Amnesiac Mafia: The Movie! That's a Wrap!

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First that actually counts

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VOTE: Dragoneater based exclusively of page 2

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Memory!
I seem to have lost my memory!
Am I a cat or a canary?
I can't seem to recall.

Revery!
I woke up from my revery!
I have gaps in my memory.
Left by much alcohol.

But remember,
you treat that bore
by having some more.
F*** the memory,
forget it all!

(Swedish drinking song, translated and edited by me. Shame on you if you can't guess the tune.)

I really tried and I couldn’t guess it, please end my suffering and spoil it to me ‘cause it’s killing me

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Ohhhh I thought about it but immediately started thinking of anything by Abba and never came back to it. Yeah it’s kind of obvious

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Someone help me. Alisae is yelling at me

Tell Ali I say hi I hope that helps

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Too many votes on Firebringer

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I like the Ali stuff as a matter of fact
And I like everything that FB has posted so far

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Too many votes on Firebringer

Not really? We need a way to get out of RVS (which I think we partly have, but not yet fully).

How are we bot out of RVS already?

Can you explain why you thought it's too many votes? And where did you want to push instead?

Too many votes on town, and ideally push not town instead

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I’m also gonna blatantly avoid the whole Dunn vs FB for now because :^)

Good answer, good answer

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Who is a good not-town candodate to push?

DragonEater70 - 1 (Pink Ball)

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I want more from Pink Ball

Assume I’m V/LA until tonight

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ssume I’m V/LA until tonight

Well it seems like you are keeping up with the thread at least so I'll be looking forward to your thoughts later. No rush!

I am! Just not fully available to post, went to my home town for the weekend with my baby while the mother went to Buenos Aires, a little bit of a chaotic time to start a mafia game, but I’ve been reading to avoid getting behind.

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Oh also I’ll be strictly phone posting for like next 4 days or so.

So pls try not to wallpost too hard y’all

I’ll post the entire bee movie script

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Who is a good not-town candodate to push?

DragonEater70 - 1 (Pink Ball)

Sorry wrong answer. I am town this game (actually I am town every game and it's getting a bit annoying, but nevermind about that).

If you insist to SR me, pease explain why?

What’s getting annoying?

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Who is a good not-town candodate to push?

DragonEater70 - 1 (Pink Ball)

Sorry wrong answer. I am town this game (actually I am town every game and it's getting a bit annoying, but nevermind about that).

If you insist to SR me, pease explain why?

What’s getting annoying?

Rolling town like 10 games in a row.

Oh ok, thought you were saying what Shea said, getting wrongly scumread or me specifically scum reading you

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Which wasn’t true since I correctly townread you our last game together

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I think dragon gets run up as town a lot and is annoyed by that generally, at least thats my perception from being pretty involved in the newbies queues over the last few months.

Do you usually do this? Answering questions directed to others? I’m not criticizing I’m genuinely curious

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I feel you
I do have vibe reads tho

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If I share them with how little time I've got to post it would be the same as not sharing them at all. It would look like a readlist rather than my actual thoughts.

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So?

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Game started 30 hours ago. I was away of home without my computer. Arrived today at noon, daddy Pink Ball responsabilities until the baby went to sleep, my wife arrived from BsAs so hubby Pink Ball responsabilities and now I'm doing a presentation for work tomorrow.

So do you want a readlist or my actual thoughts? I can give you the former, the latter will have to wait.

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Bruh

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I have examples of games where I actually want to be active and have time to be part of the game. Throwing a readlist is not part of that

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I can attest to having the described scum mindset often as town fwiw
It comes more from a place of feeling like I'll be ignored if I don't present my most pressing thoughts appropriately/just trying to find the most effective time and means of saying what I want to say

I want to chime in and say I share this anxiety too, but mine actually does come from not wanting to seem scummy. Yes, town worries about seeming scummy too and idk where the perception comes from that they don't

I feel way more comfortable as scum than as town when being pressured, but I'd say that Klick nailed what I feel this time.

After all, this is Team Mafia. I have a team to represent.

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I'm reading

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From 16 to 18 pm I'll be at the store and I usually have a lot of time there, today especially seems like it will be a slow day. See you there!

(That's 4 and a half hours from now)

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Black, is the lack of contribution something you expect that comes exclusively from scum?

I understand what Shea is doing towards me, but I don't seem to get why do you want more from me in particular

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What I mean is: I know I'm being scummy, so I get that I can get scumreads in a superficial level. From what I've heard about you (and from what I've seen to this point), you're not a superficial player.

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Yes that’s what I mean when I say that I understand getting scumread, but from you in particular seems like hiding behind an easy scumread instead of actually trying to solve a difficult slot

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From other games I’ve read with you on it, you seem to be more up to the challenge

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From other games I’ve read with you on it, you seem to be more up to the challenge

Which one comes to mind here? I'll be happy to explain the differences

Death Note

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I can't solve slots that aren't here. That's why I've been asking you for more

A slight scumread on a slot that isn’t here is taking a stance though

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To be less cryptic, Black, I’m not scumreading you. There’s a certain excitement towards you because you’re allegedly one of the best newbies this place has seen for a while. From what I have read, I understand the hype, but I want to get a grip on who will hide behind the “Black is so good” rethoric instead of trying to sort you directly. I think that if you are scum, your partners will eventually make it obvious, and if you’re scum, there will be pocketing involved. At this point I’m inclined to the latter, with a certain player in my mind trying to do the pocketing

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I can't solve slots that aren't here. That's why I've been asking you for more

A slight scumread on a slot that isn’t here is taking a stance though

I never said I wouldn't take a stance. I'm not sure where the confusion is here. I didn't like your entrance and I wanted to pressure you to do more stuff to make it easier to confirm/deny my read

Re: Death Note. Can you explain how I felt like I was "up to the challenge" of finding scum there but not here?

About Death Note and other games: to give a graphic explanation, in that game it seemed like you had multiple tabs open and processing everything at the same time, changing focus constantly, looking for the correct answer in a sea of alternatives.

Here you seem to have less processing power.

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There’s a certain excitement towards you because you’re allegedly one of the best newbies this place has seen for a while.

This is false. I think I'm really good at being scum but I have

a lot

of work to do with my town game

Your "a lot to work with my town game" it's still better that other newbies around, and my point is that people will be playing around you.

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Here you seem to have less processing power.

Blame T-Bone for starting the game on a Saturday - I was high all weekend

I can at least understand where your read is coming from now, thanks for providing that

And I think I understand where your read is coming too then: you have been providing a lot more than me with the same excuse I have. Seems to be you projecting on me, expecting that even if I don't have the time, I should have more presence.

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Keep in mind I didn't know you didn't have time for this game when I originally sus'd you.

But as I said, I expected that you would not come to the most superficial conclusion possible and point it out in the thread. What I mean is, "Pink Ball is not contributing, must be scum" is too superficial coming from a player that I expect more. Do you think the problem here is that my expectations are too high?

Anything else you want to talk about before you tell us what you think of other players?

I didn't say it directly before, but since we're both here right now: I think the player that is trying to pocket you is Titus.

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y'all just don't want the smoke and hassle of arguing with me on day 1

/in

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To be fair, I was trying to be scummier than I usually am to avoid getting night killed in that game

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To be fair, I was trying to be scummier than I usually am to avoid getting night killed in that game

I mean, I was right for the wrong reasons anyway.

Thought exercise. Pretend I'm handing you a gun. You can use it right now. Who do you shoot?

Probably Klick

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What I mean is, "Pink Ball is not contributing, must be scum" is too superficial coming from a player that I expect more. Do you think the problem here is that my expectations are too high?

Well now that you've put it this way, I think the problem here is your interpretation of my read. Like obviously "Pink ball must be scum" is you paraphrasing me but I'm not convinced on your alignment at all. It's a slight scum lean that will likely correct itself if you start doing some townie stuff moving forward

Well this question is towards sorting you even when I said I wouldn’t focus on doing that initially:
Do you think that our interactions are consolidating said scumlean or are you starting to sway out of that read?

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Do you think that our interactions are consolidating said scumlean or are you starting to sway out of that read?

I don't really think it has changed tbh. I can see both wolf and town coming in and immediately responding to the suspicions and criticisms directly involving them. I'm wondering why you only seem to care about how Shea and I feel about you and not about the rest of the game but I don't really think it's AI yet

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't care how either of you feel about me. It just so happened that both of you were active when I had some spare time

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Oh don't get me wrong, I don't care how either of you feel about me.

