Team Mafia 2018: Magical Stories ~Game Over~
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Hi game!
Wow, 6 pages before breakfast. I support the wagon on jjh, based on his play and his given reads so far; if we had to lynch someone right now he would be my bet. I don't think it’s impossible he’s town, but if the base chance of someone being scum is 20%, I would put him at 25%.
Not gonna vote since L-2 with a bunch of players not yet checked in yet is awkward.
It took me 40 minutes to read this and now I have to go to work so all you get besides this is my patchy notes I made as I went along.
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notes:
Davesaz
claimed miller and hated
Espeon
seems town, I like the question to boon in #55
SleepyKrew
seems town, Marquis is invested too, and I like the observation on jjh in #60
Zach
don’t like the Boon vote in #63. ignores all other content in the game?
jjh
don’t like the reads list in #66 - surprised he so readily townreads most of the players voting him? Is that likely, if he’s town? Feel like it needs to be backed up by something.
hiplop
nothing here. vote on jjh is understandable, but also backed by nothing that makes him town. trying to switch to boon in #102 is super weird.
hebichan
missed her earlier posts, not sure why Sleepy and hiplop puts her as townie
Boon
prefers scum-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
No, I’m just realistic aboout odds. 5% increase on base is plenty enough to make someone my top scum read and best lynch candidate.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Boon- for my part, I don’t buy the claim that your team would not have let you have a scum PM. You also said that most of your team are fairly new players. I find it unlikely, if you prefer playing scumandare the most experienced player, that they would insist on taking scum themselves rather than to let you have it - surely they’d at least let you make the call.
Slight scumread on Boon because I think that he may be lying about this.
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jjh- I’m not the first to ask, please can you explain where your reads in #66 came from. What about Zach made him town? You said “his votes and his interactions”… I’ve read back through the 4 posts Zach had made at that point and I just don’t see it.
What made Espeon and Boon stronger townreads at that point than Zach and Sleepy? What was scummy about hebi’s post? Are those still your reads?
VOTE: jjh-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
No Boon. Just, no.In post 233, Boonskiies wrote:I’m only relaxed when I play scum, and don’t have to worry about scum hunting. I’m much better at hunting for mistakes in town’s people’s plays and then pushing them off as scum.
I’ve been told I come off as incredibly genuine when I’m scum.
I get that you're full of yourself.In post 242, Boonskiies wrote:I state very often that i am a late game town powerhouse, and I personally feel I am a stronger townie than scum player,
Your second explanation about the role PM distribution is more believable than the first.
I pointed out something suspicious. I didn't think it was as suspicious as jjh's play to date. What kind of ridiculous comment is this.In post 242, Boonskiies wrote:The fact that you then choose to vote JJH over me is laughable.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
And yet you don't seem to understand that I was pointing out something I found suspicious because I am town. You can apparentlyIn post 253, Boonskiies wrote:I understand why you’d want to keep the option of lynching me open right now with the said players I brought up creepin’.onlysee a scum motivation for it. Whichisridiculous.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
It was factually incorrect to think, based on the information I had, that it was unlikely your team would have refused to let you play scum?In post 268, Boonskiies wrote:But what you posted was factually incorrect, so i don’t see it as something you would be doing as town.
I also reevaluate my reads when I have more information.
I'm defensive because I think your reasoning for voting me is junk and I'm not going to wait around to point it out.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Maybe it could be, but it's not, and your insistence that it is is rubbish. I said I didn't think what you original stated made sense or was believable. You gave more information which made it more believable. I changed my stance.In post 281, Boonskiies wrote:Sure, you re-evaluated, but why couldn’t that just be scum changing paths when they realized I had a good explanation.
You ask me this, I ask you the same thing. Can you not see how my original suspicion of you was reasonable?In post 281, Boonskiies wrote:I feel you should understand why it came across as scummy
Do you not think it would be weird for a team of newbies to say to an experienced player 'you can't be scum because everyone will think you're scum'? Especially when you profess to be so believable and 'genuine' as scum - surely, you might as well just take the scum role PM, no one will know either way until you're dead, and on the one hand, even if you don't take, people will expect that you would have anyway, on the other hand, if you play scum so well then you won't get lynched anyway?
