[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Wake1]

Once I host my first game in Open Setup on, iirc, Nov 3rd, could I choose to run a

Rebels in the Palace

setup?

[Wake1]

I want to create a popular Open Setup structure that becomes a part of standard Mafia play.

Factions are complex, and neat. The game in Open Setup would have 21 players.

The possibilities on what could be in this game are immense. But, once made, I want the setup to be permanent. ...I think Neutral factions with very certain wincons would be allowed in the Open Setup forum. One thing that sounds fun is having a Lyncher and a Lynchee, and only the Lyncher knows the Lynchee; however, the Lynchee can't be NK'd and is totally neutral along with the Lyncher. I'm also tinkering with the idea of a Serial Killer that's Bulletproof and is a Godfather... but can't kill anyone... so has to rely heavily on its wit.


Slot 1 ~ Lyncher (Wins when gets Lynchee lynched. Not part of Town.)
Slot 2 ~ Lynchee (Loses when lynched by Lyncher, wins when Lynchee dies; can't be NK'd. Not part of Town.)
Slot 3 ~ Serial Killer (Buffed with NK and investigation immunity, but can't kill anything)
Slot 4 ~ Neutral Faction A (Must kill factions B & C to win) (Doesn't need to kill Town or Scum) (Roleblocker/Doc/Tracker)
Slot 5 ~ Neutral Faction A (Must kill factions B & C to win) (Doesn't need to kill Town or Scum) (Roleblocker/Doc/Tracker)
Slot 6 ~ Neutral Faction B (Must kill factions A & C to win) (Doesn't need to kill Town or Scum) (Roleblocker/Doc/Tracker)
Slot 7 ~ Neutral Faction B (Must kill factions A & C to win) (Doesn't need to kill Town or Scum) (Roleblocker/Doc/Tracker)
Slot 8 ~ Neutral Faction C (Must kill factions A & B to win) (Doesn't need to kill Town or Scum) (Roleblocker/Doc/Tracker)
Slot 9 ~ Neutral Faction C (Must kill factions A & B to win) (Doesn't need to kill Town or Scum) (Roleblocker/Doc/Tracker)
Slot 10 ~ Team A Mafia Goon
Slot 11 ~ Team A Mafia Roleblocker
Slot 12 ~ Team B Mafia Goon
Slot 13 ~ Team B Mafia Roleblocker
Slot 14 ~ Town Cop
Slot 15 ~ Town Doctor
Slot 16 ~ Town Jailkeeper
Slot 17 ~ Town Roleblocker
Slot 18 ~ Vanilla Townie
Slot 19 ~ Vanilla Townie
Slot 20 ~ Vanilla Townie
Slot 21 ~ Vanilla Townie

I'm not sure what to do if/when one of the three factions win. I Suppose they could keep playing, and decide whether to go after Town or Scum... or maybe I'd just have them win and then exit the game. I dunno. No faction can use two Doc/Cop/Tracker abilities during the same Night. One member of faction A can roleblock someone while the other investigates someone, but they can't both use the same ability; they can't NK, either.

What do you guys think? I really like factional gameplay.

[Wake1]

1) Both of the Mafia teams.

2) Hm, I hadn't thought of that. I'd give it a NK at the cost of either NK or investigation immunity.

3) Priority. Sort of like how chains would resolve in past Yu-Gi-Oh! play.

[Wake1]

I don't quite understand the first segment of your post...

The second part I don't quite see eye-to-eye on, either.

[Wake1]

...

I try tackling these original setups later. It's tiresome, lol.

[Wake1]

Then again, it's probably because I've been up for 56 hours straight doing intermittent back-to-back 16-hour in-home caregiving/CNA shifts.

[Wake1]

I don't quite understand the first segment of your post...

The second part I don't quite see eye-to-eye on, either.

For example, if three mafia are lynched and three townies are killed on the first three days, the last member could claim scum because he knows the other factions lose if they lynch him.

Hm... Still not sure I understand...

It's very unlikely for 3 of 4 Mafiasos to be lynched in the first 3 Days.

