Team Mafia 2020: Open Setup - Game Over

[NaCl]

VOTE: Elsa Jay

I'm also against outing hoods right away. I think a neighbor should reveal when their partner dies, though.
The doc has utility outside because it can protect one of the 3-4 other confirmable town roles, and I'd rather not reveal it right away.

[NaCl]

VOTE: Elsa Jay

I'm also against outing hoods right away. I think a neighbor should reveal when their partner dies, though.
The doc has utility outside because it can protect one of the 3-4 other confirmable town roles, and I'd rather not reveal it right away.

If you agree, why vote me and not Titus?

I agree that it's a bad idea. I don't really agree that it makes Titus scum as opposed to her being wrong.

[NaCl]

An IC is outed by definition. I don’t know what you’re talking about

Ideally, doc should protect phone operator, so I’m assuming they would be IC then. I’ve never hear of an “indecisive” anything before? What does that even mean in this context?

This is right, if we want an IC it should be the phone operator since the doctor can keep them alive for a bit longer.

But like titus explain to me the value of outting all the neighborhoods

No scum can be doubled in a hood. We get a conftown. A lot of scenarios get eliminated.

Scum are forced to nearly play white flag. Every scum lynch townfirms someone. They can't bus scum, shoot the neighbor and claim the hood for themselves.

They can't do this anyways unless both their neighbour is dead and their partner's neighbour is dead.

[NaCl]

Well, I’ve already outed myself as a Neighbor, which was a careless mistake, but I won’t be outing my Neighbor. I suggest we table it until at least D2, and at the start of each day ask ourselves, “Do we need an IC today?”

PE: We don’t get to choose who the IC is. It’s the Doctor.

Wait, why can't it be the Phone operator? Yes, scum can CC, but then we're trading 1 for 1 and if we lynch right the doc can protect the scum's neighbor.

[NaCl]

whats ur 2 cents on titus krazy

She's town but we should be sticking to "strategy A" until there's a town consensus to switch to "strategy B"

Strategy A: Hoods aren't revealed until L-1 with intent to protect the doc
Strategy B: All hoods are revealed to guarantee the production of ICs upon redflips

We can always switch to B, but we can't go back to A once we go B.

This is right, but I'm fairly sure that in 90% of cases, Strategy A is better than Strategy B. Just don't quickhammer, anyone who does will get lynched.

I'm going to tackle this in the morning. I have a deep gut feeling that there's either a setup break or at least a mandatory-once-we-see-it strategy in the setup.

I think it's as optimal as it gets with this right now, which is what people have been saying, I'm pretty sure:
-Neighbor claims when someone is at L-1 or has just died.
-Don't quickhammer.

Anyways, I think this is the optimal strategy and most people also agree so I'm not really seeing that discussing the setup more would be productive (unless I'm making some huge mistake with my understanding), so hopefully we can bury that topic now.

Math's thoughts Nancy is town or scum with Elsa. Oka is lock!town. He's only read through page 1 though.

I'm not sure what to think on the strength of his reads.

I'm strongly leaning town on Pine, Krazy and Oka at the moment. I doubt Elsa and Nancy are scum. That's a little self-centered and convienent to think scum just immediately voted me because I had the optimal plan. I would expect that either Elsa or Nancy is scum but not both.

I don't know what your point of adding in the first part is. That feels like a way to shift responsibility off your own reads. As for your opinions, what is so good about Krazy? He feels pretty middle of the road to me.

Right now I'm liking pops, S_S, and ND39, and kind of Pine and Okapoka. Everyone else is pretty much meh and hasn't really jumped out to me. Weak scumleans on Elsa and DrDolittle.

oh one more thing

this game is similar in spirit to the monty hall problem, I think. If A flips town, A's neighbour flips scum a lot more often. This also will constrain scum night kills, which is why I think its solveable for town.

This is correct, but at the same time, it doesn't sit right with me. Because while it does constrain scum kills, this is also something that can be used to chain one town lynch into another.

Could you also explain your opinion on Elsa Jay? I was getting slight scum-vibes initially, but nothing too strong. What makes your read so confident?


Also, I will similarly be a bit restricted on my availability for today and tomorrow, but I should be able to pick up after that.

[NaCl]

Hey, Oka, could you spell out why Krazy is not really engaging with the game and that makes him scum? I'm just not seeing him jump out at me among this slow start.

Because I kind of agree with the first part, but I also feel like there are other people who aren't doing that and are doing it worse.
Mostly Eddie Cane, who said he wouldn't be around much and then made use of his time to go and do irrelevant things. I don't really doubt the fact that he's on vacation, but assuming that's the case, I would have expected something more substantial rather than skirting around.
VOTE: Eddie Cane

[NaCl]

Funny though it was that Eddie vote was garbage.

"I know he's on vacation but he should be contributing anyway" like how do you know how much time he has for mafia right now.

That's not what I said. It's more that he has enough time to post in this game but doesn't seem to be making anything of substance.

[NaCl]

I mean having enough time to post and having enough time to read and then post are two different things and you seem to be conflating them.

Maybe, but I don't see the point in posting for the sake of posting.

[NaCl]

But is posting for the sake of posting scummy?

I think it could be. Although to be fair, posting thoughts without being really caught up is worse, which isn't the case here. I suppose it's unproductive but you are right that he could have time to post and not read fully so he's only responding to trivial things. Do you believe that he hasn't been reading the thread beyond what is immediately there? Or is that just a hypothetical?

Eddie, is your vote on Nancy serious?

[NaCl]

His posts gave me more the impression that he had read the thread, though.

[NaCl]

Actually, upon rereading, you might be right. Yeah, I think I'm being too focused.

[NaCl]

UNVOTE:

I'm still not completely convinced but it's unproductive to really think about it. I'm pretty busy myself today and will spend more time on looking through people tomorrow.

[NaCl]

Okay, I've caught up now.

Eddie Cane:

UNVOTE:

I'm still not completely convinced but it's unproductive to really think about it. I'm pretty busy myself today and will spend more time on looking through people tomorrow.

Yeah, I'm not really feeling this anymore. I would like to know about your ND vote back then, though, Eddie.

I'm caught up. I have 3 town reads, 2 scum reads, and a bunch of nulls.

Care to share them?

UNVOTE:

@nacl I don't feel krazy lynch good anymore

I feel meh about all the other existing wagon someone sell me

I don't know if what ss is currently posting is scum indicative or even ai

Eh, I'm having trouble seeing where you're at. Do you have an opinion on anyone in this game besides Krazy?


@ND39
Could you explain your thought process on going back and forth on the Hectic wagon?
Specifically, what made you say he's town in 584, then say that you were going to wait for him before changing your mind and joining the vote?

@Pine
I don't see why you find Hectic's post to be so scummy. It feels kind of forced to me. Because for one thing, it's Hectic, and also, he's already been outed as a neighbor. So why do you think it's some kind of gambit to get someone who's not reading to go and out themselves?

The entire Hectic wagon is pretty meh. I feel like it's being pushed for weak reasons. I'm not really seeing Hectic as being anything other than null so far and if he is scum then the wagon would be pretty productive, but if he's town then the lynch would be wasted one.

[NaCl]

I’m not confident on it, I’m a lot more confident on certain tr. Like you, Krazy, Titus, Elsa, Piss, for example. I’m actually tl a majority of the playerlist. Everyone who’s ever played with me, knows my sr for the most part on D1, aren’t strong, with rare exceptions.

Okay, I was just wondering if it was his posts that were changing your mind or something.

Also nacl I'm voting hectic rn if you want to know where I'm at

Okay, so you actually think he's scum, then? I thought you were just kind of sheeping people. But I'm trying to have a better grip on what you think, since I don't really feel like you've said that much that's in depth enough for me to understand. Could you please make that easy for me?