Your second explanation gave some extra details, your team mates aren't so inexperienced, you would apparently still enjoy playing scum vicariously. But I didn't have that information to begin with. Why can't you see that my accusation was justified?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
I'm sure Boon is gonna go crazy for this, but I thought jjh's recent explanation of his initial reads list was good and I feel less sure on him being scum now too. Also he said he prefers to play town, and I just don't think this kind of thing counts for nothing in Team Mafia.
hebi- have you played with sheep before? Or has anyone? I agree that their posts are pretty empty of content, but I did a quick meta check and that seems to be pretty normal for them. I've currently got them down as a player that is unreadable and that I will have to work around. What makes you sure on them being scum?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
See I agree with all this, and yet...In post 334, hebichan wrote:The defense of jjh seemed opportunistic from the timing and despite relying on his team, he hasn't actually given any other reads besides the one that could give him cred.
Like sure, relying on your team seems weak, but relying on your team to give a single read seems worse.
sheep's iso, Open 705
Comparing the posts there to here, I just don't see any meaningful difference.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Probably would, but that means we're just lynching them based on nothing.In post 349, SleepyKrew wrote:@fenchurch if someone is that useless as town, why wouldn't they play the same way as scum?
I read back through sheep's posts in this game. Their team mates do give thoughts on multiple players: Espe, Jjh, Dave, Boon and Zach as town, momo as scum. No, there's not a lot to back these reads up, and I don't put much stock in them.In post 341, hebichan wrote:Do you think his team could be telling him only useful for a scum agenda player? I am mostly concerned his team only gave feedback on one person if they know he's sort of a lump of a player.
What suggests that the info the team mates have given is more relevant for a scum player?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Just to add, this isn't me completely giving up on reading sheep and/or lynching sheep, but I'd quite like to get to a place where I'm lynching someone based on having a good feeling that they're gonna flip scum, as opposed to just random chance.In post 352, Fenchurch wrote:Probably would, but that means we're just lynching them based on nothing.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
I don't know. Sometimes players become readable given context. Sometimes they can be read through connections or PoE.In post 353, hebichan wrote:It so means we're leaving them alive for no reason.
A lump is a lump is a lump.
Thor and Fro66er have yet to even post. I'm not in a place where I'm gonna do basically a policy lynch.
And by the way, I'm not trying to poke holes though. I do want to know your reasoning, whatever it is..-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
The reasons he gave in #245 seemed fair; although there wasn't a lot to go by, he did have an explanation for townreading players and believing their their actions at that point were pro-town, and scumreading you because you didn't vote. And I did skimmed one of his previous games, which made me feel better; and as I mentioned, his preferring town also does.In post 355, hebichan wrote:Okay, so current thought on jjh atm Fen?
It'd be good if he would comment a bit more on the last 5 pages, besides repeatedly asking for hiplop to talk to Cheetory (although hiplop should also do that).
Okay but why? Your last post was essentially 'well he's probably the same as town or scum'SleepyKrew wrote:he's scummy-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Sleepy can you answer this? Or anything else that shows that sheep is scummier here than in their previous games?In post 352, Fenchurch wrote:What suggests that the info the team mates have given is more relevant for a scum player?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
hebi had said she thought his team mates were giving him information ‘only useful for a scum olayer’. I dont see it, so that’s what I was asking about.
Meta is relevant if the reasons you think a player is scummy are things that they always do.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
sheep- have you played as scum before? Can you post an example? Which alignment do you prefer? What do you think you do differently as town and scum? Please answer hypothetically if the answer to the first question is no.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
I'm behind a Zach lynch. Play overall seems scummy, but in particular his explanation of unvoting hiplop because of him acting more town... but not from anything Zach actually saw, just an assumption from the fact that other people had unvoted.
It's lazy play, but in particular I think it's the kind of lazy play more likely to come from scum than town.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zach
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dave: So far you've placed a single vote and it's on Katsuki. I'm finding Katsuki's lack of input equally annoying, but apparently it is something he's likely to do as town. Aside from your vote, your posts seem fairly relevant, so... is Katsuki really your strongest scumread? If not, who?