OH, I think I get it. Because the factions aren't told to kill the Mafia, and there aren't enough Townies to nab it, the Scum could safely claim.

Well then, let's fix that. We'll put it in each faction's wincon to kill Scum, and/or in each Scum's wincon to kill the SK, Town, and factions. Thanks for spotting that! That could have sucked if I missed that and hosted it.

[Wake1]

Would it be allowed to have neutral factions with specific win conditions in Normal/Open games?

Say, you've got a Mountainous game with 21 players. 2 Mafia Goons, 2 two-player Vanilla factions whose wincon is to see the other dead (they can't NK, and must become Survivor factions once one beats the other), and the rest Vanilla Townies.

Would that be OK? I don't want complex roles... Just an added layer or two to the discussions.

[Wake1]

Well, that stinks a bit.

Would the same hold true with four 2-player Scum factions, with enough PRs to balance it out? I have some specific ideas to do so.

[Wake1]

The problem is that "normal" is just majority opinion, and it changes all the time. Like clothing over the course of 100 years.

The page N linked mentioned that some of these restrictions don't apply in Open (and one other) Setup, and that it's still under construction.

If that is true, is it possible or even plausible that a big Vanilla Open game could have two Neutral factions in the future?

[Wake1]

"Normal" is based on the opinion of the majority or, in this case, a board. The board may or may not be affected by general consensus, but if so, it can indeed be changed over time.

Why is it so adverse? Even in a Vanilla game where the Neutral factions cannot kill... and everyone already knows they're there... all it serves is to add another dimension to Day-time discussion. Their wincon may also include killing Scum, too. Basically, two warring VT factions.

[Wake1]

Alright. Thanks, guys.

I do have a new idea for an Open 21-player game. Your thoughts on it would be awesome.

x1Town Cop
x1 Town Doc
x1 Town Jailkeeper
x1 Town Watcher
x10 VT
x1 Serial Killer (Investigation and NK immune)
x1 Mafia A Goon
x1Mafia A Roleblocker
x1Mafia A Jailkeeper
x1 Mafia B Goon
x1 Mafia B Roleblocker
x1 Mafia B Jailkeeper

I like it. Gives more time for both Scum teams to hunt the other, and the sole SK is a lone badass. Didn't put a Tracker in because, even though it's weak, it can be pretty strong at times. I like the thought of three Jailkeepers and 2 Roleblockers... it adds in more depth and increases game time. Also, Scum could accidentally protect Townies from NKs.

Whatcha think?

[Wake1]

Man, tough crowd.

I could try different PRs for Mafia. Does each Mafia faction have to have the exact same roles?

[Wake1]

What do you think of Mountainous Multiball with x21 players?

x17 VTs
x2 Mafia A Goons
x2 Mafia B Goons

[Wake1]

15-3-3 sounds exciting, actually. I'd play in that. Good idea there.

[Wake1]

It's tempting.

Is there a restriction on how complex/detailed a game cane be?

[Wake1]

Thanks guys. I enjoy hosting more than playing.

I'm thinking of a Supernatural-themed game with demons, angels, Leviathans, Winchesters, the works. That, and well-flavored items and scenarios.

[Wake1]

Good evening, everyone.

I've been modding a Fire and Ice Mafia variant offsite.

My goal is to create a large, Open game expanding on those dynamics. I can't mention the original Setup here because it's ongoing. Here's an unpolished pitch for the expanded idea:

Please don't dash my idea, guys. I'd really like to see this happen.





Town Cop
Town Doctor
Town Tracker
Town Watcher
Town 1-Shot PGO
VT (1-Shot Fireproof)
VT (1-Shot Iceproof)
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

*21 players
*If Fire and Ice target the same player, that player won't die. Really makes the two rival teams think.
*They'd BOTH have Daytalk. That's a must. Would 2 Masons be too overpowered?
*If Fire or Ice target their rival faction with a Night Kill, it doesn't happen. Instead, that Scum player will know the target is enemy Scum. Like a Cop investigation.


I need some help balancing this.

