it intended. It understands the fun of doing it but the game is now across the century threshold in page count on the first day and it worries.

[Oblivion]

the main thing i will fight against is morph's dichotomy of sunflower/klick

i do not want the lim locked between those two

Okay, so here is a question. Actually a series of questions?

Do you think it is correct to eliminate inside or outside the Dethy today?

What are your reads on the 5 dethy members?

[Oblivion]

Can someone explain to it why people are suddenly swarming on Marci? From it's view nothing has changed from the reasons that made her town before?

[Oblivion]

random thing but

I feel like I probably shouldn't be town reading oblivion

Why not?

i think oblivion has been consistently putting out surface-towny content but I don't really feel like it has deeply engaged in the game yet like a townie

I don't get the sense there is something it really cares about?


like even its most recent 2698... i don't really feel like oblivion cares about its marci town read, i feel like it's doing busy work

Did you miss the part where it has fallen ill? Perhaps you've only read the last 30 pages or something, because it cares deeply about its solve, just not when it is running to the bathroom in pain every few hours.

[Oblivion]

It was trying very hard not to leverage that into a game relevant item but it's literally just wanting to heal back to health and then re-engage, while trying to remain connected with a game that has every ability to blow up on posting while it is gone.

[Oblivion]

Also, it finds it incredibly weird that you think it doesn't care about its marci town read when it already has lingering frustrations with that slot and yet has popped in with a desire not to see that slot live BECAUSE it feels that slot is town.

[Oblivion]

Like, what part of it taking the most of its current energy it has to come in and be like "This sudden surge onto Marci feels wrong" makes you think it doesn't care if its townread dies.

That's a wild take.

[Oblivion]

Can someone explain to it why people are suddenly swarming on Marci? From it's view nothing has changed from the reasons that made her town before?

Aside from Marci, where's your head at wrt the current vc?

It can't make heads or tails of the way in which Cakez and Morph interacted. It is as if they are speaking their own language and it is just a spectator to it. The length of time in response for a player who is high indicates they had privileged information about a hydra head that is also part of some cabal that they all belong to?

That said, it hasn't felt a strong town presence from Cakez, and isn't going to stand in the way of that death. It thinks there are better targets, and it is coming to a decision on where it wants its vote to land today, but if Cakez was the eventual ending it won't think it will be a waste in terms of information or potential scum flip equity.

[Oblivion]

Like, what part of it taking the most of its current energy it has to come in and be like "This sudden surge onto Marci feels wrong" makes you think it doesn't care if its townread dies.

That's a wild take.

It’s just a read on the tone of your poat

I understand you hold a town read and probably feel a need to say something about that

It felt to me like the tone of your post had less urgency than it would if you were town with deeply held conviction in the read. It felt like a post you were obligated to make because of your town!marci position.

I didn’t realize you were sick and maybe some of what I perceive as muted energy is actually that instead of being AI, I dunno

Let it tell you exactly where its head was at.

It was 3 am. It was on drugs to assist with pain. It was having pain issues, but decided to check into its games so as not to fall behind. It finished up in the first game it is in, then moved to this game. It noticed how many new pages it had to read. It resolved to check the most recent 5 pages to see current trends vs where its head was at. It saw a growing shift onto Marci. It decided that it wanted to stand up against that, but it couldn't be certain there wasn't some monumental shifting thing since when it had last been engaged.

So, it asked specifically "why were players mobbing Marci, given she was town from prior things and that hadn't seemed to have changed?"

This opened up players to respond to it with reasons FOR a change based on its prior read AND come in opposition of the push if nothing new HAD occured, while also allowing it to sort of engage with the game on only the level it had energy for.

Now, admittedly, much of its brain while high thoughts on that were kind of, uh... less sophisticated? It was essentially that just "wow it needs to know why the fuck people suddenly are going on its strongest town read that's not fit" But it can be sophisticated and high, it thinks? or it tries

[Oblivion]

It is feeling significantly worse today, it's going to need to check in later. Does it have time in the Day day to take more time away from this?

[Oblivion]

Oblivion feels tonally Town to me but I think that I'm town-reading the play style over its actual content which is a trap I've fallen into several times in the past. And I think it was Dann who said that that a lot of its engagement feels directionless and more like busy-work vs. thoughts and feelings they believe and are pursuing, which I agree with. I understand it later mentioned being sick which could explain some of its lack of gusto, but I am not longer townreading it.

Wow, I totally disagree with this take. I think Oblivion was highly focused on what it wanted and strongly pushed to get it. It wasn't busywork at all, it asked directed questions and used the communication to draw meaningful conclusions. I was pretty impressed with its assessment of how I play; a lot of it seemed pretty accurate, and while there was one thing that was quite off from how I historically have played, it is something that I am actively working to change in my mindset at this point, so I was pleased to see that it's apparently coming through not just to me.

it genuinely appreciates this because it helps it feel like the work it is doing to understand the game is actually working? whether it is seen to be doing work it doesn't care that much, but being right and having good developing reads and understandings is rewarding to it, so thank you.

[Oblivion]

it promises to return to its original effort levels once it is no longer confined to its bed

[Oblivion]

It confesses that it just read 10 pages in 5 minutes and has zero idea what in the fuck it has even read. It knows players are speaking their own language to sort of hint or intuit at things but can it ask for a little more clarity in what the fuck is happening?

[Oblivion]

Why are fruit vendors masons?
Why is a guilty not a guilty?
Why does it feel like the majority of this game is taking place in neighbourhoods it isn't privy to and why should it care to try and re-invest after being sick if the whole game is being played above its head?

Consider it frustrated.

[Oblivion]

Not at anyone in particular, to be clear, just... at the situation it finds itself in which is essentially "what the fuck is going on x100000000"

[Oblivion]

Why are fruit vendors masons?
Why is a guilty not a guilty?
Why does it feel like the majority of this game is taking place in neighbourhoods it isn't privy to and why should it care to try and re-invest after being sick if the whole game is being played above its head?

Consider it frustrated.

Oblivion, I have mod information we are fruit vendor masons. If you think I’m town, bingle has to be town

Ah it sees. So you're both claiming mason, not "fruit vending as a mechanic somehow makes us masons". Got it. It understands now.

What included Morph on this?

[Oblivion]

It is prod dodging due to being busy but it will come back to this today after it finishes its tasks.

[Oblivion]

(God trying to do this from my phone was painful)

Hermit and Bingle

Town:
Marci -
Spiffeh - was leaning town, strengthened by the brian flip
Shello - I was on the fence about them in day 1, but I liked their reaction to the guilty, and the more I think about their claimed role the more convinced I am that it is quite literally a perfectly designed town role for the set up (shout out to Ceph).

Tentative town:

Cat Scratch Fever
morph the cat (fferyllt & Cabd)
Save The Dragons

Even more tentitive town:
Oblivion - I felt pretty strongly about this read day 1, but they have been gone for so long, and I lack object permanence, so this read is flatlining
Dannflor - I distinctly remember thinking that Dann looked townie, but I quite literally cannot recall why.
Dunn - I leaned town on him for his read progression on me day 2, and especially liked that he actually went and looked at our prior game when I mentioned that he had been wrong before, but I having a lack of alignment thoughts on him today

Meh:
Firebringer
Firebagel
PenguinPower

Meh, Meh:
Sunflower

Would kill:
Gypyx
experience

For what it is worth, it apologizes for being gone. It maybe doesn't have time for this, but it really wants to? It is having a hard time engaging with this game past its frustration of everything being over its head between personal relationships, players communicating with hidden winks and nudges, neighbourhoods it isn't in it's.... a lot.