~~~~~In post 465, momo wrote:Right now, scum doesn't want scum to be lynched. They are looking for an alternative. I presented kat. Town, especially one as experienced as you, should never be voting kat. Kat is anti-town, not scum. This is an easy lynch that only scum would go for. Not anyone worth their salt as town.
SCUM READING DAVE
pedit: and jj does it too....could see them togethermomo- when you proposed Katsuki as an alternative lynch for scum to hop onto... an alternative to who, exactly? Whose lynch do you think dave-scum is trying to avoid?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Oh I forgot a couple of things.
I read this as, the defence against a sheep lynch is either correct (and therefore sheep is town) or white-knighty (and therefore the white-knighters are scum... and sheep is town). Therefore, if he wants to join one of the two leading wagons, jjh is his best vote.In post 574, jjh927 wrote:
meaning "Sheep is either legitimately defending jjh927 or he is scum defending town!jjh927 for towncred", right? And that's the justification for voting me, which is counterintuitive to both scenarios. The vote fails to add pressure or lulz, and Thor is then absent and so does not follow up on either pressure or lulz. Pressure or lulz could be obtained under those circumstances by getting on the at-the-time equally sized sheep wagon.The sheep defense this page feels legit or white knighty
???
I might not have firmly asked for it, because I'm polite and I know that playing scum is sometimes necessary, but I'd probably have been offered a town role anyway because my team mates know me. I prefer to be town; in the last Team Mafia, 2 of our 5 tokens were on me getting a town role.In post 429, Espeonage wrote:@Fenchurch: Your team gets two scum PMs out of five, are you asking firmly for one alignment or the other?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
I don't know what to think of your play momo.
On the one hand, my gut feel on the 'gambit' thing was that it seemed more likely to come from a town place then a scum place. On the other hand, you're so inconsistent in what you say, e.g:
momo, #465: "Town, especially one as experienced as you, should never be voting kat. Kat is anti-town, not scum. This is an easy lynch that only scum would go for. Not anyone worth their salt as town."
momo, #610: "kat could be scum...in fact, I can see someone playing anti-town as scum"
I feel bad for not having much in the way of strong reads yet for a 25-page game... but then, it's a 25-page game with a lot of spam posts. I read Zach in a couple of his previous games; still happy with his lynch.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Why is that?In post 614, Zachstralkita wrote:...Also Based RC-sama says u guys are dummies if you lynch me because I'm the last person on the team that he would want having a scum slot-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
It's not the game I was hoping for either, but you work with what you get. It seems like you're keeping up to speed with the game; I'd like it if you posted more, too. (Please don't replace out.)In post 631, Thor665 wrote:I'm here, though I find the pace and post quality of the game pretty akin to a Large - and thus I loathe it.
I'd help lynch jhh, Katsuki, or Dave.
I think Momo is town.
I have no other reads of worth.
Voltron Mafia (town) and Hell is 56k (scum). And I wasn't expecting to get a rock-solid meta read on you or anything, but wanted to get a feel for your play overall. For the record, it left me feeling no better or worse about my vote on you.In post 630, Zachstralkita wrote:Fenchurch what games of mine did you read
I sold my soul like 40 minutes ago so like I guarantee nothing you saw was indicative unfortunately
Zach, in your words... why am I voting you? And why does my vote suck?In post 684, Zachstralkita wrote:Fenchurch knows how to write posts yes, that doesn't make her town
Her vote on me sucked so...?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Something I did notice though, Katyusha previously claimed a rock-solid scumtell on Zach.
jjh- is she reading this game at all? What is her opinion?
And can you give any more explanation about the Zach-townreads from your other team members? Why do they think he would have defended you in early game if he was scum - and is the read based on anything else besides that?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Jjh - noted, thanks for clarifying.
Zach - okay, but why have Isaidthat I’m voting you?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Yes; wish you’d put as much effort into scumhunting as memes.
