[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[Mr. Flay]

Night Start? I can envision a very randomized D1.... you could potentially kill all the scum, or all but one, or wake up to a lost game.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, but you're potentially knocking some people out of the game before they get a chance to play (either by posting, or using their single shot). So you've set up a situation where the more you think you'll be killed N1, the more likely you are to use your shot N1 to avoid it being wasted.... I think things will be MUCH more informed and fun with Day Start.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, it does sound like the best strategy for town is to No Lynch and let scum immolate themselves on the Gun Owners... way swingy.

If the town gives absolutely no clues, I think the scum's chances of winning are exactly 1/2, which is sort of nifty.

[Mr. Flay]

Then you're just harming the town.

[Mr. Flay]

Can more than one mafia kill in a row? Can they use both shots in a row?

[Mr. Flay]

It's still full of non-normal mechanics, Pooky. I think C9 does an okay job at balance, because 2-1-1-3 is wildly in favor of the town and 2-5 is wildly in favor of the scum, but you never know what you'll get. Percentages could be a little shifted, maybe, but most of the problem comes from self-destructing newbies, IMO.

[Mr. Flay]

I've seen many many more town newbies melt down than scum newbies, but maybe that's because I've been scum more often. I like the fact that two 'bad' lynches (i.e. didn't go their way) decide the game for either side, in most cases.

Usually if you can get one scum, you can get both. If you can't ever get that first one though, it's tough.

[Mr. Flay]

Nominate Fire and Ice v2

, per Idele. Looks fun.

[Mr. Flay]

Ooops, yeah, I interpreted it as "if Fire targets A and Ice targets A, A lives". I don't see why they should be immune to each other, except maybe for balance reasons (haven't run any simulations on it).

[Mr. Flay]

Thesp, I made you a wiki sysop in case you ever need to 'freeze' a setup, delete a bad idea, make one 'official', or whatever...

[Mr. Flay]

Dethy is perfectly fine in complexity, but it's pretty much a numbers game if you can get someone to break it. Not sure all players will like that (either the numbers ones or the regular players)...

[Mr. Flay]

Open Countdown is a little susceptible to metagaming, if one or two players are idle/on vacation and the SK doesn't kill... otherwise, kind of neat (and yeah, I'd go with 10-14 days).

[Mr. Flay]

nominate: dark knight

Don't use alts to create the impression of support, please.

(yes, I know you're announced in the AAA thread, but this is not a good habit to get into)

[Mr. Flay]

The other problem with Large Mountainous is it gets

tedious

. With only one group able to kill (besides lynches), that game will take a

minimum

of 9 Day/Night cycles for scum to reach endgame. That's the better part of a year, around here...

[Mr. Flay]

There's 12 power slots, so players would already know what was in the game, just not who had it, same as any other Open.

I'm concerned that it might be more swingy as a Mini, but you'd also get to run a couple of them in 14 months time to test that theory.

[Mr. Flay]

The first two seem possible, but weighted toward the Mafia.

Electoral College: A group of 2 or 1 requires unanimity to lynch scum, so any scum there are unlynchable. I assume the town gets 4 votes total (one from each group) to lynch, which makes it very unlikely that the town will actually get to lynch (again, they'd need 3 votes out of 4). Odd numbered groups might work better.

CTF: Interesting idea, but it seems like it would be fairly easy for scum to get enough people mislynched in one game to make the other a moot game through no fault of their own. Remember that C9 is somewhat biased toward scum...C9+2 might work though (are you listening, Zindy?)...

Wow, I totally conflated CTF with Tale of Two Towns, sorry...

[Mr. Flay]

Isn't C9 just a 7 player game? The CTF setup calls for 12.

Yeah, I was totally looking at the wrong game there, my apologies...

[Mr. Flay]

In addition, that setup needs a wildly different name, because it's very different from Mountainous Mafia. DonnerMafia, maybe?

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, Kelly's solution about NKs might help, or I was thinking that the Targets could have some sort of Bomb choice; if they're lynched, they choose whether or not to blow up their lyncher. Might be a mistaken townie, might be scum looking for an additional kill....

In general though, I'm against these Lyncher games where scum only go after certain people. What if they're not acting in a scummy manner?

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, but since Mountainous has always been a scum win, I don't see how a game with additional scum benefits can be balanced.

[Mr. Flay]

SEAG mafia

3x mafia.
1x 1-shot vig.
1x SEAG -- NK immune PGO (vanilla PM).
7x vanilla.

ULAP.

[Mr. Flay]

Use Less Acronyms, Please.

[Mr. Flay]

Not discussing at night is okay (not great) in In Person games, because there's a chance you can communicate when no one is looking. But when EVERYTHING has to be in code, in thread, for everyone to see, it shifts the balance considerably...

