Eminence in Shadow: Season 1 [Game Over]

[Dunnstral]

If powers that Cid hands out is based on flavor, that might do something. Though that could also tip off mafia. Not sure if there's really a reason to flavor claim anyway, as Cid should pick whoever they think is town rather than guessing at powers behind specific flavor claims.

[Dunnstral]

Nevermind the above, I am reading the game mechanics now and it seems flavor won't help. Plus that exposes Cid I guess.

[Dunnstral]

Last Will: Players can leave a message that will be revealed upon their death. This will be posted on death and can contain anything as long as it doesn't break site rules. [To Clarify you must pm the mod your last will PRIOR to your death]

This could change the way investigative roles play in this game; put results in your will and don't claim inno results

[Dunnstral]

Can you explain why you think so?

[Dunnstral]

this person doesn't play games

???
I'm confused now

they join a bunch of games and then flake

This is the only I'm game in now, I intend to go all out
Feel free to lim me tho if no one else is viable

Why are you alright with being eliminated already?

[Dunnstral]

Onto game related things Kage maaaaybe town?

Why do you see Kage as potential town?

Had the impresion she has having trouble reading pooky

I am not a fan of this reasoning. I thought you were going to talk about how they talked about mech in their first two posts.

[Dunnstral]

I thought you were going to talk about how they talked about mech in their first two posts.

How does that make someone town?

It's light but they did offer new opinions

[Dunnstral]

It's more accurate to say that's an early impression I had rather than a read. I wouldn't have mentioned except in relation to your post.

[Dunnstral]

Hello never watched this show but my character looks hot

👀

[Dunnstral]

How do you feel we should read you?

[Dunnstral]

Sakuras soft defense of the flakes and confusion after they’re voted feels iffy

????

Can you specify what part felt like I was trying to read people?

21 and 24

That's literally just linking my posts. Please explain your thoughts. In great detail. 10 paragraph minimum, no double-spaced lines.

That's a little too much. I already explained my thought process tho? you literally said that "you had no idea how to handle pooky" and that "you were conflicted"

I think you are misreading post 24, I don't see that as pondering Pooky's alignment

[Dunnstral]

In that case, I thought posts 60[post] and [post]64 was a neat thing to notice.

[Dunnstral]

60, 64

[Dunnstral]

So how can this game be 'better'?

[Dunnstral]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying Whemestar would be displaying gratitude for not being pushed if they were mafia?

[Dunnstral]

You find it disturbing? So it's a bad thing? I thought you were saying the opposite.

[Dunnstral]

Your initial argument seemed like nonsense to me, I was trying to understand exactly what you were saying before pointing that out, and then to me it seems like you started saying something that was different from what you had initially said - not intentionally, but it seems you used the opposite words in your first argument.

If you are expecting a different type of engagement... what you were arguing was confusing enough that it needed to be prodded at multiple times to try to understand what you meant.

[Dunnstral]

So everyone is town or hasn't posted much? Except for T3.

[Dunnstral]

Do you have a reason for suspecting Pooky?

[Dunnstral]

What do you mean drawing water out of a stone?

In any case I said I liked their observation there, not the questioning.

[Dunnstral]

Whemestar

What makes you think Whemestar is town?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: duelist

Don't need to read the other 5 pages to know this is one

Duelist didn't even post on the page you posted this, this doesn't make any sense

I believe Cephrir is referring to page 1, and the pages they haven't read are 2-6

[Dunnstral]

Whemestar, did you read the first page of this game before posting?

[Dunnstral]

In that case, I've got nothing further to say about that...

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: PenguinPower

He has lame posts.

[Dunnstral]

[Dunnstral]

Why do you think they can't make that post as mafia?

[Dunnstral]

Can't any character (except Cid) be any alignment?

[Dunnstral]

Alternatively, if they have a fake claim, I'm sure they could make that post in response to that.

[Dunnstral]

Why does he have to have a scum motive. Why can he only say that as town?

[Dunnstral]

And is this line of defense really what Luka meant, anyway?

[Dunnstral]

Oh sorry dun

VOTE: STD

It's okay, they also have lame posts.

[Dunnstral]

Cool. I think KawaiiKame has looked pretty town as well.

[Dunnstral]

I don't like the way Big Chungus Gaming is interacting with Klick slot, but do like the way they are interacting with T3

[Dunnstral]

You were against voting for PenguinPower for being a "low info" wagon, I don't see how this vote is different.

[Dunnstral]

Klick's entrance here feels different from when I modded a game when he replaced into a scum slot a while ago

i need more words this is vague as fuck

It means that I thought Klick might be town for how he behaved when he replaced in

Then I looked at 7 past Klick games in which he replaced in and realized it was NAI

Does Klick usually have a narrow focus when they replace in?

They talk about KawaiiKame but not much else, even bringing in meta from other games.

[Dunnstral]

Why do you think they can't make that post as mafia?

instantly talking about flavor as mafia is weird

You did not seem to react to page 1, where a few players indeed did instantly talk about flavor. There is no indication that this is a part of your reads, which means you're only using this as a reason to townread Whemestar here. Curious.

[Dunnstral]

You did not seem to react to page 1, where a few players indeed did instantly talk about flavor. There is no indication that this is a part of your reads, which means you're only using this as a reason to townread Whemestar here. Curious.

