[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay so its time to remove Fight or Flight (broken) from open list.

Calling all seven players ABCDEFG, the following plan gives town about an 80% win rate playing randomly

-Day One-
A is lynched
-Night One-
B shoots C
C shoots D
D shoots B
EFG do nothing
-Day Two (If Nec)-
No Lynch
-Night Two-
E shoots F
F shoots E
Only G is alive

Following this plan town loses if

G is scum (14%)
E and F are scum together (5%)

In a situation where one of E/F are scum and G is town it becomes a scorched earth draw or town win as endgame would be Scum (vig shot left) vs Town (Vig and Commute left).

Even if its modified to any 1v1 is auto scum win, scum only increase win odds by 7% randomly playing.

For the BCD pool... if one is scum (B)
B is forced to commute or die, D dies by C, B is caught as not following plan and lynched leaving to EFG endgame with possible swap of one letter for another

If two of BCD are scum (BC)
-Two scum are confirmed if scum doesnt shoot other scum.
-Assume BD die
-CEFG alive
-Lynch C
-No action
-See EFG endgame

Broken game is broken.

Something seems wrong... I'm assuming you can't do both actions in one night. Thus, if one scum commutes to avoid a death, then he's not shooting anyone.

In the EFG endgame, if one of EF is scum, he commutes and it is unknown to G which one commuted. This is essentially the same as doing a normal 3p LyLo.

If one of BCD is scum, (B) he has to commute or die. If it is B, and B commutes, then C stays alive, as well as B, right, leading to a CEFG endgame.
If two of BCD are scum, (BC), then B commutes, leaving both B and C alive. B is confirmed scum, but that leaves a CEFG endgame.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

That said... maybe a different smaller setup like

1x Doctor or Cop
1x Nurse or Deputy
5x Vanilla Town

vs

1x Gunsmith (positive on Cop/Deputy) or Pharmicist (positive on Doc/Nurse)
1x Goon

Just a rip on old F9

1x Mafia Gunsmith
1x Mafia Pharmacist

Can't kill and investigate in one night?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

That said... maybe a different smaller setup like

1x Doctor or Cop
1x Nurse or Deputy
5x Vanilla Town

vs

1x Gunsmith (positive on Cop/Deputy) or Pharmicist (positive on Doc/Nurse)
1x Goon

Just a rip on old F9

1x Mafia Gunsmith
1x Mafia Pharmacist

Can't kill and investigate in one night?

Do you mean the same player can't kill AND investigate or that the mafia faction can only kill or investigate?

If the latter, probably not worth ever investigating...

The former. Sorry for not being clear on that.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

The two mafia between them get one kill.

Thus, they get between them one investigation.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Give the hunters one shot between them, that they only get after the other guy is lynched?

I think that makes it a lot easier to lynch a hunter, really.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Um, can scum vote on the 1 shot ability?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

If both nominated players are scum: scumteam's choice of 4:2 with no confirmed players, or 3:3 with one confirmed scum;
If the town was right only about the scummiest: scumteam's choice of 3:2 with one confirmed town, or 4:2 with no confirmed players;
If the town was right only about the second-scummiest: 3:3 with no confirmed players;
If the town was wrong about both players: instant scum win

I think if town is right only about the scummiest scum just shoot the player nominated to shoot?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Getting three crosses in a row seems really hard, because you also have to lynch a scum if scum defend against it.

Also, I think it very possible scumhunting goes out the window later on. Hmm, town need to lynch one scum day 1 or 2, or they're basically screwed. And even so, they need to lynch the other scum day 3 probably, or just take a forced lynch on somebody who the mafia can probably choose.

Hmm, you have all the weird interactions of scum not wanting to lynch somebody who would lead to their lynch later on.

Interesting, but probably very scumsided.

Pedit: Cheery, what? You can't force a win. Whenever I try to win I always have to coax the other person into giving me the win by not forcing it.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Saulres, town can go the opposite corner day2 - it forces scum to then pick a side, not one of the other corners, as otherwise town win on three crosses. At least so long as it isn't still 2 scum.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

as long as scum have hit a scum earlier then it doesn't matter that the scum can win (via tic-tac-toe) next turn as long as town hit the final scum this turn.

Thus, the 3p LyLo is basically normal LyLo.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

3 Vanilla townies
1 Jk
1 Cop

2 Ascetic Mafia Goons

Ascetic has priority over jailkeeping.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well, night kill analysis definitely will not happen there.