The reason why I think your unvote was scummy is because you first tried to give a reason for it that might have been legit. It was only when pressed further that it turned out you didn’t actually have any reason, you just invited because other people did. It’s this covering up that I think comes from scum; trying to look like your votes are based on something different to what they are (wagoning instead of acumhunting).
So, why do you think my vote on you makes me scum?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
I don't follow the second part of this sentence (the hiplop vote didn't mean a lot but he may still be scum - surely these things don't go together?), but. Why would I expect scum-you to be more intelligent than town-you?In post 763, Zachstralkita wrote:Yikes. I'd like to think scum me would do the moderately intelligent option and at least attempt to convince the townies
Hiplop vote didn't mean a lott tho and he may still be scum
Please do this. I will engage you.In post 763, Zachstralkita wrote:I could make like case type cases on my scumreads, but no one engages me on logic
Okay, covered it up is the wrong phrase maybe.In post 763, Zachstralkita wrote:I didn't cover anything up. I didn't try? If I did you .. it would be covered?
What I see is two things:
a) you unvoted hiplop for "acting more town", even though you didn't actually see him acting town. This says that you don't actually care whether your vote is on scum or not, you just care about who other people are voting. Not caring about whether your vote is on scum or not is a scumtell, in my opinion.
b) when first questioned, you implied your unvote was based on an opinion hiplop's alignment (which makes it look like you're trying to read people), when in fact it was based purely on other player's votes.
That's why it was a scummy action.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
In post 763, Zachstralkita wrote:As in, what he's saying and what happened are two different things but this doesn't get pointed out, uh, ever. Is this because everyone knows? But you're condoning it?
No, I don't think momo's accusations make sense, but I'm trying to focus on things that are actually scummy, and as far as I know momo posts like that regardless of alignment. So I'm not going to waste time and threadspace arguing with him when it doesn't matter.In post 763, Zachstralkita wrote:What is davesaz doing? I remember a Miller claim then I remember getting upset over frog memes. Neither of those things are particulary useful.
Dave I don't have any read on and will come to, but I can only do so much at once, and I haven't seen anything obviously scummy either.
I think Sleepy's actions have all made sense and been relevant and felt town, but I'm not discounting him completely because in a game like this it would be easy to get blinded by someone just being competent and sensible. But he's also not a priority for me because there are many more unreadable people still to sort.In post 763, Zachstralkita wrote:Why do people townread SleepyKrew? Is it because he has the tone of a graphing calculator? He be lying too it's just that no one cares any more LOL the bar has already been set
What did Sleepy lie about?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Zach - in this post you don't answer the question. You never answer this question. You never say why you scumread Sleepy. You never say why you scumread me. What are your reasons for your reads?
You never answered why RadiantCowbells supposedly wouldn't give you a scumslot either, you just said 'haha he wasn't expecting to be asked about it'. So? Answer the question.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Still mixed.In post 355, hebichan wrote:Okay, so current thought on jjh atm Fen?
The bad:
He hasn't posted any meaningful observations in ages. He's active, but doesn't show any sign of trying to work out who the scum are.
His last two votes were Kats and Thor... both pretty weak choices, as it was due to their lack of posting or lack of content, rather than any actual scumminess. The Thor vote was (as far as I can tell) due to a misunderstanding of what Thor posted, but he hasn't responded to that or moved on.
The good:
It strikes me as town that he seems to expect a lot of people to townread him based on meta. If I was scum, I wouldn't do that, maybe because I think I'm somewhat easy to catch as scum based on meta. Add to that that he claims to much prefer playing town than scum.
I do think it's reasonable for him to be somewhat preoccupied with trying to understand the basis for the persistent wagon on him and to dissuade it's voters, which is the only content he has posted recently.
So... eh. Right now, it's not enough to make me feel he's scum or town. Can you point more to what it is that makes you sure he is? Purely lack of content, or something else?
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In post 245, jjh927 wrote:No, they are not all still my reads, but I'm not sure where I'd place Boon now because he's gone rather up and down. I'm detecting willful ignorance. Also more people have posted. Some reads are still the same though.jjh- would you be able to share your current reads list and reasons? And what did you mean in this post about 'wilful ignorance'?
