Daniel Anix Presents: The 20th Anniversary of UPick Game

[jjh927]

You know, if you want to vote anix I actually can give you that option but I don't think it's worth doing until later in the day phase

[jjh927]

VOTE: Klick

[jjh927]

Though I dunno. Maybe we read "miller" to a rolecop. That's how it usually works in non-bastard games.

You should probably ask what a normal rolecop would get as a result from you just to check

This. . . is definitely a bastard game in at least one significant sense

[jjh927]

I should probably go back to sleep

I am quite ill at present

[jjh927]

Do you think it's time we stopped pretending this might not be a meme game

[jjh927]

Do you think it's time we stopped pretending this might not be a meme game

I wanna play mafia though. :/

-Bell

Me too, so I'm not going to use my role that literally brings anix into the game on an alt account that operates under defined parameters until later in the day phase

[jjh927]

I'm not yet

[jjh927]

Or rather, I'm keeping an eye on things and the gaming will start when Klick shows up

[jjh927]

Or rather, I'm keeping an eye on things and the gaming will start when Klick shows up

what's the wait for

Klick to show up

[jjh927]

so i'm struggling to see why we'd like to keep you alive when you could just literally be scum and we won't find out until the game ends. i feel like i'd rather flip you then get pleasantly surprised when the game ends after we flip 1 and a half scum. eliminating you will give us a sample red pm too and i think that's relevant because anix didn't give out anything in the first page. scum could have a crazy wild reveal on win con and having that day 1 will be enormous.

on one hand, i don't see scum going into the thread with a bunch of all-stars and then going too scummy to be scum. they're immediately going to be in the elim pool one way or the other. so I'm weighing it against the possibility that you're the 1/2 scum PR that activates some sort of ability for your team upon death.

An 11 headed hydra managing to agree on fakeclaiming death miller feels wildly unlikely to me

How likely do you think it is that scum have an abnormal wincon?

[jjh927]

i dont know if an abnormal wincon is as likely as anything if anix decided to hide sample role pms. also, 11-headed scum unanimously voting to fakeclaim deathmiller is only unlikely if they're a goon or something. and that's assuming if it's a unanimous vote, not a majority/plurality. but if they're a special kind of scum that activates something upon death then it's probably going to be the top strategy, even unanimously.

I don't think anix has so much decided to hide sample role pms, rather he has just not made them.
I would rather play towards town wincon than try to gather information about and then thwart an unknown scum alternate wincon that is unlikely to exist and that is most likely beaten by playing to town wincon anyway


I'm also picking up that you think claiming death miller is a strategy for scum to get eliminated on day 1. I don't think that's true, and I think you would struggle to find scum roles that actually want to be eliminated on day 1 in terms of optimal strategy.

[jjh927]

Every post the risk of me firing off early and leaving mechanical territory to actually play mafia is increasing

[jjh927]

i'm not particular on day 1, but sure. also we have roles that make you choose smoke or drink, so i don't think we're playing in-the-box.

are you townreading the claim, jjh927?

I mean, this is a upick

This is specifically a upick with bastard elements


I'm townreading the claim and actually the slot as well though

[jjh927]

I would like to once again stress that this is a wacky bastard upick and my threats of bringing an anix controlled slot into the game are not unfounded

[jjh927]

HEM was putting out a very weak counterargument that limming cabal could provide information and I wanted them to elaborate so I could evaluate whether they actually believed what they were saying or not

[jjh927]

My reminder was more in light of this post

They did not. They’ve barely posted in the discord.
But I don’t really think they would’ve said no to what is commonly thought to be the objectively correct play.
-Bell

My point is that the argument "I wouldn't have agreed to this as scum" doesn't make sense if he didn't actually agree to it beforehand.

To further elucidate my thinking, the idea is that while this is one of the vanishingly few games I would believe a Death Miller to even be possible, I do not find it plausible. I also don't think it's a surprise to anyone that most players are going to predisposed to voting out one of us, simply due to our hydric nature. So, if you're scum, and you're expecting a high chance of dying anyway, and it's a wacky bastard U-Pick... Death Miller's not a bad claim. Prevents us from drawing real conclusions from your flip, which deters people from seeking it, and permanently hinders analysis of it if it does happen.

