TM2020 | Untrod Tripod Destroys Anime! | Endgame

[mastina]

Hi guys I am a mason.

[mastina]

I've already lost interest in this discussion about UT destroying anime

Why don't we all just vote Jingle instead?

That's the Scum's job.

[mastina]

Hi guys I am a mason.

OH!

I have some damaged brickwork in the NW corner of my new house. Can you give me an estimate? I think there's 4 bricks that need to be replaced.

Will get back to you on this.

[mastina]

mastina, what's your pre-event write-up about me?

Mate I was too busy cramming in 20 scummy noms before their deadline. I didn't do that, not least of all because I was expecting to get town in all games anyway but especially my own.

[mastina]

Hi, I am a mason with mastina

Sssh Mena, we're meant to keep that secret.

[mastina]

Does skitter have any early gut reads @jjh

I dunno if we're actually reading each others' games yet tbh

Skitter mostly was just a bit more confused than I was about certain flavour things

Fun fact, I haven't checked my pt because SOME fuck decided to make the stupid ass decision to make this forum unreadable when not logged in despite literally every single past team mafia allowing that and my playstyle being heavily reliant on reading offline so whoever made that call gave me a big huge gigantic fuck you, due to it utterly fucking up my approach. It's literally FORCING me to phonepost, which I can not switch tabs in to check in with my teammates.

The moment I had the horrific realization that this forum required to log in, I realized that my effectiveness in tm would be literally 25% of what it otherwise would be. (Yes, 75% of my skills come from offline reading. Anyone who knows me well can verify that, and thus can confirm that team mafia forum requiring that you log in is a big gigantic fuck you to me.)

[mastina]

Although realistically I think I may just try to get a read on mastina and then sheep her on you

jjh is going to be nightkilled a good solid 40% of the time here.
Jingle is a nightkill 80% of the time here.

The only reasons why those percentages aren't higher is due to the presence of legends such as hito.

This, I actually DID talk to my team about and can share with you once I am home from dance.

[mastina]

In seriousness I am, for once, torn over whether or not I should be claiming a thing now as a mechanically optimal play

I for one have no doubts about my role.

[mastina]

It's okay, mastina, he already slipped not masons with you when he said he had to get a read on you before sheeping you on jj.

We know you're in separate masonries.

Shit, better combine them then.

[mastina]

AlsoVOTE: Bitmap.
This is rc coaching a scumbuddy on how to play scum.

[mastina]

mastina, trying to lynch my hydra out of the game on D1 is very pro-scum.

Sorry but fearmongering off of RC's scumhunting prowess in a game that is this stacked with talented players isn't something which will keep me from pursuing scumreads.

honestly I'm not worried about mastina she'll be blatantly town or not blatantly town

Or blatantly conftown.

Anyway, am home, so can share the stuff I said before:

Flavor Leaf

Jingle

RCEngima Something_Smart
^This is singlehandedly the best team in the game bar none and Jingle in particular is a godsend. Flavor Leaf doesn't really contribute anything to this game to be honest, but 3/4 top-tier players is still more than enough. They are probably going to eat the nightkill as a consequence. Like, solidly 80+% N1 nightkill, but even if not a very likely N2+ nightkill.

davesaz Formerfish Elsa Jay

Gamma Emerald

^Honestly none of these players strike me as particularly nightkillable.

popsofctown wgeurts

Alisae

chennisden
^Everyone on this team is incredibly nightkillable. Honestly the main reason why they wouldn't be nightkilled is just because there are higher priority nightkills + Alisae's natural toxicity could make the scumteam decide to leave em alive. But the natural skill of pops et all might be enough to counterbalance that.

Vex Vience okapoka

chemist1422

tris
^Nobody in this team strikes me as particularly nightkillable.

MariaR Krazy

Shadoweh

Dunnstral
^Everyone on this team is amazing so they are a very high priority nightkill, the only reason they wouldn't die is if someone who is an even HIGHER priority nightkill died first.

hitogoroshi

Gammagooey KittyMo Plum
^If Jingle's team isn't the best, it would be purely because hito's team would be. They are legends, oldguard but incredibly good at the game. The one and only reason they wouldn't die is if the scumteam were made of newbs who weren't familiar with them.

Cephrir

Klick

DeasVail Bellaphant
^Klick is honestly a bit of a weak link on the team which

probably

keeps him alive, but there's a chance he dies due to the sheer skill of the team overall.

RadiantCowbells northsidegal GuyInFreezer

Bitmap

^Similar to the Klick team, solid overall but Bitmap is hands-down the weak link. Probably going to live but chance to die to remove the likes of RC/nsg.

Volpe14

Ofrhz

Pisskop teacher
^Why would anyone from this team be nightkilled? Nobody on it is worth it.

gobbledygook

Menalque

bob3141 EspressoPatronum
^Menalque is the best player from this team hands-down. There's a small risk that he dies, but my money's on him living simply due to other players presenting a larger, more credible threat.

skitter30 mathdino Almost50

jjh927

^This is a God-tiered team and is going to eat a nightkill guaranteed.

Farkran Dongempire

Kerset

NaCl
^Nobody on this team is worth removing from the game via nightkill.


So that's my basic rundown there.

[mastina]

Can we win

Easy win: don't fucking lynch one of the best damn players in the game who is one of your key power roles.

[mastina]

mastina, can you stop making funny jokes? My team is dying of laughter in the discord channels.

Also wow, you've completely neglected the game to stroke the e-peen of other players while the rest of us are actually trying to solve this game. You and your team are honestly a true inspiration of what it's like to not be pro-town in this game.

Also, please stop stroking hito's ego. He has scum equity that a lot of players/teams have recognized and yet you completely ignore.

Also, please don't infer that I need coaching as scum. Scum is not hard. Town is much harder to play as and I'm leveraging my team to actually work and solve this game unlike you who wants to make a popularity list.

Free tip: bashing on me is the worst possible strategy for dissuading me, particularly because you're guilty of the very thing that you're accusing hito of doing.

[mastina]

mastina, can you stop making funny jokes? My team is dying of laughter in the discord channels.

Also wow, you've completely neglected the game to stroke the e-peen of other players while the rest of us are actually trying to solve this game. You and your team are honestly a true inspiration of what it's like to not be pro-town in this game.

Also, please stop stroking hito's ego. He has scum equity that a lot of players/teams have recognized and yet you completely ignore.

Also, please don't infer that I need coaching as scum. Scum is not hard. Town is much harder to play as and I'm leveraging my team to actually work and solve this game unlike you who wants to make a popularity list.

don't get into this fight with mastina
- its unproductive
- you're wasting your energy
- thread health goes down
- its extremely petty

only if mastina doesn't reach endgame

I'm not gonna say delusionally that I will die N1, but it is a given that the only way I don't eat a nightkill eventually is if we lynch all the scum before they get the chance to off me.

[mastina]

Mastina, I take it you don't consider RC to be a particularly strong Mafia player?

Quite the opposite; I have incredible respect for his talent regardless of his alignment and it is this respect which contributes to my scumread on his slot.

There's multiple reasons for the scumread so it is not exclusively respect-driven, but one of the many contributing factors to the scumread is that respect.

[mastina]

So mastina, who is the scum,

Well Bitmap is a given.

My first instinct for a second is Kerset; if I had to guess a third it'd be you.

But I'm not gonna delude myself into pretending that that is in any way remotely a likely solve, considering
-It is, by far, too obvious, and,
-It is also a solve made up exclusively of the weaker players in this game, which defies probability.

In all probability, there's going to be at least one strong player who rolled scum, e.g. hito, Jingle, jjh, Shadoweh, etc. But I sure as fuck won't be able to catch them on D1 so instead of focusing on trying to catch the strong scum that I'll never identify, my efforts are best spent honing in on the weaker scum who I CAN identity.

[mastina]

BTW to give a basic rundown of where I'm at:
I am deliberately avoiding trying to read Jingle and jjh. Those are reads I trust to be sorted out with time, and trying would be a waste of time right now.
I am unintentionally doing the same for Ali--Jingle and jjh I adapted this approach deliberately for, but I realized that I unintentionally subconsciously started treating Ali the same way, putting no effort into reading em.

It is alarming that I cannot remember Gamma posting, so there's a chance that he's scum as a result.

Menalque and Chemist are my only real townreads.
Hito I am ambivalent about, but lean town overall.
Shadoweh is also ambivalent, but with zero leaning.
I haven't been able to get a read on ofhrz yet, but unlike Ali that's not due to lack of trying, he's just an utter blank.
And I mentioned my scumreads.

[mastina]

Can we win

Easy win: don't fucking lynch one of the best damn players in the game who is one of your key power roles.

I'm just confused about this being something you consider posting while also making this push, considering your respect for RC's play:

AlsoVOTE: Bitmap.
This is rc coaching a scumbuddy on how to play scum.

mastina, trying to lynch my hydra out of the game on D1 is very pro-scum.

Sorry but fearmongering off of RC's scumhunting prowess in a game that is this stacked with talented players isn't something which will keep me from pursuing scumreads.

Because both you and hito are missing context; Menalque understands what I was referring to and given that I was speaking to Mena, I had no need to clarify because the intended recipient of my message understands without such a need.

[mastina]

I can dig it.

VOTE: Shadoweh

I changed my mind; the ambivalence about Shadoweh has changed from no lean into a townlean.

[mastina]

BTW to give a brief rundown of the scumread on Bitmap, from strongest reason to weakest:
Blatant projection (guilty of the very thing Bitmap was accusing hito of to a degree far, far more blatant and worse than any of hito's), gut from the chosen approach to the game, where Bitmap is focusing, respect for RC's competency, and vague but most definitely unreliable memory of meta (this not being how I remember Bitmap being as town/feeling like what I remember as being closer to Bitmaps scumgame but as I said, this is weakest for damn good reason).

[mastina]

Because both you and hito are missing context; Menalque understands what I was referring to and given that I was speaking to Mena, I had no need to clarify because the intended recipient of my message understands without such a need.

I don't see how this addresses the apparent inconsistency? Maybe it wasn't clear enough.

Mastina: 'Don't vote out one of the best players in this game'
Also Mastina: 'I have a ton of respect for RC as a player'
Also Mastina: 'We should vote RC's teammate Day 1'

There's no inconsistency.
I was talking to Menalque and making a reference.
I do hold a ton of respect for RC as a player.
But RC is not the player in this game and even if he were he isn't one of the best town players in the game; Jingle, jjh, hito, and maybes in the form of Shadoweh and Menalque are all his equals or superiors.
And even if he were.
Even if he was the best town player in the game.
My initial statement was making a reference to something for Mena; it is not something directly applicable to my stances this game. Because. Like I said. I was talking to Mena specifically there. Making a reference Mena would understand. A reference directed to a specific playwr , is obviously not something which will reflect my stances this game.

That should've been obvious enough.

[mastina]

guilty of the very thing Bitmap was accusing hito of to a degree far

What accusation?

Can't multiquote on my phone, but next post should be plenty proof:

[mastina]

hito is trying way too hard to be town and his tone sounds like scum trying to look town.

I asked him about Jingle but he told me he's too busy playing Fire Emblem.

Guess what Bitmap has been doing?
Exactly what Bitmap accused hito of doing:
Trying way, way, WAY too hard to look town, without actually being town.

Bitmap is doing a bunch of :busywork:, but none of it is actually scumhunting, none of it is sincere. It reeks of being scum trying to look town by putting effort in, but it is very, very obviously forced.

[mastina]

hito is trying way too hard to be town and his tone sounds like scum trying to look town.

I asked him about Jingle but he told me he's too busy playing Fire Emblem.

Guess what Bitmap has been doing?
Exactly what Bitmap accused hito of doing:
Trying way, way, WAY too hard to look town, without actually being town.

Bitmap is doing a bunch of :busywork:, but none of it is actually scumhunting, none of it is sincere. It reeks of being scum trying to look town by putting effort in, but it is very, very obviously forced.

By the way, Bitmap's iso is more than rife enough with content for me to actually case it to better show what I mean.

But this should be obvious enough to anyone who bothers to actually read Bitmap's iso. Reading what I wrote and then reading the iso will show you better than I ever could explain it, but if you're too lazy to check, it ain't too hard to show especially given the short game length.

[mastina]

Yeah but I thought you would have thought voting me would be dumb unless it was part of some scheme

Looking back, I'm not sure why jjh thinks Jingle's vote on him wasn't just random

I'm not really getting reads from rereading this interaction though

You won't, because it is an obvious waste of time, and Bitmap is well aware that it is a waste of time. A waste of time which suggesting looking into is something that sounds productive but which actually isn't.

[mastina]

Also fuck not giving this read.
I didn't mean to develop it and deliberately was trying to avoid making it but it formed anyway in spite of my protests.
Jingle is town.

I would prefer to keep my reasoning for why to myself given just how stupid my revelation on the read is tho.
He's town for a really really dumb reason.

[mastina]

*cough*

I read games I'm not in mate.

[mastina]

I've literally played only 2 scum games since my site hiatus.

I didn't say my memory of your games was recent.
It's almost assuredly pre-hiatus.
I said weakest reason for damn good reasoning.

[mastina]

Ok thanks mastina

definitely

being a town asset using 7 year old games.

You seem interestingly sure that mastina is town. Care to comment?

That is an interesting take but I have a different one which is equally or even more scum-indicative. Interested?

[mastina]

Her play seems eerily similar to another game.

I mean I don't know why you're implying that was a bad game considering I did precisely what I needed to do to help the town win: survive long enough to get off a cop investigation, conftown the right player, eat a nightkill, and set them up to carry.

Not gonna lie yeah it wasn't my best performance in 2019 but it wasn't remotely bad either.

[mastina]

mastina 239 seems like a pretty genuine reads list, don't think scum makes a point out of doing a big reads list this early when half the entries are gonna be "I got nothin' chief'.

Hey in my defense.
Three of those reads were reads I could force (and one has since become an actual read), so I could've had three extra reads which would've pushed the "I got nuthin'" to only a quarter of the playerlist rather than half!
Also game was open for less than 24 hours, that has to count for something in so many nulls.

[mastina]

What is the thread consensus on you chem?

That Chemist is mildly town.

[mastina]

VOTE: gamma

ok you can have a pass d1
gamma posting elsewhere on site is unusual and sketchy

Mate don't you fucking DARE accredit to Menalque what Menalque stole from ME.
Mena wasn't the one who noticed Gamma's (lack of posting); you literally fucking quoted the post where *I* was the one who pointed it out.

[mastina]

I think Klick is leaning town.

Same question goes out to you

Because Bitmap is Klick's scumbuddy.

[mastina]

(tbh Alisae and Bitmap both just get town vibes on effort tell right now, it's classic for a reason)

You know what's also a classic?
A little saying I coined called "effort != alignment".

[mastina]

VOTE: klick

Sure.
VOTE: Klick

[mastina]

mastina you have ten scum tokens to drop into three buckets, bitmap klick gamma. how many do you put in each bucket

Seven on Bitmap, one on each of Klick/Gamma, one on the unlisted Kerset--ideally, I'd remove a token from one of the one-tokens and place it on a second of them, e.g. removing one of the tokens from Klick/Gamma and placing it onto Kerset (if I had to go on suspicions, it'd be Bitmap > Kerset > Klick ~= Gamma), but I've no qualms with voting a scumread even if it is one of my weakest two scumreads because weakest scumread is still scumread and wagon > no wagon, soooo.

I don't see any reason not to vote Klick in spite of Klick not being my strongest scumread.

[mastina]

While it's my first time playing team mafia, I don't think you can just assume a team's strong points are going to be one or two people on the team but rather how they all interact and work together.

Boy oh boy you ARE new to Team Mafia aren't you.

[mastina]

and why are 90% if your posts focused on Mastina

Funny how the people I have scumreads on, seem to be overly focused on me.

Almost as if there's a reason for it.

[mastina]

Because it's basically just what mastina said

I mean I considered commenting on precisely that but I guess since you did it for me...

[mastina]

oops sorry

I'm pretty sure every time I've used a pronoun for ofrhz I've used 'he', so this is something I need to say as well.

[mastina]

Can I interest anyone in a Kerset wagon?

Explicitly so, yes.