Can you explain this? I care about how people read me when I'm town

As you said, I haven't provided anything to thread yet. Why would I care if people are reading me for my lack of contribution when I know that's going to change in the near future

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To be fair, I was trying to be scummier than I usually am to avoid getting night killed in that game

I mean, I was right for the wrong reasons anyway.

Thought exercise. Pretend I'm handing you a gun. You can use it right now. Who do you shoot?

Probably Klick

Sell it to me

It's more of a strategical use of a vig rather than an actual scumread, but three main points on why Klick is the strategical good shot:
1. I felt like Klick was pocketing me with this post:

This doesn't feel like a town anxiety ig.

Like i feel like a town mindset would be it's early so I'll just throw what i think out there and if it's underformed or not explained well that's fine.

It feels like a scum mindset to worry about whether ones reads are good enough or justified well enough.

Do you have examples of other games where you didn't post reads because you didn't really have time to explain them?

I can attest to having the described scum mindset often as town fwiw
It comes more from a place of feeling like I'll be ignored if I don't present my most pressing thoughts appropriately/just trying to find the most effective time and means of saying what I want to say

Klick being simpathetic with me is stronger than just calling me town.
2. He got rather defensive when Drixx pressured him about his content, explaining that he's on V/LA but excited to play this game. Either Klick thinks that Drixx is scum pushing him, or he felt the need to explain something that wasn't really required. If the former, how would you scumread someone so early (given that Drixx had only three posts at that moment)
3. Maybe the stronger point and why it's strategical and not an actual "I'll shoot scum tonight", Klick and Dunn are the only players I think I won't be able to sort out this game, so I would shoot between the two.

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I didn't say it directly before, but since we're both here right now: I think the player that is trying to pocket you is Titus.

What? She thinks I'm scum, isn't pocketing someone when you try to buddy them into thinking you're town? I'm not following

"Don't play the odds, play the man"

You don't pocket everyone the same way. People pocket me by being fun so I don't want them to die, for example.

Is antagonizing you making you think that Titus is scum? Or are you in a position where you have to prove yourself to her because she has stated that you remind her of herself when she started playing this game? Titus is scumreading you now, that doesn't mean that she will later in the game. She can slowly start agreeing with what you are saying and make it seem like a read that progressed with time. That's much more stronger than just saying "I agree with everything that Black has posted".

Maybe you don't feel this way; I think she attempted to do that, though. Win win scenario if done right, you are subverted to focus on how you look instead of how everyone else does, while unconsciously read Titus as town because of the progression between you two.

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@Pink Ball: Almost feels like Klick is trying to build an empire here

It's too early to tell, Klick is, after all, V/LA. But yes, I felt like I saw too many townreads and not too many scumreads. That's not inherently scummy: I usually do that as town to make scum angry since they don't like when town is being townread for bad reasoning

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if you want to scream at me I won't report you.

Just for old times sakes.

thanks but I've found that playing that way is incredibly stressful for me and not good for my mental health

and besides I'm in a better place in life anyway than I was in 2012 during the heyday of "FUCK YOU I'LL RIP YOUR FUCKING SOUL OUT AND WIPE MY ASS WITH IT AND PUT IT BACK IN YOU 1V1 ME RIGHT NOW YOU PIG FUCKING IDIOT" etc

As someone who has never been the one being insulted, I must say that your insults are a piece of art

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@Pink Ball: Almost feels like Klick is trying to build an empire here

It's too early to tell, Klick is, after all, V/LA. But yes, I felt like I saw too many townreads and not too many scumreads. That's not inherently scummy: I usually do that as town to make scum angry since they don't like when town is being townread for bad reasoning

Scum must really hate me then

You are adorable I don't think they are allowed to hate you

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Oh also this is prob too early but I’m gonna townread PB

See? Adorable

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They're definitely allowed to hate me. Sometimes town do.

I think you get much more undeserved heat than deserved

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I read it as "TSQ used my suspicion on him to try to sort someone else, I like that"

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Nothing will please you here so I'm just going to keep doing my thing

you are subverted to focus on how you look instead of how everyone else does

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VOTE: Klick

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Jingle says that it's possible to be multiball but not likely, since Amnesia mechanic is very slightly townsiding because scum can't actively hunt PRs since a role could reappear in the lategame. He says that multiball is explicitly an option since he suggested it as a solution to tiebreaks before the event.

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He expects 11:4 or 9:3:3, and if multiball, scum getting town power isn't nearly as bad for town as it is in singleball which is :slight: evidence towards multiball, but we both agree that it's more likely not multiball

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He expects 11:4 or 9:3:3, and if multiball, scum getting town power isn't nearly as bad for town as it is in singleball which is :slight: evidence towards multiball, but we both agree that it's more likely not multiball

That being said, if it is in fact multiball and we get confirmation of this later in the game, Firebringer expecting multiball could be because of his balance knowledge showing through unintentionally. Like in a game when an unexpected cult flip happens, you go looking for anyone who might have brought it up before the flip.

This is still Jingle talking mechanics. I think it's single ball and FB is town, no need to entertain this idea.

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9:3:3

Isn't that way too many mafia?

I don't know how balancing a multiball would look, but I guess a 9:2:2 makes less sense than a 9:4 and a 10:3:2 would be unfair unless the 2 have a lot of power, so the only answer to a balanced multiball would be a 9:3:3 with the scumteams having less power than town and having to catch the other scumteam too being the balance factor

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why are you even discussing about game being single/multi ball.

I agree, but Jingle is the mech man in my team and pointed that out

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I think talking about multi ball is a waste of time and effort but other than that I don't see much harm in it

Right now it is. If we ever get an unclaimed vigshot maybe we can go back to this

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It's not, that's the point...

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Unclaimed vig shot = two scumteams

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Titus started scumreading you and then justified said scumread with whatever she could find, rather than actually sort you and then concluding you're scum.

Do you resonate with this statement?

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Ok I didn't understand your case then, let me reread

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Hmmm I feel like you're taking Titus's hyperbolic way of talking at face value

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PB I feel like you still haven't actually given much in the way of reads despite being generally *around*

You are right, but it's because I used my spare time to write my thoughts behind the scenes in a beautiful manner

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I kinda liked your vote on Feysal

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Oh sorry TSQ I talked too quickly.

THAT I like

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Let StD cook

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Koba wanted me to tell their fans that they will be abstaining from active reading until later in the game 'cause the can't keep up with this game right now

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Agggh that yellow in mafsilver is killing me

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My initial townlean on Black, even when I wasn't planning it, has solidified into a townread

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You talkin' to me? @Shea

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@pink ball yes it was at you.

I will, but at this point Black has been pretty much contributing and the only times that she has been out of focus has been when either you or Titus call her scummy for not contributing, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy rather than the factual truth

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I told Black she looked way less "multi tasking" than her other town games, I don't feel that way anymore and realized that I was getting blindspotted via Titus and Shea

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@pink ball yes it was at you.

I will, but at this point Black has been pretty much contributing and the only times that she has been out of focus has been when either you or Titus call her scummy for not contributing, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy rather than the factual truth

Check out Black in ISO and then go back and see how it looks in comparison to the way the game is flowing. It LOOKS super opportunistic and reactionary. Also tally up Black's responses/questions by slot and see where she is and is not paying attention. It should be illuminating.

I told Black she looked way less "multi tasking" than her other town games, I don't feel that way anymore and realized that I was getting blindspotted via Titus and Shea

I haven't looked at any other games yet as I didn't want to spoil my initial impressions. If Black's play was organic, you would expect the distribution of engagement to look WAY different than it does.

I've been constantly reading the game so I've seen Black's posts in a live action manner, maybe that's why we disagree here? I understand the 'opportunistic' vibe but to me it's explained because Black has been engaging the game constantly with whoever is active at the time and both Titus and Shea had spikes of activity and their main focus was Black, so she had to interact a lot about her own slot instead of focusing on other things.

I think there is merit in solving this puzzle though, especially if Titus ends being town and me recognizing that would be huge, so I'll have to reread. Right now I'm building my scumcase on DragonEater though.

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So if your impression that Black is responding organically to people as they post is correct, the # of posts at/about each slot should show a pretty strong correlation to the activity of each slot. But it doesn't

I can do the excersise of looking at timestamps of every Black post and see that her interactions correlates with the timestamps that are closer to her own posts rather than talking to and with everyone to prove that what I'm saying suites better how Black has been approaching the game than what you're implying, but I would love to NOT have to do that excersise

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@Black you had ONE bad town game and now you lack conviction? That seems convenient, you have to admit

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In that game I townread 3 of the 4 scum very heavily. You don't think that would cause me to have a little less conviction moving forward?

I was talking about this

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I'll try and do this sometime today. I'm at work now until midnight, so no promises.

