micro 1096: planned idea [game over]

[Flare Fluff]

Let's go everyone! I'm ready to play.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

this is so sad can we bloat this game to 30 pages before everyone talks at least once

That looks impossible because it's almost bed time.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

oh no i hate reading all of you except like black who is polarized

Oh yeah that's right. You're the person who attempted to meta read me and your meta read was wrong on me from that game lol.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

VOTE: tris this is modconfirmed mafia from my point of view, no lies detected for sure.

how did you find out

It looked like they were trolling when they said that because a role like that does not exist.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Does Koba always talk so much

Yes, they do.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

DkKoba's play is reminding me of the player Not_Mafia with the same avatar who always hammers when a player reaches L-1 without claiming. I read the setup and if I see a pr get hammered without claiming at L-1 then I will assume the player who hammered is scum.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I've played with Shadow before and on his signature it says he is v/la on the weekends and he doesn't post at all on the weekends and he ends up coming back on the weekdays.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

btw my role has potential to be either hilariously useful or uninterestingly useless.

i hope its the former because that would be extremely epic for the type of role i have

it even has the potential to aid scum if the circumstances are right

How funny is it?




and let hope it helps town, not scum!

~H

[Flare Fluff]

i am not_mafia

but that what they all say!



~H

[Flare Fluff]

btw fun fact in completed games i have only randed mafia twice in the past 2 years and that was each a year apart. this game has continued a fortuitous streak of town rands.

i am afraid of being extremely rusty in my next scum rand

so your like that extra rare shiny pokemon!



~H

[Flare Fluff]

I only have 1 player I'm leaning town on and the rest of the players I can't even read.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I mean not that I saw?

Hm ok.

The reason for my vote is that vulpix's posts felt a bit cautious to me, particularly 84 which doesn't feel like a massively natural response for someone who doesn't 'get the joke' on the shadow wagon - I'd expect them to push back on it like black and hpe did. Also, 77 felt off coming from someone who apparently knows Koba.

Can you explain what do you mean by cautious?

I don't understand on what you're saying on this post when you talked about me not getting the jokes on them. At first the votes did look like rvs and once when I saw Shadow being discussed some more about not showing up, it didn't look like a joke to me and I started wondering maybe the players have never played with Shadow and I wanted to clear this up through my experience with Shadow.

Can you also elaborate on what what do you find that's off about 77

- A

[Flare Fluff]

It's possible albeit improbable that scum split themselves up, with one being on Shadow while that was hot and another going onto Ausuka. More likely however is one in six is scum and the outlier is in Flare Fluff or the Rogues.

It looks like you are basing your reads on wagon analysis which is not helpful for reads and it's better to look at the content of the posts. Are you town reading Shadow and Ausuka since you said you suspected there could have been scum on their wagon?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I just noticed HPE ninja'd me and I missed the post where it said it put Ausuka as town.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

It's possible albeit improbable that scum split themselves up, with one being on Shadow while that was hot and another going onto Ausuka. More likely however is one in six is scum and the outlier is in Flare Fluff or the Rogues.

It looks like you are basing your reads on wagon analysis which is not helpful for reads and it's better to look at the content of the posts. Are you town reading Shadow and Ausuka since you said you suspected there could have been scum on their wagon?

- A

Shadow is locktown for me rn because scum would absolutely not bus their partner before they even show up to the game lmao.

How is Shadow locktown when me, 2 Rogues, DkKoba, and Black have not voted Shadow?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

It's possible albeit improbable that scum split themselves up, with one being on Shadow while that was hot and another going onto Ausuka. More likely however is one in six is scum and the outlier is in Flare Fluff or the Rogues.

It looks like you are basing your reads on wagon analysis which is not helpful for reads and it's better to look at the content of the posts. Are you town reading Shadow and Ausuka since you said you suspected there could have been scum on their wagon?

- A

Shadow is locktown for me rn because scum would absolutely not bus their partner before they even show up to the game lmao.

How is Shadow locktown when me, 2 Rogues, DkKoba, and Black have not voted Shadow?

- A

This one is townreading Black, Koba said they'd hammer Shadow, and if both scum are in the hydrae this one will be forced to scream.

I'm trying to look through your pov and if I was in your pov figuring out Shadow's alignment and if he is scum, I would be guessing the only options who he could be scum with are the other 2 hydra slots.

How are you clearing the 2 hydra slots on not being paired with Shadow?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I mean not that I saw?

Hm ok.

The reason for my vote is that vulpix's posts felt a bit cautious to me, particularly 84 which doesn't feel like a massively natural response for someone who doesn't 'get the joke' on the shadow wagon - I'd expect them to push back on it like black and hpe did. Also, 77 felt off coming from someone who apparently knows Koba.

Can you explain what do you mean by cautious?

I don't understand on what you're saying on this post when you talked about me not getting the jokes on them. At first the votes did look like rvs and once when I saw Shadow being discussed some more about not showing up, it didn't look like a joke to me and I started wondering maybe the players have never played with Shadow and I wanted to clear this up through my experience with Shadow.

Can you also elaborate on what what do you find that's off about 77

- A

By cautious, I mean it feels deliberate and like you are holding back in some way?

Re: the second paragraph, I think if you thought we were being serious your reaction would have more "what the fuck" alongside it, similar to black and HPE.

I think 77 may come from an unnatural thought process because I don't believe the thought "Koba plays like Not_Mafia" is organic coming from someone who has played with Koba before. It feels constructed, like you thought "I should make a post about how I'm very concerned about eliminating people in RVS" and worked backwards from there, which I think scum are more likely to do.

Deliberate means purpose and so you think I made that post just to show off?

On the second paragraph to your post you thought a natural response would have been "what the fuck" about the wagon on Shadow about players not knowing he is vla on weekends? Saying a reaction like "what the fuck" looks like a weird response for clearing up why a player is absent in my opinion.

I disagree on the third paragraph. Players will change their playstyles out of the blue and seeing that DkKoba changed their avatar I was worried they changed their playstyle to a troll who would instantly hammer at L-1 without waiting for the player to claim. I know a player who changed his playstyle just to troll and for not wanting to take playing mafia seriously anymore.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Do you think scum was pushing the shadow wagon?

not sure, first time play on this site beside my friend. how does shadow play as town or scum?

~H

Hm ok.


The reason for my vote is that vulpix's posts felt a bit cautious to me, particularly 84 which doesn't feel like a massively natural response for someone who doesn't 'get the joke' on the shadow wagon - I'd expect them to push back on it like black and hpe did. Also, 77 felt off coming from someone who apparently knows Koba.

you mean the A? she is just explaining her pov.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

VOTE: dkkoba what if

was town reading him,



but could be playing 3d chess about claiming his role might help mafia, why hint that to scum!?


~H

[Flare Fluff]

anyway if you'll excuse me its time to do a bunch of situps and go out into the freezing snowing tundra

I hate the cold...



~H

[Flare Fluff]

maybe we are all shaddow's partner

[Flare Fluff]

maybe we are all shaddow's partner

my post above, btw is there who replied feature?

~H

[Flare Fluff]

The hydra slots could absolutely be scum, this one said you're the outliers of the pool that it said has exactly one scum in it, after all. This one doesn't understand what you mean by "I would be guessing the only options who he could be scum with are the other 2 hydra slots." though. Actually not sure what you're doing in general, you're hypothesizing scum!Shadow which this one believes to be extremely unlikely. Assuming that scum NEVER vote for their partner in RVS here, scum!Shadow could be aligned with me, Black, Koba (big maybe), you or the Rogues

possible, but i know me and A, slot is just full cuteness/fluff that is 100% town. so not us!




as for shadow, I am seeing them say they will be back on Tuesday.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

VOTE: Ausuka

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I'm leaning scum on Ausuka. It looks like she is not trying to understand my pov. I'm used to town trying to understand my pov and she is not doing it and it looked like she twisted my post.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

The 1 vs 1 between Roden and HPE was confusing for me to read and those are slots I am having a hard time reading.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Deliberate means purpose and so you think I made that post just to show off?

On the second paragraph to your post you thought a natural response would have been "what the fuck" about the wagon on Shadow about players not knowing he is vla on weekends? Saying a reaction like "what the fuck" looks like a weird response for clearing up why a player is absent in my opinion.

I disagree on the third paragraph. Players will change their playstyles out of the blue and seeing that DkKoba changed their avatar I was worried they changed their playstyle to a troll who would instantly hammer at L-1 without waiting for the player to claim. I know a player who changed his playstyle just to troll and for not wanting to take playing mafia seriously anymore.

- A

Where are you getting showing off from? Purpose means doing stuff for a reason. I think most of what scum does is just vibes and difficult (but not impossible) to catch, but some of the stuff they do is purposefully meant to advance their wincon and that's easier to aim for.

I didn't mean literally "what the fuck" but at least a little bit of bafflement, which again I think other players in this game did show so I don't think it would be particularly weird.

The third does make sense to me.