And arcangel, yes, but it's ridiculously overpowered for town if everyone had a different power role.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Uhhhh. That seems broken because whoever gets swapped claims they got swapped?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I remember reading one secondary draft that if people selected the exact same stuff they got bumped RIGHT to the bottom.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hey, what are all these PRs going to base their actions off?

What if the game ends night 1 before the first day?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Do scum have a kill?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I was thinking for the original two chances that scum just claimed JK and you have 2 prs but not much else.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Leads to some weird shenanigans with fakeclaims when the town leader's claim conflicts with the cop/vig's claim.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Too many unique roles breaks the game, and vts are the simplest way to fill in the gap.

Setups like diffusion of power and such don't need all vts.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Not really mafia, is all I can say. You have an informed minority versus another informed minority.

How do townies win?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Um, for EoME, what format do results get given in? Scumfaction/NotScumfaction or Town/NotTown?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

20/4/4/1?

Bastard masons?

It's broken by massclaim. Sure everyone has this cool power but massclaim breaks it so hard. Unless you run it 25 and give the scum knowledge of which roles aren't in there.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

It's semi-open, and really I don't get the appeal.

Docs and Blocks looks cool, but mafia could get screwed if they make it to end-game and they for instance, kill all the docs and they're the only claimed doc.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well, you have night 1. I'd say it'll be 3 of the 4 strongest townies.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Not a setup, but an idea for a mechanic I've been kicking around:

Every day, townies can select whether to learn a new skill or not. If they decide to learn, they get a 1-shot power (cop, doc, RB, JK, ...) for the night.

Scum gets as many NKs as the number of townies that are learning, but can only use them on the townies that are learning. So if three townies decide to learn a new skill, scum can name three players, and if any of those three players are actually learning, they die. Also, kills resolve before any other actions, i.e. kills come with an RB.

About this, make cop require a full night to learn, so you can only use it the following night?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Nah, way I think he's thinking is if that possibility happens then game is screwed.

But yeah, why would the cop and vig claim before a lynch?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

The seraph knights are compulsory, they do need to unless i'm misunderstanding something.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

umm, you're making several assumptions.

1) You hit the strongman. if this doesn't happen town is kinda screwed, so I don't think people would go this path.
2) the knights are able to co-ordinate their protects. Even if they are, i doubt one of them protects a vt.
3) Scum doesn't counterclaim. If this strategy is so breaking, why would scum not counterclaim?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

How do you ignore associative things?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Um, can I point out that the commuter still has the bulletproof problem?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I think part of a newbie is to teach the newbies how claiming works on this site.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well, you can't do that with mountaineous.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Roleblocker/Jailkeeper really shouldn't be happening in this setup, because how do you resolve cross-blocks?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I was thinking of this mechanic. Everyone can choose their own PR, but taking a PR gives someone else a negative role modifier that counters the role you picked. Eg, cop paired with miller, macho with doctor, ninja with tracker.

The alternative was that every pr only works on vts.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Problems I think with it are that with enough possible roles there's no reason to go vanilla, and a 10 pr town is pretty much gonna win unless they all get the exact same thing. Espeically if they massclaim negative utilities day 1.

The other is that the counter-role makes some roles useless - a cop doesn't really do much when you have 3 of them and every guilty is a 50/50 chance. And tracker in this is weird.

Possible solutions - make the negative modifiers hidden (Meh on this)
Have multiple negative roles per positive role, so 1 cop = 2 millers (bit overkill probably)
A vanilla remains full vanilla.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

You'd want to direct the cops publicly to avoid weird stuff when one person has town and the other mafia.

Rather swingy pregame. Double mafia reciever is hugely different from double town reciever.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

For N's setup, have mafia choose 5 people of whom a random 3 non-werewolves are cleared, and werewolves also pick 5 people of whom a random 3 non-werewolves are cleared.

If either side picks one of their own then that person is guaranteed to be chosen.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hangon, hiders die if they target a hider that gets stomped on right? So if you do that enormous circle everyone dies right?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

In theory?

Even if the two scum get paired with each other, if they kill and everyone reports recieving a fruit, then you KNOW the two scum are next to each other in the circle.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I've an idea

It involved mutliple treestump lynchers.
1 of these is on mafia.

Edit: Okay, so to put this better.

Normal setup (possibly just some mountaineous) +
2x treestump lyncher on town.
1x treestump lyncher on mafia.
Each lyncher has to be the first to lynch their particular target to win.