If you do it, I'll do it to some extent too then, I don't want you to do all the work and then answer you "oh ok that's how it felt sorry"

I still think it's weird how known town games have a reproduced pattern of interaction and this one differs.

You have read a lot more than me then and I'm starting to question if that's what's needs to be done to solve Black or not. I mean, I agree with her, they are pointing her too much based on meta. Meta of a newbie.

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In that game I townread 3 of the 4 scum very heavily. You don't think that would cause me to have a little less conviction moving forward?

I was talking about this

Yes, and I'm telling you that wasn't my only bad town game. All 3 of my town games on this site involved me playing pretty poorly up until the late game

Oh you were saying that being only ONE game was wrong, got it

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To be even more clear about Black: it doesn't feel like Black's frustration is coming from being correctly scumread. Quite the opposite.

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slapped together a quick program

This explains everything, thank you, I was getting paranoid on how fast you were processing information

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@Black are you restraining yourself from tunneling on purpose? If so, who would you be tunneling right now?

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@Black are you restraining yourself from tunneling on purpose? If so, who would you be tunneling right now?

I don't think so? I think this change has already developed within my playstyle to the point where I'm catching it subconsciously. But then again I don't think anyone has been scummy enough to tunnel, so I'm not sure

Had to ask. It's not happening to me, but maybe people who have read your meta have this feeling not that you're doing something different, but that you feel disingenuous in this game and that would be true if you're actually restraining yourself.

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1000 boom

Masterpiece post

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make scum angry since they don't like when town is being townread for bad reasoning

That's the correct way of playing as town @StD so keep doing it

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I told you how you can help me find a town read on you and it involves sharing thoughts in depth on the parts of the game that I feel like you've been ignoring and actually feeling like you care. You can start with firebringer vs feysal vs dragoneater, your choice.

Shea I haven't commented about our first engagement and the subsequent post you made about my lack of engagement, but I felt at that point that you were pushing for LhF rather than actually wanting to solve be. Now that I've seen how you've pushed Black, I believe that you are actually trying to solve, but the way you do it gives no space to the players to develop and you tend to scumread said players. I don't know if that's you making those players look scummier or a bias you have; I'm more inclined to the latter right now. If that's true, maybe giving Black some space is the right course of action right now if you actually want to get a grasp on her alignment, rather than keep pushing and pushing.

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wanting to solve be

To solve me*

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Do you really think I would conceive of your slot as low hanging fruit? That doesn't feel like a real thought you would have?

I don't recall having played together before this game. You thinking that you could start a wagon on me when I was being underwhelming is not a long shot, is it?

As for black I am explicitly already giving her space now.

Maybe I missed it but good to know. Are you thinking of focusing in something or someone in particular right now?

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We haven't played together, no. But I know who you are and we've interacted a bit in site ideas.

I also don't think my scum game really involves much going for low hanging fruit in the early game and I struggle to see why that would be a reason to scum read someone. Like what do you think my motivation would be? Just start a wagon on you and hope you never post?

No yeah I know we know each other, but I think the mafia realm is a whole different thing so believing that I could be LhF is not something outside of the box.

More than actually hoping that I never post, it is a good strategy to jump on someone that's being underwhelming to subvert them and get them in a position where they'll continue to be underwhelming even if they try to get outside of that.

This could be me projecting my own old meta where I used to jump eagerly into games being funny and trying to be friendly only to find people scumreading me and not being able to contribute at all after that, bear in mind. But my initial thought about your approach on my slot didn't feel like that, it felt like what I described early in this post: subverting me to leave me out of the game early.

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I have another reason to be paranoid about that early interaction with you that it's too 'paranoiay' even for me but I can talk about it if needed.

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Do you think you've continued to be underwelming?

No, I don't think so anymore. I haven't given a wide spectacle of my reads but I'm doing that on purpose now, but there other ways of contributing and I'm doing it

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Hah it's funny that you're asking that. No, I wouldn't describe my town game as that, but I am absolutely aiming for that in this particular game, because of my last TM game, on 2021

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I have another reason to be paranoid about that early interaction with you that it's too 'paranoiay' even for me but I can talk about it if needed.

And my last TM game is what I was talking back here

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VOTE: feysal

but i'm also willing to vote frozen angel :thumbs up emoji:

VOTE: Frozen angel

but i'm also willing to vote feysal :thumbs up emoji:

This is the quality content I subscribed for

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i am here for live chat for 30 minutes

How are you doing? I’ve never in my time here seen you post saying you’re having a difficult time

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Difficult time with what. My personal life?

I meant this:

Need to take a breather.

I can't recall you bringing personal life into a game, so I thought for you to post this it had to be difficult times. But good to know you're doing fine!

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I figured it best to get into the NAI stuff here just in case.

Spoiler: What's going on with me

In late March I went to the ER for some scary symptoms. They ran tests and found only a chest defect I was told was cosmetic. It wasn't. The defect symptoms can, but don't always, get worse as people age.

I struggle with breathing and focusing sometimes. For a minute or two I get occasional blood oxygen crashes that immediately come back up.

The main fix is surgery. I am having my first meeting May 10th. Post surgery I should have a fair amount of mafia time as well. I am playing as a distraction. I am not subbing out. I am not auto town or auto scum for this. It's just setting expectations.

I may VLA and post at the time of surgery. My health is up in the air. Vanishing at any point is NAI.

Spoiler: OOG

If by any chance getting stressed out worsen the symptoms, please tell us if you start feeling this way. This a game after all, your health is a priority. Hope everything works out!

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I started this game based on a Koba's readlist 'cause I had no time to play and both Jingle and Koba covered me those days. I decided not to post their reads until I had my own to try to understand where they were coming from. Even when they're a little outdated, Koba confirmed me that their reads haven't changed that much, and they made it through categories (or tiers):

1st: DragonEater, Firebringer
2nd: Dunn, TSQ, Feysal, BlueSnake, Kuribo, Black
3rd: GiF, Titus, Klick
Haven't posted (and why I said this is outdated: Drixx, StD, FA

1st tier never vote on D1, 2nd tier a little volatile but feels god about those slots and kuribo is there only because of lack of content but could go up soon. About the 3rd tier, DK said Klick is a pretty good wagon to pursue because they seem pretty flaccid and not exuding any of their towniness.

About said reads and opinions, I think the Klick one has its merits, but I think it's a bit unfair because Klick was V/LA at that moment. Since this is not the case anymore, I think that opinion is getting more valid, but I think if Klick becomes a pretty obvtown slot, giving them space should be the right course of action. Also I fully disagree with DragonEater being so high and the first thing I did was vote him lol. Also wanted to note something that caught up my attention: as soon as Koba posted this, Jingle saw that FA hasn't posted and said that as far as he remembers, she's a chronic lurker as scum so watch out about that (I haven't seen if FA's activity spiked after getting pressure or if she has actually been part of the game the entire time, I can check later)

Now, this is where I'm at right now (brace yourselves):

Black

(Good in Plaid)

I've stated my reasons and I think I've spent most of the time talking about this slot even when I promised myself I would let the rest of the playerlist's interactions with her to let me get a clear view of what I'm dealing here, but the newest motive on why Black is town is because of her frustration. That feeling was genuine, so if you're having doubts, go on and read that part of her ISO. That frustration can come either from town being exhausted for being constantly accused of under delivering and not letting her do her thing, or from a scum newbie frustrated for being correctly scumread in a game where stakes are higher than what she's used to. I'm inclined to the former given the rest of what I've seen and for my own interactions with her.
Townread

BlueSnakelet

(Whimsical Activities)

What is you doing
Scumlean

DragonEater70

(Pork Eaters)

Pretty much obvscum at this point
Scumread

Drixx

(We Don’t Mafia)

Very much a tone read, liked his interactions with StD, being openly antagonizing with very few posts on his back, not afraid of engaging, and the way he's approaching the game, relying on data and pushing vigorously his own reads, like, he conquered a space inside the game when he was very much out of it.
Townread

Dunnstral

(Polymewl)

I liked his early game, the 1v1 with Firebringer makes no sense from a scum perspective if you know how Firebringer plays the game unless they are both scum; I think scum!Dunnstral knows that he loses against town!Firebringer in a 1v1 simply because of charisma, so why start the game in that position? Can't fully townread him tho, 'cause after that I haven't seen anything interesting coming from him and I could be wrong about my first perception; scum!Dunn could've decided to leave the thread a little bit to let off the steam and come back later when the focus has changed.
Townlean

Feysal

(Ancient Guard)

Since it's a large game, I can't focus on everything or everyone at the same time. This one I haven't read any single post because of how they are written.
Null