Add onto that that it has dental surgery this upcoming week to finish what happened to it a few weeks ago (broken tooth) and so it has really not been in the right place.

It could use some help re-inserting itself into the game, it feels, because right now it is... Daunted, is the correct word it feels.

[Oblivion]

It doesn't know what that help looks like, be it players chatting with it and asking it questions or attempting to do mental models on players with 200 pages of content to... sift through....

It.... yeah. Just yeah.

[Oblivion]

And I’m confirmed town so you know I’m not misdirecting!

Confirmed town unless you and... was it Bingle? are gambiting for some reason which it thinks would be a little TOO much to do at this point. But it doesn't like to speak in absolutes on things like confirmed town unless it's certain... or did something else reconfirm you past the mason claim?

[Oblivion]

It doesn't know what that help looks like, be it players chatting with it and asking it questions or attempting to do mental models on players with 200 pages of content to... sift through....

It.... yeah. Just yeah.

don't feel forced to read everything, like, 200 pages is a lot for anyone

you want me to summarize everything?

It would enjoy seeing you summarize things, if only because it'll help it with your alignment too?

[Oblivion]

(God trying to do this from my phone was painful)

Hermit and Bingle

Town:
Marci -
Spiffeh - was leaning town, strengthened by the brian flip
Shello - I was on the fence about them in day 1, but I liked their reaction to the guilty, and the more I think about their claimed role the more convinced I am that it is quite literally a perfectly designed town role for the set up (shout out to Ceph).

Tentative town:

Cat Scratch Fever
morph the cat (fferyllt & Cabd)
Save The Dragons

Even more tentitive town:
Oblivion - I felt pretty strongly about this read day 1, but they have been gone for so long, and I lack object permanence, so this read is flatlining
Dannflor - I distinctly remember thinking that Dann looked townie, but I quite literally cannot recall why.
Dunn - I leaned town on him for his read progression on me day 2, and especially liked that he actually went and looked at our prior game when I mentioned that he had been wrong before, but I having a lack of alignment thoughts on him today

Meh:
Firebringer
Firebagel
PenguinPower

Meh, Meh:
Sunflower

Would kill:
Gypyx
experience

For what it is worth, it apologizes for being gone. It maybe doesn't have time for this, but it really wants to? It is having a hard time engaging with this game past its frustration of everything being over its head between personal relationships, players communicating with hidden winks and nudges, neighbourhoods it isn't in it's.... a lot.

Add onto that that it has dental surgery this upcoming week to finish what happened to it a few weeks ago (broken tooth) and so it has really not been in the right place.

It could use some help re-inserting itself into the game, it feels, because right now it is... Daunted, is the correct word it feels.

I’m not Luke but you could look at experience’s most recent posts and it would be a good start. He’s kinda hot topic and shouldn’t be too hard to read.

-HM

Would reading Experience's ISO give it enough context to understand the issues there?

[Oblivion]

Can we please not throw shade at masons

What part of this is out of line, exactly? It isn't going to not trust them with the amount of space we have, we killed scum day 1. We have time. That said, it isn't going to just auto lock players that aren't double confirmed or flipped or what have you.

We went through this in the other game, Gypyx. Acting overly locked creates paranoia. Take your "almost always town" pass and wear it instead of pushing for "always town must be listened to 100% of the time" because THAT is what generates paranoia and shade.

[Oblivion]

And I’m confirmed town so you know I’m not misdirecting!

Confirmed town unless you and... was it Bingle? are gambiting for some reason which it thinks would be a little TOO much to do at this point. But it doesn't like to speak in absolutes on things like confirmed town unless it's certain... or did something else reconfirm you past the mason claim?

They are not confirmed beyond claim, but I seriously, seriously doubt they would fake claim masons together.

My recommendation (and personal plan) is to treat both as if they were confirmed town,

unless they both manage to be alive at like, the day before elo

. And even then would still seriously doubt it, but would be contractually obligated to at least give it a double look at that point.

This is about how it feels. Perhaps the day before the day before elo? But we killed scum day 1, we don't have to worry. If this is a gambit to run town into the ground for a while we will eventually return two scum for it on later days, and neither of these two are in the dethy so we would be in a good spot.

This gambit would only be made if those 2 were confident in the status of their final scum partner, but that's enough about that.

[Oblivion]

(God trying to do this from my phone was painful)

Hermit and Bingle

Town:
Marci -
Spiffeh - was leaning town, strengthened by the brian flip
Shello - I was on the fence about them in day 1, but I liked their reaction to the guilty, and the more I think about their claimed role the more convinced I am that it is quite literally a perfectly designed town role for the set up (shout out to Ceph).

Tentative town:

Cat Scratch Fever
morph the cat (fferyllt & Cabd)
Save The Dragons

Even more tentitive town:
Oblivion - I felt pretty strongly about this read day 1, but they have been gone for so long, and I lack object permanence, so this read is flatlining
Dannflor - I distinctly remember thinking that Dann looked townie, but I quite literally cannot recall why.
Dunn - I leaned town on him for his read progression on me day 2, and especially liked that he actually went and looked at our prior game when I mentioned that he had been wrong before, but I having a lack of alignment thoughts on him today

Meh:
Firebringer
Firebagel
PenguinPower

Meh, Meh:
Sunflower

Would kill:
Gypyx
experience

For what it is worth, it apologizes for being gone. It maybe doesn't have time for this, but it really wants to? It is having a hard time engaging with this game past its frustration of everything being over its head between personal relationships, players communicating with hidden winks and nudges, neighbourhoods it isn't in it's.... a lot.

Add onto that that it has dental surgery this upcoming week to finish what happened to it a few weeks ago (broken tooth) and so it has really not been in the right place.

It could use some help re-inserting itself into the game, it feels, because right now it is... Daunted, is the correct word it feels.

I’m not Luke but you could look at experience’s most recent posts and it would be a good start. He’s kinda hot topic and shouldn’t be too hard to read.

-HM

Would reading Experience's ISO give it enough context to understand the issues there?

I believe it would give enough context, possibly with a couple drops out of iso mode to see reactions, etc.

Okay, that is what it will spend its energy on today, plus if players have questions for it it will attempt to answer, though... energy levels aren't at 100 still.

[Oblivion]

It returns from its slumber, its tooth has been permanently fixed and while it hurts, it is more available to this game once more.

Dental Surgery, not even once.

[Oblivion]

So, it has a few reads with how yesterday went down it wants to discuss. It took time to see how the experience wagon developed and was a little confused.

From the Mason claims, can it ask something? Why did Experience's death feel inevitable upon its re-read? Like, there was obstensibly a counter wagon, but it felt like the whole time it was a waiting room for Experience's death. Do you disagree with this take from it? Because it has a follow up observation about this, if it is felt to be accurate.

