[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Whiskers]

Traitor Doc
Mafia Goon

Serial Killer /

Serial Miller (50/50)

Vigilante
Doctor

Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

Daystart.

Mafia and RedDoc don't know each other,
50% chance of Serial Killer, otherwise a Miller who

flips

Serial Killer, but gets a Vanilla Townie role PM

Is this too swingy?

[Whiskers]

Really?
I thought about it and the SK has a much higher chance of winning than usual.

But yeah, I can see how this could be hard.

What about a normal Mafia Doctor?

[Whiskers]

They all get day chat? The Mafia and Werewolves, I mean.

[Whiskers]

Seer: "Well if you're going to lynch me, two of the Werewolves are ____ and ____. I'm not going to tell you the other person I investigated because they were Town."
Werewolf team:

The werewolf team might be able to pull something out of their asses...? "Oh, it's wifom! omgus! he's just saying that! those are his mafia partners! those are townies! he just wants you to lose!

Yeah.


Somepony care to make a cop-headstart game for me?
Or a game where the masons have a factional night-ability?

[Whiskers]

Or only that the seer had 66% accuracy.

HHel, how about a mafia lynch D1 and a Werewolf D2?

Not to mention that two town-lynches is not unlikely by any stretch of the imagination.

[Whiskers]

What about Neighborizers instead of Masons?

[Whiskers]

Why does it matter if the Innocent Foal is "confirmed" (??) by PM or thread? The result is the same-- all players know the Innocent Foal is town.

No, I mean

instead

of. Why?
If masons are too strong, then an X-shot Neighborizer is like an innocent child (which is weak, imo), but only to certain players.

Innocent child gets killed Night 1. Almost necessarily, unless you've got a clear shot to a dangerous townie or an obvious powerrole. How about instead of that, Oneshot, Twoshot, Threeshot Neighborizers?

Just a suggestion.

[Whiskers]

Ah, k. Then it should be MM, since "by PM" is

MUCH

stronger than the "by Thread".

[Whiskers]

Which is why it isn't good Newbie-fodder. Newbie games are really the only games that need to be perfectly balanced.

Quilford, the Jailkeeper can be used as a cop.
How about a 1-shot Bulletproof Bodyguard?
Where, he protects once and doesn't die, and then protects the next time, and dies?

[Whiskers]

Well, I was gonna quote you, before you editted...

Vote: Izakthegoomba

.

"Note that those setups were taken down when unbalanced." They use the most balanced setup, afaict.
I think we should list out all the roles we think should be in this game, in order from weakest to strongest.

I think we can all agree that Bodyguard would be at the bottom and Masons would be at the top?

[Whiskers]

Like the mad scientist, props to PrimeIntellect. Can he choose to compare a living player with a dead player?

[Whiskers]

Yeah, it should be fine in this setup.

The point was, the can-target-dead-people variant is essentially a cop. When one scum dies, the MS can just target that dead scum, and one other player.

Actually, you'd want to target a town player and another player, because if you target dead scum and you target the fool, You'll get a guilty on the fool, and lynch him.

[Whiskers]

That's fine... but you explicitly said (somewhere?) that when you investigate Fool, it turns results as "same." I took this to mean that fool and X meant "same" result no matter what.

[Whiskers]

That's fine, the gimp of it really is only if the MS can target dead players, which he can't.

Besides, even a fool who is "guilty" has to get lynched on the correct Day, so has to play his cards (and his luck!) right.
Also, the MS might not out for a (seemingly) town lynch. If he gets a scum/fool = different investigation, and the scum dies, then the fool looks town, right? I wouldn't out for that. There are Eight Vanilla Townies, so I'd treat it as a personal clear and move on, and if he's mislynched, then he's mislynched, so be it.

[Whiskers]

EDITTING!? ON MAFIASCUM.NET!? IN A FORUM!?

Vote: Junpei.

@Mod: please kill this sucker.

[Whiskers]

Hrm. I see what you're saying.

Could make Fool nightkill bulletproof. Or remove the Third Party cop.

TBH I was worried about fool/lyncher being too overpowered, but I may have overdone it.

I originally considered not giving Mafia a nightkill, but I felt it would make them too underpowered.

Maybe make it so that the Vengeful shot can not kill town. If you target town, the shot does not go through. This would reduce the deaths.

Edit: Yes, lyncher shot is strictly for Idiotic Cop.

Maybe I should give lyncher/fool factional daytalk?

Lyncher/Fool Nightchat would be a great thing.

take out the Vengefuls. Make that another setup.

Mafia/Fool Co./Town.
2/2/5
Goon + Goon
Fool + Lyncher
Vanilla + Vanilla + Vanilla + Vanilla + Jailkeeper

Yep.

[Whiskers]

Remember each team has nighttalk!

As long as the FoolCo. has nighttalk, I'll second it.

[Whiskers]

What does the Investigation-Immune Serial Killer report as to the cop and gunsmith? Since there's not roleblocker, if you get "No Report," or just njo report, then you know you hit the SK.

[Whiskers]

So... cops are mostly useless? They can only detect two of three scum, and might catch two fake townies. They can't clear anypony until SK and their Godfather are lynched...
Then again, it's about 16 players, so idk.

[Whiskers]

Jun, yours is the one with the Odd/Even, right?

Fleshing out my fool setup again; felt that vigilante is out of place as one of my goals in making odd/even was to give town a more natural method of getting around the fool and killing it. Also wanted to clean up the setup a bit.

8 vt
1 doc
1 mad scientist (compares alignment of two players; same/different, no two players twice in game; shamelessly stolen from PrimeIntellect. Fools appear as SAME, night role)
1 neighborizer (1 per day, 1 per night)
1 mafia roleblocker
1 nilla mafia
1 odd day fool (wants to be lynched on an odd day)
1 even day fool (wants to be lynched on an even day)

Open setup
Day start
Fools win on lynch of respective day

VT count subject to change in the future.

It seems like there's too much going on-- but I can't figure out how Large Games are supposed to work. It looks kind of like something from Epicmafia, but here's what I'd suggest for both you and BBmolla-- but this is assuming you're making Small Open Games.

Considering what Hoopla said about a Fool game being very different from a Mafia game, why don't we remove the mafia?
6 Vanilla Townies
Mad Scientist
Odd-Fool/Odd-SK/Neighbor
Even-Fool/Even-SK/ Neighbor

Daystart, compulsive lynch, compulsive kill, game ends when town eliminates threats or both jesters win. Fools always return as "Different" no matter who they are compared with.
Yes? Discuss.

[Whiskers]

I haven't decided yet. ._______.