[NaCl]

Nacl I have a lot more town reads and not many good scumreads so I'm just poking around until I find something I feel good to push

Yeah, but I'm trying to get a better read on you because I don't feel like you've really commented on much that's more than surface level and I want you to kind of elaborate on things.

Salt I was in a game with you, either on weiss or dva, and you feel a little more passive here than you did there. Kinda same question, has your playstyle changed much in last two or three months?

I have not played with either of them but I think you are Wagonomics? That was the game we were together in. No, it's just that I finally realized that I don't do well in games that have more than like 9 people in it because I can't really keep track of too many people at the same time. I'd initially hoped that it was just a thing I did as scum but this is actually the first game with 13+ players in it where I'm town and I don't feel that great here either.

There are a bunch of people who I don't feel like I have a grip on, most of all bob. I haven't really been following what he's been saying and I'm just trusting Farkran's townread on him. But yeah, I just mostly have some townreads and a few weak scumreads that I don't really feel confident in.


@Pops
Could you help explain your townread on Oka? I know a bunch of people are liking him, but I really don't have a good feeling on him and I know you

love

like

tolerate explaining things to me. To me, it feels like his posts don't really have that much depth to them and I can't really see that much into it.

[NaCl]

Nancy you always have an expectation of people treating you as obvtown and I'm hoping that if even your teammates can't explain why you are obvtown you will stop beating our heads over not locking you town.

Idk what to say nacl if you don't like what I've had to say then unlucky

Fine. VOTE: Okapoka Farkran says your posting doesn't have any depth to it ( mostly agree) and whenever I try and get a better grip on your thought process you clearly don't want to help me with that.

@NACL why aren't you voting? Too salty? (Sorry couldn't resist the pun.)

See my previous response to Krazy, same thing.

this is very good actually

i want

<elsa,nacl,ddl,bob,amrun> to take sides and comment on this

Okay, so pops vs Eddie, I don't think outing the neighborhood makes Eddie scum. Like, I get that Eddie can do it if he's careless scum but pops' argument doesn't make sense since he can also do it if he's annoyed town and I don't see why pops is reading into it in that way. It feels forced.
I initially liked pops for her earlier play because it didn't feel like it was scum-her and I think I actually know how she is as scum, unlike most people here. But the vote on Eddie feels like a reach.


Regarding the Hectic wagon, I'm not super opposed to it, but I disagree with the reasoning behind it. Mostly for Nancy's issue. Because from what I'm reading from Hectic's posts, he doesn't seem to understand the issue with the question he was asking. Nancy, do you think he's faking that he doesn't understand? I think it would be easier for scum to just say, "oops, I didn't realize" and then stop pushing on it instead of continuing to try talking to you.

[NaCl]

you don't think hectic's most recent posts are shit?

I think Hectic's posts haven't been too great but there are times where I see a move that I think scum-Hectic would make but Hectic is specifically not making those actions. The wagon is generally pretty badly done. Although if he is scum then I think pops is more likely to be town due to 968.

Nancy you always have an expectation of people treating you as obvtown and I'm hoping that if even your teammates can't explain why you are obvtown you will stop beating our heads over not locking you town.

Idk what to say nacl if you don't like what I've had to say then unlucky

Fine. VOTE: Okapoka Farkran says your posting doesn't have any depth to it ( mostly agree) and whenever I try and get a better grip on your thought process you clearly don't want to help me with that.

@NACL why aren't you voting? Too salty? (Sorry couldn't resist the pun.)

See my previous response to Krazy, same thing.

this is very good actually

i want

<elsa,nacl,ddl,bob,amrun> to take sides and comment on this

Okay, so pops vs Eddie, I don't think outing the neighborhood makes Eddie scum. Like, I get that Eddie can do it if he's careless scum but pops' argument doesn't make sense since he can also do it if he's annoyed town and I don't see why pops is reading into it in that way. It feels forced.
I initially liked pops for her earlier play because it didn't feel like it was scum-her and I think I actually know how she is as scum, unlike most people here. But the vote on Eddie feels like a reach.


Regarding the Hectic wagon, I'm not super opposed to it, but I disagree with the reasoning behind it. Mostly for Nancy's issue. Because from what I'm reading from Hectic's posts, he doesn't seem to understand the issue with the question he was asking. Nancy, do you think he's faking that he doesn't understand? I think it would be easier for scum to just say, "oops, I didn't realize" and then stop pushing on it instead of continuing to try talking to you.

This whoooole post sets off alarms. Salt is undermining a near-universally Townread player while weakly affirming the wagon (that that player) is on. There's a whole lot of unnatural solviness (yes I just made up a word) there. "I don't disagree with your vote, but let me now try to build a case against one of the people on that wagon" is a classic scum misdirect-while-hedging play.

That's nice and all, but that doesn't refute what I'm saying. Like, I'm specifically saying that I don't see scum motivation in Hectic's actions. I don't think Hectic has done a single thing worth defending him for, I just think that the wagon is mixed full of people with bad reasons like you and ND, and scum who is going along for the ride (Okapoka, far less sure on Pisskop). If Hectic does flips scum, yeah, sure, I'll have to change. And my case on Okapoka has nothing to do with the Hectic wagon.

Like are you trying to ignore my point? Unless your reasons have changed on Hectic, I still don't think that most of the stuff people are talking about are scummy.

Nancy you always have an expectation of people treating you as obvtown and I'm hoping that if even your teammates can't explain why you are obvtown you will stop beating our heads over not locking you town.

Idk what to say nacl if you don't like what I've had to say then unlucky

Fine. VOTE: Okapoka Farkran says your posting doesn't have any depth to it ( mostly agree) and whenever I try and get a better grip on your thought process you clearly don't want to help me with that.

@NACL why aren't you voting? Too salty? (Sorry couldn't resist the pun.)

See my previous response to Krazy, same thing.

this is very good actually

i want

<elsa,nacl,ddl,bob,amrun> to take sides and comment on this

Okay, so pops vs Eddie, I don't think outing the neighborhood makes Eddie scum. Like, I get that Eddie can do it if he's careless scum but pops' argument doesn't make sense since he can also do it if he's annoyed town and I don't see why pops is reading into it in that way. It feels forced.
I initially liked pops for her earlier play because it didn't feel like it was scum-her and I think I actually know how she is as scum, unlike most people here. But the vote on Eddie feels like a reach.


Regarding the Hectic wagon, I'm not super opposed to it, but I disagree with the reasoning behind it. Mostly for Nancy's issue. Because from what I'm reading from Hectic's posts, he doesn't seem to understand the issue with the question he was asking. Nancy, do you think he's faking that he doesn't understand? I think it would be easier for scum to just say, "oops, I didn't realize" and then stop pushing on it instead of continuing to try talking to you.

It’s definitely possible but that isn’t why I’m voting him but when I tell someone that I’m concerned that answering something could be antitown, I don’t know why they don’t back off either. One thing is clear. Hectic and Pine are never buddies here.

However, why Oka? He is so obviously town. This vote may possibly be town indicative for you however, since there’s pretty much no chance we’re flipping Oka today.

1. I don't think that setup discussion is alignment indicative most of the time which is his oldest posts.
2. He's posting a lot of opinions but isn't really backing them up. Too many of his posts are like "I think X" and is missing the "I think X because _". He goes on about Krazy scum and when I try to push deeper on it, he abandons the read. And the entire time I've been trying to get a better understanding of his thoughts, he's been sidestepping my question. He was deliberately avoiding me advance my read on him.

[NaCl]

It's a data point. I've liked a lot of his other posts. I think he's netted to null. I can't remember whether I've stated how much I like the other posts itt or not.
NaCl is a really strange slot. He just randomly said "my teammate told me to vote the UTR so I'm now voting the UTR" and it seems too wolfy to be wolf. I can't make sense of it.
All these things seem like way smaller deals than Eddie Cane scumslipping so I feel like I'm on crazy pills

pedit: whoa like 8 pedits

Pops, I would have expected you to have a stronger read on me. But it's not that "I'm just doing what Farkran told me" but rather that he convinced me on Okapoka's posts that they're not really something I should be townreading. Because I was initially townreading Oka and Farkran convinced me otherwise. And when you say it like that it's discrediting.