Additionally, from Marci, can you explain to it what your view of the deathy is in terms of your reads on the other slots?

[Oblivion]

Hi Oblivion we want you to come play!

It is really trying to! Drugs and pain and life have kept it out, sadly. It is doing its best and feels more back to current levels.

Can you tell it how you view the current trajectory of the game? Do you think that town is in control and got it wrong or that there are poison seeds in the core well of the town leading it astray?

[Oblivion]

Is there anyone on the Experience wagons that bothers you?

Yes, if its understanding of the progression from yesterday is correct, but it wants to check its assumptions with the masons.

[Oblivion]

Obivion can you tell us what your three strongest reads are, town or scum, and explain why for each?

It assumes you want it to exclude the Masons, right?

[Oblivion]

So, it has a few reads with how yesterday went down it wants to discuss. It took time to see how the experience wagon developed and was a little confused.

From the Mason claims, can it ask something? Why did Experience's death feel inevitable upon its re-read? Like, there was obstensibly a counter wagon, but it felt like the whole time it was a waiting room for Experience's death. Do you disagree with this take from it? Because it has a follow up observation about this, if it is felt to be accurate.

Additionally, from Marci, can you explain to it what your view of the deathy is in terms of your reads on the other slots?

I think most of the game had it whittled down to experience or sunflower from that hood, and at that point it’s really a coin flip who goes first. But we now have new information to review with this, is there anyone you think pushed experience in a weird way?

Okay, so it's assessment is correct?

Then it doesn't want to kill Sunflower today. Infact, if we're killing in the Dethy, it would rather kill anyone else, it thinks.

The sensation of the game being a waiting room from its perspective comes from an apathetic status quo, and if it knows anything about status quo, it is that scum only allow that to exist if they are comfortable with the outcome.

There wasn't a weird push on experience. More explicitly... why wasn't there a weird push opposing? Where was the setup by players preparing for the flip? Where was the motility?

It felt as if the game had been reduced to "kill Experience, if not, kill Sunflower" and that scum were okay with this series of events.

[Oblivion]

Like... correct it if you feel differently but it really views this game and the way yesterday went as the ultimate manipulation of a bunch of ego driven players who love their intelligences and egos stroked and their final reads heard... who were all lead wrong and astray and now we're following through on the second half of that outcome.

And when Sunflower flips town, what then? Probably it or Gypyx? It knows it is town and Gypyx is not likely to be scum here from a post she made earlier when it was reacting to you being a Mason. It just... Saw through. It is CERTAIN Gypyx is town.

So then your PoE as is current is heading through a station towards town, town town chain elimination.

It feels strongly if something doesn't change and quickly, this game is a lost cause.

[Oblivion]

It was asked who its top town are, and that's simple.

Firebagel, Gypyx, Sunflower.

It genuinely no longer thinks Sunflower CAN be scum from the method that was played yesterday. Why did things occur as they did? How did it come to pass that the entire game ground to a halt to watch a town elimination from certainty after a scum elimination day 1, then Morph was killed as if to calcify their reads into forced existence?

[Oblivion]

So, it has a few reads with how yesterday went down it wants to discuss. It took time to see how the experience wagon developed and was a little confused.

From the Mason claims, can it ask something? Why did Experience's death feel inevitable upon its re-read? Like, there was obstensibly a counter wagon, but it felt like the whole time it was a waiting room for Experience's death. Do you disagree with this take from it? Because it has a follow up observation about this, if it is felt to be accurate.

Additionally, from Marci, can you explain to it what your view of the deathy is in terms of your reads on the other slots?

I think most of the game had it whittled down to experience or sunflower from that hood, and at that point it’s really a coin flip who goes first. But we now have new information to review with this, is there anyone you think pushed experience in a weird way?

Okay, so it's assessment is correct?

Then it doesn't want to kill Sunflower today. Infact, if we're killing in the Dethy, it would rather kill anyone else, it thinks.

The sensation of the game being a waiting room from its perspective comes from an apathetic status quo, and if it knows anything about status quo, it is that scum only allow that to exist if they are comfortable with the outcome.

There wasn't a weird push on experience. More explicitly... why wasn't there a weird push opposing? Where was the setup by players preparing for the flip? Where was the motility?

It felt as if the game had been reduced to "kill Experience, if not, kill Sunflower" and that scum were okay with this series of events.

I see what you’re saying, but this is also not the first time morph has left a big color words post. More often than not, following those posts does well (I can provide some links, both heads alone are scary good let alone together) We’re still organizing our reads, but coming into today and yesterday, we had the same conclusion. Do you have any reason other than gamestate that you think points to sunflower town?

Pedit-
It’s meant to be a guide more than anything, and helps me at the very least to have that information to compare to. This plist frankly isn’t the type of plist where it will be perfectly followed.

I did a color coding of the VCs from day one over night one, and there was a few votes on the brian wagon that did not jive based on my reads. Those were Sunflower, Cakez, Penguin. All I did was green out my townreads and red out the flipped scum, and that entire wagon besides those 3 and firebagel (who voted at my request) were on the town side of things.

So the defense against the physical manifestation of Apathy into the game is that the players who left the list are simply too good to be fooled from within?

It really doesn't know what to say to that. It sees something, it is just as capable as them, and it is pleading with you to See what it Sees and to get the answer "well they won't really be followed" "well they're REALLY good" is.... disheartening.

[Oblivion]

I don’t think it’s fair to quantify morph as grinding the game to a halt, there was a good bit of information and events that happened yesterday that are all semi pertinent. Morphs guilty and retraction on shello, our mason claim, wolfbaes entrance just to name a few.

For me, personally, wolfbaes reads are giving me pause bc I do respect his opinion and stances and his drastically different view of the game is messing with my head some. To say everything was on morph is kinda unfair when everyone in the game was pretty universally agreeing? But I see your point in scum being okay with the status quo. Who of the other 3 has the most scum equity?

Remind it of the other 3? It's Marci, it knows that, but who were the other two?

[Oblivion]

I’m not saying they aren’t too good to be fooled, and I’m pretty sure I explicitly said it’s not meant to be a full roadmap.

I am considering how you see the gamestate. We have other concerns about the gamestate too.

Pedit
The other two are wolfbae and STD.

Wolfbae was Klick, correct?

STD feels checked out and it can relate with that, but there is a fear of scum hiding in that area, yes? Like... it is fully aware if it wishes to remain in this game it cannot allow scum to hide in a pocket of its own creation with apathy about neighbourhoods and such. It is why it is making effort to re-engage even against the grating pain(physical) and frustration (mental).

Wolfbae was Klick who was in a terrible spot, but seems to have talked himself out of that spot which is scary. An alt who is known to only a few people and wink and nods at them to get where he wants and then settles in to a comfortable position also fits what it is looking for.

Marci.... man it really can't help but think Marci might just be a Mark. It really doesn't think it can unsee her as town from how it described on day 1, despite her reads being constantly questionable from its PoV.

Gun to its head.... Kill Wolfbae and dance on the corpse with Glee.

