[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Ineffective]

Tempo

2x Un-named mafia role? (can kill or commute . Two-shot commute limit per mafia)

1x Vigilante (2 shot commute)
1x Dayvig
5x hider

Hiders targeting dayvig, or targeting mafia or vig while they have chosen to commute will not result in death.

[Ineffective]

Imo since mafia/vig did not target hider b hider a lives

[Ineffective]

Hmmmmmmmmm...........

Trying to break it already i like that.

Massclaiming and making a hider circle could easily result in 3 hiders dying and one mafia being outed if mafia arranged to leave hider on maf untouched and kill a hider being targeted

Assuming hider dies n1 and town nl d1 by n3 the count would be 1 hider 1 maf 2 prs that can shoot. Autowin.

If mafia instead chose to commute the whole excersize would have the effect of taking away a commute only, but the procsss could be repeated in that case.
If mafia chose to kill a pr...

Ok ya gj u broke it.

This can be fixxed by letting one mafia kill and one commute and making the commute limit per mafia member

[Ineffective]

The targeted hider wouldnt die but the hider targeting him would

[Ineffective]

So a and b make a pact mafia targets a b dies.

Or as wifom mafia makes a pact with a hider commutes

[Ineffective]

Only way the game can end n1 is mechanical stupidity via hiding n1.

Also town actions.. Or even all actions could be disabled n1.

Rough idea tinkering with modifiers. Looking to make a mechanical wifom based setup

[Ineffective]

First attempt making a setup.

Mafia Tracker
Mafia Goon
Mafia 1-shot Vanilarizer
Town Roleblocker
Town Cop
Town Bodyguard
Vanilla Townie x4

Any comments?

Would be balanced with game related pms allowed imo

Cop can pm inno to take private claims or roleblocker can claim and claims can be sent to him to prevent. cop being vanillad n2

Bg claim can be instucted to be on the claim taker or on the cop in pm

Not broken... plent of counterplay for either side in almost any situation

[Ineffective]

For the record, commonly agreed balance here is 10:3, town:mafia

My number one complaint about the setup is it doesn't do anything particularly interesting and would probably work better as a closed with 3 more VTs.

My two cents.

Even when there are as many known prs as mafia? 10:3? Is this because of the voting system?

[Ineffective]

1 cult recruiter

1 diviner (knows cult recruiter and all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult.

Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win

)

1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla




Cult not only have to shield their leader, but in a twist of gameplay, they actually have to scumhunt the oposition, the deviner

Game related pms allowed regardless of current alignment. Said pms may be referenced in game (eg. Unclaimed cleric gets a pm from cult attempting to co-opt him --- cleric cannot be culted and outs the pm) .

if cult recruiter is lynched: cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching. in night actions martyrs self kill comes first, so if he is culted. On the same night he dies as town

[Ineffective]

Educate me im so noob idonteven

[Ineffective]

But ya anything that facilitates private conversations is fine ofc

[Ineffective]

Looking up qt rn

@faraday yes. Diviner knows cult recruiter, cult has to scumhunt deviner based on knowledge tells

[Ineffective]

Hosted this in a small forum once it turned out p cool

[Ineffective]

Daystart would be best to prevent the setup breaker of culted diviner n1

[Ineffective]

Also, thank you.

Im in love/ hate with cult and wanted roles to interact with them to make games more fun.

[Ineffective]

o_0 i love crazy setups but this sounds..... crazy

[Ineffective]

1 cult recruiter
1 diviner (knows all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult. Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win)
1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla

Game related pms allowed. if cult recruiter is lynched cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching

forgot to mention that if martyr self kills same night as culted, the humane thing to do would be kill him as town.

[Ineffective]

I guess it is to determine who the other half of the team is.

The idea of two mafia halves searching each other is interesting, but i'm not sure that replacing the NK by cop shots is the best way to do it.