Also, @Oka well, if you don't want to tell me about what you were thinking in the past that's not a good look. Literally everything you do feels like it's trying to make it hard for me to understand you. Yes, I get that you explaining opinions you don't have anymore doesn't help the game progress. But it helps me read you.

Quite on the contrary, if I was scum I would have carefully reread that before posting.

I started off composing the sentence as one thing, then changed my mind and forgot to go back and omit Pine’s name from the first part. Basically I was going to lump them together and say something slightly different, then decided that Pine deserved his own sentence.

Amrun, could you say what it was you were originally thinking and why you changed your mind on it?

I ISOed NaCl. I disliked his dislike for Eddie based on the vacation and posting for the sake of posting things. I liked his comments on my wagon and the comment on the doc crumb thing and resulting conversation with Nancy.

@NaCl: "I think Hectic's posts haven't been too great but there are times where I see a move that I think scum-Hectic would make but Hectic is specifically not making those actions." - can you specify what kind of scum moves you thought I would make but didn't make?

I think I missed where he flipped a read based on his teammate's opinions or something like that. Can someone link me to that post?

Specifically when you were trying to press Nancy for an answer to your question and getting scumread by her for it, I don't see why you didn't just stop (I still think you were wrong on it since it might out the PR). Because you didn't have to keep asking the question and the fact that you continued to press it despite it being unpopular felt like you were tunnelling on trying to get your answer more than you cared about how you looked to her. I think that if you were scum you would have admitted to your mistake or otherwise backed off.


@Oka
Could you explain what made you change your mind on the Pine wagon?

@Eddie cane
I kind of think that if Hectic flips scum then it's more likely that pops is scum. I don't agree with Hectic's reasons for townreading her and pops's feels like she's soft-defending Hectic

Regarding Pine, I really think this wagon is worse than the Hectic one and that Pine is town, although I think he's been consistently wrong in his reads on Hectic (well, also me). Like, I'm still in favour of Okapoka because I feel like he's not really engaging directly. Every attempt I make to try and understand him feels like he's deliberately avoiding me and I don't think he's really gotten into any kind of long drawn out discussion of how he thinks. I know pretty much everyone disagrees with me but I don't get why.

[NaCl]

but also the way I see it there is very little value for me to just be completely transparent and sharing all my notes at every stage of the game because

1) my reputation of scumhunting is mediocre at best
2) I am pretty much a utr so I don't need to bother with proving myself as town

so the gain of me outting my reads is that it can
1) reassure everyone that im townie i guess
2) have notes that other people can work off of

the loss is
1) i don't get to be a spooky wildcard
2) i am more susceptible to being lead to the wrong place

Okay, this is understandable.

Nice, NaCl is town.

Agree, I like the logic in that post.

@NaCl: What do you dislike about my Pops townread?

I disagree with her read on Eddie. I think she was too quick to go after him over revealing the neighbourhood. I think it's far more likely that Eddie was irritated and revealed it rather than him being too careless and letting it slip. I don't think it's a very good reason to be townreading her and scumreading Eddie.

I definitely think you’re town from this but I don’t necessarily agree with your reasoning for tr Hectic, because if he was in fact scum trying to out the PR, why would he back off?

I still don’t understand your Oka sr, because he’s like this in pretty much every game I’ve played with him. I also think the question he was asking me earlier was based on helping to clarify his read on me. Auro definitely didn’t sr it.

Why do you think town!Pine wants to ram a Hectic wagon through so quickly, when we still have plenty of time left?

Regarding Hectic, I think it's far more likely that he genuinely didn't understand what was wrong with his posts. If he was scum who was specifically trying to get a reaction out of you there's no way that asking the same question and ignoring your concerns was going to get you to respond because he'd know the issue with what he's asking. If he was scum trying to out the PR then he wouldn't get anywhere by continuing to make you suspicious of him.

I don't know how Oka plays. But yeah, I'm not feeling it as much.

I don't know Pine well enough to say. Although there are reasons why I like fast lynches in some situations, the fact that neighbour pairs keep outing themselves is one of them. I think Pine is wrong and my Hectic read has gotten stronger, but to me Pine feels more like he's wrong than he's scum.

@NaCl: I was just giving a basic list of who was on the wagon that made me feel ick at first, then I decided to go into a little more detail and give Pine his own sentence. I don’t remember the exact wording.

Okay, makes sense.

I'm not positive he's town, I'm not the best ambassador for SS town


Oka pisskop is my top townread besides you, I feel like every other game could flip scum without me feeling like the tables and chairs are on the ceiling
Do you want me to do towncasey stuff
I'm at a weird mix of ragestration where I don't feel like doing nice things
But if you care I can find what about his posts I liked
I don't know if I could do that if you'd just ignore it.

Pine would be the better pi-name of the two to be wagoning

pedit: wow there are pedits

Pops, could you not ignore me?

I have not played with either of them but I think you are Wagonomics? That was the game we were together in. No, it's just that I finally realized that I don't do well in games that have more than like 9 people in it because I can't really keep track of too many people at the same time. I'd initially hoped that it was just a thing I did as scum but this is actually the first game with 13+ players in it where I'm town and I don't feel that great here either.

Do you feel like your team is helping? Or does trying to coordinate with more people only make it more confusing?

It's not really that it's confusing but it's partially that they are occupied with their own games as well, and it turns out that they all live in different time zones from me which makes it difficult for us to really communicate and get a good understanding of what's in each others' heads when we make a read. Also I can't help but argue with their opinions a bit too much.

Regarding Pine, I really think this wagon is worse than the Hectic one and that Pine is town,

Why is Pine town?

I feel like the stuff he was talking about in the early game was making mistakes that came from someone who was town. I really disagree with the Hectic case, but I feel that pretty much everything he was doing felt real. I'm not really sure how to explain it, though, but he really feels like he has a townie thought process, both from the early game and other things that don't relate to Hectic, like explaining Amrun's thought process and that matches up with things I do.

Also, supposing Pine was scum and Hectic was town, I don't think Pine needs to try and push it through so loudly anyways. I don't see the issue in wanting to be the leading voice on that unless it's specifically to set up some kind of mind games where he's trying to make his push look bad in a towny way.

Is it wrong to townread Eddie for this? I'm kind of townreading Eddie for these mention things.

Eh, I feel pretty good on Eddie right now.

If you dont like a krazy wagon, an eddie cane wagon is an option! Probably better than nacl or pine tbh.

What? Why would you want to be wagoned?

I agree with you on NaCi. There are two scum in this game, who else is your team sr? Btw, I envy you. I’ve been literally screaming at my team - Pine? Hectic? Who do you think is scum here and no one has said jack so far. :/

Turns out sleep is hard.

Did no one notice this slip?

Why'd you think there were two scum, Nancy?

Jeez, Nancy, I was insinuating it was a townslip, not a scum one...

If you are insinuating that it was a townslip, why did you ask the question underlined there?

UNVOTE: I don't really want Okapoka anymore. I was partially just annoyed since he kept on evading me the first few times I tried to improve my read on him.

I am slightly more in favour of a Hectic lynch. I strongly don't want Pine lynched.

I still feel unsure on my scumreads, feel a lot better on my townreads. Right now I'm kind of okay with lynching any of {Pops, Elsa, Krazy, Pisskop} maybe Hectic.

[NaCl]

Really sorry about just vanishing, everyone. I ran into some RL stuff I needed to deal with.

If you are insinuating that it was a townslip, why did you ask the question underlined there?

So my first thought when I say that post was that it was a townslip, but I asked the question so I could get clarification for how Nancy actually came to the incorrect assumption there were 2 mafia, to check for a possible fabrication of a townslip. I'm pretty sure it's a townslip, but do you want to answer this, Nancy?

