Let's Study Games - Redemption Mechanics

[CaptainMeme]

Killing School Semester also had a returnee in Kirumi, I think? But it didn't have much impact iirc and was very early on.

edit: I missed the second page

[CaptainMeme]

Okay so, my own experience of these from both sides:

I've never been *on* Redemption in an online Survivor game, so I can't speak from that perspective. I was on Redemption at Survivormeet 3, but ultimately that was just a chance to chill with all the other redemption people and find out how incredibly awesome of a person PEG is.

_{I'll find that tangram piece someday I swear}

I've (co)run three games with redemption mechanics, two onsite (RtC and BS) and one offsite (webdipvivor). Silver's said basically everything I'd have to say about the BS setup. RtC and webdipvivor both had the same twist where every player began the game with an idol, so it felt important to give players a second chance. I think those, and the 6-player elimination in BS, are circumstances where redemption is reasonable because there's a high chance that people there a) have been eliminated by a twist of some description and so sort of 'deserve' a second chance and b) are actually people who will play, not just inactives.

The returnee twist worked okay-ish in webdipvivor, with the player being voted back in in the same way Equestria's was and with the returnee having a decent impact on the game, but not surviving very long. It was terrible in RtC and looking back, I think the game would have been better off without it, mainly because it caused long delays and resulted in an immediate revolving door. The BS returnees ended up being a considerable force in the game, but at the same time I don't think that a lot of the key returnees/near returnees (especially Rey, Michael) would have been eliminated had the 6-elimination twist not been a thing in the first place, so I suspect they would have had a fairly high impact on the game anyway.

Honestly, even with the best implementation and best result (BS) it probably wasn't worth the hassle. A whole bunch of people dropped out instead of playing, leaving the returnees really just waiting around with nothing to do for a big chunk of time, and making the situation pretty irritating for us as mods to handle. Looking back taking out the 6-elim and redemption as a whole would have been okay by me.


On the player side of things... Returnees have killed me a couple times. In Rick and Morty Big Brother, literally the only thing the returnee did was come back, eliminate me, get voted out again, and get their closest ally voted out too. In PvCvW Mipha was responsible for my death, although that was damn good play on their part and was a move that got them to the end; it also wasn't really a direct consequence of the returnee situation given they came back considerably earlier than that happened.

The one that sticks in my mind the most is obviously the most recent one, with EoE. Honestly looking back we all should have realised there was obviously an EoE far earlier than we did, but god... discovering EoE when we did was absolutely soul-crushing, I think Bella can back me up on this one. Survivor is often about handling twists and turns, but a completely unpredictable twist - since we didn't know who would be back - that late into the game, when we'd fought so hard to get that far, was just devastating. I know from reading specforum and confs afterward that Snowy Owl was actually correct that they were never going to win, but from the perspective of someone who couldn't see what was going on over there, there was also a huge feeling of 'we've been spending all this time making enemies and having to worry about jury management, while whoever is about to come back has gotten to sit back and talk to people as they vent their frustrations and be there for them'. I guess that's less a thing here than in actual survivor but knowing that they were dumped back into the game at a point where they just had to win two challenges to get to FTC, when they were confirmed to be good at challenges by the fact they were back, felt really unfair too.

Obviously none of that manifested itself. I beat Owl to immunity, and everyone kind of mutually agreed that the four of us had been okay with us being the F4 before, so we'd stick to that F4. It resulted in something extremely anticlimatic, probably extremely disappointing for Owl + specs, and overall ended up being a bit of a waste of time - but I'm happier it went that way than anyone else being eliminated because it just felt so incredibly unfair that someone else could have been taken out by a twist that late.

I probably have stronger feelings on that one than most, but I think if a returnee twist happens, it really needs to be earlier than that. Like much, much earlier.

[CaptainMeme]

Oh, should say Trixie/Pinkie Pie had a huge impact in Equestria, not just in Pinkie Pie returning but in the ripples the vote itself sent through the game. Fluttershy ended up being taken out as a direct result of that.

I really liked that Redemption. I imagine Flutter liked it less. Someone'll usually be screwed by these twists, but I'm more okay with it when it happens in the premerge than right at the end of the game

[CaptainMeme]

I've seen a fair bit of Survivor so knew Redemption was a thing to potentially look out for there. I should say though, when PBH returned in Rick & Morty Big Brother I was very disappointed at the time (because I'd just made a big move to take him out, and hadn't considered returnees to be likely in a 12-person game) and was told that I should have taken the possibility into account because 'battlebacks are a normal twist in Big Brother'. Obviously I wasn't aware of this!

Be careful saying 'X is a staple mechanic of Survivor so everyone will know it' or suchlike. Not everyone who plays online watches the actual show.

[CaptainMeme]

This site can't handle returnees as a concept so they probably shouldn't exist. I've returned to games twice now and both times felt like hitting a brick wall when you come back. Players alive have no respect for this mechanic and normally that's because people feel safe in their own gameplay so there isn't an attempt to use the mechanic to help themselves.

...

Bottom line though, in order for this to work, we have to have a majority of players being willing to accept it as a feasible way to win and I don't think we are there.

I think these are two opposite problems? If people view returning to the game as being a valid win route, then returnees have a massive target on their back coming in, combined with being at a huge disadvantage given they've been away from all the players who have been bonding, so they're very likely to get revolving door'd. If people view returning to the game as not being a feasible way to win, then the returnees can more easily dodge the target and have significant ability to play their way to the end, but don't stand a chance when they get to FTC.

The fact that normal returnees return premerge and don't get to spend time with the Jury is quite important, imo. It means they have substantially less of a target on their back coming back in, so narrows the problem more to just being about whether people will actually vote for a returnee at the end.

[CaptainMeme]

RtC: MvM eliminated at TC 6 (F11), returned TC 7 (F10->F11), Eliminated same TC

Barely Survivor:
note: I count the Shipwreck as the time when the Hole returnees returned. They were technically officially returned to the game a little earlier as their own tribe, but they did not meet up with the other players again until shipwreck. Michael Cera and Zero III would technically classify as returnees if I counted the time their new tribe formed as the moment of return.

Dark Rey eliminated TC1 (F24), returned TC10 (F11 -> F13), Survived to FTC and lost 4-3-1 as the 3
Cleric eliminated TC1 (F24, returned TC10 (F11 -> F13), eliminated same TC (F13), returned TC13 (F10 -> F11), eliminated TC19 (F5) on firemaking
Grogu eliminated TC7 (F12), returned TC9 (F10->F12), eliminated TC20 (F4) on firemaking
Ranger eliminated TC7 (F12), returned TC9 (F10->F12), eliminated TC12 (F11)

[CaptainMeme]

If we aren't counting survivor meet, the only game I had a returnee mechanic for was PCW:

Oaki was the 3rd boot, Ancient Oven was one of the two 4th boots, both returned at f13 merge (3 rounds on RC for Oaki, 2 rounds for Ancient Oven). Mipha was idoled out during the 7th vote and returned 3 rounds later at the final 9 from RC. All three finalists made the final 9. Oaki was then eliminated officially in 9th, Ancient Oven 7th and Mipha lost FTC 6-5-4 (she was the 5, though one of those votes was an advantage an ally gave her).

RC = Resurrection Chamber which was like RI, but you have lives and can opt to quit at any time like EoE (which 3 people chose to do).

Should be noted here (if I'm remembering correctly?) Oaki won every single immunity from his return until his elimination, otherwise he probably would have gone home earlier.