[mastina]

Or is there supposedly another reason, if not, please enlighten me

Having a random overly strong focus on someone who is scumreading you, is something that is a not-very-uncommon scumtell.

It's by far not a reliable 100% scum indicator. Player personality plays a huge factor in it, both the person doing the focus and the person being focused on and their histories with each other. (For instance, there's a big difference between a scummer like, sayyyyyy, Ginngie focusing on me, and randomscummerwithalmostzeromastinaexperience, focusing on me.)

It's not even newb-specific; even I to this very day, have that tendency as scum which I usually lack as town.

Players can have an overly strong focus on someone scumreading them as town, especially given the above mentioned factors of personality and history...
...But it is still a scumtell because it is a tell that comes from scum more often than it comes from town, by a rather significant amount.
There's no such thing as a scumtell that is 100% always scum-indicative; most scumtells that are actually scumtells are more in the range of 60-80% scum-indicative.
And that is precisely the percentage I would attribute to this tell's accuracy. Not 100%, but not a low 51% basically-not-a-tell.

It IS a tell, indicative of scum about 60-80% of the time, and a tell that has no experience limit. Newbs can do it, players who have played for ten years can do it.

So is it a lockscum guaranteed indicator that they are scum, no.
IS it an indicator of them being scum? Yes.

[mastina]

It is a first step to discredit bitmap. Just look at mastina.

You're saying...*I*...am discrediting

Bitmap

?

Mate you got those names backwards because one of the reasons why Bitmap is my strongest scumread is that Bitmap has gone out of his way to discredit me.

[mastina]

This was a yes, in case you're rusty on understanding Jingle.

Well shit.

I'm too tired + short on time to do that right now and work tomorrow, but I'll get to it as soon as I can.

The short version: Bitmap's strong focus on me when I am scumreading me + going out of the way to try and discredit me and downplay me as a player, is far more scum indicative and that's what I got.

[mastina]

May as well give a readslist:

Menalque

Jingle

Chemist1422
Shadoweh

ofrhz
hitogoroshi
Alisae


Gamma Emerald


Klick



Kerset



Bitmap

This brought to you by the "I am getting townreads way too easily" tiredposting mastina who is liking ofrhz, hito, and Ali in addition to the previously-mentioned townreads on Shadoweh, Chemist, Jingle, and Menalque.
(jjh as noted is still deliberately excluded.)

[mastina]

It is a first step to discredit bitmap. Just look at mastina.

You're saying...*I*...am discrediting

Bitmap

?

Mate you got those names backwards because one of the reasons why Bitmap is my strongest scumread is that Bitmap has gone out of his way to discredit me.

So tell me where did this started?

So do you want me to quote the first instance of Bitmap discrediting me, or every instance of Bitmap discrediting me?

The former is easy enough to do from a phone, but is pretty useless for anyone; the latter as it'd be quoting half of Bitmaps iso would be impossible to do on my phone but would be considerably more compelling.

[mastina]

No one in this game takes my reads seriously so I stopped tryharding.

Also.
VOTE: Bitmap
I am buying into jjhs narrative that Klick isn't scum with Bitmap.

Bitmap is pretty blatantly scum here and I can reasonably see Klick as town even separate from associatives suggesting that he's innocent.

I'd also vote Kerset, but I very very strongly prefer this vote.

[mastina]

also ig mastina is just town for voting bitmap and saying RC is coaching him?

See that's what I thought too. I just think mastina is playing really bad based on what I saw in Undertale Mafia personally but she's being pro-scum right now.

BTW this would probably be the first post that I would say is discrediting me, but I feel like that there are posts before this which I should still mention as part of the overly strong focus on me.

So, this is the start of the discrediting, but not the start of the overly strong focus on me, which is even earlier in Bitmaps iso.

[mastina]

RC wanted me to pass something to this thread. He said he's pretty sure that Mastina is scum who's getting away with murder since there are people who are willing to buy into her "aaa spooky RC" perspective but hasn't been really interested in pursuing it cause he feels like people knowing the read coming from RC is going to discredit it and bitmap doesn't really feel interested in pushing it by himself because this game is demoralizing and shit.

Yeah there's no way RC takes that stance as town particularly given that I am the polar opposite of scum.

[mastina]

My strongest townreads are bitmap and klick, btw.

I have a need to remedy that.

And now onto RC's serious scumread.
VOTE: hito

hito is trying way too hard to be town and his tone sounds like scum trying to look town.

I asked him about Jingle but he told me he's too busy playing Fire Emblem.

This is projection--Bitmap is in these posts trying way too hard to be town, giving a tone sounding like scum trying to look town. Bitmap made many many posts that were meant to be busywork that looks good on a first glance that fall apart as not being actually sincere when looked at with greater scrutiny.

Spoiler: Examples: tryhard busywork

Why does he cross from just trying as town into trying to look town?

Apparently he thinks hito's tone is all wrong.

Eh i feel like if RC is in a datisi is scum mood he’s probably not gonna answer seriously

Does he have an opinion on me yet?

He only has one serious read and that's scum!hito who's apparently blatantly scum. Everything else is he doesn't care right now.

Correction: Not blatantly scum but reasonably confident. Now he's yelling me on discord for making him look bad.

Also wow, you've completely neglected the game to stroke the e-peen of other players while the rest of us are actually trying to solve this game. Also, please stop stroking hito's ego. He has scum equity that a lot of players/teams have recognized and yet you completely ignore.

Also, please don't infer that I need coaching as scum. Scum is not hard. Town is much harder to play as and I'm leveraging my team to actually work and solve this game unlike you who wants to make a popularity list.

^This post Bitmap outright says that he's deliberately tryharding.

This read was made by the team as a collective. We think you have >rand chance of being scum based on your posts.

And yet, that strong confidence in hito being scum suddenly seems to vanish here:

Not really interested in hito right now.
UNVOTE:

No vote on someone else--no pressuring anywhere else. Just an unvote without any comment. That means that there wasn't any real interest in sorting hito. If there were an interest in actually sorting hito, someone who was allegedly a strong scumread, there would be some kind of followthrough to this:
An explanation of how "greater than random scum equity" changed to "not interested", or an application of interest somewhere else. SOMETHING more, but there was nothing.

Okay then, what do you not like about my posts? Other people have nebulously said they don't like that I stopped posting which is a tondemonai accusation I can't do anything with and strikes me as lazy, but if you have problems with the yasashi words I have gifted you all I can talk to you about that.

All of your posts are you playing defense and focusing on self-image rather than scum hunting. I kind of want you to play offense right now.
I'm a big weeb so I don't care about the yasashi words.

I'd know this quote all too well since it is one of my own; this is exactly what I say when I'm scum displaying false bravado.

Did anyone else find page 3-4 between Jingle and jj to be odd or just me?

This is a comment made to look good and look like it is engagement, which is actually just empty. Bitmap gave no further elaboration. No thoughts on what the alignments of the players in question are, no analysis, no specific posts, no questions for others to look at the interaction, no followthrough.

Just dropping the comment, and leaving it be, with no intent of revisiting it because it was looking good without actually accomplishing anything protown.

I kind of want to vote Jingle or jj. Jingle has been opportunity voting this whole entire game and pages 3-4 make me think it's TvS or SvS. I'm starting to agree with you on the whole Shadoweh read but I'd like some thoughts on Jingle and jj.

Note that Bitmap's vote at this point is still on Shadoweh--Bitmap doesn't move it to actually follow through on the stated Jingle suspicion.

Furthermore, the comment about Jingle's vote being opportunistic is a little bit hypocritical given...

Votecount 1.04
Shadoweh (4): Kerset, Klick, Bitmap, Jingle With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

...That Bitmap was third on the Shadoweh wagon, itself an opportunistic hop-on.

Actually, I'm going to cut to the chase.

Alisae, are you scum using your scum meta like you did in Legends of the Hidden Speakeasy to stomp down your scum buddy Klick so you can get a free pass this game?

This thought is meant to look productive but if this were an actual accusation meant to lead to productive sorting/scumhunting it would be phrased as an actual accusation and probably be accompanied by a vote.

AlsoVOTE: Bitmap.
This is rc coaching a scumbuddy on how to play scum.

Why do you think he'd be coaching me when RC didn't coach his scum teammates in last TM?

For a start, the only game where RC's team had scum other than the game RC was in was Firebringer's game--where RC did give Firebringer feedback. (I realize it's a bit long and 'rc' gives some false positives and there's other names e.g. Cowbells, Radiant, etc. to search for but the comments are there if you want them.)

Coaching was a bit tongue-in-cheek terminology on my point; RC had an investment in Firebringer's game and I was mostly saying that RC had an investment in this game, and that the slot was scum (the two were not directly correlated, i.e., I was not saying "RC is invested in this game because it is a scum slot", so much as I was saying, "The way RC is handling this looks like the way RC would help a scum teammate").

But this was the start of Bitmap's defensiveness.

mastina, trying to lynch my hydra out of the game on D1 is very pro-scum.

Defensiveness against my attack when I was the only one pushing Bitmap harder.

also ig mastina is just town for voting bitmap and saying RC is coaching him?

See that's what I thought too. I just think mastina is playing really bad based on what I saw in Undertale Mafia personally but she's being pro-scum right now.

This was the start of Bitmap's discrediting of me.

Every paragraph of 197 is discrediting of me. To wit,

mastina, can you stop making funny jokes? My team is dying of laughter in the discord channels.

This is a discredit of me, telling me that my content was a joke.

Also wow, you've completely neglected the game to stroke the e-peen of other players while the rest of us are actually trying to solve this game. You and your team are honestly a true inspiration of what it's like to not be pro-town in this game.

This is a discredit of me, saying that I was not doing anything pro-town. For context, Bitmap is referencing a post

I was asked to make

. Jingle

asked

me to deliver the list that I made pregame about the players in the game. I delivered

on his request

what he asked me to give, a basic breakdown of how likely I viewed each player's chances at eating a nightkill and why.

Also, please stop stroking hito's ego. He has scum equity that a lot of players/teams have recognized and yet you completely ignore.

This is a discredit of me, saying my content was doing nothing but ego-stroking.

Also, please don't infer that I need coaching as scum. Scum is not hard. Town is much harder to play as and I'm leveraging my team to actually work and solve this game unlike you who wants to make a popularity list.

This is a discredit of me, saying that the list which I was specifically asked by Jingle to provide, was my sole contribution to the game, when I was doing plenty more aside from that.

mastina, can you stop making funny jokes? My team is dying of laughter in the discord channels.

Also wow, you've completely neglected the game to stroke the e-peen of other players while the rest of us are actually trying to solve this game. You and your team are honestly a true inspiration of what it's like to not be pro-town in this game.

Also, please stop stroking hito's ego. He has scum equity that a lot of players/teams have recognized and yet you completely ignore.

Also, please don't infer that I need coaching as scum. Scum is not hard. Town is much harder to play as and I'm leveraging my team to actually work and solve this game unlike you who wants to make a popularity list.

don't get into this fight with mastina
- its unproductive
- you're wasting your energy
- thread health goes down
- its extremely petty

only if mastina doesn't reach endgame

This is a discredit of me, saying that "mastina is so detrimental to the game that she should be dead before the endgame".

I don't need to confer with my team to know that we'll be extremely unhappy if mastina reaches endgame.

This is a further of the discrediting of me--it would be one thing if Bitmap were taking this stance with the belief that I was scum; that'd make sense. You don't want scum to reach endgame when you are town, that goes without saying. But Bitmap didn't hold that stance; this was a statement meant to dismiss my contributions to the game as worse-than-worthless.

ur too shit at the game that even Shadoweh's team thinks you're a liability to town

This is a discredit of me, saying my contributions to the game are worthless.

respect for RC's competency

This is where everyone in the thread laughs because they know I'm a big RC fanboi if he's town or on my team. In my last scum game, I did everything to discredit RC and un-legitimize his reads. Try again.

I was not saying Bitmap's respect for RC contributed to my scumread of the slot; I was saying my respect for RC contributed to the scumread of the slot. So this was a misrep of my point.

and vague but most definitely unreliable memory of meta (this not being how I remember Bitmap being as town/feeling like what I remember as being closer to Bitmaps scumgame but as I said, this is weakest for damn good reason).

Nice lie. This is the first mafia game I've ever played with you.
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=topics&key ... r_id=28641
2078 was anyone can post so I went in there memeing.

This was attacking the weakest point in my argument rather than addressing the stronger points.
I made it explicitly clear:
-The meta was my weakest point
-It was off of vague memory
-It was from a long time ago
-It was unreliable

I said it myself, it was the point most likely to be wrong of those listed. But I listed more than that. The points that Bitmap chose not to try to address because they're much harder to discredit:

BTW to give a brief rundown of the scumread on Bitmap, from strongest reason to weakest:
Blatant projection (guilty of the very thing Bitmap was accusing hito of to a degree far, far more blatant and worse than any of hito's), gut from the chosen approach to the game, where Bitmap is focusing, respect for RC's competency, and vague but most definitely unreliable memory of meta (this not being how I remember Bitmap being as town/feeling like what I remember as being closer to Bitmaps scumgame but as I said, this is weakest for damn good reason).

Strongest reason to weakest reason.
Bitmap misrepped the second-weakest point and chose to address the weakest point.
Ignoring the blatant projection, the approach to the game, and where he was focusing.

I find it extremely funny that mastina said that Klick is the weakest out of his team but still doing a better job than mastina.

This was a discredit of me.

@mastina:

Message from RC:

He wants you to shut up about him or else he's going to proxy play this game.

This was a discredit of me, as it was implying I was talking exclusively about RC. I did talk about RC when RC was the subject in question, but I did not go out of my way to talk about RC--quite the opposite, I was very specific in mentioning Bitmap over RC.

@mastina:

Message from RC:

He wants you to shut up about him or else he's going to proxy play this game.

@everyone:

If you don't want RC to proxy play this game, RC said please make mastina stfu.

This was a discredit of me, saying I needed to be quiet.
I was not walling.
At the time I was in the bottom-half of players post-wise.
I was not spamming; I was not excessively fluffposting.
There was nothing in my content that warranted shutting up about because I was contributing to the game and Bitmap was implying I wasn't and insisting I wasn't to the point where he actively tried to bully people into getting me to talk less.

foeing people doesn’t work in mafia

fuck

I have a script for u if u want it

Can I get it so I can use it on mastina?

This is a discredit of me, saying my content is not worth reading.

I've literally played only 2 scum games since my site hiatus.

I'm going to have to ask you to clarify which one it is because otherwise you're probably full of shit right now.

Ok thanks mastina

definitely

being a town asset using 7 year old games.

This is discrediting of me because it is pretending that I did not already acknowledge that the meta point was weak, pretending it was in any way stronger than it actually was. I SAID from the getgo that it was my weakest point and probably unreliable, specifically

because

it was old meta from vague memory. (I was phoneposting, no fucking shit I wasn't going to be searching through Bitmap's previous games to confirm.)

Oh no, I definitely get that you think mastina is bad. I just also see what looks like you thinking mastina is bad town. Not scum, bad town.

Her play seems eerily similar to another game.

This was a discredit of me, intended to be saying "mastina this game is sucking as much as she did in another game". (Mind you, I heavily debate that given I am in no way shape or form ashamed of my play in that game. It was admittedly not a stellar performance from me and I had much better games in 2019 but it was far from a bad performance and I did exactly what I needed to for my team to win. But at a surface glance, the implication of Bitmap's point was apparent enough, trying to compare my play this game to a 'bad' game of mine.)

I don't get your cop comment. But I think her push on me was pretty much the the same when I was on the Nymph account and sort of just tunneled it for being "textbook surface level" scummy but not actually scum. I understand that from most people that my town play has been very "textbook surface level" scummy. If you saw how she interacted with my slot in Undertale, that's what I'm referencing.

This is overly defensive of Bitmap and discrediting of my points against Bitmap as being "Bitmap is being textbook scum"--when to the contrary, Bitmap's play this game has been anything but textbook scumplay and that's part of the reason why I am so sure it IS scumplay. None of my points have been about textbook scumplay.