See: Hobbit Mafia, Mafia Mafia (I think that was the title of it, with Mafia as the Uninformed Majority and evil Townies). I've played two of these, would not willingly play another.

[Mr. Flay]

Well, in fairness my dissatisfaction with non-talking Scum groups is when the group also has to make a collective decision, which happened in both those games. Having a Godfather/Decider would have made that much less onerous:

The Troll Mafia in Hobbit couldn't talk at night, and we had to all three agree somehow on what our nightkill would be. If two of the three of us agreed, we had a 50% chance to kill.

The Pro-Town scum group I was part of in Mafia Mafia (the other was made up of Law Enforcement roles, and more normal) had their nightkill decided by whoever that group voted for most during the day. Again, fairly easily trackable.

[Mr. Flay]

Nominate: Superkill

- could be worth a try.

[Mr. Flay]

I think in a game with that many killers, allowing the single other power role to self-protect is a necessary balancer.

[Mr. Flay]

Uhhh, what result are you expecting the Cop to get? "Goldfish"?

[Mr. Flay]

I don't think Unlynchee is workable, and it certainly doesn't meet the definition of Normal.

[Mr. Flay]

Assassins in the Palace.

[Mr. Flay]

Second Texas Justice. I liked several of the other Justices thrown about, but they're probably not Normal. Neither is AITP (or Vengeful, really...)

[Mr. Flay]

No I understand that, and think 5-p Vengeful has a place. But a 7-player game has many more options available to it.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeh, that many sane cops may make for an interesting game, but I'm pretty sure it's not Mafia anymore at that point...

[Mr. Flay]

Second: Mountainous Multiball

- I want to see how that turns out.

Kill with fire: C7F837GJN29T639FH

[Mr. Flay]

Seems like you'd want to avoid the Scum Flag missing the winning strategy then, and just name the Flags as Open Roles from the beginning of the game.

[Mr. Flay]

There's ongoing Pie E7s in the Newbie Queue right now, as many as you like.

But you do "have" to play with new folks...

[Mr. Flay]

I think advocacy for millers knowing that they are millers is a relatively recent thing.

[Mr. Flay]

How would you resolve day-protection against a day-kill?

[Mr. Flay]

Ugh. CPR Docs are hella confusing...

[Mr. Flay]

Ugh, please don't re-run Jester Mafia under the same winner-take-all rules. It's abysmally unbalanced...

Just Try Claiming sounds kind of interesting, actually. I'd second that...

[Mr. Flay]

I'll second multiball. It's probably viable, beginner's luck notwithstanding...

[Mr. Flay]

Godfather (kill-immune) then.

I've seen them both ways here.

Back on topic I agree with Xyl here. GF means whatever you want, up to and including lynch-proof, kill-proof, investigation-proof, and kill-deciding.

[Mr. Flay]

Angel Nightless

(I'm planning on running this on Marathon Day, and if it works, as a Mini Theme)

3X Seraphim, X of whom are in a single scum faction.

Seraphim have the following powers:

• Defend <player>
  
• Attack <player> (twice as effective as defending)

Unsure yet for balance reasons whether attacks should be in-thread. I'm pretty sure defenses should be private, or else the scum percentage should be increased.

Once a player has X Attacks-Defends on them, they are cast out (dead).

OR

(taking a cue from Damage Nightless)

Seraphim all start with 6 HP, and have the following powers:

• Hit <player> for 1 HP of damage.
  
• Heal <player> by donating one HP to them via mod PM.

This may be trickier because if the mod posts too frequently, you can tell specifically who is healing someone. Keeping current HPs a secret might work.

Once a player has 0 HP them, they are cast out (dead).

[Mr. Flay]

no, play this instde

[Mr. Flay]

I was originally envisioning it being 'transfer one of yours to another player', but I kind of like your 'overkill' idea. Maybe if they go above 11/12?

Anyway, Simenon is probably right, I'll repost this in the thread for games that aren't destined for the Open Queue.

[Mr. Flay]

8 Player Setup That I Haven't Named Yet

Day Start

1 Mafia Boss
1 Mafia Hitman
1-2 of [Tracker, Jailkeeper, One-shot Vigilante]
4-5 Townies

Only the Hitman can kill. Mafia win when the town is unable to eliminate them (not at 50%; so Boss/Hitman/Jailkeeper/Vig or Boss/Vig are still winnable for the town).

So the Boss makes the choice, but the Hitman carries out the action? Eeenteresting... does the boss have 1-shot NK immunity? What happens to the Boss if the Hitman is lynched D1 (avoiding the Pie E7 problem)?

[Mr. Flay]

AITP Suggestion:

For games large enough to have 2 khalifs, inform each who the other is. This makes the game a lot better, as the khalifs no longer have to hold back out of fear of voting the other one and messing everything up.