[Oblivion]

VC 3.1

Sunflower 5 (CSF, SirCakez, Spiffeh, Dunnstral, Lukewarm)

+ morph
+ shello
+ you

Well Morph is dead and Hermit is mason, so that leaves you with 6 slots, probably not Shello.

So among the 5 listed above, what is your take? If it can be blunt, you feel like... someone who is hesitant to commit to a position in earnestness and it would like to pin you down on something, if it is allowed.

[Oblivion]

Also oblivion, why is firebagel so town to you? You can point to where I missed an explanation.

Wolfbae is a fairly well known player with multiple alts that I’m aware of, and if you desire to find that you are more than welcome. I am also skeptical of him! In fact, he is my second choice after sunflower presently (might chance once herr and I sit and chat)

Pedit
@STD, I mean the quiet ones nodding along.

Call it a calcified day 1 read that if you recall, it explained it had a sense of how that players mental model worked from its PoV?

Well part of re-engaging with the game was it re-examining that slot to get a sense of whether the behaviour pattern it observed day 1 was retained and in expected values for what it thinks that slot will be town in, and... it is pleasantly surprised.

As for explaining the mental model it can attempt to do that again, similar to how it did when you asked it about someone else earlier in the game when it was still invested. It is a little worried about burning out again on big effortful things that might not even go anywhere if players can't understand how it Looks at games, which... has been common.

[Oblivion]

I’m not saying they aren’t too good to be fooled, and I’m pretty sure I explicitly said it’s not meant to be a full roadmap.

I am considering how you see the gamestate. We have other concerns about the gamestate too.

Pedit
The other two are wolfbae and STD.

Wolfbae was Klick, correct?

STD feels checked out and it can relate with that, but there is a fear of scum hiding in that area, yes? Like... it is fully aware if it wishes to remain in this game it cannot allow scum to hide in a pocket of its own creation with apathy about neighbourhoods and such. It is why it is making effort to re-engage even against the grating pain(physical) and frustration (mental).

Wolfbae was Klick who was in a terrible spot, but seems to have talked himself out of that spot which is scary. An alt who is known to only a few people and wink and nods at them to get where he wants and then settles in to a comfortable position also fits what it is looking for.

Marci.... man it really can't help but think Marci might just be a Mark. It really doesn't think it can unsee her as town from how it described on day 1, despite her reads being constantly questionable from its PoV.

Gun to its head.... Kill Wolfbae and dance on the corpse with Glee.

Marci publicly outed my main, though I'm not sure whether that would be important to you or not.

I am also present if there is anything you would like to ask of me.

God, the pain from its tooth really must be getting to it because it wants nothing more than to leap onto this and barrage away to get at the essence of your mental model but it just feels... exhausted even by this much effort on its side.

Let it try, at least.

From its observations of you, you came out swinging to save your slot which it feels ike you wrote about from a position of being afraid if you didn't you would die, but in recent times you have somewhat put the brakes on. You indicate in a post that you are undcertain with your reads, which it gets but it doesn't feel like uncertainty it feels like a stepback to keep the current pace of the game and not shift it too much. It feels intentional.

With that in mind, can you explain why you feel so uncertain?

[Oblivion]

i've been pretty vocal about firebringer town and less vocal about tring the hood minus marcy, being null on cakez, yesterday scumreading morph and experience (oof and oof for me).

i've been keeping my reads close to the chest a little but here's where i'm at currently, i'll even try to order it:

Town:

Hermit Crab (and ostensibly Bingle who has done fuck all to deserve this position)
Firebringer
Cat Scratch Fever
Dannflor

Lean Town

Sunflower
wolfbae

Null

SirCakez
Oblivion
Shello and Goodbye
PenguinPower

Little sus

Lukewarm
Gypyx
marcistar
Spiffeh

Downright naughty

Dunnstral
Firebagel

It thinks being null on Shello and goodbye is an impossible take. Explain that for it?

[Oblivion]

Did you receive a cop shot on night 1? If so, who did you target and what was the result?

I don't see any reason to give out information on that matter right now.

like this, this shit right here.

Look at Firebagel's response, this is so perfectly within range folks.

How can anyone look at this and see scum, it is so utterly confused!

[Oblivion]

Also, apologies if it is being rude. It isn't attempting to be, it feels like it might be coming across as rude, it is simply.... struggling through pain and apathy to be here and really wishes to engage so it's just posting without allowing its filter to restrict it as much.

[Oblivion]

I agree with CSF that there’s an exorbitant amount of effort today at looking away from sunflower.

It was speaking very much about yesterday, and when it came in today Sunflower was the main wagon and players were saying "we're going to abide by Morph's dead reads" sooooooooooooooooo?

[Oblivion]

STD do our reads normally go in nearly inverse order? I don’t think I’ve ever checked that but I feel like we have entirely opposite views of the game

Wait, you also have Firebagel as town? Why were you asking it about that? It had the impression you thought that slot was scum and it was gearing up to have to defend it to you once more

[Oblivion]

@Oblivion- the reason we need fire bagel to claim is a dethy is a set group with four sanities that do not know who has what. We’ve already permanently lost experience’s invention so we don’t know his sanity, so it is vital to have the information from the others to make sure we know who is clear and who is not.

Obviously if you don’t want to use the mech, fine, but dethy explicitly is a role that needs to be communicated

Pedit
I have them in the middle, herr has them as town. I’m mostly just trying to get some more data out of you has the read has run a bit stale is all!

Pedit2-
I said mostly you can’t just skip that word

It sees.

It's argument wasn't that Fire was right to be saying it persay but that it is EXCEEDINGLY town for them to be saying. Knowing this context only reafirrms this even more.

[Oblivion]

Sorry, it.... it is hitting a wall. Badly.

[Oblivion]

i think my read on oblivion right now is contingent on upcoming deaths because i feel like, if we're on the right track it looks worse clearly trying to shield who it is shielding. maybe still if like, sunflower flips town regardless but not nearly as convincing. but the posts right now seem genuine to me which is nice

- ydra

it is a little confused here.

It feels genuine to you, but if it is wrong and sunflower is town you suspect it (fair) but if sunflower is town you still suspect it... despite sounding genuine?

It feels as if the Genuine part is at odds with playing both ends of this.

[Oblivion]

i think my read on oblivion right now is contingent on upcoming deaths because i feel like, if we're on the right track it looks worse clearly trying to shield who it is shielding. maybe still if like, sunflower flips town regardless but not nearly as convincing. but the posts right now seem genuine to me which is nice

- ydra

it is a little confused here.

It feels genuine to you, but if it is wrong and sunflower is town you suspect it (fair) but if sunflower is town you still suspect it... despite sounding genuine?

It feels as if the Genuine part is at odds with playing both ends of this.

yes i am weighing that i think your posts are genuine tonally versus my suspicion for your stances (some of which is like, potential suspicion)

- ydra

If you will indulge it in being blunt, it sounds like you're paranoid of it.

[Oblivion]

in my heart im okay with gypyx or oblivion

I like that Oblivion is still being discussed as a scum candidate
I was very underwhelmed with their return to the thread on Thursday/Friday ish

Oh? Care to elaborate on that take?