Spoiler: post

A neighbor is like a mason, except you don't know the alignment. The difference is that if it's open, and listed

what

roles are neighbors, then yeah, you know. It's just a technicality to let them talk to each other.

If Hoopla does that, then you can whip out the counter, "Then what happens when you introduce Werewolves into the game? Then it's semi-informed minority vs semi-informed minority vs uninformed majority!"

Also, the mad scientist doesn't work there...

8 Vanilla Townies
1 Mad Scientist
2 Mafia Goons
2 Non-Consecutive-Day Fool Neighbors?

[Whiskers]

Yes. I mean, they win independently, but why shouldn't they work together?

[Whiskers]

Well, act like a lyncher for each other.
Or something.
That way they know who the other is, and I'd hope the fool gameplay could, with a little information, go beyond, "TROLOLOLOLOL, LYNCH ME LYNCH ME!"
Which is what we're all worried about, right?

[Whiskers]

And yet, people are afraid of fool setups.

@Junpei: Yeah, I"m not satisfied with my edits of your setup either.

[Whiskers]

What about Mafia Fools that win if one of them is lynched on the correct day?

That way, the game becomes, "Lynch Townies every day" And it becomes an exercise in looking like a townie.

[Whiskers]

Okay, sure enough. The game ends with a fizzle.

But how often does that happen?

[Whiskers]

Actually, no, in the case of Two mafia vs 1 townie, the mafia votes for the correct fool (depending on the day). Then night,kills the townie, and the last mafia votes for himself, lynches himself, game over.

Basically, 2 Maf vs 1 Town, Endgame, town wins.

[Whiskers]

2 maf 1 town

maf lynches correct maf
maf Night kills town
maf lynches correct maf

gg mafia wins

How does town win?

You're right.

I guess the only way to do it is to lynch the MaFools on the incorrect days.

Meh. Make it a MafiaMime team with an even/odd stipulation, add in a load more townies. That way, both Mafia have to be lynched on their correct day to win, and there's plenty of room for a mislynch?

[Whiskers]

K. To each their own. I think Paris looks cool.

[Whiskers]

The fool is no longer overpowered, and the town has a way to detect it.

The mafia has a way to counteract the town detection, what do the fools get?

[Whiskers]

But the fools can be detected by the Mad Scientist (giving the town a way to detect both factions that oppose them). If a fool is detected, then he'll never be lynched. If a fool is cleared somehow (detected "incorrectly), then he'll never be lynched. It's a race of, "how fast can I get myself lynched" vs "How fast can I find the fools"

[Whiskers]

Your thing has a roleblocker, right?

What if fools are detected as "no result," as though the MS had been roleblocked?

The whole CC thing is really bad though, because that means 50/50, assuming you "lynch between cop claims." (which happens only in LyLo, from my experience)

Here's what really happens:
Lynch some townies.
MSci gets a "different" report, then one of them is eventually lynched.
The MSci outs that the other one is mafia, and the correct day fool CCs.
The second player from the "different" report is lynched (yay, we caught a mafia!)
One MSci claim is Nightkilled. Either A, the real MSci is killed, revealing the other as the fool, or B, the fool is killed, eliminating him from the win pool.

Is there a Gun-giver/Vig-maker setup yet?

[Whiskers]

If the fool wins, the Mafia doesn't.
If the MSci stays alive, there is a chance of outting the Mafia.

[Whiskers]

@Junpei: With the Mafia Roleblocker, the MSci doesn't know if he's been blocked or if he has a fool. Also, since he can't get a report on the same player again, the fool and one other player are blocked from getting a investigated.

@BBMolla: See, I was thinking the other way around--

Spoiler:

1 Goon
1 Vig-maker (Gives a one-shot Dayvig ability to one Townie each day. Compulsive.)

5 Vanilla townies.

A Dayvig does not have to use his ability, but expires once a lynch is reached.
The Dayvig is not revealed upon shooting.
Daykill does not end the Day.

Needs some tweaks, since this basically becomes a game of, "Whose Dayvig claim do we believe?" and the real one is confirmed town and the fake one is confirmed mafia.
Here's an adjusted version:

Spoiler:

1 Mafia Vig-maker
1 Fool
3 Vanilla Townies.

Makes it a two-Day mini-game.

Mafia gives Gun to townies. Must shoot, must Lynch.

Closer?

[Whiskers]

"So then, every time there's a different alignment, there is 1 guilty for sure in the two. So I guess it makes it more useful perhaps?"
Isn't that what it was before?

You could leave the TownDoc in (I don't see the point, personally, but why not? Gives fools something to claim.)
I might suggest making the Vanilla Goon a Backup Mafia Role-Blocker (because after the Roleblocker is lynched, all results of "No Result" are at least 1 fool), but The game might be able to handle it without.

[Whiskers]

Oh, see, I was thinking that the Neighborizer was the role that gets confirmed to a player of choice each night. Like, her night action is, "Confirm me as town to Junpei" and the Mod sends Junpei a Pm that says, "Whiskers is confirmed town."

One that recruits Neighbors for nighttalk seems overpowered and out of place... It doesn't confirm their role, it doesn't really help, it just gives a bunch of random players nighttalk.

[Whiskers]

Okay, here's what I feel is going on:

Jun, you're trying to do too many things at once. There is too much going on in your setup for me (I'm also afraid of Large games).

Quil, Izak, whomever else, you're trying to turn it into 2of4--+Fool. Not enough going on in the game. The whole point of the setup is; Using the MSci, and; Having an even/odd day fool.

However, I

might

suggest limiting to one fool. Give him the choice of even/odd at gamestart.

[Whiskers]

Even to each other. I don't see what the point of having two fools is though.

[Whiskers]

Each player gets to pick from any category, right?
Like, if they all pick Protective, then all those roles show up on one side or the other.

What if they all pick Protective except one, and that one picks investigative? Does he roll on the investigative list?

Can you (technically) have all doctors?

[Whiskers]

2x Mafia Goons
1x 1-Shot Town Vig
1x 1-Shot Town Twilight "Loverizer"
3x Vanilla Townies

D1: Lynch Vanilla.
T1: Loverize Vanilla and Vanilla.
N1: Vig Lover, Suicide Lover. Mafia-kill Loverizer
Day 2: 1-Shot Vig / 2 Mafia Goons.

Make it

bEEEEgger.

Any game that begins in lylo is game I don't really want to play.

My strategy as Loverizer would be to Not Loverize on the first Twilight, thereby increasing my chances of hitting Mafia-- or, if We lynched Mafia on Day 1, to not Loverize at all.

[Whiskers]

Ew, why? If you want a small game, play Magic Train. *SHRUG*

[Whiskers]

Only if it gets okay'd for balance and stuff.