From what I read of the big game played in Theme Park, isn't that the biggest tell the assassins used to ID the kings? It seems like that might push things pretty heavily towards the town.

No, the issue with the big game was D1 one king made a comment asking if there was something he should know about someone (aka he didn't know if they were khalif) and D3 a couple players decided the best way to react to a vote on a khalif by an assassin was instant lynch the assassin.

Even still, having the khalifs/kings and the assassins symmetrical in their knowledge is the ONLY thing that keeps that game remotely balanced.

[Mr. Flay]

Polygamist Mafia 2.0

Can we avoid making 2.0 until 1.0 runs and can be critiqued effectively?

[Mr. Flay]

Well, I'm fine with subbing in 2.0 for 1.0, it just seems silly to try to run both at once...

[Mr. Flay]

See Lost Boys (in Theme Park) for a similar game. It may or may not be as cool as you think it will be...

Potential D1 losses suck, though.

[Mr. Flay]

Stupid Lyncher

1 lyncher who is

not

informed of his target
1 Target
3 mafia
7 Townies

Please no. Lyncher is a bad enough role

normally

...

[Mr. Flay]

Mafia Wars

1 Mafia Godfather A
3 Mafia A Goons
1 Mafia Godfather B
3 Mafia B Goons
1 Mafia Godfather C
3 Mafia C Goons
1 Mafia Godfather D
3 Mafia D Goons

Nightless
All members of each mafia know who eachother are.

Mafia team wins when all other mafia godfathers are killed. Goons may activate one instant kill at any time. After goon activates kill, he dies. Godfather can not kill.

Lynches initiate upon 1/2 majority.

See Rock Paper Scissors or Gay Mafia for why this won't work... you NEED an uninformed group (or individual, I guess) to play this game.

Ditto for

Friends are Enemies

.

[Mr. Flay]

Mayo Clinic Mafia

2 Mafia Doctors
1 Mafia Goon
6 Doctors
2 Compulsive Vigs
1 Compulsive Sk

Looks like fun, but you might tone down the number of Docs?

2 Mafia Docs will circle protect each night and are thus a NK immune pair until one gets lynched. Don't know if that was by design.

Also how does an early Massclaim effect the Compuslive Killers. Seems a decent town strat would be to have the vigs claim D1 so some Docs can protect them. This also give a 1/3 chance of knowing the SK as Compulsive Vig would be his likely safe claim.

What about removing the SK, two protown Docs and a Mafia Doc?

Each doc protect only protects against a single NK attempt. With 4 NKs a night a single player will need double protection to prevent a nk in many cases. I don't see a massclaim really resolving anything until at least the third day.

Looks like fun; I'll

Nominate: Mayo Clinic

(or whatever the name ends up being)

.

[Mr. Flay]

Sounds like a good game, but this is more of a Theme Game than a Open Game, I think (the Open Game setups are supposed to be generic and repeatable, IIRC).

[Mr. Flay]

The 6 females stay in the same place and the males move in order through the women. One pairing is lynched and the rotation continues

Wha-huh? I don't get it...

[Mr. Flay]

...

Okay, but I don't get it. Are the pairs temporary Lovers or something? What's the

point

of the mechanism, or is it just confusing flavor?

[Mr. Flay]

Didn't AITP just get two back-to-back runs?

[Mr. Flay]

It also could work because the Goons will drop some tells regarding the GF (think AITP).

Weird, but possible.

[Mr. Flay]

Ugh, good point.

[Mr. Flay]

I definitely prefer setup B.

[Mr. Flay]

I request

that version of

Texas Justice Mafia be taken out of open rotation.

Fixed for you.

Seriously, who passed

8

9 one-shot vigs and one scum-kill-a-night as a good setup?!?

[Mr. Flay]

Actually, that setup has

9

OSV's. It was suggested in the game thread to change it to 8 (which would make the setup have an odd number of players, and Fonz's system would no longer work).

Thanks for the correction; my real point was that it's not TJ that's inherently broken, just that formulation.

[Mr. Flay]

It doesn't mean it can't be run again, or similarly. But it's worth looking at that game to see what went right and what went poorly, there.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8144

[Mr. Flay]

Why do you believe the scum would always pick the same pairs?

Why wouldn't they.

Because the mod will tell them they can't, that's why.

That's a

bad idea

. If there's no clear motivation to do something, the mod shouldn't make them do it.

LOL WUT? Mods make balance decisions all the time...

I don't like the setup idea, but this objection strikes me as nonsensical.

[Mr. Flay]

Serial Killer:

1 Serial Killer
1 Doctor
7 Townies

Very very random. SK has no tells except Doc-hunting.