You said it felt I deliberately made that post which I interpretted the word deliberately as purpose. I fail to understand why you think town wouldn't do stuff.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Would you like to join me on Shaddow in the mean time at least?

That's a weird question to ask right after your interaction with HPE. Do you have any thoughts of its alignment?

@Roden

I don't think it's town. It's claiming to be wary of quick hammers and flash wagons, but it didn't want to vote Shaddow even after the momentum there lulled. Withdrawing it's vote from Ausuka's wagon as well when it gained momentum makes me think it either only cares about appearances in case of a town flip, or is wary protecting a partner from an early elim. Either way, I don't see the town motivation for it.

I'm reading this post again and from my understanding on what HPE said, it didn't want there to be a quick hammer and flash wagon and it unvoted for a reason. It does make a little bit of sense why it didn't vote Shadow with Roden. Roden suspecting HPE for that I don't see how is it scum indicative.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I'm used to town trying to understand my pov and she is not doing it and it looked like she twisted my post.

I fail to understand why you think town wouldn't do stuff.

- A

I said your posts feel cautious, in the sense they came across as very deliberate. Town are more likely to post fluidly and say what comes to mind. A lot of scum players are more strategic in what they say and can often overthink things. I explained why I thought your posts fit this mold, but there is also an element of tone which is difficult to explain. I looked at other games from you, as I believe I mentioned, and didn't really get the same vibes so I thought it might be alignment indicative.

I find it baffling that I say that I agree with one of your points after thinking it over and immediately after you come in making the argument that I am not trying to understand your pov at all.

When you said you agreed with my points, it looked odd to me that you put me as possible scum on your readslist. Don't even bother on trying to meta read me. I have had over 20 players attempt to meta read me and they have all failed on reading me correctly except for 1 player who is retired.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I didn't really meta you. I checked to see if something I thought was scummy was also true of their town games, which I do all the time and will continue to do.

I said I agreed with one point. I still think you are scummy overall. Also, I don't really think "you are not trying to understand my pov" really meshes as an argument with "you agreed with me but still said i am possible scum"

Can you answer me this question.

Your suspicion on me is for looking cautious on 84 and explain to me how is clearing up for players on why Shadow isn't posting is cautious to you? I am struggling to understand you.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I don't like how Ausuka just now avoided my question and instead she answers me with something else and it looks like she misrepped me.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I always scum read replacements and once when Margot is done with her catchup and reads list I'm probably going to scum read her too.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Ok, initial thoughts are that the solve is in Black or HPE (one of the two, not both), TL1R and Shadow.

Ausuka is easy Town Lock and Koba's play seems too natural to me. It's been a while, and I'm rusty as hell with a bad streak thus far in the return, so take it all with a grain of salt, and I'll do another reread later today

About your initial thought, why did you think a solve is in Black or HPE? By Ausuka being a town lock, are you saying you normally find it easy to town lock Ausuka or are you town locking Ausuka in this game?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I always scum read replacements and once when Margot is done with her catchup and reads list I'm probably going to scum read her too.

- A

I don't like how preemptive this feels. Why do you always scumread replacements?

It's the way how they give out their reads afterwards when they are done catching up and I scum read replacements who don't bother on catching up which looks like they are not trying to figure out the game.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I always scum read replacements and once when Margot is done with her catchup and reads list I'm probably going to scum read her too.

- A

I don't like how preemptive this feels. Why do you always scumread replacements?

It's the way how they give out their reads afterwards when they are done catching up and I scum read replacements who don't bother on catching up which looks like they are not trying to figure out the game.

- A

But surely you've seen town replacements that have done both things before. It happens quite often. So it doesn't really make sense for you to automatically scumread replacements

I never said automatically. I said always and these definitions are not the same thing.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

VOTE: Flare Fluff

It feels like they are positioning themselves to hop on the Roden/Margot wagon

Plus I kinda wanna let Margot cook

That's not positioning on what I did. It was talking about my experience about replacements and I recently had an experience with a replacement I had from a completed game I felt bad about myself.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

VOTE: Flare Fluff

It feels like they are positioning themselves to hop on the Roden/Margot wagon

Plus I kinda wanna let Margot cook

you and ausuka have been on A about off, and now your narrating she positioning herself when she was previous explaining her reasons. lol if i didn't know better maybe you to are itching to get town out.


how many games have you played with A?

~H

[Flare Fluff]

But surely you've seen town replacements that have done both things before. It happens quite often. So it doesn't really make sense for you to automatically scumread replacements

this is normal thing, imo. and seen people not liking scum roles only to sub out. it basically 50/50 but seen it more on other forums.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

Yay! Harle is back.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

It feels like they are positioning themselves to hop on the Roden/Margot wagon

VOTE: Ausuka

- A

that some roden wagon...



but agree with A about ausuka

~H

[Flare Fluff]

Yay! Harle is back.

- A

hi A, sorry was eating and was out earlier. lol




and I see some new activity has happen while was gone.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

Yay! Harle is back.

- A

hi A, sorry was eating and was out earlier. lol




and I see some new activity has happen while was gone.



~H

- A

[Flare Fluff]

awww i missed the The spicy cat fight between highprincesserinys and roden.


kinda feeling town vs town, with irritation.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

- A

^^




~H

[Flare Fluff]

Reading back I have noticed Roden and black flip flopping with votes

though not sure how it done on this forum, but usually town keep switching vote where i played. though could be scum, if scum confident here.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

VOTE: Flare Fluff

It feels like they are positioning themselves to hop on the Roden/Margot wagon

Plus I kinda wanna let Margot cook

you and ausuka have been on A about off, and now your narrating she positioning herself when she was previous explaining her reasons. lol if i didn't know better maybe you to are itching to get town out.


how many games have you played with A?

~H

It was just Ausuka who was going on about me being off. Black didn't really say much about me and instead either she read my post wrong or she is doing it on purpose pretending to play clueless. I've never played with Black before.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

It feels like they are positioning themselves to hop on the Roden/Margot wagon

VOTE: Ausuka

- A

that some roden wagon...



but agree with A about ausuka

~H

VOTE: Ausuka

VOTE: HPE

I think HPE's reactions and responses to his wagon feel fine. There's a sense of entitlement in his read regarding the e-2 stuff and it makes me think he actually believes what he's saying

VOTE: Roden

His vote and subsequent conversation with HPE felt more opportunistic than the Rogue's

VOTE: Flare Fluff

It feels like they are positioning themselves to hop on the Roden/Margot wagon

Plus I kinda wanna let Margot cook

ok lmao with black! seriously!

you have been voting on off, on wagons Xd while accusing A, of doing this! A chan, on the other hand is voting someone she suspects.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

It was just Ausuka who was going on about me being off. Black didn't really say much about me and instead either she read my post wrong or she is doing it on purpose pretending to play clueless. I've never played with Black before.

- A

me either and everyone here beside you lol


~H

[Flare Fluff]

Black,Ausuka,Roden i am leaning sus pile

Tris,Koba, lean town so far.





~H

[Flare Fluff]

I'm not liking how HPE is piggy backing off of Black.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I'm not liking how HPE is piggy backing off of Black.

- A

We have a synergy going, so what.

And what is it?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I'm not liking how HPE is piggy backing off of Black.

- A

We have a synergy going, so what.

And what is it?

- A

...A synergy?

What is your synergy with Black? What are you agreeing on and why?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I'm not liking how HPE is piggy backing off of Black.

- A

We have a synergy going, so what.

And what is it?

- A

...A synergy?

What is your synergy with Black? What are you agreeing on and why?

- A

Aren't you the one who just said this one is piggybacking off of Black? You tell me, friend.

I didn't like how you piggy backed Black into your suspicion on my slot and the suspicion on my slot was weak. You're not even trying to engage with me to figure out my alignment and I'm asking what other stuff are you agreeing with Black on beside on my slot.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I didn't like how you piggy backed Black into your suspicion on my slot and the suspicion on my slot was weak. You're not even trying to engage with me to figure out my alignment and I'm asking what other stuff are you agreeing with Black on beside on my slot.

Black or no, 323 and 344 are stinky posts. Also, 291 is an assessment it agrees with in a town!Roden world, and Black helped me get onto the path of actually trying to solve by asking 142. Black's like my buddy of sorts, for the moment.

Do you have your own takes besides wagons? You have been agreeing with Black and talking about wagons. Talking about wagons is not helpful when there has been no scum flip. Elaborate on what is stinky about 323 and 344

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I didn't like how you piggy backed Black into your suspicion on my slot and the suspicion on my slot was weak. You're not even trying to engage with me to figure out my alignment and I'm asking what other stuff are you agreeing with Black on beside on my slot.

Black or no, 323 and 344 are stinky posts. Also, 291 is an assessment it agrees with in a town!Roden world, and Black helped me get onto the path of actually trying to solve by asking 142. Black's like my buddy of sorts, for the moment.

