Mini Theme 2328: Death Note: Second Page. Day 3!

[ActionDan]

Well, this one generally tries to mix up its approach at least a little every game, but also after tunneling hard on you last time and being wrong its time to see if doing the opposite will make me right.

sure it makes perfect sense

VOTE: HPE

VOTE: HPE

I get a visceral reaction from both Cuddle's name and avatar that makes me want to execute them but they look town to me currently

[ActionDan]

I might have found Aureal's aggression and questioning towny if it weren't for her being in the wrong at every turn. It sours me.

Slightly related but flavor discussion makes me itchy as I can see it being used as an avenue to communicate to Kira who their followers are. I haven't seen anything explicit yet though.

As many have said Klick's entrance is doodoo.

[ActionDan]

@cuddles : I can't shake that your post 7 and 8 doesn't come from scum. Rest of your hydra's posting is fine.

[ActionDan]

@HPE, what changed between post 60 and 71?

[ActionDan]

Not really saying much when the chance of there being at least one scum in any 3 names is 16/21. That's higher than 75%

[ActionDan]

But your slot has made 37 posts and the rest of us have barely got double digits. Couple that with the hydra dissonance you're already showing at best you're a net negative for the town right now. But since your slot has given the most content my honest opinion is that it is pretty anti-town with the hydra dissonance alone.

That's a weird sentiment because what hydra dissonance have we shown???

Unless I'm missing something all of us have been scumreading HPE and that's mostly it?

Have to agree here though that the hydra dissonance argument just Doesn't Make Sense right. This one IS kneejerking at Adorable shenanigans but what the hell is everyone else on this slot doing?

Can you expand on your knee jerking? Why is that so?

[ActionDan]

@black: Seems to me the main problem was the way you phrased it differently than your intent. I happen to agree those 3 posts in succession merit questioning. But leaving it as 'lookie here, surely there's a bad un in this batch of apples' isn't saying anything much on the surface. T-bone has said his piece about the dissonance of the klick read whiplash (if I'm understanding correctly) which was warranted before extra fuel to the fire was added.

I am now curious about the HPE and Hu tao's reasons.

[ActionDan]

I might have found Aureal's aggression and questioning towny if it weren't for her being in the wrong at every turn. It sours me.

What on earth does that mean? What am I wrong about?

As many have said Klick's entrance is doodoo.

You explain this too please.

It would require an essay to explain every fallacy in your conversation with the Hydra - I really don't care to do that.

As for Klick he came in and engaged with a trivial post and his rejoinder was not germane

@cuddles : I can't shake that your post 7 and 8 doesn't come from scum. Rest of your hydra's posting is fine.

VOTE: HIGH PRINCESS SCUMRINYS

We've been opposite alignments for 4 games in a row, don't see a reason it would change now.

Okay bye I'm going to play the marathon NewD3 now.

????

The first one totally sounds like something I would say, and I'm always town so maaaaaybe I could kinda see it being towny (but really that's probably just a personal quirk of mine). But I definitely disagree on the second, it feels somewhat pre-emptively defensive to need to announce that you're leaving to do something else.

I allow myself some idiosyncrasies to how I judge some early statements. I wasn't married to the read but after post 164 I'm quite happy with it.

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

You're welcome to share that.

[ActionDan]

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

This train of thought confuses me. Clearly you think HPE has likely

already

let it slip. So I don't understand what more there would be to gain here. We're not going to get confirmation of HPE being follower or not. And you saying to all of us that you think Dan could be Kira to HPE's follower, if true surely just makes them that much more careful to try not to look like that. I don't know why you would say it if you're only just thinking it's a possibility, so this doesn't feel like a real thought that you have and that distresses me.

The post you quoted is mostly me trying to answer Hu Tao with as little information as possible. Because several people at this point want to extract everything they can out of my reasoning before neither HPE nor ActionDan give an adequate response.

I misread your post before. I thought you were directly saying you thought HPE slipped that I was Kira not that they have the chance to maybe do so. I would like to know what adequate response you are expecting? Because as far I can tell I'm not being accused of anything. If you had reasons to throw my name there instead of anyone else's then you're welcome to share them.

[ActionDan]

This is a prod-dodge. last few pages do look content-rich though

On me specifically, I feel like ActionDan wants to express skepticism of me without actually committing to something resembling a vote or a scumread:

Don't you think skepticism might be appropriate when you elect without support to throw my name into the fire? I think it was earned regardless of your other postings at the time (of which the ones I took any note of after the first was the Cuddle defense post town read and T-bone town read both of which I agree with) and I would tend to think you would recognize this. Especially if the purpose of it looks to be reaction testing in which we naturally attempt to walk in the target's shoes.