Firebringer

(Perfectly Balanced)

Biggest townread in the game.
Townread

Frozen Angel

(Shadow Syndicate)

I tried to read some of her posts and I don't get what she's trying to achieve with them so I threw her in the same bin as Feysal 'cause I started scumreading her for her playstyle rather than her content.
Null

GuyInFreezer

(Average ™ Enjoyers)

Vibing.
Townlean

Klick

(Klickin’ Chickens)

Not vibing.
Scumread

Kuribo

(Ghosts of NKs)

He hasn't done much, but he acknowledged that when he questioned Klick's townread on him, which is like, if you're scum just take the W and shut up lol I liked our back and forth talking about Klick and he's scumreading my main scumread so vibing too.
Townread

Pink Ball

(Jingle Ballers)

Pretty much obvtown at this point.
Yours Trully

Save the Dragons

(Studies Show)

Hard vibing, I'm a sucker for this kind of playstyle, keep going.
Townread

Thestatusquo

(Frog Friends)

I feel like Shea felt into a spiral and doesn't know how to come out of it. Scum would know how to do it 'cause they would be more self aware.
Townlean

Titus

(Crispy Cream Puffs)

I changed this one 'cause it was relying too much on my read on Black and I'm following my own advice of not doing pre flip associations, especially on D1. I liked her response to my wacky theory; instead of giving it merit or jumping on it, just saying "holy conspiracy Batman" was the right answer. And well, she has been consistent with her read on Black, so my theory about pocketing makes no sense anymore. Even if I tried to keep pushing the idea of "well I left her without alternatives because if she backed down she would confirm my theory" is giving myself too much merit and the simplest explanation is that Titus is actually scumreading Black and there's nothing else behind that.
Townlean

I've deliberately left any explanations about my scumleans/reads 'cause I'll be talking about them later.
Assume I'm never voting my townreads today unless something extraordinary happens.
I'm not voting my townleans either unless there's no other alternative.
I'm voting my nulls if there's a wagon on them and I like the composition.
I'm voting my scumreads and scumleans even if there's no wagon on them. Assume that my vote is on either of them at any time in case any wagon forms.

[Pink Ball]

the knicks

You've been upgraded to townread

[Pink Ball]

i am actually very curious at where dragoneater is at this point in the game.

The scum PT, he hasn't realized that's not the main thread

[Pink Ball]

VOTE: DragonEater

[Pink Ball]

I do know that if she's town and she has her head in the game, she will mercilessly corner and attack her scumreads

Thank you for this, both me and Mena were considering that Titus was going for a "pick a slot and tunnel" approach as scum, but I had a small but lingering feeling that this was something Titus would do much more as town than scum

[Pink Ball]

About the 3rd tier, DK said Klick is a pretty good wagon to pursue because they seem pretty flaccid and not exuding any of their towniness.

I don’t think 'exuding towniness' on Day 1 is particularly a tenet of my town game. Ask Koba if they can remember a Day 1 where I was obvious town. The only experiences I can remember with them as town are in games where they repeatedly called me likely scum until they died.

On the other hand, 'flaccid' is a good description of most D1s from me. Particularly in Larges. Koba is probably using Hollow Knight as a recent reference, but that's an exception and not the norm.

I'll ping them and when they answer I'll talk about my own take on this too

[Pink Ball]

About the 3rd tier, DK said Klick is a pretty good wagon to pursue because they seem pretty flaccid and not exuding any of their towniness.

I don’t think 'exuding towniness' on Day 1 is particularly a tenet of my town game. Ask Koba if they can remember a Day 1 where I was obvious town. The only experiences I can remember with them as town are in games where they repeatedly called me likely scum until they died.

On the other hand, 'flaccid' is a good description of most D1s from me. Particularly in Larges. Koba is probably using Hollow Knight as a recent reference, but that's an exception and not the norm.

I'll ping them and when they answer I'll talk about my own take on this too

They replied "L+ratio" which I don't know what means but I assume is a meme

(they're busy right now and haven't read the question so you'll have to wait)

[Pink Ball]

I'm not comfortable with FA's wagon

[Pink Ball]

I'm not comfortable with FA's wagon

Why not? I think I agree with Klick's "soulless" read but I'm not sure if that's FA's natural tone or if it's AI

I should probably ISO FA today too. ugh

I have only read her last posts, the ones after my readlist, and I think the way she approached each ISO was benign

[Pink Ball]

i do feel like dragoneater was half the posts in the weird dreams game and here he is noticeably absent

It appears Dragon has siteflaked. I don't think we can view this absence as AI

If you're going to say this, at least acknowledging that he was around 8 hours later since his last post here would be less disingenuous

[Pink Ball]

Wait so you're not comfortable with her wagon but you haven't even read all of her posts yet?

That's what I said, yes. You just added a question mark

[Pink Ball]

What? I don't understand what you're saying here

You're arguing that Dragon's absence is NAI because he siteflaked, but you left out the fact that his last post here was 8 hours before he siteflaked

[Pink Ball]

This just seems like a weird thought process to have. I feel like the normal thing to do here is to go read the rest of FA's posts to see if you can understand where the wagon is coming from instead of just blindly discrediting it

I didn't discredit the wagon, I said I'm uncomfortable with it, meaning that I'm not planning on joining it. Something that FA posted caught my attention, I don't need to read her ISO to make FA a lesser priority than other players

[Pink Ball]

I don't see how this matters in any way

- People start talking about Dragon's activity and how that could be scum indicative
- You say it's NAI because he siteflaked
- I'm saying your point is invalid because he siteflaked 8 hours after his last post here.

I'm saying that there's merit in analyzing Dragon's activity and that you shutting it down is bad.

[Pink Ball]

I didn't discredit the wagon, I said I'm uncomfortable with it, meaning that I'm not planning on joining it.

That's not the meaning I derived from that statement, but ok. I guess when I hear someone talk about being uncomfortable with a wagon I assume they don't like that the wagon is even a thing, not that they don't want to join it. Like I may not want to join FA's wagon yet but I like the pressure it is bringing and being able to see FA respond to said pressure is helpful. But I'll accept this explanation ig

I understand why the wagon formed, I'm ok with everyone who has voted her and I was willing to join, but now I have reasons to believe that the best course of action is to leave the slot alone for today

[Pink Ball]

reading into his activity after he has seemingly abandoned the site is not a good method to catch scum

Don't get me wrong, I agree with this. What I mean is, technically, he didn't abandon the site until later. He came back to the site and ignored this game.

[Pink Ball]

reading into his activity after he has seemingly abandoned the site is not a good method to catch scum

Don't get me wrong, I agree with this. What I mean is, technically, he didn't abandon the site until later. He came back to the site and ignored this game.

This is a weird technicality to argue, and you shading me over it has weird vibes

I'm not shading you... Could you start reading my posts without being so defensive?

[Pink Ball]

I'm not shading you... Could you start reading my posts without being so defensive?

Yeah, but I'm usually going to get a little defensive when I feel like someone is misrepping me. You made it sound like I was trying to shut down all conversation about Dragon's activity when all I was doing was pointing out that his absence isn't AI. You bringing up the fact that he was here 8 hours before he siteflaked doesn't change anything to me and I'm curious if it does for you

It doesn't, I'm scumreading DragonEater before this was brought up, and I want discussion about DragonEater to keep going and yes, your post felt like you were trying to shut down discussion about DragonEater as a whole.

[Pink Ball]

It doesn't, I'm scumreading DragonEater before this was brought up, and I want discussion about DragonEater to keep going and yes, your post felt like you were trying to shut down discussion about DragonEater as a whole.

I don't believe you believe this. I talked about Dragon a lot in my Fey Iso right before my siteflake post so I'm trying to understand why you interpreted this as me not wanting anyone to talk about the Dragon slot

Let me rephrase, I think I understand what's happening:
I don't believe you did it on purpose, but with your post you could shut down a conversation that was worth having.
I'm not talking about you or your intentions in particular, sorry, I said that it felt like that you were trying to do that but that's not what I thought.

[Pink Ball]

Don't these two statements contradict each other?

Yes:

I said that it felt like that you were trying to do that but that's not what I thought.

I'm not a native english speaker, this happens sometimes

[Pink Ball]

Don't these two statements contradict each other?

Yes:

I said that it felt like that you were trying to do that but that's not what I thought.

I'm not a native english speaker, this happens sometimes

@Black are we over this so we can focus in other things?