The Mafia Cops are a boon for Town assuming the real Town Cop keeps quiet. During the Night there's the chance they'll Cop an enemy Scum. Also if Scum hit enemy Scum, that'll be less Townies dying and more Scumhunting between Scum. I need some sort of role that'll make it so Scum have to feign Scumhunting, too. Scum has to feign hard at being innocent, too, when running enemy Scum up the gallows, or else Town will suspect you simply tried to NK your enemy last Night. The PGO I added on a whim, and am not sure if it helps in balancing. I was originally thinking just a Cop and Doc on Town's side, but I don't know if that'd tilt the game too much in Scum's favor.

I'm wanting to create a VT that's 1-Shot Iceproof and 1-Shot Fireproof. It wouldn't be too safe for Townies to claim that, because the rest of the Town could simply think they're Scum, because Scum can't be NK'd. I probably need more, subtle info-gathering roles.

[Wake1]

Oh, I forgot to mention the Cop was Macho.

Same with the 1-Shot Elemental BPVTs

Townies would know they're 1-Shot BP.

[Wake1]

I'll nix the Watcher, then.

If Cop goes I'll need 2 or so subtle roles.

[Wake1]

Town Macho Cop
Town Doctor
Town Tracker
Town 1-Shot PGO
Macho VT (1-Shot Fireproof)
Macho VT (1-Shot Iceproof)
Macho VT (1-Shot Fireproof; 1-Shot Iceproof)
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[Wake1]

Maybe one Town Roleblocker?

[Wake1]

I like this design because the ones pushing this wagon could very well be Scum, so that team would have to modify their behavior so it doesn't look like all three Ice Scum are on a Fire Scum's wagon. Especially if one of those three get flipped later. Town just might connect those dots.

[Wake1]

I see. Maybe I should post it this way, and then try fitting in Town PRs slowly until it's balanced enough.

Town Macho Cop
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[Wake1]

OR:

Town Fire Cop (1-Shot Fireproof)
Town Ice Cop (1-Shot Iceproof)
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

*Fire Cop can only get a 'Guilty' on Fire Scum. Ice Cop can only get a 'Guilty' on Ice Scum.
*For example if the Town Ice Cop investigates Town or Fire Scum, a result of 'Innocent' will be given.
*Just now added 1-Shot elemental BP to each Town Cop. This would give the Cops some survivability, and make it easier for Scum to lie and fakeclaim being a Town Cop.

[Wake1]

I'd have them 'Macho.'

I'll review his 7229 later.

[Wake1]

Guess a better question is what type of modification are you trying to put on Fire and Ice. If its just "make it bigger" that probably isn't needed.

That's a fair question, and I'll answer it as best as I can, Llama.

The answer to that question comes in at least three parts.

1) I want it to be large enough to accommodate two 3-player Scum teams.

2) The dynamic where Fire/Ice can't NK each other, and NKs turn into 'Guilties" is a must. Both Scum must have Daytalk. If they have Daytalk, I can shorten the Night phases.

3) A far more mental, thought-provoking game. By making it so that if both Scummers target the same target, causing them to cancel one another out, it gives the Town more time. I've witnessed this. It also makes both Scum teams really think, because if someone claims Doc they'll be paranoid about the other team targeting the same perp. Just as well, making it so that they casn't kill each other... instead turning those NKs on Scum into 'Guilties'... makes for a deliciously-complex game where Scum has to work really, really hard to appear Townish and innocent. The blocked NKs also gives Town more time to Scumhunt and notice stuff, too.

If I can balance this without needing to use a Cop, I would love that.

If I can make the game balanced, by sacrificing power in favor of more thinking and Scumhunting, that would be optimal.

What do you think of turning two Goons into Mafia Traitors? One fire, one ice.

[Wake1]

Does this look game-ready?

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[Wake1]

I'd play that face to face

I'd get too bored on the forum

Really? I figured if I made the player count smaller it'd up Scum's chances of winning.

You've got me thinking more on this...