Do you have your own takes besides wagons? You have been agreeing with Black and talking about wagons. Talking about wagons is not helpful when there has been no scum flip. Elaborate on what is stinky about 323 and 344

- A

Did your eyes just glaze over during me and Roden's argument over very non-wagon things? Did you just not see 349, which by the way don't forget the amounts of time between vote changes, and that we're still pretty damn early in the game and reads are typically fickle anyhow? This one doesn't care to do busywork for you.

I have read your argument with Roden and I was confused to the point where nothing on there looked like takes to me and it just looked like you were attacking each other. 349 doesn't look like a take and it looks like shading.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

There is yet to be a good argument made against me.

The problem with you is your town lock on Shadow still doesn't make sense to me. You town lock Shadow because the players voting him at rvs can't be scum with him and the players who didn't vote Shadow can't be scum with him because you town read 2 of the players who didn't vote him and the other 2 players who didn't vote Shadow you are not town reading which are the 2 hydras and you didn't explain on why Shadow can't be paired with the 2 hydras.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

It has gotten me wondering if you have been fabricating reads because of this.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

includes ausuka rvs vote and also doesnt mention the fact that she includes pretty decent reasons for changing votes

ah yes feelings....



~H

[Flare Fluff]

Did your eyes just glaze over during me and Roden's argument over very non-wagon things? Did you just not see 349, which by the way don't forget the amounts of time between vote changes, and that we're still pretty damn early in the game and reads are typically fickle anyhow? This one doesn't care to do busywork for you.

if her eyes glaze over, then it seems your truly a boring person... sad

[Flare Fluff]

Did your eyes just glaze over during me and Roden's argument over very non-wagon things? Did you just not see 349, which by the way don't forget the amounts of time between vote changes, and that we're still pretty damn early in the game and reads are typically fickle anyhow? This one doesn't care to do busywork for you.

if her eyes glaze over, then it seems your truly a boring person... sad

~H

[Flare Fluff]

There is yet to be a good argument made against me.

The only thing against you, is you come off to aggressive/defensive in your tone from what read.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

If you feel the need to say this then this one'll interact just with a slot that operates in good faith instead.

Good faith!? You of all people should not be preaching about good, after you insulted people, even made roden quit with your good faith attitude.. and calling my friend incapable of reading with the glaze over attitude response.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

I didn't like how you piggy backed Black into your suspicion on my slot and the suspicion on my slot was weak. You're not even trying to engage with me to figure out my alignment and I'm asking what other stuff are you agreeing with Black on beside on my slot.

Black or no, 323 and 344 are stinky posts. Also, 291 is an assessment it agrees with in a town!Roden world, and Black helped me get onto the path of actually trying to solve by asking 142. Black's like my buddy of sorts, for the moment.

Do you have your own takes besides wagons? You have been agreeing with Black and talking about wagons. Talking about wagons is not helpful when there has been no scum flip. Elaborate on what is stinky about 323 and 344

- A

Did your eyes just glaze over during me and Roden's argument over very non-wagon things? Did you just not see 349, which by the way don't forget the amounts of time between vote changes, and that we're still pretty damn early in the game and reads are typically fickle anyhow? This one doesn't care to do busywork for you.

I have read your argument with Roden and I was confused to the point where nothing on there looked like takes to me and it just looked like you were attacking each other. 349 doesn't look like a take and it looks like shading.

- A

If you really can't understand why exactly this one disliked Roden's posts then we don't really have anything to talk about regarding them.

You should care on why players don't understand stuff. What you're doing is you're not making it easy for players to get a read on you and you're not making it easy for players to find a town HPE if it is town. You will just be a slot where players don't mind on you getting eliminated.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Is piggybacking somebody inherently scummy?

- Theran

If the player is just going to piggyback without giving their own takes then yes it does look scummy. I don't recall seeing HPE give a single take that is not about wagons. It said it gave takes when it was arguing with Roden. I have read this interaction 3 times and it just looks like they are attacking each other. An interaction like that they had was not helpful for me on getting a read out of that.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

ok lmao with black! seriously!

you have been voting on off, on wagons Xd while accusing A, of doing this! A chan, on the other hand is voting someone she suspects.

Huh? I accused A of positioning herself to join the leading wagon. I don't think there is a correlation between what I've done this game and what A is doing with her Margot read

I never gave a read on Margot. I don't like how you made this up.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

There is yet to be a good argument made against me.

The problem with you is your town lock on Shadow still doesn't make sense to me. You town lock Shadow because the players voting him at rvs can't be scum with him and the players who didn't vote Shadow can't be scum with him because you town read 2 of the players who didn't vote him and the other 2 players who didn't vote Shadow you are not town reading which are the 2 hydras and you didn't explain on why Shadow can't be paired with the 2 hydras.

- A

It has gotten me wondering if you have been fabricating reads because of this.

- A

Why do you seem to have an issue with HPE townlocking Shaddow but you don't seem concerned that Margot is townlocking Ausuka? Especially considering you are suspicious of both Margot and Ausuka. I feel like town!you would have asked Margot about her read there

Margot literally said in the thread she will talk about her read on Ausuka and I wanted to wait and see what she says. If I disagree on the read and it's not convincing for me then I will talk about it with her.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I'm not here to put too much pressure on a replacement like that so fast and I wanted to give her time to catch up.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

On a very brief skim of thread, I think FF's 1v1 with Black feels very towny for FF and probably also towny for Black.

Might tryhard later, but that's all for today.

@Black, Flare Fluff - What do you think about the two leading wagons?

- Corinne

Which wagons? It says Margot, me, and Ausuka are leading the votes by 2.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I always scum read replacements and once when Margot is done with her catchup and reads list I'm probably going to scum read her too.

- A

This is what I'm referring to re: your Margot read. You don't have one yet but you are setting yourself up to scumread her, which I read as opportunistic

I would like H to explain why she thinks what we are doing is similar

Who are you talking about in the last sentence? Do you mean you and Roden? Yesterday in the hydra chat Harle said she doesn't know how do scum play in this forum and she thinks scum in this forum will switch votes and she noticed both you and Roden were switching votes.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Which wagons? It says Margot, me, and Ausuka are leading the votes by 2.

I meant Ausuka and Margot, didn't notice you were also at 2.

The votes on Ausuka and Margot I am fine with the votes on them. I have been leaning scum Ausuka and Margot I am null on. A wagon on a null read hopefully it should be able to help me get a better read on them and a wagon on a scum lean it makes me wonder if I am right on the read and if I am wrong I might be able to figure out that I am wrong on my read just by seeing what else does the scum lean would say and if they start to make towny posts or not.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I don't understand what point she was trying to make here

From the way how I interpreted it, it looks like she is saying I am being consistent on my scum lean while you haven't been consistent on your scum leans. Harle will have to clear this up just to make sure if I am right or if I misunderstood her.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

haven't caught up, but what i've seen of ausuka has been in line with what i know of town ausuka. i am unfamiliar with scum ausuka though

Can you talk about it more on what is in line of town Ausuka. You said you are unfamiliar with scum Ausuka and it would be alot more helpful if you also know what is in line of a scum Ausuka.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I don't understand what point she was trying to make here

From the way how I interpreted it, it looks like she is saying I am being consistent on my scum lean while you haven't been consistent on your scum leans. Harle will have to clear this up just to make sure if I am right or if I misunderstood her.

- A

your votes look artificial and your reasons, like you can't decide, where A, was suspecting Ausuka reason for voting her.




~H

[Flare Fluff]

Who are you talking about in the last sentence?

You and me

H said this:

ok lmao with black! seriously!

you have been voting on off, on wagons Xd while accusing A, of doing this!

A chan, on the other hand is voting someone she suspects.

I don't understand what point she was trying to make here

H also said this:

Reading back I have noticed Roden and black flip flopping with votes

though not sure how it done on this forum, but usually town keep switching vote where i played. though could be scum, if scum confident here.

~H

So I find it weird that she would assume scum switch votes a lot here when town switch votes a lot where she comes from. Why would she think this forum operates any differently? And you can let H answer this, I don't expect you to read her mind

It's not scummy to switch votes around. I do it all the time

scum have flipped flop votes i've seen past game, so not only town. nothing weird

i'm new here, so not familiar with every player here beside A, to know which player behaves as scum or town etc



~H

[Flare Fluff]

So I find it weird that she would assume scum switch votes a lot here when town switch votes a lot where she comes from. Why would she think this forum operates any differently? And you can let H answer this, I don't expect you to read her mind

It's not scummy to switch votes around. I do it all the time

scum have flipped flop votes i've seen past game, so not only town. nothing weird

i'm new here, so not familiar with every player here beside A, to know which player behaves as scum or town etc



~H

this was meant response to Black

quoted at a instead lol

~H

[Flare Fluff]

if you think people like tris or me were sincerely pushing Shadow for not posting that early into day 1 and koba was sincerely threatening to hammer, that would be remarkably bad play on our part and worthy of further comment. HPE and Black, who both thought we were being serious, made comments to this effect and pushed back against our push, which makes sense because in that hypothetical world our push would, again, be really terrible. I view the lack of calling us out (and potentially getting into conflict) as a cautious play. I think most players would argue against it as either alignment, but I think not doing it is somewhat more likely to come from scum because some scum players do overthink things and are cautious.