However, the more important part of the post is this:

Also from me, since Jingle made watashi realize that your intentions are very unclear about this, do you think mastina is town or scum here? The Subarashī Watashi me had been ignoring it because I think mastina is jakkan obsessed with catching scum you more then actually seeing scum you, but I'd thought you thought mastina was a scumbutt from comments earlier about not wanting her to get to endgame?

Because according to my team, being extremely scummy and pro-scum is a common thing with mastina. This is my first actual game with mastina so I asked my team for help sorting her.

I mean, your team even agreed to have her quarantined and I assume it's because of her generally negative play.

Aside from this being further discrediting of me by saying my play has been negative,

Why did Bitmap go out of his way to ask his team about me?

Why was I such an important sort, that Bitmap went out of his way to get the opinions of his teammates? nsg's opinion of me is probably the highest of his three teammates with GIF's being neutral-negative and RC's being negative, so that they have a negative viewpoint of me is something that I do believe...but why was it important to get feedback on me?

It's showing an overly strong focus on my push on the slot.

Just because you're playing the best of a sub-optimal strategy, doesn't mean it's the best strategy.

This is a discredit of my content.

I don’t understand why I’m seeing the forum saying to shut the fuck up furry lately.

This is a discredit of my posts, saying that they are not worth reading.

More than that.

You want the ultimate proof Bitmap was discrediting me?
Look no further than

Bitmap's written confession he was doing exactly that

:

How does that differ with how I've been treating mastina yet you have me as a town read?

What was this in reference to?

In fact, I feel like thats the sort of pressure thats applied by scum with the mindset of "how can I make this person look like an idiot as much as possible."

Alisae said that Klick's posts towards me were, "how can I make this person look like an idiot as much as possible".
Bitmap said that he did

precisely this thing

in regards to me.

Bitmap, himself, admitted that he was discrediting me.

Okay then, what do you not like about my posts? Other people have nebulously said they don't like that I stopped posting which is a tondemonai accusation I can't do anything with and strikes me as lazy, but if you have problems with the yasashi words I have gifted you all I can talk to you about that.

All of your posts are you playing defense and focusing on self-image rather than scum hunting. I kind of want you to play offense right now.
I'm a big weeb so I don't care about the yasashi words.

This is also odd; Bitmap stated he wanted to play on the offense...but he had a very strong focus on defense as noted above.

[mastina]

At least one of the people saying I'm not towny enough to be scum is probably scum.

Okay since you're pretty much aware of it I'll just out the reason for it now anyway.

Remember that stupid reason for townreading you I had?

It was more or less "Jingle is being so blatantly obviously opportunistic there's no way that he's actually scum", more or less a too scummy for a competent player to actually be scum argument.

More or less my thought there was that you were deliberately acting scummy and that there were two explanations for it.
Either you were making a 5head 4d chessplay of being scum that was blatantly obviously opportunistic scum, in order to make people

think

that you're town making a strategic maneuver of scumminess...

...Or that you were just making an actual town strategic maneuver of scumminess.

Which I know.
Is a stupid-ass reason for townreading you.
I'm sorry, I couldn't help it. It just kinda...happened.

[mastina]

I had forgotten about the klick townread

I hadn't.
I originally thought, scum defending scumbuddy.
jjh convinced me of the far more likely alternative; scum white knighting a likely mislynch for the free towncred associated with that stance.

[mastina]

I was thinking it's due to the whole starting post where mastina just started shitting on random people when she made that first post.

I did not shit on people.
I was asked by Jingle to give my pregame assessments.
I told him I didn't make them, exactly, because I didn't have the time--however, I did do something vaguely similar in the PT, which I shared: more or less, a tier of "these players are likely to draw nightkills, these players could possibly draw nightkills, these players are not likely to draw nightkills", and these assessments were factoring in both the players in this game overall, and the team the players belong to.

And be honest.
Is there any assessment in that post you'd disagree with?

Spoiler: The post in question

Flavor Leaf

Jingle

RCEngima Something_Smart
^This is singlehandedly the best team in the game bar none and Jingle in particular is a godsend. Flavor Leaf doesn't really contribute anything to this game to be honest, but 3/4 top-tier players is still more than enough. They are probably going to eat the nightkill as a consequence. Like, solidly 80+% N1 nightkill, but even if not a very likely N2+ nightkill.

Jingle is one of the best players in this game--period, end of discussion. RCEnigma is an insanely good player and Something_Smart is a good player. Flavor Leaf doesn't contribute anything useful to this game because of his playstyle not being one which can lend useful strategies to this game. (This says nothing about FL's skills; it is a comment on FL's skills relevant to this game played by Jingle.)

They are hands-down an incredibly-likely nightkill as a consequence.

post 191, mastina"]davesaz Formerfish Elsa Jay

Gamma Emerald

^Honestly none of these players strike me as particularly nightkillable.[/quote] Gamma Emerald almost never eats the mafia nightkill. Elsa Jay doesn't, either. It's incredibly rare for davesaz to eat a nightkill, too. The closest this team has to a nightkillable player is Formerfish, who can and has eaten scum nightkills before...
...But Formerfish is not the player in this game, Gamma Emerald is. And Formerfish being Gamma Emerald's teammate doesn't seem like enough justification for Gamma to ever eat a nightkill. This isn't an insult to the team; it is a simple statement of probability.

post 191, mastina"]popsofctown wgeurts

Alisae

chennisden
^Everyone on this team is incredibly nightkillable. Honestly the main reason why they wouldn't be nightkilled is just because there are higher priority nightkills + Alisae's natural toxicity could make the scumteam decide to leave em alive. But the natural skill of pops et all might be enough to counterbalance that.[/quote] I feel like this analysis is dead-on; everyone on the team including Alisae is incredibly nightkillable, so they as a team are a huge threat. You can argue some are more nightkillable than others but none of them are low-priority kills. The only reason scum wouldn't want to kill Alisae is in spite of Alisae's talent as a scumhunter, eir notable toxicity is a factor that follows em around in almost every single game they've played...and yet, that single reason of keeping Ali alive, of Ali being toxic...is probably not enough for the scumteam to actually keep the slot alive so the slot is likely a nightkill anyway.

That is a compliment, not a detriment.

post 191, mastina"]Vex Vience okapoka

chemist1422

tris
^Nobody in this team strikes me as particularly nightkillable.[/quote] The most nightkillable players on this team are Chemist and tris, and neither of them eat nightkills often. This is not meant as an insult; it is a statement based around observation of their game histories. None of them are nightkilled very often, to my knowledge, so why would their team be killed via Chemist?

post 191, mastina"]MariaR Krazy

Shadoweh

Dunnstral
^Everyone on this team is amazing so they are a very high priority nightkill, the only reason they wouldn't die is if someone who is an even HIGHER priority nightkill died first.[/quote] This is a compliment to everyone on this team as it is a team of incredibly skilled players.

post 191, mastina"]

hitogoroshi

Gammagooey KittyMo Plum
^If Jingle's team isn't the best, it would be purely because hito's team would be. They are legends, oldguard but incredibly good at the game. The one and only reason they wouldn't die is if the scumteam were made of newbs who weren't familiar with them.[/quote] ^This is a statement of hito's team being elite, which is the highest compliment I can give.

post 191, mastina"]Cephrir

Klick

DeasVail Bellaphant
^Klick is honestly a bit of a weak link on the team which

probably

keeps him alive, but there's a chance he dies due to the sheer skill of the team overall.[/quote] This was not calling Klick a shit player. This was saying that of the members on Klick's team, Klick was one of the weaker ones. This is because both Cephrir and DeasVail are legends at the game and Bellaphant is insanely good; Klick is a veteran player but never has had the renown, the fame, the success, attributed to Cephrir and DeasVail who have both won scummies before from their contributions.

It is no insult to be called the weak link on a team, when your team has incredibly strong players on it. For instance, there was no need to have me give my thoughts on myself, but I am unquestionably the weak link on my team with no doubts to be had. That's not an insult towards me; it's a compliment to Pine, Xtoxm, and kuribo.

post 191, mastina"]RadiantCowbells northsidegal GuyInFreezer

Bitmap

^Similar to the Klick team, solid overall but Bitmap is hands-down the weak link. Probably going to live but chance to die to remove the likes of RC/nsg.[/quote] As per above: calling someone the weak link on their team is not calling them shit; calling someone the weak link on their team when their team contains

two Paragon-level scumhunters

and GIF who is a legend, is a statement specifically to the strength of the team and a compliment to how strong the team is.

Bitmap is the weakest player on the team is a statement I feel is objective truth. That doesn't make Bitmap a

weak

player.

post 191, mastina"]Volpe14

Ofrhz

Pisskop teacher
^Why would anyone from this team be nightkilled? Nobody on it is worth it.[/quote] The name on this list most likely to draw a nightkill is pisskop, but even that's not a surefire thing. And pisskop is not the player in this game--pisskop proxying via ofhrz doesn't strike me as something the scum in this game would fear enough to remove ofhrz, ofhrz doesn't strike me as the type to get nightkilled often, and so on and so forth.

This is not calling the team bad.

It is calling them just-not-getting-nightkilled. Saying a team won't get nightkilled doesn't mean they're shit, it just means that they aren't appealing to the scum for nightkilling. And while being appealing to the scum to nightkill is a compliment, a lack of that is not an insult, it's just a lack of a compliment.

post 191, mastina"]gobbledygook

Menalque

bob3141 EspressoPatronum
^Menalque is the best player from this team hands-down. There's a small risk that he dies, but my money's on him living simply due to other players presenting a larger, more credible threat.[/quote] Menalque is a Rising Star nomination, largely from his townplay. The turkey, bob, and EspressoPatronum are not. To say Menalque is the best player from the team seems pretty indisputable. That doesn't insult the abilities of the turkey, bob, or Espresso; it simply compliments the abilities of Mena.

post 191, mastina"]skitter30 mathdino Almost50

jjh927

^This is a God-tiered team and is going to eat a nightkill guaranteed.[/quote]I don't know how to say it any more simply than that. This is the ultimate compliment. If jjh is town this game, he will eat a nightkill because he is a top-tier threat, skitter his teammate is a Paragon nominee this year and she can proxy thoughts through her team incredibly well, Mathdino is a STAR at coordinating his teammates, and Almost50 is also really good at doing that. There's nothing insulting about that and this is the polar opposite of an insult.

post 191, mastina"]Farkran Dongempire

Kerset

NaCl
^Nobody on this team is worth removing from the game via nightkill.[/quote]The simple reason for nobody being worth removing is that with the possible exception of Dongempire, nobody on this team has made a name for themselves yet. I've never heard of Farkran, Kerset, or NaCI before and Dongempire to my knowledge does not have a remarkable history of eating scum nightkills. Even if he did, he's not the player in this game and he's not someone I have pegged as through a proxy being deadly enough to warrant his team's slot being removed.

That isn't an insult which shits on them; it is an assessment of, given the players and teams in this game, the sheer likelihood of them ever being killed, with the objective truth of it being unlikely at the hands of the mafia.

And, to reiterate: I was asked by Jingle to post this, from my PT. It originated from there. (I do admit that the post in the PT wasn't exactly identical. Fear of direct copy-paste violating rules played a part in that, plus my original post contained some coding errors that I fixed in this version, among the modifications made. But the post in the PT conveys similar thoughts. The version in-thread is actually more in-depth than the version from the PT.)

[mastina]

tl;dr on the case in rough order of strength:

Projection
Discrediting
Lack of Follow Through
Defensiveness
Trajectory

Am I wrong in my summation?

Mostly correct but leaves out that Bitmap's team's contributions to this game are incredibly suspect in their nature and an overall focus on looking town without doing anything actually town.
Plus, jjh's assessment of Bitmap's contributions felt on-point; white knighting likely mislynches (namely, Klick) to set up for future towncred.

[mastina]

Most of 612 could be described as: mastina shaded bitmap, bitmap disagreed with that, mastina feels that her reads are discredited

I never shaded Bitmap.
Bitmap did far far FAR more than disagree with my assessment.

So this is a pretty blatant misrep.

Mastina you said by yourself that bitmap was in defense there. What did you expect to see from him? Did you really hope that he won't debunk your theories?

Why were my theories worthy of debunking? Worthy of focusing on and not forming a read off of me from.

Nobody was following me onto Bitmap.

Yet Bitmap went out of his way to 'debunk' my theories.

[mastina]

It was more or less "Jingle is being so blatantly obviously opportunistic there's no way that he's actually scum", more or less a too scummy for a competent player to actually be scum argument.

Hey mastina, what's my opinion on D1 wagons on me?

I know I should know this.
I really really really REALLY should.
I know you expect me to know the answer to this because by all rights I should know the answer to it and have literally no reason to not know the answer because I KNOW that I know it, dammit, so you're not unreasonable in expecting me to know it, either. You have every reason to believe that I would know this because I do, dammit.

But uh.
I can't remember.

[mastina]

All mastina has done this game is talk pretty much exclusively on my slot.

Yep, sure have been focused on your slot.
It's not like I've given reads on most of the players in the game and explained my mindset surrounding them.

Oh wait.
It is.
Off the top of my head: I've given rather extensive thoughts on Jingle, have explained my (lack of) stance on jjh fairly thoroughly, given where my head's been at in regards to Klick, and given a few thoughts on Kerset (although I admit I could do more).
I do admit; I probably could give more explanation to some of my reads--my Chemist read is more or less agreeing with the assessment that this is probably his towngame; I could talk about my Menalque townread some more; I could probably unpack my thoughts on ofhrz, Shadoweh, hito, and Ali more but I admit in the case of them that's more of reads that I don't really want to focus on.

Even with a lack of giving extensive thoughts on those players, though, I haven't shied away from giving reads on them and have done so rather explicitly--even giving reads on players I said I wasn't giving reads on.

[mastina]

If I was Bitmap I'd be demoralized reading this too, with half the players asking for RC's opinions/mentioning RC and the other half asking Bitmap why they think RC's name being involved is a big deal, lol. (ﾉΦωΦ)ﾉ

RC pretty much said this as well. If you guys wanted to have RC help out more, he'd put in more effort and thought. If you guys want him to fuck off, he'll fuck off. However, the more this game progresses, the more that it seems like I'm getting shit on whether or not RC helps me out and sends messages here or plays his own game which is not fair to him.

Btw this is a scum narrative of "woe is me, my slot is getting shit for half of the people wanting more RC and half the people thinking there's too much RC", which isn't reflective of the actual happenings of the game.

I think that Bitmap is scum for factors that have nothing to do with Bitmap's team, but purely from Bitmap's posting in this game being that of a scum player. While there are reasons that Bitmap's team's contributions to this game are scum ones, these augment the existing suspicion--augment, NOT are the fundamental basis of them.

To compare this to a different environment, this is a lot like as if Bitmap were a replacement in a game complaining about people scumreading the former holder of the slot--when the majority of the reasons people are scumreading the slot are from Bitmap's contributions. Where the former holder of the slot might've contributed a little to the scumread, but the scumread is mostly from the actual actions of Bitmap.

That's what I more or less mean here.

[mastina]

So yes it’s possible to treat the game as solo

I believe Pine won't get mad at me for sharing that this game is our team's bottom priority pretty much. It doesn't need my teammates' help so I'm flying solo, too. I'll get their help

eventually

, later in the game, when it's needed, but it isn't needed right now by and large.

[mastina]

Do this but just for my slot

You're in luck--I'm in the same mindset I was when I listed you as a townread!

That is to say, rather notably tired.

This mindset isn't the most productive to explaining things but it's the only mindset I can be in to explain the read since it was a read born of this mindset.

Basically I didn't intentionally have you as deliberately-unsorted, but I noticed that I wasn't making any effort to really sort you.
In my bout of tiredness, when catching up on the game and reading your posts around that time and the ones from shortly before then that were fresh on mind even though I had read them, I basically liked what I was seeing you do in spite of having the knowledge that I probably shouldn't but the gut-townread from what I was seeing was still there all the same.

Your contributions to this game just look town, mostly. Are they? Ehhh...probably not, it wouldn't surprise me if the people who actually know how to read you well would say you've done nothing that is strongly alignment indicative. And not gonna lie some of your earlier posting did look suspicious but in the very-brief "I am scumreading everyone in this game" sort of way where I realize I'm basically not townreading anyone and force a reset of standards to 'okay reset them to null then just work from there'. But the posting around the time I posted the townread on you was posting that I liked the mindset behind of as being something that it looked like it was genuinely trying to solve the game in.