@NaCi, why in 1544 did Hectic’s response in 1435 ping you? Yes, while I initially did misinterpret his post as shade, it clearly wasn’t, so I really don’t understand your issue with it and why it would negatively affect your read on Hectic.

The question felt bad because it's not something that would ever get an answer that would prove something one way or the other. Hectic, I know that you'd say that, but I was asking why you'd ask it in such a way. Because both anyone, town or scum would just realize (or pretend) that they were handling the setup incorrectly and pointing out that felt like it was weakly shading things to be a scumslip. Also, just pointing out the slip beforehand makes it harder to get an answer that is actually useful.

I disagree with her read on Eddie. I think she was too quick to go after him over revealing the neighbourhood. I think it's far more likely that Eddie was irritated and revealed it rather than him being too careless and letting it slip. I don't think it's a very good reason to be townreading her and scumreading Eddie.

I do completely agree with her reasoning there though, because I have personal experience of catching scum using that exact same logic where being right is more important than them over figuring out alignments, Eddie's tone and nature this game has reeked of town otherwise though.
Regarding Pops, I initially read her outrage as genuine, but it is the first time I've ever seen such a strong reaction from her, but I've played with town and scum her, so I don't know if that's AI for her. If someone could weigh in on that.

I don't see how you found that Eddie did that because he wanted to be right. Like there is no incentive to reveal it for either scum or town and it felt like more of a natural reaction to me. Although I'm not really feeling my SR on you anymore, it probably just stuck out due to recency.

Now we have the hectic wagon. His alignment isnt known yet but we have 2 conditions. One he is scum and one he is town.

Now what woudl teh comp of both wagons be in each condition

If he is town one of:

Pine, pisskop, Nancy Drew 39, DrDolittle, OkaPoka, titus, elsa

is almost certianly scum.

But if he is scum would a wagon of that size really be all town this early. So just as likely that atleast one is scum

But would more be one one or the other and more importantly which one.

Um, yes, but that wagon plus Hectic is more than half the players. Do you think that there would be more than 1 scum on there if Hectic is town?

Pretty sure Bob is town.

Also bob is probably town.

@Amrun, @Hectic,
Are this due to Bob's most recent posts (well at that time)? Because to me it felt like he put up a bunch of wagons and didn't actually comment on anything, then said at least one person out of this huge wagon is scum. I was liking him more beforehand, but those posts felt like they were a whole bunch of dry, empty bread in disguise.

I actually have no idea what I could possibly do to rerail the game though. Eddie is just openly admitting to wagoning a player he thinks is less likely to flip scum, in a way the conspicuously aligns with not wanting his neighbor to actually become dead and incriminate him and/or not wanting to continue a dialogue with that neighbor when he's currently winning public opinion and only has it to lose. Like he can clearly just do what he wants now. Ali told me in discord something about how e catches scum that'd I'd never heard before, e said, "you often see with scum, spending a certain amount of time acting a certain way [this is paraphrase by the way even though I used the quote character, no banns Micc], doing the things that would get them townread, trying really hard. Then they get townread. And there is this flick of the switch where they realize they don't have to do it anymore. And they change and do the things they want to do. That's when you can catch them." E said he saw Dannflor doing that. The thing Ali hasn't exactly explained to me is how you work with that if you didn't roll vig, because Dannflor was never actually lynched. So now I'm just full of despair. I think Eddie may have already endgamed the 15p.

Point 1 (to the thread)

This is not a townie wall of words. Remotely.

Point 2 (to Pops)

It is my game, but I have 3 town voices I can dialogue with. I made the judgment call to place my vote on Krazy, factoring in their stated confidence vs my own. If that read ends up being wrong, I will be at fault, not them; part of my read is considering their reads. I think a lot of what forum players miss is that mafia is a

team game

, not you + a bunch of fuckos you have to persuade vs some scum. This is just posturing on your part.

I’m kind of not liking how Pops has been ignoring evidence that supports team reads are believable. Like I totally believe your team said exactly what you said they did and it totally lines up with what I’d expect from them thinking along a townie mindset.

Another reason why I believe Titus is town here, because I freaking know Math.

I disagree very strongly on this, I think team reads are entirely NAI. Anyone can choose to withhold their role pm (or lie about it) from their teammates and have them be thinking they're a different role from what they actually are.

Please don't call me "kid" or any other noun that doesn't describe me.

I think my vote is on Amrun right now, it'd be about the same as if it was on Eddie. Moving it doesn't matter, people changing their minds would matter more than the integers next to the names.

Why is Amrun scum?

Amrun is willing to lynch basically anybody. I can't remember a time she's come to this thread and said anything in the vein of "X seems like the hot wagon right now, but Y has higher probability to flip scum and serves my wincon and we should move to it".

I've seen players like Titus have that attitude as town and that's probably the kind of Titus we have here, but my interpretation of her timings and justifications leans towards this being the scummy wine-in-front interest in wagons that well slide into hammer quickly and get the first mislynch before this game gets re-paradigmed to have some scum in the consensus scumreads.

Amrun is down for every wagon, even ones that seem diametrically opposed in various ways, never convinces me that she's solving with the way she discusses her reads, and I still think the typo thing is at least a little scummy.

Her entire body of play seems like sheep scum very happy with the way this day is going to me.

If pops flips scum Amrun is a very strong townread for me. I don't see them going after each other like that as S/S. But I otherwise agree with the case, I do have the same feeling.

I'm keeping this here but I first did a vote on pops and then changed my mind on it. I still agree with it but I need the part below answered before I decide to vote first.

I'm feeling a bit more confident in things. (Vote: Pops I changed my mind on) even if she's not scum this is an informative wagon, but her posts are feeling more and more like scum-pops to me.
If pops flips scum, then Hectic is a likely partner. Amrun is likely town, Eddie certainly town.
If pops flips town, then Amrun is likely scum. Hectic is probably town.

I said he would endgame me, and he quoted me saying he would endgame me and said "get fucked kid"

that is bragging about endgaming me

I think this is the most important post in the thread. Pops, Eddie, can you both tell me which one of Pops's posts in this thread was the next one she made after this was said in your hood? (I'm pretty sure this is within the rules but someone please stop this otherwise).

Also, the Pine wagon is bad because Pine's town.

[NaCl]

I find the notion that people didnt auto tell their team their role hilarious. I still cant tell if people are being serious about that.

My team actually did a rotation thingy where some people are spoiled and some are unspoiled in each game and I felt really smart for bringing it up...

I'd thought it would be a good way of giving a variety of perspectives that can't be obtained from a single player.

The above was from Pine.

My friend, all of bob’s posts sound like dry bread in disguise, always. Does that really make the bread bag empty? The bread bag is not empty here. It’s like hearty whole wheat bread with oats and pumpkin seeds and stuff. If the bread bag was empty, that would be when bob is scum.

And ignoring the content of his posts because they’re walls with typos and make your eyes glaze over is a mistake. When he’s town, he’s sharp.


I don’t like, and I don’t understand, this thought that you think pops is scummy, but it pops flips town, then I’m scum. I just had a game where scum set me up just like that and was mislynched in LyLo over it.

Being wrong doesn’t make someone scum, especially when it’s something you yourself agree with. ?!?

And pops posting lately has been BETTEr, not worse.

I agree with the argument pops was making and I was feeling it myself, but at the same time I don't trust pops enough to agree with it unless I know she's town. I don't think that she's trying to distance herself from you as S/S because this setup is incentivized not to bus and I don't see you in a position where you'd be able to get to endgame from bussing her. If she flips scum, then I strongly think you're town. But in either case, lynching her is far better than any of the other lynches because I think she's likely scum and even if not, I think it would give the most information.

Regarding bob, I just wanted to understand your thought process. I know he's had some good posts. But you didn't answer my question. I'm not as interested in reading on bob as I am on reading you.