There is also an element of tone in me reading your early game as cautious, which I am obviously not going to be able to explain in great depth.

I still think your response to me is contradictory, and that's probably slightly scum indicative, but it's also something town do fairly often.

Do you have reads on players other than me?

well Me and A are not scum, so this whole cautious push feels like push narrative, and it was mention early. where usually people just fluff early day 1 and so placing votes and on and off.

you on the other hand are past the fluff stage with that vote on A. could be town tunnel. but every time i see someone early read someone as scum in early phase, instead day later i lean more scum. since town look for other town/not wanting to accident lynch in small/few numbers in these type of setup.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

town leans

koba -lean town from there post and fluff early game
tris lean town, from there post and fluff early game
margotrosa- lean town, redon vs HPE look like tvt, redon got frustrated bye HPE and left.
HighPrincessErinys the attitude looks like scum town with aggressive attitude. Scum would likely avoid this type of play, so lean town. but very scum town attitude.


scum leans

Ausuka -early day 1 vote, reason cautious, later feels off. there not much scum haunting beside label others as Maybe reads, with out further reason.
Shadow -not much around because busy
Two Level 1 Rogues
(hydra of DragonEater70 & Thomith) tbh this could be scum, with low activity. but more on null/scum



~H

[Flare Fluff]

town leans

koba -lean town from there post and fluff early game
tris lean town, from there post and fluff early game
margotrosa- lean town, redon vs HPE look like tvt, redon got frustrated bye HPE and left.
HighPrincessErinys the attitude looks like scum town with aggressive attitude. Scum would likely avoid this type of play, so lean town. but very scum town attitude.


scum leans

Ausuka -early day 1 vote, reason cautious, later feels off. there not much scum haunting beside label others as Maybe reads, with out further reason.
Shadow -not much around because busy
Two Level 1 Rogues
(hydra of DragonEater70 & Thomith) tbh this could be scum, with low activity. but more on null/scum



~H

I will place Black on scum/null list, for reasons mention earlier. could be town, but eh, need to see more

~H

[Flare Fluff]

And where do I fit in?

(Also please don't use the "L" word. We say lim or fade or something similar here )

Pedit: oh ok

ah sorry, meant vote off

other forum i play at use the l word more

~H

[Flare Fluff]

The wagon on us looks like it is scum motivated. I always get wagoned on this forum and we are an easy push for scum for having such a different playstyle that clashes with the playstyles on this forum

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Is Fluff posting more townie than posting content less frequently/"inactivity"?

- Theran

oh you think both town/scum can't be inactive, it only town?

~H

[Flare Fluff]

This reads list seems very shallow, with most of them being based on activity. Specifically regarding koba and tris, what about their "fluff" makes them towny?

i mention activity, because i don't understand players here much on forum, also are you also saying only town can be inactive? and not scum, imo this is bad as seen scum win in past as inactive/low key not to draw attention on themselves.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

I pushed it into viable range so I guess I'm being telepathically controlled by scum ):

or you just scum, pretending to be town.

[Flare Fluff]

I pushed it into viable range so I guess I'm being telepathically controlled by scum ):

or you just scum, pretending to be town.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

shadows and koba reaction to low post=scum is interesting to note

shadows came expecting me to know everyone on this forum, as new player, enough to call it shallow, while i don't see him even trying much.

so yeah this slot looks bad imo after reading that response.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

so people here think low activity instant =100% town read


by the claim it shallow, while coming off as really bias. so basically by this bias logic, anyone low activity is confirmed town..


alright






~H

[Flare Fluff]

koba -lean town from there post and fluff early game
tris lean town, from there post and fluff early game
margotrosa- lean town, redon vs HPE look like tvt, redon got frustrated bye HPE and left.
HighPrincessErinys the attitude looks like scum town with aggressive attitude. Scum would likely avoid this type of play, so lean town. but very scum town attitude.

Update Two Level 1 Rogues to town, reads after iso.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

I was asking you a question on your opinion? You stated in your reads that you scumread less active players but town read fluff posters, I was questioning you based off of that, to try and understand your reasoning better.

- Theran.

Town are likely to fluff more over scum in start in early day phase and tris sounded town beside fluff, also it almost near end phase with low posters, what i meant. i have dealt with low posters who where scum also and it not day 1 anymore when i gave that point out. scum who play low activity is also strategy to not get noticed, to be less likely voted out.

shadows calling it shallow is really bias thinking.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

I was asking you a question on your opinion? You stated in your reads that you scumread less active players but town read fluff posters, I was questioning you based off of that, to try and understand your reasoning better.

- Theran.

Town are likely to fluff more over scum in start in early day phase and tris sounded town beside fluff, also it almost near end phase with low posters, what i meant. i have dealt with low posters who where scum also and it not day 1 anymore when i gave that point out. scum who play low activity is also strategy to not get noticed, to be less likely voted out.

shadows calling it shallow is really bias thinking.

~H

correction meant it past start day, and phase is almost near end

~H

[Flare Fluff]

What if it's just the two hydras

me and a are town. why do you think it two hydra?

~H

[Flare Fluff]

I feel like you keep saying stuff like just asserting that you're town/just explaining or whatever when people express suspicion of you. I don't get the point. Obviously you know we're not just going to take your word for it? I could just as easily say "oh, i'm town, so you're just making a push narrative."

I look for other town. I don't see that in you. Since the early game, both of you have made a lot of posts taking what I say totally out of context to push me in retaliation, and I think you're consistently using that as a tactic to make yourself difficult to read. If you were a single slot, it would be a lot easier to chalk it up to playstyle but I find it strange that you both have the exact same attitude. Like, even after I made this post, shaddowez comments that your reads list seems shallow for this point because you have a lot of reads which say they are simply activity based, you turn that into "are you also saying only town can be inactive?" which is just ... super obviously not the point here. Similarly, when I pushed your slot, you said "I fail to understand why you think town wouldn't do stuff." which was also super obviously not the point, and other stuff like accusing me of avoiding the question when I definitely answered it. When Black pushes you, she's "either she read my post wrong or she is doing it on purpose pretending to play clueless." It's just consistently strawmanning anyone who pushes you to an absurd degree. It's difficult to read, but again given the consistency of this kind of approach from both members of the hydra I'm inclined to think it might be intentional. I don't think being defensive is inherently scummy, but I get very bad vibes from the way you're doing it. Like, it's not impossible that both of you just happen to behave like this but it feels less likely than it being at least partially strategic on your part.

I'm also just not a fan of 406 especially viewed in the context of your posts constantly asserting that you're just town or just asserting things. It feels performative and overexplainy, like in order to get people to townread you you're trying to super visibly go through the motions of a town thought process.

we have been direct and given our opinion, not out contaxt as you put it, you do not like getting suspected your saying, after you gave poor reason about feelings on our slot. also i see you did not read my reply on the topic of inactive, instead come to shade more. ok noted


ah yes, not allowed to give basic read after some days past on players, or it =shallow, focusing/piggy back of bias reason, as i explained earlier which you ignored, to just come i can't understand you, and your shallow..


~H

[Flare Fluff]

I don't really think this anymore. I have another pet theory

just because i say town, does not mean you take it to face value 100% that depends on the player, but i already see people twisting it excuse to further shade.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

this is just the same stuff again

ok i see you don't care to read before and reason,just auto jump yeah this player scummy lol


~H

[Flare Fluff]

Like my point wasn't even *about* the activity stuff

, it was about how you completely misrepresented what Shadow was saying and have had a consistent pattern of doing that to anyone who suspects you throughout the game and I think it's a tactic

Your response just doesn't address anything

I'm not even sure if this can genuinely be faked because it's so ?????

I feel like you keep saying stuff like just asserting that you're town/just explaining or whatever when people express suspicion of you. I don't get the point. Obviously you know we're not just going to take your word for it? I could just as easily say "oh, i'm town, so you're just making a push narrative."

I look for other town. I don't see that in you. Since the early game, both of you have made a lot of posts taking what I say totally out of context to push me in retaliation, and I think you're consistently using that as a tactic to make yourself difficult to read. If you were a single slot, it would be a lot easier to chalk it up to playstyle but I find it strange that you both have the exact same attitude. Like, even after I made this post,

shaddowez comments that your reads list seems shallow for this point because you have a lot of reads which say they are simply activity based, you turn that into "are you also saying only town can be inactive?" which is just ... super obviously not the point here.

Similarly, when I pushed your slot,

you said "I fail to understand why you think town wouldn't do stuff." which was also super obviously not the point,

and other stuff like accusing me of avoiding the question when I definitely answered it. When Black pushes you, she's "either she read my post wrong or she is doing it on purpose pretending to play clueless." It's just consistently strawmanning anyone who pushes you to an absurd degree. It's difficult to read, but again given the consistency of this kind of approach from both members of the hydra I'm inclined to think it might be intentional. I don't think being defensive is inherently scummy, but I get very bad vibes from the way you're doing it. Like, it's not impossible that both of you just happen to behave like this but it feels less likely than it being at least partially strategic on your part.