[Whiskers]

Ah, I thought that was just good sense.

alternatively, you could run a Mini Normal and that'll solve your 1st-time-mod problems.

[Whiskers]

I wouldn't know, as I never got to experience the previous implementation. From the changes I'm aware of though, it sounds much more... organized.

[Whiskers]

The Mini Normal queue actually waits for the mod to take initiative to post his setup. Somepony who signs up and never posts his ruleset and setup for review will never get his game posts, a player who does it on his first day of /intomod will, I expect, have about a three-months' wait.
But I haven't sent mine in yet, so I'm just approximating about that wait.

[Whiskers]

Unforgivably Small Open

1 Mafia Goon
1 Double-Voting Townie
_______


Actually, this makes me think of another, more reasonable 3p.

1 Mafia Goon (50% Lover)
1 Vanilla Townie (50% chance hidden Lover)
1 Vanilla Townie

Goon knows if Lover, and knows who is lover with. Townies don't know if Lovers or not.
If Townie Lover is lynched, Town wins.

I know this is still just 1 vs 2, but what do you think?

[Whiskers]

Unforgivably Small Open 1 Mafia Goon 1 Double-Voting Townie

Now you're just trolling me <_<

Whiskers Excellent Mafia:

1 Fool


Or,

Whiskers Sad Fool Mafia:

1 Voteless Fool


BAH, I want to run Sad Fool now...

[Whiskers]

That is hardly a joke setup.

[Whiskers]

...


...I'll concede that.

[Whiskers]

He likes Themed Kill-roles, if I understand correctly.

[Whiskers]

Vigmaker setup;
9 Townies
3 Goons

Votes do not lynch. At deadline, the greatest plurality (and the most recent one, in case of a tie), gives a vig-kill to a player t be used that night.

Goons also have a factional Nightkill ability, and Nighttalk. A Goon can not make two kills, although one can make one kill and another can make a second, if a goon gets the vigshot.

Nevermind, this is just kingmaker at night. nuts.

[Whiskers]

2 Goons
1 Mafia Winmaker
8 Townies

Mustlynch, Daystart, Mustwin(kill)

Each night, the Winmaker chooses one Townie, who exits the game with a win.
If Winmaker runs out of players to make win (Townies), then Mafia loses.

If Winmaker is lynched, it becomes normal Mafia.


This is a little confusing to explain. Can you ask me some questions so I can clarify? Number of Townies is arbitrary.

[Whiskers]

^ i dont get that.

its impossible for the winmaker to win like that, since running out of townies means mafia has majority?
unless 1 1 1 setup

Winmaker has to be lynched for Scum to win. Mafia doesn't win on majority if Winmaker is alive.

I guess the hard part is town winning in Low-player game after the Winmaker dies. (See final result)

Winmaker(LYNCH!) = goon+goon+Townie means-- well, it means only that townie loses. So I guess that's okay.

Town still wants to find Goons, they still want to find Fool and NOT lynch him. I guess this is a way to make that Fool setup, kind of.

Spoiler:

Day 1 - VT #1 lynched
Night 1 - VT #2 Exits with win.
Day 2 - VT #3 lynched.
Night 2 - VT #4 Wins.
Day 3: Goon/Goon/Foon, 4 VTs.
Day 3 - Goon #1 lynched.
Night 3 - VT #5 Wins
Day 4 - VT # 6 lynched.
Night 4 - VT # 7 Wins.
Day 5: Goon/Foon, 1 VT.

How about this: Must Lynch, Must Win.

No Self-voting.

If lynch Townie, Game over, Scum loses.
If lynch Goon, Nightwin VT, Scum loses.
If lynch Foon, Nightkill VT, Scum wins. (Along with VTs #2, #4, #5, and #7.)

[Whiskers]

If Foon is lynched, Game becomes Normal Mafia (ie, nightkill, Mafia wins on majority, etc.)

[Whiskers]

Protip: Scum gets chat D1 so long as neither has a vote out. Once one player has a vote out, scumchat goes away.

[Whiskers]

Not that it would ever happen, but couldn't you

totally

have a Lynch on Day 1 and no treeflips? With Nine Players, it takes Five to lynch. Bandwagon Five votes on a player, get a flip, Nightkill, go to Day 2 with Seven players (Four to lynch). Bandwagon 4 votes on a player, Lynch, Nightkill, Day 3 with Five players, Three to lynch.

Get your treestump flips, Three players, two to lynch. Unless you've missed scum every time with lynches and Stumping, you take your townies and lynch the last scum.

If you DID miss scum, they lynch the townie, so...

But isn't that a technicallity?



ALSO, if no goon-chat, how do they decide who gets killed, and who makes the kill?

[Whiskers]

So... how do you lynch then?

[Whiskers]

Lol. Stop, just stop. I've tried making EM setups in a way that they would work here, it just almost never happens.

You know that Sane/Insane/Naive/Paranoid Cop + Goon setup that was in ranked though? That's Dethy, and I think it's from here.

^Some culture for you.

[Whiskers]

Again, EpicMafia setups are unbalanced and do not work on MafiaScum.
Please stop trying to directly import EM setups to MS.

[Whiskers]

Since it's an open setup, it's

more

balanced-- but he's right. Unless you lynch the RB D1, and the Miller is Nightkilled N1--

the cop is useless. The newbie setup has

probably

a cop-- about 50% of the time. It also has One roleblocker. No Godfather.

In 2of4, there are 1 or 2 town PRs, and 1 scum PR-- the roleblocker counters everything, so it is always considered effective.
The cop is always useful, the doc is always useful, the Jailkeeper is always useful -- unless targetted by the RB.

But look. Your setup has three conditions under which the cop is not usefull.
The cop is not useful if:
He gets a guilty and the miller is still alive.
He gets an innocent and the Godfather is still alive.
He is targetted by the Roleblocker.

The doctor is useful unless targetted by the RB.

So basically, you've neutralized the cop (into being nothing more than a VT with a name), and then you gave the mafia

an extra PR!

2 town PRs vs 1 Scum PR was balanced, but your setup has become 2 town PRs vs

2 Scum PRs!

And that's only technically! In all reality,

unless

you lynch a scum (pr) day 1 and the Miller is killed at night, the setup is really just

1 Town PR, versus 2 Scum PRs!!!

Oh yeah, and the Newbie setup has

Nine

players-- that's Seven townies and two scum.

Your

setup has

Eight

players, being

Six

townies and two scum.

No, it's NOT balanced.

[Whiskers]

Then why put the cop in there at all?
What is the cop for, besides "finding scum"?