@NaCl: I've seen him do a very similar type of VCA as town in a kinda recent large game. He just feels incredibly similar here, and his pushes and behaviour are all genuine imo.

Could you show me those links? Because I agree that his general behaviour has been towny from before, but you didn't answer the specific question I'd just asked you which was about those specific posts from bob and what you thought of them.

I said he would endgame me, and he quoted me saying he would endgame me and said "get fucked kid"

that is bragging about endgaming me

I think this is the most important post in the thread. Pops, Eddie, can you both tell me which one of Pops's posts in this thread was the next one she made after this was said in your hood? (I'm pretty sure this is within the rules but someone please stop this otherwise).

Pops, Eddie, do either of you want to answer this?

[NaCl]

My last post was a half-truth. The reality of the situation is that I am personally opposed to receiving help but also they are no longer caught up with the game, therefore I would like to speak of my own merit.

Why didn't you just say that the first time, though?

@NaCl: It was because of Bob's recent posts. I've seen this type of VCA from him before where he insists most wagons have 1 scum on them and tries to PoE using that logic. Mind you, I don't entirely agree with the theory, but his persistence about it is consistent with my other games with him. Though, I haven't actually played with scum!him so that's something to note.

This is useful and I'll wait on seeing what you're specifically talking about before I say more.

@NaCl: How didn’t I answer your question about bob? Can you be more specific, then? Because I thought I did.

That wall about me and pops not being s/s is fine and all, and factually accurate, but none of it says why if pops flips green then you’d suddenly scumread me.

For bob, I was asking about his more recent posts. I mostly wanted to know if 1603 and 1605 were something you were townreading him of off and if so, why.

As for you, it's because I'd believe that if it came from someone else other than pops really easily. I'd feel much more confident in the lynch if I knew that she was town.

[NaCl]

{amrun, bob, eddie, nancy, ss, titus}

If those 5 are right, and we can find one more town, then its actually just auto. The rest of these reads are without iso'ing, just from memory.

{NaCl}
{Hectic}
{DDL, Elsa, Oka, pisskop, unwnd}

I agree with most of that townblock except I have no clue how to understand Titus. But Amrun, Eddie, Nancy, S_S are town, I want to feel the same on Bob but he's like slightly below that level to me.

VOTE: Hectic
My opinion of him has decreased after the pops scumflip. It kind of feels like most of D1 was soft-defending Pops. Like every read on Pops he gave was more or less "Pops is firmly town but I'm not going to try to derail the wagon." But more or less I feel a lot better about having most of a town core and I think that this is a good way to go.

Right now I feel pretty fine with lynching in Hectic or Elsa the most. Unwnd/DDL/Pisskop are slightly less scummy than them. Titus is still someone I don't get.

P-edit: @Elsa, why are you posting in your hood a bunch and not here?

[NaCl]

Because Nancy is talking to me and I like Nancy.

<3

Guys, Elsa is town here, trust me on this. Practically the first thing she posted in our hood is that we shouldn’t out our hood and how do we stop others from doing so. She was also upset when Titus outed her hood with Hectic.

Is that the main reason why you're townreading her? Because it's pretty meh to me. But I want to know what's going on in your neighbourhood, or at least what happened D1.



Regarding Bob, I got a townread on him about midway through D1 and it lessened a bit but he's still pretty towny. But I haven't really been paying attention to what pops had been posting on him, I didn't really notice he was so far down in her reads. I'll need to recheck that later today when I have more time.

[NaCl]

I looked back on Bob, I feel better about him being town.

The reason for that is it I thought Pine was a really likely lynch for today, it seemed like plenty of people were suspecting him. So in that case, why would a scumteam with Bob go kill him instead?
1. They think Bob would be lynched and they're trying to kill Pine beforehand to not create an IC.
2. They think Pine was the Phone Operator and wanted to kill him for that reason.

A scumteam with Bob would know that Pine wasn't the doc and couldn't target him for that reason.
I don't think reason 1 is really plausible. Most people were townreading Bob and scumreading Pine and I didn't see a situation where that would turn around and result in a Bob lynch beforehand, at least on this day.
Reason 2 is possible but I don't see any evidence that would point to that. I think it's far more likely with what S_S said, they were trying to kill the doc or they were misinterpreting his towniness. Which points away from Bob.

Also, Oka is town now.

[NaCl]

@Amrun
Yeah, I just find it unlikely and it's not as plausible of an explanation.
I meant to say that on the whole it points away from Bob.

Mafia also has a Rolecop, so I think a team with Bob on it would be better off checking Pine than killing him except if they believed in situation 1 as well.

@Nancy
I think that's more likely. It's still possible he was after them like what Amrun said or that they were scared of his team. But I think it generally points away from Bob-scum.

[NaCl]

I wouldn’t be opposed to lynching Krazy/unwind. Even if town that would give us a ton of info.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't really like the way unwnd was going around on his teammates and lying about it, it seems like a really weird reaction to say they they first refused to give help and then that he didn't really want it. I don't see why he wouldn't just say that from the start.

Also, I feel really ignored about Hectic. To me it really feels like he and Pops have been soft-defending each other for most of the time, not really putting firm stances on each other but acting in ways to quietly defend the other. Does anyone else see this?



Regarding the hoods, I don't think people should reveal yet. The reason behind it is that I think it helps me with thinking about the nightkills. Let's say that Unwnd is scum and he killed Pine because Pine was after that slot, that's not a team that would happen with Bob-Unwnd, for instance. Because other people were scumreading unwnd who he could have gone after, which might have had a chance of also killing the doc, I think.

But in general I think that it can help think about scum. A scumteam with weakly positioned players would be more likely to kill inside their hood, I think, while one with strongly positioned players would be more likely to kill outside it.

Mainly I don't see any advantage of outing the doc right now when they could reveal at anytime. If the doc gets to L-1 and claims then we just lynch someone else, but if they don't get to that point it still makes the scum have to try and kill them.

[NaCl]

Well, I didn't want to do that, but yup. Neighbours with S_S.

[NaCl]

eddie - pops (deceased)
titus - hectic
okapoka - unwnd
pine (deceased) - bob
nancy - elsa
ddl

amrun - pisskop
NaCl - S_S

Fixed that last bit.

[NaCl]

I would still like #3026 answered by someone? Anyone? Perhaps

Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't really like the way unwnd was going around on his teammates and lying about it, it seems like a really weird reaction to say they they first refused to give help and then that he didn't really want it. I don't see why he wouldn't just say that from the start.

Also, I feel really ignored about Hectic. To me it really feels like he and Pops have been soft-defending each other for most of the time, not really putting firm stances on each other but acting in ways to quietly defend the other. Does anyone else see this?

I want your read on me from a standpoint of our last game played, out of curiosity.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by it but tell me if you meant something other than this.

I think you looked way townier in Assassins. You were more open with giving opinions on people specifically compared to here where you've been more quiet. I also don't know if you've caught up on the game and why your team isn't helping you or why you lied about it in the first place. Your tone of your response in 2500 feels much more like what I'd have expected you to say rather than lying about your reasons or your teams reasons for not catching you up. But you just don't feel the same kind of person as you were there, you feel more guarded her whereas you were blunter there. I don't really know how to describe it.


I've got a couple questions about your team.
1. Which person on your team invited you into Team Mafia to replace Krazy?
2. Does your team know your alignment and role PM?

Okay well the actual game I want to see is tiered reads lists from everyone, could I get one please piss? I consider you a good player, which is why some of your play concerns me. And Amrun's reasons for town reading you are fair, but i think apply less because of your experience.

Town (most towny to least towny): DDL > Eddie > S_S > Amrun > Bob > ND
Null: Okapoka, Titus
Scum (most scummy to least scummy): Hectic > Elsa > Unwnd > Pisskop

Among the nulls I'm feeling pretty good on Okapoka but he's just not there yet, I still don't understand Titus.
I'm really fine with lynching anyone in my scumpool but that's the order that I find it most likely.