You are right though that claiming immediately is correct play if you aren't lying. But I just can't bring myself to believe a Death Miller exists at this point.

- Rat

To be precise, that you don't find death miller to be plausible is the thing I find issue with in a game that the moderator will literally be able to make posts in

There is a non-zero chance that kinda troll picks got kinda troll roles

[jjh927]

Outside of the specific parameters I'm given, anix will just play the slot however the hell he wants

[jjh927]

The rationale for being user aligned is that bork is a tech admin who's overriding concern is keeping the site up and running. We're a death miller because despite being as purehearted as the driven Wisconsin snow Bork likes to shovel while designing games, nevertheless his name is in red.

I don't believe this claim. Bork is by all means still an

admin

, so this leads towards bastard flavor.

Do you understand how upicks work

[jjh927]

This is a uPick

Your flavour impacts your role creation. Alignment is still random

[jjh927]

AniX, please can you confirm whether alignments were determined randomly

[jjh927]

While you're at it, could you provide a sample scum role PM or at least their wincon?

[jjh927]

Hmm, a possible quirk of the upick system within this game has occurred to me and I'm not sure I should share that yet

[jjh927]

That was the part I wasn't sure about sharing, Sky

Do we know that everyone was told to pick something with the same criteria

[jjh927]

wasn’t that in the sign up post

I distinctly remember it was not, unless I was blind

The first I heard of what we would be upicking was sent out via PM, and I instantly came up with a GENIUS retort

[jjh927]

It probably is public knowledge but I'd just kinda had the thought that what if scum were told to pick something else

[jjh927]

Would probably make the game quite easy following an actual scumflip

Would be harder to put 2 and 2 together with a death miller in the setup but I'm gonna discount my own theory for now

[jjh927]

Pooky, that probably means that if the warn thing is the factional scumkill, due to the quickhammer scum probably did not warn someone during day 1

[jjh927]

If we go with the 1 scum night post and 1 scum day post theory, then the other scum is logically one of the 2 players who had not posted in day 1

[jjh927]

Where is my child

[jjh927]

Ah, so it wasn't that there were flat out 0 posts in the PT overall

Whoever did the extra vote yesterday is locktown because as I said, I think it is likely it caused the scum to effectively lose their nightkill equivalent for the day too

[jjh927]

Also I have just put us back into 11 players

[jjh927]

VOTE: Klick

[jjh927]

I'm just gonna mock something up, gimme a second

[jjh927]

Spoiler: Actual scum flip

[

You are

The Color Red

. Red is the color of Administration on this site. The head honcho. The big cheese. The one true Administrator. And it is time the userbase started to respect what that means.

You are part of The Administrative Team and your teammate is [NICETRY]. You may talk to them here during night phases and confirmations. You may NOT post there during Day Phases, but your teammate can.

Each Day Phase, you may choose to Warn a player. This player will be considered Warned for the remainder of the game. These warnings are not public. You will be told every player who has been Warned, even if it is not the player you targeted.

Once per day, if a member of The Administrative Team took no action the previous night, you may choose to Ban a Warned player.

You are

Admin-aligned

and win when all

User-aligned

players are Banned and at least one

Admin-aligned

player is not Banned.

Please respond to this PM within 48 hours with a brief summary of your role to confirm having read it.

Spoiler: Everything in reverse

[

You are

The Color Red

. Red is the color of Administration on this site. The head honcho. The big cheese. The one true Administrator. And it is time the userbase started to respect what that means.

You are part of The Administrative Team and your teammate is [NICETRY]. You may talk to them here during day phases and confirmations. You may NOT post there during night Phases, but your teammate can.

Each night Phase, you may choose to Warn a player. This player will be considered Warned for the remainder of the game. These warnings are not public. You will be told every player who has been Warned, even if it is not the player you targeted.