Seems like the Mafia groups will figure each other out too quickly for that size of setup. Which I guess could be interesting in its own right? But I would expect town to win most games. I'd get rid of the Mafia Cops.

You, too.

I figured the current Setup was tilted towards Scum winning. Hm...

What... Hm. What do you reckon would happen if the current Setup was changed to this:

- x2 VTs
+ x2 Mafia Traitors (One

Ice

, One

Fire

)

I can just imagine the subtle, mental dynamics at play here. If Ice Scum NK-target Ice Traitor, they recruit instead. Same with Fire.

And... and then if Fire decides to to try to hit their Traitor instead of killing Town or suspected Ice, Town gets more people to sort through stuff, and now Ice has four targets to wind up attempting to NK, AND Cop.

Mm. MmHM. Interesting. Very subtle. I can just imagine both rival Traitors doing what they can to attract the attention of their teammates without getting caught. And if Town or Scum notice it, they'll jump on it, possibly bagging two or more Scum. I remember being a Mafia Traitor and getting modkilled 9Staff knows it was an accident, iirc), and so I flipped Scum, and I had gotten Varsoon's attention the Night before to recruit me, so after I flipped they scoured my ISO and found it, getting Varsoon lynched, too. I can see one or two instanxces of that happening in this game, which would be really neat.

Scum would definitely have Daytalk for really coordinated play versus both factions.

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Iced Mafia Traitor
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Traitor
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

And if that slightly puts it in Scum's favor, we can either leave it as is, or tech in a Macho Watcher or some other weak PR, too.

This looks pretty fun.

[Wake1]

Eh, is that too Scum-sided?

I really want to see two Scum teams going at it hard while doing what they can to stay latent, while not getting fingered as Scum. Town would have a unique challenge of figuring out if the Scumhunting is from a Town view, or if it's to kill the enemy Scum.

Maybe a Town Macho Vigilante is in order?

[Wake1]

How does this Setup look, guys?

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Iced Mafia Traitor
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Traitor
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[Wake1]

I am slightly confused. Some suggestions are that the Setup is Town-Sided, and others say it is Scum-sided. Of the Macho modifier is ridden it will be 'Follow the Tracker.'

May we start from here and work up, please?

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Goon
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Goon
Fire Mafia Goon

[Wake1]

my argument is too many VTs. it will become too boring for many imo

make it a C++ variation type thing would probally be a better idea if you want large numbers

I hear you, and that's one issue on the mind. C++ variation is confusing to me, and I'd rather keep it all as one set list..

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
Town Macho Ice Cop
Town Macho Fire Cop
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Roleblocker
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Roleblocker
Fire Mafia Goon

The Roleblockers would help take care of any claiming early on.

Do you know if we're allowed to use unique/original PRs in Open games?

[Wake1]

Interesting. Thanks for taking it a step further.

Thank you!

I like the thought of the dual roleblockers, because it really nails down any claiming nonsense. That, and those RB possibilities make it interesting. They wouldn't be able to RB each other either. That'd be kind cool if

Fire Mafia

RB'd

Ice Mafia

who tried to NK or Cop another member of

Fire Mafia

. Hm... Tactical...

Do you think I should leave it as is, or try to tech in some weaker PRs to make it more interesting?

What if instead of a Town Doctor were used, two elemental Docs were used instead? And/or add in elemental 1-Shot PGOs, too?

I'd like to make the game as duality-based as possible. Elemental counterparts.

[Wake1]

Hm...

...hm.

Crud.

I'll nix the two Cops for now.

Thank you, ika and everyone. You've been really helpful in grinding this down and polishing it up.

[Wake1]

Town Macho Tracker
Town Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT
VT

Ice Mafia Cop
Ice Mafia Roleblocker
Ice Mafia Goon

Fire Mafia Cop
Fire Mafia Roleblocker
Fire Mafia Goon

- x2 VTs
+ x2 Macho Elemental 1-Shot BP VTs? (One 1-Shot Iceproof, one 1-Shot Fireproof) (Macho fixes Doc protection)

[Wake1]

I don't understand what your goal is with the setup Wake, why not just play fire and ice.

