Let's Study Games - Redemption Mechanics

[DeathNote]

This site can't handle returnees as a concept so they probably shouldn't exist. I've returned to games twice now and both times felt like hitting a brick wall when you come back. Players alive have no respect for this mechanic and normally that's because people feel safe in their own gameplay so there isn't an attempt to use the mechanic to help themselves.

I just don't think players are going to ever take this mechanic seriously so maybe we just let it die. Now doing variations of it with the fittest challenge isn't bad because the player who gets voted out isn't missing out on gameplay. It's akin to being sent to exile.

Bottom line though, in order for this to work, we have to have a majority of players being willing to accept it as a feasible way to win and I don't think we are there.

[DeathNote]

This site can't handle returnees as a concept so they probably shouldn't exist. I've returned to games twice now and both times felt like hitting a brick wall when you come back. Players alive have no respect for this mechanic and normally that's because people feel safe in their own gameplay so there isn't an attempt to use the mechanic to help themselves.

...

Bottom line though, in order for this to work, we have to have a majority of players being willing to accept it as a feasible way to win and I don't think we are there.

I think these are two opposite problems? If people view returning to the game as being a valid win route, then returnees have a massive target on their back coming in, combined with being at a huge disadvantage given they've been away from all the players who have been bonding, so they're very likely to get revolving door'd. If people view returning to the game as not being a feasible way to win, then the returnees can more easily dodge the target and have significant ability to play their way to the end, but don't stand a chance when they get to FTC.

The fact that normal returnees return premerge and don't get to spend time with the Jury is quite important, imo. It means they have substantially less of a target on their back coming back in, so narrows the problem more to just being about whether people will actually vote for a returnee at the end.

I get what you are trying to say but it just isn't inherently true based on how people in our Meta treat returnees. There isn't a worry that they are a threat in any way and are normally voted out because it's an easy vote despite your inclinations last game that Owl was a threat in some way.

Returning to the game isn't seen as a valid way to win and players who return aren't respected.

[DeathNote]

@skelda

I would also argue that Mipha return wasn't that big of a gap. I missed I think 3 or 4 rounds? I felt like I played a majority of the merge still.

[DeathNote]

I do agree that if people were insistent on putting returnees into the game, then it should be early merge and we should probably know about it when the game starts so we can plan around it. Players tend to lean into their own bias, especially if you make it to late game. I honestly don't think that's the worst thing though, if you reach final 5 then you probably did good work to get there. Being a "goat" isn't as common as people make it out to be.

[DeathNote]

I should add that there is one positive to this mechanic and it's that it feels fucking great to get back into the game. For a brief day or two, you feel kind of unstoppable as if you accomplished something amazing. Short of idoling out your rival or flat out winning the game, I can't think of very few highs as high as returning.

[DeathNote]

I agree with Klick that no one is perfect but the nature of our FTC speeches and how we pitch ourselves is to put up a facade that we made all the right choices and should be the "obvious" winner. Seldom do you see people pointing out their flaws and will often even avoid questions where they are asked to point out their own flaws and that of their opponents.

We can argue why people vote for who in an endgame FTC as much as we want but the bottom line is that we have only had a handful of players even reach endgame as a returnee and never had anyone win so I'm of the opinion that it isn't a mechanic our site meta particularly respects.

[DeathNote]

Arguments about just doing away with returnee twists because a returnee has not been able to win a game yet so not make sense to me.
And I suspect these same people would be arguing for removing them as a thing if a returnee had won a game.

Every game only has 1 winner. With the amount of returnees that have made it to the end so far, there is nothing to actually judge on, just because some have got there does not mean that one should have won.

Because there have been lots of returnee twists and very few have reached FTC with obviously none of them winning. I'd be willing to bet money on returnees not ever winning a game in the next 5 years.


Could it happen eventually? Idk I guess anything is possible but I have serious doubts that this twist provides anything beneficial towards games.

[DeathNote]

To any mods insistent on running this twist again, I have a suggestion in that you should add more eliminations but more returnees. Something that makes the players lose track of who is actually a returnee or at least, lose focus on it as there are just so many anyways. I didn't watch Barely Survivor but Reck talked to me about it and having so many returnees in that game seemed to help him slide under the radar as one and even become a threat to win. (could be bias)

PCW was only possible for me because there were 2 other returnees in the game that people wanted gone before Mipha. Every round started with "Oaki or Oven" though just because they had to keep the returnee numbers in check.

I'm completely fine with merge having 5 or so returnees in it that have returned throughout the game.