[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Realeo]

My reaction ix mixed there. The series of scum hunting sounds good, but the wager is not.

Do you realize that when players are closing to the 30 points, everybody will wager everything, removing the strategic part of the game?

[Realeo]

Let's try this setup

Hunter gonna hunt

3 Town Vanilla

1 Normal Traitor

(know the mafia team but not the other way around. Endgamed if mafia is dead)

1 Mafia Goon with factional kill

If a

Town Vanilla

is lynched, he turned into

1 shot day vig

before lynched.

Town wins if Mafia Goon is killed

.

Mafia Goon and Traitor wins if all 3 TV is killed or nothing can prevent that.

Possible scenario:

1. Town lynched, shot Mafia Goon:

Town win

2. Traitor lynched: Proceed to d2
3. Town lynched, shot Normal Traitor:

Mafia

win
4. Mafia lynched:

Town

win
5. NL: It comes down to

Mafia Goon

kill

Deadline:
1st day: 14 IRL days
Day vig kill: 7 IRL days
Night: 48 IRL hours
2nd day: 10 IRL days

[Realeo]

and feels like it should be something played in a face to face/Marathon sort of setup more than a Mafia setup.

In fact i found the micro i was in that was like this but with actual mafia kn

Possibly.. I was inspired by Jungle of Bullshit

[Realeo]

So, opinions?

New and Improved

Mafia A Goon
Mafia A Roleblocker

Mafia B Goon
Mafia B Roleblocker

3xBP townie
2xVT townie

I think if you make this a day-start, this will be very optimal.

[Realeo]

Let us try this

Zombie game

7

healthy town

2

sick

zombie

Day start

with zombie having factional kill

. Nightless. The game follows the normal mechanic with a twist.

EDIT: It is now changed from nightless -> factional kill explain at 8779

During day phase, two players may

touch

if

both

agrees.

If two

sick

player touches each other, nothing happens.
If two healthy player touches each other, town

secretly

receives 1 point.
If one player is a

healthy town

while the other is

sick

town

or

sick

zombie

, the

healthy town

secretly

becomes

sick

town

.

As many touches can happen in a day, but two players who already touched each other may not touch again with each other for the rest of the game. (If in D1, Realeo touched with callforjudgement. Both Realeo and callforjudgement may not touch each other any more for the rest of the game, but I can still touch Mina and callforjudgement can still touch Mina.)

Town wins if both zombie is dead or town wins 10 points (that is 5 town touching each other. 5C2 = 10). Zombie wins if every town is dead (or nothing can prevent them) or everyone is sick.

[Realeo]

During day start, two players may

touch

if

both

agrees.

So is this only possible at day start (as in 24 hours sort of thing) or is it all day and you misworded?

Idiotism at my part. It's miswording.

[Realeo]

The best idea is to town hunt because of the need for only 5 touches, i'm sure there would be a way to break it by either forming blocks (a 4 man town block is an instant win for town a 3 man block is a win for town if your certain they are all town), or touching in a specific order.

I'm going to defend and discuss some point.

1) I believe you're under looking the difficulty of having 5 people town reading

each other

. 3 people townreading each other is manageable, 4 town townreading each other is tricky. 5 town townreading each other?

I believe 5 people is the magic number here. It's tough, but it's not the only winning objective they can pick. The bloc system that cfj and Mina proposes is the only winning condition, so I found it too strict?

2) And remember it only takes 1 incorrect town read screws it all.
3) Scumread is still necessary. If they lynch and the lynched guy flip zombie, they can backtrack who is sick and healthy and do crisis management.

This is going to be a subjective discussion. I'd like to hear your experience on townreading.

Question: Does setup that puts emphasis on townreading solely is bad?

[Realeo]

7:2 Nightless is already an EV of 56% for the town

Ew...Where is the closest trash bin?

[Realeo]

I was considering to make the game with night kill, but I realized that if they decided to make it night kill, they can intentionally kill the health player to satisfy "kill all sick player to win"

[Realeo]

That's a smart plan; they can either risk the towniest to get the win or play it conservatively. But the downside that I see is it will be more "hintful" than the current bloc system.

Let's try this. The zombie can kill the healthy player; while all player at the same time give a priority list during night. If the zombie kills a healthy town, the healthiness will

secretly

go to the sick town at the most top of the dead's priority list so the sick town becomes healthy town.

Eg. Jason Wazza is a healthy town killed with priority list of cja>Realeo>Mina>mith>shos.

Cja is zombie, so he is passed.
Realeo is healthy town, so he is passed.
Mina is a sick town, so Mina secretly transforms from sick town to healthy town.

Since this is somewhat "mountainous", Project EV says this is 29.8% town win. Whether the actual EV is higher due to the 10 touches or lower due to nightkill is somewhat a mystery...

[Realeo]

The thing that I'm having trouble is: when the game is being modded, how the townbloc creation system works?

Do players make their list of "I nominate mith, Realeo, cfj, JasonWazza and RC for townbloc of 5" and it takes 5 vote to go on? If it takes this approach, I am afraid that it may takes forever for the people to vote ("JasonWazza is town? Are you nuts? Go for N instead! "N is scummy as hell!") and when they're finished, they will be not enough time to scum hunt for the lynch.