I mean they didnt immediently open with my character is hot out of the blue

But when questioned about why that post was town from Whemestar, you replied with:

Why do you think they can't make that post as mafia?

instantly talking about flavor as mafia is weird

Is there something different about Whemestar's post and the speculation on page 1?

[Dunnstral]

Is there something different about Whemestar's post and the speculation on page 1?

yah
the flavour on d1 doesnt apply to ones own self that they're discussing
also it's less natural

Alright, that makes sense.

[Dunnstral]

Hmm. An ill wind blows.

[Dunnstral]

I don't like the way Big Chungus Gaming is interacting with Klick slot, but do like the way they are interacting with T3

so what's your overall take on that slot then

They are alright. Nothing jumps out at me to make me want to vote for them.

[Dunnstral]

I like SirCakez this game.

VOTE: jjh

VOTE: jjh

there's definitely scum in here regardless of jjh alignment imo, this wagon is terrible

this take

is bad

It's hard for me to differentiate between your slot and PenguinPower between players who are doing pretty much nothing except voting low hanging slots. I think the both of you are way better votes than jjh right now - I don't like voting for slots that are clearly absent, especially because there's nothing to actually point towards jjh being mafia.

I sort of rambled there but my point is your play is lame right now and SirCakez is right.

[Dunnstral]

T3 - What do you think of 504?

I thought that there was a chance you could be disingenuous scum but I buy your explanation

Subject: Hollow Knight Mafia [game over]

wow klick not gonna even bother asking ME about my petapan fanboy townread.
Rude af

Klick honorary scum.

If you can convince me petapan is town I'm also happy to hear it!
The other fire has a way of speaking to my soul though

Here's Klick using the same language as town in a past game btw

What do you think my explanation was? Are you talking about 495?

Yes.

I was under the impression that you were saying "Klick has a scum mindset because he said 'convince me' rather than 'explain to me'"
I thought this was a bad read, and perhaps disingenuous, but I buy your explanation of "I've seen that phrasing be used many times, but I can't say with confidence it's from both alignments" (or something to that effect)

that's not what I meant at all - I don't think he's scum for the wording, I don't doubt he could use those words as either alignment. In the game you linked, he's been playing from the start.

My point is, one of the first things he did on replacing in, was ask to be convinced that the leading wagon is on scum. This makes sense when the VC is more contentious (think competing E-2 wagons), when the game is longer, and reading a lot of pages will be time-consuming, or when the deadline is shorter, and there isn't enough time to read.

None of that applied here which is why I thought it was scummy. What bugs me maybe even more though is your defense of Klick. I dont know why you're first assuming my read is based on Klick's verbiage, and then why you decided to pull meta on Klick to support town!Klick when as far as I can tell you haven't expressed a TR on me (wanting to steer your TRs the right direction) or Klick(wanting today defend your TRs). I'm thinking there's a possibility that my playstyle is being discussed in the scum PT and I'm being targeted for pocketing, which would mean someone on the scumteam is very familiar with me. That brings Gamma and Koba to my mind right off the bat

I don't like this post, specifically the last parts where you theorize mafia are playing around you. It feels more like building a narrative than having real thoughts to me

[Dunnstral]

I have often found that players' particular word choices are strange and done meta-dives where I check if a player normally uses those words. It feels like you, T3, were familiar with that, and you delivered the evidence of town!Klick to me unprompted, and in a manner that I would normally find Klick to be town for myself if this particular SR on Klick was based on his verbiage. I do not think you should have that level of familiarity with my play, which makes me think that you are in a PT with someone that advised you on my meta. Of this playerlist, that someone is almost certainly one of Gamma or Koba, or maybe Dunnstral.

Setting aside how likely this is to be T3 gaining info rather than a coincidence where you are jumping to conclusions, this seems like something I would be unlikely to do. Perhaps if you look at how I play in the mafia threads I have been a part of, you would agree:

viewtopic.php?t=91474
viewtopic.php?t=90969
viewtopic.php?t=90850

I focus on mech, what we should be claiming, potential town power roles, how we look if specific players die at night. I don't talk about player meta in the mafia pt at all.

[Dunnstral]

{KawaiiKame, Sakura Hana, T3}
{Cephrir, Cakez, Alisae, ssbm_Kyouko}
{Luka, WhemeStar, Dunnstral}
{STD, Gamma, Penguin, Pooky, Chungus, jjh}

Is a rough estimate of my current reads

Nice.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Save the Dragons

[Dunnstral]

From the past few pages I am seeing town Whemestar, Klick, and Gamma. If I took Luka's self meta at face value they would be town too - I won't though. Not interested in voting there though.

VOTE: PookyTheMagicalBear

I can see them as mafia and their posting over the last few days has felt weak.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Luka

Sakura / Whem / Pooky / T3 as town
VOTE: Gamma

I feel like most of these slots stated as town were sorted far too quickly based on Luka’s prior posts, I’m leaning on most if not all those slots being TMIed town

Not sure what you are getting at here, why are they sorted too quickly?