[Oblivion]

ok big not-sunflower scumread #1 is right here:

in my heart im okay with gypyx or oblivion

I like that Oblivion is still being discussed as a scum candidate
I was very underwhelmed with their return to the thread on Thursday/Friday ish

Oh? Care to elaborate on that take?

this indignation feels very very fake to me
oblivion has done very little this game since the start of day two, which was IRL-related so not an issue
but when it returned it returned to a pattern of essentially posting intricate questions and takes on the game that mean very little:
for example:

So, it has a few reads with how yesterday went down it wants to discuss. It took time to see how the experience wagon developed and was a little confused.

From the Mason claims, can it ask something? Why did Experience's death feel inevitable upon its re-read? Like, there was obstensibly a counter wagon, but it felt like the whole time it was a waiting room for Experience's death. Do you disagree with this take from it? Because it has a follow up observation about this, if it is felt to be accurate.

Additionally, from Marci, can you explain to it what your view of the deathy is in terms of your reads on the other slots?

people have talked about this post already but like..what is even being asked here? what is the goal of these questions? these just seem meaningless to me. and i also do not think it was an accurate assessment of day two either.

Like... correct it if you feel differently but it really views this game and the way yesterday went as the ultimate manipulation of a bunch of ego driven players who love their intelligences and egos stroked and their final reads heard... who were all lead wrong and astray and now we're following through on the second half of that outcome.

And when Sunflower flips town, what then? Probably it or Gypyx? It knows it is town and Gypyx is not likely to be scum here from a post she made earlier when it was reacting to you being a Mason. It just... Saw through. It is CERTAIN Gypyx is town.

So then your PoE as is current is heading through a station towards town, town town chain elimination.

It feels strongly if something doesn't change and quickly, this game is a lost cause.

this is another "the game is fucked, doom and gloom etc" post but again, it doesn't actually do anything to help change this perceived state of wrongness in the game. it's just been kinda wallowing around.

So, it has a few reads with how yesterday went down it wants to discuss. It took time to see how the experience wagon developed and was a little confused.

From the Mason claims, can it ask something? Why did Experience's death feel inevitable upon its re-read? Like, there was obstensibly a counter wagon, but it felt like the whole time it was a waiting room for Experience's death. Do you disagree with this take from it? Because it has a follow up observation about this, if it is felt to be accurate.

Additionally, from Marci, can you explain to it what your view of the deathy is in terms of your reads on the other slots?

I think most of the game had it whittled down to experience or sunflower from that hood, and at that point it’s really a coin flip who goes first. But we now have new information to review with this, is there anyone you think pushed experience in a weird way?

Okay, so it's assessment is correct?

Then it doesn't want to kill Sunflower today. Infact, if we're killing in the Dethy, it would rather kill anyone else, it thinks.

The sensation of the game being a waiting room from its perspective comes from an apathetic status quo, and if it knows anything about status quo, it is that scum only allow that to exist if they are comfortable with the outcome.

There wasn't a weird push on experience. More explicitly... why wasn't there a weird push opposing? Where was the setup by players preparing for the flip? Where was the motility?

It felt as if the game had been reduced to "kill Experience, if not, kill Sunflower" and that scum were okay with this series of events.

again this is almost like a IIoA take. like okay you think scum weren't interfering with the game state yesterday and just let experience get eliminated. okay so what does that mean? who were these scum?
like i can just sit here and go "there were people bussing Brian" all day but it doesn't actually mean much of anything

I agree with CSF that there’s an exorbitant amount of effort today at looking away from sunflower.

It was speaking very much about yesterday, and when it came in today Sunflower was the main wagon and players were saying "we're going to abide by Morph's dead reads" sooooooooooooooooo?

this is again a pretty inaccurate take on how today has gone

Oblivion has yet to voice any real scumreads or opinions today other than a few townreads on sunflower, firebagel and gypyx. it looks like scum trying not to rock the boat to me.

This argument is so manufactured, it's ridiculous. A series of buzzwords and attempts to attack its lack of content for what?

It noticed when Cakez called it out, that it felt as if Cakez was simply reaching for easy targets to scum read, and found one in it due to its position in the game. This case as it goes doesn't do more than cover the surface level of its play, quote stripping a few arguments it has made in its return and misinterpreting them with a series of buzzwords to look active and accurate.

For it, Cakez is the perfect fit of the player who is seeking to perpetuate this game state. The player who benefits from it the most and the player who is pushing for the weakest positioned players to die first almost exclusively. It hasn't seen Cakez buck up once to a player who had more social capital than them. Almost as if Cakez is

intentionally pushing players he thinks he can best, rather than developing real reads.

Which is ironic since Cakez accused another player on the page it quoted him from of "not having a real read", that's what sort of keyed it off to him a bit, because it didn't feel that was a fair descriptor, and it almost felt like projection.

It would MUCH rather kill this slot than Sunflower today.

Vote: Cakez

[Oblivion]

VC 3.3

Sunflower 5 (CSF, SirCakez, Dunnstral, Lukewarm, Shello)
Gypyx 3 (STD, marci, Penguin)
STD 2 (Dannflor, Gypyx)
Bingle 1 (Firebringer)

Not voting - Spiffeh, Oblivion, Hermit, Sunflower, wolfbae, Bingle, Firebagel

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to make an offering to the blood god.

Deadline: (expired on 2024-05-22 22:11:00)

It also wants to remind people that Cakez is currently voting Sunflower while shading it, when Cakez's read on sunflower is basically "well, sheeping what seems reasonable" when he seems to have a much more strongly professed scumread on it.

Almost as if the one who doesn't want to "Rock the Boat" is him, not it.

If Cakez truly felt the way he did about his scumread, he would be voting it and pushing for that outcome today, but he won't. Because he's scared Sunflower will escape if he does that. He's too scared to shake the status quo.

THIS is our scum. This is the player benefitting most from the apathy it was describing.

Kill this with fire.

[Oblivion]

I guess that answers my question

id much rather sheep STD who has good instincts and i think is town here.
If im lost i think he has way better at figuring out best elims.
Also petapan lost his mojo this game so him calling cakez never going to elim cakez screams "this is a good push to do"

Personally i am neutral on cakez even to this point. I can't read him, ill admit it. This isn't a personal read anymore. I don't trust my ability to do so after failing so many times in so many games. I don't trust peta ability to do so either.

Ouch, this feels like an unnecessary discredit

It wanted to vote Cakez last night when it saw the post he made passively shading it and another low hanging fruit slot, but it wanted to poke at him first and see how he would respond. The response only made it more sure of the claims it is currently making, that Cakez is playing positional mafia, not trying to make actual reads. It is as if others are trying to solve and cakez is trying to

Survive.

[Oblivion]

For it, Cakez is the perfect fit of the player who is seeking to perpetuate this game state. The player who benefits from it the most and the player who is pushing for the weakest positioned players to die first almost exclusively. It hasn't seen Cakez buck up once to a player who had more social capital than them. Almost as if Cakez is intentionally pushing players he thinks he can best, rather than developing real reads.

Given the morph flip and how I'm townreading the people early on the Brian wagon, I don't particularly think scum have to be well positioned here

First of all, Cakez isn't the best positioned, so it doesn't know why this is your point.