[mastina]

Hey mastina, did you read big four mafia

I believe that game appears in a scummies nomination, yes?

Then it is something I need to read...but as of right now, have yet to. I might've done the most basic bitch of preliminary work on the scummies judging yesterday but I was far far too tired to actually get around to analyzing any of the tough categories last night. (Almost every single category, bar a select few, is an incredibly tough category because there's just so many GOOD candidates and we can only take so many through, so. I need to be fully lucid to give those games the analysis they deserve so I can make the most objective decisions possible rather than my tired-subjective-snap-decisions. Granted, I'd rather make tired-subjective-snap-decisions than no decision at all, but uh. It should go without saying that lucid objective analyzed decisions are superior to tired-subjective-snap-decisions.)

[mastina]

Mastina I would like to hear from xtoxm

I mean I can convey that request to the team but I literally just said that this game is my team's bottom priority and that I'm flying solo. I don't expect that to change until D2 at earliest.

[mastina]

Hey mastina, did you read big four mafia

I believe that game appears in a scummies nomination, yes?

If it did I think you'd have used it to round off your don corleone nom on me which you didn't

Oh.
In that case.
No, I definitely didn't read the game.

[mastina]

Could mean I’m wrong on someone like mastina

Sure are but I'm not the blue-color you're wrong on.

[mastina]

but I kinda assumed you must have read it based on how you're delaying placing me

No, no, the delayed placement is due to a combination of factors.
The aforementioned "you'll probably get nightkilled if you're town"; the fact that getting a read on you so early seems like a waste of time; the fact that your stated approach to the best way to sort you (the "I'll be good regardless of alignment on D1, but look to degradations of quality on future days") is indeed something that resonates true with me; there was at least one more reason for it but I'm having trouble recalling what it was.

Basically I trust you to be sorted easily with enough time so I don't need to spend extra time on you when you're not a high-priority sort. This is team mafia; this is a stacked playerlist, but also filled with players that I have a traditionally-not-so-excellent track record at reliably reading. Trying to read someone who is difficult to read, when there is a high chance that they will be sorted on their own given enough time, when they are not someone who there is an immediate need to sort, seems like a waste of time best spent elsewhere.

To put it another way.

If you are scum I don't expect that there is a critical need to identify you and lynch you on D1.
If you are town I don't expect that there is a critical need to identify you on D1 particularly given that you won't be mislynched in this game in all probability.

You and Jingle were the two players who this applied to. I did accidentally develop a townread on Jingle without trying but have mostly kept myself from forming a too-early townread on you.

If I thought that I was in any way shape or form a high priority nightkill (I would be if I claimed but as long as I'm unclaimed it don't matter how much I softclaim, I aint eating the nightkill, so I'm not a high priority nightkill), I would by necessity form a read on you to the best of my ability; if I thought that sorting you today was a make-or-break the game situation where if I didn't correctly peg you as scum the game would end in a scum win, I would by necessity form a read on you to the best of my ability.

But neither applies so you're someone who, unless a wagon develops on you, is a waste of time to try and sort right now.

[mastina]

Btw I definitely think mastina v bitmap is not a TvT

Great, then you know Bitmap is scum!

like I think bitmap just wanting to use my script to not read mastina’s posts seems more town indicative then scum indicative and bitmap seems to feel like he’s being super marginalized. Like maybe that makes him town but his playstyle is freaking me out

What if I told you.
That Bitmap's "I'm being marginalized!" posts.
Were to serve an agenda to sell a specific narrative of the scumreads on his slot being based around something that they weren't actually based around?

[mastina]

What if I told you that literally no one asked for your opinion

If people don't want my opinion then they should try playing/reading the other games because in this game I am a player and I am going to have opinions on everything.

[mastina]

You know how mastina plays scum right?

Yep!
Do you?
Apparently not.

I realize that this is team mafia with an absurdly high number of players--I told my team before when there were still swaps allowed that if I rolled scum they should swap me out into a towngame because half of the players in team mafia attribute to my scumgame, what the other half of the players in team mafia attribute to my towngame, and vice-versa, so that no matter how I played I would be scumread by half the players in team mafia because the things expected of me as town by some are the very same things others expect of me as scum so I would always have people scumreading me and being scumread as scum would be more devastating for us as a team than me being scumread as town. (Because scum have only three members whereas town has ten and thus scumread as scum is a third of the team dead whereas scumread as town is, IF it ends in a mislynch, only a fifth of the team dead between the mislynch and the scum's nightkill and is potentially useful. My death as scum, not very useful in a team mafia environment; my death as town, could POTENTIALLY be useful in a team mafia environment. Basically.)

And I realize that I literally went a full year (and counting!) without drawing scum so even those who've encountered my scumgame are a bit rusty on it.

And I realize that I have multiple, multiple, MULTIPLE different towngames (and similarly so for scumgames) so what you see as my towngame in one game won't be my towngame in another game even though I shared the common element of the same alignment in both games.

But.

This is pretty damn transparently one of my towngames.

And I'll be honest, it's been such a long time since I last randed scum (like I said--I played something like ~20-40 games last year and got town in every single one of them), so I can't actually say for absolute

certain

how I'd act as scumastina.

But I am still

fairly

sure.
That whatever my scumgame looks like right now.
This aint it.
There are things that I can fake as scum; there are many many many more that I cannot.
Plus, even if I could. They exist one at a time, not all at once; them all existing in a scumgame is impossible.

I'm not going to lie, I can recognize some aspects of my play this game which I know could be seen as maybe possibly scumastina indicators--
...But those indicators are dwarfed by the sheer mountain of reasons why this isn't my scumgame because this isn't something in my scumrange. Vast as my scumrange is, it aint bottomless and I can just

tell

that I am outside of it right now.

I've been avoiding making posts like this because I know that they are a bit of a trap that has, traditionally, dragged me into an ego-war, where it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. People in team mafia expect me to be bad as town, and then I respond to them with a longwinded self-meta rant, and in doing so, by doing that self-meta longwinded rant, I end up being precisely what I was trying to avoid, bad at the game and an overall detriment to the game.

To put it another way:
2019 was a really damn good year for me in my towngames and my towngame got a LOT better during it with me having many many many good performances--not Paragon-nomination-worthy (much as I dreamed), but still really damn good.
And I wanted to show off that, yes, in 2019 I became a much much stronger town player correcting a fair number of my weaknesses.

Yet I know the best way to throw that all out the window.
Toss out all the good, leave only the bad.
Is to make posts like this one so god help me I am praying the fuck that I continue to have the restraint necessary for this to be the

only

egocentric selfmeta spamfest wallpost that I make and that for the rest of the game I can show off the

better

parts of my game.

But to again keep the longest story short:
This is not my scumgame. If you think this is my scumgame, your model of my scumgame is wrong because this is about as far away from my scumgame as is humanly possible.

[mastina]

@mastina

It was more or less "Jingle is being so blatantly obviously opportunistic there's no way that he's actually scum", more or less a too scummy for a competent player to actually be scum argument.

Hey mastina, what's my opinion on D1 wagons on me?

tl;dr on the case in rough order of strength:

Projection
Discrediting
Lack of Follow Through
Defensiveness
Trajectory

Am I wrong in my summation?

I answered both of these?

It was more or less "Jingle is being so blatantly obviously opportunistic there's no way that he's actually scum", more or less a too scummy for a competent player to actually be scum argument.

Hey mastina, what's my opinion on D1 wagons on me?

I know I should know this.
I really really really REALLY should.
I know you expect me to know the answer to this because by all rights I should know the answer to it and have literally no reason to not know the answer because I KNOW that I know it, dammit, so you're not unreasonable in expecting me to know it, either. You have every reason to believe that I would know this because I do, dammit.

But uh.
I can't remember.

tl;dr on the case in rough order of strength:

Projection
Discrediting
Lack of Follow Through
Defensiveness
Trajectory

Am I wrong in my summation?

Mostly correct but leaves out that Bitmap's team's contributions to this game are incredibly suspect in their nature and an overall focus on looking town without doing anything actually town.
Plus, jjh's assessment of Bitmap's contributions felt on-point; white knighting likely mislynches (namely, Klick) to set up for future towncred.

You're not going to get more info than that by quoting those posts again because I said everything I can think of the first time?

[mastina]

I think the idea that Bitmap isn't actually feeling the 'persecution complex' and it's all just a scum ploy is a bit silly.

Who says that they need to be mutually exclusive?

Bitmap can very well perfectly, genuinely, feel shitty about the RC/not RC dilemma--that does not mean that it isn't also a scum ploy to play this feeling up.

The existence of the feeling being real isn't something I really feel like calling into doubt. Maybe it's real, maybe it's not, I don't really care either way.
What Bitmap is doing with the stated feeling is something I want to talk about--because Bitmap is absolutely exploiting it.

[mastina]

Ok so you should know that this game is pretty stressful for me.

And you should know that constantly saying this as a response to the pressure on you is not a valid defense. Doesn't matter if it's true that the game's stressful on you; you are trying to exploit the "this game is stressful for me" narrative to downplay the very valid criticisms of your play this game.

[mastina]

One day I'll learn to read her alignment just from this

Not actually impossible; some people do precisely that!
(It's actually a fairly good way to do it imo. I honestly don't know how to describe the difference between the self-meta as scumastina and the self-meta as town-mastina nor can I actually really identify what it is, but I KNOW that there IS a difference between the two so reading me off of it IS possible.)

[mastina]

(Huh. Decided to count it and if my count wasn't wrong--it was precisely 20 games that I played last year. All of them town. Well, 19 plus a 3p which I was playing as if town, but same thing. )

[mastina]

because you KNOW that I think my scumgame is leagues above my towngame

Uh.
Do I?
I uh.
I'm not sure that I do know this.

AND that my biggest asset as town isn't read strength.

I mean yes your biggest asset is more or less a combination of things but largely mechanics/rolebased deduction more or less where you can gamesolve by looking at multiple different things and weave them together into reads and such to form a gamewinning plan more or less but I don't see how that would make you any less of a threat as town because that's precisely what makes you a threat as town?

[mastina]

Though as an aside I really wanna just tell Jingle my 123 thing and nobody else but there's no way of doing that

I mean if you were a neighborizer it'd be quite easy to accomplish something like that but oh well, roles be what roles be so presumably you're not one and thus can't.

[mastina]

Discrediting mastina is definitely a thing Bitmap has been doing. But that's also not inherently scummy.

Yes it is.

There are three reactions to mastina. There are the people who mesh well with her style (me/jjh) there are the people who can deal with her style (most of the site) and there is Firebringer.

And even Firebringer doesn't discredit me.
Firebringer doesn't like me--he really really doesn't like me. He makes that very readily known. But his criticisms of me are not discrediting.

So strike one against your analysis.

Bitmap is showing all of the indications of a Firebringer.

And this counts as not only strike two, but also strike three.

Two: Bitmap is not Firebringer. Firebringer didn't have this attitude towards me in his first game with me nor even his second. It took like five, ten games we played together for Firebringer to develop the attitude he did. Not one.

Three: Bitmap has shown none of the indicators Firebringer does.

So that should be sufficient counter to me not treating Bitmap the way I treat Firebringer.
Bitmap is showing every sign of being scum.
Not of being Firebringer.

Mastina knows how to work around people who don't want to play ball

And how many of those people who I work around are players that I have scumreads on?

...None?

...Yeah good fucking reason for that. I will play around people who don't want to play ball, when I am townreading them, because I am townreading them.

Defensiveness when getting into a 1v1 as one of the perceived weaker players in this game is similarly laughable.

No. To the contrary. Defensiveness when getting into a 1v1 against one of the perceived weaker players in the game is PRECISELY what makes it suspect in the first place. Defensiveness against a player considered to be elite is understandable, but I wouldn't inherently call it suspect; it is precisely because I am seen as one of the weaker players in the game that defensiveness against me is so out of place.

Scum reading Bitmap because

I

dragged RC into this game is fucking hilarious

This is not something anyone has done yet alone me.
See also: Bitmap's narrative of RC is bullshit.

protecting obvtown Klick is 100% not a scum move here.

It absolutely is when Klick was mislynch bait with a notable wagon and a very real chance of having a lynch go through.

You don't protect a weaker town player people are associating you with as scum, you let them be lynched and then point out that the associations with them are why you were being scumread in the first place.

Yes? And what about Bitmap's approach wasn't this?

Basically, mastina's entire case as to why Bitmap is scum is actually things I did, or things I fully expect mastina to know are town or NAI at best. And mastina is townreading me.

Not really true and even if it were there's a key difference there, Jingle.
Bitmap isn't you.

Things which are a scumtell in general can be not-scumtells or even towntells for specific players; things which are scumtells for one specific player can be towntells for others; etc.

[mastina]

OR were actually caused by me.

Nothing Bitmap did was caused by you.
Not a single thing.

Taking credit for what Bitmap has done is simply put: not possible.
You are completely and entirely irrelevant in terms of what Bitmap has done.

[mastina]

Likely decentralized power. Not a single tentpole setup, but rather a synergy based setup.

Scum power therefore is probably disruptive in nature. (Roleblocker/Rolecop seems the most likely.)

Given the mods, unlikely to be a setup where ridiculous interactions is the key to solving it (see me/Ali/Krazy) but rather something fairly tame.

Probably little to no low talent roles (cop, for example) since this is designed as a measure of skill. Tracker, JK, Doc, etc FAR more likely.

Flavor wise, 3p and multikill are both reasonable, although scum will only have one killing role.

So I've broken this up into five parts to keep this as vague as possible.

My role I believe agrees with at least one of these, is indifferent two I believe two of these, and makes two of these incredibly likely to be incorrect. Two of your five assessments are at least probably if not certainly off-base.

[mastina]

What.
I posted on Sunday.
I might not have been on-site at all yesterday but Sunday to Tuesday isn't two days without posting, it's just one.
How the fuck.

[mastina]

do you have a town post that stood out to you?

The only time I'd have been able to do this was at the time I made the original list.
I can guess. The post was made at 529, it was thus posts before then--the combo of 520/521. 475.
Maybe the fluff posts like 478 and 435, I can townread stuff like that, but I seem to vaguely recall it was game content not fluffposting but I am in the tired mindset now and 478, 435, and similar look town to me now so maybe I was in the tired headspace then and townread them then even though my vague memory recalls it being game-content-posting rather than fluffposting.
465 and 456. 443. 438. 389. 374 + 376. 372. 369.

I could check back further than that but I

think

that's about where the townread started? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was earlier and there was more stuff earlier which contributed, but to my vague memory that seems to be where I recall having it start, around the Klick wagon you more or less started and what you were doing there.

[mastina]

I am kind of caught up but with the corollary that I've been skimming mastina's walls

I've made a grand total of four posts that were walls. One the initial team assessment relevant to this game, one the case on Bitmap, one the response to Jingle's "defense" of Bitmap, and a fourth where I did self-meta.

I haven't been walling this game at all.

mastina, you said this was something you could talk about, so can you

Sure.
Your posts are all incredibly obvtown. Everything you have done is tremendously, insanely, town. You radiate town every single step of the way with everything you have been doing.

So obviously, you are a strong townread.

...

...Except, I'll confess.

Everything I said above is true--you're incredibly obvtown, everything you've done is insanely town, you radiate town every step of the way...
...But I admit there is a lie, in the "so obviously you are a strong townread" part, because I know you're a damn good scum player and probably nothing you've done is truly out of your scum range in spite of just how insanely town it looks.

So why then when I know you are a strong scum player are you still that strong townread?

...Blind faith. I just have faith that you will be so obvtown that you might become conftown.
Mind you, that faith is not absolutely unwavering; on a later day (say, D2), it could be shaken, or it could be confirmed to be worthy and the conviction will deepen. Basically, it's trust that your alignment will be clear given time, while still giving the strong townread because I felt like it I guess.

[mastina]

RC wants to let the game know that he "claims guilty" on hito.

And I think that thought comes from scum.

Speaking of thoughts tho--Xtoxm took a brief look but got bogged down in trying to form reads. He did say Ali looked town, and that mena/chemist/jingle looks concerning, but later Mena stuff looks okay. No thoughts from Pine tho.