Extra question: can you/your team give more information on why y'all read Zach as town?-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
I dunno. I don't like to rely entirely on someone else's read above my own, especially when I don't know their own alignment, I don't know the reasoning behind it, and I only have one example of her accuracy. But it's something; I'm mulling over.In post 834, Fro99er wrote:So giga/katyusha thinks Zach is town, you know they have a strong meta tell of Zach scum, and you're still okay with voting Zach?
Are you expecting a good answer to this considering he has a total of 10 players in his lynch/vig pool?jjh927 wrote:Zach, why is Fro99er in your lynchpool
jjh- I asked you for reads, post them please.-
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Fenchurch she/theyMafia Scumshe/they
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: July 24, 2008
- Pronoun: she/they
- Location: Notts, UK
Sure, here are mine since I don't mind giving them, but I feel like I've already been a lot more open about reasons behind my suspicions, and my feelings on a bunch of other players than you have. I asked for yours specifically because you've given so little recently by which to judge you. Why are you so reluctant?In post 845, jjh927 wrote:
Why don't you post your readsIn post 842, Fenchurch wrote:I asked you for reads, post them please.
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Townie
Fro9- the first read I would actually bet on in this game. His comments just feel very genuine and believable and open… reminds me of town-Mina; not in the words, but in the conviction of his own towniness.
Sleepy- I’m not as certain here, but his observations all seem valid and I feel like he’s pushing the right things in the right places.
Just above null
hebi- feels town but she’s been a bit quiet, and I was never satisfied by the way she pushed sheep as scum
Espeon- gutfeel from early game, although he hasn’t done much since.
momo- I’m being generous, but although I thought the post where he claimed to have caught scum by setting up Katsuki as a fake counter wagon was a silly, it struck me as more likely to have come from a town place more than a scum one. I really don’t feel this one as strongly as Fro9 does though… like the pushing all over the place is just null for me.
Null
dave- I’m on the fence. I feel like he’s the kind of player I would go for in the past just for not providing much content, but in my experience is not especially likely to flip scum.
gerryoat- Every now and then I go back to read gerry and I just can’t make headway. The rhyming thing make all his posts feel very unnatural, and they never feel poignant or relevant. He directed something at me a while back which I’ve been meaning to respond to, but the comments he made to me in that post were pretty incorrect. Would appreciate someone pointing out why they find him town, is there something there I’m missing?
sheep- no conclusions
Katsuki- I can follow the frong posts but without more original written content it’s not enough for me to get a read on him. I doubt it’s a real PR, but if someone is a princess please hurry up and kiss him so he will post like a person again.
Thor- I appreciate his feelings about the game, but his posts so far are just not enough to go on
Scummy
hiplop- My gutfeel on him is scummy, but then again I’m aware that it always is. I don’t have more than that.
jjh- I was satisfied with his explanation of his bad reads list at the start, since then he’s been active but hasn’t really done anything townie; and he doesn’t seem interested in changing that.
Boon- Scummy largely because he’s so boistrous and in your face here, and I know he prefers scum. From Team Mafia 2015 I remember him for two things: extremely bad reads, and seeming pretty disengaged from the game. So based on the reads front, I don’t find it particularly scummy that he’s voting me along with Zach. But aside from that, his approach and energy feels very different to my experience of him as town.
Zach- not sure. I disagree with so much that he says. He accuses me of not really scumhunting, but I don’t think he even attempts to scumhunt himself, which makes him feel inherently like scum to me. And he claims that playing town is hard and that he’s bad at it… to me this also seems like an excuse for not having to try to be fake being town. Yes, the Giga/Katyusha thing maybe should count for something, and maybe the point about the rest is that he approaches the game in a way completely different to me. I find being town easy; I can just post what I’m thinking. I find scum hard; I have to do the same but it’s all fake.