Where my thoughts went after seeing the guy who suggested spectators to a game.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

That sounds hilarious. And also somewhat silly. It looks like scum can win n1 if one of the people they have for scum is lynched. Oh god. It seems simple if town can peg everyone who scumpicked a particular player as town.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Wait, what happens if 2 games arrive at a win for a faction at the same time, one belonging to a town-mod and one to a scum-mod?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Think of each player as a mod running the same open setup with the same player list, which includes themselves.

The exception is, instead of randomizing the roles, they assign them to the players of their choice.

Each player's goal is to end the game by coming to an end-game resolution created by someone in their faction.

What's the incentive to scumhunt / lynch? Players are both scum and town simultaneously? What?

It looks like you have to lynch the scummembers chosen by a town-mod. The mod-game is the one that really matters, beyond that it doesn't.

Night-kill trivializes setup. Scum should win on Night 2 unless both scum are dead before then by making themselves Town in their own distributions and NKing their distribution's scum.

You choose your setup before you know that you're scum, or even who your scumpartner is, so that could maybe alleviate this problem a bit.

But the game seems like it can be unwinnable for town if everyone but one scum picks player A as scum and that scum picks any pair at all.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hmm, the simultaneous victory seems like an enormous problem with the setup.

Possibly, make it so that for a certain setup to win, the mod has to be alive.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Can't you shoot the cop innocent night 2?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay, more issues with we need a fifth.

Hypothetically, if one town becomes obvious everyone else wants themselves to be lynched.

If BOTH town become obvious town, then you get no lynch because there's no way scum would lynch anyone because then they lose.
Possibly make it so that no lynch is 2 votes, and if no-lynch occurs then both town must kill someone and they must both target scum to win (if they target the same scum it becomes a 2v1 endgame).

Math on this is 5/9 that town is shot and lose, 1/9 that both scum die, and 1/3 that one town dies. The idea is if it happens immediately you just shoot the guys on the no-lynch.

Also, cult we need a fifth.

3 town
1 cult martyr

If town is lynched, martyr does nothing.
If the martyr is lynched, another person is inspired by his sacrifice and becomes cult (martyrs choice).

Oh, wait, that's a 33% chance of town win... ummm. W/E. Somebody else come up with stuff. And I didn't do any numbers on the first one. Uh, yeah.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Both? You've misread, it's 4 pairs with 8 players, not 2 pairs with 4 players

The third wheel seems kinda pointless though.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

It seems like hostage negotiation could potentially be won by scum night 1 even if they get lynched day 1. That's kinda swingy.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

About the tax collector one.

Give everyone an amount of taxes they pay.
Make the mafia the highest/lowest.

Tax collector only sees the order of the people they take. EG: of ABC, A pays the most taxes, C pays the least taxes.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I think less pressure might be similar? 2 ICS, 3 VTs, 3 scum, scum only have a kill when they're lynched, whiteflag.

There's enough different about your setup though.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

It depends on how much power the neighbourhood gives. 7/2 mountaineous is fairly scumsided, right?

So if you get two/three town players who get a good read on each other d1 they get neighbourhoods with each other and they basically publicly state "don't join our neighbourhood." Anyone who does gets lynched, and you've got pseudo masons for a day.

Wait, does the NKed person's wish get granted? Say A targets B, B targets D, C targets A and D targets B, and A is Nked. How do the neighbourhoods resolve?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Everything? So add an E targets A to that example, and C and E end up alone? Little weird, but okay.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

They're trees, and they leave a stump behind with chopped down (ie lynched) but not when burnt down.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Does a bodyguard get failure or die, or is it default?

Is a neighbourizer default?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Saulres, it looks to be that default is a success/failure if visited on target, not on self-visit.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Scum wincon is if nothing can prevent winning? So ambiguity in the wincon prevents them winning?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Uh.

That actually looks broken.

Both vigs shoot scummy looking people N1 and you either have 4 conf town D2 or dead scum at night.

How many vig shots are there on the prison guards?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

STart it cop headstart?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

What about lynch bp goon investigate bp ww?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Yuck.

Werewolf Mafia looks dumb.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Thats intensely swingy even before the game starts

11:2 with two cops, two semi-doctors and two nightkills is a silly setup.
Alternatively, 9:2:2 with no town power and two scum doctors.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

It CAN be 2:11 in the case where mafia = werewolves.