Also it looks pretty harsh for the town. 4 allied scum with 2NK vs 9 townies? Even with the possibility of a misshot, this looks impossible. Heck, if the day1 lynch and NK are not on mafia, all mafioso can claim and win.

ya scum would need to be opposed for that to work

[Ineffective]

what if a hider hides behind a hider that targets scum

Imo since mafia/vig did not target hider b hider a lives

was the actual in line conversation to that question. the post you quoted was in response to if hider a and b are on each other and mafia targets one.

[Ineffective]

oh cheery covered that lol

[Ineffective]

1 cult recruiter
1 diviner (knows all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult. Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win)
1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla

Game related pms allowed. if cult recruiter is lynched cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching. in night actions martyrs self kill comes first, so if he is culted same night he dies as town

btw this is unnamed, looking for a theme-like name along the lines of the role names.

[Ineffective]

I'm toying with an idea, but I'd like feedback on it before I move forward to balancing it. Essentially, while I like multiball, it's far too swingy. This is my aim at creating something that feels a little like multiball, without being as crazy due to crosskills.

2 scumteams of 2, both teams win/lose together. Both have a factional kill. The twist? Both also have a factional cop, and may also choose each night to not kill in return for being able to cop twice. The factional kills will kill a mafia member.

As far as other roles, I definitely want to see a Town Tailor. Maybe Town faction-specific cops as well, although I love the idea of Town Tailor + Scum copping and not much else.

Ok how about a big game? Maybe 20 players. Too small of a game and optimal play leads to zero chance of mafia miskilling

Perhaps a fown framer would help as well?

[Ineffective]

@tehbrawlguy

with 20 players, consider that after a n1 nk and 2 investigations each then a mislynch and 2 kills n2, the odds are overwhelming that the game rests at 17 players

on more mislynch one more night kill and mafia have a moderate chance of being well educated on posible allies and havea voting block of 4 out of a total of 13 players.

lynching correctly at this point or anything past this is still a likely mafia win... so town essentially has 2 mislynches to gain the advantage before scum can handily dominate with little effort. one more mislynch and one more night kill lands it at near mafia autowin.

seemed like a good balance to me considering you prefer the idea of mafia being more informed with reports than town.

[Ineffective]

mafia crosskilling should never happen. ever. optimal first action will always be to use 2 investigations, then kill the rest of the game. if you get two innoes first night and lynch outside of them you will always have a buffer of 2 confirmed innos to kill the next night as you get another investigation. if you catch a mafia/ framed your buffer goes down, and if you ever run out of a buffer you can use a second round of double investigations i assume?

[Ineffective]

one mechanic you can add to prevent autoloss when town still outnumbers is to disable nightkills at that point. mafia would still have a decent chance of securing a win with the block. in that case you could have less people

[Ineffective]

Wait thats the lobl variant that got comped. Didnt know you made that.

Kudos for making pr claiming suboptimal d1 with the loudmouth as a possible pr

[Ineffective]

Also i disagree that having a LM setup makes it too scumsided. Since scum doesnt know if there is a lm a hook or a kill can set it off and confirm mafia

[Ineffective]

Yes.

Also if it is roleblocked.

[Ineffective]

That setup was designed for EM, was selected for compitition, and plays well there imo... If you think that is a bastard setup, the setup i made that was selectedfr comp this round is worse lmfao

1 mafia goon
1 mafia role cop
3 loudmouths
3 sleepwalkers

Roles are not revealed upon death

Sleepwalkers appear to self as VT like the loudmouth does, so no townspersons know their role At the beginning of the game.

Sleepwalkers have a mandatory random visit on any player that is alive'

So there you have it, petas setup is standard

[Ineffective]

Idgi.... Usually neighbors arnt alignment specific?

Are the sk and mafia garunteed to be in a neighborhood together with nobody else?

[Ineffective]

So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.

X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2

With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo

[Ineffective]

1 cult recruiter

1 diviner (knows cult recruiter and all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult.

Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win

)

1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla




Cult not only have to shield their leader, but in a twist of gameplay, they actually have to scumhunt the oposition, the deviner

Game related pms allowed regardless of current alignment. Said pms may be referenced in game (eg. Unclaimed cleric gets a pm from cult attempting to co-opt him --- cleric cannot be culted and outs the pm) .

if cult recruiter is lynched: cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching. in night actions martyrs self kill comes first, so if he is culted. On the same night he dies as town

I wanna play this... Only time its been played i was the game mod ;-;

callllling all adventurous mods!!!

[Ineffective]

So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.

X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2

With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo

SK kills mafia N1. Best move, so mafia is forced to basically play lyncher to SK D1. Only way to counter this is a mass "If I am mafia X is SK" massclaim D1, that fails long run too.

Also if SK or mafia are going to get lynched whats to stop them from just giving up the other player?

Not sure i understand why killing a jointable player would be optimal. I was assuming a joint being accessable with my analysis... Otherwise you are correct - neighboring scum is counterproductive. as for the jointable "Team mates" not outting each other when being lynched.... Its called sportsmanship - if i was a mod and saw anyone outting another faction when they are in autoloss for the sake of doing it with no possible benifit to themselves i wouldnt allow them to join future games.

[Ineffective]

1 cult recruiter

1 diviner (knows cult recruiter and all cult members as soon as they are culted. Counts toward cult:town ratio as cult.

Wins in place of cult if not culted/lynchedbefore cult win

)

1 cleric (if targeting the same person as cult recruiter, target dies as town. Cannot be culted.)
1 martyr (can kill himself day or night to reveal the role of another player)
7 town vanilla




Cult not only have to shield their leader, but in a twist of gameplay, they actually have to scumhunt the oposition, the deviner

Game related pms allowed regardless of current alignment. Said pms may be referenced in game (eg. Unclaimed cleric gets a pm from cult attempting to co-opt him --- cleric cannot be culted and outs the pm) .

if cult recruiter is lynched: cult may no longer recruit, but remain alive to try to win by lynching. in night actions martyrs self kill comes first, so if he is culted. On the same night he dies as town

I wanna play this... Only time its been played i was the game mod ;-;

callllling all adventurous mods!!!

Issue with setup

D1 - Cleric claims
D1 - Martyr targets random non-cleric (1/9 hits cult leader)
D1 - Lynch (1/8 hits cult leader)
N1 - Cleric continually targets D1 Martyr target - two confirmed town always alive

So im not sure how this works well when almost 25% of the time town wins D1 without even scumhunting. Problem is town is going to be hard pressed to win any other situation as if cult leader makes it more to D3 town essentially cant win, even if they hit recruiter there its more or less a 3v6 nightless.

It may be a "fun" game but its not fundamentally sound or balanced at all.

I would never use that strat and i doubt anyone with half a brain would either. Martyr is infinantly more valueble late game and cleric claiming prevents cult from the chance of a miscult/outting themselves to the wrong person. It also prevents any possibility of being a step ahead of the cult mentality to prevent cult conversions due to cult knowing the person who can "save" a towny and how he thinks, and the inverse not being the case. Your strat is a day one all in gambit and nothing more.. You are also not factoring in cults opposition, which will lead cult to not culting late game if they havnt culted or lynched it yet.

[Ineffective]

So you have a compulsive nk and an optional nk and im assuming you are allowing a joint win for last 2.

X amount should be 9 or 10 imo. Assuming mislynches are blown sequentially 9 would give 2 ml and town can earn more by lynching a scum d1 or 2

With 10 vts same deal except town and scum can play with the lynch tempo

SK kills mafia N1. Best move, so mafia is forced to basically play lyncher to SK D1. Only way to counter this is a mass "If I am mafia X is SK" massclaim D1, that fails long run too.

Also if SK or mafia are going to get lynched whats to stop them from just giving up the other player?

Not sure i understand why killing a jointable player would be optimal. I was assuming a joint being accessable with my analysis... Otherwise you are correct - neighboring scum is counterproductive. as for the jointable "Team mates" not outting each other when being lynched.... Its called sportsmanship - if i was a mod and saw anyone outting another faction when they are in autoloss for the sake of doing it with no possible benifit to themselves i wouldnt allow them to join future games.