I ought to re-read hiplop, sheep, dave and gerry, as their the ones I have put the least into so far.-
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I didn't want to go to the trouble either but I did it anyway. Quit being lazy.In post 872, jjh927 wrote:I'm reluctant because I don't want to have to go through the trouble of making a readslist. I'm very in-the-moment and 1V1 focused and so far the people I'm trying to engage with are taking their sweet time about getting back to me
Who are you trying to engage with and why? Pretty much all I've seen you do is ask people to ask their teammates to town-read you, and vote for lurkers.-
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So this is the gerry post I mentioned just now.In post 663, gerryoat wrote:
For someone who said, finding scum was hard for them,In post 601, Fenchurch wrote:I'm behind a Zach lynch. Play overall seems scummy, but in particular his explanation of unvoting hiplop because of him acting more town... but not from anything Zach actually saw, just an assumption from the fact that other people had unvoted.
I'm surprised that I was able to find this gem.
Your votes have been on many different people, can you explain?
Instead being erratic, I would like you to pick a lane.
a) The post about Zach was a couple before the post where I mentioned that I didn't have a lot of strong reads. I don't think it's contradictory to have a scum read on someone but also still lament a lack of strong reads overall. I prefer to work holistically and by process of elimination, which relies on having a bunch of townreads as well as scumreads, and it's just harder in a larger, spammier game.
b) My votes haven't been on many different people, they've been on two: jjh and Zach. I wouldn't call that erratic.
To me this is typical of all of gerry's posts... doesn't really say anything interesting or true. I don't think he's scum for it, but I do think that posting in rhyme is probably limiting his ability to be meaningful.-
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ItIn post 879, Fro99er wrote:"I made a reads list and you decided you didn't want to so I'll shade you as lazy"
not goodISlazy. jjh has been one of the main wagons, and he's not giving any kind of content or opinions or anything useful.
I never said I expected him to do it just because I did, but I do want him to put some effort into the game and being readable. If he has no opinions, fine, but if he has them but just can't be bothered to share them, that's just bad play.-
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Trying to prod jjh into doing something is terrible.In post 878, Fro99er wrote:pedit: okay I hate that post. That lazy part about JJ is terrible.
Zach, get lost. Honestly.-
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Okay so like I said, you only seem interested in talking to the people who are voting you. Why is that?In post 883, jjh927 wrote:Fen, I'm trying to talk to Gerry and Katsuki, and maybe Thor though I haven't been as direct in that
You're voting Thor... is he a scumread? If so, why? I commented on your earlier 'case' against Thor. Response?-
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Okay, but he could still provide something. He's pegged you as town, but that's the first and only read he's given since page 5 or something. The rest has all been him pestering players who are voting him, or who are quiet.In post 888, Fro99er wrote:I'm positive he didn't readlist in paint. I can't remember in RC's game, but he was one of the best town players there that game, which is why I questioned him early in paint and here where I thought he wasn't as good when I know he can be.
Also he already posted one reads list this game-
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Was this a serious thing or a joke?In post 898, hebichan wrote:You come in after a few days oof not postinbg and pretty much just go and break all the leading wagons.
I know you've already acknowledged that fro99er hasn't really had an impact on the leading wagons right now. But if he had done, why would that be scummy? And why did you think he had?-
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Where did I say this? I don't think I ever have. fro99er said he was flipflopping on jjh.In post 912, momo wrote:Cause you called me out for flip flopping
the only way someone couldn't flip flop is if they already know everyone's alignments
I am voting Zach. Please don't shout.-
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By the way momo... just yelling at people is unlikely to make them want to vote with you. And if you're gonna say someone has done something, please check that they've done the thing first.-
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Ah okay thanks for explaining... I didn't expect it to come up now since I posted that quite a while ago.
I also wasn't expecting that kind of reaction momo, but fair enough. It's completely understandable to change your views - everyone does that - but I'd find it easier to follow your changes if you acknowledged that that's what you were doing. It comes across as more contradictory partly because you are so definitive about everything in the first place e.g. 'town would never do this' 'this person is definitely scum', etc.-
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I only push reads I feel really sure on. As I said, I've been reconsidering. If you're gonna ask why I haven't unvoted if I'm 'not really sure'; I only unvote if there is someone else I wanna move that vote to.In post 1005, Fro99er wrote:also, Fen isn't even really pushing Zach...just voting Zach.