For instance: We played Micro 601 with 8:1, and when the game ends, the biggest "implicit" town bloc we created was 4 people? This was 1 sk, what if 2 mafia?

The cute thing about

the touch system

is

flexibility

. Ok, so you can't make a townbloc of 5? Sure,

no problemo

. Just make a townbloc of 4, then have each person of the townbloc touch a person outside the townbloc. If the gang of 4 all did it correctly, that's 6 + 4 = 10 points. If the gang of 4 is correct but someone messed up, they still get 6+ points for the 4 townbloc.

Both strategy has their ups and downs. If they go for the townbloc of 5, it will be more informative and they can contain the sickness inside the bloc. If they go for the townbloc of 4, it will be more easy to go for 10 points (in D2) as long as they got the townbloc of 4 correct. If the townbloc of 4 is already wrong, it's game over.

Q: Why people keep calling it mountainous? Can they just call it "classic" or "vanilla"?

EDIT: Now I need to consider the EV for 4 townbloc.

[Realeo]

Extending the deadline, that's an interesting idea. All the game I played had static deadline that it didn't occur to me for dynamic deadline.

@JasonWazza: It should be no.

Now I need to find a paper to find the possibility the strategy town picked. It didn't occur to me that there is strategy that prevent auto-loss.

[Realeo]

Let's try this: an improvement of Zombie Game.

Townbloc +1

7 Town Vanilla
2 Mafia goon with factional kill

During Day 1, Town may try to create a townbloc of 4 players. If a majority agrees on this townbloc, the deadline will be extended by 48 hours. The townbloc using majority must agree on a player outside the townbloc. If all 4 players of the townbloc + the chosen player is town, the game is won by Town. Everything else, the game proceeds to classic mafia.

So classic 7:2 is

Win by the townbloc: 16,66% (C(7,4)/C(9,4)*3/5)
Win by normal scenario: 29,8% * 83,33% = 24,89%

So the EV is 41,55%, just like the bus coalition. To townbloc of 4 or townbloc of 5, that is the question.

[Realeo]

Un named BP variant

1x BP One Shot Vig
2x Even Night BP Townie
2x Odd Night BP Townie

1x Mafia Goon
1x 1 Shot Mafia Strong Man

My first approach was to run a computer simulation to calculate the EV, but the strong man and the 1 shot vig causes me to hiccup when coding.

[Realeo]

I have a question. Does a setup with EV of town/mafia/SK = 33/42/25 can be considered balanced enough?

[Realeo]

I thought that I should make it as even as possible (33/33/33) because a lot of people start to hate SK for being impossible like skill-less survivor.

[Realeo]

I may as well throw in the idea I have in my hea

Russian Roulette Mafia

7 Vanilla Town
1 Town Roleblocker
2 Mafia Goon
1 Terrorist (Roleblocker Immune)

Town wins when both mafia and serial killer are eliminated and at least 1 Town member is alive.
Mafia wins when both mafia and all town are eliminated (or nothing that can prevent that) and at least 1 Mafia member is alive.
Terrorist wins when all mafia member and all town member are eliminated (or nothing that can prevent that). Terrorist is not required to be alive.

Mafia does not necessarily win with majority.

Day phase:
Classic Mafia with majority vote.

Night phase:
At the beginning of the game, each player has an empty revolver.

• Each town member will secretly give a bullet to another player.
  
• Roleblocker may block a plyer from using his bullet action.
  
• The Mafia faction will have factional 2 bullets that they can send secretly. If both mafia are alive, they can split the bullet (ie. Have each goon send 1 bullet to different target/same target). If only 1 goon is alive, the goon must send both bullet to one target
  
• The terrorist will kill a player directly without the Russian Roulette mechanism.

A revolver has 6 chambers. If a player has at least 6 bullets, the player is night-killed. If in a night phase, no one is night-killed due to the "6 bullets rule", the player with the most bullet is night-killed. If there is a tie, no one is night-killed due to the bullet.

Bullets from previous night carries on to the next night.

Action Resolve:
1. Roleblocker
2. Bullet
3. Terrorists kill
4. 6 Bullet Rule
5. No nightkill rule

Kingmaker prevention:
If a dayphase starts with Town Roleblocker / Terrorist / Mafia Goon, the game thread is locked and the game enters the special phase. The Town Roleblocker is given 48 hours to guess who is the Serial Killer. If Town Roleblocker guesses correctly, Town/Terrorist joint-win. If Town Roleblocker guesses incorrectly, Terrorist wins alone.
Town Vanilla / Terrorist / Mafia Goon is not a kingmaker situation.

EV:
According to computer simulation--The EV is 33% for Town, 42% for Mafia and 25% for terrorist.

Caveat:
It is for Terrorist's favour to not kill Town Roleblocker to help Terrorist compensate for Mafia. When both mafia are eliminated, Town Roleblocker essentially become Named Townie and it is in Terrorist's favour to kill him.
In a 3 way lylo with Roleblocker, it is wise for Roleblocker to claim.
"""