Its basically this:

Mafia cannot win (and will lose) if the SK doesn't get lynched D1. To stop this from happening, there needs to be a "if I am scum X is partner" claim to stop the SK from killing mafia upon them being lynched next.

If you are going to say 10 town... you can probably assume no more than 8 players get claimed as a partner here, and mafia cant lie or they get NKed the first night. So you are going to have quite a few clear off the bat.

Also if your faction is in a force loss situation... why not help town as scum? You aren't going to be playing against your win condition at that point or anything. At times you are in a spot that you cant win but you do have sway over the way the rest of the game goes. That shouldn't ever come into play though because of chaining which to every faction (except SK) is optimal for D1.

Game is broken badly.

you just responded to my post with a reworded version of your origional post with no mention as to anything i said or response to it... If mafia can nk and killer can joint there will always be a way for mafia to win... If not i have already acknowledged your point

[Ineffective]

By nk in that last post i meant. No-kill not night-kill. Offsite terminology 8/

[Ineffective]

You make some reasonable points... I rather disagree with the late game assesment tho. The one game that was played was won late game by town. Having a perma-clear and gaining a mislynch every time you lynch scum post-recruit helps town alot. also in said game, martyr had a feeling he would be culted and went his seperate way at night - he was right... Preventing a cult and revealing a vanilla--- who the cult assumed would be protected by cleric and did not target which resulted in another miscult as cleric was on the alternate target.. There are many levels of psychology and wifom to take into effect.

Majiffy is looking into balance - might could use more VT's

[Ineffective]

An unkillable confirmed townie just strikes me as something you really shouldn't have in a game. Making him convertible would solve the issue.

With no investigative roles and no mafia to counteract cult, i really dont see it as a problem... It was actually my solution to the first draft being too cultsided and not wanting to create a mechanic dependant setup. The only real issue is that towns sucess late game almost entirely depends on the martyr being competent

[Ineffective]

An unkillable confirmed townie just strikes me as something you really shouldn't have in a game. Making him convertible would solve the issue.

With no investigative roles and no mafia to counteract cult, i really dont see it as a problem... It was actually my solution to the first draft being too cultsided and not wanting to create a mechanic dependant setup. The only real issue is that towns sucess late game almost entirely depends on the martyr being competent

Its still cult-sided with your change, if town doesn't lynch CL by second day they will probably not win.

If you want to force game more to town try and limit the amount of power the CL has somehow. That can be done by either limiting their recruits for the entire game or something like that.

Also if the anti-cult-third party thing can get recruited they have another gamebreak at lylo. Basically lets say you are at CL+recurit+3rdParty+5 town alive.

Any town gets put at L-1 the 3P hammers with claim of 3P, they get recruited and win condition achieved. Which in your game makes that basically a D3 lylo. Where only way town can win is with four of five correct lynches in a row.

There is a reason (apart from most players here hating cults to start) that they are rare; they are amazingly difficult to balance - probably about on par with running a 3 scum faction game.

Ok so - what if culting the third party resulted in nothing? Then that blatent joint win isnt available, and if cult tries to recruit him they know who they NEED to lynch to win...

[Ineffective]

That with the addition of more VTs should reduce swing.

[Ineffective]

Well that assesment was slightly off - but mostly true

In that scenario cult would cult the deviner and it would still be 3v4 but town would have the mandate of lynching the leader to win at that point so its still a likely win

[Ineffective]

Soooo...

In summary for suggested fix.

Deviner canot be culted, making his lynch a neccesity for a cult win

9 vts instead of 7

anything else that might help?

anything but a tracker/watcher

Maybe a 1 shot vig?

[Ineffective]

Ya the issue with the cultable diviner we were discussing was that diviner could break late-game safegaurds by hammering an l-1 towny and claiming deviner to be culted as a joint-win scenario instead of forcing cult to find him on thier own. Llama pointing that out made me reconsider his cultability.