[Whiskers]

I think now is a good time to suggest a setup;

1 No-Voting Fool

Fool wins if lynched.

I'd really like to see this one in play, though.

[Whiskers]

Okay, okay-- Fool is faster to say, and I haven't played in a game with a Jester yet (although have played in several with a Fool-- ffffff yeah, these games were too slow so I went and joined EM. kill me).

[Whiskers]

Now, I hate large games, and this is really more of Theme game fodder, but how about this:

1 King (Beloved Princess (If Nightkilled, Skip the next Dayphase))
1 One-shot Vigilante (Queen)
1 Doctor (Bishop)
1 Cop (Knight)
1 One-shot Bulletproof (Rook)
6 Pawns (Vanilla)

1 Mafia Bishop (Doctors a player, but also negates the doctor protection on a double-doc'd player)
1 Mafia Knight (Rolecop)
1 Mafia Rook (One-shot Bulletproof)
2 Mafia Pawns. (Goons)

[Whiskers]

I know, sorry. That was mean and I shouldn't have posted it.

[Whiskers]

...so the Newbie games need to be made smaller? In my Perfect Scum Win Newbie Game, we lynched one, two, and I think three townies to get endgame.
Look. Trevor. EpicMafia works on a different level than MafiaScum does. If your setup has a breaking strategy, or near-breaking strategy (Whisper claims to Vig), it's not going to be played here -- not as an open. What works on EM due to impulsiveness of the players doesn't on MS, where you literally have three weeks to think about something. Take the Ten Minutes that an EM Day takes, and stretch it to Three Weeks.

How many games have you played/read here, Trevor?

[Whiskers]

Watcher is weak compared to cop.
While the Cop tells you for sure the alignment of a player,
And the Doc potentially provides the town with an "extra life" of sorts,
The Watcher tells you if a player is [Vanilla/Used their power] or Not.

It's just not as important.
The 2of4 Newbie Setup uses a Jailkeeper and a Mafia Roleblocker. It also adds Two Vanilla Townies to your setup.

i'm done for a while. I really can't argue with any sense, I'm not a master in balance either. But I can compare to the other, balance-reviewed and balance-tested setups, and say that your setup favors scum in most scenarios.

(btw, why a seven-player setup at all? I know on EM, the smaller the setup, the faster it will fill. Why is that good on MS?)

[Whiskers]

The outcome of 2of4 depends on the prs the town has and how well they are concealed.

Wait, wait, I thought the point was to scumhunt! Remember?

Also, your 2/3 power roles is just the same as 2of4 power roles-- it gives mafia a chance to counterclaim/non-existent claim.

The JK can block a Nightkill, but who cares? So can a Doctor. So that doesn't make the JK "Extremely powerful."
The cop catching a scum before lylo "fucks scum" in any setup-- right?

The watcher can watch PRs or Mafia, but who cares? Unless it comes down to massclaiming-- which most games don't afaik-- and the watched player with an action claims VT, or unless all the other Town PRs die, the watcher can just discern between vanilla and non vanilla roles, and who cares?

In one of the scenarios above, (The player claims VT, but was watched with an action) (The other Town PRs are dead), in the first one, a town PR might claim to be a VT for some reason. In the second, it's just a cop, so who cares?

[Whiskers]

My bad. Also, yes, the Jailer is powerful, but not really for the reason he said.

What does predicting who is going to be killed have to do with watcher being a powerful PR? How is watcher-- sorry, I was confusing it with Tracker. My bad.

[Whiskers]

2 cop claims, 1 doc claim, 1 watcher claim.

You have one mislynch to decide who is scum.

Go.

[Whiskers]

What

is

the optimal play then, and why does EM always massclaim...?

Also, let's say you lynch the scumcop. Cop has inno on dead Doc. Whom do you lynch?

[Whiskers]

Ahaha, I just fucked myself. Nevermind- use the mislynch on the Watcher, then lynch the other scumcop.

So really, optimal play is to clain one Townie (thus poisoning that well), and claim one PR.

[Whiskers]

D1: Towny is getting lynched, claims pr. Other pr shuts up and town lynches someone else. Scum doesn't know the other pr so it would be risky shooting the claimed pr. Other pr can claim if they feel the claimed pr is scum.

Why would it be risky for the Mafia to shoot the claimed PR?
If the "other" pr feels the claimed PR is scum, then wouldn't it take

two

PRs to lynch?
Now, watch this: Doctor about to be lynched. Cop claims, says he doesn't believe the Doc is real. Goon claims Watcher. Lynch Doc. Oh no, the scum is outted! Nightkill Cop and lynch goon, Lylo.

D1: Scum is getting lynched, claims a pr. He either gets cced or the real prs claim. Lynch between prs, good odds.

Why is this different from the Townie claims PR version? Why does the "real prs claim"?
But you're missing the point. Here is a setup that is based all around who claims what when.

[preedit]
I got beaten to it.
-____-

[Whiskers]

I wish there was some way to testrun setups like this. Actually, maybe I'll organize something.

[preedit]
Trevor, if you really want to import EM stuff to here, Try making a setup in which one of the more esoteric roles has a place-- like the Creepy Girl.

Although, I guess that wouldn't be allowed in Open...

[Whiskers]

Theme suggestion:

"EpicMafia.com players are invading MafiaScum.net! You've managed to crush most of the trolls with your banhammer, but a few sneaky sneaky players have managed to stay hidden under their consistent EM-and-MS playstyle!"

You could run it as a Hurt/Heal, with modnames as the townies and players like DK as the scum.

[Whiskers]

I'll get on it. would you be playing in it, or could I ask you to helpmod? (I'm not literate enough with the goodmods or badplayers from this site)

looking into Hurt/Heal now.

[Whiskers]

I nominate Junpei for that position.

[Whiskers]

I nominate... uh... um...
I don't know any 1-year-old players who give a damn about anything.

[Whiskers]

In that case, I nominate Jun. He's serious enough to be frumpy if had to be, seems to know balance kind of, and I haven't seen him \have a problem with consistency (being online a lot, and such).

[Whiskers]

But I am just good at making it look like I know what I'm doing; regardless of if I do or not. That's a trait that has caught me a lot of breaks in real life.

Ha-ha! I know

that

feel, bro!

[Whiskers]

Realquick: what results do the trackers get if their target is roleblocked?
Does the Bodyguard die if his target is targetted?
Seems townsided, (comparing to 2of4,) with three PRs, all of them different.

[Whiskers]

That could work.

I also realized that Massclaim doesn't really work here, so there's that.

Also, I realized that This setup has three Town PRs that are

weaker

than the two (or one) town PRs of 2of4, and the one scum PR in this setup is stronger (Well... perhaps) than the one scum PR 2of4. Balances, I guess.