[mastina]

Bitmap vs. mastina is the fire at the heart of things, and Shadoweh has the soft condemn of "I think we should ignore it" and at least kinda-sorta implying it's TVT - but without hard comitting to a TR on either one, reaching out to one side or the other, trying to peel voters off their wagons (if no one likes me, that should be pretty doable!), whatever.

Realtalk I did more or less come to the conclusion that in the unlikely event Bitmap were somehow town (he's not), that scum would indeed have at least one person in the middle. Shadoweh was one of the ones I thought of sure enough but I also considered I think it was you and ofhrz?

There were a total of three players who I thought fit the mold and if you assume Bitmap is town (I do not), then that grouping does have significant scum equity.

In contrast, if Bitmap is scum as I assume, that group is incredibly unlikely to contain scum and I would think them all town.

[mastina]

My theory is that mastina!scum is playing in such a way that she feels she needs to be her scumteam's carry.

I have the logs to prove the opposite come postgame and can paraphrase them now for proof of how that's the polar opposite of my approach as scum.

This is a competition. I expect everyone to be trying to carry in order to get those tiebreak points

Honestly legit didn't even remember that was a mechanic.

I do have a desire to do

well

, but I've not been trying to be a carry.

But since you mentioned it.

Justsayin'.

You'll owe me big if I hit scum.

[mastina]

I haven't actually seen mastina scum firsthand in a long time.

Nobody has.
It's been over 20 games without a scumastina role PM so nobody not even me has seen her as scum in a long time.

I think the most recent of those is 2 years old.

I mean that was pretty much the last time I randed scum so it's not really as if that meta's got more recent examples, so much as it is that's literally the most recent you've got because more recent scumgames don't exist.

I don't get scum role PMs anymore for whatever reason. Which I am fine with since I prefer playing town anyway and it allows me to practice my game better anyway.

mastina is bringing up non-existant scum games from before my site flake (over 5 years ago) and the fact that I am sheeping RC.

Funny, I feel like I've addressed these points before.

...Maybe because I have?

[mastina]

(she's more than capable of doing all of this as scum)

I mean I'm really not; in theory sure, scumastina can do anything because theoretically nothing's out of my scum range, but in practice that doesn't hold true because there's a difference between what scumastina could theoretically do and what scumastina actually will do given her capabilities and this is way way WAY outside of my scumrange.

okay but yet I get to be ignored when I called out mastina's shitty push on me? zzzzz

When what you're saying I did wasn't what I actually did?

Yeah.

[mastina]

Talk about those things and tell me why they're something that makes Bitmap town

they defended klick and I'm coming around to klick being town

Defending town does not make a slot town least of all when the defense of the town slot has a greater scum motivation behind it than any possible town motivation.

I think the scum is in {jjh jingle gamma ofhrz mastina}

You would have god-tiered luck if this contained so much as two scum considering I'd consider you incredibly lucky to find so much as one within.

RC's sentiment about mastina capitalizing on a RC-is-scary vibe was pretty close to what I was thinking about mastina concurrently, although I'm not sure that stands up.

Perhaps you should go back to look it up like you did the other thing.

The demoralization of being BOP'd reads as genuine.

Of course it was genuine, that doesn't make it town least of all when it is weaponized to sell a narrative which is objectively demonstrably not true to what has happened in the game.

[mastina]

I still want mastina vigged or lynched because I'm bitmap.

Odd because this sounds an awful lot like something RC asked you to say.

[mastina]

greenflip I'd have to see their reactions

As a hint: when you go, "if it flips green, I don't really have an idea, I'd have to see"...
...Chances are.
It will flip green.

no im in a gladiator fight with mastina

Realtalk, dead serious, if there were a gladiate between you and me where we were the only lynches: you'd lose.

[mastina]

has she posted since she was last here?

mastina.
Unlike some paranoid fucks, the last time I visited the site is public information available by accessing my profile. I'm not a coward who hides my online status so anyone checking my profile can clearly as day see when I was last around.

If you ever doubt its accuracy (which is fair enough, it's not data I'd call particularly reliable), then a simple search of my site history in posting will help to confirm the data. In this case, to answer: as a matter of fact, no.

I was last here Sunday, in this game.
I took Monday off.
I didn't plan on taking Monday off, but I did for whatever god knows stupid reason. Well, there most definitely wasn't a reason. I never once thought, "I'm not going to go on mafiascum today", I just didn't, so I took a one-day unscheduled unplanned break from mafiascum and am behind on everything as a consequence. (And that would be why I am bitter about the prod. I understand if you take two days off, if you're absent for two whole days, getting a prod...but it WASN'T two days. I posted on Sunday, and today is Tuesday. That's ONE day of not posting and I got a fucking prod. Which means I'll have to force a post every single fucking day because of the stupid-ass three prod strike rule and I am not happy about that.)

[mastina]

Who

is

scum on Bitmap redflip? I guess you have your Kerset read, but I remember Kerset -> Bitmap having some "you are fools for this push" elements that seemed a little on the nose for scum/scum. Though I'm sneaking on for like five minutes before I leave for work so no time to actually pull up evidence.

Well Kerset is probably scum regardless but is especially likely to be scum with Bitmap. (Kerset's scumminess is independent of Bitmap's. One flipping green/red doesn't make the other green/red, but as it so happens, yes, I DO think that they are scumbuddies.)

You're correct that that's only 2/3, and the options for the third are either: "This game is easy, it's the Gamma slot" (not very likely, but you never know), or, "The last scum is one of the 'strong' players in the game that I, personally, can't catch on D1...but after one or two scumflips and nightkills and seeing their stances in regards to the flipped players and flipped players stances in regards to them, will be caught later off of these associations and simple poe work" (what I believe).

I wouldn't think I'd be able to catch you, Shadoweh, Jingle, jjh, Alisae, or Menalque if any of you are scum, this early into the game; for me to correctly peg any of you as scum would require flips, night actions, etc. and analysis based off of that.

I said at the beginning of the game pretty much. Statistically speaking, there's a fair chance that at least 1-2 players who're 'strong' are scum this game; I also made it fairly clear that on D1, I wouldn't be able to catch them. One of them is probably scum with Bitmap, with Kerset as the third, but I wouldn't be able to tell you which of them it is until both Bitmap and Kerset have flipped.

That, or if for whatever ungodly reason Bitmap and Kerset both live, circa D3, I could probably make a fairly good guess even with both Bitmap and Kerset alive.

[mastina]

I wouldn't think I'd be able to catch you, Shadoweh, Jingle, jjh, Alisae, or Menalque if any of you are scum, this early into the game; for me to correctly peg any of you as scum would require flips, night actions, etc. and analysis based off of that.

and you tried anyways?

Not really? I'm fairly certain that I made it abundantly clear that I developed those reads by accident: happenstance, not intent.

[mastina]

He has good stances

Then you should have no problem pointing out specific posts containing these good stances, along with specific posts where he explains those stances.

You asked for me to give you specific posts; I think that it's only fair that you return the favor.

[mastina]

No

What was it which you said about me in regards to not giving specific posts?

[mastina]

Mastina

How aware are you of this recurring thing where you do your catch up and you agree with posts I made earlier looking at stuff you want to look at

Somewhat. Not gonna lie: they enabled viewing this forum offline and I have taken liberal advantage of this feature. So I am no longer always blindly posting.

However, sometimes I still am blindly posting and sometimes I am half-blind in that I'll have read PART of the thread, seen something that I wanted to post about, and then posted about it without having read the contents past the post which made me log in in the first place.

Yet more times, I read it all, but I forgot about the later posts until I reread them, having forgotten that they were made even though I read them.

So quite often, I'm not aware, due to one of the above. Me not having read anything; me having read only some things and not everything; me having read everything but having forgotten about the later stuff.

But there are times when I am aware.

I can tell you that in my above series of posting, it was a mixture of the latter two:
This morning, I read everything in the thread at the time, and at home whilst having the capacity to snip quotes, commented on the relevant section of hito's post.

I continued to read the thread after that, and left for work.
At work, I remembered that there was a post that I could comment on, on my phone. I didn't remember the other posts in the thread and even if I had, the conversation had more posts made between when I last read and when I logged in on my phone, and all of those posts, I couldn't have read, so they were posts I had no knowledge of until I quoted them.

So, some of what you've said, yes, I've known about before chiming in with my own version; most, I have not. Including what you said on this page.

[mastina]

No but I mean as a meta thing too

Trying to figure out whether or not the way it occurs can be an alignment tell for one or both of us

Oh, in that case: yes, I've noticed the extreme trend of your arguments being ones that resonate with mine; I am fairly sure that that's a significant contributing factor to my townread of your slot, for better or for worse, in those past games.

Like, in Gamma's game, I had seen you as scum in both Vengeful and Krazys Anime upick, yet in spite of having recently seen your scumgame in both of those, I was adamant that you were still town anyway and I don't remember WHY, but your thoughts resonating with mine is a rather likely candidate.

[mastina]

(Also, I don't remember the reason for the AlivPine scumread either. :fscepalm: )

[mastina]

Do you want to help me analyse Chemist? I want to see how many locktowns I can identify here and he'd be my next possible candidate but I'm aware he's voting you

Skitter seems to have come to different conclusions than I had on almost everything but has only read up to about half the game plus pages 44-46

My basic take: I agree with the players who said that this is his town game; it looks like what I would expect from him as town.

The only way that he wouldn't be town is if he were coasting by and taking convenient stances with no real thought, but while his vote on me was one POSSIBLE indicator of this alarm, literally all of his posting otherwise strongly suggests otherwise.

[mastina]

VOTE: Kerset

My levels of give-a-shit are very low atm, but I grok what jj is putting out here and it doesn't make me scared I'm completely wrong about everything.

Yknow what.
Sure.
VOTE: Kerset.

[mastina]

OK, I finished catching up. Reads:

{Bitmap, Klick} <- TOWN
{Jingle, Mena, Chemist} <- TOWN-LEAN
{hito, Alisae, Shadoweh, Kerset} <- NULL
{ofrhz, jjh} <- SCUM-LEAN
{mastina} <- SCUM

I spent way too long trying to write up an in-depth reads list and only got like halfway-through, then realized it was kind of pointless and a waste of time, which makes me sad. Will probably end up elaborating on these more later, but I'm way too tired as is.

VOTE: mastina

Good fucking god is it actually just really that easy?
Is it really just Bitmap-Kerset-Gammaslot?
Because holy shit.
It sure as fuck feels that way.

[mastina]

Back on page 50--I

could

comment on things (I've read most of the thread) right now. I'm mentally not tired even though physically I am really really tired (to explain: mentally I am acute, aware, lucid, awake, where my brain is firing at almost all cylinders; I am fully capable of doing anything requiring analysis and excessive amounts of typing, but physically my body knows that I should be asleep right now and really wants me to), so because of that, I COULD post right now.

But I really really don't want to because it'd delay my bed time even further when I'm supposed to be up in 4 hours.

I'm required to give game content and this isn't game content though, but I'd like to ask the mod:

Mod: can I have a 48-72 hour or so V/LA?

This would allow me to:
-Go to bed right now rather than get less than three hours of sleep
-Let me attend to Title Fairy duties that I've been meaning to get to for two days but keep on forgetting to do in favor of posting in here
-Let me do Scummies judging which I promised to do on Monday and then promised to do tonight and which I might have even put off for too long in waiting until tomorrow but hopefully it isn't too late then.
-Give me some leeway since I know I have a staff meeting on this Saturday which'll eat up a significant portion of that day.

Since I work tomorrow, I might give this game a phonepost where I give some content, though the first thing I want to comment on would be a wallpost impossible to make on my phone at work. (I want to explain a breakdown of my reads in response to jjh's 1242 which would take way longer than half an hour on a phone, and hito probably wants an answer to his post which I can't cut out the irrelevant parts on my phone, for a start.) Might give phonepost content then with the understanding of I am skipping things that I can't do on my phone in favor of things which I can.

But I also want to instead of spending computer time on this game, spend it on title fairy and scummies judging things, both of which are time-sensitive things.
And I also want to get to sleep right now tonight.
Hope this is okay.

[mastina]

Fucking hell I can't keep my promises worth a fuck. My word is worse than worthless.
I may as well start out by saying Xtoxm did give further thoughts; jjh is near-locktown for him and he supports my/jjh's push on Kerset. He specifically points to 1440 from Mena being town, and actually posted a readslist:
{menalque, jjh, ali}
{chemist, shadoweh, hito, klick}--this one came with the caveat that he's never seen Chemist's scumgame but all of his townreads said that this is out of his scumrange so he's going with it.
{ofhrz, jingle}
{kerset, bitmap, reundo}

He did acknowledge that, yes--he's aware the reads are fairly conformy, and that there's a high chance of scum

somewhere

in the townreads, but has the mindset of "For D1, this is good enough".

I'll be posting my own thoughts on players + reading what I haven't + commenting on what I didn't, momentarily because I am a fucking shitty assed bitch who can't fucking keep her word and stay the fuck away from this game for so much as a day even when I have a free post to do so. I could've not posted today, I could've posted just Xtoxm's reads and not give my own but I am highly negligent to everything I am supposed to do because I'm a piece of shit, so yayyyyy this game gets the love and attention it needs!

[mastina]

I think if I were to make a readslist right now it would look ridiculous because I currently have a reasonably firm TR on everyone in the game who is not those 3 people

It is basically where I am at, yes, because.
Well.
Menalque is a very strong townread because his content oozes, radiates, a pure town vibe--I know his scumplay is good, but I really don't think that this is it and I have faith, trust, that his alignment will be more clear with time anyway.

jjh I know is a read I have tried to deliberately avoid getting but it should be painfully ridiculously obvious that it is a huge townread--jjh's thoughts lining up with my own, and his reasonable nature, his logic, just the resonance and sheer "that's damn good"ness of them, are things that make him very very strongly town. Now, he said it best; if this falls off later, then it would be a red flag to instantly reevaluate his slot. But failing that, if the type of things he is doing today, continue throughout the game...then I am still pretty confident that this is his towngame.

Those two are probably the locktown of locktowns--the reads which I go, "You know, it would take a bout of paranoia of them being hypercompetent scum players to make me so much as for a second consider them scum".

The tier below that is, "These players have about one thing which COULD make them scum...but which are very strongly resonating as not scum".
This tier of strong townread includes Jingle, Chemist, and hitogoroshi (hito might actually deserve to be the above since I don't even remember the thing which could make him scum).

And then comes the tier of "solidly town, but not locktown", which includes ofhrz (who might be in the tier above), Shadoweh, Alisae, and Klick. All of them are still very strongly looking town but have more respectable reasons to doubt them which keep them from being in the strong town pile. Because all of them just feel town that strongly.

When I originally intended to respond to jjh I feel like I was going to be far far far more explainy about all of these reads but right now I'm not feeling like spending that time on it, apologies. But suffice to say. That is townreads on nine players.
The obvious thought is, "Yeah I am probably wrong on one of these townreads and it could be almost any of them".

But while the three names of {Bitmap, Kerset, Reundo} are in the POE scum pile.
Even without the POE.
They're all doing scummy-as-fuck things that feel incredibly highly scum-indicative. All three slots are basically purely scumposting at every step of the way. It just really really strongly feels like those three contain all, or at the very least, most, of the scum. Like, even if one of my townreads IS scum. And thus only a maximum of two within would be scum. I feel very good about there being those two scum in there?

They work individually as scum. One of them as scum, two of them as scum.
They work as a team as scum. Any two-man combo in there is a viable scumteam; they are viable as a three-man scumteam.
Literally everything points to that being the solve.

POE.
Play.
Interactions.

I realize it's not that easy. It's never that easy. It's never so simple as to just be the obvious three as the obvious scumteam. It's always harder than that, there's always deepscum in places we don't look initially.

But for D1.

This is just.
Like.
A really damn good D1 solve?
I want all three names on there dead before anyone else dies to a lynch, because I feel like there's a chance to catch all three scum.
And even if it's only 2/3 of the scum, the last scum will be much easier to locate with two scum dead and a main mislynch removed.
The game does become significantly harder if only 1/3 is scum and not gonna lie we've probably just lost if SOMEHOW in some ungodly realm they all are by some bizzarro world town.
But if so much as 2/3 of them are scum, and I feel like that is just something incredibly likely. With two, or three, of them being scum.
Lynching in them is just...the best thing we can do in every way shape and form?