[Pink Ball]

I was trying to get away from your way but got caught in a meaningless discussion with Black, but I agree with you

[Pink Ball]

And then again, that yellow on mafsilver

[Pink Ball]

But I like that Klick thinks that I'm scummy

[Pink Ball]

Klick, what's your read on DragonEater?

[Pink Ball]

I've deliberately left any explanations about my scumleans/reads 'cause I'll be talking about them later.

[Pink Ball]

Yup

[Pink Ball]

I'm starting to see why people read you as opportunistic

[Pink Ball]

I'm just going to zone you out for a while, 'cause your lack of reevaluation about me is pretty damning and I'm not willing to give my whole attention to you during this day phase. I hope that's ok with you, maybe if we stop stomping each other's capes we'll be able to develop our reads on each other better

[Pink Ball]

page 2 SR

Not true, but keep going

[Pink Ball]

Hey, I got weird vibes from your slot before it was cool

lack of reevaluation

[Pink Ball]

he kinda got defensive

Hello pot, meet my friend, kettle

[Pink Ball]

I think I read people best by engaging with them and I'm not really liking what's coming from you

I do this too and I'm not liking what's coming from you either, that's what I'm saying

[Pink Ball]

Then he said I was trying to shut the conversation down and walked that back by saying I wasn't trying to do it on purpose?

I'm starting to get pissed with the constant misreps

[Pink Ball]

Hello pot, meet my friend, kettle

I'm on the offense here bro

You said I got defensive back then, I'm saying you got defensive back then, not now. I pointed out that technically what you were saying was wrong, you freaked out saying "why are you discrediting me"

[Pink Ball]

Didn't you upgrade me to a full townread recently?

Yes, and then we interacted today and nothing that has come out of you today has validated that townread

[Pink Ball]

This is pathetic

[Pink Ball]

Black, Koba is taking over your slot from now on. They're asking about your read on FB

[Pink Ball]

he seemed to be defensive over my SR

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't care how either of you feel about me.

Can you explain this? I care about how people read me when I'm town

As you said, I haven't provided anything to thread yet. Why would I care if people are reading me for my lack of contribution when I know that's going to change in the near future

As you said, I haven't provided anything to thread yet. Why would I care if people are reading me for my lack of contribution when I know that's going to change in the near future

That's fair

[Pink Ball]

Black, Koba is taking over your slot from now on. They're asking about your read on FB

Idk who Koba is but I feel like this is secondhand deflecting and trying to point the conversation in a different direction

No dude this is me getting frustrated, going to discord and seeing that a teammate noted that I was getting frustrated and offered a hand. Fuck off with your assumptions towards my intentions for a minute

[Pink Ball]

Like if PB/Koba gave me a strong townread

2nd: Dunn, TSQ, Feysal, BlueSnake, Kuribo, Black

You're the lowest 2nd tier read from Koba, they're not townreading you and part of why they offered taking your slot over

[Pink Ball]

FB is barely here right now due to IRL stuff and I get townvibes from him. I'm not really concerned about FB at the moment and the only reason this Koba character would want me to dive into that right now is to get me off of scum!PB

You're deflecting the question

[Pink Ball]

This is you skipping over some of the parts I read as defensive. I hope you don't get offended that I read it that way btw. I don't think I've said you were defensive, just that you seemed that way

You're bringing shit back demonstrating that you never actually reevaluated and read what we were talking about. I said I didn't care about your read on me, you asked why, I answered, you said "fair". Now you're bringing it back like this exchange never happened

[Pink Ball]

You're deflecting the question

It is a sign that you don't seem to care about people's alignments and just be here, live posting. The deflection of the question is suspicious as we think that you're stalling because you know exactly what Koba meant by their question. They didn't ask you to dive on FB's ISO, they were just asking what your read on FB was.
Koba is scumreading you, but they say your entitlement could be townie in a twisted way

[Pink Ball]

I agree black deflected the question but I also agree that koba asking about FB is kinda weird

Koba saw something in particular in Black's ISO that really made them want to know her read on FB

[Pink Ball]

I don't think PB's Dragon SR is valid

Black, do you want to have some fun?

[Pink Ball]

You can always be a nice fella and answer a question when is being asked instead of being cheeky, that's a you problem, not Koba's

[Pink Ball]

I don't think PB's Dragon SR is valid

Black, do you want to have some fun?

No, I'm literally about to walk out the door lol. I will be having fun tonight though so thanks for asking <3

If you actually want to learn how to play town, learn how to identify when someone's approach to this game can be different than yours and be town too.
Read this if you're actually sorting me and if you have the time

[Pink Ball]

Now let me do my fucking thing in the background. Peace, I'm going to work out

[Pink Ball]

Thanks for acknowledging that you're being and asshole towards me, everything makes much more sense now. Have a good one

[Pink Ball]

Thanks for acknowledging that you're being and asshole towards me, everything makes much more sense now. Have a good one

I've been nothing but respectful to you. I would really like that in return, please

[Pink Ball]

Wait... Black, what did you meant with that emoji

[Pink Ball]

Pink Ball I feel you are being rude when it isn't really called for

I agree, I had a pretty rough day and realized it now that I blew some steam

I’m sorry Black.

[Pink Ball]

Hi FB

[Pink Ball]

Just jumped out of the shower and had something to eat

[Pink Ball]

I'm up for shitposting a little

[Pink Ball]

I'm up for shitposting a little

but if u start shitposting now u will have to jump back in...

It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for the sake of the shitposting

[Pink Ball]

There's no point of keep waiting for DragonEater 'cause it's pretty much obvious that he will be replaced, so this is what I was doing behind the scenes. The idea was to see how DragonEater reacted to someone blindly scumreading him since it was a nice contrast to the early townreads he got.

Me and DragonEater recently finished a large game together: Demon Slayer, modded by Frozen Angel. In that game, we were both town. Scum fucked us over by dominating the thread and making it insufferable to catch up and read, multiposting, being present, fluffing, shitposting, the works. When the game ended, the concensus was that playing like that is anti town at best and scummy as fuck at worst.

DragonEater's very first post in this game was voting Firebringer on the very begining of page 2, calling him out for being scummy because of roleplaying, saying later that we needed to get out of RVS and it reminded him of the Demon Slayer game, were Firebringer was part of the scumteam. DragonEater then said that this game has similarities in both games on the playerlist, which is true: DragonEater, Pink Ball, Black, Firebringer, Frozen Angel (mod), BlueSnakelet and GiF (and Klick to some extent although I don't know how much they contributed to the Klickwork hydra), and some other players indirectly via teammates (like Ali who was scum that game too and DragonEater acted like he didn't know that Ali could be reading this but the next post acknowledged that this is team mafia.

I think DragonEater saw a chance to get early townread by doing exactly what the concesus was on our last game: don't let scum to dominate the thread with excessive noise. LAMIST, as pro gamers call it. He then acted surprised for being townread, and based on what I've said, to me it looked like a fake reaction. He knew what he was doing, so he knew he would be townread for doing it, but had to act surprised to avoid being called out for being LAMIST.

But maybe I'm being paranoid, maybe DragonEater is used to being called scum early game and this was a genuine reaction, as Shea pointed out.
I decided to metaread DragonEater to see what his town games look like, and use some data driven analysis to see how scummy he is in his towngames vs how scummy he could be being actual scum.

Let's see some similarities between every game:

1. Confidence in his reads/pushes:

I'll start with my own experience with DragonEater on our last game together: Demon Slayer. There are two things that exhude confidence, which is a synonym of actually believing what you're doing and not having to fake it because you know you're wrong: the first is not caring how you look like in the process, and the second is to actively push what you believe. [post/13707547]This post[/post] is a good example of both points: he actually used the word confident here, he doesn't care to say that it's just a gutread, but says that that's good enough for him. He backed off in the very next post of him and he got scumread for it because it was weird that he reevaluated so fast, but the reason why he got called out was because he looked like he tried to show confidence when he really wasn't, proving that confidence is a townie trait that good scumplayers know how to replicate (and why chosing to tunnel a random player is a common strategy). He then started pushing Blue, interacting with everyone who voted him, asking people why they didn't want to vote him, and even voting for him at the end of D2 even when he had a soft guilty on Klickwork.

In Weird Dreams Mafia v1, he approached his reads via ISOing players From post 430 onwards, but the most important read he has is explained on post 445:

Top town read is you. While a lot of people feel townie here and like they are trying to solve, I can say with confidence that you are not TRYING. You are SOLVING. Your investigations are very on point and you have a keen perception of small details (but you don't latch into random NAI stuff)

Confidence is, once again, the key word here.