[ActionDan]

I will get in a lengthy reread tonight

[ActionDan]

Notes:

Post 26 from HPE is still the scummiest post in the early game.
The change in attitude from 60 vs 71 does not make much sense regardless of what justification one might use. If this for any reason is tied to 80 then that is worse as Adorable is perfectly understandable.

By page 5 both Black / Gimli offering Aureal town reads citing "Aggression" are shallow 70, 107 . Aureal back and forth with CT is mirrors what is typical for the early game (much like grasping at straws) but content from Aureal's side if it was given a deeper look should not be garnering such reads.

102 is not germane to the game but worse is 105 which unnecessarily shoots down HPE for a fair point.

119 "Klick is obvtown since his 2nd post" is not true. If this was some reference to a post during the fake reaction testing thing that he clearly saw coming, it would not be true either.

Noting that on page 6 I agree with HPE here in that I had not seen Hydra dissonance until that page. T-bone somehow managing to catch that there was private dissonance makes him a better sleuth than I since I was not sensitive to it occurring based on Dragon's testimony. I take Hydra dissonance in stride as it is hard to help it regardless of Hydra's alignment, However it is true that reveling in dissonance is scummy for Hydras. That particular level has not even remotely occurred thus far.

I think HPE is scum for several reasons: its approach to Adorable, specifically soft defending it but not really townreading it, feels scum motivated and similar to how I've seen it interact with town (as scum) in Mini Normal 2322

This resonates with me. Eating your cake and having it too is how I would describe it after posts like 145 147 158. There is a logic about voting a "policy lim" until something better comes along but its undercut by the reason its a policy lim, that is, being expected to be dissonant and a net negative to town and also being personally fine with Hydra's current play. That and I don't see what makes Adorable incite a kneejerk reaction so conclusion is that all of this is fake.

167 I think Dragon sounds more town than Black sounds anything atm. I also like Thomith and Adorable is just fine. There is a large gradient of movement here suggesting town basically.

173 This is correct.

186 I suppose this is better late than never.

--- I sense the game transitions from here to a new phase.

I'm simply not into Aureal's posting on page 8. I'm a little biased here as some of it concerns me and I know it's followed by a vote after at some point. Shallow is what I'd call it; no real depth going on and I can't help but wonder if there's some tailored aggression / exaggeration that's playing into what got her a couple townreads prior.

In contrast I do like Hu's posts on page 9. The takes are simple but good throughout. Though vote still on Cuddles.

I think I am locking Aureal as town

If you're going to use Meta to back this up I'd like to know if there's any actual content from Aureal that you are fond of that you can say holds up as town on its own.

Of course after dissing Aureal 228 is solid. (but 229 is not!)

Hydra posts between 197 and 243 are limited to Black voting Hu. Some introspection perhaps?

246 Really? It does not strike me that Klick is in particular "working out the game" via voting / pressuring HPE. supposing HPE as a follower is not a noteworthy deduction. More notable Klick contributions are town reads on Cuddle and possibly T-bone, if anything. Also between posts 239 and 240, I recall your townreads of Aureal / Cuddle being relatively fast in 107. If those were not hardened reads than the ones in 239/240 are and are also imo just as fast as Klick's. That strikes me as a tad hypocritical.

251 is a bit uncharitable. while I'm not fond of 229, it is just one question.

--- Game is going to change its tone again but I need a bit of sleep before continuing this.

I haven't reached any definite conclusions but I think it's a bit obvious who I'm wary of from the above.

[ActionDan]

his read on HPE has investigative depth that could be harder to think of when scum

This continues to be objectively wrong and perhaps selectively wrong. I do not mind the thinner town reads on Drew / Hu tao as presented in 307 and 313 but this is notably not cut from the same organic cloth.

This is basically repeated in 319 and 324 both of which I agree with (mostly Hydra is still likely town).

there's a fair amount that's underwhelming with posts 327 and 329. My posting was minimal but at the very least contains all the ingredients of typical scumhunting. In addition to "positions" which of course could receive pushback and are no where near indemnified from such (see: Aureal), there is a vote and at questions in the pursuit of that vote addressed to HPE. As concerns Klick specifically I am faulted for holding back opinions on what amounts to an accusation that I am HPE's Kira because I instead opted to ask about it. So I am damned if I give "positions" or refrain from them no matter what in Klick's world.