[mastina]

mastina jingle how are y'all picking up on what jj is doing when even jj doesn't know what jj is doing.

Mostly, experience with him, playstyle synergy, and in part specifically because jjh doesn't know what jjh was doing. (If he did know what he was doing precisely, it wouldn't be as obviously town.)

[mastina]

okay, after conferring my team is sure enough that mastina is town that they want to lynch mastina voters. Although reundo's wagon is 100% town we're suspicious reundo is just posting newbie. (actually Idk what kind of mafia experience he has, ive just seen him play survivor) more inconclusive then leaning either direction. I'm refraining from posting any comments about clubbing seals tbh because I personally disagree with them. >.> Kerset is fine as a wagon if we must

I mean. You agree the wagon on me is suspicious as fuck, yes? (Not a wrong conclusion, by the way!) Welllll...

Votecount 1.19
mastina (4): Bitmap, Kerset, Chemist1422, Reundo Kerset (3): jjh927, Jingle, mastina Reundo (1): Menalque

...Looking at the names on the wagon.
Literally the towniest name there is Chemist and the entire rest of the wagoners sucks ass and even Chemist is pretty fully aware that his vote wasn't the best.

I think there's a good chance that scum is hard defending me because they know I'll flip green and am an easy lynch which gives them a vehicle to push jj and mastina to the wall and control game state.

But I really don't care anymore so... yeah.

At the risk of doing the very thing Bitmap accused me of doing in his narrative which in spite of his narrative to the contrary I wasn't actually doing.
At the risk of

actually

doing the thing I was accused of doing.
As in, this is my first post where I am going to just outright put this forward.
This sounds a lot like a RadiantCowbells post.
Especially since it seems to be a vastly different stance than Bitmap's previously-established stances.
Bitmap has stated he holds scumreads on me and jjh, of at least one of us being scum; here in this post, Bitmap is stating that scum are in his defenders who are going to push his mislynch as an avenue to push jjh/me with the obvious implication that jjh/me are town.
Which, again.
Is either Bitmap holding a contradictory stance.
Or Bitmap not announcing that this post was an RC post.
Either way it's a fairly strong scum-indicator in my opinion.

[mastina]

I didn't actually read much of ali V pine after I died but I recall hearing some people did a similarly bad lynch there

Yeah and if Alisae/Jingle are scum, they would be scum in large part specifically for this--of recognizing that my play here is my towngame, of recognizing that just like in that game there was really no fucking reason behind the suspicion on my slot, of me being wagoned for literally nothing, and choosing to in spite of that similarity, press me as a scumread anyway.

Both are currently townreads in part because tracking their thought processes (I think I read up to some page number in either the high-50s or low-60s so that's about where I am with this recollection), as far as I can tell, they haven't opted for this, more or less. They

have

done this recognition at least partially, even if not fully.

To put it another way and more simply; there was a time where I was entertaining that their pushes on me were them being scum and pushing me in spite of having every reason to know better than that, a la Pink Ball from AliVPine during the time PB pushed me--but both of them have played in a way where if they

were

actually scum, well...like Pink Ball, they realized that was a way that would put them on a fastrack to me catching their ass so they stopped doing it.

So basically the options are, either they are town who didn't do the opportunistic thing and have a real read progression on me...
...Or they are scum who were setting up to do the opportunistic thing on me, but faked a read progression on me when they realized it was an easy way for them to get caught.

I find the former at this time more likely than the latter overall.

[mastina]

imultiple people keep saying this is in her scum range and then mysteriously not following through.

(There's good reason for this. It's called "they are saying things they think are true but can't confirm as true because they actually aren't", more or less. )

mastina is like,
my team thinks she is definitely not town, I don't think she's town.

Her play is just super different then how she's normally like. You can call this a gut feeling ig.
Like maybe this is just how she normally is and I'm just stupid but I really don't think so.
The mastina I remember in AvP was desperate to survive and I recognized that, but had to push it against my own will because Katsuki is a shit player.
She just doesn't feel the same. I feel like I should have been consider the thought of "Yep yep, thats town!mastina" by now and I genuinely haven't had a single moment where I thought "yep, yep, thats town!mastina"

If this were still your stance, I would have

very

strong words to give you--words that would very potentially get me eating a warning for speaking them but which consequences be damned you bet your ass I would give you them. The only reason I am not giving said commentary is I happen to know that this stance of yours

has

changed, so.

You really think scum!Kerset would hard defend a scum slot and not just bus them for ez credit?

Honestly.
It wouldn't surprise me.

[mastina]

Yeah I think scum are going to be active in a gamestate they do not like.

Sorry to say mate but that is rats-ass backwards.

If the state of the game is one scum don't like, and posting only makes the state of the game go further in the direction scum don't want...what will the scum do? Continue to do the thing which pushes the game further and further in the direction the scum don't want the game to go...or do the thing which gives them a chance at getting a gamestate that

is

favorable to them?

If posting does nothing but make the gamestate worse for scum, then scum are inclined to not post in the sadly-very-often-effective strategy of lurking until the suspicion on them dies down, the town caves in to paranoia, and eats themselves alive.

It's only in a gamestate where the town is eating itself alive that scum want to be more active. Their higher activity in "town is eating itself alive" isn't meant to steer the game into a more favorable gamestate, per se, so much as it is, a luxury that they can afford which is a good way to snowball their lead by making their contributions look even better.

Basically--town is on the right track? Lurk until they aren't.
Town isn't on the right track? Post as much as is beneficial to you.

[mastina]

VOTE: Kerset

(For the record I'll be voting whichever of the three has the most votes--I think right now that's Reundo but I'll need to actually read the game to be sure of it past the point I've seen.)

[mastina]

I feel so demotivated to play this game. No one beside me put thoughts in to this. Everyone just make reads based on personal relations and sheep whoever they like. Relation between mastina and jjh is so obviously sinister. Still after 58 pages people are only looking at their personal targets and take no efforts to solve the background. I don't except players to solve this game by now or look away from me. I am rather sure penguin could post all players abilities right here and people would just scroll their eyes through it without reading. Then they would nod get back to their business, without any concern what those abilities were. This is the kind of commitment that people outside of scum agenda have.

Also does anyone need why this is a blatant scumpost described to them or does everyone pretty much know and recognize why it is one? Because I don't feel like spending the time to explain what is prettty damn painfully obviously transparent as day, if everyone gets it, but if SOMEHOW someone out there SOMEHOW doesn't get it I'd be happy to enlighten them.

[mastina]

RCE says bit discrediting is his scum move, FWIW.

I find it funny he says that since I've never played with him when I was scum. Actually the only game we've played together was magical girls afaik.

Can we take a moment to appreciate how in response to a statement of "Bitmap's discrediting is a scum move".
Bitmap counters by discrediting the person making that statement?

[mastina]

@ofrhz, klick, reundo, kerset, mastina I wanna talk to all of u when you’re around

Mate I am a failure at literally everything.

It is 4 am and I have

still

neglected most of my duties.
Not all of them; I've attended to a few things as I was able to.
But most of them I've not done.

Good luck finding a time when I am online and free.
(Especially since I naturally tend to deliberately avoid real-time interactions barring specific exceptions. Like, yes, I know I won a scummie for an 8-hour session of nothing but, but I usually hate doing them and the only reason I didn't avoid it then was basically just purely on a whim by happenstance. There was a significant chance that jam session wouldn't have happened with me in it, in 95% of the times that game was run; we just had the lucky 5% where for whatever reason in spite of me normally avoiding them, I decided by luck to not avoid it.)

she likes the ate
I think Kerset is blatantly lieing

I mean that should be pretty readily apparent yes.

Reundo has straight up scumclaimed

Won't find me disagreeing!

[mastina]

You can't talk to anyone in Europe, and you can't watch European soccer in real time without waking up at 8am on a Saturday. Life is rough.

Fun fact I actually end most of my nights listening to a German streamer before I go to bed and yet I live in Pacific time.

This might have something to do with him starting at a reasonably-early time usually (usually somewhere loosely around midnight? Sometimes much earlier, but not much later), half the time not streaming too late, and even when he does stream too late, half of the time me having no need to go to bed.

(I still don't often get to stay up through all of his stream and I often multitask and I can sometimes turn his volume down to near-zero if I need to listen to someone else more, but you get the idea.) Heck, he's who I'm listening to right now. (I'm lurking tho because he's playing a game that while it's REALLY good listening material, isn't good talking material for me personally tho.)

What I mean by this is, I very very easily can talk to people from those timezones easily, it's just that often they don't.
(Also I totally wake up at like 10 am to catch live broadcasts of the LEC, so.)

[mastina]

VOTE: reundo

Yeah pretty sure Reundo's the largest wagon of the three, so.
VOTE: Reundo.
May potentially be L-1, I've not checked the votes yet but I don't really think it that important to.

[mastina]

Btw to be brief:
I agree with Ali's defense of ofhrz more or less and could defend her in greater detail probably if need be.
I do not think hito's push there is in any way scum-motivated and quite the contrary I think it is a town thought that happens to just be off-base though I admit I'm a bit biased there.

[mastina]

Do you know what does it prove? That your reads are fully based on votes, not the opposite. Bitmap is the only one, who was scumreaded by you BEFORE you were voted by him. Nice coincidence, isn't it?

Nice narrative!
Let's see how well it holds up to reality.
Your narrative: my scumreads on you and the Reundo/Gamma slot only appeared after they voted me.
So let's start with checking where those votes appear:

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: mastina

1238 for the Reundo/Gamma slot, 857 for your slot.

Let's check where my suspicion on your slots started!

So mastina, who is the scum,

Well Bitmap is a given.

My first instinct for a second is Kerset

; if I had to guess a third it'd be you.

Yup, 236 is clearly a post made after 857.

mastina you have ten scum tokens to drop into three buckets, bitmap klick gamma. how many do you put in each bucket

Seven on Bitmap, one on each of Klick/Gamma, one on the unlisted Kerset--ideally, I'd remove a token from one of the one-tokens and place it on a second of them, e.g. removing one of the tokens from Klick/Gamma and placing it onto Kerset (if I had to go on suspicions, it'd be Bitmap > Kerset > Klick ~= Gamma), but I've no qualms with voting a scumread even if it is one of my weakest two scumreads because weakest scumread is still scumread and wagon > no wagon, soooo.

I don't see any reason not to vote Klick in spite of Klick not being my strongest scumread.

391 is clearly made after 857.

Can I interest anyone in a Kerset wagon?

Explicitly so, yes.

471 is clearly after 857.

May as well give a readslist:

Menalque

Jingle

Chemist1422
Shadoweh

ofrhz
hitogoroshi
Alisae


Gamma Emerald


Klick



Kerset



Bitmap

529 is clearly after 857.

VOTE: Bitmap
I'd also vote Kerset, but I very very strongly prefer this vote.

572 was clearly made after 857. So let's check for Reundo's slot before 1238.

It is alarming that I cannot remember Gamma posting, so there's a chance that he's scum as a result.

239 is clearly a post made after 1238. After all if you drop the 1 from 1238, it's immediately one number higher, so clearly this was immediately after!

VOTE: gamma

ok you can have a pass d1
gamma posting elsewhere on site is unusual and sketchy

Mate don't you fucking DARE accredit to Menalque what Menalque stole from ME.
Mena wasn't the one who noticed Gamma's (lack of posting); you literally fucking quoted the post where *I* was the one who pointed it out.

Obviously this was after 1238.

mastina you have ten scum tokens to drop into three buckets, bitmap klick gamma. how many do you put in each bucket

Seven on Bitmap, one on each of Klick/Gamma, one on the unlisted Kerset--ideally, I'd remove a token from one of the one-tokens and place it on a second of them, e.g. removing one of the tokens from Klick/Gamma and placing it onto Kerset (if I had to go on suspicions, it'd be Bitmap > Kerset > Klick ~= Gamma), but I've no qualms with voting a scumread even if it is one of my weakest two scumreads because weakest scumread is still scumread and wagon > no wagon, soooo.

I don't see any reason not to vote Klick in spite of Klick not being my strongest scumread.

This, too, was clearly after 1238. That's how math works, right?

May as well give a readslist:

Menalque

Jingle

Chemist1422
Shadoweh

ofrhz
hitogoroshi
Alisae


Gamma Emerald


Klick



Kerset



Bitmap

Still obviously made after 1238.

Who

is

scum on Bitmap redflip? I guess you have your Kerset read, but I remember Kerset -> Bitmap having some "you are fools for this push" elements that seemed a little on the nose for scum/scum. Though I'm sneaking on for like five minutes before I leave for work so no time to actually pull up evidence.

Well Kerset is probably scum regardless but is especially likely to be scum with Bitmap. (Kerset's scumminess is independent of Bitmap's. One flipping green/red doesn't make the other green/red, but as it so happens, yes, I DO think that they are scumbuddies.)

You're correct that that's only 2/3, and the options for the third are either: "This game is easy, it's the Gamma slot" (not very likely, but you never know), or, "The last scum is one of the 'strong' players in the game that I, personally, can't catch on D1...but after one or two scumflips and nightkills and seeing their stances in regards to the flipped players and flipped players stances in regards to them, will be caught later off of these associations and simple poe work" (what I believe).

Admittedly this is only saying the slot is possible scum, but obviously it, too, was made after 1238.

So obviously, all of my suspicions came from after the slots voted me.

OH WAIT.
No, they didn't.
Every single one of my suspicions voted me

after

I was very vocal about said suspicions on the slot. Not, per your (blatantly not holding up to the facts), after.

[mastina]

Maybe Kerset is scum after all

I mean.
It should be pretty damn obvious.
That when the scum make narratives that don't hold up to actual facts.
And take contradictory stances that have no continuous trajectory to them, swapping to different stances to preserve the above (already falling to shambles) narratives.
And make broad sweeping statements that they can't back up with facts when pressed on the subject.

That yeah.
They're scum.

[mastina]

my role is Domokun, I don't have any abilities outside of my vote (so basically a VT). Sorry about the long wall and my lack of activity overall. The rest of today and tomorrow is a bit sketchy for me, but I'll try to make more time for this game if at all possible.

I am pretty sure this is a scumclaim; does anyone care to venture a guess as to why?

Hint: thinking the game is role madness, isn't the reason why.

[mastina]

I think a Kerset red flip is potentially the best thing that could happen for this game where I'm not sure a Reundo red flip has the same impact. I'm also not sure what either of them flipping green does to my thought processes and I need to consider that.

The thing to consider is not what one of them flipping green means.
One of them green means that the other and Bitmap aren't, and as would be obvious enough, there's scum in the overall town core.
It's only if both flip green that you really need to have a hard-reset of everything and start from scratch.
But that's a bridge we'd cross IF--and I cannot stress how big the 'if' is there--we'd ever come to it.

And given how I'm planning on both Kerset and Reundo flipping red, it's not a bridge I ever expect to cross.

[mastina]

I feel like if there was a thing I'd be able to see it

He's aware that he's at L-1 when he's less than engaged with the thread is my bet, tbh.

Actually, no. It's something else.

Yea lets keep narrative that saying scummy between lines with 0 effort has same weight as push. You know that i was talking about this:

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: Kerset.

VOTE: mastina

VOTE: Reundo

don't toy with semantics by flipping meaning of my post.

Mate if you meant I voted people only after they voted me that is what you should have said. Instead you specifically said I didn't have SCUMREADS on them prior to voting--something that was definitely false.

And by the way?
By the metric of 'stated suspicion', I still have you beat. Because isoing you, the first time you voiced suspicion of me?

jjh927
Klick
Shadoweh
Gamma Emerald
mastina

IF I am being extra extra generous and counting this, 499--still after my 236, 391, and 471.

VOTE: mastina

And then nothing until the vote itself. There's plenty of misrepping my position on Bitmap, there's plenty of accusing me of the very thing Bitmap was doing to me which Bitmap, not me, was guilty of, but there's no lead-up to the vote on me.

[mastina]

Actually, no. It's something else.