In Newbie 2114, we have an interesting post:

On the same topic: I'm currently voting you because, whilst I still think it's within your meta to be hesitant, I really don't like that you don't have any scumreads or anyone you pushing (though tbh I also don't have very strong scumreads this game so IDK).
I would love to see you ISO me and others because I want to hear more from you regarding suspicions and so on.

We can see here that DragonEater actually agrees with my point, that the lack of confidence is something scummy to point out. And his own level of confidence is such that he even acknowledges that his being and hypocrite, but that doesn't mean he's not right.

Newbie 2112 is his first game here and I didn't find anything in particular to say about confidence, but his ISO is interesting enough to give it a read; in this post, he describes his own playstyle, in which he says that he likes having strong reads on people which I agree, he does in every game I've read with him that's how he approach games.

Every game except this one. Look at post 243 for instance:

For realz though, from this whole interaction I kinda townread Shea as well I think? Titus is null-town, I guess?
Like there hasn't been enough content from anyone for me to feel confident committing to a townread, but this is what I have so far.

Or this:

I just read those posts, and I actually disagree, those questions are soooo meh it kinda feels like scum blending in.

Or this:

It is kinda weird that Klick gave like 4 townreads with minimal explanation and no scumreads. It feels very easy to fake, I guess. And none of their posts really stood out for me at the start.

I found similarities in these three posts that I couldn't find in ANY of his posts of 4 other games:

I think?

,

I guess?

,

kinda feels

,

kinda weird

,

I guess

. The way this posts are composed, all exhude the opposite of confidence, from a player who not only usually exhudes confidence as town, but also townreads other players who are confident and scumreads players who are hesitating/fencesitting. It is fencesitting. And it's a case of someone who projects his own way of playing into others, calling scum whoever plays like he plays when he's scum.

2. Analysis over stating facts:

In this part, instead of just quoting every single post that express analysis from his other games, let's just see what's going on in here and how many times he has given legit analysis out of the 51 posts he has. While he has given analysis in posts like here, here and here it feels more like justifying his scumreads to not look scummy rather than actually contributing to solve this slots, while his townreads (stated in here, here and here) have no analysis whatsoever which gives him the space needed to retarget, like when he voted Titus, an alleged null-town (

I think?

) here based ond Dunn's analysis, not his. The rest of his posts? Talking about himself on how he's being townread, how he is usually limbait on D1 (here and here), being 483 particularly good to understand what DragonEater is doing here: making the statement "DragonEater is being townread" on the top of mind of everyone, and shutting down whoever is scumreading him by calling himself "limbait".

DragonEater knows that he's limbaity, that's a fact. So now that he's actually scum, he needed to get rid of that image ASAP so he didn't get wagoned in early game. So instead of actually doing what makes him townie when he's town, that is, acknowledging that he's scummy as town but providing analysis and taking effort on solving the game, he focused on maintaining his townread status and left any analysis out. He's not solving the game as he usually does; he's worried on how he looks and how he's positioned in the game. I think the only post that replicates his town games is this one, but the analysis is poor enough to disregard it and, again, the "I guess" kills the confident vibe.

Is this common behaviour from DragonEater? Not at all. He talks about himself here and there, but much less in proportion. 15 out of 51 posts in this game are about himself and how everyone perceives him, town or scum. Using just the 50 first posts in his towngames to make it a fair comparison:

Demon Slayer: 5 out of 50 posts talking about how he's being perceived
Dreams v1: 2 out of 50
Newbie 2114: 4 out of 50
Newbie 2112: 8 out of 50

For a player who says sees his own playstyle like "liking to attract attention early", the way he does it as town is by interacting with people who start engaging with him, but actually talk about other reads and trying to sort out what's going on through the other player's mind, while in here the way he has attracted attention is by being weird about being townread in early game and not actually questioning why (only once, I believe, when he asked GiF why he was townreading him).

3. Fluff/comfortability:

Kinda overlaps a little with the two previous points because being confident and giving analysis even when you're being called scum is being comfortable too, but there are a few things that have enough merit to make it a category of its own. First off, about fluff itself, in every single game from DragonEater I've seen at least one interaction that has nothing to do with solving the game. Leaving RVS posts out of the analysis, In Weird Dreams, we have this example; in Newbie 2114, this three posts talking about writing; in newbie 2112, this post talking about being obsessed with mafia which by the way DragonEater, if you ever read this: same; and in Demon Slayer, this post. In this game, the lack of this kind of posts/interactions pings hard, because, as I said earlier in this post, seems like DragonEater's posts are calculated rather than going with the flow of the game. The obsession of getting out of RVS and shutting down FB because of "PTSD from Dragon Slayer" contradicts his own way of playing and approaching games. Second point and much more important was brought by Feysal here. DragonEater's answer is fairly damning towards this point on how NOT comfortable he looks in this game, since he agrees that his playstyle in this game is particularly different. "I really don't know how you percieve me as being nervous, but I agree that I'm not playing like I usually do" is saying he disagrees first and then unintentionally validates the point.

Miscellaneous things that caught my attention while metadiving DragonEater:

1. In Weird Dreams Mafia v1, he said that it's easier for him to townhunt on early game than to scumhunt, and that makes sense from his town games where he starts throwing a bunch of townreads before really pushing his scumreads. In this game, however, he threw two early scumreads and not a single townread.

2. In both Dragon Slayer and Weird Dreams DragonEater talked or used RVS as a positive thing to start the game; in Dragon Slayer, he actually meta cased Furtive for how he was RVSing compared to other games, and in Weird Dreams, well, [post13685774]he explicitly talked about how he sees RVS as tool that he uses to get things going[/post]. He also gave and exhaustive explanation of how he understands RVS, how it has different phases and how it should be used and seen as town in this post. In this game, however, tried to move out of RVS as fast as he could when he got what he wanted. His vote on FB would qualify as, in his own words, a RVS Phase II vote, and the way he dealed with RVS this game looks like he didn't want this game to have an organical way to develop this 3 states, not letting the rest of the playerlist to actually develop valuable reads.

This game has nothing similar with his town games, and even DragonEater is justifying this by calling himself more relaxed than usual and not tryharding. I disagree, I feel like trying to look relaxed is how he decided to approach the game to avoid being scumread early game, which happens often, but this time it would be right. Using his own meta to validate this feeling, the lack of confidence and solveyness, the non existent analysis and excess self awareness, and the feeling that he's not comfortable in this game compared to other games, all points out that we're dealing with scum!DragonEater.

PS: Black, the reason why I wanted to shut you down was because I wanted to see how DragonEater interacted with what was being said about him, not you. Sorry for coming too harsh on you, I had a bad day and I saw your post as an impediment on getting more information out of DragonEater. It happened here, where Shea answered a question that was directed at DragonEater, and pinged me for interfering with my objective. The difference is that I wasn't an asshole to Shea and I was to you, so sorry again.

[Pink Ball]

Oh DragonEater is back, scratch the first line of my post

[Pink Ball]

I have similar posts for both Blue and Klick, but Blue's has no merit now that he's replacing out, and Klick's was the weakest of them all because I stopped analyzing when I realized I was reaching a lot towards a read that I was basing on what Koba said instead of what I actually felt, and right now I'm feeling much better about Klick

[Pink Ball]

There's no point of keep waiting for DragonEater 'cause it's pretty much obvious that he will be replaced, so this is what I was doing behind the scenes. The idea was to see how DragonEater reacted to someone blindly scumreading him since it was a nice contrast to the early townreads he got.

Wait what.

I wrote that line before going to lunch, reviewed the formatting of the post and then submitted without realizing you were back, sorry! Glad to see you back

[Pink Ball]

You mean your whole push on me was an experiment?
Do you expect me to believe this?

Are you kidding me right?

[Pink Ball]

Sure, that's the main point of the whole post, it was a prank bro

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What is that supposed to mean?

It means that the early blank vote on you without explanation was to see what else you would do, but I was already scumreading you for how you entered the game, and furthered my scumread with the rest of what you did.

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that you wanted to see how Dragon responded to people talking about him

Read the whole post and not only the first paragraph

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especially scum backed into a corner

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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I’m officially out for the day. The least I need right now is interacting with Black again

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I didn’t say you are faking confidence this game. Read the damn post

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“Maybe I’m being paranoid, I’ll read DragonEater’s town games to see if he plays like this as town. Oh he doesn’t, he is scum all right”

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I didn’t say you are faking confidence this game. Read the damn post

Replying while reading, sorry.

Ohhhh… sorry, keep going

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Did I fuck up every single post tag?

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@Black, why is PB backed into a corner?

He's not really if he's town. But if he's scum then I can see a situation where, in the span of 16 hours, getting 3 votes and a few others calling your interaction weird could prompt him to buckle up and put in his best town effort

I'm not saying he's backed into a corner. I'm saying it could be interpreted that way if he's scum

Black, with love: your interpretation is ass.