I'm also just not a fan of 406 especially viewed in the context of your posts constantly asserting that you're just town or just asserting things.

It feels performative and overexplainy, like in order to get people to townread you you're trying to super visibly go through the motions of a town thought process.

you brought up the shallow mention about activity, yet deny this, i already gave my point earlier not my problem you can't read.



Hey A Xd where did i say i fail to understand


~H

[Flare Fluff]

I'm confused by what you are trying to say here

I think it best you reply to A then, since you like to parrot others who seem confused train.




~H

[Flare Fluff]

Can you just explain what you meant in 480 and stop taking little shots at me

how can you not understand someone saying town, does not mean 100% yes i do it more out habit, if bothered by it. it your choice like other reading to decide if town, or like the other use that as excuse to say that scummy. either way i am see people use this as easy excuse to say scum would play like this. but meh

it either 50/50

i already explained it early, do you get it!?


~H

[Flare Fluff]

Look I'm not trying to be rude (even though you clearly are for some reason?) but your English is not very good, so sometimes when you say things I don't really know what you are trying to say. Even now I still don't know what point you are trying to make, but just forget it. You clearly seem to be irritated that I'm confused so I don't even really want to bother anymore
I scumread Alianna.

this response was really rude, while calling me rude and insulting me.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

if you think people like tris or me were sincerely pushing Shadow for not posting that early into day 1 and koba was sincerely threatening to hammer, that would be remarkably bad play on our part and worthy of further comment. HPE and Black, who both thought we were being serious, made comments to this effect and pushed back against our push, which makes sense because in that hypothetical world our push would, again, be really terrible. I view the lack of calling us out (and potentially getting into conflict) as a cautious play. I think most players would argue against it as either alignment, but I think not doing it is somewhat more likely to come from scum because some scum players do overthink things and are cautious.

There is also an element of tone in me reading your early game as cautious, which I am obviously not going to be able to explain in great depth.

I still think your response to me is contradictory, and that's probably slightly scum indicative, but it's also something town do fairly often.

Do you have reads on players other than me?

well Me and A are not scum, so this whole cautious push feels like push narrative, and it was mention early. where usually people just fluff early day 1 and so placing votes and on and off.

you on the other hand are past the fluff stage with that vote on A. could be town tunnel. but every time i see someone early read someone as scum in early phase, instead day later i lean more scum. since town look for other town/not wanting to accident lynch in small/few numbers in these type of setup.


~H

I feel like you keep saying stuff like just asserting that you're town/just explaining or whatever when people express suspicion of you. I don't get the point. Obviously you know we're not just going to take your word for it? I could just as easily say "oh, i'm town, so you're just making a push narrative."

I look for other town. I don't see that in you. Since the early game, both of you have made a lot of posts taking what I say totally out of context to push me in retaliation, and I think you're consistently using that as a tactic to make yourself difficult to read. If you were a single slot, it would be a lot easier to chalk it up to playstyle but I find it strange that you both have the exact same attitude. Like, even after I made this post, shaddowez comments that your reads list seems shallow for this point because you have a lot of reads which say they are simply activity based, you turn that into "are you also saying only town can be inactive?" which is just ... super obviously not the point here. Similarly, when I pushed your slot, you said "I fail to understand why you think town wouldn't do stuff." which was also super obviously not the point, and other stuff like accusing me of avoiding the question when I definitely answered it. When Black pushes you, she's "either she read my post wrong or she is doing it on purpose pretending to play clueless." It's just consistently strawmanning anyone who pushes you to an absurd degree. It's difficult to read, but again given the consistency of this kind of approach from both members of the hydra I'm inclined to think it might be intentional. I don't think being defensive is inherently scummy, but I get very bad vibes from the way you're doing it. Like, it's not impossible that both of you just happen to behave like this but it feels less likely than it being at least partially strategic on your part.

I'm also just not a fan of 406 especially viewed in the context of your posts constantly asserting that you're just town or just asserting things. It feels performative and overexplainy, like in order to get people to townread you you're trying to super visibly go through the motions of a town thought process.

This post pings me and it looks like you are discrediting me. You complained that me and harle have the same attitude calling it out that we are intentionally doing it while knowing nothing about our playstyles and the history we have had together playing together. I feel like a town ausuka would be questioning us about our play history together.

I think I will never be able to town read ausuka because I have found 2 completed scum games of ausuka and her scum games are really good.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I find it scummy that all ausuka is doing is constantly shading us and quoting our posts and I don't recall her engaging with other players. This is not towny.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

VOTE: Flare Fluff
Slot is a liability regardless of alignment tbch

FF's reads aren't very well thought out, or at least this one thinks that way because they can't seem to say anything that makes sense when asked to explain reads, and instead get accusatory of others. This would maybe be fine if they weren't doing this with literally every slot thats approached them. Everything is "poor reasons" or "shade" or, as Ausuka said, a "push narrative". NOT a helpful slot if town.

this coming from someone who swore and insulted redon to quit is not really helpful town, so you should think before opening that mouth and calling someone else unhelpful town.






People asked me questions then got mad when answered. i called there tactic scummy reason. HPE your calling everyone scum who ask you question... strange i didn't know i suspected called HWE scum..



~H

[Flare Fluff]

Flare Fluff, I think you misunderstood what I said in 478. Your response in 480 didn't really make sense in the context of what I was saying, so I told you I was confused. You said you didn't care and said I like to parrot others that seem confused. I asked you to explain what you meant and you said "how could you not understand" and "do you get it?!" which felt really condescending

I wasn't trying to be rude or insulting, I was trying to explain to you why I may be having a hard time understanding the point you are trying to make. I'm sorry if you felt insulted

why are you asking me, my english is bad as you claimed. well i don't like fighting. so sorry if i came of rude to.


1. you ask me about your pet theory
2. then i answered this, with town claim is 50/50 but from your pet theory you think i am not town. so perhaps i should went with just 50/50 for claims.
3. you say i didn't answer your pet theory.


what do you think my slot is?

~H

[Flare Fluff]

labeling everything other ppl do as unreasonable without like.. good proof , is just odd af

all i did was say low activity is scum possibility, then got called and labeled shallow.

i even later claimed after my experience with low activity scum in past games, but apparently that myth on this forum, what ever.


you guys have been on roll labeling me and A.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

Just to clarify, in 478 I said I don't think both you and the other hydra are scum anymore. My pet theory involves Rogues being scum with someone else

What pings Rogue as scum to you? past experience?


who would be the other scum?

~H

[Flare Fluff]

labeling everything other ppl do as unreasonable without like.. good proof , is just odd af

i never labeled everything as 100% people took that out context, even when i further explained. but that got ignored


~H

[Flare Fluff]

anyways, tris,Rogue,black i can see as town, after black posted more and cleared up misunderstanding.

i will go back to null on rest, i see people hate reads or list. so i will not do that anymore.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

are there day invest in this sort of setup by scum?


~H

[Flare Fluff]

this is irrelevant to the intent of what i meant

you do not quote anyone most of the time, so hard to see who your referring to.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

It feels like FF is scumreading people that scumread them, which I think is more likely to come from town? Idk, I think it's odd how their read on me changed after I unvoted them and said I didn't really think they were scum anymore

i am not scum reading everyone who suspect me, this is false.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

why did i drop from townlean to scum

town can be scummy to. it the people who take my words out context, if town is really rude. and others twisting what i say.

if you see me scum, that your read.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

thats not how it works, if a behavior is "scummy" but its coming from town, then the behavior was never scummy in the first place, it was just not being read into properly

so if i insulted you, you see that town.


ok


~H

[Flare Fluff]

regardless, it did not seem like that was what was going on here - that you were just calling me scummy, because later on you omited me from a list of townreads, so there was no distinction there that "scummy behavior can come from town"

i don't know how you play as town or scum, you seem opportunist atm about the list and not on list angle


~H

[Flare Fluff]

wait i was literally at the top here, was there no distinction ?

you early response lean town, but later put you at null. i am unsure with your slot and response.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

I come back and turns out I have missed nothing important. It just looks like to me players here don't like the way harle writes her readslist.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I come back and turns out I have missed nothing important. It just looks like to me players here don't like the way harle writes her readslist.

- A

Do you have a readslist?

Null - everyone else
Scum - Ausuka

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I did have Black as a town lean earlier and I wasn't sure anymore on Black and I put her back on null.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Usually I will have at least 1 or 2 town leans and it's hard for me to find town here because I haven't been able to find posts that look town indicative to me.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

VOTE: Flare Fluff
Slot is a liability regardless of alignment tbch

This post pissed me off. The only player who has called us a liability is a toxic player we both hold a grudge against.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

@ Black

What's your current readslist.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I don't like HPE playstyle regardless of what alignment it is.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I don't like HPE playstyle regardless of what alignment it is.

- A

...So now you're saying the exact same thing that this one said which "pissed you off"?