[NaCl]

@NaCl: Is there any reason for not putting your vote down for the entirety of the end of Day 1?

Pissy being antagonistic to Eddie recently is pinging me. There's no reason to aggravate an IC as scum, so I think Pissy's trying to project himself as an annoyed townie who's doing that? Idk, it felt like abrasiveness out of nothing to me.

So after I unvoted Oka, I then wound up being busy and not being around for like 2 days. At that point I was trying to sort through Eddie and Pops but neither of them were answering my questions and then Pops got lynched before I could continue pressing it.

Town (most towny to least towny): DDL > Eddie > S_S > Amrun > Bob > ND
Null: Okapoka, Titus
Scum (most scummy to least scummy): Hectic > Elsa > Unwnd > Pisskop

Please go over your scumread of me and show me examples of what you didn't like about me defending Pops.

I didn't agree with comment on Eddie, because I see no reason as to why Eddie outing the neighbourhood was scum-beneficial and townreading pops over that doesn't make sense to me. I agree it was unproductive but I don't see why you'd assume that scum had to be correct. It felt like a contrived reason to townread pops. And whenever you were pressed on the issue you went back to that read.

Then as the game progressed and Eddie looked more towny and Pops started arguing with Amrun, and you moved to a more-middle of the road stance on her and saying that she could be town or she could be scum, 180ing on your opinion on Eddie from before. At no point did you really take a firm stance on defending pops but rather you were more trying to call it off from the sidelines.

Like it felt as though you thought pops was town but weren't willing to take a stand relative to your read on her. Which is why I say you were soft defending her. Despite her being your strongest townread you didn't really care to try and stop the wagon and actually hard defend her, and were instead vanity-wagoning Pine.

YGM btw

Guys, news flash -Literally nobody gives the fainted of fucks about a single game where somebody who isnt in this game did something vaguely tangential-

Right and I correctly nailed scum in Penguin by making the correct connection between Shos/Robb and Thor/Gamma also based on that game but yeah, terrible solve.

How is it different? FL immediately said in that game that it smacked of an Ari hydra frame and he was right and who has been pushing Hectic other than you since Pine flip?

I feel really ignored right now. Could you explain why the whole Pine kill is setting up Hectic, though? I don't see how that is really framing him.

Titus why are you preflipping Nancy scum?

Well at least Titus isn't ignoring me (she's just preflipping me scum).



Clearly everyone has different opinions on me regarding Hectic and I'm not going to keep pushing that for now if no one's listening. And after DDL's case and Pisskop's recent posts I'm more suspicious on him right now. And I'm thinking Hectic/Pisskop is not a team. VOTE: Pisskop



I don't see the advantage in outing the PO right now as opposed to waiting for the day before LYLO if that's even necessary. At this point they're pretty much just a named townie and there's no real advantage to outing them?


Unwnd, what gave you the idea about people lying about their role pm and stuff to their team? Because both you, Krazy and pops were all talking about the idea but as far as I know I'm the only person on a team that actually did a strategy of keeping some people unspoiled. I haven't looked at previous team mafia so I don't know if this seems to be something that actually happens often.

[NaCl]

Nancy, could you summarize your opinion on Titus and Pisskop? I want to make sure of where you stand.

For Titus is it "I think she's town but I don't trust her reads".
And for Pisskop it's "I think he's probably scum"?

[NaCl]

Unwnd, what gave you the idea about people lying about their role pm and stuff to their team? Because both you, Krazy and pops were all talking about the idea but as far as I know I'm the only person on a team that actually did a strategy of keeping some people unspoiled. I haven't looked at previous team mafia so I don't know if this seems to be something that actually happens often.

Everyone in our is saying they're town, myself included. We're operating under that pretense and have been. I didn't even consider lying (even if Krazy did) and didn't even really get the concept at first. My team is filled with people who enjoy winning so the pressure is double on me to perform and I have to tell them "sorry, feeling slightly demotivated and not important." I don't mean that in a melancholy way, It's just that it seems pretty hard to get a word in. Right now I sit pretty certain about a few things. I think this Pisskop wagon sucks, and especially from a set of fresh eyes. A lot of the arguments seem to pertain to what happened prior to my joining and associative of Pops, but me personally I think that is a useless endeavor given to Pops' (normally) erratic behavior. This remains true to how I sorta felt in Assassin's, and I was reading you as scum on an individual basis. It doesn't help that I thought Pops was town but in the back of my mind the mistake I made townreading her was believing a lot of her nonsense, which I think she uses as a crutch.

One thing that I can recall from this game is S_S saying he 0 opinion of me essentially and is now voting me? I don't understand where the sudden shift happened and if it did I would like a reasoning for it perhaps.

Hang on, to be clear on this, is it that your team is doing the policy where they say that they're town or your team is sharing role PMs with each other? Because first of all, those are 2 very different things. Secondly, if that is your strategy, why weren't you open with it in the first place and just told everyone?
UNVOTE:
Getting off Pisskop because I don't want a lynch until this question is resolved.

Titus' behavior has suddenly heightened in order to lynch Pisskop but I think where scum is down a mate the strategy is definitely not to be bold. I think if I happen to be wrong on Pisskop this could end up a good spew but the question remains if the same wagon happens in sorta the same fashion as Pops and truly is just a bingo? Like, I don't understand people talking about VCA and then not considering what is happening before their very eyes.

The strategy depends on where the scum are. I don't really have a problem with lynching many of the scummier slots in here and I don't even think I should be around for much longer myself. Not dying today, though. But scum should be bold if they are both in the general consensus for who's scummy. Scum have no need to do that yet if they're out of it, or even if one is sufficiently out of it.

Nancy, could you summarize your opinion on Titus and Pisskop? I want to make sure of where you stand.

For Titus is it "I think she's town but I don't trust her reads".
And for Pisskop it's "I think he's probably scum"?

Well she’s wrongly sr me, so is this a serious question? Yeah, when it comes to me, she’s being blind town.
I liked DDL’s case, based on his position on the wagon and his Eddie votes are the most suspicious, since Elsa only voted after Krazy made the “massive apology” post and Krazy was possibly omgussing.

I'm mostly confused by your reaction to Titus saying that Pisskop scum meant that you would be next, then you unvoted. Because whatever Titus said there shouldn't impact your read on Pisskop? And I don't see how you're stubbornly disagreeing with Titus while continuing to townread her for it regardless of what she says.


I wish DDL was posting more since he's going to die but I can hardly complain with me having the lowest posts.

I was going to say more stuff but I want an answer from unwnd first.

[NaCl]

viewtopic.php?t=81126&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

This is conveniently a game NaCl was scum with Pops, if anybody wants to compare.

@NaCl, can you please link one of your towngames for me? Thanks.

This is my most recent towngame: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=81537

How is Hectic still your #1 sr?

He might not be my top SR anymore, I'm still thinking. I've said my issue before, that he was soft-defending Pops without actually putting very much effort into it later on as Pops got closer and closer to a lynch, despite calling her his top TR. It doesn't feel like the sort of behaviour someone would take regarding the person that they think is the towniest person in the game. The entire time he was soft-defending her, and only soft defending her.

[NaCl]

ur going to need to be more convincing

Yeah, well the fact that NaCl wagon matches Pops wagon, NaCl has lurked this wagon and day away, NaCl refuses to take a stance on the wagons, Pisskop has NaCl in his lynch list aka 3 man solve but would refuse to vote him to save himself @ L minus 1, pisskop cheerily votes someone outside of his solve and immediately claims his read evolved...

Yeah, I'll take lynch them for 500 Alex.

The wagon composition doesn't matter because people are wrong. And I have a stance on the wagons, I'm pretty fine with all of them right now. I've listed my townreads, none of them are being voted. I still don't really like Hectic but all of Pisskop, Unwnd, and Elsa are on my suspects so why would I have a problem with any of these? Just because I'm not screaming it out doesn't mean I don't have a stance. But I feel very confident in my townreads and not confident in my scumreads so I'm just fine killing any of them.