Can you not just say what the thing is

Sure.
The phrasing.
Look at the phrasing in your pm.
Look at the phrasing Reundo used.
Notice a discrepancy between the two?

I sure did!
You COULD argue, "mastina, there's such a thing as paraphrasing". My counter: the discrepancy between the claim and the actual wording strongly suggests that it isn't a paraphrase issue and instead is just from outright fabrication.

[mastina]

Show me on the sample role PM what you think is missing, Mastina

Spoiler: Sample Role PM

高倉 陽毬 (Himari Takakura)

Welcome, [username]! You are 高倉 陽毬 (Himari Takakura), a

MafiaScum Anime Avatar Resistance Fighters (MAARF)

member.

Your Abilities

• MAARF Tactical Response Unit
  : During the day phase, you may use this unit to vote to lynch one player.

Your Win Condition

• Make MafiaScum Safe Again
  : You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one MAARF member alive.

Good luck, have fun, and save our Anime Avatars.

As in, "what do you think is missing from Reundo's claim that's in the sample role PM"?
That'd be backwards.
It's what's missing from the sample role PM that is in Reundo's claim.

And as for my claim: my role is Domokun, I don't have any abilities outside of my vote (so basically a VT).

[mastina]

So I feel like the Reundo wagon is extremely lazy and that there's an unusual amount of reaching to have an excuse to lynch an empty slot.

Why not just lynch the slot because it's empty and you have a lot of townreads?

I was under the working impression that the slot being empty and having lots of town reads, and having legitimate reason to suspect the slot, aren't mutually exclusive stances.

The Reundo wagon comes from a number of reasons, half of which are indeed due to the emptiness of it when combined with townreads elsewhere, but I don't think that those reasons are exclusively why the slot is suspect.

The slot is suspicious because:
-Gamma had a long absence from this game before posting, not due to siteflaking, unexplained.
-When Gamma did show up, his contribution was lackluster.
-When the slot was replaced, Reundo took a while to post, did an empty readslist, and disappeared.
-This readlist was incredibly suspect.
-Reundo's follow through shows a disconnect between the readslist and his explanation of it.
-Reundo's VT claim is suspect due to his phrasing not matching the town roles.
-Bad interactions with Bitmap/Kerdet slots.
As a quick incomplete short list of them.

[mastina]

So I feel like the Reundo wagon is extremely lazy and that there's an unusual amount of reaching to have an excuse to lynch an empty slot.

Why not just lynch the slot because it's empty and you have a lot of townreads?

I was under the working impression that the slot being empty and having lots of town reads, and having legitimate reason to suspect the slot, aren't mutually exclusive stances.

The Reundo wagon comes from a number of reasons, half of which are indeed due to the emptiness of it when combined with townreads elsewhere, but I don't think that those reasons are exclusively why the slot is suspect.

The slot is suspicious because:
-Gamma had a long absence from this game before posting, not due to siteflaking, unexplained.
-When Gamma did show up, his contribution was lackluster.
-When the slot was replaced, Reundo took a while to post, did an empty readslist, and disappeared.
-This readlist was incredibly suspect.
-Reundo's follow through shows a disconnect between the readslist and his explanation of it.
-Reundo's VT claim is suspect due to his phrasing not matching the town roles.
-Bad interactions with Bitmap/Kerdet slots.
As a quick incomplete short list of them.

Among the things that I didn't list there, obviously, is the poe factor.

I am not satisfied with this as a case tho, and want to write a better one on a desktop, after I investigate two things which I SUSPECT are true and if so significantly strengthen the case but which I don't KNOW are true.

[mastina]

I've never seen oh my god you suck strategy taken to this limit before. You really do just hate people that want to vote you huh?

I've been pondering whether I should say this tbh but I feel like Kerset majorly townslipped earlier and we shouldn't even be considering voting them.

Your townslip is wrong regardless of Kerset's alignment, guaranteed. Even if Kerset were town (and I stress that that IS a big 'if'), it wouldn't be for your "townslip" and in the far more probable case where Kerset is scum, obviously it need not be said that the slip is bogus.

[mastina]

BTW it should still be readily apparent enough but just to reaffirm for the record:
I am fine with lynching any of Bitmap, Kerset, and Reundo. As long as one of those three is the lynch, I'll be happy, and I will support wagons on any three of them.
However, while I will support a wagon on any of them…
…I only have one vote.

If all three are being wagoned, I can't vote all of them at once; I have to pick and choose which of the three to vote.
In terms of suspicion, my preference would be Bitmap > Kerset > Reundo. In terms of "what if the read is wrong" contingency plans, that is to say, who would I least want to mislynch and who would be the least-damaging mislynch, it's fairly obvious: Bitmap gives more value and is thus the worst mislynch, Reundo the least value thus the best mislynch if we HAD to mislynch.

Which you may note, are inverse standards. If you go by hunting the greatest scumread, which of the two, I favor, lynch Bitmap; if you go by playing worst case scenarios where you assume that the lynched player flips town, damage control says to lynch Reundo.

There is a third standard: Most Information Gained. This is PROBABLY still Bitmap > Kerset > Reundo. Reundo is definitely the least informative for sure, the only debate is Bitmap versus Kerset, which I favor Bitmap as more information overall.

You can pick any one of these as your choice in preference. Largest scumread; most information; least damage caused to town if wrong.

But I, personally, will use an even different metric called:
I'll vote whoever has the most votes.
Right now, that is Reundo.
If two of them are equal in votes, I'll vote preferentially Bitmap > Kerset > Reundo, but my first priority is supporting the largest wagon on one of the three.

[mastina]

I see you changing the post order so you got a pagetop Pengu

if your scumslip is allowed to be used as evidence mastina then I will take my townslip and insist its plausable and in fact something only town in a particular instance would say

I beg your pardon? I do not recall calling anything a scumslip.
If the deal is, "either accept the scumslip and the townslip as real, or accept neither the scumslip nor the townslip as real", then my choice is obviously the latter especially given that I have no memory of calling anything a scumslip so as far as I am concerned, you'd be giving me free ground.

[mastina]

Mod: V/LA for an uncertain time due to snowmageddon 2020.

(Already lost power once, and because my fatass father never bothered to fix it, our UPSes don't actually provide power so SNAP, power out, computer dies instantly.)
When we have power I'll be around; when we don't...well. Limited availability due to limited supplies for posting.
In the mean time tho:
VOTE: Bitmap
Limited supplies still leaves me with the chances to switch.

[mastina]

I have a soft-guilty on Menalque.

I know we were going for the dream in thinking Reundo-Bitmap-Kerset was the winning combo of three scum, and it's still fully possible that that combo is indeed the correct one, this is a soft-guilty, not a hard-guilty, because there is at least one role that Menalque could be which would explain my 'guilty' result on him and turn it from being a damning result into more of a clearing result--but since there

is

the chance I landed on the deepscum,

I want Menalque to roleclaim in his next post.

[mastina]

Wow what an inspired kill never would have seen that coming

lowkey thought you were going to die

One of the wonders of not being around quite so much on D1 is less NK equity

Yo, Mena.
You're online right now, you literally ninja'd me with this post as I was writing mine.
I have a soft guilty on you.
Please claim your role and action immediately if you want to convince me that you're not deepscum caught.

[mastina]

I'm taking the delay in posting between my declared guilty as confirmation it IS a guilty.
There's an old saying by DGB.
Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds; fabricating a convincing fakeclaim takes an eternity.
And this sure looks like the eternity.
VOTE: Menalque

[mastina]

For the record--if my soft-guilty isn't actually a guilty, I'd go for the Bitmap-Kerset dreamteam combo as the scumteam.
If my soft-guilty is actually a guilty on the deepscum, the jjh nightkill makes me still sure that one of Bitmap/Kerset is scum because they were the strongest of jjh's pushes. Forced to guess between the two, I'd guess Bitmap > Kerset because that's where jjh was voting at end of day and focusing a fair amount of his push and that feels like a kill Bitmap is slightly more likely to make, but I could see it as being Kerset easily. Would recommend lynching in there regardless, basically.
It's just that if my guilty is an actual guilty, Mena dies first.

[mastina]

I’m p sure the part you’re getting the soft guilty from is my 1 shot vig

Nice guess.
Wrong choice.

Claim: I am a one-shot Loyal Neighborizer.
Last night, I targeted Menalque. He was not successfully neighborized.

I already checked with the mod--my night action was received and processed correctly.
I know for a fact that jjh didn't target me, because last night I received a gift from someone. (Had jjh roleblocked me, he would've also rolestopped me, preventing that gift from going through.)
Menalque took a guess as to my guilty being gunsmith-related, but he guessed the wrong guilty.

I frankly would've thought that if Menalque didn't have an answer for the guilty, that it was still possible I was roleblocked by the scum, since I heavily, HEAVILY breadcrumbed my role yesterday.

But since Menalque tried to claim a role that would be a soft-guilty to a GUNSMITH, I am PRETTY sure that this is a legit guilty now.

[mastina]

And, yes.
Really.
I'm not fucking fakeclaiming this. I really did rand loyal 1x Neighborizer. There was a damn fucking good reason I had a shit-eating grin on my face earlier.

[mastina]

lol I received the hated modifier cause someone gave me a talisman

I received a talisman N1 which made me bulletproof.

BTW I also have a spicy post of sorts to make, but it was made before I lost my power so I need to update it with my teammates' additional feedback and remove the parts about Alisae (spoilers: I had five figures of interest and Alisae was among them so uhhhh, kinda a weird kill?), but a few immediate cliff notes:
I personally have reasonably good analysis to believe Kerset is town.
I personally feel that while Bitmap should be lynched before lylo, ideally tomorrow, that it'd be a mistake to Lynch there today (my team somewhat disagrees). Bitmap isn't out of contention for being the last scum with this game as easy mode, but the chances he's scum are only ~35% rather than 100%. Still warranting a Lynch, just not today IMO.

[mastina]

lol I received the hated modifier cause someone gave me a talisman

I received a talisman N1 which made me bulletproof.

BTW I also have a spicy post of sorts to make, but it was made before I lost my power so I need to update it with my teammates' additional feedback and remove the parts about Alisae (spoilers: I had five figures of interest and Alisae was among them so uhhhh, kinda a weird kill?), but a few immediate cliff notes:
I personally have reasonably good analysis to believe Kerset is town.
I personally feel that while Bitmap should be lynched before lylo, ideally tomorrow, that it'd be a mistake to Lynch there today (my team somewhat disagrees). Bitmap isn't out of contention for being the last scum with this game as easy mode, but the chances he's scum are only ~35% rather than 100%. Still warranting a Lynch, just not today IMO.

To elaborate:
Since we lynched the scum strongman D1, and I received a talisman which made me bulletproof (BTW whoever that was is conftown since either ofhrz is scum faking a Vig or is town and the scum nk is missing with the obvious explanation of them shooting me, something that they wouldn't do if they knew that I was bp), I knew that I wouldn't die last night.
I did extensive analysis.
There were two possible gamestates:
Either this game was easymode, Mena was the only deepscum whose claims of a second deepscum were last ditch efforts to stop the inevitable Bitmap lynch…

…Or, if Bitmap is town, one of four players would be the most likely last deepscum:
Alisae, ofhrz, Shadoweh, or hitogoroshi.

My takeaway, Bitmap should be lynched before lylo, ideally tomorrow.

My team had varying different conclusions. Among them, massclaiming tomorrow after lynching Bitmap today.

I can give you all the full version in circa 2 hours, why I personally reached those four and to give you my teammates' perspectives on things, since they reached conclusions different from the above.

[mastina]

ur reads are still shit and lynching me is negative utility bwwahjahhahahahahaha

Mate you apparently have reading comprehension issues.

I DON'T want you lynched today.
I feel, for good reason, that you shouldn't reach lylo. If not today or lylo, that leaves two options, tomorrow or the day after.
This lynch wouldn't be a Lynch that I'd expect to hit scum.
It'd be a combination "just in case" lynch + information lynch.

I don't think that you are scum, but if you live to lylo, your ass is getting lynched 100% so if you are town you should know not to let yourself reach there.

But, I have reasonably good reasons for my poe.
Jingle is outside of it for good reason.

You're not wrong about my approach to Mena, but you're doing yourself no favors by trying to dismiss the one who did ultimately catch him.

[mastina]

ur reads are still shit and lynching me is negative utility bwwahjahhahahahahaha

Mate you apparently have reading comprehension issues.

I DON'T want you lynched today.
I feel, for good reason, that you shouldn't reach lylo. If not today or lylo, that leaves two options, tomorrow or the day after.
This lynch wouldn't be a Lynch that I'd expect to hit scum.
It'd be a combination "just in case" lynch + information lynch.

I don't think that you are scum, but if you live to lylo, your ass is getting lynched 100% so if you are town you should know not to let yourself reach there.

But, I have reasonably good reasons for my poe.
Jingle is outside of it for good reason.

You're not wrong about my approach to Mena, but you're doing yourself no favors by trying to dismiss the one who did ultimately catch him.

To explain further:
Yes, when I targeted Mena, I was aiming for an innocent; this is true enough.
It is also utterly irrelevant, because it doesn't matter what I was aiming for; what matters is what happened as a consequence: a guilty on a deepscum who over half the town had zero interest in lynching.

Then, if you believe that ofhrz is indeed a Vig, last night's scum night kill is mysteriously missing.
The most obvious answer: they tried to kill me, but failed due to me being bulletproof thanks to the talisman which I received at D2's start.
If I was indeed the scum nk last night, that means that the scum wanted to remove me from the game.

You trying to accomplish what the scum attempted yet failed, via discrediting my input, does not do you any favors. The scum wanting me dead means that my voice is important enough to warrant listening to.

Not instantly sheeping! If you fucking waited for my post, you'd see that in my writeup I was quite explicit about NOT being sheeped! (But you didn't wait even though you lost nothing from waiting.)

But between the scum trying to kill me and my status as conftown, I feel that I have the right to be listened to and respectfully engaged.

I WANT people to disagree with me. I WANT people to engage with me on my reasoning and show me why they have alternative takes, and I actually expect those takes to be more accurate than my own.

But what you are doing is doing the Scum's job for them.

As for why I think that you should be lynched either tomorrow or the day after IF the game hasn't ended, it's quite simple:
Try to find any 3p lylo combination where you are not lynched.
We have four lynches available: today, tomorrow, the day after, and 3p lylo.

Your lynch confirms that there is a second "deepscum" beyond Menalque, and removes the paranoia of "we can't let the slot who everyone scumread D1 endgame us!". Because just about everyone was scumreading you D1 with only the flipped scum being notable exceptions to this, and if we mislynch three times in a row after two consecutive scum lynches, I guarantee you that people will default to D1…where you were a primary suspicion.

Thus.
If you are town and live to see 3p lylo, the town will lose.

Do you disagree with this worst-case scenario logic? If we have three consecutive mislynches after having back to back scum lunches and you're still alive, you'd be the obvious default choice.

I don't think that you are scum. To the contrary, I think that you are town. But I also feel like if you are indeed town and live to see 3p lylo, the town will lose.

Thus, you deserve one or two chances to lynch the third scum. If one, we'd have to Lynch you tomorrow. If two, we'd have to Lynch you the day after tomorrow.

This seems like a perfectly logical conclusion. You have 1-2 chances to end the game before we lynch you. We'd lynch you both for final confirmation of information that we already suspect is true, as well as a precaution against yolovoting a D1 top scumread in 3p lylo.

[mastina]

Flips:

Mafia Strongman
2x Rolestopper

Town JK
VT

Evident

Loyal Neighborizor
Inventor with both passive positive and passive negative effects.

Scum roleblocker, not stopper; jjh was an Alien, not a JK.

[mastina]

mastina, check my ramblings and lynch pool and see if you agree.

I think hito -> Kerset -> Klick is the solve.

Kerset/Klick are both townreads. I favor hi to/Shadow-->Shadow/hito-->Bitmap instead, at least as of right now.

I'm done with my shift, so once I drive home, I can go into my reasoning.