[Whiskers]

...What's

not how trackers & roleblockers work?
He hasn't specified their powers OTHER than calling them "tracker" and "roleblocker," respectively.

[Whiskers]

Well... "No result" is the same thing-- I guess in the case of a tracker, you get a "no action was performed," which actually makes the roleblocker way more effective.

[Whiskers]

Run it, chessy.

[Whiskers]

Make it

nightless.

Not sure why a Night 2 and Night 3 shot. Instead, make it nightless, the Gunmaker makes two players 1-shot vigs, with the condition that no two players can shoot during the same Day (meaning that both vigs, or one vig and one mafia, can't shoot during the same day).
Fastest Town Loss:
Shot 1 VT
Lynch 1 VT
Shot 2 VT
Lynch 2 VT
Mafia 3 gunsmoth

Fastest scum loss:
Shot 1 Mafia
Lynch 1 Mafia.


Biggest problem with this (and Cobblerfone's) is that the Gunsmith claims and has two players to back him up-- then he's a confirmed townie. Does mafia use their shot on one of the vigs, or on the confirmed town Gunsmith? Or on a VIP?

[Whiskers]

With the amount of wierdness in opens recently... maybe making Elmo's old Popcorn Mafia an open might be something to look at. For those who havent been around long enough to remember it was

8x Vanilla
4x Goon

Nightless, No Lynching

Pregame scum votes to give townie a gun. They have X time to shoot. If shooter hits scum they shoot again. If shooter hits townie, the townie becomes new shooter. Timeout results in suicide and scum vote on new gunholder.

Basically classic nightless with a twist, but with site meta so different from original run im not sure how most would deal with just sitting around.

Uh-- there seems like no penalty to everybody just shooting the next person on the list.

A,

B, C, D,

E, F.

A shoots B. B is the new shooter. B shoots C. C now has the gun. C immediately shoots D. Now D gets a shot. D turns around and shoots E. Hey, E was mafia! D gets another chance, so shoots F.

Do town ever die from being shot, or do they just "become the new shooter"?

[Whiskers]

Also, is there a setup where town (or at least, some townies) can vote at night to influence the nightkill?

[Whiskers]

Just throwing the idea out there for refinement:

Spoiler:

4 VT
2 mafia
2 nightvoting townies
8p in all.

there are two sets of four neighbours. One nightvoting townie is in each neighbourhood. Mafia are sent to neighbourhoods at random (both in one NH, or one in each). VTs fill the remaining slots.
So, possible outcomes are:
1: (NV, M, vt, vt) / (NV, M, vt, vt)
2: (NV, M, M, vt) / (NV, vt, vt, vt)

No roles are revealed by the mod.
Nightvoting townies can vote to change the lynch.

This version doesn't quite work. There's no way to let town

sometimes

overpower the mafia without

always

letting them overpower the mafia.

What if there is a Doc/Vig combo: Both players choose targets. If the Doc blocks correctly, the mafia's NK is redirected to the Vig's target. If either of them dies, the other is just a named townie.
2/7, and it ensures a nightkill is made each night (that the mafia chooses to make one).

Is this too weak/too similar to other setups?

[Whiskers]

Rather than randomize the numbers of each role, could we randomize which PRs and Bad Cow PRs there are? twenty players is a lot. What if you knocked to down to 14p, with six VTs and roll four town PRs (with chance for repetition=the number you listed above). Give Bad Cows 1 Vanilla Bad Cow and roll 3/4 of the scum PRs. Actually-- the Assassin Cow is equivalent to the scum factional kill, right? Make two Assassin Cows-- only one can kill each night-- and roll two scum PRs. It'd look like this:

6 Normal Cows
4 of [Sacrificial Cow, Sacrificial Cow, Barking Cow, Economist Cow, Thief Cow, Banker Cow,
Proud Cow, Barter Cow, and God Cow]
2 Assassin Cows
2 of [Diseased Cow, Maniacal Cow, and Super Mean Cow Aldous Dilbert Humberdale]

Still looks like a Theme Game, though. Anyway, this sets up for fakeclaims, when Bad Cows learn what PRs town has. The problem I'm having is that you're using Cow to mean both a player and a currency. For more swingyness, you could change it to be Cow=Player and Vote=Commodity, or to keep it the same, cow=Player and Milk=Commodity, but that doesn't make sense for killing. Maybe you could "spoil" the milk? Or change the whole flavour to cats and each of them has X "lives"

[Whiskers]

Or change the whole flavour to cats and each of them has X "lives"

Silly pony, you're mooing the whole point.

YES BUT CATS ARE BETTER THAN ANY FISH OR MAMMAL.

[Whiskers]

Spoiler:

are you nuts im a horse

[Whiskers]

I don't get how this is supposed to work. What lynches/kills happen, and who can vote on whom?

A similar idea (letting townies control NKs) was in an Execution Mafia, where the night executioner was selected in a secret vote by town and scum, with town getting one vote each and scum getting two votes each.

The problem with this, that I'm trying to avoid (by the needlessly-complicated Neighbourhoods) is that during the day, they just say, "Okay, we all will elect this guy as Executioner." And they all agree to do that.
Even if you make it 2 scum, 2 town can vote, they just hypo-elect.

town getting one vote each and scum getting two votes each.

...huh. Yeah, that might work.
Still, that's electing a Vig each night. I want a secret-count Nightlynch (instead of a nightkill).

May be able to do it by adding a couple of Lynchers... Two Mafia, Two Lynchers (targets rolled randomly, leaves game after win), Seven VTs. Everybody gets one vote in the day, one vote at night.
Mafia would both vote for their choice of nightkill. Lynchers would each vote for their respective target. Town would vote for scumreads.

This still doesn't keep them from deciding who to Nightkill during the Day.
2 Scum, 1 Lyncher, Seven VTs, and the scum & lyncher have two votes apiece? that works for the first day; after the D1 Lynch, it's 6VT votes : 6 non-town votes.

After that, scum and Lyncher have a whole lot more power: Night 2 is (presumably) 4 non-town votes : 4 mafia votes : 2 lyncher votes.
N3- 2VT : 4M : 2L. (4 players.)
Actually, that looks alright. The worse town does at catching scum, the more control they gain over their NK-- the more it becomes normal Mafia.
The last (imo) kink is that once the lyncher leaves the game there's an unusual number of players. Simplest fix to me is make it a Night-Lyncher, "Beloved Princess"-type. If his target is lynched during the day, He does Not win. If his target is lynched at Night, he wins, exits the game, and Day-Phase is skipped.