Once per night, if a member of The Administrative Team took no action the previous day, you may choose to Ban a Warned player.

You are

Admin-aligned

and win when all

User-aligned

players are Banned and at least one

Admin-aligned

player is not Banned.

Please respond to this PM within 48 hours with a brief summary of your role to confirm having read it.

[jjh927]

Not sure if the lack of kill actually implies that somebody was warned in day 1 and so the other scum couldn't kill, or that the second scum is unable to warn someone and kill that same person simultaneously

[jjh927]

I have a pet theory about drinking, but need more data.

-Luke

This sounds like a drinking problem

[jjh927]

If you've forgotten that the cabal's death miller claim also appears to be mafia by all possible game interactions this will be awkward, but not impossible to get some use out of

[jjh927]

i learned cabal has the same wincon as me. which if they picked drink, is at odds with something they said about their role

That is logically impossible

If cabal is lying about being a death miller it is a reasonable assumption, although it is an assumption, that they must be scum

If cabal is not lying about being a death miller then that result is impossible


I would search for another explanation

[jjh927]

so are you a death miller only in so far as you flip scum when you die? or if you're visited by an investigative, you'll be a positive result as well?

Both

I think Bell or Luke answered this on page 1 or 2.

here it is

so cabal may have picked smoke and lied about the miller role bc my result could not happen if what theyre saying is true and they picked drink

But in that scenario, they have the same wincon as you, which means they are town anyway?

[jjh927]

Okay so now we've gone round the circle, we have determined you got a guilty result on a claimed miller

[jjh927]

Okay so now we've gone round the circle, we have determined you got a guilty result on a claimed miller

i got an inno on a miller which would never happen unless they picked smoke and lied and said they drank

Do you learn a lie only if the specific person you are gaining information on smoked, or is it if anyone smoked?

[jjh927]

That does in fact logically track with scum!cabal smoking being the only possible explanation unless there are strange mechanical interactions at play

[jjh927]

Is there any logic to how the thing you are told is decided?

[jjh927]

I think it's a little suspicious (not of you, of AniX and the setup) that you got an alignment related statement for the death miller

[jjh927]

This definitely feels more like mechanical fuckery than a guilty

[jjh927]

Do we have to quote that specific post or have I already inadvertently quoted you

[jjh927]

Cabal, if you acted at night, would it have prevented ITF from daykilling someone?

[jjh927]

Would you like someone to vote you, dannflor

[jjh927]

It may be useful information that if you vote me or generally encourage voting me, anix will vote you

[jjh927]

I think it's a little suspicious (not of you, of AniX and the setup) that you got an alignment related statement for the death miller

[jjh927]

Personally, when anix asked everyone to submit something related to anix, I kinda just felt obligated to respond with "ur mum"

[jjh927]

quote this if you want to party

but when the party starts, keep in mind that alcohol brings the truth out and weed makes your more paranoid

Are the facts you receive intentionally misleading?

[jjh927]

(figured it was worth a shot just in case asking a question gets you the question answered)

[jjh927]

Yes, that does happen

[jjh927]

Dannflor, if you would like to be voted by either a random person or anyone in particular then now is the time

The AniX slot may confuse any abilities that would target me, however

[jjh927]

For future referece, there is no reason to vote anix unless you want anix to vote you. He has no alignment

The existence of the slot does block me from being limmed because he'd go in my place, so if there is ever desire to eliminate me, I will send him away

[jjh927]

For future referece, there is no reason to vote anix unless you want anix to vote you. He has no alignment

The existence of the slot does block me from being limmed because he'd go in my place, so if there is ever desire to eliminate me, I will send him away

do you know if he has a real vote?

Yes, I have explained that he does have a real vote

[jjh927]

For future referece, there is no reason to vote anix unless you want anix to vote you. He has no alignment

The existence of the slot does block me from being limmed because he'd go in my place, so if there is ever desire to eliminate me, I will send him away

Any way they could be scum or is the wording airtight?

-Bell

The wording is airtight

The slot is controlled by anix and has no wincon.