337; Well am I? You said I was setting something up. Which read am I setting up? Usually that means one that's lasting with scant evidence.

345:

They are looking at my play through a lens that recognises some parts of what I am doing and how it's beneficial, or at least how I view it as beneficial. That's why they're saying 'solving' and 'analysis' and you're saying 'what?'.

No shot you think this of Gimli or would you really consider your hypothesis of HPE as a follower as integral to solving and primo analysis. Additionally on another point from the same post: followers openly defending Kira does not have much drawback in a game with no flips.

346 is a perfect encapsulation of every position I don't agree with about Klick and Gimli. I've mentioned as much with 379 that Klick should not have expected any more reaction to his "play" than what I gave - which was obvious skepticism and a question since you know he was holding back his actual opinions. The "Investigative depth" here concerns HPE re: Gimli; I am a separate topic. Though I would strongly argue the investigation Klick opted for is far removed from any depth in my case as well.

347 and 348: The culprit causing friction is this:

I've been townreading Klick for a while now (perhaps for bad reasons, but with his posting I feel I'm more likely to be right for the wrong reasons than just wrong).

You shouldn't be. I still don't understand where this comes from because currently "Klick's 2nd post" is the reason. So I'll say the same I said of Drew, what content is there that you are confident is town on its own merits? Do you not think Rat's 324 is to them a stronger reason to vote Klick over Gimli?

RR's posting over the last few pages 13-15 is obviously town. Not from confidence of his posts, its the content and thought process behind it.

I don't TR Klick due to meta. I TR him due to his play this game. I just feel confident about my ability to find him as town since I've done it before. But it isn't a "meta-read" as much as a "meta-adjusted read".

In this case please pinpoint Klick posts that continue to lead you in this direction?

501 I do like this post.

---

I continue to think HPE has not particularly worked to develop any reads. The only time I saw anything was the on-the-fence supposition about me earlier and claiming that reading Drew's ISO made them think town. On the whole, I think {Klick, Gilmi, HPE} are the scummiest players in this game and am very comfortable voting any of them.

[ActionDan]

Hu's post felt flat and pointless. She says she was going to have a read on T-Bone but decided not to because someone said so.

I am of two minds about this. On the face of it, Hu developing a town read on T-bone and then discounting it because of assessing T-bone has the same capability as scum to produce posts that earn a town read is not sensical. That's giving meta from another game equal weight to content specific to this game. That should never be the case, but if people actually believe they are equal then it is logical. This is consistent with Hu's scum read on you because of vibes or something being off or over-defensiveness. Hu has already defied and come below my expectations of what a normal town player ought to play like from our last game together. It's not a stretch to think it's happening here too.

[ActionDan]

Hey Dragon, feel free to pursue Aureal, but you can't avoid forever coming up with a better reason to have a town read on Klick. It's obvious you're capable. So again, why?

[ActionDan]

Yes it was reunion. This is the only game I've ever played with either one of you.

VOTE: Klick

I give the nudge for Klick being a higher chance to be Kira than Gimli, though I think HPE has the highest chance to be scum. I am concerned our replacements will not have enough time to read up thoroughly

[ActionDan]

Also why can't I just be mimicking that? Or be the same as scum and town?

Do you mean being underwhelming as town? Yes you can be mimicking that, and I think you likely are.

[ActionDan]

You could be scum too. I was of two minds about this your development of your T-bone read, but if I aggregate all your posts outside of this one point, I would tend to think you'd be town more often than scum. There is certainly potential for my read to change as I am not anchored to it nearly as strongly as others.

[ActionDan]

Hey Dragon, feel free to pursue Aureal, but you can't avoid forever coming up with a better reason to have a town read on Klick. It's obvious you're capable. So again, why?

It's almost midnight (AGAIN, because I am absolutely horrible at time management), so I'm gonna give a very quick answer and elaborate more tomorrow evening (which would be like 24 hours to deadline btw):

I liked Klick's entrance. His vote on HPE felt like a genuine mindmeld with me and Gimli and you, all of which I was townreading at the time. His irrelevant comment about hydra dissonance may have sounded awkward to you and Gimli, and rightly so, but I find early awkwardness to be a towntell for Klick.

Also in general I have liked a lot of his thinking, including his TR of T-Bone, his reaction to my gambit scumread on him, his TR of Gimli and his general approach to finding Kira. I feel they are very in line with how I'd expect town!Klick to think, both on a meta level and on a "those are the correct reads a townperson in this game should have" level.