That looks like this:
D1: 7VT/2M/1L. VT lynched.
N1: 6VT/4M/2L. VT night-lynched.
D2: 5VT/2M/1L. VT lynched.
N2: 4VT/4M/2L. VT (lynchee) night-lynched. Lyncher exits the game.
D3: Skipped.
N3: 3VT/4M. VT night-lynched.
D4: 2VT/2M. Town Endgamed.
Or something like that.

D1: 7VT/2M/1L. VT lynched.
N1: 6VT/4M/2L. (lynchee) night-lynched. Lyncher exits the game.
D2: Skipped.
N2: 5VT/4M. VT night-lynched.
Yeah so the problem here is that it's very possibly Day 2 LYLO. So: Make it 13p?

[Whiskers]

What do you do in the case of several players having the same number of votes?

I was thinking depending on number of players, Mafia or Town win a tie-- meaning that earlier in the game if the mafia is on a Nightwagon, they win out over the town, but as town numbers dwindle, a tie results in town's choice, not mafia's.
Still not great.
And yes, the Night-only lyncher looks bad to me right now, too. She has to: Not get killed; have her target lynched at night; not have her target lynched during the day. Also, the phase-skipping part of the role is too swingy imo.

Can somebody else think of a way to keep town from intentionally voting in a huge cluster, or from deciding who to nightkill beforehand?

I think what I'm remembering was a game where ALL of the votes occurred at night,

alongside

(?) a nightkill, and town all claimed who they would vote for. But I want Daylynches and night-voting to

replace

the nightkill, withOUT agreeing who to night-lynch.

The othe rthing about that game is that it revealed the night-vote-count; I want to keep them hidden.

[Whiskers]

Hm... What if, in Kdub's setup, the mafia could NK their own core, thus avoiding losing the game? Would that be a needless addition?

It is rare enough for mafia to want to NK one of their own members (rather than lynch them for towncred, etc) that I have never seen it done.

[Whiskers]

Hm... What if, in Kdub's setup, the mafia could NK their own core, thus avoiding losing the game? Would that be a needless addition?

Floating an idea based on one of the scumteams from my last theme game.

Apocalypse

10 VTs
3 mafia - 2 goons, 1 core

One of the mafia is designated as the "core". If the core dies, the mafia instantly lose. The idea is that it's unlikely that the core will be lynched before the other goons just because they will work to protect him, but those interactions will eventually make it easier to find the core. The exact number of VTs can be adjusted to find the optimal balance.

I like the idea. I think Mafia should definitely be able to choose the core pregame; if they do, I'd expect the game to be approximately balanced with the numbers given (using White Flag, which automatically makes the second lynched Mafia a core, as the guideline).

Oh, and I like "Mafia Secretary" as a name for the core (it's more unique than "Vengeful-style Godfather", the most common name for it); the role would specifically be "Mafia loses if this role is

lynched

", which comes to the same thing in your setup (and fits the aim behind your role better, in games without vigs). The idea is that they look after the Mafia's membership list, so if the town lynch them, they immediately learn the rest of the scumteam and endgame them.

On the other hand, if you use CFJ's flavour, you could nightkill your own Sec and lose your nighttalk, because only teh Sec had the list and could call everybody together!

[Whiskers]

That seems a part of the design - i.e. this sort of thing would surely have came from good town play?

On the other hoof, this. There shouldn't be a part where mafia should need to kill their own Core.

[Whiskers]

Mafia NOT nightkilling has been a huge problem for town in games I've been in where it has occured. You get, "did doc protect? did mafia NK? did JK block? did JK protect? Maybe there was no mafia and the mod is just fucking with us?!" or in this case, "did mafia switch the core?"
Also, when mafia has infinite swaps, you suddenly have to be able to find ALL of the mafia because if one player is starting to fail, you just switch the core that night and bus the partner for lots & lots of $towncred$.


Med's towncore looks bad to me because you get a follow-the core scenario-- well. kinda. You have a confirmed town and the doc protects forever while the mafia Dochunts. That's no fun imo. Also, core claims after she loses her bulletproof, but what do you do in the case of a CC? lynch between them and hope you're right? Doc one of them and hope you're right?

But, what about one where the town core

changes

every so often? Like, town can vote to re-roll the core X days, Or maybe it changes EVERY day and Mafia is told who the core is at the start of every day? That way they can't kill it, but have to try to lynch it.

[Whiskers]

Still, optimal play is for N1, mafia vanillaizes one of themselves, N2, the other one. Town wins with all VTs, a Cop, and maybe a doctor or two.

[Whiskers]

Just make it mountainous. Players gain PRs after they become dead, but not before.

If it gets through, I'll run one with Necromancers as the heroes and Zombies as the spirits.

[Whiskers]

Maybe a game-modifier. Like, take an already-open setup, run it as a Spirits version.

[Whiskers]

Um... still doesn't make that much sense to investigate. Why investigate when you can just kill?

[Whiskers]

Oh-- right. k.

[Whiskers]

Yeah, doesn't that make it even more townsided? Instead of being two PRs and only one of them is useful, you have two PRs and as few as one of them or as many as two of them are useful.
It would be wholly more interesting to have Fire/Ice lynchers: The "Pharmacist" (Fire Lyncher) wants to lynch the "Mafia Doctor" (Fire mafia). The other does the other. Make it always have one Fire, one Ice mafia member, add in about a hundred more VTs, play. Here, let me set that out for you in a nicer format:

Mafia:

Red Goon
Blue Goon

Town:

Red Lyncher (Wins if, and only if, the Red Goon is lynched. Exits the game upon winning.)
Blue Lyncher (Wins if, and only if, the Blue Goon is lynched. Exits the game upon winning.)
VT (9)
___

The question is, do we give the lynchers investigative powers? Maybe just confirm them to each other? Or nothing?

[Whiskers]

Ah, right. Yeah, there has to be some way for the town to win, but the lynchers to lose.
My bad, my bad.

[Whiskers]

Oh! What if they get cop powers for the opposite one? Like, Red Lyncher knows who Blue Goon is, so they steer lynches away from them? In THAT case, it would be a race to see who gets lynched first.

[Whiskers]

It's just very kingmakery. It's not fun to play as a VT in that setup. One (or in this case, two) player(s) are superhero-gods and everyone else is normal. It gives one (or in this case, two) person(s) a huge amount of power and town really can't do anything. It's based entirely around the Hunter role, and the whole game depends on him (them).

Like, what if PMysterious, or RapidCanyon, got into that game as VTs? What are they going to do? If they look bad, Hunters will shoot them, losing the game for the whole town.
It's just not fun.
Or at least, I wouldn't play it.