[Dunnstral]

I think that the way Pooky is focused on the group of 3 sheeping votes stuff is scummy. I think they are the one focusing on that not really
Klick

[Dunnstral]

ok dunnstral

what would i be focussed on if i was town

the reason i focussed on his grouping argument is because its so ridiculous it borders on too scummy to be scum and i wanted to dig into it to see if he had geniune conviction or if hes mafia just making shit up. i know klick has trouble keeping up in real time and absolutely nothing he has said has made me think hes town with real suspicion because hes just continued to obfuscate with vague verbal tricks.

also his entire argument of he cant see what scum are doing if they arent in the only group of people doing stuff is ludicrious and you should know this since you have played in large themes where scum teams sit on their asses and do absolutely nothing

I feel that by repeatedly going back to that argument you are focused on something that is easier for you to "win" to appear better.

[Dunnstral]

I think that the way Pooky is focused on the group of 3 sheeping votes stuff is scummy. I think they are the one focusing on that not really
Klick

This post feels incomplete pls try again

I think that the way Pooky is focused on the group of 3 sheeping votes stuff is scummy. I think they are the one focusing on that not really
Klick!

[Dunnstral]

I see what you mean now on mobile. Looks fine on desktop, I didn't add a line break.

[Dunnstral]

I have yet to actually see PP play wolf w/o lurking so if they have an active thread presence then that probably points towards them being town unless their actions have blatant wolf motivation

I would not call this an active thread presence.

[Dunnstral]

you are incapable of town reading me and actively look for reasons not to\

it's ok.

So are you saying you do have an active thread presence this game?

[Dunnstral]

I do disagree, I don't think that I am "actively looking for reasons not to"; I believe that is the natural conclusion looking at your content this game. I don't think Alisae looked at your posts before declaring that you are active and town (which is a problem in its own right, really).

[Dunnstral]

You are now doing the same thing that Pooky did and are super focused on one point in an attempt to prove something. Yes Alisae basically did say that, no I don't believe you are active. You had the second least posts before this argument, only above jjh, and a good number of your posts are complaining that the mod isn't providing vote counts or deflecting from ssbm_Kyouko asking you a question in the early game. You trying to paint me as I'm somehow tunneled on you when it's clear that you're not active in this game and I've since moved on to voting Pooky instead. No I'm not ignoring information that would show you are town.

[Dunnstral]

That was a meta statement that spans a long time and a multitude of games. It doesn't mention this game or his read on me this game at all.

I was solely looking at this game. If you feel that I tend to go after you in games, I apologize, but that doesn't change what I've pointed out in this game.

deflecting

weird interpretation of what i was doing - but one i expect from you towards me given my experience with you over the years

What would you say you were doing? I think deflection is an apt description.

If you think I need to deflect that early in the game I can't help you.

...this is, in itself, deflection. Instead of answering a simple question you try to make the other party look dumb and change the topic.

[Dunnstral]

i asked you what you think town me would be talking to him about and you just restated your original post without even answering so why dont you try answering the question

Well I feel I did show what I was thinking. I think you looping back to the same arguments is scum indicative, so if you were town I think you would not be doing that. I don't think you would bring up the same point over and over again. As I said I think you keep going back to this point because it is perhaps the easiest point to argue against - the three people voting together bit.

[Dunnstral]

his case/argument essentially boils down to;

[a] Well I think scum have to be

doing something

in this game

Since Pooky/STD/PP are the ones actively wagoning together in a unit, they must be scum because they are the ones

doing something

this game

This isn't true because in a stagnant game state where not a lot of threatening wagons have appeared and the thread is more or less lethargic because holidays/rl/whatever the scum

do not need to do anything because there is no threat to them

I think you know his point is complete garbage because in your last large theme as scum you didn't do anything and the scum team had no actual plan or tried to do anything and you're just kind of handwaving it to attack me for focusing on it like you expect town!me to not focus on a shitty argument when someone presents it and uses it to push me which is nonsensical.

To be clear, the more you loop back to this, the more I think you are mafia. It doesn't really matter to me whether the three of you voting together is a good way to catch you or not.

[Dunnstral]

the entire premise of your argument is that the "scum team" is trying to "accomplish some goal" by "this point in the game"

here is a completed large theme with Dunnstral in it that finished

viewtopic.php?t=91817

you look at the first 32 pages of that game and you tell me what the fuck the scum team is trying to accomplish

You weren't in this game, is there a reason you brought this game up?

[Dunnstral]

1. I want to know what your strongest reads are at this moment. Which players do you have the most confidence in just being town? Which players do you have a particularly bad feeling about, even if you can't currently justify it? I want to know the opinions that matter most to you atm.

2. Following that, I also want to know what you all think of the following slots:

{STD, Gamma, Penguin, Pooky, Chungus, jjh}

(I'm not solely limited to focusing on those slots, that's just where my own PoE has me atm and I want something to more meaningfully sort between them.)

My end goal is to push the game in a positive direction. I am seeing a lack of cohesion/willingness to drive the game forward all around, and my intention is to change that and get pressure on high equity scum slots.

I also want to trial what happens if I just openly and transparently do this, as opposed to doing it the inconspicuous way. It seems like a good opportunity to try it, considering the stagnant game state.