Now, because anix can and will do whatever he feels like outside of some set parameters, he can do harm or good, and being the game moderator he will know whether he is doing harm or good, but there shouldn't be any motivation behind that with respect to trying to win the game

[jjh927]

Oh, he doesn't have an action either

[jjh927]

Basically, the main impacts of AniX being in the thread are:
-If you vote me or generally suggest that I should be voted, then AniX will vote you.
-If you vote me out, AniX will be voted out instead
-I can permanently send anix away, and would do so if I was going to be voted out because while eliminating me is bad, spending 2 phases eliminating me is worse
-Things that target me will be kinda fucky in a way I don't want to explain

Disclaimer: Since AniX has been shown to have voted outside of the parameters given, it is not inconceivable to me that AniX might take the opportunity to lolhammer

[jjh927]

i learned delinquent anix and i share 0 win conditions lol

I quoted you in this day phase before anix did, and yet I haven't been given the choice yet

[jjh927]

I got it now

Complaining is always the answer

[jjh927]

Nothing yet

[jjh927]

I am still wondering where klick is

[jjh927]

i think Zefiend is the first person to point out I've done basically nothing in day 2 which to me is a very good sign

[jjh927]

I think I did some stuff in day 1, or at least I was very geared up

I don't recall if I shared my working

[jjh927]

For what it's worth I think scum is within halfasleep, Klick, HEM, with HEM being the least likely

[jjh927]

that's not an insult, just an illustration of how it feels like a bit of a nothing-observation to me

Nobody else had said it

[jjh927]

I learned that nobody has chosen to smoke today, which has some utility I guess

[jjh927]

Nice try scumbutt

[jjh927]

VOTE: Zefiend[/vote

I am inclined to agree as that was a conventional nightkill that got aimed at me there

[jjh927]

Did scum say anything, pooky

[jjh927]

That is unusual

I am informed when I am targeted by something and can make it target anix instead, which is why I am alive and anix is not

The whole target switching business and messy implementation makes me think scum went back and forth on deciding to shoot me

[jjh927]

I mean, if we're wrong the worst that will happen is the remaining scum will just shoot me again

[jjh927]

UNVOTE:


Intent to put back in hammer range later

[jjh927]

I'm with you Bell

Don't think you need to expend energy on this

[jjh927]

Apologies I was incorrect and it seems you do need to expend energy on this

[jjh927]

This sounds like bullshit given that as I have stated, my role informs me when I am targeted by a role

Specifically like, in the middle of the night

and then I get to make the call on whether to redirect that to anix

[jjh927]

A random redirection element existing in the setup in addition to the way my PM is worded would not make sense

[jjh927]

Also, this is an 11p game, so any fart noises about a malicious 3p in a game where we have had a single nightkill on a slot that wasn't even in the game at the start will not be entertained at this moment

[jjh927]

Well, hammer happened, so if I'm wrong I'd rather not make myself look any stupider

[jjh927]

I assumed that ITF's arson-like thingy would have people be told when they get warned but can't remember if that was in the PM

[jjh927]

So if that was around we'd know about that

They defo just have a normal type of kill because of the way they massacred my boy

[jjh927]

That is unusual

I am informed when I am targeted by something and can make it target anix instead, which is why I am alive and anix is not

The whole target switching business and messy implementation makes me think scum went back and forth on deciding to shoot me

So you're told that you're targeted? not by whom or what action?

Yes, exactly that

[jjh927]

Alignments were determined semi-randomly. No flavor or submission individually was more or less likely to be assigned a particular alignment, but like submissions were more likely to be given the same alignment.

[jjh927]

Red always mafia

[jjh927]

Red always mafia

I will take you activating delinquent AniX again as a scumsiding 3p claim, btw. I think it’s a reasonable assumption that donning the red crown will make delinquent AniX scum.

I am incapable of activating anix a second time.

This was even the fact that sky said about me.



Also that is not a reasonable assumption.