[Mr. Flay]

I reaaaaaaaallly don't like adding more Dethy Variants to the Open Game rotation. More times than not, they just end up becoming logic puzzles, rather than Mafia games.

and it is pretty much not mafia.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

[Mr. Flay]

Steady Bulletproof Shipments

I like the concept, but I'm also

liking

unsure about the numbers. Endgame might be a bit funny, though... what about "When everyone has a vest, superior numbers win (Mafia win ties)."?

I don't like Z*W*V at all.

[Mr. Flay]

But... I didn't give numbers.

Sorry, wrote that when I was really sleepy. Meant to say "I'm also unsure about the numbers".

[Mr. Flay]

X Day really,

really

isn't Normal, guys.

Setup Guidelines

In order to be eligible for the Open Game list, a setup must fit the Normal Game definition.

[Mr. Flay]

Hangman

1 Lyncher A
1 Lynchee A
1 Lyncher B
1 Lynchee B
8 Vanilla Townies

Not Mafia.

[Mr. Flay]

Isn't Assassins pretty much broken at this point?

[Mr. Flay]

Isn't Assassins pretty much broken at this point?

Oh?

AFAIK, the optimal strategy that has evolved is to lynch as fast as possible with minimal discussion, to avoid dropping tells about who the King is. The Assassins are reduced to killing at random, which doesn't sound like much of a game to me.

[Mr. Flay]

Huh-wha? If it's an Open Setup, doesn't everybody know there's an SK?

[Mr. Flay]

Question: Is the purpose of the Open Game Queue to move things along as fast as possible?

Be honest, please; I see an awful lot of

terrible

setups here those primary advantage seems to be that they can be played quickly, either to get around the months-long-game syndrome or the year-long-mod-queue in Mini Normal.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not throwing rocks, I genuinely want to know if people believe in the setups they nominate. I've commented on a few genuinely bad setups, but I don't read this thread very often, because most Open Games don't appeal to me. When I

do

come here, I see a lot of 5-9 player games with lots of killing roles, Lovers, and other ways to increase the body count/speed. New C9 is the standout exception.

Maybe I'm selectively reading. Maybe I'm missing something. That's why I asked. But it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that of the first page of Little Italy, completed Mini Normals have an average length of 749 posts, while Open Games have an average length of less than 479 posts.

[Mr. Flay]

Perhaps because Opens are generally smaller? They also have more information with which to work.

Perhaps, but controlling for # of players, Opens are still only 83% the length of Mini Normals. I'll go on to older games here in a bit...

::edit:: Medians are closer: 58.8 posts/player vs. 62.4p/p. I am certainly willing to be wrong here.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, I can't see any way to make a game with Death Millers fair or fun.

[Mr. Flay]

But totally shafting Town's scumhunting is acceptably evil?

Look, ANY role in which you lynch someone and then

cannot know if you really caught scum or not

is bastardly in my opinion. It aims right at the heart of the town's primary mechanism for getting rid of scum (Coroner games are slightly less bastardly, but extremely swingy).

[Mr. Flay]

You know what I'd like to see?

2 people sharing one role (I mean 2 people getting the same cop).

S'been done a couple times:
http://greylabyrinth.com/discussion/vie ... php?t=9891
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4007

Seemed to go over well. Also, I agree with you about Insane Trackers.

[Mr. Flay]

They're paired Jesters, though. Let's call a spade a spade...

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, uPick used to be a common variant on scumchat and several forum games have been played successfully in the model, but it's not really anything like an 'Open Setup'.

[Mr. Flay]

Why do the Mimes investigate as Innocent? Wouldn't that hinder their chances of getting lynched?

What would making them both Roleblockers do to the balance? It kinda fits with the "Mimes are so *(^%^$*& annoying" flavor of the game...

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, one vig, no cop, seems much more balanced to me. As Kinetic says, that makes the whole 'what do they investigate as' thing irrelevant.

I'm not sure the Mafia should have internal Lovers, though. What about:
2 Mafia Goons
2 Mimes
1 Watcher
1 Vigilante
5 Townies

..or 2 Watchers and 3 Mafiosos.

[Mr. Flay]

A joint RB sounds fine; I was using the recent definition of Mimes as Paired Jesters rather than 'Scum Faction with a NK', so no NK was assumed, sorry I should have made that explicit.

[Mr. Flay]

To be clear, it's NOT my setup; Adel should still get full credit for it, but I'll

second

it (with the Mimes' joint RB) to help get it on the roster.

I'm curious to see what happens with this setup, and no longer think it's brokenated.

[Mr. Flay]

Speaking of Dethy, this is just an idea I had the other day. Would a Dethy setup where the Mafia doesn't have an NK work? I like Dethy, but the low number of days kind of favors scum. Would taking the Mafia's NK even it more, or would it tilt it toward town

too

much.

I've never played dethy, but it's more of a logic puzzle than Mafia, so more days would probably tilt things

rapidly

toward Town.

Also, you'd never be able to NK your Sane/Insane Cop, which is gamebreaking.