My reads look like this right now:

[T3, Cephrir, SirCakez, Gamma Emerald, Sakura Hana, Klick, KawaiiKame, Whemestar]
[jjh927, Alisae, ssbm_Kyouko, Luka, Save the Dragons]
[Big Chungus Gaming, PenguinPower, pookythemagicalbear]

My strongest reads here. Let's say you and Sakura Hana. Sakura Hana is quite good at looking town on day 1 when mafia but I like the way they are pushing the game and trying to get people to go back and respond to what they've missed. I do currently think the other 6 names at the top are town but since I have so many names up here I'm not confident. Not really confident that there's more than 1 mafia within Save the Dragons, PenguinPower, or pookythemagicalbear, and when typing this I've realized that Save The Dragons feels the least likely out of the three to be mafia to me. That might be bad reasoning. jjh is null due to no content, which puts them above other people. Big Chungus is slightly below null, I just feel something is off with them. Wary of ssbm_Kyouko and Luka. I don't feel like Alisae has done anything to show their hand either way. I feel like those on top have done something to make me think they are town.

[Dunnstral]

No I never egged Klick on. I said you were the one repeatedly bringing focus back to that, not Klick. I think you are trying to make this point out to be a much bigger part of this push than it is.

[Dunnstral]

Pooky you know I have my own reasons for scumreading you, and I don't have to explain everything Klick is doing to be allowed to have my own read. You're wrong that the scum team didn't have a plan in the game I played that you linked - our plan was to survive and shoot a bunch of people. We just weren't very good at it.

[Dunnstral]

Can you quote where I said Klick has a good push?

[Dunnstral]

Can you quote where I said Klick has a good push?

[Dunnstral]

It's not semantics, you posted 20 times and several posts you've made are based on things that aren't true or never happened. Let's slow down and start fact checking instead of making baseless assertions.

[Dunnstral]

I'm going to go back and look at Klick's push and cross-check it with what you've been saying over the last few pages and seeif you're correct.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: PookytheMagicalBear

Yeah let's kill Pooky

So the Cakez wagon did in fact have no teeth, and the {Pooky/Penguin/Dragons} trio literally in order followed each other from the Cakez wagon to the jjh wagon

this isnt even true

they followed me

claiming that we followed each other is just straight lying

Semantics
If you want to demonstrate that that difference has any significance then feel free

Day 1 - Our Story Begins
Vote Count 1.05

Sir Cakez [4][E-5] - PookytheMagicalBear, Penguinpower, Save The Dragons, Alisae,
PookytheMagicalBear [2][E-7]- SirCakez, Cephrir
Klick [2][E-7] - ssbm_Kyouko, Sakura Hana,
Sakura Hana - [1][E-8]- KawaiiKame,
KawaiiKame [1][E-8]-- Gamma Emerald,
Penguinpower [1][E-8] - Dunnstral,
Dunnstral -[1][E-8]- Klick
Cephrir [1][E-8] - jjh927
jjh927 [1][-E8] - Big Chungus Gaming ,
Save the Dragons [1][E-8] Whemestar
Gamma Emerald - [1][E-8] - Luka

Lurking in Shadows (Not Voting - 1) : T3

Day 1 - Our Story Begins
Vote Count 1.06

jjh927 [5][-E4] - Big Chungus Gaming , Klick, PookytheMagicalBear, Penguinpower, Save The Dragons,
Big Chungus Gaming -[2][E-7]-T3, Cephrir
PookytheMagicalBear [1][E-8]- SirCakez
Sakura Hana - [1][E-8]- KawaiiKame,
KawaiiKame [1][E-8]-- Gamma Emerald,
Penguinpower [1][E-8] - Dunnstral,
Cephrir [1][E-8] - jjh927
Sir Cakez [1][E-8] - Alisae,
Save the Dragons [1][E-8] ssbm_Kyouko,
Gamma Emerald - [1][E-8] - Luka,
Klick - [1][E-8] - Whemestar

Lurking in Shadows (Not Voting - 1) : Sakura Hana,

So the Cakez wagon did in fact have no teeth, and the {Pooky/Penguin/Dragons} trio literally in order followed each other from the Cakez wagon to the jjh wagon

you're literally just taking snapshots in time without looking at the context of what actually happened.

I voted for Cakez - then BCG/PP/STD/Sakura/Alisae followed me on the same day to put Cakez at E-3.

cakez re-enters thread at 327 and asks why is pooky not at e-1 which is ? dunnstral asks him whats the reason for suspecting pooky immediately 6m to try to get an answer from cakeboi. Cakes answer is 333 which is basically not answering the question at all.

I dunno if thats just cakez being his usual scummy self or scum cakez being put on the spot by dunn and not having a good answer but I certainly dont see a "train of thought". he then says some shit about me stretching at a gum factory and claiming the wagon on him is garbage which I can see him doing as either alignment.

now compare this to Cakez/Me last game together where we were town/town this is his iso;

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=83&t=91473&user_select%5B%5D=26092

yea he says some shit about me but he doesnt really take the joke too far. he's got nuanced thoughts about ydrasse and votes her and is actively doing things. he even says he thinks he shouldnt push me or SR me because if I'm scum i'll just be obnoxious to him and it'll be difficult. Which is a pretty reasonable thing to believe about me and one of the reasons I ended up TRing him in this game because his thoughts made sense.

here in this game I have no idea what he's doing. wagoning him didn't really give me a readable response so I moved on and I'm giving him space to do his own thing because I think voting him is just going to cause him to become more intractable/hostile and that's not really useful in any way.