Unwnd, I need you to clearly say what your team is doing. Because your story keeps on changing to whatever is a bit more convenient and more details keep on getting added every time.

[NaCl]

I'm pretty tired right now so I'm just going to make a post and I'll talk more later on.

I probably should be trying more but the unwnd lynch made me look even less at trying to find scum and I strongly feel like we just need to lynch the people that are scummier and we'll probably win.

My townblock of people I really don't want to lynch is Eddie/Oka/DDL/S_S/ND and Amrun if I'm miscounting and that's not enough.

Eddie and Oka are obvious.
DDL and S_S are both very likely town because they did a cool gambit that led to no deaths last night. I'm doc by the way. On DDL last night.
Among the two I feel more strongly about S_S. In particular, when he claimed neighbors with me, that was a really towny thing to do because if he was scum it would have restricted him from being able to kill me whereas he could have just claimed his actual hood and had me die. DDL still feels pretty town to me for the whole thing, though.
ND feels like she's been genuinely trying to find scum with a level of energy that shows her townyness and is being pretty open with her thoughts.
Amrun is because in Assassins me and Pops did a bunch of scumreading each other as theatre but didn't actually push each other that hard, and it doesn't feel like that here. This felt more real and her behaviour in general looks towny.

I've barely skimmed over all that's happened since the start of day, though, I need to look back at that.

[NaCl]

I'm not going to townread you for randomly tunnelling on me and pushing me on a case that was wrong with no real justification.

I think all the people in that list are townier than you.

[NaCl]

@NaCl (and @SS maybe?)

Spoiler: Not game solving related advice

I just want to post this because it could have been a pretty significant difference. Purely as advice for future games. Just the full explanation to what Hectic and I previously said.

Doing a gambit like that is fine. 1 scum alive, open setup, there is close to 0 risk. The worst case is you are nightkilled, DDL is confirmed not the doc, and that's that. Same thing that would have happened without the gambit. I'd say its a good play, props to you or SS (if he's town ) for thinking of it.

The problem is, the follow through. You are not supposed to put a save on DDL there unless you are close to 100% confident he is town (which I don't think you should be here, but in general). Landing a save does not earn town another kill. If nobody dies, it confirms that scum is SS or DDL. If you or I or Oka or somebody else dies, that would not have been preventable by saving DDL. If DDL dies, it removes a slot from the PoE, which is effectively another kill gifted to us by the mafia. It is a good thing for DDL to die there! We are at a PoE of 6 with him alive, and still only have 5 kills.

Now, assume you do think DDL is lock town and put a save on him, and nobody dies - what happened this game. You'll notice DDL did not start the day claiming not-doc. That's because outing there is bad. You are now in the world where you are aiming for a second save, most likely on SS but myself or Oka is also possible. The role cop is dead, so they cannot hunt the real doc. The second save buys us that 6th kill. Again, the worst case is you die, and we figure out what happened regardless of SS' alignment. The only time you out today is if you are close to being lynched. Both myself and Oka (the ICs) had said we think you are town / the last slot in the PoE, which is actually the sweet spot because you are not townie enough to get nightkilled randomly and you are not scummy enough to get lynched. DDL is obviously going to defend you as well. Nobody is going to strongman a lynch against the 3 ICs. You were not in danger of dying today. Outing does not actually have any benefit. We are actually worse off than I thought we were by a little bit, because I think independently you were townier than DDL is.

You've played a pretty good game dude, no beef. Just explaining what the mistake and follow up mistake was was so it doesn't happen in another game.

Ugh, yeah, I should have put more thought into it. I felt like DDL was pretty townie but now I feel kind of unsure. Thanks for the advice. Yeah, if I had to do it again, I should not be protecting anyone, that was a mistake.

My pool is strictly in (pisskop, hectic, Bob) but subjected more heavy screening

hooo doodles. hang on to your horses.

who did you doc?

@DDL, do not answer this.

This question is antitown, since you know doc is indecisive.

Um scum also know this?

Oh right.

UNVOTE:

So they didn’t just give up then, town outsmarted them.

welllllllllll

in theory a nokill and a poor doc would fake conf a scum

Yes but I’m pretty sure DDL is never scum here. Now if it were someone possibly in my PoE, I’d obviously be a lot more worried, which is why I think both DDL and SS are town here.

And why couldn’t scum!DDL NK someone? It’s not like anyone would have confiscumed him for that anyway. No, I think Scum!DDL 100% kills NaCl here because only NaCl, DDL and SS knew NaCl had to be doc, so no NK, I think probably clears them both.

No, because killing me would indicate that there is scum in S_S/DDL. While it is possible that there isn't due to unwnd investigating me, I don't consider myself to be a high priority target to investigate by unwnd (to be fair, if he didn't read the game he might do that, but he has his TM team and his other scumpartner so I doubt it). So if there was scum in there, they couldn't kill me because that would point right to them.

All in all though, it's pretty NAI because scum inside or outside the neighbourhood has the same chance of acting in that way (assuming they believe the DDL claim if they're out of it).

Anyways, I'm not too picky on the order. Of those 4 that everyone wants I'm least convinced on bob but all the others seem decent choices to me.
VOTE: Pisskop
L-1
I'm pretty good with ending the game (okay, maybe just the day).

[NaCl]

Why am I still here?

[NaCl]

It was in jest, Eddie. I know it's completely unreasonable to think there's another layer to this doc gambit. I would never kill Oka there, it's a newbish kill that kinda rules out Titus and Amrun even more as scum, and points more towards me scum since I'm relatively new here. That's ignoring the fact you risk getting blocked and giving town an extra lynch.

Bob posting that VC reminded me both pops and Krazy were off my 7 wagon. I'd be surprised if all 3 stayed off it. But Bob, you're asking some open ended questions here but what's YOUR conclusion from that VCA?

This post right here gives me the creeps.
"I would never make this kill and it's trying to frame me."
Assuming that there is a doc gambit is something that is a reasonable explanation for killing Oka. I mean, the other explanation is that they're being suspected by Oka and killed him to...gain a day or something? Because most people had the same kind of consensus. It's possible the kill is to frame Elsa more than anyone else? But that's fairly flat reasoning.
Also I don't really think a "newbish" kill is something anyone would make, as they have 3 people they could talk to and go over their kill targets with during the night.

I'm still pretty confused on why such a kill would happen, so if someone has an idea I do want to hear it. It would help me find scum, I think. Right now it points right back at Hectic but I'm also worried it's trying to push me to go after him again. And independent of his post, I think the kill points away from Hectic.

Why am I still here?

My bet is you healed Oka so they shot her over you? Where did you guys disagree?

I'm not sure if you're joking or something but I don't get what you're saying here. But I healed DDL on night 2. I'm not saying my N3 target, of course.

[NaCl]

VOTE: Hectic

I prefer this to bob, and I don't really want Elsa anymore.
I agree she's not really doing anything, but is the scum move to just kill the person who was suspecting you a bunch yesterday and then just...not do anything afterwards? I don't really see how it's supposed to get anywhere.

[NaCl]

Well, I don't really have much to say regarding my wagon. I don't think it's wrong to leave me out of the "worst-case last 4" people to be alive, as I hadn't been too active in the first 2 days and got both scum then so anything I can really do is not too alignment-indicative.

But I'll get my thoughts out right now before I die.
So first of all I'd been thinking a bunch about the Okapoka kill, but I couldn't really discuss it without outing that I wasn't the doc.
To me it seems like that was someone thinking that I wasn't the doc or at least being unsure enough to not kill me. At the time, we were on evens, so if I was not the doc and I was protected, then that would put things into odds. That's why I didn't really think Elsa was scum yesterday, because the kill doesn't really help in that situation without doing something else to get out of it. I think that there's someone that's not in the previously "General lynch pool" who is scum and getting another lynch is likely to put them into there, as they're just outside it.