[Whiskers]

And what if one of those players drew Hunter? "YOU MUST HATE JIGGLYPUFF! *PEW*!" and "I'M SO CAUGHT UP IN MY OWN READS THAT I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING ELSE! *PEW!*"

And-- okay, what if town

won

, even? It wouldn't

feel

like a win, because I, the VT, wholly dependant on the Hunters to shoot correctly, don't play any real part in winning the game and don't feel rewarded when town wins.
Same with mafia. I imagine mafia playing this setup cowering in a corner and hoping the Hunters don't shoot them. If they win, it's not because they're clever or smart or lucky, it's because the Hunters shot wrong.

[Whiskers]

So: Day 1: Lynch VT. 3 Mafia, 2 Hunters, 3 VTs.
Day 2: Shoot VT. 3 Mafia, 1 Hunter, 2 VTs.
Scum wins, because it outnumbers Townies?

Or, continuing that day,
Day 2: Shoot Mafia. 2 Mafia, 2 VTs.
Then... Lynch Mafia, 1/2, or lynch VT, 2/1.
What is the mafia wincondition? Because like this, it has to completely eliminate the town.

[Whiskers]

OK. I wasn't sure because they don't have a factional kill. I guess having 50% or more means they have the votes, though.

Eh.

still

the game is won or lost at the hands of the hunters. It's really beneficial for the first lynch to be a mislynch, because they have a better shot at hitting the mafia.
Yes, now mafia doesn't have to worry about being completely eradicated by Hunters, but they're a lot stronger (for example, Day 1-or-2 LyLo, depending on when the Hunters shoot; If a hunter shoots a VT Day 1, it's LyLo. If both hunters shoot VTs Day 1, it's game over).

You want it to be more balanced? Make the VTs not feel like they got fucked? Here's your setup.

More Pressure

3 Mafiosi

2 Hunters

8

Townies

Notes:
Nightless, compulsive lynch.
Scum have daytalk.
Hunters' identities are announced by the mod at the beginning of the game.
Hunters have one shot daykill and no vote. Daykill does NOT end the day.
Hunters win if they hit scum with their shot. They lose if they hit town.
Hunters exit the game upon using their shot.

Although personally, I'd only have ONE superhero-god role.

[Whiskers]

Don't underestimate the power the dayvig has to screw scum over, though.

Don't underestimate the power the dayvig has to screw

the power the dayvig has

Power. Dayvig.

Remember: You're trying to make this setup really fun for one (or two) people to play.
How would you feel about giving the Mafia a gunsmith, in that 8-VT game?
Like:
Not Nightless
Vigs Not Bullet Proof (Maybe 1-shot Vest)
Vigs Not announced at gamestart (maybe announced to each other)
This actually makes everything a lot

less

Hunter-sided, so maybe DON'T include a mafia gunsmith after all.
Oh-- and Mafia compulsive kill, if you want. That way, you can't No-Kill to make it look like you hit a Vig.

[Whiskers]

Alternatively, you could try to balance it with more power roles on either side-- more common ones, like a cop or something. I didn't go that route because the Hunter was the main focus and I figured you'd feel cheated if he wasn't the only PR.
Since you feel cheated anyway, what about something like this:

3Mafia
2Hunter (Bulletproof, Oneshot Dayvigs, Exit the game after shooting. Shoot mafia, win. Shoot town, lose.)
5VTs
2Docs (Oneshot Day Docs; protect one target for one entire day from all Hunter shots)

I guess the problem there is that there's a big benefit to docs claiming. Okay-- 6 VTs, 1 Doc. Problem solved.

How do you like that?

[Whiskers]

Hm, that would be interesting. Would they still be told who the other Hunter is? So it would be like, a Lyncher and a Bounty Hunter?

Actually, that

wouldn't

work currently: Hunters exit the game when they shoot.
But maybe we could change that.

A Hunter wins when both these conditions are met:
--He kills a mafia member with his 1-shot vig.
--The other Hunter is lynched.

Actually, that makes it really really hard to win as a Hunter. The obvious problem is if you shoot a mafia member, but don't lynch the other Hunter, but what if you get the other hunter lynched (hard to do in the first place-- he claims, "I'm a hunter!" and so doesn't get lynched), but you shoot the wrong player? Remember, Hunters only get one shot.

[Whiskers]

Fuck it: Just make opposing Lynchers. I've wanted that setup for forever.

[Whiskers]

What? Why are lynchers not fun to play with?
Ofc, I also like to have jester-games. When I draw a jester (on EM, so take it with a grain of salt), I play like I always do-- thoughtfully and slow. Sometimes I win as a townsided fool, but usually the mafia is looking for the fool to joint-win with (by lynching the last townie), and they lynch me, the most pro-town looking player, by mistake. I walk off with the only win in the game.

Seems to me a Lyncher is just like an easier mafia, in that they have ulterior motives. It's easier because they don't have anyone they want to protect, only a target.
Ofc, they also can't just lynch ANYONE outside their group-- they have to have their target to win. And they don't have scumbuddies to back them up.

Still, I like playing the lone wolf and the predator. I like to fool people, and I like to stay alive. I want more 3rd-party non-killing roles!

[Whiskers]

The Knower role could become a mechanic that is something like, "Everynight, choose a living player. If you die during the night, that player's role is revealed."

If you keep it as a ONE-PERSON knower, then I think it would be cool to have Cops who detect knower-ism, instead of mafia.

Or, like, the Knower is a hidden role attached to a townie, and upon her death (killed or lynched) she picks # players to learn and reveal the alignments of.
The Cop's job is to find the Knower and out and lynch it, so town can influence the choice.
Mafia should also know the Knower, Cult should not (because then they can recruit her and that's really powerful).
Or maybe Cult

should

know. Does the cult have a factional kill?

[Whiskers]

I can imagine!

[Whiskers]

Lose the survivor, survivor is a terrible role that should never be used in anything

Stop that. I love the survivor and would take it over a serial killer any day.

[Whiskers]

and is just a serial killer without a kill. How is that fun?

I think you just answered your own question.

How does it make kingmaker scenarios? You mean like, lylo, +survivor?

[Whiskers]

Actually, that's already a LOT of unique PRs-- like, everybody pick one and claim it, and then it's an EpicMafia game.

Also, why does the GF have a modspeak ability? (In addition to not seeing the need of putting it in in the first place, how would the GF be able use it?)

[Whiskers]

Would be more fun to make different breeds of JOAT (

Type 1

: Cop, Watcher, Vig;

Type 2

: Tracker, Roleblocker;

Type 3

: Jailkeeper, Hider;

Type 4

: Doc, Bodyguard). Randomize how many of each Jack, OR give them probabilities again-- although much higher ones.