I'll look at this context later
Your explanation doesn't feel hugely relevant to the pattern I'm observing but I understand its importance to your perspective atm

So the Cakez wagon did in fact have no teeth, and the {Pooky/Penguin/Dragons} trio literally in order followed each other from the Cakez wagon to the jjh wagon

this isnt even true

they followed me

claiming that we followed each other is just straight lying

Semantics
If you want to demonstrate that that difference has any significance then feel free

if you want to claim we are a band of murderous rogues I demand proper credit as the leader/mastermind

Completely understandable

It mainly feels significant in terms of, I'd expect at minimum 1 scum between the three of you not feeling towny and shamelessly bouncing between Cakez and jjh

I'm saying {Pooky/Penguin/STD} is a unit that i expect to be high % scum because none of you are towny and idk what else scum is intentionally doing at all if they're not involved there

Beyond that I'm not making a statement of higher significance
I'm happy with where I have staked my claim

What reason do I have to look specifically at scenarios in which {Pooky/Penguin/STD} are all town

I do love how you went from "

I can't think of any alternatives

" to "this is the most likely scenario and we can think of an infinite number of alternative hypotheticals"

[citation needed]

I forgot that I'm not supposed to talk to the scum

I'm saying {Pooky/Penguin/STD} is a unit that i expect to be high % scum because none of you are towny and idk what else scum is intentionally doing at all if they're not involved there

I think this would make more sense if you made the group {Penguin, STD}. and even then I wouldn't agree there is "high%" - ">rand" maybe?

More importantly though, why is Pooky a part of the group if Penguin and STD are following his vote around? Independent of other players, how is he scum?

I think what's notable is being part of the makeup of the two major wagons so far, not necessarily the sheeping itself

I don't have a case to give on Pooky!scum outside of what I've already talked about.

if i could sue you for damages i would file a claim in mafiascum court for wasting my time on utterly trite bullshit

At the end of the day, you took reasoning that was fairly simple and easy to understand and that I didn't ultimately care that much about, asked 20,000 questions about it, and now that I've answered you in full, you're claiming that

I've

wasted

your

time.

Engage with me when you have something more important to talk about than, as you say, utterly trite bullshit.

Here is what I see as Klick's push on Pooky

Here is the issue: You voted for SirCakez, and then voted for jjh, but neither of the votes you have made were accompanied with good reasoning. When asked about Cakez, you simply say "what's townie about cakez" which is not really an answer.

You

do

later talk about Cakez later in 657, but only after the start of this push by Klick. The post you make here is pretty reasonable though, and I don't have a problem with it.

Look at post 666 by Klick above. It seems clear to me that while Klick does think you are mafia for the reason that "mafia must be doing something", it is nowhere near the amount of significance you seem to be placing on it. They say as much in the next post. They mention this again in post 709.

Now let's loop back to the reason I am scumreading you, and what I think you are doing as mafia here that you wouldn't do as town. I think you are hyper focused on one specific aspect of this push against you, what I would call the easiest part of the push to argue against, and are trying to make this all about that, to the extent that you are now even accusing me of things related to it when I never really interacted with that reasoning myself before. I think you, as mafia, want to talk about this, and you can't get over it.

[Dunnstral]

so you think his push is bad ?

can you stop being coy and playing around with words

I'm not being coy, you're flooding the thread with assertions that don't have much basis, and I want you to go back and fact-check yourself instead of moving on to the next assertion and flooding the thread with new half-baked assertions... which makes it really difficult to try to disprove each one.

[Dunnstral]

Here is the issue: You voted for SirCakez, and then voted for jjh, but neither of the votes you have made were accompanied with good reasoning. When asked about Cakez, you simply say "what's townie about cakez" which is not really an answer.

You do later talk about Cakez later in 657, but only after the start of this push by Klick. The post you make here is pretty reasonable though, and I don't have a problem with it.

yes I talked about how I thought about Cakez alignment after Klick pushed me and claimed I wasnt sorting Cakez.

this is because its important to show my thought process if people think i'm mafia for not thinking

its not good for me to show my thought process while pushing someone to sort them because thats literally giving them the answer key and makes the sorting pretty useless

OK. This is just explaining Klick's point of view when they were pushing you. At the time, you hadn't explained anything so it's fair to have been on you for that.

[Dunnstral]

i asked you what you think town me would be talking to him about and you just restated your original post without even answering so why dont you try answering the question

Well I feel I did show what I was thinking. I think you looping back to the same arguments is scum indicative, so if you were town I think you would not be doing that. I don't think you would bring up the same point over and over again. As I said I think you keep going back to this point because it is perhaps the easiest point to argue against - the three people voting together bit.

WHAT OTHER POINT DOES HE EVEN HAVE

OK. Let's go back here, you keep asking me this question: what other arguments does Klick have? In truth, it seems Klick thinks you are mafia because you are not towny while other players are, and the weird voting thing is them pointing at a group of people and saying they expect there to be mafia within that group.

My issue with you I've said. If you're town I don't know what I'd expect you to be doing, but what I am seeing from you makes me think you are mafia.

[Dunnstral]

@Klick

: Within the reasoning you've given so far, i think out of the 3 it's more likely pooky town and 2 sheep scum than an entire scumteam piling up, like when does that even happen. More importantly consistently during the day.