You have argued with Roden and insulted each other, then you attacked Margot, and insulted us. You need to stop that because it makes some players feel uncomfortable.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I don't like HPE playstyle regardless of what alignment it is.

- A

...So now you're saying the exact same thing that this one said which "pissed you off"?

You have argued with Roden and insulted each other, then you attacked Margot, and insulted us. You need to stop that because it makes some players feel uncomfortable.

- A

Very uncharitable and discredity way of looking at my interactions with Margot in particular. Which is why you're getting heat from me, not because this one is some serial toxic shadeass like you seem to so stubbornly believe, with the way you're continually bringing up Roden and unable to move on from that incident.

You're being inconsistent. You voted us because of Harle's readslist and the accusatory and now you are changing your story on this post and said we're getting heat because of the interactions with you and Margot we talked about which is a lie because I never talked about your interactions and instead I asked for your takes and all I remember is you and Roden attacking each other.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I feel like as if my slot has been obv town by play and the players just don't like our playstyles.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Very uncharitable and discredity way of looking at my interactions with Margot in particular. Which is why you're getting heat from me, not because this one is some serial toxic shadeass like you seem to so stubbornly believe, with the way you're continually bringing up Roden and unable to move on from that incident.

tbh it, you seem to have big ego. and come as really rude.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

Anyway, it feels sort of difficult to believe this is an intentional tactic upon reflection. I think there is a certain level of self righteousness and irritation that is very difficult to fake emotionally, and it's also not likely that Adorable and Harle are skilled at that specific manipulation tactic and not anything else that makes for effective scumplay. It doesn't really add up too well for me.

It's possible flare fluff is scum and still genuinely believes what they're saying about the rest of us being stupid because they don't understand what we're saying. I need to think about it more, but I think the flat assumption that people who scumread them are wrong and dumb without really appearing to grapple or address the points being made is not super likely to come from scum.

I never called anyone dumb, but ok with this flat lie narrative. there have been some misunderstanding but i never called anyone stupid/dumb this is really rude/hostile narrative.


every time i read response from this slot, it on new character assassination of me and A and twisting it false accusations like us calling people dumb.




~H

[Flare Fluff]

i mean you told me i don't know how to read like today

you ignored, i even mention people like you and others ignoring what i stated early. for read comment

it does not =stupid/dumb


~H

[Flare Fluff]

Anyway, it feels sort of difficult to believe this is an intentional tactic upon reflection. I think there is a certain level of self righteousness and irritation that is very difficult to fake emotionally, and it's also not likely that Adorable and Harle are skilled at that specific manipulation tactic and not anything else that makes for effective scumplay. It doesn't really add up too well for me.

It's possible flare fluff is scum and still genuinely believes what they're saying about the rest of us being stupid because they don't understand what we're saying. I need to think about it more, but I think the flat assumption that people who scumread them are wrong and dumb without really appearing to grapple or address the points being made is not super likely to come from scum.

I never called anyone dumb, but ok with this flat lie narrative. there have been some misunderstanding but i never called anyone stupid/dumb this is really rude/hostile narrative.


every time i read response from this slot, it on new character assassination of me and A and twisting it false accusations like us calling people dumb.




~H

she meant,

~H

[Flare Fluff]

I'm not sure I understand that there is a significant difference between telling someone they don't know how to read and telling someone they're dumb. I do understand why my comment would upset you if you do consider those things different, so I'm sorry for that.

why would you think someone saying not read=dumb?

if person not reading, this usually means the player is ignoring the question by not reading what the person stated early. To avoid the question.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

It's actually rather hard to simmer down when everyone pushing you is doing so in blatant bad faith.

why should a or i be concerned, you seem to say we are liability which already rude, and here you are complaining about being pushed when no one is even voting you off. except for roden sub in.

are you a drama person? I do not see you top wagon for this complaint.




~H

[Flare Fluff]

Rogues saying black and our slot looking like tvt and attempting to get us to stop tunneling each other looks towny.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Start of day phase when I saw ausuka and tris talking cats, it doesn't look like to me 2 scum would treat each other like that.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

is everyone ready for something cool to happen tonight?

Nothing special will be happening tonight at my place not that I know of.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

i hope ur ok with flare fluff dying instead

anyways since i can stop pretending to have this role, and the fact that

i really think that the top 2 wagons are town

,

im going to be pushing that I think the solve is Tris/Flare Fluff and I want one of those 2 people killed this dayphase.

so you see top two wagons as town, but want me and A voted off.




~H

[Flare Fluff]

i hope ur ok with flare fluff dying instead

anyways since i can stop pretending to have this role, and the fact that

i really think that the top 2 wagons are town

,

im going to be pushing that I think the solve is Tris/Flare Fluff and I want one of those 2 people killed this dayphase.

so you see top two wagons as town, but want me and A voted off.




~H

sorry miss read that, woke up

but still same, so koba claims ausuka and margot town leans, as top voted, then claims me and tris should be killed as solve.

reading back it sounds like tmi impression i get.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

i hope ur ok with flare fluff dying instead

oh your hinting at directing the vote to someone else?


~H

[Flare Fluff]

please keep saying random nonsense that is unsourced it will make it easier to convince other people

no that you putting words in my mouth, everything read so far is you claiming stuff not true. you saying my response is nonsense to avoid my question asked. is just rude

as usual.




~H

[Flare Fluff]

playing on here, people are really hostile, and use ad homina to insult instead of actually discus the topic are being asked or question.

this has happen more then once. i don't think i will play here after this.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

I think its like plainly obvious Flare is just labeling me scummy while trying to completely ignore the entirety of my play to try to cherrypick aspects to paint me as scum. This has been basically the MO of their pushes this game overall.

I also think they just completely avoid logic in a way that suggests that they are trying to work backwards to create a conclusion rather than working forwards - which is fairly indicative of a scum mindset when it comes peoples scumreads.

We suspect you have tmi and I don't even remember Harle calling you scummy. I only remember her shrugging her shoulders in the thread with a gif saying maybe you could be scum and she dropped her town read on you. You talk about the entirety of your posts and from my observation of your play I see nothing fascinating coming from your posts and your posts have been full of troll.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

anyways, tris,Rogue,black i can see as town, after black posted more and cleared up misunderstanding.

i will go back to null on rest, i see people hate reads or list. so i will not do that anymore.


~H

This is Harle's recent reads list with 3 town reads and the rest she put on null which was 2 days ago. DkKoba goes on about Harle painting them as scum and when I read through her iso I didn't see any of that from her so I don't even know what DkKoba is talking about and today I see that Harle is starting to suspect DkKoba has tmi.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

anyways since i can stop pretending to have this role, and the fact that i really think that the top 2 wagons are town, im going to be pushing that I think the solve is Tris/Flare Fluff and I want one of those 2 people killed this dayphase.

And also, why do you think Ausuka and Margot are town? I don't see what's towny about their play.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Ausuka, HPE, DkKoba, Shadow, Margot.

These are the list of players I am okay with flipping because I haven't seen any signs of towniness from them like what I did with the other players I haven't listed and this would be my starting poe.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

HPE playstyle makes no sense to me. It has shaded my recent post for saying my scum read on Margot is new. Margot has been a null read for a long time and players who are null reads I am fine with flipping when it comes to consolidating and you never know, a null read could also flip scum.

HPE saying Koba vote stinks and saying it's a diversion to kill them over Margot saying who didn't provide a single well reasoned post is pretty much the same thing on what Koba is doing. I don't see how are Koba and Margot different from each other to posting for HPE when it comes to their posting and especially when I have seen no signs of towniness from those two.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I am not in a rush to end the day and I will still be around later.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

HPE saying Koba vote stinks and saying it's a diversion to kill them over Margot saying who didn't provide a single well reasoned post is pretty much the same thing on what Koba is doing. I don't see how are Koba and Margot different from each other to posting for HPE when it comes to their posting and especially when I have seen no signs of towniness from those two.

- A

Margot's unreasoned posts are bad lame pushing. Koba's unreasoned posts are just "haha, e-1! someone e-1! haha!". They've also made several actually well-reasoned posts, is the thing. Margot's motivations are scummy, Koba's are towny, despite the E-1 fishing.

Show me the well reasoned posts Koba made. I haven't seen a single post from them that was well reasoned. Margot and Koba have been two null slots.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

My two scumreads are on Ausuka and Rogues who this one isn't so sure about is too, like this one is not touching that wagon with a

100

foot pole.

HPE what does your readslist look like atm

shaddowez

DkKoba

Ausuka

tris
Black

Two Level 1 Rogues

Flare Fluff

MargotRosa

Rogues could probably go to nullville all things considered but this is otherwise how things stand for me.

On the first quote above you said your two scum reads are voting Ausuka and Rogues. The only players who were voting Rogues at the time were Ausuka and tris which mean you have been scum reading one of those two. When I look at your reads list here it seems to be different from your viewpoint on your first post I quoted above.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Who were the players you were scum reading who voted Rogues?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

My two scumreads are on Ausuka and Rogues who this one isn't so sure about is too, like this one is not touching that wagon with a

100

foot pole.