[jjh927]

A mod-controlled slot getting a nightkill would be pretty dumb

[jjh927]

Did hem mention anything about anix before the claim

Also, yeah, the game is dumb but it would be an additional dumb step

[jjh927]

How does a role hide from a game moderator controlled slot

[jjh927]

Well, he ultimately killed anix in a very roundabout way if he is scum so yeah

[jjh927]

Why wouldn't it potentially be town

[jjh927]

Have dannflor or pooky flavourclaimed

[jjh927]

Because everyone else in the game has I think, and I think the claims were quite plausible

[jjh927]

Flavourclaim then

[jjh927]

I would have to ask

Is it relevant?

[jjh927]

Based on 802 I don't think HEM understands the nature of the guilty being claimed here and you may be catching some of that

[jjh927]

VOTE: HumanEatingMonkey

[jjh927]

Are those two separate statements

ie, on night 1 all actions targeted the same player, and on night 2 all actions targeted the same player (who could be different from the night 1 player)

[jjh927]

Essentially on N2 it's just an all roads lead to rome situation where zefiend randomly redirected to me and I redirected to AniX, although with that being said I was under the impression that I would redirect each individual action that showed up on me and that by my understanding of the way the actions resolve AniX shouldn't actually have been killed

[jjh927]

Since it might interest some people, I'll muse a bit more on that latter topic

Zefiend targets WePick with the redirect, and I am randomly selected
At this point, I believe I am a second target of Zefiend. And I think this would be where my role triggered and I am informed I have been targeted, and am given the chance to redirect to AniX.

Scumbutt targets WePick with the nightkill and gets redirected
WePick targets Zefiend with whatever cool ability they have and are also redirected

Ultimately, everything except zefiend ends up on AniX. Thing is, I was only given the redirect decision once so logically I must have redirected the redirect. Which means the other two actions- the kill and the wepick thing - were both redirected by Zefiend, but NOT by me, which I think is a meaningful distinction based on my role PM

[jjh927]

Just to clarify, I didn't actually get directly targeted by a kill because zefiend was implausibly telling the truth

[jjh927]

The slot that is cleared by being targeted by a kill is actually you

[jjh927]

So are you a redirector (you changed wepick's ability)

or

a deflector (you changed an ability that targeted wepick)

I don't want to get in trouble for quoting the wrong thing. But I can safely say that 1) I targeted WePick. 2) I learned they were targeted with a kill. Under your definitions, I'd be a deflector.

[jjh927]

Actually

VOTE: [/unvote]

Can we maybe get a little more clarification on Dannflor's role before moving forwards

[jjh927]

Dannflor wasn't voted in day 2, but was in day 3- correct me if I am wrong?

[jjh927]

Did dann clarify whether self voting did the thing?

[jjh927]

So, should wepick's result in N3 have returned a 0?

[jjh927]

Ah, it's if he's not voted. All good

[jjh927]

Next consideration. Everyone targeted the same person in n1, but also Dannflor believes he must have been targeted or my day action would have failed

Did wepick target someone in day 1?

[jjh927]

night 1 I mean

[jjh927]

Anix didn't have a town role pm

[jjh927]

But yeah could Dannflor have been the only one targeted in n1, and how would that track with whatever wepick has been doing

[jjh927]

Well, Dannflor said he must have been targeted in N1, or my ability to summon anix would not have worked in d2

[jjh927]

And according to cabal everyone targeted the same person in n1

therefore, every night action targeted dannflor in n1?

But I'm guessing that doesn't track with whatever you guys did in n1

[jjh927]

Tbf, anix showing up in the thread is basically returning a 0

[jjh927]

Yes

[jjh927]

I just thought I'd explore whatever the deal was with Dannflor's role and possible gamestate interactions

I still think it's just HEM

[jjh927]

I think based on what has been said, wepick's guilty cannot be misplaced or ambiguous here

[jjh927]

Hey wepick, I know you can't go into any detail, but do you think it is plausible that everybody who used night actions targeted dannflor on n1

[jjh927]

You're talking about n2. I was asking about n1

This was a thinly veiled way of me asking if you might have targeted dannflor on night 1