@BCG

: Please answer the questions i gave you during my re-read

like this is the way sakura engaged with klicks point about scum teams having a plan

the way you engaged was basically to ignore him when you know that its not a good point

reeks of scum being selective in their memory for advantage

like if you're mafia and klick is town pushing me I can see you just ignoring that point because you know it doesnt help your position in this game and you want him to keep pushing me attracting all of my fire

meanwhile you chip in with this nonsense about how im "focussing" on one aspect therefore im scum which is nonsense because it was literally the only thing he even presented for me to talk about

so again i ask you for the fourth time WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TOWN ME TO EVEN RESPOND HIM WITH

First three lines here, I'm not sure why I need to engage with Klick's push. From your PoV maybe that's appreciated, but don't forget that I voted you before Klick did and have my own, separate reasoning for thinking you are mafia. From my PoV, agreeing with Klick is not required. I engaged with you, not with Klick.

You again keep talking about how you only have one thing to talk about by Klick. I think you blew this one thing way out of proportion, and are making discussion revolve around this point.

[Dunnstral]

My issue with you I've said. If you're town I don't know what I'd expect you to be doing, but what I am seeing from you makes me think you are mafia.

I don't even have a mafia incentive to create wagons so not even this part is correct

Not the wagon part. The way you are responding to this push on you is what makes me think you are mafia.

[Dunnstral]

ok so you think I should be talking to Klick about his POE in a large theme game where the game just started and nothing really has happened except me+friends wagoning two people

sure dunnstral how should I be talking to him about his POE

To be clear, I didn't say this. I don't know what you "should be" doing. What you "are" doing looks like you are mafia.

[Dunnstral]

My issue with you I've said. If you're town I don't know what I'd expect you to be doing, but what I am seeing from you makes me think you are mafia.

I don't even have a mafia incentive to create wagons so not even this part is correct

Not the wagon part. The way you are responding to this push on you is what makes me think you are mafia.

because

I've explained why. You keep going back to the same point and I think that is how mafia responds to this push.

[Dunnstral]

I don't know exactly what to expect from you as town. I don't know what you 'should' be doing, and that is not important to me.

[Dunnstral]

My issue with you I've said. If you're town I don't know what I'd expect you to be doing, but what I am seeing from you makes me think you are mafia.

I don't even have a mafia incentive to create wagons so not even this part is correct

Not the wagon part. The way you are responding to this push on you is what makes me think you are mafia.

because

I've explained why. You keep going back to the same point and I think that is how mafia responds to this push.

ok and you think town would respond how when someone pushes them with a point that is nonsensical

What I would do is try to make them prove their point if that is relevant, something which, if nonsensical, is likely not possible and will reveal their point as such.

As for what you would do? I don't know.

[Dunnstral]

I don't know exactly what to expect from you as town. I don't know what you 'should' be doing, and that is not important to me.

yea exactly so you're more interested in narrative pushing than actually sorting my behavior

I've sorted your behavior as mafia. I don't need to know exactly what you would do as town to think the way you are responding is mafia. I think you are repeatedly trying to twist my arguments.

[Dunnstral]

I think it's clear that you are not engaging in good faith or understand where I am coming from, and are instead trying to twist everything I say. You also continue to flood the thread with new questions instead of going back and fact-checking what you've already said. I'm going to bow out from this conversation. I suspect somebody will come in, see you've made angry posts, and lazily call you town. To that person, I implore you to rethink things.

[Dunnstral]

I tried for over an hour.

[Dunnstral]

still not worth pushing d1 or even d2 but i trust pooky explicitly while dunns i think is a very "must watch carefully" slot still

I don't think this is an opinion you had before, actually, and instead seems to be a reaction to seeing my read on you.

[Dunnstral]

...this is, in itself, deflection. Instead of answering a simple question you try to make the other party look dumb and change the topic.

that...

that was the answer....

it's a meme of what i was doing at the beginning of the game...i was memeing....

like...are you for real?

I don't get what you are doing then. You started off saying that me calling your posts deflection was a weird interpretation, but then turned around and said that was correct?

Here's the situation as i understand it and why i think it's a misunderstanding, this will probably be the only post i make in the matter and only coz i wanna try and facilitate you guys understanding each other. I don't really want to add up to this "war" between i wanna end it instead.

Klick

: The argument here is that the 3 were voting together but are also

Independently scummy

is just another reason to think they are scum.

Pooky

: The argument here is that he's hyperfocusing on one thing, but that was also part of Klick's and Dunnstral's push of him so he was trying to understand the push to sort them.

Dunnstral

: On your case, I'm not sure i think it was just an engagement born of misunderstanding what Pooky was doing and so you ended up wrongly enphasising those points.

Did i get that right?

What am I misunderstanding?

[Dunnstral]

So what made you put ssbm_Kyouko as top townread never change by post 210 where you first made your list?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Save The Dragons

[Dunnstral]

Dunn from the future here. Save The Dragon's content around page 50 is scummy and I think we should vote them out.