If cleric can be culted - he really cant clear anyone by staying on the same target because he could easily say he was on a cult if he were culted early game.

I like the idea of having 2 martryrs in case one is culted --good setup-breaker fix.

The other thing about ceric being cultable is that i feel like there should be some sort of security padding in a mafia-free cultgame.

also

from your assesment comparing cleric to a vig i think you may misunderstand the role.... It is only intended to be able to kill a towny who would have been converted the same night otherwise --- more like a conversion blocker (shrink in EMterms idk what the equiv is here) with the added bonus of the person protected from a conversion dying so as to let town know that the cleric did his job... This can end up clearing a revealed player if cleric cannot be converted--- but CANNOT kill an already culted player

[Ineffective]

Haha ok i misread the martyr part of that obviously...

You bring up good points for the limited shot recruit. I would favor that over even/odd to allow for variance in strategy...

But with limited shot there are some things to consider such as - if shot is blocked with a night time martyr death or the cleric, does the shot count?

as far as cleric making clears - i meant already revealed players who could have otherwise been culted later on - if htey stay on that target and the target doesnt die an alive clear is made into permenance.

[Ineffective]

and by "padding" i mean that --- in late game scenarios with a possible incoming conversion and what-not it can be useful to be able to have an actual clear. Everything outside of the cleric role is unceartain and wobbly and i viewed it as the stability of the setup... Perhaps limited shot cult takes care of that wobble.

[Ineffective]

Ya i like the 3 shot idea alot actually...

Only thing to consider now is above mentioned scenario of a blocked shot. cultable cleric is fine with limited shot.

[Ineffective]

.ya a blocked shot should probaly count...

The setup is becoming slightly more mechanical with this change but it is acceptable to avoid major swing.

cleric will probably stay on a revealed blue. and cult will probably avoid it because of limited shots. cult will have the option of culting early game for a better shot of it landing or later for a better shot of converts surviving to end game

[Ineffective]

Excuse my previous hesitance to your brilliant rebalance --- its like a musician that just got told his masterpiece concept needed alot of work before it could be released

[Ineffective]

Do semi-opens count?

greatest idea mafia

Exactly like greater idea except with nightstart because daystart with tons of prs makes no sense to me

[Ineffective]

Hey, what are all these PRs going to base their actions off?

What if the game ends night 1 before the first day?

Random night actions dont bother me in setups that are intentionally imbalanced and random... Also you have meta to go off of as an investigative pr... If you kniw there is a player you can read you avoid them... If there is a player that you feel threatened by thier towntelling abilities you can target them. Also some people ask the inverse question in setups with unknown roles. "what do you base you lynch off of without night actions"

As far as a n1 end... I dont think its likely but there can be safequards against that

[Ineffective]

For forum mafia in general nightstart doesnt play well--- i think in the case of a semi-open bursting at the seams with prs it seems apropriate--- also - you can post discards before night phase, so thats another layer of something to base night actions on

[Ineffective]

<<<<<<<<<<<<------- punny

[Ineffective]

I really like this concept in general... Plzcing the roles in the right spots on the grid to keep it from being too swingy will be difficult... But worthwhile imo

[Ineffective]

a friend from EM came up with an awesome idea for a dethy variant that i helped balance out--- the stats ended up slightly scumsided (within the margin of error for such a sample size) after 30 games

Daystart with the usual 4 cops and the following additions

Mafia role cop in place of mafia goon
2 traitors
Dayvig
virgin (prevents mafia from killing for one night if lynched)

Standard strat played out that virgin is lynched d1 to insure all cops get an investigation, i tried encouraging alt strats but people played it this way in fear of dayvig or virgin dying n1 and ruining towns tempo

Everyone decides on one person for everyone to investigate, virgin outs fosses before being lyncched (in the case of forum mafia, the fosses would start a popcorn investigation outting d2)

Dayvig can fake a report to save shot for d3 as a gambit or simply shoot in the majority report (4 innos on the same person for instance) then lead a lynch