HPE what does your readslist look like atm

shaddowez

DkKoba

Ausuka

tris
Black

Two Level 1 Rogues

Flare Fluff

MargotRosa

Rogues could probably go to nullville all things considered but this is otherwise how things stand for me.

On the first quote above you said your two scum reads are voting Ausuka and Rogues. The only players who were voting Rogues at the time were Ausuka and tris which mean you have been scum reading one of those two. When I look at your reads list here it seems to be different from your viewpoint on your first post I quoted above.

- A

This one... never said that?
"My two scumreads are on Ausuka and Rogues who this one isn't so sure about is too" seems to fairly clearly say "My two scumreads are voting Ausuka and this third player that's iffy is voting her too", even if not precisely.

You need to word your sentence better. It looks like you are saying your scum reads are voting Ausuka and Rogues. Instead of saying and before Rogues you should have put a period at the end after Ausuka and start a new sentence about Rogues so that it would be easier to understand what you are saying.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

HPE saying Koba vote stinks and saying it's a diversion to kill them over Margot saying who didn't provide a single well reasoned post is pretty much the same thing on what Koba is doing. I don't see how are Koba and Margot different from each other to posting for HPE when it comes to their posting and especially when I have seen no signs of towniness from those two.

- A

Margot's unreasoned posts are bad lame pushing. Koba's unreasoned posts are just "haha, e-1! someone e-1! haha!". They've also made several actually well-reasoned posts, is the thing. Margot's motivations are scummy, Koba's are towny, despite the E-1 fishing.

Show me the well reasoned posts Koba made. I haven't seen a single post from them that was well reasoned. Margot and Koba have been two null slots.

- A

56, 501, 524, 563, 705, 710. These all stand out to me as very townie posts, but there's some more wedged into the gaps. The frustrating part about Koba's ISO is everything else which is certifiably NAI shitposting and admittedly questionable E-1/Hammer eagerness, but there's genuine effort behind the scenes.

These posts from Koba are nai and they can easily be faked.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

HPE can you talk about your town read on Ausuka on 158. You put Ausuka as town and you never gave a reason on why you put her as town.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I see that Koba avoided my question just now.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

HPE can you talk about your town read on Ausuka on 158. You put Ausuka as town and you never gave a reason on why you put her as town.

- A

Wagon comp sucks ass, which makes me lean town on Ausuka when no one above null is voting for her.

Are you saying in this post you town read Ausuka for being voted by town and you town read the players who voted Ausuka at start of day phase?

I need more elaboration on how you got to town reading Ausuka for being voted by two other players you are town reading.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

HPE can you talk about your town read on Ausuka on 158. You put Ausuka as town and you never gave a reason on why you put her as town.

- A

Wagon comp sucks ass, which makes me lean town on Ausuka when no one above null is voting for her.

Are you saying in this post you town read Ausuka for being voted by town and you town read the players who voted Ausuka at start of day phase?

I need more elaboration on how you got to town reading Ausuka for being voted by two other players you are town reading.

- A

Ok this is getting ridiculous now after 760.
NOBODY

ABOVE

NULL. Black has fallen to null to me for her posturing towards Koba that this one disagrees with and dislikes, Rogues have been nullscum for a while, and Margot/You are outright scumreads. No one that this one townreads is voting Ausuka. Ausuka is being voted by scum. How did you come up with this one saying Ausuka is town for being voted by its townreads??

I am not able to understand on what you have been saying from your earlier posts on how you got to town reading Ausuka near start of day when she had rvs votes on her. What does no one above null mean? When I look at that phrase "no one above null" it just looks like to me you are talking about anyone you are not town reading.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Koba always has weird reads to me. In team mafia they town read HPE who was scum while me and another town player were the only players who had HPE in poe. In Black's team mafia game I had her as obv town and Koba just now said they had Black as scum in that team mafia game.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I think its like plainly obvious Flare is just labeling me scummy while trying to completely ignore the entirety of my play to try to cherrypick aspects to paint me as scum. This has been basically the MO of their pushes this game overall.

I also think they just completely avoid logic in a way that suggests that they are trying to work backwards to create a conclusion rather than working forwards - which is fairly indicative of a scum mindset when it comes peoples scumreads.

I never said you where scummy, or painted you. This is a lie as even A pointed this out.

If you read what i said early instead of ignoring it, As caught here you are lying by your choice of words. You would have saw i said i had other including you back at null.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

FF (Specifically Harle's) responses to my questioning seems like it was coming from a place of frustration (seemingly assuming that I was attacking their slot in 451

, when I was just trying to get an opinion). The rest of her posts seem as if she is putting herself in the spotlight a lot more than I think scum otherwise would, especially without knowing the meta of the site. It feels quite authentic.
I realise I'm mainly townreading Harle rather than the slot itself necessarily, so do want to reread A's posts specifically to see if they remind me of the 09:12.

I'm not sure how I feel about partner analysis before a flip happens, so I'm not too sure about the tris/Ausuka discourse right now?

- Theran

Is Fluff posting more townie than posting content less frequently/"inactivity"?

- Theran

oh you think both town/scum can't be inactive, it only town?

~H

What pings Rogue as scum to you? past experience?


who would be the other scum?

~H

other lie, but now rogue beside koba, as seen in post above, they are saying my response was like a attack to there question, out of frustration, yet this never has never happen or is my response like that.

As can see my response to his question and me question them for answer. from 451.

there is no frustration in my tone, i am asking his opinion about it.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

I don't think Rogues will come back. Thomith is from the UK and it's almost 2 am there. Dragon I don't know where he is from and it looks like to me his timezone is closer to Thomith.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

If Rogues flips mafia it looks like the game can easily be solvable afterwards because Rogues looks unpaired with almost half of the players.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

After seeing Rogues flip mafia my readslist looks like this

Town: tris, DkKoba
Null: everyone else

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I want to know what was Margot's result from night 1 if she has any helpful info.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

@shaddowdez I want to know what are your reads. You did not give reads last day and you were nonexistent. I have you as a vote candidate because of this.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

After seeing Rogues flip mafia my readslist looks like this

Town: tris, DkKoba
Null: everyone else

- A

Why tris?

It was her vote flip flopping back to Rogues and just vibes.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Not surprised at rogue flipping scum after they twisted my words early as emotional, before later trying to correct themselves.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

Not surprised at rogue flipping scum after they twisted my words early as emotional, before later trying to correct themselves.


~H

What did you see in Rogues' ISO that made you move them to town?

they where more polite, reason thinking town later. but then when i saw them twisting my words to reply i made about emotional, which the reply had non of that. i found that sus/scummy. like they where trying to blend in.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

All I got was that Tris was not a detector lol. I am now a Tornado, in that I can swap people's roles randomly at night

I am disappointed that you targeted tris and there were better candidates you could have targeted. Why did you target tris?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I'll get to the list, but I just want to clarify that you think I'm scum because I haven't provided a reads list, and have low activity? My activity at worst should be NAI, as several people here can tell you, or I can link you every game I've been in since coming back to the site.

The answer is on this post 1030

- A

[Flare Fluff]

plus his reaction to being shitpushed for not being here was towny IMO, did not get defensive at all or had any fear around it indicating they were not concerned that theyd get eliminated

I don't see how it was towny.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

We are mason with tris.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

My poe is in shaddow, Margot, HPE, Black. I have seen nothing towny from these players.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

i threw away the flare/tris mason theory bc I just couldn't believe that masons would just so blatantly suspect people who suspected them but it still happens ig

How does it feel to scum read both of the masons?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

DkKoba's reads don't make sense to me and they are not being clear.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Koba been mention word mason non stop, looked anti town wanting the mason to claim day 1 to be killed at night, even put ausuka as mason, she turned up dead.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

DkKoba's reads don't make sense to me and they are not being clear.

- A

maybe try reading the game you're reading instead of ctrl-Fing who is pushing you

I have read the game. It's your posting and reads that don't make sense. You're the one who hasn't been reading the game and you have misrepped us two times.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I have you as town DkKoba. I just have issues with the way how you present your reads and you have failed to realize that Rogues tmied us town on day 1. I was surprised that you did not notice this after seeing Rogues flip scum.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

and one of the slots NOT involved with the shaddowez wagon flipping scum is kinda reeking of fish, to me.

And to expand on this in particular:
As my 154 laid out: Roden, tris, Ausuka and technically Koba were on the shaddowez wagon. That's 2 conftown. And of the two "outlier" slots that were on neither of the RVS wagons, the hydrae, one is conftown, and the other is scum. Ausuka flipped town, but shaddowez... It makes me think.