And that aside, I like it when people give reasons when they push. I find constant 'VOTE X' 'VOTE Y' posts a real turn-off. Playstyles, I guess.
When did I say I put stock in strong scum meta tells? I said that I use meta; I use it to try and avoid voting people for things that I would find scummy, but which it turns out they always do anyway as town.In post 990, Fro99er wrote:
I'm having a hard reconciling this stance with thisIn post 364, Fenchurch wrote:Meta is relevant if the reasons you think a player is scummy are things that they always do.
you're still ignoring a supposed strong scum meta tell of Zach for your own read, despite putting stock in strong scum meta tells (and I've seen you do some meta-diving of your own)In post 842, Fenchurch wrote:
I dunno. I don't like to rely entirely on someone else's read above my own, especially when I don't know their own alignment, I don't know the reasoning behind it, and I only have one example of her accuracy. But it's something; I'm mulling over.In post 834, Fro99er wrote:So giga/katyusha thinks Zach is town, you know they have a strong meta tell of Zach scum, and you're still okay with voting Zach?
In general, I don't put much stock in reads from other players, pretty much every game I've been in has multiple players insisting that some other player they know can't possibly scum; and usually at least one of them is wrong. Also relating to that...
This makes me feel somewhat less like I wanna put blind faith in Katyusha.In post 1215, Zachstralkita wrote:Now that I know what the tell is I'm going to exploit the shit out of it.-
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Ah - I see how you can read it like you have, but what I was trying to say in that post was the same thing that I did just now. That if someone is doing something you think is "scummy", but it turns out they always do that scummy thing, even in their town games, then meta is important to tell you that.
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"He isn't scumhunting" is probably the crux of most cases I've ever madeIn post 1245, Fro99er wrote:It basically boils down to "he isn't scumhunting"
Scumhunting is the one thing that town have to do and scum have to fake. And then the reason why I'm feeling less strong on it, is that Zach kinda implied that he might not scumhunt that much as town either, at least not in any way that I would consider scumhunting.
I've been over it already, but I still think that one point in particular was a scummy action. If you see other players move votes off someone, do you automatically decide 'oh that player must be town'? Without having seen any evidence for it yourself - would you declare them to be seeming town? The fact that Zach was willing to shows that he actually doesn't care about figuring out who is town. Even if you find scumhunting hard, that doesn't seem a thought process town would have.
I also think his whole OMGUS section against Sleepy and then me, continually failed to give any reason why either of us is actually scum is pretty bad. Eventually he comes up with "I don't think she's trying to find scum." 10 pages later, still with no evidence to back it up.-
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I don't think I have to say it, but there's evidence why it's true for Zach, whereas he just claims the same with absolutely nothing to back it up. wink wink.In post 1259, Thor665 wrote:
I go back and forth on jjh. When he answered me in 897 and said that he'll share opinions when he's more confident of them, that seemed reasonable to me. I also think it's reasonable that he seems to be trying to get more a balance in the game and hear from the less readable people.In post 1259, Thor665 wrote:@Fen - do you townread jjh? I could do with more jjh voting.
You can keep at the Zach angle as a side convo, but I'd like your vote moved.
On the other hand, I don't know how he's townreading Kats. And the fact that he has 'too many townreads' could be a scumtell... when I'm scum, I find it a lot easier to give townreads than scumreads. I could carry on about individual things he's done... but the point is that nothing I think about him is conclusive.
What's your reason for townlean on Zach? And for you, what is the main reason for jjh being scum?-
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Actually just to add; the thing he picked up about hiplop in 944 seemed valid, and like it would come from a town point of view.In post 1267, Fenchurch wrote:is that nothing I think about him is conclusive.-
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In post 1038, davesaz wrote:I'd like to poke sheep a bit though. One of my teammates has a hard scum read there and begged me to pursue it.dave, I noticed this on reading back, although afterwards you also said it was a policy vote/sorting mechanism. Which is it, and if there was a hard scumread, what was it based on?