Second of all, it really does think there needs to be 1 to 2 very deeply positioned scum for how yesterday happened and how the game is progressing to be the case.

[Oblivion]

Its problem is that so much of this game is behind a veneer of neighbourhood nonsense, and players who know each other talking in tongues about whatever they like that it's very hard for it to become certain about anything because it sees one thing and then has players go "no that's not really what is happening, see these people KNOW each other so it's DIFFERENT".

it doesn't tend to vote players until it is confident. This is the first vote it has cast this game. It has been focusing on finding town reads because those are easier to sort of, understand? It can go "no that player looks town" and solve backwards from finding those townies than try to decipher the complex nonsense of whatever interpersonal relationships you all have going on are.

THAT is where it stands, as of current.

[Oblivion]

For it, Cakez is the perfect fit of the player who is seeking to perpetuate this game state. The player who benefits from it the most and the player who is pushing for the weakest positioned players to die first almost exclusively. It hasn't seen Cakez buck up once to a player who had more social capital than them. Almost as if Cakez is intentionally pushing players he thinks he can best, rather than developing real reads.

Given the morph flip and how I'm townreading the people early on the Brian wagon, I don't particularly think scum have to be well positioned here

First of all, Cakez isn't the best positioned, so it doesn't know why this is your point.

Second of all, it really does think there needs to be 1 to 2 very deeply positioned scum for how yesterday happened and how the game is progressing to be the case.

You're literally saying Cakez is scum because he is pushing the weakest positioned players

Oh, and you're saying "no actually i think if we just eliminate the least active most low hanging fruit players we just win"?

You genuinely believe that at this point with how the game is going?

[Oblivion]

Like... correct it if you feel differently but it really views this game and the way yesterday went as the ultimate manipulation of a bunch of ego driven players who love their intelligences and egos stroked and their final reads heard... who were all lead wrong and astray and now we're following through on the second half of that outcome.

Who do you think is doing this maliciously? There's a lot of doom and gloom from you about the game state but not much naming names on who you feel is leading us astray intentionally. I see your scum read on wolfbae and that's fine but I wouldn't really say that wolfbae fits into what you're describing above, so please tell us who fits that bill.

Oblivion I see you're scum reading Cakez, but does anyone else fit the bill I described and asked for from you above?

See its post about the difficulty inserting itself into this game for an answer on this. Wasn't intended to answer this but it does. It has been focusing on town reads and trying to re-engage with the game after painful dental surgery because they're easier to come by and less confused with all the nonsense of this game.

[Oblivion]

It also wants to remind people that Cakez is currently voting Sunflower while shading it, when Cakez's read on sunflower is basically "well, sheeping what seems reasonable" when he seems to have a much more strongly professed scumread on it.

Almost as if the one who doesn't want to "Rock the Boat" is him, not it.

If Cakez truly felt the way he did about his scumread, he would be voting it and pushing for that outcome today, but he won't. Because he's scared Sunflower will escape if he does that. He's too scared to shake the status quo.

So... uh. Not be rude, but did you actually read any of Cakez prior posts today, or is this based solely on the cakez post about you?

Because Cakez made a lot of posts about sunflower being his strongest scum read. He said he did not like sunflower's posts today, and made a small case about sunflowers posts today. He said he scum read sunflower on prior day phases, and he pulled back up his suspicions on sunflower from prior days, ect.

Where exactly do you see him shading the Sunflower wagon? Where do you see his sunflower push being simply "sheeping what seems reasonable"

It is going off Cakez' posting from Day 1 (high Cakez and such) and the posting from today, prior to his post it quoted, prompted BY the post it quoted, and followed up with the reaction it gained from poking at cakez. It has no context from Day 2.

Cakez' posts about sunflower don't differ greatly from others, is its point. Anyone can write a 1000 page essay about why someone they believe is scum is scum, especially if it is already the currently prevailing opinion. It doesn't feel that Cakez has anything noteworthy in those posts, or any real solving intent to begin with from Day 1 or this Day.

[Oblivion]

Besides, if he's writing a whole case on it that he supposedly believes strongly in, why isn't he voting me? As town, it would expect him to consider putting pressure there to try and solidify that read or sell it to others. Why not make that first move? Cakez isn't like it, he doesn't seem to reserve his vote so then why isn't it on it?

It just doesn't feel tonally that cakez' play matches his words, his words already use a lot of buzz terminology to say very little, and this matches with the thigns he has said about sunflower.

Cakez on the whole feels like a player who is just trying to survive, not solve, as it said before.

[Oblivion]

Its problem is that so much of this game is behind a veneer of neighbourhood nonsense, and players who know each other talking in tongues about whatever they like that it's very hard for it to become certain about anything because it sees one thing and then has players go "no that's not really what is happening, see these people KNOW each other so it's DIFFERENT".

I think this is a fair point and understand why it would be hard to get re-engaged especially after your long absence.

For what it's worth, I think this Day phase was the first one to have productive conversation that didn't center as much around circle jerk of The Cabal/neighborhood groups, and I'm hoping it stays that way.

You listed three Town reads earlier. Not including these and the masons, since you've been focusing more on Town reads, are there any other strong town reads you have that you haven't really mentioned yet?

It doesn't think CSF is likely to be mafia with a miller claim in this game? It recognizes that that read is based almost exclusively off of mechanical outguess, but it doesn't think that this game functions without possible millers and redirectors and such and we witnessed a scum redirection power. It feels like the miller claim was possibly a bait thing for scum to use redirects onto millers to create strange results for town.

So it has sort of had CSF binned away as "town" for a while since day 1 and hasn't bothered to re-check that assumption because after d1 flip it really can't see it any other way?

[Oblivion]

It also wants to remind people that Cakez is currently voting Sunflower while shading it, when Cakez's read on sunflower is basically "well, sheeping what seems reasonable" when he seems to have a much more strongly professed scumread on it.

Almost as if the one who doesn't want to "Rock the Boat" is him, not it.

If Cakez truly felt the way he did about his scumread, he would be voting it and pushing for that outcome today, but he won't. Because he's scared Sunflower will escape if he does that. He's too scared to shake the status quo.

So... uh. Not be rude, but did you actually read any of Cakez prior posts today, or is this based solely on the cakez post about you?

Because Cakez made a lot of posts about sunflower being his strongest scum read. He said he did not like sunflower's posts today, and made a small case about sunflowers posts today. He said he scum read sunflower on prior day phases, and he pulled back up his suspicions on sunflower from prior days, ect.

Where exactly do you see him shading the Sunflower wagon? Where do you see his sunflower push being simply "sheeping what seems reasonable"

It is going off Cakez' posting from Day 1 (high Cakez and such) and the posting from today, prior to his post it quoted, prompted BY the post it quoted, and followed up with the reaction it gained from poking at cakez. It has no context from Day 2.

Cakez' posts about sunflower don't differ greatly from others, is its point. Anyone can write a 1000 page essay about why someone they believe is scum is scum, especially if it is already the currently prevailing opinion. It doesn't feel that Cakez has anything noteworthy in those posts, or any real solving intent to begin with from Day 1 or this Day.