[Dunnstral]

the entire premise of your argument is that the "scum team" is trying to "accomplish some goal" by "this point in the game"

here is a completed large theme with Dunnstral in it that finished

viewtopic.php?t=91817

you look at the first 32 pages of that game and you tell me what the fuck the scum team is trying to accomplish

You weren't in this game, is there a reason you brought this game up?

T3 wasn't in Hollow Knight as far as I could tell, is there a reason you

didn't

bring that up?

I wasn't in that game either so wouldn't have known that.

[Dunnstral]

4. Dunnstral - don't remember any posts

Fake read spotted.

[Dunnstral]

I think Luka is town

[Dunnstral]

Same image for flavor 3 times in a row

[Dunnstral]

Lots of fanfare for a naked vote

[Dunnstral]

So how much of the thread have you read, and what made you vote ssbm_Kyouko?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Big Chungus Gaming

[Dunnstral]

What separates jjh and Gamma from bottom tier

Neither of them are voting for him

[Dunnstral]

T3 - What do you think of 504?

I thought that there was a chance you could be disingenuous scum but I buy your explanation

Subject: Hollow Knight Mafia [game over]

wow klick not gonna even bother asking ME about my petapan fanboy townread.
Rude af

Klick honorary scum.

If you can convince me petapan is town I'm also happy to hear it!
The other fire has a way of speaking to my soul though

Here's Klick using the same language as town in a past game btw

What do you think my explanation was? Are you talking about 495?

Yes.

I was under the impression that you were saying "Klick has a scum mindset because he said 'convince me' rather than 'explain to me'"
I thought this was a bad read, and perhaps disingenuous, but I buy your explanation of "I've seen that phrasing be used many times, but I can't say with confidence it's from both alignments" (or something to that effect)

that's not what I meant at all - I don't think he's scum for the wording, I don't doubt he could use those words as either alignment. In the game you linked, he's been playing from the start.

My point is, one of the first things he did on replacing in, was ask to be convinced that the leading wagon is on scum. This makes sense when the VC is more contentious (think competing E-2 wagons), when the game is longer, and reading a lot of pages will be time-consuming, or when the deadline is shorter, and there isn't enough time to read.

None of that applied here which is why I thought it was scummy. What bugs me maybe even more though is your defense of Klick. I dont know why you're first assuming my read is based on Klick's verbiage, and then why you decided to pull meta on Klick to support town!Klick when as far as I can tell you haven't expressed a TR on me (wanting to steer your TRs the right direction) or Klick(wanting today defend your TRs). I'm thinking there's a possibility that my playstyle is being discussed in the scum PT and I'm being targeted for pocketing, which would mean someone on the scumteam is very familiar with me. That brings Gamma and Koba to my mind right off the bat

I assumed your read was based on Klick's verbiage, yes. I don't see why my misunderstanding of your read makes me scum. I do not have a strong read on either you or Klick, and I defended him from you because I thought your point was illogical. And how does this connect to pocketing you at all?

I feel like the simplest conclusion one would draw reading my 495 is not that my scumread was based on Klick's verbiage, but that it's based on my thinking Klick did not display a town mindset in his [ppst]412[/post]. However, someone who knows me well would know that it is not uncommon for me to nitpick on verbiage as town. I have often found that players' particular word choices are strange and done meta-dives where I check if a player normally uses those words. It feels like you, T3, were familiar with that, and you delivered the evidence of town!Klick to me unprompted, and in a manner that I would normally find Klick to be town for myself if this particular SR on Klick was based on his verbiage. I do not think you should have that level of familiarity with my play, which makes me think that you are in a PT with someone that advised you on my meta. Of this playerlist, that someone is almost certainly one of Gamma or Koba, or maybe Dunnstral.

ok i am just reading this but imma be real with u but even if i was scum i would not have been able to tell anyone much about your play and how to play around your slot, a side effect of having a good handle on your alignment very quickly is that i barely pick up on more nuanced parts of your play :skull:

i will say - t3 knowing who I am fairly quick was something mild that pinged me earlier (if I am remembering correctly. I sure am having some bad memory problems this game huh)
I never announced my name, and it was mostly known to pooky afaik from the last game i played on this account(and by extension dunnstral too actually)

i will keep t3/dunn as paired in the back of my head though - in my experience this is more a kinda "bragging rights" type of read that is too variable to commit to but good to think about when sorting other content.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. and i'm over with.

1. Not_Mafia
   Gamma Emerald
   
   
2. Enchant
   Nero Cain
   
   
3. Frogsterking
   
4. MalcolmTucker
   
5. Alisae
   Greeting
   
   
6. KittyTacky
   
7. JohnnyFarrar
   Big Chungus Gaming,
   Crescent
   
   
8. Lukewarm
   Save The Dragons
   
   
9. furtiveglance
   Fennec
   
   
10. PookyTheMagicalBear
    
11. Cape90
    
12. Titus
    SirRhett
    
    
13. Toogeloo
    
14. MathBlade
    Charloux
    
    
15. marcistar
    
16. MariaR

I wasn't in this game.

[Dunnstral]

I don't find the extreme omgus and bad faith arguments coming from Big Chungus Gaming slot to be town
I don't think Pooky is town either

It is annoying to me that both are being binned as town for wall posting arguments without really reading into the arguments. That's the feeling I get at least.