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Black: “I’m less confident about my towngame because I tend to tunnel and townread scum”
Also Black: *proceeds to tunnel*

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I found similarities in these three posts that I couldn't find in ANY of his posts of 4 other games: I think?
, I guess?
, kinda feels
, kinda weird
, I guess,

Lies:

From Weird Dreams Mafia:

Their posts feel kinda fake, like theatre, you know? Like, (snip)

Kinda reads like scum trying to make a town-sounding post and deciding to post about nothing.

Okay I kinda like Porkens now

I think this is possibly townie? I could see scum being frustrated here as well, but the frustration is actually geniune and I kinda get how Enchant feels here.

From Newbie 2114:

I feel they are also very uncontributive but it kinda feels within their meta

IDK guys, this post kinda feels like Elpis is trying to overplay how newbie they are

The way this posts are composed, all exhude the opposite of confidence,

from a player who not only usually exhudes confidence as town

, but also townreads other players who are confident and

scumreads players who are hesitating

/fencesitting. It is fencesitting. And it's a case of someone who projects his own way of playing into others,

calling scum whoever plays like he plays when he's scum.

I do? thanks for the compliment, I guess.

And that means that if I ever hesitate, I am scum?

That's wild! You've never seen me play as scum. I exude confidence even more when I am scum. Trust me

About your first point, I think that the proportionality matters, using the word “kinda” once in a game with 200 posts vs using the word “kinda” 4 times in 50 posts says something. You’re discrediting a valid point via “well achtually”

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I can see a situation where, in the span of 16 hours, getting 3 votes and a few others calling your interaction weird could prompt him to buckle up and put in his best town effort

Remember when you were constantly calling me underwhelming or something along those lines, like here?

PB had an excuse for yesterday but I agree that if we don't get something today things will get a little unholy in here

I was writing that wallpost during that day, and decided not to post it because 1. there were other conversations going around that were good enough not to derail them, and 2. I wanted to see if DragonEater posted a little more before to see what he would do.

I don't feel fucking pressured by three posts in which 1 is from the player I'm scumreading (and that I didn't know he was actually back and voting me), one from a player who has been a constant pain in the ass and one from a player that had a good reason to vote me.

I don't build a post like that in 16 hours, in which 7 of them I was sleeping, 1 of them I was in a car and the other 8 I was (am) at the office. I don't play mafia at the office because I can't, actually, because I'm a fucking functional human with work to do.

Your conclusion is so reachy it's actually ridiculous at this point that you actually believe what you're saying and this is not a fake tunnel composed to derail attention on a caught partner.

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Black thinks that you are mafia... they aren't personally attacking you.

We are playing mafia, it's a game based on actually reading and understanding what the other is saying in order to replicate the live experience of playing it. What Black has been doing to me since yesterday is like or, to word it better, what Black makes me feel with her interactions with me is that, any time I open my mouth, she cover her ears and then say that what I said is scummy. That feels like a personal attack, and I have said a couple of times now that I don't want to interact with her anymore but she keeps coming

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So yes, yesterday I apologized for being an asshole, I apologized again at the end of my humungous post, but now it's not on me. I'm not even being an ass, I'm not calling her names, I'm saying that her read on me is atrocious and I'd rather not talk to her anymore before things escalate

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And what's up with the whiteknighting Dunny boy? Will you come and tell me "watch your profanity" anytime I get a little heated? I don't remember you being like this at all. Are you trying to achieve something more than just descaling something? Because to me it hasn't escalated enough, not even yesterday.

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Spoiler: humongous post once again, but with the post tags fixed. Sorry!

There's no point of keep waiting for DragonEater 'cause it's pretty much obvious that he will be replaced, so this is what I was doing behind the scenes. The idea was to see how DragonEater reacted to someone blindly scumreading him since it was a nice contrast to the early townreads he got.

Me and DragonEater recently finished a large game together: Demon Slayer, modded by Frozen Angel. In that game, we were both town. Scum fucked us over by dominating the thread and making it insufferable to catch up and read, multiposting, being present, fluffing, shitposting, the works. When the game ended, the concensus was that playing like that is anti town at best and scummy as fuck at worst.

DragonEater's very first post in this game was voting Firebringer on the very begining of page 2, calling him out for being scummy because of roleplaying, saying later that we needed to get out of RVS and it reminded him of the Demon Slayer game, were Firebringer was part of the scumteam. DragonEater then said that this game has similarities in both games on the playerlist, which is true: DragonEater, Pink Ball, Black, Firebringer, Frozen Angel (mod), BlueSnakelet and GiF (and Klick to some extent although I don't know how much they contributed to the Klickwork hydra), and some other players indirectly via teammates (like Ali who was scum that game too and DragonEater acted like he didn't know that Ali could be reading this but the next post acknowledged that this is team mafia.

I think DragonEater saw a chance to get early townread by doing exactly what the concesus was on our last game: don't let scum to dominate the thread with excessive noise. LAMIST, as pro gamers call it. He then acted surprised for being townread, and based on what I've said, to me it looked like a fake reaction. He knew what he was doing, so he knew he would be townread for doing it, but had to act surprised to avoid being called out for being LAMIST.

But maybe I'm being paranoid, maybe DragonEater is used to being called scum early game and this was a genuine reaction, as Shea pointed out.
I decided to metaread DragonEater to see what his town games look like, and use some data driven analysis to see how scummy he is in his towngames vs how scummy he could be being actual scum.

Let's see some similarities between every game:

1. Confidence in his reads/pushes:

I'll start with my own experience with DragonEater on our last game together: Demon Slayer. There are two things that exhude confidence, which is a synonym of actually believing what you're doing and not having to fake it because you know you're wrong: the first is not caring how you look like in the process, and the second is to actively push what you believe. This post is a good example of both points: he actually used the word confident here, he doesn't care to say that it's just a gutread, but says that that's good enough for him. He backed off in the very next post of him and he got scumread for it because it was weird that he reevaluated so fast, but the reason why he got called out was because he looked like he tried to show confidence when he really wasn't, proving that confidence is a townie trait that good scumplayers know how to replicate (and why chosing to tunnel a random player is a common strategy). He then started pushing Blue, interacting with everyone who voted him, asking people why they didn't want to vote him, and even voting for him at the end of D2 even when he had a soft guilty on Klickwork.

In Weird Dreams Mafia v1, he approached his reads via ISOing players From post 430 onwards, but the most important read he has is explained on post 445:

Top town read is you. While a lot of people feel townie here and like they are trying to solve, I can say with confidence that you are not TRYING. You are SOLVING. Your investigations are very on point and you have a keen perception of small details (but you don't latch into random NAI stuff)

Confidence is, once again, the key word here.

In Newbie 2114, we have an interesting post:

On the same topic: I'm currently voting you because, whilst I still think it's within your meta to be hesitant, I really don't like that you don't have any scumreads or anyone you pushing (though tbh I also don't have very strong scumreads this game so IDK).
I would love to see you ISO me and others because I want to hear more from you regarding suspicions and so on.

We can see here that DragonEater actually agrees with my point, that the lack of confidence is something scummy to point out. And his own level of confidence is such that he even acknowledges that his being and hypocrite, but that doesn't mean he's not right.

Newbie 2112 is his first game here and I didn't find anything in particular to say about confidence, but his ISO is interesting enough to give it a read; in this post, he describes his own playstyle, in which he says that he likes having strong reads on people which I agree, he does in every game I've read with him that's how he approach games.

Every game except this one. Look at post 243 for instance:

For realz though, from this whole interaction I kinda townread Shea as well I think? Titus is null-town, I guess?
Like there hasn't been enough content from anyone for me to feel confident committing to a townread, but this is what I have so far.

Or this:

I just read those posts, and I actually disagree, those questions are soooo meh it kinda feels like scum blending in.

Or this:

It is kinda weird that Klick gave like 4 townreads with minimal explanation and no scumreads. It feels very easy to fake, I guess. And none of their posts really stood out for me at the start.

I found similarities in these three posts that I couldn't find in ANY of his posts of 4 other games:

I think?

,

I guess?

,

kinda feels

,

kinda weird

,

I guess

. The way this posts are composed, all exhude the opposite of confidence, from a player who not only usually exhudes confidence as town, but also townreads other players who are confident and scumreads players who are hesitating/fencesitting. It is fencesitting. And it's a case of someone who projects his own way of playing into others, calling scum whoever plays like he plays when he's scum.