I want to see reads that are not based on wagons and instead I want to see reads from the content of the player's posts. Doing reads based on wagons makes it look like a tmi read.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I want Margot and Shaddow to post more. It makes it hard to read them without seeing more content from them.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Between the four players in HPE, shaddow, Black, and Margot, I would say Margot looks the towniest among the four for wanting to give reads before she thought she was going to get hammered last day. It can still be fakeable but at least it's something.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

HPE what does your readslist look like atm

shaddowez

DkKoba

Ausuka

tris
Black

Two Level 1 Rogues

Flare Fluff

MargotRosa

Rogues could probably go to nullville all things considered but this is otherwise how things stand for me.

Can you explain your progression on shaddow here from being town lock on day 1 to instantly being your first vote candidate on day 2? On day 2 you said you would vote in either shaddow or Black and why did you choose to want to vote shaddow over Black who you has as a null read?

- A

[Flare Fluff]

HPE what does your readslist look like atm

shaddowez

DkKoba

Ausuka

tris
Black

Two Level 1 Rogues

Flare Fluff

MargotRosa

Rogues could probably go to nullville all things considered but this is otherwise how things stand for me.

Can you explain your progression on shaddow here from being town lock on day 1 to instantly being your first vote candidate on day 2? On day 2 you said you would vote in either shaddow or Black and why did you choose to want to vote shaddow over Black who you has as a null read?

- A

This one has already explained the correlation between shaddowez and Rogues.

Can you show me the post where you explained so that I can see it.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

So at this point PoE leads me to believe it's in Margot/HPE/Black, with Koba a far outlier. Black I'm not getting scum vibes from, her play is very similar here to a
recent town game I had with her.

My Margot read is based largely on Roden's early play, and her early replace in didn't give me town vibes, but her end of Day play did.

That really leaves me only with HPE, so I'll go 1v1 there. I know I'm town and don't want to be limmed toDay, but if that leads to a win tomorrow I'm fine with it.

Still don't like FF play, but since tris didn't cc the mason claim that clears both of them.

Wasn't really expecting this to be the reads list I owe Flare when I started it, but it ended up being that.

I don't like your play either.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

So at this point PoE leads me to believe it's in Margot/HPE/Black, with Koba a far outlier. Black I'm not getting scum vibes from, her play is very similar here to a
recent town game I had with her.

My Margot read is based largely on Roden's early play, and her early replace in didn't give me town vibes, but her end of Day play did.

That really leaves me only with HPE, so I'll go 1v1 there. I know I'm town and don't want to be limmed toDay, but if that leads to a win tomorrow I'm fine with it.

Still don't like FF play, but since tris didn't cc the mason claim that clears both of them.

Wasn't really expecting this to be the reads list I owe Flare when I started it, but it ended up being that.

I don't like your play either.

- A

And that's completely fair. The question is more of do you

actually

think it's scummy play, or do you just not like the fact that I don't post enough? Honestly, my problem with your slot was more your other half and the way they were reacting and twisting posts. The more recent posts seem to be more solving than reacting, which is more towny than at first.

I don't find your play scummy. I just don't like how you are not posting enough. I had the urge to attempt to interact with you to get some more content from you.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

God of Madness

Town aligned. Each night, may target two players. Their roles, but not alignments, are swapped. If a role swapped is incompatible with the new alignment it has, make the minimum amount of changes needed to make it work.

Inspired by a game on my homesite with this mechanic.

if this is the role that caused me to lose my role, then get rekt whoever swapped with me

skygazer said it was tornado! my tornado

Do you know if your tornado swapped roles only for slots of the same alignment?

The tornado only swaps action roles and it doesn't swap alignments.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I think everyone got their action cards swapped because it doesn't specify slots of the same alignment.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Is mason considered an alignment, a modifier, or a role in this game?

It's a role in this game. The setup said it's 2 town mason, 5 vanilla town, and 2 mafia goons.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Is mason considered an alignment, a modifier, or a role in this game?

It's a role in this game. The setup said it's 2 town mason, 5 vanilla town, and 2 mafia goons.

- A

So is that a card that got swapped with the tornado?

No, mason are not cards and they don't get swapped with the tornado.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

So at this point PoE leads me to believe it's in Margot/HPE/Black, with Koba a far outlier. Black I'm not getting scum vibes from, her play is very similar here to a
recent town game I had with her.

My Margot read is based largely on Roden's early play, and her early replace in didn't give me town vibes, but her end of Day play did.

That really leaves me only with HPE, so I'll go 1v1 there. I know I'm town and don't want to be limmed toDay, but if that leads to a win tomorrow I'm fine with it.

Still don't like FF play, but since tris didn't cc the mason claim that clears both of them.

Wasn't really expecting this to be the reads list I owe Flare when I started it, but it ended up being that.

I don't like your play either.

- A

And that's completely fair. The question is more of do you

actually

think it's scummy play, or do you just not like the fact that I don't post enough? Honestly, my problem with your slot was more your other half and the way they were reacting and twisting posts. The more recent posts seem to be more solving than reacting, which is more towny than at first.

Can you show me where was Harle twisting posts.

I will need to see evidence on where did she twist posts because when Rogues said that Harle was attacking their question out of frustration, Harle never did that and Rogues turned out to be scum.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

And that's completely fair. The question is more of do you actually think it's scummy play, or do you just not like the fact that I don't post enough? Honestly, my problem with your slot was more your other half and the way they were reacting and twisting posts. The more recent posts seem to be more solving than reacting, which is more towny than at first.

other lie,


~H

[Flare Fluff]

It may have been misunderstanding from one side or the other based on language barrier, but she was definitely taking what was being said to a different place.

none of those post, have twisting, second one was sarcasm. the only one here twisting is you building some false narrative like rogue was trying to do to blend in.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

I want Margot and Shaddow to post more. It makes it hard to read them without seeing more content from them.

- A

agree with this, less margot make me agree about hpe, it was stating margot was scum,(though it looks frustrated)

shadow i see also trying to paint twist narrative even after A claimed for me and her. so what is the point to this?


~H

[Flare Fluff]

they said how they interpreted it, and if town that is a plausible genuine way to interpret it. just because you didnt intend it that way, it is interpretable like that because you misinterpreted those words.

it is twisted, just here its because of human error, not malice

A already claimed, so why does shadow need to bring up something that is not true in how i interacted early like this will bring new topic, a has already claimed, so where is going with this?


~H

[Flare Fluff]

they said how they interpreted it, and if town that is a plausible genuine way to interpret it. just because you didnt intend it that way, it is interpretable like that because you misinterpreted those words.

it is twisted, just here its because of human error, not malice

A already claimed, so why does shadow need to bring up something that is not true in how i interacted early like this will bring new topic, a has already claimed, so where is going with this?


~H

correction-is he going with this.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

I'm only going to bother with one of the posts as an example, because I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who won't listen and learn.

Rogues explicitly asks if one is

MORE

townie than the other, and never says anything about the activity in question being solely one alignment. Your response is, as quoted "

only town

.

That is literally the definition of twisting words, because you did not answer what was asked and phrased it to make them look bad.

Is Fluff posting more townie than posting content less frequently/"inactivity"?

- Theran

oh you think both town/scum can't be inactive, it only town?

~H

he said is less post= scum, where i asked him his opinion on it.

the only one twisting is you

there is no making rogue bad, as you claim.

~H

[Flare Fluff]

Actually you know what, fuck it

VOTE: Koba

I want to resolve this before HPE/shaddow now

koba attitude comes of awful.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

like what the fuck does this engage solve

why you need to quote me, when shadow the one who keeps bringing it up. i am responding to him, not you.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

Vote there with me please

@HPE
@shaddow

If ya'll are town I encourage you to do the same

how do i bold the vote?


~H

[Flare Fluff]

@ DkKoba I want you to stop being rude to Harle.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

I am gone for 30 minutes and once when I come back I see Harle vs DkKoba again.

- A

[Flare Fluff]

Vote tags - [ v ] [ /v ] minus the spaces

Thank you!

VOTE: Vote Koba

placing my vote here, since day one been obsessed with mason talk, ausuke died later, because of koba saying ausuka is mason, trying to get other claim mason.


I will leave vote here, for A to decide, but not fan of koba.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

a more experienced player might read my prior games, and notice that when masons are present i talk about them regardless of alignment, even tris can tell you this as we had a mason game in my very first game with her.

i am new to playing on this site, so i wouldn't know, or give reason to believe what people claim, since this is mafia game.



~H

[Flare Fluff]

More votes on Koba please

They are flailing

has koba played like this when they are scum past game?


~H

[Flare Fluff]

your other head should be in charge of votes, you have consistently made anti town pushes based on personal feelings

you see, other town who read you won't mind voting you out, nothing about you has been team player, instead you just involve your self into discussion to insult others while sound like a know it all. which is obnoxious behavior, but yeah keep saying emotion? again why you replying to me? shouldn't you be scum haunting? but instead talking down on players is more important.

I see no effort beside the rudeness.


~H

[Flare Fluff]

why is black town?

she is not being bias, about other people play like you are.

I read her question to you early, and you defending you can't do that as scum, and black question saying that is not true since player can change how they play, she looked more to solving for her response to you, and later vote.


I think shadow or you is potential to be scum, there is still margot which am null

~H