Hectic still worries me because his posts yesterday were TMI regarding the reasoning for the Okapoka kill, when he shouldn't have known it. But on the other hand I also do dumb gambits like this in nearly every town game of mine. If he hadn't had said anything yesterday then I actually think the kill would have pointed away from him because he was in the lynch pool.
I also have thoughts on DDL which I wasn't able to talk about before and I'm worried that he's the actual scum. I don't feel as confident in it but I do just want to talk about what happened in the neighbourhood in case. Pretty much ever since S_S claimed to be in a neighbourhood with me, like half of DDL's posts in the neighbourhood have been saying "I'm pretty sure you're town", like every time...kind of like LAMIST but for me? We haven't been talking much in the neighbourhood but most of his posts have been like this.

But right now I think scum is one of 2 different scenarios.
1. They were unsure if I was the doc or not and found out yesterday after Eddie pretty much yelled "HEY NACL ISN'T THE DOC" all of yesterday, then the scum killed S_S. I don't really think this is Bob because he was pretty scumread and I think that at that point scum would have to gamble on the N3 kill. Desperate scum gamble, safe scum stay safe. I also don't think Nancy is scum in this situation because she's everyone's(?) strongest townread and if she's scum I doubt she'd be lynched either way, even if she failed her N3 kill. Between Amrun and Titus in this situation, I think it points to Titus as she might have lost her chance to push me as a mislynch but it could just be Hectic. I would have preferred to lynch Hectic or Bob over Elsa yesterday because I felt more confident it's not Elsa compared to Bob.
2. DDL is scum who tried to pocket me and knew everything from the start. I think this is less likely though, because killing me on N3 was probably a better play to "clear" him some more. I'm mostly just worried about him from our interactions in the neighborhood.

So I'd say that after I flip town, the lynches should be in DDL, Titus, Bob, and Hectic. I don't like that I have too many people in there so if I have to remove one person it's probably Bob, I don't think it fits with the Okapoka kill.

Like right now I think it's in scenario 1 more likely than it is in 2, because DDL could have killed me before (or failed to kill) and appeared townier for it in either case. So I guess it's Hectic and Titus but I don't really like it.

[NaCl]

We only have 3 lynches.

Yeah, which is why I said my 2 choices for who dies apart from me. The level of confidence on Bob isn't that much greater but it is greater. And I've changed my mind on Titus but I don't see the Okapoka kill coming from Bob, I don't see it coming from DDL, and if I'm wrong on Hectic I'm not really sure who it is. But Titus had been scumreading me all game and if she was scum she probably would have hammered me already.

I can't see NaCl scum and the shot on me whiffing

If NaCl is scum and knows SS is the doc night 2, killing him kinda incriminate him. So maybe he goes for the IC Oka kill instead which gets blocked. And then targets him again for the guaranteed kill in night 3.

Besides the fact that I'm not scum, I don't think S_S would have protected Oka over DDL in that situation. And S_S didn't no protect, as if that was the case he would have just revealed as the real doc and we'd have lynched DDL immediately on D3.

Wait, but why did you claim doc yesterday in the first place, NaCl?

I claimed it D3 in order to bait the kill or get protected again, whatever S_S decided.

as of now

i think the 3 kills are bob / hectic / nacl

if anybody has a strong preference to swap that pool, speak up. swapping yourself out is not an option.

I don't really think bob should be in there, but I'm still not sure who should go instead. I don't see bob scum for the reason that the Okapoka kill doesn't make sense, it's more likely to come from safe scum over cornered scum. I guess it's most likely DDL out of who remains but I feel much better about Hectic.

Also, I hope no one is buying this whole theory that I (or for that matter, any scum) targeted Okapoka N2. Because I don't think S_S is bad enough to do that protect in that situation over DDL, and I can see it happening that the following day after my townflip Hectic uses this to push on DDL.

[NaCl]

remind me why bob okapopa doesn't make sense?

Like I don't see why scum wouldn't risk killing me or going for S_S if they thought it was a gambit. Okapoka is a kill that makes more sense if scum thought I was lying or had a reasonable chance of lying, and also was not everyone's top suspect. Bob was pretty heavily scumread at the time and I would have expected scum Bob to have made a shot on trying to kill either me or S_S under those assumptions because unless anyone went after Okapoka for his opinions, killing the doc was the strictly better play. If you're in the lynchpool already, you're already pretty screwed if you get blocked again, and Okapoka would be safer, whereas if you're outside the lynchpool and you get blocked again it's far more dangerous. And bob was pretty deep inside the lynchpool.

We only have 3 lynches.

Yeah, which is why I said my 2 choices for who dies apart from me. The level of confidence on Bob isn't that much greater but it is greater. And I've changed my mind on Titus but I don't see the Okapoka kill coming from Bob, I don't see it coming from DDL, and if I'm wrong on Hectic I'm not really sure who it is. But Titus had been scumreading me all game and if she was scum she probably would have hammered me already.

I can't see NaCl scum and the shot on me whiffing

If NaCl is scum and knows SS is the doc night 2, killing him kinda incriminate him. So maybe he goes for the IC Oka kill instead which gets blocked. And then targets him again for the guaranteed kill in night 3.

Besides the fact that I'm not scum, I don't think S_S would have protected Oka over DDL in that situation. And S_S didn't no protect, as if that was the case he would have just revealed as the real doc and we'd have lynched DDL immediately on D3.

Wait, but why did you claim doc yesterday in the first place, NaCl?

I claimed it D3 in order to bait the kill or get protected again, whatever S_S decided.

as of now

i think the 3 kills are bob / hectic / nacl

if anybody has a strong preference to swap that pool, speak up. swapping yourself out is not an option.

I don't really think bob should be in there, but I'm still not sure who should go instead. I don't see bob scum for the reason that the Okapoka kill doesn't make sense, it's more likely to come from safe scum over cornered scum. I guess it's most likely DDL out of who remains but I feel much better about Hectic.

Also, I hope no one is buying this whole theory that I (or for that matter, any scum) targeted Okapoka N2. Because I don't think S_S is bad enough to do that protect in that situation over DDL, and I can see it happening that the following day after my townflip Hectic uses this to push on DDL.

nacl why do you think smart would not of protected oka

Okay, so on N2 S_S should have either no-protected or protected DDL. He didn't no-protect because when I claimed I protected DDL he didn't contradict me. And he specifically arranged things so that DDL would be assumed to be doc, so I don't see why he would protect Okapoka instead. Supposing scum had attacked Okapoka, this would give DDL less information and I don't really see why scum would pick Okapoka over DDL in that situation.

nacl at teh time of pops lynch what was your view on her and why were you not interested in being on her lynch

I was trying to look more on her interaction between her and Eddie in the PT but neither of them answered my question and then I wasn't around at the time the lynch actually happened.

[NaCl]

I don't get your post at all nacl. Can you just replace your post of Bob with hectic too tehn?

I agree that it can point to hectic as well, I think it applies less to him, as he felt more townread than bob was and could have tried to push himself one back down to just outside the lynch order, while Bob would probably not be able to do that. Also Hectic's posts yesterday regarding the doc gambit made me more suspicious of him. I don't really know if he was fishing for the response because he pretty much got the confirmation that I wasn't the doc in the first reply.

Like what I'm saying is that I think the Okapoka kill came from scum who were in a safe position but Bob probably needed to do something risky to live. Like right now everyone's going after me since S_S died, and I think I'd look worse if it had happened yesterday--and it would look bad for for him, if I'd been the doc. And if scum was being targeted, why not just try to kill one of us and get the other one lynched. It's a risky play but if they're going to be lynched like 90% anyways in the next little while, scum would have made the shot in there. And that bob was like everyone's top pick apart from Elsa, and I don't think Hectic was really as suspected by people as much.