Then again: guys, the idea is that it potentially gives town more power than 9p Mountainous. Even if most of the abilities don't work, the point is that they have better chance, but not much better.

Still, might just be more fun to have a bunch of night 0 cops and throw a naive or two in there (that flip hidden).

[Whiskers]

How is 9p micro? I thought micro games were like, 7p at

most

.
because 7p is pretty much the minimum for a mini.
How do classifications work again?

[Whiskers]

So what about my 1p game setup? Where does that fall?

[Whiskers]

Well, it was my Sad Fool mafia setup, where there's 1 voteless fool.

But it got me thinking, what if you have a 1p game the Conspiracy setup-- it'd go something like, "Am I really a schizophrenic psychopath by night!?" and you have to decide whether or not to shoot yourself.

[Whiskers]

IT'S BALANCED BECAUSE 50/50 EV!

[Whiskers]

5p: 2 Masons, 1 Jester, 2 Mafia.

Mafia wins if they are 50% of the town. Jester doesn't win if his lynch results in a mafia win (only town win or deadlock).
How does that look?

[Whiskers]

5p: 2 Masons, 1 Jester, 2 Mafia.

Mafia wins if they are 50% of the town. Jester doesn't win if his lynch results in a mafia win (only town win or deadlock).
How does that look?

This sounds jollly fun.
I might look into it a bit more and perhaps run it as Micro.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. My other proposed jester setups have resulted in allergic reactions.

[Whiskers]

I think 7p is an open but Hoopla doesn't let you run your own setups the first (few?) time(s?) around.

[Whiskers]

I've been wanting a lyncher/jester scene for EVER.
Ofc, I want a full sized one.

[Whiskers]

@T-Bone: That's not Mafia.

The fuck? How is that not mafia?

[Whiskers]

It isn't. The Lyncher can't possibly vote for the Jester, because if he does the Jester will self-hammer and the Lyncher will lose. Thus, the Lyncher can only vote for the Townie. Knowing this, the Jester can't vote for anyone else; if he votes for the Townie, the Lyncher will hammer and the Jester will lose; if he votes for the Lyncher, the Townie will deduce that the Lyncher didn't make the vote, so learn the Jester's identity (and in general everyone will learn everyone else's identity), making it impossible for the Jester to win. Finally, the Townie cannot get the Lyncher lynched because the Jester won't hammer anyone other than himself, and the Jester won't vote first (we just established that), and as such the best the Townie can do is no-lynch. Conclusion: nobody can be lynched. Further conclusion: that game isn't going anywhere.

You missed the part where there are three VTs and no self-voting?

[EDIT]
And where the lyncher's goal is to lynch the jester, so of course the Lyncher

would

lynch the jester?

[Whiskers]

Did we get more setups with Mimes yet?

[Whiskers]

Aah, epicmafia...

[Whiskers]

If he is lynched day 1, no night occurs.

^

The "he" is the mafia suicidal goon

Lynching him day one gets town an extra mislynch.

Gonna go ahead and say, that sucks for whoever draws this role. In fact... why include it at all? Day 1 is least likely to result in an informed lynch, and the player dies anyway. Optimal play for this role is to just not talk-- ever. No association, no tells, no reads.

A better, more fun setup would be

Revengy Something

10 Players:

3 Mafia Goons

7 Vanilla Townies

Mafia faction only gets a Kill if a Goon was lynched the previous Day.
Not-Nightless, or Nightless and Enforced Lynching.
Mafia Daytalk.

Of course, Hotline Mafia might be OK, since it's such a small setup that why would anybody even play a six player game...

[EDIT]
And looking at Scumhunter's_Speed_8p, I've basically made that, except without the stupid white flag mechanic which I hate, and making the game a little longer. So... an improvement, IMO, but not enough of one to make a whole new setup for it. So nevermind.

Still, I wouldn't want to play Hotline Mafia. Being kicked out of the game for setup factors (instead of being chosen for lynch or nightkill, due to my play or meta) would really suck. It would take all of the fun out of it for me. Like, "Nothing you do can affect whether or not you die."

Idk. Maybe some people would like this, but I just plain wouldn't sign up for it.

[Whiskers]

Scalpel 13

3 Macho Mafia Goons

1 Doc SK

9 Vanilla Townies

Macho Mafia Goons:

Factional Night Talk
Factional Nightkill
Immune to Doctoring
Win when they are Majority.

Doctor Serial Killer:

Night-Doctoring
Nightkill
Can't Doc the same player consecutive Nights
Wins when the last man standing.

How does this look?

[Whiskers]

Zombi 9

1 Goon
1 Zombie

1 Landmine
6 Townies

Zombie

is a lynchproof mafia goon. When it targets a player with Nightkill, the Zombie dies instead and the target becomes the new zombie.

Landmine

is a bulletproof cop/vig/bomb/lyncher thing that kills its target and dies, only when its target is the Zombie.

Discuss.

[Whiskers]

In regards to your setup, why would you use your Doctor power as the Serial Killer?

And town seems pretty boned.

SK has the doc just to fuck with people-- also wanted to give them the ability to only kill Mafia, if they want, by Doc'ing and SK'ing the same player. If Mafia, the kill goes through. If Town, Doc functions.

Maybe make it a Doc Vig instead? But that gives an awful lot of power to one role.

Gonna go ahead and say, that sucks for whoever draws this role. In fact... why include it at all? Day 1 is least likely to result in an informed lynch, and the player dies anyway. Optimal play for this role is to just not talk-- ever. No association, no tells, no reads.

If you do that, you get lynched and you fuck over your buddy because town has two chances instead of one to catch him. Why is that optimal?

Except, no. I mean, ok, there's a chance of that. But somebody will talk people out of lynch all lurkers. Or maybe the Sui. talks

some

. I know what I said, but if I were in that role (and didn't lose the motivation to play altogether), I'd set up some nice ties to a nice townie, with a little WIFOM vs my partner.
But uh, yeah. I wouldn't say that, even if you lurk almost completely, you're in too much danger of being lynched. Unless the site meta has changed significantly while I was away.

Your setup removes the entire point of mine, the mafia have to try to set themselves up for a successful LYLO. So they both want to survive, and they don't want to look bad once the suicidal one dies.

I'm sorry, "Both"? Your setup only has one other Goon. So "the

other one

doesn't want to look bad."
My setup is just playing with a different mechanic, kind of. I thought it would be more fun than "sorry, you got the short straw."
:\
But I guess I still don't understand the appeal of such small games.

There is also a lack of 6P setups, hence mine. Making it 10p goes against my original goal.[/quote]