AlsoIn post 1017, davesaz wrote:To people townreading momo -- this is a game he modded. How does someone who modded a game I was in, saw me vote a gimmick, knows I was town in that game, have that as the reason I'm not town here? (Is he just wrong, or does he know he's wrong???)momo- I don't think you ever responded to this post. Comments?-
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I have no problem with you posting any reads they have, but if you're suggesting it might take a while because they're not up to speed on the game, then this feels a bit like a stalling tactic...In post 1279, Zachstralkita wrote:Don't L-1 me until I can get RC's reads. I know every time I name drop someone on my team momo makes it seem like I'm being coached, but my team hasn't been keeping up with this very well or at all past skims.-
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Yeah, I felt bad about that, because I had basically promised Zach that I would.In post 1676, SleepyKrew wrote:
I'll play ball with thisIn post 1670, Zachstralkita wrote:I have a post where I interact directly with her on parts of her reads and things. She didn't even engage me.
@Fenchurchhow come you didn't respond to 818?
But then when I read it, I couldn't find a way to respond to it that wasn't just me being really mean.
And I don't like being that mean. And it also didn't really seem that it needed a response (like, I didn't think anyone was gonna read it and be persuaded by it). So I didn't.
But I did feel bad for breaking a promise.-
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For Zach and Sleepy: My response to #818. It's actually isn't that mean, there are a couple of good points (sections 4 and 5, maybe) but for the most part it is long and nitpicky and doesn't advance the game, so it's going behind a spoiler.
Spoiler:
<<Fixedcodingviarequest>>-
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Espe - I wanted to know about this too. Why did you react like this? Did you not know there are 3 scum? How many did you think there were?In post 1491, Espeonage wrote:
What is this?In post 1489, davesaz wrote:Yes, I'm aware of that.
There seems to be plenty of good conversation going on.
Why would I want to end that prematurely? There are3 scumto catch, not just 1.
Other people have made posts with suggestions about specific 3-player scumteams they suspect. Did you notice that too?-
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His reads seem made up - he throws loads of scum accusations around but doesn't back any of them up.In post 1740, gerryoat wrote:My team has 2 of his closest friends, they say he is obvious town.
What makes you think he's as red as the nose of a clown?
Can you give reasons for what about his play makes him town? Preferably not in rhyme, because I feel like it constrains your ability to communicate well. Or just... make the sentences really long and put a rhyme word at the end that is unrelated. That would be fine.
I read the post of Zach's that Thor said was town. I actually agree that it did seem town. But I don't think it makes up for all of the rest.-
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Could be waiting for advice from scumbuddies on what to claim?In post 1767, hiplop wrote:this is just fucking ridiculous.
Zach - if you are town then I'd really suggest that you do claim. I can't think of any reason why it'd be better for a player to just let themselves be lynched rather than claim first and let us factor that into our decision. And I can only think of scum reasons for taking ages over doing it.-
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I'm completely confused by the wording of the Hider role PM, since it definitely reads as 'if you target scum you will die' (and I imagine that's what Thor would have assumed, given his crumb, plus that's a standard hider role) but Alisae seems to be saying that is not the case, and if you target scum it just means the hiding action doesn't take place...
At any rate though, it seems clear cut that if Thor died, his hide action didn't work, and that means momo is scum. I've double checked there's not anything else in Thor's history crumbing a target; it's pretty clear.
VOTE: momo
Also I'm not surprised if Katsuki is scum too. Excellent Day 2.
Not so sold on sheep. I believe the claim, but it's true that it doesn't need to be a town role. And without reading the PMs, I would have assumed Thor was killed and Espe was vigged. Depends if you assume that sheep as town would read the PMs.-
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Re-reading Thor’s role, I can’t even tell if it is even supposed to protect him from kills, or just make him untargetable...
Alisae, assuming no other interactions, can you confirm what would happen in the following situations:
a) Thor hides behind town, and someone tries to kill Thor. Thor dies? Y/N
b) Thor hides behind scum, and nobody tries to kill Thor. Thor dies? Y/N
c) Thor hides behind scum, and somebody tries to kill Thor. Thor dies? Y/N
UNVOTE: for now.-
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I am so confused right now.
Why did both hebi and Sleepy die? What vig would have shot either of them? Do the scumteam just have two kills?-
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