- Dragon

You said he was exposed to you voting him for reactions in another game so I wouldn't put much stock into a reaction test in which he had foresight. I agree that his thinking on you and T-bone and ofc the HPE vote were perfectly reasonable and fine. But not on Gimli and not on me. They are simply not reasonable reads that Klick, being an intelligent mafia player, would have. I've gone over why that is in my previous posts. I don't know if you want a refresher.

---

Considering that deadline is approaching and I do have 4 votes, I feel compelled to claim that I am either Assistant or Detective. If I am not, a theoretical Assistant can CC me.

[ActionDan]

If I have to choose one of the current wagons (which I have), it would be ActionDan.

VOTE: ActionDan

Now you should probably give your reasons as to why you choose this. please show your work.

[ActionDan]

You sheeped the person who's probably a scum follower. T_T

[ActionDan]

We all make mistakes. Some make more.

[ActionDan]

I will be very busy today. I will compromise only on gimli, klick, and HPE. No one else

[ActionDan]

I am consciously counting klick in 4

[ActionDan]

Hey HPE you gonna CC me? No? Kindly go back to simmering as obvscum

[ActionDan]

I'm not discussing crumbs cuddle

[ActionDan]

I want to point out the last people that have the option to cc me are Gimli and Klick. Which would be quite the coincidence

[ActionDan]

I'll have time to ponder tonight. I will for now bestow my grace.

UNVOTE:

[ActionDan]

HPE What should I curb? Is it thinking you gimli and klick are scum? Because if so you have yet to comment or address any part of that. I have been rather specific as to my reasoning and my posting history is very compact so this shouldn't be a heavy lift.

[ActionDan]

It is obfuscating. It does not have much to lose and has no equity in CCing regardless (Klick / Gimli would have had a better shot). I do not care how much emotion is baked into the posts, the thoughts and words it espouses is plenty incriminating. Let's hold it accountable to them.

Your entire case against me is propped up on my lashing at the hydra

It is clearly more nuanced than that cynical response; "lashing out at the Hydra" was not unique to HPE. The complete read is the summation of the middle of 491 and parts of 534. If you look at the bigger picture we have someone that originally stated that they were fine voting a policy elimination until something better comes along and yet is reduced to a mere sheep by close to deadline with little in-between aside from mere platitudes.

This one would expect you to be able to think outside of the box and realize that me/Gimli/Klick are most likely not all aligned together especially considering the circumstances of the scumteam and the fact that both Gimli and Klick wanted to flip me at first. Unless you wanna say we somehow found an understanding and that scum has unionized and is out to get you?

The circumstances of the scumteam and flip-less eliminations make it more likely, not less, that scum would "unionize" as you describe if they can find each other. Gimli and Klick voting you only significantly decreases the likelihood that you are Kira, nothing more. Now you can argue that you being an obvious follower candidate would certainly poison any wagon you join, but I think I was probably the one wagon that would not have dissuaded others from joining close to deadline.

[ActionDan]

Reread game a bit. Still on HPE scum. Gimli probably has a higher chance of being scum than Klick, but may only be follower.

Neither are here and time is kicking.

VOTE: Gimli

[ActionDan]

I'm not fighting this but clearly town has lost. And once again, deserves to.

[ActionDan]

Reasonably confident 3 of these 4 are scum {Aureal, klick, gimli, hpe sorted least likely to most}.

I'll be available to vote all day. I'll check in every so often at work

[ActionDan]

On the issue of no CC's, I'd like to believe HPE tried to work up the guts but couldn't. Otherwise could mean multiple different scenarios.

[ActionDan]

I am here. Am observing

[ActionDan]

You did promise something of substance klick

[ActionDan]

Not approved.

You get Gimli. You get Hu (already annoyed at this) . You don't get will who was T bone who was town

We could flash HPE who is scum

[ActionDan]

Not approved.

You get Gimli. You get Hu (already annoyed at this) . You don't get will who was T bone who was town

We could flash HPE who is scum

[ActionDan]

META IS TRASH

[ActionDan]

Gg wp

[ActionDan]

Gimli be honest you thought Hpe was scum until mid d2 right

[ActionDan]

I messed up a lot on rat, but I maintain that's because he presented the normal thoughts town ought to have (instead of what we got) and read the game.

[ActionDan]

If I was using meta I would have said gilmi was playing like a scumlord

[ActionDan]

I wasn't sure what best play was regarding Crumbs as assistant. Tough decision to crumb or not at all