But like, I am seeing cakez make 15+ posts about how sunflower is scummy, engaging with people who disagree, making cases.

And then making 1 post that says "BTW, oblivion is my second strongest scum read, and here is why"

And so it is a little hard for me to then swallow your take that if he believes what he writes, he would obviously be voting you

It's how it views this. It feels like a townie in his position with his supposed conviction would have voted it there, and felt comfortable returning to Sunflower if and when he felt it was the better vote. We aren't out of time, he has the ability to attack it and learn new information so

why isn't he solving?

Heck, ignoring a vote on it, why not go back at it with pressure and questions to solve it, instead of making a case it can barely respond to due to the content of the case being so lackluster and buzzwordy? Why solidify the read instead of interrogating it?

[Oblivion]

@Oblivion, where did you think that he was shading the Sunflower wagon?

Wait, when did it say this?

[Oblivion]

Oh, and you're saying "no actually i think if we just eliminate the least active most low hanging fruit players we just win"?

You genuinely believe that at this point with how the game is going?

Your point about low activity feels like a different point than what we were arguing

Sunflower has been active. Idr if Cakez scumreads Firebringer anymore, but he has been active too. Neither are well positioned

I do feel like these popular scumreads are in the right direction; one miselimination does not mean the train has completely derailed

Right but it doesn't feel that Firebringer OR Sunflower are scum. This Firebringer feels somewhat similar to its game with him in PYP mafia, and Sunflower for reasons it has stated is similar.

[Oblivion]

@Oblivion, where did you think that he was shading the Sunflower wagon?

Wait, when did it say this?

Like it is confused, it doesn't think it said this, or if it did it meant something else?

[Oblivion]

It also wants to remind people that Cakez is currently voting Sunflower while shading it

I am sorry, I think I just misparsed this sentence. I read that final it as "the sunflower wagon" instead of "oblivion".

Oh! Pronouns.

Yes, the it at the end was referring to itself, apologies.

[Oblivion]

It was making the argument it was making on this page, that Cakez is currently planted on Sunflower while shading it (Oblivion) and if he were solving there should have been a vote or an interrogation or some kind of activity that would have delved further into either exposing it to others or gaining more on his read.

It doesn't feel like he wants that kind of thing, it doesn't feel like he wants to solve. He's taking surface shots for the sake of lowering its standing and setting up onto it for a future day. That is the take it has.

[Oblivion]

Oblvion pay attention to me pleaseeeee!!

Apologies, it has been intentionally ignoring you since "why are you asking him to elaborate when you're not even fully dug into the game" because it doesn't have the spoons to deal with that and deal with this game.

Did you have a question for it?

[Oblivion]

Like it is making active day to day choices on how much it can invest into this game and still not burn out so, Business Decisions are high on its scale right now,.

[Oblivion]

Oblvion pay attention to me pleaseeeee!!

Apologies, it has been intentionally ignoring you since "why are you asking him to elaborate when you're not even fully dug into the game" because it doesn't have the spoons to deal with that and deal with this game.

Did you have a question for it?

Do you have more solve!!

I wanna see more srs if you have!!

I genuinely think the lack of relationships to the players means you have the best shot to solve if youre town.

It might have enough town reads to start forming a small grouping of players it needs to pay more attention to? Cakez is the first scumread it has felt confident in (and thus, its vote is there). Let it... pull a list of alive players and examine.

[Oblivion]

Firebringer
Dunnstral
Gypyx
Spiffeh
marcistar
Oblivion
Hermit Crab
Save The Dragons
Shello and Goodbye
Sunflower
SirCakez
wolfbae
Bingle
PenguinPower
Dannflor
Lukewarm
Firebagel
Cat Scratch Fever

It is town, Hermit and Bingle are town. It town reads Marci, Bagel, Gypyx, CSF, Firebringer.

Luke can be town based on his interrogation of it here. It also thinks that the interaction with the misunderstanding goes differently if Luke is scum.

Removing those gives it...


Dunnstral
Spiffeh
Save The Dragons
Shello and Goodbye
SirCakez
wolfbae
PenguinPower
Dannflor

It thinks the scumteam resides somewhat wholy within this grouping as of currently. Shello probably town from the whole Morph guilty thing yesterday? It really wishes it felt more confident on them so it could remove them.

PP it just wishes it could see the piece of the mental model it has of them from PYP and remove them.

Dann has tripped none of its radars in their posting, which is usually a good sign but it also hasn't gotten a good mental model there and can't say for certain it finds him town. Maybe this is the slot it needs to address next to see if it can find him for town?

Dunn was scummy to it day 1 but then the whole Pooky thing happened and Dunn was being somewhat... offputting? And it couldn't really tell how to read him past its own feelings at that point, so it needs to look more there.

It thinks that if it can find PP/Dann/Shello as town, (which is who it leans most likely to be town from this grouping) it can solve from there pretty comfortably. It just worries in its haste to find more townies it will misclear someone.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion, I will say that I understand the urge to OMGUS, but from an outsiders PoV, the argument that Cakez should be voting you falls flat.

He is not calling you scum, and voting on a compromise wagon that he does not claim to believe it. He is proclaiming that sunflower is his stronger scum read.

And yeah, as a baseline, I think that it is perfectly reasonable for cakez to have 2 scum reads, and only be voting one of them lol. Especially when both of the following are true (1) he is claiming that sunflower is the stronger scum, and (2) sunflower is obviously the more likely elim for today.

This is literally the same situation I was in last day phase, where I explained my scum read on wolfbae, but voted experience, and wolfbae balked at the fact that I was not voting him.

Show it how you approached Wolfebae and Experience, and let it examine that for differences in approach. If it's the exact same, it might concede you have a point and this is a playstyle thing to how players on this site try to approach things, but it is willing to bet you dove more into Wolfbae and had more staked on it than Cakez does, in both your reads.

[Oblivion]

Can you explain your firebringer read?

Sure. It played with him once before in PYP where it was scum and he was town. It took the opportunity of being scum that game and having full knowledge of the alignments of the players to start building mental models of players incase it came across them in the future. Not so much just meta on "what do they tend to do" but more "what kind of player are they and what drives them?"

From its experience with Firebringer, Firebringer is most motivated by whatever seems fun to them at the moment. If they aren't finding it fun, they're likely to fade. If they are, they'll likely take a strong grasp of a game. As a result, it thinks scum variants of Firebringer are more likely and willing to put up with things they aren't enjoying for the sake of winning.

So for it, given how FB has approached this game and how its understanding of the player evolves, it doesn't think FB can be scum here. It just resonates with the same tone and style it saw before. It also thinks Firebringer's takes have come from a place of "town saying what they feel" and not "Scum imitating this to appear as they normally are".

[Oblivion]

@Oblivion

Spoiler:

VOTE: wolfbae

Luke do you still think Wolfbae is scummy post-gimmick drop?

I think that the reason I was so confident is no longer valid, and that I had picked up on the fakeness of the gimmick, which is independent of their alignment.

I had made that determination yesterday, which is why I did not call for votes again when i came back to the thread after it was dropped, and moved on to other things I felt like i should respond to.