It CAN turn into 9:2:2 with no town power.

It can be stupid as hell if there's one mafia werewolf - they have to win by themselves?

Pedit: Multiball generally needs you to kill the other team anyway. There's nothing unique about that.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Like, it's basically a swingy multiball setup except in the weird edge cases where the scum factions blend, which are just insane.

Also it has no protection from follow the cop.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

2/169 isn't 0. You have to consider the possiblity of that happening.

Also, the odds of one mafia werewolf? Uh, lessee. 2/13 + 11/13 *2/12 = 24/156 + 22/156 = 46/156 = 23/78? So about a bit more than a quarter chance?

Also, a werewolf will be helping townies do what? Kill mafia? Hangon, won't the mafia be civilians?

Like, that aspect doesn't really exist.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Wait, king claiming in 3/3/1 is VERY werid. If he claims the minister, then it goes to 3/2/1 and with a claimed king this does gets silly... Uh. King wins if he lynches the minister he doesn't know. Civilians win if they lynch the minister the king does know. If a civilian is lynched we have 2/2/1 which again is dopy - king needs to lynch the minister he doesn't know to win. Well then.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay then.

So the king still wants to lynch ministers even if the chance of killing all of them is next-to-impossible so he doesn't have to go 1v4 if they win.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Uhhh. Hangon. It's not entirely clear who gets punished more when ministers die/leave.

Basically, isn't optimal strategy for the civilians to just lynch 3 civilians then go into a 4v1 with the king?

Maybe king gets to kill a civilian when a minister is lynched.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

How about.

1 scum
1 merlin
2 town

If merlin is lynched town loses. If town is lynched d1 it goes to d2. If scum is lynched either day they must guess who merlin is to win.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

5 scenarios.

I think someone suggested something VERY similar to that and it got shot down pretty fast. Not really mafia.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay, after the knee-jerk reaction of "first day here, proposing a setup, it probably sucks" that actually looks interesting.

With that many town I'd actually try to kill the goon first tbh.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I'd have everyone claim a potential two suspects, then hunt for the mafia goon.

D1 lynch of either suspect doesn't end the game, yes? So there's no issues at all basically hunting through everyone.

And wait... does the judge know WHO is being nightkilled? If yes, thats brokenly overpowered and probably shouldn't be in the game. If not, why the hell is there a nightkill in the first place?

Edit: Why is there actually a night phase at all? Judge can, and probably should, stop everything from happening. I imagine players would be really pissed off if the executioner blew it for town by killing the innocent.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

The one thing I forgot to mention is that moderators absolutely cannot announce what power the person lynched had.

Oh god a no reveal setup.

OH GOD.

And you give mafia a dayvig? What exactly does this solve? If you ignore the suspects the dayvig won't have a clue who to shoot. If judge claims immediately it doesnt really matter what the dayvig does, he won't change the outcome much.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay, I'm back in the knee-jerk reaction territory. A lot of things in the setup don't make sense.

Why is there a night-phase? The judge just poops on everything, and he really shouldn't die. I guess punishing town for lynching him makes sense so they don't get guarantees on who... nah, all the shenanigans where goon claims to be judge are silly.
In relation to the above, what exactly does the executioner do in this setup? His kill should never go through. I suppose he's a named townie, but, is a named townie a good thing to have?
How is town supposed to distinguish between suspects? This is basically the main reason I've suggested to look for the goon. The smart goon then would just give himself up. You can't solve this by making goon lynch to win because then both town prs claim and both suspects claim and you lynch out of everyone else before you lose on numbers.
Why do the suspects take two lynches to kill? Inherently the setup can end on d1 if town tries to go after the suspects immediately. Forcing the town to lynch the same person twice doesn't actually make sense from a fun perspective, and it just gives them an out if they try to ignore the suspects but accidentally lynch one instead.

Mafia having a dayvig doesn't do anything to solve most of the problems above, and just makes some stuff worse.

Pedit: Okay. These are quite different, and quite swingy, and probably fairly scumsided. Mafia only having to eliminate one target ABSOLUTELY offsets the power of a rolecop. Tbh, having 2 scum offsets the power of a rolecop.

I also don't understand why the guilty suspect insta-loses? This setup doesn't have a good reason, as far as I can see, for it to deviate from being full reveal.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Does the SK really make things worse for mafia?

How do you think it would work if the weak doctor was compulsive while both mafia are alive?