2. Analysis over stating facts:

In this part, instead of just quoting every single post that express analysis from his other games, let's just see what's going on in here and how many times he has given legit analysis out of the 51 posts he has. While he has given analysis in posts like here, here and here it feels more like justifying his scumreads to not look scummy rather than actually contributing to solve this slots, while his townreads (stated in here, here and here) have no analysis whatsoever which gives him the space needed to retarget, like when he voted Titus, an alleged null-town (

I think?

) here based ond Dunn's analysis, not his. The rest of his posts? Talking about himself on how he's being townread, how he is usually limbait on D1 (here and here), being 483 particularly good to understand what DragonEater is doing here: making the statement "DragonEater is being townread" on the top of mind of everyone, and shutting down whoever is scumreading him by calling himself "limbait".

DragonEater knows that he's limbaity, that's a fact. So now that he's actually scum, he needed to get rid of that image ASAP so he didn't get wagoned in early game. So instead of actually doing what makes him townie when he's town, that is, acknowledging that he's scummy as town but providing analysis and taking effort on solving the game, he focused on maintaining his townread status and left any analysis out. He's not solving the game as he usually does; he's worried on how he looks and how he's positioned in the game. I think the only post that replicates his town games is this one, but the analysis is poor enough to disregard it and, again, the "I guess" kills the confident vibe.

Is this common behaviour from DragonEater? Not at all. He talks about himself here and there, but much less in proportion. 15 out of 51 posts in this game are about himself and how everyone perceives him, town or scum. Using just the 50 first posts in his towngames to make it a fair comparison:

Demon Slayer: 5 out of 50 posts talking about how he's being perceived
Dreams v1: 2 out of 50
Newbie 2114: 4 out of 50
Newbie 2112: 8 out of 50

For a player who says sees his own playstyle like "liking to attract attention early", the way he does it as town is by interacting with people who start engaging with him, but actually talk about other reads and trying to sort out what's going on through the other player's mind, while in here the way he has attracted attention is by being weird about being townread in early game and not actually questioning why (only once, I believe, when he asked GiF why he was townreading him).

3. Fluff/comfortability:

Kinda overlaps a little with the two previous points because being confident and giving analysis even when you're being called scum is being comfortable too, but there are a few things that have enough merit to make it a category of its own. First off, about fluff itself, in every single game from DragonEater I've seen at least one interaction that has nothing to do with solving the game. Leaving RVS posts out of the analysis, In Weird Dreams, we have this example; in Newbie 2114, this three posts talking about writing; in newbie 2112, this post talking about being obsessed with mafia which by the way DragonEater, if you ever read this: same; and in Demon Slayer, this post. In this game, the lack of this kind of posts/interactions pings hard, because, as I said earlier in this post, seems like DragonEater's posts are calculated rather than going with the flow of the game. The obsession of getting out of RVS and shutting down FB because of "PTSD from Dragon Slayer" contradicts his own way of playing and approaching games. Second point and much more important was brought by Feysal here. DragonEater's answer is fairly damning towards this point on how NOT comfortable he looks in this game, since he agrees that his playstyle in this game is particularly different. "I really don't know how you percieve me as being nervous, but I agree that I'm not playing like I usually do" is saying he disagrees first and then unintentionally validates the point.

Miscellaneous things that caught my attention while metadiving DragonEater:

1. In Weird Dreams Mafia v1, he said that it's easier for him to townhunt on early game than to scumhunt, and that makes sense from his town games where he starts throwing a bunch of townreads before really pushing his scumreads. In this game, however, he threw two early scumreads and not a single townread.

2. In both Dragon Slayer and Weird Dreams DragonEater talked or used RVS as a positive thing to start the game; in Dragon Slayer, he actually meta cased Furtive for how he was RVSing compared to other games, and in Weird Dreams, well, he explicitly talked about how he sees RVS as tool that he uses to get things going. He also gave and exhaustive explanation of how he understands RVS, how it has different phases and how it should be used and seen as town in this post. In this game, however, tried to move out of RVS as fast as he could when he got what he wanted. His vote on FB would qualify as, in his own words, a RVS Phase II vote, and the way he dealed with RVS this game looks like he didn't want this game to have an organical way to develop this 3 states, not letting the rest of the playerlist to actually develop valuable reads.

This game has nothing similar with his town games, and even DragonEater is justifying this by calling himself more relaxed than usual and not tryharding. I disagree, I feel like trying to look relaxed is how he decided to approach the game to avoid being scumread early game, which happens often, but this time it would be right. Using his own meta to validate this feeling, the lack of confidence and solveyness, the non existent analysis and excess self awareness, and the feeling that he's not comfortable in this game compared to other games, all points out that we're dealing with scum!DragonEater.

PS: Black, the reason why I wanted to shut you down was because I wanted to see how DragonEater interacted with what was being said about him, not you. Sorry for coming too harsh on you, I had a bad day and I saw your post as an impediment on getting more information out of DragonEater. It happened here, where Shea answered a question that was directed at DragonEater, and pinged me for interfering with my objective. The difference is that I wasn't an asshole to Shea and I was to you, so sorry again.

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I am trying to deescalate things for your benefit as well. You are getting worked up over not liking the way someone else is playing the game. I'm not attacking you, I even defended your posts to Black and said that I thought that DragonEater wasn't responding to the main points.

OK, so your problem is that it feels like Black isn't considering your points?

And it feels like you're deescalating something that needs no deescalation for the sake of looking good

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Where’s Dunn to deescalate this????

In all seriousness, Drixx is there a chance that is STD’s play style that’s infuriating for you rather than his read? Seems like a clash of old school vs new school of playing mafia rather than something else, I don’t see how you could get bothered by a scumread that you believe has no substance

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What I mean by style is that calling someone a scumread without giving much reasoning is something that is much more common nowadays

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If we could use analytics to see how much the word “vibe” is being used… I love vibe reads

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It is how it is. As I said, old vs. new school. Vibe reads are more than that, but I can understand that you think that’s all they are.

And speaking of old school, ‘lynch’ is prohibited now because of how that word is charged historically speaking; that’s why we often use “eliminate” or “lim” today.

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I assume you didn’t know, but please avoid using it in the future!

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Did you ever get to analyze Black’s real time interactions back when we talked about them?

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Oh I was looking for the post to quote it but yeah it was pretty obvious you were using it because you’re used to it and with no ill intent so don’t worry about it

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Did you ever get to analyze Black’s real time interactions back when we talked about them?

You mean to see if interactions were just proximity to other people active at the same times of activity? I have not. That will require a lot more attention and actual evaluation by me as opposed to what I did before. Not very straightforward to automate that really.

it’s ok, I’m trying to give you something to focus instead of StD

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@pb if you could ask jingle his thoughts i would be much obliged

On it

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That's a success on my count

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Titus what do you mean by point 2. creating a toxic environment?

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But if we all preemptively agree?

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It naturally causes the game to go mech over scumhunt

This is true only if the scumteam can't be consistent with their claims or am I not understanding something?

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Ahh no wait, scratch that. I know what you mean, there's no way we agree in every single thing and discussions will be about mech instead of actual scumhunting. I mixed 2 and 3 together

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Ahh no wait, scratch that. I know what you mean, there's no way we agree in every single thing and discussions will be about mech instead of actual scumhunting. I mixed 2 and 3 together

Indeed. Also, town can be dumb on mech. I once capitalized on this by claiming a confirmed scum post on day 1. Sadly, I was not nominated for a scummy.

I'll point out your posts to Jingle too to see what he thinks about it in particular, but I think that sure, mechanicallywise it could be a good idea, but it won't be applicable.

This is me trying to solve games by mechanics:

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@GiF, can't any of your teammates chime in for you to give you a tl;dr so you have something to start off?

Also happy birthday!

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@GiF, can't any of your teammates chime in for you to give you a tl;dr so you have something to start off?

Also happy birthday!

Rest of them are barely here too lol
Except Adorable but he look lost

How can y'all be average team mafia enjoyers if you aren't playing it!!

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i could probably do GIF tbh too if i think about it but i'd rather wait for more. have the same feeling with kuribo

What about Feysal? Given the last readlist you gave us

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I also think I put feysal too low

i don't feel feysal atm

Didn't see that, thanks! What did make you change your mind about Feysal?

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Ircher is a no go today

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i didn't post a logic and facts TM wall that people of the 2010s liked.

Omfg StD I said to Drixx that your 1v1 looked like old vs new school 'cause I was sure you joined recently and now I see you've been here since 2004

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StD can we just call you Daddy Dragon?

About this: it's funny as fuck that we have both Save the Dragons and DragonEater in the same game. There's a story to tell about this