That being said, I am still overall leaning scum on them, but it's not a super confident slam dunk "this is never town" take. More generally scum reading their approach in a lot of posts (their reaction to my initial suspicion, comments on klick, one post about Dunn, and their current stance on me)

I need a computer to really explain, so that won't come until late tonight or possibly tomorrow.

Also the one about legwork

muahaha

VOTE: experience
nobody even TRs this slot, let's get this wagon rolling

I think experience is probably the only other person I'd seriously consider voting right now

Just to start off, I do think that the post that originally made me vote them is probably NAI now that the gimmick has been revealed, but I am still solidly leaning scum on wolfbae

Immediate reaction to my vote

Spoiler:

If this is scum, both morph and shello are almost certainly town

wdym?

If this is scum, both morph and shello are almost certainly town

wdym?

I mean, if you flip red, I am gonna townbin both morph and shello for the rest of the game.

Thanks.

but y tho

I said this already, but this approach seems more likely to come from scum, who feels the need to get the lay of the land on where a correct accusation is coming from, before knowing the right way to react vs townie who knows its meaningless since they would flip town, and at best need to sort me on it. It feels like there is a hesitance to it imo.

It feels like you are ignoring the rest of my chats and I'm wondering why

I think that the reveal that post that originally caused me to vote them was an intentionally manufactured attempt to appear clueless, actually makes me dislike this response even more then when I first saw it. Like, I scum read it when I thought it was real, because "but what alignment do you think I am if you stop looking at my scummiest post" is a scummy angle.

But, if they were town, seeing me hounding them for a post that was a post that they know was an intentionally manufactured attempt to appear clueless, and makes it seem even less likely to come from town who don't understand why I would be so focused on the post.

---

comments while talking about dunn

I'm not doing that, I'm being about as open and transparent as possible because I know I'll be revealed as town eventually and hopefully people will give my reads due consideration after that. I have basically nothing to hide here.

Still feel more or less confident saying Dunn is a wolf. I hope people will re-evaluate that once my alignment is confirmed.

For these to be True Thoughts coming from a town!wolfbae, it would require them to be currently thinking about their own alignment being flipped prior to dunns, in a way that simply does not make sense for them to be thinking about.

It also has a built in belief that people will come back and re-evaluate their dunn reads, based on their flip. Which I don't believe that they actually believe that people are particularly likely to do that.

Which leaves these lines feeling like their actual purpose is to sound like they are secure in the knowledge that they are going to flip town, in order to get town read.

posturing

Simply taking the reads on Dragons as hearsay and working off that feels like a lack of curiosity I'd expect a town to have. The writing off of ActionDan also feels pretty superficial.

And not everyone doing this can even be scum! But some of you are just really not putting in the legwork it feels like

Klick was bleeding town btw, serious skill issue to anyone unable to recognize that. like c'mon the guy's not that hard to read.

[some of their posts about dunn]

[Approximately half their posts about me]

There is a built in implication to their posts that town is simply dropping the ball, not trying, needs to reset, ect.

This feels like the approach needed if they repped into a scum read slot, following a scum flip, with a scum team that did not have the thread standing to save Brian. But not really the pov that makes sense when repping in as town immediately following a day 1 scum elim.

I had read Luke as extremely likely to be scum if Cakez is town based on how he handled the competing wagons on Day 1

Short of wolfbae's main being revealed, and me simply being completely wrong on who they are, I simply don't believe that they would genuinely believe that that was an attempt by me to save Brian. I can see where a passing read through of how it went down could provoke the suspicion, but I think you would have to make a lot of poor assumptions about me as a player to land at it being "extremely likely," and they are not the kind of person who I think would make those.

As a final point, that will likely not help anyone, but I feel it in my bones that their posting this game is vibrating on the same frequency as like my experience with scum!them.

Pedit: ... I am incredibly frustrated that in the time that I have been writing this, wolfbae has made those posts about gypyx, which are the first posts they have made this game that I have resonated with.

I think I could add gypyx to my acceptable elim pile for today.

Also, experience is not doing anything to pull himself out of that pile with his recent posting.

VOTE: experience

was experience's posting that bad after you dropped an entire wall on me?

was experience's posting that bad after you dropped an entire wall on me?

I don't know what you are even asking me here. I was already scum reading experience before those most recent posts. They were just enough to prompt me to follow though with the vote.

You're leaning scum on me enough to drop an entire wallpost on me. So if that's the case why vote experience?

You're leaning scum on me enough to drop an entire wallpost on me. So if that's the case why vote experience?

Because I think that experience has at least as much likelihood to flip scum, and also has the potential to actually be an elim today.

You got a big post because, from my pov you are the most interesting, dynamically updating set of thoughts that I have had on the game recently. Not because I am declaring my intent to endlessly tunnel/push you until you die.

I guess I don't understand what the hierarchy of your reads is supposed to be

if you're confident enough to write a big post casing me you shouldn't be compromising to someone who literally can't be scum with me

If you're more uncertain between us you shouldn't be writing a big post specifically casing me

I guess I don't understand what the hierarchy of your reads is supposed to be

if you're confident enough to write a big post casing me you shouldn't be compromising to someone who literally can't be scum with me

If you're more uncertain between us you shouldn't be writing a big post specifically casing me

That is simply not how I think about when I should explain my reads.

There was simply no reason to wait until I am ready to commit to your elim.

I think it is beneficial to lay the suspicions out there, especially if i feel like my oppinions are novel amongst the player list. Both to make sure that other players are considering my pov before deciding if they trust you, and also for me to see other people's opinions on my takes.

So generally, if a topic is taking up a lot of my game thoughts, I am gonna post about it, unless I see specific utility in waiting.

Can you really not see the difference in intent and actionable reaching for a goal that you have here vs. Cakez has with it?

[Oblivion]

Spiff or bingle, can one of you hammer please?

It doesn't get how people can argue with it that this was somehow not a forgone conclusion and now we are at the point while others are infact mounting a counter wagon, and players are calling for a hammer no discussion just "yep this has to be the death today no substitutes".

How in the fuck is its assessment of events wrong when it is being literally proven right as we speak?

[Oblivion]

VC 3.4

Sunflower 9 (CSF, SirCakez, Dunnstral, Lukewarm, Shello, Penguin, wolfbae, Dannflor, Hermit)
SirCakez 4 (STD, Gypyx, Firebringer, Firebagel)
Gypyx 1 (marci)

Not voting - Spiffeh, Oblivion, Sunflower, Bingle

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to contribute to the skull throne.

Deadline: (expired on 2024-05-22 22:11:00)

It is voting Cakez.

Fixed
-C

[Oblivion]

It received a fruit last night. Not certain that matters or not but for the sake of targets it is claiming

[Oblivion]

It doesn't know what the fruit even do, it just felt that claiming for max info was best.

[Oblivion]

Actually it has been asked zero times since it was never told not to before claiming. If you expect it to follow along with your plans you need to INCLUDE it in your plans and not expect players to just be fully caught up with anything you decide.

Oh, and while we're on that topic, it FULLY agrees with Wolfbae. This game is unbearable to play, it has ZERO agency or desire to even try, and posts like yours just deepen that divide.

Why should it bother playing "cop inventors done in neighbourhoods while egos run everything: the game"?