[mastina]

Okay, so as promised, my writeup is below. It is modified from the last draft I made, since I edited it as the night went on and thus the original was more stream of consciousness less coherent, added teammate thoughts that weren't there, from the day thusfar realized some things needed further clarity and some thoughts have changed from what I last wrote, but here it is more or less:

I don't really think there's much debate that I am pretty much conftown. I don't expect my input to be valued disproportionately highly--or rather, that might happen but I would strongly prefer it not and to the contrary would indeed prefer it be just another voice. I feel like I've done the most to help the town already that I can do. Between the D2 guilty and the D1 contributions, I actually don't think that I, personally, will have much to add, that I, personally, won't be able to magically find the third scum in addition to the other two.
That's no excuse for me to not try, so I am still going to attempt it, to still try for the final correct solve.
And, heck--even if I cannot, then my teammates have a reasonable chance of catching the third, as a fresh set of eyes to go over the critical D1.

But I believe that the rest of the town players in this game in tandem with their teammates reading this game will

probably

be the actual ones to catch the third--their teammates have mostly-fresh eyes to go over the critical D1 and I expect that D1 is where the best scumhunting will come from, so other slots in the game bouncing ideas off of their teammates is the most likely source of finding the correct answer.

That said, I still feel like I should contribute

to

that. By giving my personal thoughts and process, I can hopefully maybe help guide the other players in this game with their teammates to where they need to go.

And for a start:
I don't actually want to lynch Bitmap today. I think that Bitmap shouldn't reach lylo. If Bitmap reaches lylo, autolynch the slot. But Bitmap should be lynched in 5/6p, or 7/8p (tomorrow). There's two reasons for this. The first is for the information of the slot being town; the second to keep the "was it really that easy?" question settled. I don't think we need to lynch Bitmap today and I don't think we should, but I do think Bitmap should be lynched as a precautionary measure to help clarify the game--just...not today, instead tomorrow.

Do I think Bitmap is scum and the game is that easy? It's at least 35% or so

possible

, but with that percentile, I wouldn't call it probable. High enough that I don't want Bitmap alive in lylo, but low enough that...actually. Surprise surprise. I don't want Bitmap lynched today. There's a far higher chance Bitmap is town, than there is that Bitmap is scum, in my eyes.

Right now, I am mostly looking in the grouping of {ofhrz, Shadoweh, hitogoroshi, Alisae} as containing the last scum.
Alisae flipped town.
ofhrz claimed credit for the kill, so the options there are either she's scum faking a vig kill or is genuinely a vig who killed Alisae--of the two, the latter is by far the more likely; the split is like 5-95 or so; see below for more on that, but basically ofhrz is mostly out of contention so that would leave my best guesses as one of Shadoweh or hitogoroshi.
If you asked me at the start of D3, I'd say Shadoweh > hito as the last scum, but I'm less sure now. (But, more on that below.)

For those who were excluded...
Klick was originally excluded from this because of what amounts to gut and isoing other players in the game (among them, Reundo's readslist; I don't think Reundo lists a second scumbuddy as a top townread and that is among the reasons why I lean against Bitmap being scum right now). I just got the overall feeling of his slot being town. But when I actually iso'd Klick, I got much, much stronger reasons.

Klick's early list had both Menalque and Gamma listed as nulls. That's not impossible for scum, it's just slightly less likely in my opinion. 672 felt genuine as well to me as being not-scumbuddies handling of the slot. 1048 was also good in my opinion. 1095 seems strongly anti-buddy, too. His handling of the Reundo wagon was something that I feel like was good as well. He thought that the reasons for wagoning Reundo were a stretch, but that wagoning Reundo was still a good idea for simpler reasons. Given that I have a mild suspicion of a possible double-bus (it's confirmed Menalque bussed Reundo and possible the second scum was there, too), this is the towniest possible stance to be honest. Is he my strongest townread? No, but I am still reasonably confident that Klick is town from what I've seen.

Chemist is excluded because Chemist is

probably

(see below note) my top townread, obviously town from everything including being the only slot yesterday who had an actually alignment-indicative handling of it in my opinion and whose handling of it was immensely town. This dude radiates obvtown to me--so if you think this slot is scum, then if you are right you'll need to ignore me.

You're more than free to because like I said, I don't think I'll actually catch the last scum. But if you were to listen to me, Chemist is (probably) my strongest townread. His iso looks town the entire way, including him being one of the few slots to have a stance on Reundo which looks like a town stance and also having a stance on Menalque which looks anti-buddy.

However, worthy of note: kuribo had an alternative take; in his skimming, he thought that Chemist calling Mena scum and giving an out was forced, and has a hard time buying that someone tells a scumread to shoot the investigative that guiltied them.
At daystart I would've hard-disagreed with this take and dismissed it offhandedly; this has softened to a soft-disagree because of me agreeing with Jingle's setup spec of the last scum being probably investigative in nature and Chemist having softed an investigative role. I still feel like he is far more likely town than not, though.

Jingle is excluded because I did a rule of 3 to Reundo's townread list, where he listed Menalque in the same tier as Chemist, top townread, and Jingle. Then, when I iso'd Jingle, everything just seemed town from him.
This is probably a read I need to elaborate on, but I don't feel like doing it right now. (Sorry!)

Kerset was originally excluded for similar reasons to Klick--mostly gut with a side of isoing other players in the game, and thinking that the slot is less likely to be scum.
But upon an iso of Kerset, I've got to place Kerset as second-strongest town behind Chemist. Maybe even STRONGEST town. I could go into the exact posts that elicited this change, but long story short: I doubt that Kerset calls his scumbuddy a 'bully', and lean towards the opinion that the early fos on Mena wasn't distancing.

Kerset was one of the few to have Menalque as an early suspicion in fact. Kerset was pushing Menalque as scum the whole game.
It could've been, a la Star Wars Rogue One, the scum who was meant to take the fall for the deepscum, setting up the deepscum for success...only to have the deepscum be cop guiltied...

...But far far more likely is that Kerset is just town.

That left the four mentioned above, and Bitmap.

If my solve is correct, we could theoretically afford to lynch all of them thanks to the kill on Alisae. But that would only be IF my solve is correct, and I fully admit to it being a rather notable 'if'.

Originally, my preference was ofhrz > Shadoweh > hitogoroshi with Alisae deliberately unsorted because fuck reading Alisae, I don't care if I'm conftown, I am not going to pretend that I can try this in good faith and come to an actually informed stance on em. (Fortunately, that is no longer an issue.)

But to give my thoughts on others:
When I put in the time to read Menalque's iso, posts like this one reaffirm my stance that the big four probably contain the final scum, and of them, ofhrz looks by far the worst of them in Menalque's iso.

When I isoed ofhrz, her iso looked like the very best fit for being the third scum. In isolation, this game separate from others, ofhrz stuck out as the most suspicious of the three I analyzed...

...But there were things which gave me doubt. Specifically, I had a source of strong hesitation in the form of, "the things I am looking at which look like scum, I remember thinking looked like scum in Any Non-Dead Person Can Post, when they weren't". That in of itself made me doubt the accuracy of the scumread due to the past experience.

Then comes the killer of the scumread. The main thing which gives me doubt in Mena's iso about ofhrz being the scumbuddy: it would be Menalque diverting attention away from one scumbuddy (ofhrz) onto another (Gamma/Reundo). This sounds like the sort of "big-brain" type play that could be made, especially by an upcoming star of scumplay, but feels less likely to be made because to my knowledge--that's not something anyone actually does? Like...I've never heard of anyone, ever, diverting attention away from one scumbuddy in favor of bussing another.

I have heard plenty of cases where players were

accused

of doing this. Accused of diverting attention away from one scumbuddy in favor of bussing another; accused of the flipped scum player diverting away from one scumbuddy in favor of bussing another; etc. But as far as I can recall, these people were wrong each and every single time because nobody actually does that as far as I know.

Menalque might be the type of player who could pull it off as a first of its kind maneuver, but like...would he actually?

Which is why I say: the majority of Menalque's iso strongly suggests ofhrz as a scumbuddy, but things like this give me reasonable doubt on that conclusion because it requires a course of action I don't think I've ever seen an actual scum player actually pull off.

Between "the reasons I am scumreading her sound like the same reasons I wrongly scumread her when she was town", "Menalque's iso would, if she were scum, require a scum interaction I've never seen ACTUALLY be true in spite of countless games of people proposing it", and the vig claim on having killed Alisae, there's pretty damn strong evidence suggesting ofhrz is town.
For her to be scum would require that she fake a vig, HOPE that there was an explanation for a lack of a second nightkill, have a weird-ass never-before-seen scum interaction with Menalque, and to have play very very very closely resembling one of her notable towngames.
To say that's an absolutely ridiculous violation of Occam's Razor would be a bit of an understatement. So she is by far the most town and probably conftown at this point in time.

When I isoed Shadoweh, her iso was a whole bunch of, "this could be scum, but also could be town", with zero inkling as to which way it would lean. She's an utter dead zone in terms of reads. It's possible she's the last scum; it's possible she's town; I can't tell the difference in spite of having tried.

When I isoed hitogoroshi, immediately I could tell: "this

could

in

theory

be scum, but is almost certainly not"--hitogoroshi is a top-tier scum player and Menalque is an upcoming prodigy of scumplay. Their interactions could thus be scum theater with them slow-rolling intricate, dynamic interactions that naturally weave themselves into a perfect storm where they both look town from it but if one of them were to flip scum the other wouldn't. That

could

be the case, because hitogoroshi is that good and deserves a healthy amount of respect, and Menalque is probably that good.

But while they could be scumbuddies, everything about their interactions suggests that they aren't. Everything in that interaction, strongly, makes it look like they aren't. I can see them being scum, but the narrative for it requires a specific narrative that takes specific interpretations of facts that leads to a narrative that is most definitely a violation of occam's razor--an interaction that by necessity requires paranoia, because on its own, it looks town.

He deserves healthy paranoia, sure, yes, respecting his skill as a scum player does warrant a certain level of caution...but there is such a thing as too much caution. Last night, my inclination was that calling him scum was exactly that, too cautious, and that of ofhrz/Shadoweh/him, he was the least scummy of them.

With the things others have said and ofhrz being cleared, I am no longer as certain and want to revisit this assessment.

When it comes to thoughts from my teammates: I mentioned kuribo above and his take.
Xtoxm wants to just lynch Bitmap and then next day (D4), massclaim and assess the situation. (If we do that, that's not a bad choice I suppose, but we should all be on the same page. But this assessment of that plan is mine, everything in this specific parenthesis does not come from him.)

So those are my basic thoughts with what I've gotten from my team, and I want to hear the feedback of other players and their teams on their own takes on this.
I did put my utmost thought into it, but this is about as good as I can give in terms of thoughts.

I THINK that covers everything?

[mastina]

Please stop, Bitmap/RC. You're not having fun and you're not adding anything worthwhile to the thread with your posting.

I mean.
It's pretty apparent at this point that there's one of two options for Bitmap.
Either he's trolling town or he's just legit the last scum.

I favor the former over the latter.

[mastina]

Also, obviously, above was written before I saw hito's post.

hitogoroshi is conftown now no matter what angle you take.
ofhrz is last scum faking vig? Well, then, hito can't be scum.
Kerset is last scum who commuted last night instead of killing? Well, then, hito can't be scum.
Scum is not either of them?
Well then for hitogoroshi to be scum, he would need to have either deliberately no-killed to fake a false-bp hit, or deliberately submitted a kill on me he knew from his own role was guaranteed to fail. In a game where there could be any number of PRs that could poe the game still, and if there was a vig (as there was), give what amounts to a free lynch to the town since by no-killing and letting the vig kill, the game would remain on odds rather than going to evens.

I don't know about you, but I very much sincerely doubt that hito in a role madness game looks at the above plan and goes, "yeah, that sounds like a good idea to me".
Soyeah.
hito conftown; ofhrz conftown.
Kerset very likely town; Chemist quite likely town.
Jingle and Klick no mechanical reasons to be town, but townreads of mine based on play.

That leaves Shadoweh and Bitmap.

[mastina]

RC is saying that the odds of having two innocent child roles in a heavy PR heavy role madness game that also has vig/jk/etc is tremendous. Too much town power.

Okay so Bitmap's legit the final scum because RC knows roles well enough to not make this mistake.
VOTE: Bitmap.
Loyal Neighborizer isn't an IC--it is a cop. I am not conftown because of my role, I am conftown because of how the usage of my role played out. PenguinPower I believe even sent a message to me when I confirmed my role as masonizer reminding me, 'technically you are not conftown to the player you neighborize'.

Friendly Neighbor IS an IC.

They do opposite things. Friendly Neighbor confirms to the target that the player doing the action is town (but does nothing to confirm the player receiving the action as town); Loyal Neighborizer confirms the target as town (but does nothing to confirm the player doing the action is town).

A game with an IC and an investigative is absolutely fine especially considering both actions could run afoul of a town role AND a scum role.
His post to the contrary is 100% flailing.

[mastina]

Good thing I am just confirmed or this would have been hilariously frustrating

Hey man even if you weren't conftown and I was praying to god that someone in the pile of four was the talisman person, the only way I'd have lynched you first was if Shadoweh was the talisman person.

In all other cases I think it was pretty clear that I was favoring lynching Shadoweh over you.

Like I said--I had strong reason to think you weren't scum. I felt that with how D3 was playing out, that merited a revisit, but if left to my own devices...

"Y'know...this player is absolutely dead null to me" as a lynch > "this player could only be scum if caving to paranoia" as a lynch.

But since I do agree with you

now

that Bitmap's probably just legit the last scum with RC doing scum flailing to try and salvage a lost situation...bit irrelevant overall.

[mastina]

I'd like to air thoughts out:
If we all agree Bitmap is the last scum, what do people think of doing a massclaim today just in case we're wrong?

I mean, I think there's very damn good reasons why we wouldn't be, but thoughts on locking in the claims so there's no wiggle room if Bitmap's not just the last?

[mastina]

No trust

I mean, you were only a poe scumread pretty much. You've been basically null the entire time and not for lack of trying, the only reason you were in the lynch list is because everyone else had very good reasons to not be.

Who would you want to claim b/c people like chemist/you/hito don't fullclaim imo

I mean, what I mostly am afraid of is people paranoia-lynching people like ofhrz, hito, Chemist, and Kerset, because they didn't fullclaim, and the actual scum winning from this paranoia...
...And/Or the paranoia was justified because scum DID do that, and we let them get away with it because we lynched the wrong ones we got paranoid about.

But I suppose if everyone is willing to put faith into that not being an issue--with you as a VT claim and Jingle as a VT claim, that leaves I believe only Bitmap and Klick as unclaimed, so I guess Klick locking in a claim?

Probably not important though, because like I said. Probably just Bitmap at this point.

[mastina]

I claim RC junior.

Also, don't really care about getting lynched since I'll be gone.

RC wants people after I get lynched to stop wanking each other off about how amazing you used to be and should just sheep the people who know what they're doing in 2020.

Also I'm PRETTY sure that this is just a confession?

[mastina]

Also, if mastina and hito comes in here all and continue to insinuate that I'm scum, I'm denying NSG giving reads in this game.

I do not respond to terrorist threats, least of all ones which I know that they'd be playing against a town wincon if they actually followed through on.

[mastina]

Also, if mastina and hito comes in here all and continue to insinuate that I'm scum, I'm denying NSG giving reads in this game.

I do not respond to terrorist threats, least of all ones which I know that they'd be playing against a town wincon if they actually followed through on.

To explain.
Bitmap has made it clear that he believes nsg as a paragon nominee should be sheeped.
Bitmap is threatening, "don't keep pushing me as scum or I won't give nsg's thoughts".
If Bitmap believed that nsg as a paragon nominee should be sheeped, he should not be keeping her thoughts from the town if he is actually town--because doing so, keeping nsg's thoughts from reaching the town, would be playing against the town win condition, because if nsg's reads are in fact good enough to be sheeped, then he should be sharing them regardless of the reads of others on his slot, because failing to do so reduces the odds of him winning this game if he is town.

So we're left with three conclusions from the threat.
1: It's empty. Bitmap has no intention to follow through and refuse to voice nsg's reads.
2: It's deliberately playing against wincon--in which case, the mods will take action for us.
3: It's a scum strategy, either to make it easier to hide that he's scum or for the AtE involved.

Pick your choice, but none of them mean I've any incentive to back off.