[Dunnstral]

Top Town:
Sakura
Alisae
Kyouko

Prob Town:
Kage/Klick
T3
PP

NAI:
Dunn
Luka
Gamma

Need to analyze:
Fenrir, Cephrir, Star,
pooky, bcg, jjh, cakez

key word there is competent

Why is my play incompetent in your eyes? What's holding me back?

You went from having good posts early to trying hard as possible to avoid talking about anything.

Your lack of thoughts on slots like me, pooky, and bcg doesn't line up with what is happening in the game.

[Dunnstral]

If you check his site activity, he's been active on-site around the time the Cakez wagon was peaking, yet he's been avoiding posting here when Cakez is his townread, why?

Game had 10+ new pages and I didn't have time to catch up. My motivation here is low anyway.

[Dunnstral]

What do you want me to do about sircakez getting wagoned, exactly? I didn't vote for them

[Dunnstral]

Alright

[Dunnstral]

I find what ssbm_Kyouko to be doing now to be a lot townier than what I was sawing earlier in the game

[Dunnstral]

Seeing.

[Dunnstral]

Cakez and Gamma tells are the same tell with different outlets, which is why I'm pretty confident in Cakez, because it looks the same to me, and the tell has been accurate on Gamma.

For Cakez - he uses the word bullshit or bs from time to time, as both alignments, but he misuses it as scum. He uses it in situations where he surely does not have full conviction about what he is saying.

Gamma does the same thing when she gets heated. She says things that she would say as either alignment, but the words lack conviction. I recently read through 10+ games of Gamma's looking for posts with these types of words and correctly identified her alignment in all of the games that contained 'heated' posts. I also was able to guess correctly most, if not all of the time when the tell was not present just by skimming her ISO. I know she is scum here.

Reviewing Cakez's games I am less confident because I didn't spend as much time doing it as I did Gamma, and I specifically sought out games where he said bs or bullshit, checked his alignment first, and then checked the context to see if his use of the word felt justified. It seemed reasonably easy to tell when his usage lacked conviction, though I did know he was scum when looking. With Gamma's games I didn't check her alignment first and I read all of her games. With Cakez i could search for a key word and find specific games.

So what makes Gamma posts lack conviction in this game?

[Dunnstral]

Well I would also vote for PenguinPower.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Penguin Power

Would rather not eliminate jjh

[Dunnstral]

12 hours a day is my cutoff for voting twitch streamers.

[Dunnstral]

I was confused why Sakura keeps saying I am elitelling, so I checked my sitewide posting history and discovered that several posts I've made in this game are missing from that page.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: penguin
I read his iso and pengys basically voting any viable wagon to save himself, dude is scum. hes playing to his coasty, low-content scum meta too.

Does everyone in this game have a coasty low-content scum meta this game or what, i feel like i've heard this about others (like jjh and dunn(?)

[Citation Needed]

) as well.

I post more when I'm mafia, it is known

[Dunnstral]

You were saying I was ellitelling after I explained why I wasn't posting.

[Dunnstral]

Like it is evidently obvious i'm using that post as a base to read your ellitell as pretty damning and the fact that you keep ignoring it isnt helping.

Make it clear what you want me to respond to

[Dunnstral]

cool story bro

Why are you voting for me?

[Dunnstral]

Like it is evidently obvious i'm using that post as a base to read your ellitell as pretty damning and the fact that you keep ignoring it isnt helping.

Make it clear what you want me to respond to

1557 this is the last time.

I hadn't read up so didn't see that SirCakez was being wagoned. Pooky pushing this angle seems weird given I hadn't posted. Guns and Roses is 1 game and I died pretty early on, there are other games where I post more as mafia and there are games where I don't post a lot as town.

[Dunnstral]

Actually I averaged about 12 posts per day in guns and roses. Not at all lurking. 64 posts and I was eliminated about 7 real life days into the game.

[Dunnstral]

And in this game I'm averaging 7.5 posts per day.

[Dunnstral]

Heck I have the most posts of anyone on the scum team in that game.

viewtopic.php?t=91817

You can look for yourself.

[Dunnstral]

Can you point out where in Guns and Roses I am 'doing nothing' as claimed?

[Dunnstral]

[T3, Cephrir, SirCakez, Sakura Hana, Klick, Whemestar, ssbm_Kyouko]
[Katsuki, Gamma Emerald, jjh927, Alisae, Luka, Big Chungus Gaming]
[Save the Dragons, PenguinPower, pookythemagicalbear]

Let's say it's like this now

[Dunnstral]

Like it is evidently obvious i'm using that post as a base to read your ellitell as pretty damning and the fact that you keep ignoring it isnt helping.

Make it clear what you want me to respond to

1557 this is the last time.

I hadn't read up so didn't see that SirCakez was being wagoned. Pooky pushing this angle seems weird given I hadn't posted. Guns and Roses is 1 game and I died pretty early on, there are other games where I post more as mafia and there are games where I don't post a lot as town.

So in short, activity is not a measure to read you? What are your current reads?

If you're bringing up activity you better be comparing to my town game, not to what other players post. But some people have made the argument in the past that I post more as mafia and they showed their work.

[Dunnstral]

Maybe move Luka up I don't really think they are mafia.

[Dunnstral]

cool story bro

Why are you voting for me?

I think you should be able to answer this easily

[Dunnstral]

I've left instructions in my last will.