Because that is different than the very dynamic and interesting game I am currently modding offsite.

These ideas are far different than one another.

[Wake1]

What ideas do you want implemented in this setup in particular

Mainly I want it like a Large Fire and Ice where the NKs on each other turn into Cop guilties. Instead of 12:2:2, try 15:3:3.

That's pretty much it. I'd like to keep it at 21 while having it balanced and not boring. Multiple, randomized Neighborhoods and Scum teams with Daytalk, too. I created a game like this with 16 players offsite, and that game has been epic with over 4,000 posts, and a combined 2,000+ posts in Neighborhood QT discussion, strategy, and interest.

[Wake1]

I totally want into this game when you make it. The offsite one is a blast.

Absolutely.

Two problems, though. The Open Queue takes around two years for a game to enter Signups, which is odd since I'm here attempting to get this Setup passed. I'm also unsure if the Setup has to be passed here in order for it to enter the Queue or not. If so I'll just go for a Large Theme along these lines. Or another Large Normal once my current one has resolved.

The Queue for regular and Large Normals goes by pretty quickly, and I could just as easily run this idea there, or in Large Themes.

[Wake1]

I agree with Call.

My experience modding a game with Neighborhoods has been an excellent blast. It really augments the gameplay and adds another tactical layer to it. The Neighborhoods could be utilized differently by the players. Some can be as strong as Masons if not more. Others are bustling and sharing secrets because they trust one another, but that's an unwise move because there's a Scum hidden in their midst. Neighborhoods are like HUBs for more private discussion, and can be used in order to facility more strategy and higher-quality posts. Some of the QT Neighborhoods in my games are upwards of 900 posts. They are catalysts. They generate activity. I am hoping I can influence this forum to accept and use them more often in gameplay. The Neighborhoods add a refined, subtle layer to gameplay, and I love it.

[Wake1]

Hey, House. It's happening here, too.

[Wake1]

Mafiascum needs a 'Like' function.

[Wake1]

Mainly I want it like a Large Fire and Ice where the NKs on each other turn into Cop guilties.

That's essentially what it was historically (NKs failed on opposite factions) but that was way too scumsided, so that part was removed. Then it was still too scumsided so another VT was added to the game.

Maybe you want to check out this as a jumping off point.

One of the problems is that I'm also being told it's Townsided, which is why I'm told to continue removing Town PRs.

My aim is to have it a Large Open/Normal Fire and Ice where Scum have Daytalk and NKs on opposing Scum become Cop guilties.

That's where the magic of interesting game discussion is made. In a 15:3:3 setup like this, it's pretty tough for Scum to stay hidden.

The current build I have needs to be better balanced. If I put in a Macho COp I'm going to include Scum Cops and Roleblockers. The Scum Cops will only further hinder enemy Scum, and the RBs dissuade any Town PR claims.

[Wake1]

Could 'Rebels in the Palace' be considered Normal? (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... the_Palace)

I have an idea for a slight deviation on it, and would like to try it in the Normal queue.

[Wake1]

I see.

The Variant I'd like to try.

If I can try that, can we go Nightless? If not I'll include Nights... but I'm not sure there's a limit on how long they must be. If not I'll make them 5 minutes long.

[Wake1]

I'm not seeing any mention at all about not having Nights in a Normal game.

Setup

Closed Normal Games should satisfy the following rules:
The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). A second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group. There should be no more than two mafia/werewolf factions, and no more than one Serial Killer.
The game must contain at least one Vanilla Townie (allowed names include: Townie, Vanilla Townie, Innocent Townsperson, Citizen). A sample Role PM for the Vanilla Townie must be included in the rules post.
Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
Returning "No Result" to Trackers who do not see their target go anywhere (in favor of "Your target did not visit anyone").
Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).
Hydra accounts.

Also, nothing in that page says you can't use a Day Cop role. I think it'd be Normal if you had an X-Shot Cop that can use its ability during the Day.

Not sure about duplicates. Searched through and found no mention of that, either.

[Wake1]

I understand a bit better now. Thank you Jason,